226. 指环王

你知道，当上帝说‘要有光’时，这正是亚伯拉罕被吩咐要献祭以撒却最终被阻止的那一天。

You know, when God says let there be light, it's the it's the date that, Abraham is supposed to have been told to sacrifice Isaac and is prevented from doing it.

这正是基督在童女腹中受孕的那一天。

It's the date that, Christ is conceived in the virgin's womb.

这正是他受难死亡的日子，3月25日。

It's the date that he suffers death, March 25.

我认为，这明确地表明了托尔金的意图。

That is that is a very clear signal, I think, as to what Tolkien is doing.

他试图保留这种——我的意思是，《指环王》和托尔金的奇特之处在于，某种程度上，他确实相信《指环王》的故事情节真的发生过。

He's trying to kind of preserve the, you know, this I mean, what's what's odd about Lord of the Rings and what's odd about Tolkien is that in some sense, he clearly believes that the plot of Lord of the Rings really happened.

某种程度上，精灵、矮人等所有生物确实曾经存在过。

That in some sense, elves and dwarves and everybody did kind of exist.

在这一点上，我认为他正是这样看待的。

And to that extent, I think he sees it.

因此，基督教作家们有一种观点，称之为‘福音的预备’，即异教徒在某种意义上早已预感到了即将到来的基督教故事，并对此有所预示。

So Christian writers had this idea that what they called a a preparatio, a vangelium, a kind of a that that pagans were in some sense aware of what was to come, the Christian story that was to come, and there are foreshadowings of it.

我认为这就是托尔金在《指环王》中所做的事情。

And I think that that that is what Tolkien is doing in Lord of the Rings.

《指环王》正是以这种方式发挥作用的。

Lord of the Rings serves in that way.

我认为这种力量确实是解释人们为何有这种感受的强有力理由。

And I think that that that that kind of power is is really is is is a really strong explanation for why people feel it.

这可能不仅仅是在填补英国生活中一个基督教形状的空缺，而是一个具体的天主教形状的空缺。

And it it may be that it's not just filling a kind of Christianity shaped hole in in English life, but specifically Catholic shaped hole.

哦，这个说法可不小。

Oh, that's a big claim sum.

那么，《指环王》讲的是失去。

Well, so so Lord of the Rings is about loss.

是的。

Yeah.

《指环王》中，除了人类，其他所有种族最终都失去了什么。

Every everybody apart from humans, apart from men in Lord of the Rings ends up losing.

他们摧毁了索伦，但作为结果，他们自己也被毁灭了。

They destroy Sauron, but as a result, they themselves are destroyed.

所以精灵、矮人，嗯，矮人将会

So the elves, the dwarves, the Well, the dwarves are gonna

回到他们的地下洞穴去，不是吗？

go off to their to their underground lairs, aren't they?

但即使是霍比特人，他们也都将逐渐消逝。

But even presumably the hobbits, they they they're all going to fade.

因为大家都说，人类的世界，你知道，这是一个新的时代。

Because everybody says the world of men, you know, this is a new age.

中土世界第三纪元那种丰富多彩的文化混合体注定要消亡。

All the sort of the great sort of polycultural mix of the third age of Middle Earth is doomed.

精灵确实永远离开了中土世界，不是吗？

And the elves actually leave Middle Earth for good, don't they?

他们消失去了相当于天堂的地方，我想。

They disappear off into the equivalent of heaven, I suppose.

因此，那里有一种缺失感，这显然在托尔金的层面上，反映了他在战争中失去朋友的失落感。

And so there's a kind of absence there, which clearly for Tolkien on one level is about the sense of loss that he suffered in the war, the loss of his friends.

这关乎一种失落感，你知道，他回到萨里霍尔，却发现那里已经被变成了一个郊区。

It's it's about the, the sense of loss that, you know, he goes to Sarehole and it's been, you know, turned into a suburb.

马修·莱昂斯写了一本精彩绝伦的书。

Well, there's there's there's a fabulous book by Matthew Lyons.

我不知道你有没有读过《往返之路》，他在书中沿着托尔金的足迹进行探索。

I don't know if you read it there and back again where he goes around following in the footsteps of Tolkien.

他指出了一个我之前不知道的观点：关于夏尔未来命运的愿景。

And he had he he points out which I didn't know that there's this vision of what will happen to the Shire.

在最初的草稿中，一座巨大的巧克力工厂被建了起来。

And in the very first draft, this great chocolate factory gets built.

天哪。

Oh my god.

布尔内维尔。

Bourneville.

所以伯恩维尔就在扎雷豪尔附近。

So Bourneville, which is just down the road from, from Zarehall.

因此，显然有一种失落感，你知道，树林被毁掉了，取而代之的是巧克力工厂在运作。

So, obviously, there's this idea that that that's lost, you know, that that the woods get destroyed and you have chocolate factories playing.

为了卡布拉的牛奶巧克力。

For Cabra's dairy milk.

但托尔金是从更广泛的意义上看待这一点的。

But but Tolkien sees this in the broader sense.

所以他曾说：‘我是一名基督徒，事实上是一名罗马天主教徒，因此我不指望历史会有什么别的样子，只能是一场漫长的失败，尽管它包含着，也可能在传说中更清晰、更动人地展现出一些最终胜利的片段或 glimpses。’

So he said, I am a Christian and indeed a Roman Catholic so that I do not expect history to be anything but a long defeat, though it contains and in a legend may contain more clearly and movingly some samples or glimpses of final victory.

所以，只有在新教国家长大的天主教徒，我认为，才可能以这种方式来诠释基督教历史。

So only a Catholic growing up in a Protestant country, I think, could could frame Christian history perhaps in quite that way.

但这呼应了加拉德丽尔的一句著名台词，她是精灵女王，也是我所了解的亚马逊剧集中的主要人物。

But it echoes a very famous line from Galadriel who is the queen of the elves, who is the main figure I gather in the Amazon series.

她说，你知道，她是一位精灵女王，当魔戒被摧毁时，她所有的力量都将消逝，但她仍坚信，摧毁魔戒是赢得胜利的唯一途径。

And she says, you know, she's an elvish queen whose whole power will be destroyed when the ring is destroyed, but who is committed to the idea that that destroying the ring is the only way to win.

因此，她本质上是在为更大的胜利而牺牲自己的力量。

So she is essentially allowing her own power to be destroyed in the cause of a greater victory.

她所表达的正是托尔金的那些话。

And she she echoes exactly that those lines of Tolkien.

她说：‘在世界的漫长岁月里，我们一直奋战在这场漫长的失败中。’

She says, together through the ages of the world, we have fought the long defeat.

嗯，这种‘漫长的失败’的概念，确实很像北欧神话里的想法，对吧？

Well, that idea of the long defeat is quite a Norse myth idea there, isn't it?

他们相信，维京人对世界和他们的命运有一种深刻的宿命感。

They they believe there was a terrible fatalism to the sort of the Viking sense of their world and their

命运，没错。

destiny Absolutely.

就在其中。

Within it.

托尔金对这一点的独特诠释，是将其重新定位为一种天主教的观念。

And the weird spin that Tolkien gives that is to recalibrate it as a Catholic Yeah.

作为一个基督教故事。

As as a Christian story.

而在末日之时，胜利终将到来，一切都将被救赎，一切都将被恢复，一切都将重获生命。

And that at the end, the end of days, victory will be won and everything will be redeemed and everything will be restored and everything will be given back to life.

我的意思是，我认为有趣的是，我同意你的观点，托尔金的天主教信仰对他来说极其重要，他显然觉得这种信仰贯穿了《魔戒》的每一页。

I mean, think the interesting thing about I I agree with you that, Tolkien's Catholicism is tremendously important to him, and and clearly he felt that it was there on every page of the Lord of the Rings.

但有趣的是，读者们常常看不到这一点，对于不认同的读者来说，它远没有他朋友刘易斯的《纳尼亚传奇：狮子、女巫和魔衣橱》中的基督教色彩那么明显。

But it's it's interesting that the readers don't see that often, and it's certainly not as glaring to unsympathetic readers as let's say the Christianity and the Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe, his friend.

