23. 90年代

最后一个。

The last one.

排行榜。

The charts.

最后一个，没错。

Last, yeah.

这是最后一个，因为从那时起，排行榜、音乐流媒体等一切都变得极度碎片化，以至于关于哪个乐队会登顶榜首的全国性时刻变得难以想象。

It's the last one because from that point on, the charts and the streaming of music and everything, it all becomes so fragmented that the idea of a national moment around, you know, which band is gonna be number one becomes inconceivable.

所以，从某种意义上说，九十年代不仅是一个开端。

So in a sense, the nineties is not just a a beginning.

它也是那种独特文化的终结，这种文化自何时起存在？

It's also an end for that kind of distinctive culture that had existed since what?

1955年左右？

'19 death of

1955年左右？

'55 or something?

是的。

Yeah.

集体国家文化的消亡。

The the death of the death of a collective national culture.

这是一个故事，不仅限于英国，你在世界各地的社会中都能看到这个故事在上演，不是吗？

And that's a story, not just a British story, but you see that story playing out in in in societies all over the world, don't you?

所以，那场Oasis和Blur的对决，实际上是有意识地重现披头士与滚石乐队的对抗，对吧？

So that oasis blurb battle, which is actually a self conscious attempt to replay the Beatles versus the Rolling Stones, isn't it?

我的意思是，它非常

I mean, it's So it's very is

本身非常后现代。

in itself very postmodern.

它本身就是。

It is itself.

是的。

Yeah.

绝对是的。

Absolutely.

这完全是自觉的，而且存在层层叠叠的讽刺和自我认知。

The It's completely self conscious, and there's a sort of there are levels upon levels of kind of irony and self knowledge.

但现在感觉这不可能发生在2005年，因为到那时，排行榜已经失去了全国性的重要地位。

But it does feel now like that couldn't have happened in 2005 because by that point, the charts had already fallen from, you know, from national prominence.

它不再是故事的一部分了。

It was no longer part of the story.

我认为另一个时刻，对英国听众来说是一个共同的国家时刻，每个人都会记得的，就是戴安娜王妃的去世。

The other moment, I think, which is a shared national moment for British listeners, which everyone will remember, is the death of Princess Diana.

但也许我们应该先休息一下，然后再讨论这个话题。

But maybe we should take a break first and then get into that.

你知道，这是一个非常大的话题。

You know, it's such a big topic.

是的。

Yes.

好的。

Okay.

好的。

Okay.

广告后我们回来，继续谈谈戴安娜之死。

We'll come back after the break, and we will talk death of Diana.

欢迎回到《历史其余部分》，提醒大家，目前在封锁期间我们正在双倍强度更新，每周两期节目。

Welcome back to The Rest is History, and a reminder that we're operating on double shifts at the moment during lockdown, so two episodes a week.

周四，我和汤姆将邀请霍莉·鲁宾霍尔德，来聊聊18和19世纪的性话题。

And on Thursday, we have offering as Tom and I are joined by Hallie Rubinhold to talk about sex in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.

这一期绝对不适合在工作场合听，至少我希望如此。

Very not safe for work, that one, at least I hope.

现在汤姆已经擦干了眼镜上的蒸汽，我们可以继续回到九十年代了。

Now that Tom's wiped his the steam from his glasses, we can get back to the nineteen nineties.

所以，汤姆，我们刚才正要谈戴安娜之死。

So, Tom, we were going to talk about the death of Diana.

你还记得你自己的死亡吗？

Do you remember the death of you?

这是一类让你记得自己当时身处何地、正在做什么的时刻，对吧？

It's one of those moments, isn't it, where you remember where you were and what you were doing.

我记得。

I do.

我记得很清楚，因为那时我们正在搬家。

I remember it very well because we were moving house.

是的。

Right.

我们想放点欢快的音乐，好在搬椅子之类的东西时提提精神。

And we wanted some kind of cheery music to, you know, pepper us up as we were shoveling chairs and things.

《风中之烛》。

Candle in the wind.

全是沉闷的葬礼音乐。

Just wall to wall somber funerary music.

是的。

Yeah.

所以整件事非常奇特。

So the whole thing was, very peculiar.