我的意思是，人们真的非常反感。

See I mean, people really, really sort of kick against.

我的意思是，我非常喜欢C。

I I mean, I love C.

S。

S.

刘易斯的书，但人们之所以反感，是因为他们觉得那是纯粹的基督教护教作品。

Lewis's books, but people kick against them because they think it's pure Christian apologetics.

但没人会这么说《魔戒》吧？

But nobody really says that about the Lord of the Rings, do they?

他们不会，因为《魔戒》不像《纳尼亚传奇：狮子、女巫和魔衣橱》那样是寓言。

They they don't because it's not an allegory in the way that, The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe is.

它比那要奇怪得多。

It it's much stranger than that.

我认为托尔金的基督教信仰更加奇特，因为它渗透着一种源于他对北方传说着迷的悲观情绪。

And I think that Tolkien's Christianity is much stranger because it's shot through with this this sense of pessimism that derives from his fascination with the with the northern legends.

我认为他还把这种信仰与当代事件的回响融合在一起。

And I think also the way in which he fuses it with echoes of contemporary events.

所以我们谈到了艾略特，T.

So we talked about Elliot, T.

S.

S.

艾略特，是的。

Eliot Yeah.

艾略特在战争期间也担任过空袭警戒员，就像托尔金在闪电战期间一样。

Who was also an air raid warden during the war as Tolkien was during the Blitz.

在《四个四重奏》中，尤其是《小吉丁》里，艾略特回望历史，以理解当下所面临的恐怖，这与托尔金的做法非常相似。

And in the four quartets, so Little Gidding most famously, Elliot is looking back to history to make sense of of of the horrors of the of the present, pretty much in the same way that that Tolkien is.

在那之中，他在一次空袭的 midst 遇见了一位幽灵般的人物。

And in that, he meets with a a kind of ghostly figure in the in the midst of a of an air raid.

随后，艾略特写道：在扭曲的街道上，他留给我一种告别，然后随着号角的吹响渐渐消逝。

And then Eliot writes that in the disfigured street, he left me with a kind of valediction and faded on the blowing of the horn.

这让人联想到空袭之后的黎明。

And this kind of conjures up the dawn after an air raid.

在《指环王》中，有一个非常著名的场景：甘道夫正面对着戒灵之王，后者骑着一只似翼龙的生物。

And in lord of the rings, you get this very, very famous moment where Gandalf is confronting the lord of the Nazgul, the witch king on his pterodactyl.

这有点像，你知道的，戒灵从天而降，就像德国轰炸机飞过伦敦一样。

So a bit like, you know, the Nazgul has descended a bit like a kind of German bomber over London.

然后，突然间，他们从远处听到了号角狂野地吹响。

And then suddenly they hear in the distance, they hear horns wildly blowing.

这完全是同样的事情。

So it's exactly the same thing.

号角的吹响和号角的吹响结束了空袭。

The blowing of the horn and the blowing of the horn ends the air raid.

黎明来临。

Dawn comes.

光明到来。

Light comes.

洛汗终于到了。

Rohan had come at last.

洛汗终于到了。

Rohan had come at last.

所以《小吉丁》的回响，是的。

So so the echo of Little Gidding Yep.

我认为非常明显。

Is, I think, very clear.

埃利奥特和托尔金都认识这个人，查尔斯·威廉斯，他是一位非常神秘的基督徒，这种类型恰好能吸引埃利奥特和托尔金两人。

And it they so Eliot and Tolkien both knew this guy, Charles Williams, who was a kind of very mystical Christian of the kind that would exactly appeal to both Elliott and Tolkien.

我在想，会不会有什么，你知道的，我不确定是不是有这样的东西。

And I wonder if there's some, you know I don't know if Something like that.

如果托尔金读过埃利奥特的作品呢？

If Tolkien read Elliott.

但那种空袭警报员的感觉，来自天空的危险，以及它如何被嵌入基督教神话的方式。

But that sense of air raid wardens, of of danger from the sky, of the way in which it gets framed in kind of Christian mythology.

这是一种非常奇特、独一无二的混合，但埃利奥特和托尔金都在这么做。

It's a it's a very, very strange inimitable mix, but both Eliot and Tolkien are doing it.

他们以一种我认为能深刻触动人们的方式在做这件事——这些人可能根本不是基督徒，也可能对这两位作家各自所依赖的神话元素完全不感兴趣。

And they're doing it in a way that I think speaks incredibly profoundly to people who may not be remotely Christian or may not be remotely interested in any of the, any of the kind of the paraphernalia, the mythic paraphernalia that the the two men are respectively drawing on.

无论是在诗歌还是散文中，埃利奥特和托尔金都触及了某种东西，这种东西显然不仅在英国，而且在全球范围内都让人感到无比强大和动人。

Whether in poetry or in prose, Eliot and Tolkien are both kind of onto something that people clearly not just in Britain but around the world find incredibly powerful and moving.

我认为，正是这种基督教神话观念与一种并非完全战胜时代恐怖、却至少能直面它们的意识相结合——你知道，你可以直视它们的面容。

And I think it is that kind of fusion of Christian mythic ideas with a hardly one sense of not exactly victory over the horrors of the of the age, but a sense that they can at least be be faced, that they you you know, you can look into their face.

我认为这就是它的力量所在。

And I think that's the power of it.

在我们开始这个播客之前，我认为《魔戒》怀疑者和《历史的余烬》怀疑者会期待我们讨论三件事。

So before we start this podcast, I think Tolkien skeptics and rest is history skeptics would have expected us to talk about three things.

他们期待看到斯坦利·鲍德温的出现，期待你分析魔多的防空系统，还期待探讨基督教神话思想，而我们在上半部分已经谈了这三样，还加了恐龙。

They'd have expected the appearance of Stanley Baldwin, they'd have expected you to dissect the air defenses of Mordor, and they'd have expected Christian mythic ideas, and we've given them three and dinosaurs in the first half.

所以在下半部分，我认为我们应该稍微谈谈托尔金的政治观点，我觉得这非常有趣。

And so in the second half, I think we should talk a little bit about Tolkien's politics, which I think are really interesting.

我认为《魔戒》是一本政治小说，而且涉及种族问题——当然，亚马逊剧集已经非常明显地试图改变这一点。

I think the Lord of the Rings is a political book and and race because this, of course, is something that the Amazon series has tried to has has very visibly tried to change.

托尔金与种族的关系，对他批评者来说，现在恐怕是指控清单上的头号问题，我们将在广告后讨论这一点。

And that and and Tolkien and his relationship with race is something that for his critics is off is now, I think, probably item number one on the charge sheet, and we will be discussing that after the break.

再见。

Bye bye.

再见。

Bye bye.

大家好，我们有一个令人难以置信的激动人心的消息要告诉大家。

Hello, everyone, and we have some unbelievably exciting news for you all.

汤姆，你这话说得也太谦虚了，这真的太壮观了。

Tom, if anything, you are underselling it because this is truly spectacular.

今年七月，我们将首次在汉普顿宫举办《Rest is History》节。

On the July this year, we are going to be hosting the inaugural rest is history festival, out of all places, Hampton Court Palace.

而且，至关重要的是，这场活动只面向对我们最重要的人——即《Rest is History》俱乐部的会员。

And, crucially, this is just for the people who mean most to us, that is the members of the Rest is History Club.

汤姆，我说得对吧？

Tom, am I right?

你说得太对了，多米尼克。

You are so right, Dominic.

所以，如果你想购买节日门票，就必须成为《Rest is History》俱乐部的会员，这非常简单。

So if you want to access tickets for the festival, then you will need to become a member of the Rest is History Club, which is so easy to do.

你只需要访问 therestishistory.com，几秒钟就能搞定。

All you have to do is go to therestishistory.com, and, I mean, it's a matter of seconds.

好的。

Okay.

所以请记住，成为《Rest is History》俱乐部的会员，您就能参与抽选这场精彩节日的门票。

So remember, by becoming a member of the Rest is History Club, you will be able to enter that much prized ballot for tickets to this thrilling festival.

但当然，除此之外，您还将享受我们所有节目的无广告版本。

But, of course, on top of that, you'll get all our episodes ad free.

您将提前观看我们的史诗级系列节目。

You will get early access to our epic series.

您将获得每周的附加剧集。

You will get weekly bonus episodes.

您将获得我们全新独家迷你剧的观看权限。

You will get access to our exciting new exclusive miniseries.

最重要的是，您将能加入我们深受喜爱的聊天社区，以及更多其他精彩福利。

Most of all, you'll get an entree to our much loved chat community and many more such exciting benefits.

所以如果您

So if you

如果你想确保获得两张门票，可以加入俱乐部的最高等级，成为Athlesan会员。

want guaranteed access to two tickets, you can join the very top tier of the club and become an Athlesan.

你还将获得升级为VIP门票的独家机会，VIP票包含一系列特别福利，包括——这太令人兴奋了——无限量的食物和饮料。

You will also get the exclusive opportunity to upgrade to a VIP ticket, which includes a range of special perks including, and this is so exciting, unlimited food and unlimited drink.

请立即访问restishistory.com注册。

So go to the restishistory.com and sign up immediately.

这将是最非凡的周末。

It is going to be the most extraordinary weekend.

会有演讲。

There'll be talks.

会有令人激动的特别嘉宾。

There will be thrilling special guests.

会有历史主题的音乐。

There will be historically themed music.

还会有很多美味的点心。

There'll be all kinds of treats.

还会有很多精彩的活动。

There'll be all kinds of action.

甚至可能会有一些战斗。

There might even be some battles.

但最重要的是，这将是一个友谊的时刻，让你结识其他会员，并

But above all, it'll be a time for friendship, to get to know your fellow members, and to

在非常特别的地方——汉普顿宫，认识汤姆和我。

get to know Tom and me in a very, very special place, Hampton Court Palace.

我知道，我代表多米尼克和我自己说，我们迫不及待想在那里见到你。

And I know that I speak for Dominic as well as for myself when I say, we cannot wait to see you there.

那是他们生命中最悲伤的时刻之一。

It was one of the saddest hours in their lives.

巨大的烟囱在他们面前升起。

The great chimney rose up before them.

当他们靠近水对岸的旧村庄时，穿过道路两侧一排排简陋的新房子，他们看到了那座新工厂，它阴森而肮脏，一座巨大的砖砌建筑横跨溪流，排放出冒着蒸汽、散发着恶臭的废水。

And as they drew near the old village across the water, through rows of new mean houses along each side of the road, they saw the new mill in all its frowning and dirty ugliness, a great brick building straddling the stream, which it fouled with a steaming and stinking outflow.

沿着比水路，每一棵树都被砍倒了。

All along the Bywater Road, every tree had been felled.

这段出自《魔戒》中名为‘夏尔的清扫’的一章，描述了霍比特人完成伟大使命后返回夏尔，却发现这片爱德华时代的乡村英格兰已面目全非，而多米尼克就在其中。

That is from a chapter called the Scouring of the Shire in Lord of the Rings, and it describes the return of the hobbits from their great quest back to the Shire, this vision of Edwardian rural England to discover Dominic.

房地产开发商已经动工了。

The house builders have been at work.

有一些开发商已经介入了。

There are a little Developers have been in.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

That's right.

对。

Yes.

所以现在这是这一章。

So this is the now this is chapter.

这是书中最后几章之一。

This is one of the last chapters of the book.

它几乎完全缺失了。

It's it's almost entirely missing.

由于电影导演彼得·杰克逊表示他不知道该如何处理这一部分，觉得它显得突兀，所以电影版本中几乎完全删掉了。

Well, pretty much entirely missing from the film versions because the director of the films Peter Jackson said that he didn't really know what know what to do with it and he felt it was jarring.

我认为他做出这样的选择非常有意思。

And I think that's such an interesting choice that he made.

但我认为这是个错误的决定，因为对我来说，这正是书中将它提升至超越托尔金自幼便构思的维多利亚时代高奇幻冒险模式的关键元素之一。

I think it's the wrong choice because to me, this is one of the elements of the book that clearly lifts it above the the high Victorian fantasy adventure quest model that Tolkien had clearly had in mind somehow since he was a boy.

所以，托尔金的批评者常说的是，这只是一则陈腐的儿童故事，讲述善与恶的对抗。

So again, one of the common things that Tolkien's critics say is, well, it's just a sort of trite childish story of good versus evil.

坏人被击败了。

The the baddies are defeated.

正义取得了胜利。

Good triumphs.

万岁。

Hurrah.

万岁。

Hurrah.

而这适合婴幼儿和青少年。

And this is, you know, fit for for infants and adolescents.

我认为这一章完全揭示了这一点。

I think this chapter completely gives the light of that.

所以显然，在某种程度上，这里涉及第一次世界大战的背景。

So clearly, at some level, there's an there's a first world war thing going on here.

众所周知，大卫·劳合·乔治——尽管不是历史上的正面人物——曾承诺英国士兵们将回到适合英雄的家园。

So famously, David Lloyd George, not a friend of the rest of history, had promised British Britain servicemen that they would return to homes fit for heroes.

但实际上，他们回到的是一个灰暗而悲惨的十年——英国的1920年代，完全不是所谓的‘咆哮的二十年代’，而是一个高失业率、无家可归、伤残士兵在街角乞讨的时代。

And actually, returned to a very gray miserable decade, the nineteen twenties in Britain, not the roaring 20s at all, an age of high unemployment and homelessness and injured servicemen begging on street corners and so on and so forth.

所以，我认为这其中确实包含着这样的元素。

So there's an element of that about it, think.

返乡老兵，我的意思是，这有点像20世纪70年代越战老兵回到美国的情况。

The returning veteran, I mean, it's a bit like Vietnam veterans returning in the 1970s to America.

那位返乡老兵，感觉非常沮丧。

The returning veteran who who sort of feels miserable.

但我也认为，这绝对触及了托尔金政治、宗教和文化愿景的核心。

But also, I mean, I think this absolutely cuts to the heart of Tolkien's political and religious and kind of cultural vision.

正如你所说，汤姆，没有最终的胜利。

That as you said, Tom, there is no final victory.

他们回到家后发现，自己珍视的那片英格兰，在一种极其平凡而单调的方式中已经改变了。

That they return home to find that in a very banal and humdrum way, their cherished bit of England as it were, has changed.

它变得更加现代化了。

It has become more modern.

它变得更加工业化了。

It's become more industrial.

正如你那段精彩描述中提到的，到处都是烟囱和工厂。

There are as you as you described in that brilliant passage, there are chimneys and factories.

换句话说，萨里霍尔已经变成了伯明翰，是的。

So in other words, Sarehole has become Birmingham Yeah.

在这个情境中。

In the scenario.

已经进驻了。

Has moved in.

对。

Right.

雀巢制造商已经在此设厂。

The the Cadbury's manufacturers have set up shop.

但同时，显然还存在一个意识形态和政治层面。

But also, think there are clearly an obviously ideological political dimension.

杰拉尔德·托尔金非常保守。

Gerald Tolkien was very conservative.

我的意思是，他保守得离谱。

I mean, was insanely conservative.

既然他一定投过票，因为大多数人都会投票，我想他会把这视为一种公民责任。

Insofar as, you know, he must have voted because most people did vote, I imagine he would have seen it as a civic duty.

我觉得几乎无法想象他会投给其他任何政党，我想他会不情愿地投给保守党。

I think it's almost impossible to imagine him voting anything other than he would have voted, I think, grudgingly for the conservatives.

但我的意思是，多米尼克，斯坦利·鲍德温不是个伟大的建设者吗？

But I mean, Dominic, Stanley Baldwin's great was a great builder, wasn't he?

伟大的房屋建设者。

Great house builder.

但斯坦利·鲍德温当然从未进行过任何探索。

But Stanley Baldwin, of course, never went on a quest.

我觉得这就是问题所在。

I think this is the issue.

是的。

Yeah.

天啊，我想是的。

God, I suppose.

所以，斯坦利·鲍德温是第一章里的比尔博，但不是后续章节里的。

So so so Stanley Baldwin is Bilbo in chapter one but not subsequent chapters.

但你知道，他们回来了，看到这些房子一栋栋建起来。

But he's you know, they're coming back and they're they're seeing all these houses being built.

但他们不喜欢这些房子。

Well, don't like the houses.

他们不喜欢这些房子。

They don't like the houses.

但我觉得，很多情况下，《夏尔平乱》这一章是写出来的。

But I think a lot I mean, so the scouring of the Shire is written.

这一章我认为是在第二次世界大战结束后写的。

That chapter is written, I think, after the end of the second world war.

是在艾德礼政府时期吗？

So under the Attlee government?

在艾德礼政府时期。

Under the Attlee government.

现在，有些人说托尔金强烈抵制任何关于他的作品具有某种寓言意义的主张。

Now some people Tolkien bitterly resisted any claims that there was any kind of allegory.

他说：我不喜欢寓言。

He said, I don't like allegories.

《魔戒》并不是一部寓言。

The Lord of the Rings is not an allegory.

而且我认为它本意也不是对艾德礼政府的寓言。

And I think it's not meant to be an allegory for the Atli government.

但就像20世纪30年代的氛围一样，很难相信20世纪40年代末的新闻头条和文化讨论没有影响他的创作。

But as with the climate of the nineteen thirties, it's hard to believe that the headlines and the sort of the cultural conversation in the late nineteen forties didn't influence what he's writing.

举几个例子，夏尔现在由一位首领统治，他派出收集者和分配者四处巡视，据我们所知，他们统计、测量并把东西运走储存，以至于农民再也见不到自己的产品了。

So to give you some examples, the Shire is now under the command of a chief who sends out gatherers and sharers who go around, we're told, counting and measuring and taking things off to storage so that the farmers don't see their own products again.

酒馆都被关闭了，因为首领不赞成喝啤酒。

The inns have been closed because the chief doesn't hold with beer.

我的意思是，这非常像20世纪初保守派的抱怨：那些好心的自由派和爱管闲事的工党政客正在关闭所有酒吧。

I mean, that stands very much like a kind of early twentieth century conservatives complaint that that do gooding liberals and interfering bossy labor politicians are closing all the pubs.

而且在书中，当局招募了数百名警察。

And the authorities have recruited hundreds of policemen in the book.

他们被称为治安官，据说喜欢管闲事，夸夸其谈。

They're called sheriffs who we're told like minding other folks business and talking big.

如果我们这些小人物挺身维护自己的权利，他们就会把我们抓进地牢、监狱之类的地方。

And if any of us small folks stand up for our rights, they drag him off to the lock holes, to the prison and so on.

所有这些都描绘了一个充满监控、配给制、干预和大政府的世界，人们建造着议会住房，呈现出一种反保守派政府的氛围。

So all of this is, it's a portrait of a world in which of surveillance, of ration books, of interference, of big government, of people building council houses, of a sort of an an of an anti conservative administration.

不过，再次强调，我不认为托尔金是故意以此攻击艾德礼政府。

Now, again, I don't think Tolkien means it deliberately as an attack on the Atlee government.

我不认为他会做出如此简单化的事情。

I don't think he would do anything so simplistic.

但我认为，他曾经把自己描述为一种保守的无政府主义者，这种说法确实有道理。

But I think there is a sense in which this is he described himself once as a as a sort of conservative anarchist.

我认为这正是这本书所体现的。

And I think that's exactly what this is.

这就是，你知道的，别管我们。

This is, you know, leave us alone.

别干涉。

Don't interfere.

但我觉得，这种悲观和阴郁也是存在的，因为人们一直认为霍比特人是英格兰精神和善良、坚毅的英格兰性格的化身。

But it's also, I think that pessimism, that gloom, you know, because we've been led to believe that the hobbits are the incarnation of Englishness and of good heart, stout hearted Englishness.

然而事实却是，许多霍比特人乐于与新政权合作。

And yet it turns out lots of them are happy to collaborate with the new regime.

许多人乐于告密。

Lots of them are happy to inform.

我们被告知，他们已经丧失了抗争的意志，蜷缩在自己的家中。

We're told that they have lost the will to fight, that they've shrunk inside their own homes.

所以这一切非常压抑。

So it's very down.

非常灰暗。

It's very gray.

这非常阴郁。

It's very down.

但你可以理解为什么彼得·杰克逊不想把它放进他的好莱坞电影里。

But you can understand why Peter Jackson didn't want to put it in his Hollywood movies.

但我觉得，他根本没有意识到托尔金想表达的是什么。

But I think the fact that he didn't suggest to me that he misunderstood what Tolkien was trying to achieve.

我的意思是，它只是短暂地出现，仿佛瞥见了

I mean, it it appears very fleetingly as a kind of glimpse of

未来。

the future.

但在那个未来中，据我回忆，做这些事的是半兽人，而不是霍比特人转变了立场。

But in the but in that future, as I remember, it's the Orcs who are doing it and not the not the Hobbits switches.

因为关键在于，正是霍比特人自己在新政权下承担了大部分的肮脏工作。

Because the point is it's the Hobbits themselves that are doing most of the heavy lifting in this sort of new regime.

所以，当你说托尔金是保守派时，我认为这并不能充分表达他的立场。

So, I mean, when you say that Tolkien is conservative, I mean, I don't think that adequately expresses.

我的意思是，比如他对民主就不是个支持者。

I mean, he's he's not an enthusiast of for democracy, for instance.

因为他对王权有着种种执着。

Because of all his obsession with kingship, for example.

他实际上是支持一种神圣王权的。

He he's I mean, he's literally in favor of a sacral kingship.

所以阿拉贡在《指环王》里就成了这样一位亚瑟王式的人物。

I I and so this is what Aragorn becomes, this kind of King Arthur figure in Lord of the Rings.

这基本上就是托尔金的主张。

This is basically Tolkien's

什么？

what

你知道，他真心认为应该有一个带着魔法剑的真正国王，是的。

you know, that there should genuinely be some king with a magic sword that will Yeah.

你知道的，一切都会由持魔法剑的希拉萨国王来解决。

You know, everything will be Hiratha, the king with the magic sword.

而且我认为，他某种程度上相信这一点，就像他相信精灵曾经真的漫步在英格兰的绿色大地上一样。

And I think he kind of believes that in the same way that he thinks the elves once really walked, you know, England's green and

宜人的土地。

pleasant land.

你的意思是，他并不相信这一点？

He doesn't he doesn't believe it, you mean?

他既相信又不相信。

He does and he doesn't believe it.

但我的意思是，显然他极其、极其不属于左派。

But but, I mean, clearly, he I mean, he is massively, massively not of the left.

他太守旧了，以至于他心目中理想政府的形式，基本上就是1637年那样的。

He's I mean, he's so reactionary that basically his his vision of the ideal form of government, you know, is six three seven or something.

但我觉得，我读到的那段关于树木被砍伐为房屋让路的文字，另一个层面是在提醒我们：在20世纪的大部分时间里，我们现在称之为环保运动的东西有多么保守。

So but I think I think that another aspect of of of that passage that I read where the trees are chopped down to make ways for houses is it's it's a reminder of just how conservative what we would now call the green movement was for most of the twentieth century.

所以如今，总的来说，环保议题主要与左派联系在一起。

So so today, by and large, green causes are associated with the left.

是的。

Yes.

所以有一种说法叫‘西瓜’，这是右翼人士对你的指控：表面上是绿色的，内心却是红色的。

So there's the kind of the watermelon is the it's it's the accusation from people on the right that you're you're green on the on the surface and red in in the heart.

纯粹的

Pure as

深处是红色的。

red deep down now.

实际上，《指环王》作为一部二十世纪的小说，其伟大之处在于托尔金对环境未来走向的忧虑远远走在了时代前面。

Actually, one of the many ways in which Lord of the Rings is very very much the novel of the twentieth century is that Tolkien is way ahead of anxieties about where the environment is going.

他对工业革命的反对，程度上几乎是彻底的。

His association To to the degree that basically he's against the industrial revolution.

我的意思是，全面的。

I mean, wholesale.

对。

Yeah.

如今左翼有很多激进的环保主义者，他们会说，整个问题就在于工业文明和资本主义。

Lots of kind of radical greed you know, radical greens on the left today would be who would say, you know, it's it's the whole problem is industrial civilization and capitalism.

我们需要彻底抛弃它。

We need to get rid of it.

我的意思是，托尔金会完全同意，但他的解决方案是我们回归一种共同体式的生活方式。

I mean, Tolkien would wholeheartedly agree, but his solution would be that we go back and have a kind of communitarian, existence.

我们回到过去，拥有一位手持魔法剑的国王。

We go back and we have a king with a magic sword.

但基本上

But basically

是的。

Yeah.

恢复封建制度。

Bring back the feudal system.

托尔金在《指环王》中一再强调，工业、对树木的破坏。

His you know, again and again and again throughout lord of the rings, industry, the destruction of trees.

他热爱树木，带着一种神秘的情感。

He loves trees with, again, a kind of mystical sense.

那位巫师，我这里要剧透了，其实是洗劫夏尔背后的主谋。

The wizard who is again, I'm giving away spoilers here, but who turns out to be behind the scouring of the Shire.

他痴迷于科技。

He's he's obsessed with technology.

他摧毁树木。

He destroys trees.

他焚烧树木。

He burns them.

他把原本清澈流淌的河流变成了泥浆池。

He he turns what had previously been clean flowing rivers into slurry tips.

它们非常像现在的水务公司。

They're very like the water companies at the moment.

我们被告知，他热爱车轮和各种装置。

We're told he loves wheels and contraptions and all these kinds of things.

但同样，这也预示了现代的焦虑。

But also again, a a very kind of, a prefiguring of modern anxieties.

他培育出一种令人恐惧的怪物种族。

He breeds this kind of terrifying race of monsters.

他实际上在进行我们如今称之为遗传学的实验，尽管当时遗传学尚未发展起来。

He's he's kind of experimenting with what we would now call genetics, suppose, even though genetics hadn't been developed at that point.

因此，他是一个如此矛盾的人物，如此守旧。

So he's such a paradoxical figure that he's so reactionary.

他如此守旧，但在许多方面又如此进步。

He's so reactionary and yet in so many ways he's so progressive.

这显然就是为什么他的书籍如此受欢迎。

Well, that's obviously why his books Yes.

为什么嬉皮士会爱上它们。

Why hippies come to love them.

为什么20世纪60年代美国的反主流文化会喜爱它们。

Why the counterculture in the sixties America love them.

是的。

Yeah.

这本身是个有趣的故事，汤姆，因为你知道，他的书在1960年有人出版了盗版之前，在美国并没有大获成功。

So that's an interesting story in itself, Tom, because you know his books were they weren't massively successful in America until somebody printed a pirate edition in 1960 Is

是那本封面上有两只鸵鸟的吗？

that the one with two emus on the cover?

好像是那样的。

Think it's something like that.

他们把圣诞树和两只鸵鸟放在一起。

They got Christmas tree in two emus.

我猜他问过：‘你们为什么要这么做？’

I bet he asked, why have you done that?

对方说：‘我从来没读过它。’

And he said and he said, I've never read it.

没错。

No.

我认为这实际上是英国的版本，第一版英国版正是这样的。

I think that's actually a British think that's the first British edition had had exactly that.

但不，美国的版本是Ace出版社在1965年做的。

But, no, the American version Ace Books did it in 1965.

这完全是剽窃，因为他们声称托尔金在美国没有版权。

It was a complete rip off because they claimed that Tolkien had no copyrights in America.

随后，他推出了一版新的美国版，这一版他确实拥有版权。

He then produced a new edition for America that he did have copyrights on.

当然，这一版恰好在人们对反主流文化内容需求激增的时候面世。

And, of course, that comes out at precisely the moment when there's a huge appetite for kind of countercultural stuff.

所以，越南战争正打得如火如荼。

So the Vietnam war is in full swing.

嬉皮士运动已经兴起。

The hippie movement has taken off.

人们开始佩戴写着‘佛罗多万岁’、‘甘道夫当总统’的徽章。

People start wearing these badges that say Frodo lives, Gandalf for president.

托尔金正在塑造霍比特人。

Tolkien is hobbit forming.

所以这确实是。

So this is yeah.

托尔金正在塑造霍比特人。

Tolkien is hobbit forming.

所以这是理查德·尼克松的美国。

So this is Richard Nixon's America.

托尔金的作品迅速流行起来，被视为反主流文化、小即是美、绿色运动、极限时代的圣经。

And Tolkien takes off, and he is seen as a bible for countercultural, small is beautiful, you know, the green movements, the age of limits.

某种程度上，我认为这仍然是他吸引力的一部分，特别是对那些可能对他的某些政治立场感到不适的反主流文化人群。

And that, in a way, I mean, that's that that's still part of his appeal, I think, particularly to sort of to countercultural people who might be otherwise uncomfortable with some of his politics.

但你提到巫师萨鲁曼培育这些生物、这些怪物，这究竟是怎么回事？

But what is the I mean, you mentioned about the wizard Saruman breeding these these creatures, these monsters.

当然，这引发了一个问题，这个问题在二三十年前人们并不会向托尔金的作品提出，但现在却广为讨论，那就是托尔金与种族的关系。

And, of course, that raises a question that that is not one that people posed to people addressed to Tolkien's work twenty or thirty years ago, but they certainly do now, which is about Tolkien and race.

因为现在你经常看到批评者，尤其是在美国，他们会说，托尔金通过将霍比特人、人类、精灵、矮人与一种被称为奥克的怪物种族对立起来，实际上创造了一部种族主义作品，种族偏见渗透了《魔戒》，北境和西方是好的，东方和南方是坏的，诸如此类的观念。

Because you see quite often now critics, particularly in America, who will say, Tolkien, by pitting hobbits, men, elves, dwarves against this this race of monsters called orcs, he has basically he has created a racist work, that racial assumptions permeate the Lord of the Rings, that it is, you know, the North and the West are good, the East and the South are bad, all of this kind of business.

汤姆，你对这些怎么看？

Tom, what do you think about all that?

你认为这其中有些道理吗？

Do you think there's some truth in that?

我认为毫无疑问，正如我在我们第一集开头提到的，托尔金对大众如何看待中世纪的影响是根本性的。

I think there's no question that I mean, I said at the beginning of the episode the first episode we did that I think Tolkien's influence on how the Middle Ages is seen is absolutely fundamental at the most popular level.

我认为，那种白皮肤、金发国王手持魔法剑对抗黑色奥克大军的形象，正是导致人们认为中世纪研究本质上具有种族主义倾向或在种族问题上存在严重缺陷的关键因素，尤其是在美国。

And I think that idea of kind of white white skinned, golden haired kings with magical swords fighting black hordes of orcs is crucial part of what animates a sense that the study of the Middle Ages is inherently racist or has a huge problem with racism The United States.

在美国，年轻学者现在认为整个中世纪研究领域都充斥着白人至上主义。

In American younger academics who now say the whole field of medieval studies is permeated with white supremacy.

我的意思是，上周末我刚读到一些关于这个的内容。

I mean, I was only reading something about this at the weekend.

最近几天，美国历史协会已经被取消了，汤姆。

The American Historical Association has been canceled, in recent days, Tom.

所以这是一个巨大的问题，尤其是在美国。

So so this is a huge issue, particularly in The United States.

我认为托尔金是他那个时代的人。

And I I think that, Tolkien is a man of his time.

他甚至不是他那个时代的人，他的观点在30年代和40年代的标准下都算是保守的。

He's Well, not even a man of his time, I mean he's a man who's reactionary even by the standards of the 30s and 40s.

所以我认为，如果《魔戒》现在出版，敏感度审阅者不会允许其中很大一部分内容通过。

So I don't think that if Lord of the Rings was published now, I think that sensitivity readers would not really let quite large elements of it go through.

所以我认为他们不会允许半兽人被描述为黑皮肤，或者

So I don't think that they would allow orcs to be described as black skinned which Or

比如‘黝黑’这样的词

swarthy for example is the kind of word

我非常怀疑他们会允许那些与黑暗魔君索伦结盟的人类王国，明显以阿拉伯人、埃塞俄比亚人和美国南方人作为原型。

that's I up in very much doubt that they would allow so that the kingdoms of men who ally themselves with Sauron, the dark lord, are clearly modelled on Arabs and Ethiopians and people from the Deep South.

这一点从托尔金自己的著作中可以清楚看出，他确实借鉴了这些元素。

And that's pretty clear from Tolkien's own writings that he's he's drawing on that.

矮人很明显，你知道，他们身上体现了中世纪基督徒对犹太人的看法。

There are, the dwarves are pretty clearly that, you know, there are echoes of of how medieval people saw medieval Christians saw the Jews in them.

在《霍比特人》里，矮人失去了他们的家园。

The dwarves here interesting in the in the Hobbit lost their homeland.

失去了他们的家园。

Lost their homeland.

他们有十二个，就像以色列的十二个部落。

There are 12 of them like the tribes of Israel.

他们的语言大致基于希伯来语。

Their language is loosely based on on Hebrew.

所以我认为，托尔金使用的是——与其说是现代的种族概念，不如说是中世纪的差异观念。

So I think that Tolkien is using well, it's not so much modern categories of race but medieval categories of difference.

所以某种程度上，我觉得现在的人会感到别扭。

So in a way that I think people would find awkward now.

但我认为，托尔金之所以保守，是因为他的偏见本质上是中世纪的。

But I think that, you know, Tolkien is reactionary because essentially his prejudices if you like are medieval ones.

当他描述与索伦结盟的人攻击这座伟大城市、闪耀之城时，这座城是某个曾经辉煌帝国仅存的遗存。

When he's describing the people who are allied to Sauron attacking the city, the great city, the shining city, this city that is a capital of a long fall you know, all that remains of a once great empire.

我认为他有意识地唤起了阿拉伯人围攻君士坦丁堡，或匈牙利人围攻奥格斯堡的意象，随后奥托大帝率领骑兵发起冲锋，诸如此类的场景。

I think he's very consciously evoking echoes of the Arab sieges of Constantinople or the Hungarian sieges of the siege of Augsburg that gets followed by Otto the Great with his great cavalry charge and all that kind of thing.

我认为他这样做部分是因为这些意象深深触动了他。

And I think he's doing that partly because these are the echoes that move him.

这些是他阅读中汲取的养分。

They're bread of his reading.

但我也认为，因为他所处的世界里，实际上并没有多少阿拉伯人生活在牛津。

But I think also because he's he's situated in a world where there really aren't that many Arabs living in Yeah.

牛津。

Oxford.

所以他几乎从未真正接触过他们。

So he doesn't really ever come across them.

因此，他把他们想象成某种遥远的人群。

So he don't he's thinking of them as people who are kind of remote.

你知道，这些历史人物。

You know, these historical figures.

我认为他这辈子都不会想到会有阿拉伯读者看到这本书。

I think it wouldn't occur to him in a million years that an Arabic reader would ever come across this.

读一读吧。

Read it.

我认为，你可能会觉得这是在为他开脱，但你可以看到他在处理中世纪刻板印象时，是如何对待犹太人的——他确实认识犹太人。

And I think that, and you may feel that that's kind of special pleading for him, but I think that you can see what he's doing with the med medieval stereotypes with what he does with the Jews, and he did know Jews.

所以当他担任民防员时，很长一段时间里的搭档是一位犹太学者，他们相处得非常好。

So so when he's an air raid warden, his fellow air raid warden for a lot of that time is is, a Jewish scholar with whom they get on they get on very well.

托尔金非常钦佩

And Tolkien was a great admirer of

犹太人。

the Jews.

他的书在德国出版时，他曾被问到过。

He's asked when his book is published in Germany.

他需要填写一份表格，说明自己是否属于雅利安血统。

He is our he needs to fill in a form about whether or not he's of Arian stock.

他写过一封信，表示被问及是否属于雅利安血统让他感到非常冒犯。

Now he writes one letter where he says he's really offended by being asked if he's of Arian stock.

他并不真正认同这种分类。

He he's you know, he he doesn't really recognize the category.

然后他又写了一封信，大概是被问到是否有犹太血统，他回答说，简而言之，他其实希望有。

And then he writes another letter I think where he's asked if he's got Jewish antecedents and he says, they I mean, to cut a very long story short, he basically says, I wish I did.

如果我真的有犹太血统，我会非常高兴。

I'd be very happy if I did.

是的。

Yeah.

有人问他，托尔金这个姓氏是不是犹太人的。

Says so he gets asked if if Tolkien is a Jewish name.

他说这个姓氏并非源于犹太人，但如果真是，我会感到荣幸。

He says it is not Jewish in origin, though I should consider it an honor if it were.

而且他对瓦格纳在《尼伯龙根的指环》中描绘犹太人的方式非常反感。

And he also, he he was very hostile to the way that that Wagner portrayed Jews in the ring cycle.

他讨厌《指环》系列。

He hated the ring cycle.

他讨厌与瓦格纳有关的一切。

He hated everything to do with Wagner.

我认为，在他描绘那些前往夺回王国、驱逐巨龙的矮人时，有着一种非常明确的意图。

And I think that there is a very conscious element within his portrayal of the the dwarves who go on the the mission to get back, the lonely to get their kingdom back from the dragon.

我认为这其中有一种呼应。

I think there is a kind of echo there.

实际上，他在1962年或1963年左右的一次采访中说过：我确实把矮人看作犹太人——他们既是本地人又是外来者，说着这个国家的语言，却带着自己独特语言的口音。

Mean, so he's and he he actually said in an interview, so 1962, I think, 1963, something like that, that I do think of the dwarves like Jews at once native and alien in the habitation speaking the languages of the country but with an accent due to their own private tongue.

所以，今天的任何作家都不会用这样的方式来表述了。

So no no author today would ever frame it in those terms.

但同样，汤姆，你看到这些话，也不会认为这是个恶毒的反犹主义者说的话，对吧？

But equally, Tom, I don't think you would look at that and say the that's the word those are the words of a vicious anti Semite, would you?

我的意思是，你绝对不会这么说。

Mean, you wouldn't remotely say that.

不会。

No.

他们不是。

They're not.

所以，托尔金基本上是以一种他认为是英雄化的方式，重新调整了中世纪对犹太人的负面刻板印象。

So so Tolkien is is basically recalibrating medieval negative stereotypes of Jews in a way that he sees as heroic.

在这样做时，他始终如一地借鉴了古英语诗歌的传统。

And he is in doing that, he's doing what he always does, is he draws on the legacy of old English poetry.

他翻译了一本名为《出埃及记》的书，将摩西描绘成一位伟大的战士。

So he translated, a book called Exodus, which portrays Moses as a great warrior.

所以，他对待矮人也是这样做的。

And so that's what he's doing with the dwarves.

他描绘的是那些融入了北欧神话的中世纪犹太人形象。

He's portraying you know, he's portraying Jews that are medieval, that are integrated with the northern myth.

所以他给《霍比特人》里的矮人起了北欧风格的名字。

So he gives the dwarves in in the hobbit Nordic names.

因此他将它们融合在一起，你在米那斯提力斯身上也能看到同样的情况，这座城市的原型明显 loosely 基于君士坦丁堡。

So he's fusing them, which is and you see the same thing with Minas Tirith, which is this this city that is clearly based loosely on Constantinople.

它是一种永不衰落的罗马。

It's a a kind of Rome that never falls.

但他还把这座城市的居民描述为拥有犹太一神教那种纯粹的特质，他是这么说的。

But he also compares that to the people who lived there with as having the kind of the the clear purity of Jewish monotheism, he says.

所以他在那里融合了罗马和犹太的元素。

So he's he's fusing the there, the Roman and the Jewish.

他将这些通常不被融合的元素结合在一起，这让我觉得他绝对不是反犹太主义者。

So he's fusing these elements that are often not fused in a way that suggests to me that he absolutely was not antisemitic.

我本来想说，从他整体的著作来看，汤姆，他并不是一个在20世纪中期英国标准下表现出明显偏见的人。

I was gonna say everything we know from his writings more generally, Tom, is that he's not somebody who, by the standards of mid century Britain, wears prejudice heavily.

我的意思是，我们对他所有的了解。

I mean, he he everything we we know about him.

所以他写信给儿子，表达了他对南非种族制度的强烈谴责，比如他家乡南非的种族制度。

So he writes to his son and says how much he deplores the the racial system in South Africa, for example, his native South Africa.

此外，还有其他一些因素。

He there's also other elements.

比如说，有人常说他的书全都是关于白人的，但实际上并不完全如此。

I'd say, for example, it's sometimes said, well, his books are all about whiteness, and and that's actually not quite right.

比如我们之前提到过的萨鲁曼，这位‘白袍’巫师，正是白人优越性的化身，但最终却成了最可怕的恶人。

I mean, was a character who we've already mentioned called Saruman the White, who is the very embodiment of whiteness, who actually turns out to be the most dreadful Toorak.

同样，你提到过那些最终与反派结盟的军队，他们肤色较深，来自南方等等。

Similarly, that you mentioned the thing about the armies who end up allied with the the baddies, dark skinned, they're from the South and all this.

但有一个非常关键的时刻，当一位英雄看到其中一个敌人死去时，他凝视着对方，心中感到惋惜，心想：‘这人和我没什么不同。’你知道，严格来说他不是人类，因为英雄是霍比特人，但他是一个有尊严的人。

But there's a very telling moment when one of the heroes sees one of them and he's dead, and he looks at him and he feels sorry for him and he thinks he's a man just like me, you know, well, he's not a man because the heroes are Hobbits, but he's a he's a he's a person of, you know, dignity and whatever.

是的。

Yeah.

他的一生究竟是怎样的？

What what is his life?

你知道吗？

You know?

留下了什么？

What what is left behind?

他的故事是什么？

What's his story?

是的。

Yes.

是什么让他来到这里？

What what has brought him here?

他躺在那里死去，真是悲剧啊，诸如此类的事情。

How tragic that he's lying dead and all this sort of thing.

我认为，人们经常谈到的托尔金的另一个元素是他将光明与黑暗并置。

And I think also the other element that people often talk about with Tolkien, Tolkien juxtaposes light and shadow.

他谈论黑暗、黑暗魔君、黑语，所有这些类似的东西。

He talks about the darkness, the dark lord, the black speech, all of those kinds of things.

人们会说，天哪。

And people say, oh, golly.

这简直就是帝国主义和白人至上主义之类的东西。

This is, this is imperialism and and white supremacy and stuff.

我认为这完全错了。

I think that's completely wrong.

这些元素在北欧神话中都有，光明与黑暗的对立，也全都存在于《圣经》中。

Those things are all there in the Norse myths, the idea of shadow versus light, and they're all there in the bible.

所以托尔金最喜爱的圣人是，你知道的，他叫约翰。

So Tolkien's great favorite saint was, you know, he's named John.

所以圣约翰写到了，你知道的，光明进入黑暗。

So Saint John who writes about, you know, the light coming into the darkness.

这种光明的意象在《指环王》中非常非常强烈。

And that sense of light is very, very strong throughout Lord of the Rings.

这是有神学渊源的。

It's theologically bred.

我认为，托尔金对如今人们所理解的种族政治根本没有兴趣。

Tolkien had no interest, I think, real interest in racial politics in the way that it would be understood now.

没错。

No.

而且他写作时，这些问题尚未成为热门话题。

And he's writing it before that becomes a kind of current issue.

但话虽如此，我们之前谈到过，托尔金其实对他的德国背景并无兴趣。

But having said that, I mean, do think that we talked about how how Tolkien has no interest really in his the German side.

他强烈认同自己是世代居住在西米德兰兹麦西亚地区的人的后裔。

He identifies very strongly with this sense of of being the progeny of generation after generation after generation of people who've lived in the the West Midlands in Mercia.

这种对西米德兰兹的认同感对他而言极其强烈。

And that is that sense of identification with the West Midlands is so strong to him.

因此，这种情感体现在夏尔的描绘中。

So it's there in the in the portrayal of the Shire.

夏尔就是西米德兰兹。

The Shire is the West Midlands.

那是沃里克郡。

It's Warwickshire.

但洛汗中也有体现，洛汗是一个显然不只是盎格鲁-撒克逊王国的王国。

But it's also there in Rohan, which is this this kingdom which is clearly it's not just an Anglo Saxon kingdom.

它是麦西亚王国。

It's the Mercian kingdom.

它是那个王国。

It's the kingdom.

盎格鲁-撒克逊王国是

Anglo Saxon kingdom that's

基本上，洛汗就是有了马的麦西亚，不是吗？

It's Mercia if they had horses, basically, hasn't it?

麦西亚是拉丁语中‘边境’的意思，而洛汗也被称为‘边境’。

So Mercia is the Latin for the mark, and Rohan is called the mark.

我的意思是，这再清楚不过了。

I mean, it it it really couldn't be clearer.

他们的徽章是一匹白色骏马，背景为绿色。

Their emblem is a white horse on a green field.

这借鉴了乌芬顿的白马形象，那匹马刻在山侧的这片广阔绿地上。

So that's drawing on the white horse of Uffington, which is on the side of this hill, this great this green field.

他们所使用的语言不仅对应古英语，更是西麦西亚人所讲的古英语。

The language that they speak corresponds not just to old English, but to the old English as spoken by the West Mercians.

你还能看到托尔金写给他儿子的一封精彩信件，他在信中反对全球化。

And you have this brilliant letter that Tolkien writes to his son where he's objecting basically to globalization.

他反对的是各地变得越来越同质化的趋势。

He's objecting to the way that everywhere is becoming the same.

他说，事物越大，地球就越显得狭小、单调和平淡。

And he says the bigger things get, the smaller and duller or flatter the globe gets.

整个世界正变得像一个该死的、狭隘的郊区。

It is getting to be all one blasted little provincial suburb.

托尔金对此的解决办法是，他只肯说古老的麦西亚语。

And Tolkien's solution to this is that he is going to refuse to speak anything but old Mercian.

所以托尔金对全球化的回应是：让我们说古老的麦西亚语。

So Tolkien's reaction to globalization is let's speak old Mercian.

因此，这种对特定地方的认同感，是他所说的土壤，或者实际上他称之为空气。

So that that is a that sense of identification with this particular place, so it's the soil or actually the air he calls it.

早在1917年，他就已经开始谈论独特的空气了。

So as early as the 1917, he's talking about distinctive air.

有趣的是，他将这一点与地中海世界形成对比。

And interestingly, he counterpoints that with with the Mediterranean world.

因此，他将北方的空气——斯堪的纳维亚、英国和爱尔兰——与罗马和希腊的空气相对比。

So he's counterpointing the air of of of the North, so Scandinavia and Britain and Ireland, with the air of Rome and Greece.

但这对他来说才是重要的。

But that's what's important to him.

但我认为，现在很容易误解这一点。

But I think it is possible to misinterpret that now.

是的。

Yeah.

在我看来，如果托尔金的写作目标是为英格兰创造一部神话，那么这部神话要真正成为英格兰的神话，就必须不仅反映他写作时的四十年代，也要反映英格兰当下的面貌。

And it seems to me that if Tolkien is writing you know, if his ambition was to write a mythology for England, it's important that that mythology, if it's to have any sense of some sense of being a mythology for England, that it should be a mythology for England as England is now as well as as it was in the forties when he wrote it.

但是，汤姆，我的意思是，这种野心岂不是疯了？当他认为自己的国家根本不存在这样的神话时，却要为自己的国家创造一部神话。

But, Tom, I mean, in that I mean, that's a demented ambition, isn't it, to write a mythology for your own country when one as as he sees it, doesn't exist.

但无论如何，你都得承认他成功了。

But, I mean, by any standard, you would have to say he succeeded.

因为《指环王》这个项目，在二十世纪三十年代和四十年代的许多作家看来简直是荒谬的，甚至当时也遭到了一些早期评论家的严厉批评。

Because the Lord of the Rings, you know, this this project that would seem completely ludicrous to many writers in the nineteen thirties and nineteen forties, and indeed got, you know, some considerable stick from early reviewers.

但这个项目最终成为了二十世纪最成功的文化项目之一。

That project turned out to be one of the most successful cultural projects of the twentieth century.

完全正确。

Completely.

但你不觉得，他在四十年代所创造的这部英格兰神话，存在一定的风险吗？

But they but but wouldn't you agree that the risk is that this mythology for England that he created in the forties

而这个，是的。

and which Yeah.

这种神话在五十年代随着移民涌入英格兰而兴起，风险在于，由于托尔金写作时几乎所有人都是白人，这种神话可能会被关联上‘英格兰属于白人’的态度。

Which kind of took wing in the fifties as immigration was happening into England, that the risk is that because he's writing it at a time where basically everyone is white, that there is a risk that that mythology becomes associated with a a kind of England is for white people attitude.

我不认为……但我觉得，亚马逊的新剧集恰恰为我们提供了一个切入点，他们显然有意识地做出了努力，对吧？

I don't think well, I think the the very fact of the Amazon series, so this new series, which is the has given us the peg for our where they've they've made a deliberate attempt, haven't they?

他们让黑人扮演霍比特人，而且

They've got black hobbits and

他们请来了伦尼·亨利，他可能是英格兰最著名的黑人西米德兰兹人。

Well, they've got Lenny Henry, who is probably the most famous black West Middlinder in England.

在我看来，这完全合适。

So that seems to me entirely appropriate.

我的意思是，这完全符合托尔金原本的抱负，我认为。

I mean, it seems entirely with the grain of going with the grain of of everything that Tolkien's ambitions would have been, I think.

那些为托尔金辩护的批评家、托尔金学者常常会说，他创造的世界从本质上就是多元文化的。

Well, people who are Tolkien critics, who defend Tolkien, sort of Tolkien scholars, would often say he created a world that was by definition multicultural.

是的。

Yeah.

还有，你知道的，不同的语言。

And, you know, different languages.

我的意思是，《指环王》的主题基本上是不同种族的合作。

I mean, basically, the theme of the Lord of the Rings is different species, I guess, working together.

是的。

Yeah.

三个族群。

Three peoples.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

我的意思是，毫无疑问，托尔金是帝国时代的产物，他读过哈格德的作品，但他从未质疑过这些观念。

I mean, I think there's no doubt that Tolkien is a product of empire, that he's read Rider Haggard, that he he he never questions these things.

但他为什么要呢？

But why would he?

我的意思是，在二十世纪三十年代和四十年代，大多数人都是这样。

I mean, most people don't in the nineteen thirties and nineteen forties.

在我看来，要求托尔金成为一个真正属于二十世纪思想的人完全是荒谬的，他甚至都算不上是二十世纪的人。

We it it seems to me completely absurd to expect Tolkien to be a man of I mean, he was barely even a man of the twentieth century intellectually.

我觉得关于他奇怪的地方在于，他一次又一次地如此保守，却最终在我们看来几乎变得进步了。

I think the weird thing about him is is the way in which, again and again, he's so reactionary that he ends up becoming almost by our standards progressive.

这有点像

It's kind of like

所以是环保主义。

So the environmentalism.

是的。

Yeah.

就像法西斯最终变成了共产主义者一样。

Was like kind of like fascists ending up like communists.

这种奇怪的感觉，我想，就像一枚戒指，不是吗？

It's that same kind of weird I suppose, like a ring, isn't it?

你知道，

It's, you know,

这个比喻真好，汤姆。

Very nice image, Tom.

你的意思是，他的书取得了巨大的成功，远超最初批评者们的预期。我的意思是，二十世纪七十年代，甚至八十年代，他们都说这本书最终会被遗忘，不过是给青少年消遣的通俗读物。

Do you think I mean, his book has proved enormously successful, far more successful than so his critics said at first I mean, they were saying in the nineteen seventies, even in the nineteen eighties, it will eventually be forgotten that there's merely diversion for pay for teenagers.

显然，情况并非如此，因为它取得了巨大的成功。

That clearly, you know, has not worked out because it's proved enormously successful.

但你认为它会继续成为人们反复阅读的书籍之一吗？

But do you think it will continue to be one of the books that people read and reread?

你的意思是，人们会在二十二世纪依然阅读它吗？

You know, people are gonna be reading it in the twenty second century?

我会这么认为，因为这本书显然有一种力量，能深深吸引你。

I'd have thought so because there's clearly something about it that that tugs you in.

我的意思是，这是一个讲得极其精彩的故事，不是吗？

I mean, it's an incredibly well told story, isn't it?

除此之外。

Aside from anything else.

这是一部极其激动人心的冒险故事

It's an incredibly exciting adventure story

几乎无可比拟。

with few parallels.

汤姆，我认为可以说，我们还有很多没谈到的内容。

Tom, I think it's fair to say that we could talk we have there's so many things we haven't talked about.

我们还没谈到女性的线索。

So we haven't talked about the streams of women.

我们也没谈到萨姆作为我们的第一次世界大战蝙蝠侠。

We haven't talked about Sam as our first world war batman.

我们也没像我希望的那样多谈咕噜，毕竟我们是《魔戒》迷，本来可以聊上好几个小时，对吧？

We haven't talked about Gollum as much as I was hoping to, basically, because we're Lord of the Rings nerds, and we could have bored on for hours, couldn't we?

我们应该在此承认，很多年前，我们曾举办过一场《指环王》马拉松观影，一起看了电影的扩展版，还点了外卖，但我们的妻子都不愿意加入我们。

And we should confess at this stage that many years ago, we had Lord of the Rings marathon where we watched extended editions of the films together with takeaways, and our respective wives refused to join us.

确实如此。

And that Indeed.

这本身就能说明很多问题，不是吗？

That tells his own story, doesn't it?

但就在这个重磅话题之后，我想我们该结束了，因为我们已经聊了一个多小时，也该让其他人去忙自己的生活了。

But on that bombshell, I think we should probably let because we've been talking for over an hour, and we should probably let people go about the rest of their lives.

不过，汤姆，既然我们是从《霍比特人》的开头说起的，那我们也应该以《指环王》的结尾收尾。

But, Tom, since we started with the beginning of The Hobbit, I think we should end with the end of the Lord of the Rings.

你要不要听我再读一段我拿手的段落？

Would you like me to give another of my nice readings?

好。

Yeah.

像你读拉金那样。

Like your Larkin.

像你读拉金那样。

Like my Larkin.

没错。

Exactly.

人们被感动得流泪了。

People were moved to tears by that.

哦，确实，我读的是我自己的书《时光冒险》，现在就能买到。

Oh, indeed, my readings from my own books, Adventures in Time, which are available right now.

实际上，J。

And actually J.

R。

R.

R。

R.

托尔金是我那本关于第一次世界大战的书中的开篇人物，如果你有孩子，或者认识孩子，或者你曾经是个孩子，我建议你立刻购买。

Tolkien is the opening character of my book about the first world war, which if you have children or you know children or you've ever been a child, I advise you to buy forthwith.