你觉得这种事，我的意思是，像布洛·奥茨这样的时刻是大家共同经历的吗？

And do you think the kind of thing that would I mean, again, like the the Blow Oates is a shared moment.

我想大概是的，对吧？

I suppose it probably would, wouldn't it, actually?

但那会是以某种方式形成一些共享体验的泡泡，

But it would be kind of bubbles of shared experience in a way that

是的。

Yes.

我的意思是，想象一下推文，还有那些‘是的’。

I mean, imagine the tweets and imagine the Yes.

我的意思是，达娜的去世也是一种令人释然的时刻。

I mean, I think the death of Dana is such a it's also a sort of relief of maficing kind of moment.

我的意思是，英国特别擅长这种狄更斯式的感情宣泄，对吧？

I mean, British Britain specializes in these sort of outpourings of Dickensian sentimentality, doesn't it?

我的意思是

I mean

那你有没有做过现在觉得尴尬的事情？

So did you do did you do anything that you now feel embarrassed about?

你知道吗？

Do you know what?

我其实当时在保加利亚。

I was actually I was in Bulgaria.

我正在保加利亚背包旅行，我们青年旅舍里一个男人告诉我们，斯纳王子去世了。

I was backpacking in Bulgaria, and a man at our youth hostel told us that Prince Stanner died.

我们在电视上看了这个消息。

We watched it on TV.

然后，一件不可思议的事情是，我们当时在巴尔干山脉的一个小村庄里。

And then extraordinary thing, we were in this tiny village in the in the Balkan Mountains.

村子里的人们都从家里搬出了木椅，聚集在广场中央，围在一台破旧的共产主义时代电视机前。

And people in the village all got out these wooden chairs from their from their houses, and they all gathered in the center in this square in front of this battered old kind of communist era telly.

他们都在电视机上看东西。

And they were all watching something on the telly.

我们当时是背包旅行，你知道的，那是互联网出现之前。

And we were backpacking, so we didn't you know, this is pre Internet.

他们正在观看葬礼。

And they were watching the funeral.

他们看着伊尔顿·约翰、乔治·凯里、约翰·梅杰和托尼·布莱尔，用英语进行悼念。

They were watching Elton John and George Carey and John Major and Tony Blair in English.

这简直太奇怪了。

And they were it was absolutely bizarre.

我当时就想，他们到底为什么要关心这些？

And I remember thinking at the time, why who do do they really care?

但他们确实关心。

And they did.

所以这是一场国际事件。

So it was an international event.

哦，这明显发生在保加利亚的山区。

Oh, it clearly was in the mountains of Bulgaria.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我认为确实如此。

So I think it was, actually.

我想，现在还会发生这样的事吗？

I think, obviously, would that happen now?

英国王室现在还会有这种影响力吗？我的意思是，可能还是有，因为有王冠在。

Would does British does the British royalty have this I mean, probably it does because of the crown.

是的。

Yeah.

也许吧。

Maybe.

也许吧。

Maybe.

嗯，说到人们真的围在电视机前这件事，P的评论是不是有点怀旧啊？

Well, I mean, on the topic of people actually gathering around television, I mean, how retro is that, a comment from P.

奥康奈尔说，我现在回望自己90年代的生活，觉得如果有智能手机，一切都会完全不同。

O'Connell, I look back now to my own life in the '90s, he says, and I think it would have been entirely different with access to a smartphone.

这其实延续了我们刚才讨论的主题：技术或许是推动变革最强大的力量。

So that follows up really what we're talking about, that technology perhaps is the greatest agent of transformation of anything.

是啊，大概就是消除了距离吧。

Yes, mean, the elimination of distance, I suppose.

比如伦敦，这又是一种非常以英国为中心的思维方式，也许吧。

London, for example, again, this is a very sort of Anglo centric way to to think of it maybe.

但在90年代初，伦敦和今天相比简直是座完全不同的城市，那时多元文化程度低得多，国际性也弱得多，我觉得。

But London, in the early nineteen nineties, feels like a very different city from what it is today, much less multicultural, much less international, I would say.

我认为，像技术、国际旅行，以及那种流动感和可能性的感觉，如今比90年代要强烈得多。

And I think things like technology and international travel and the sort of sense of just the sense of flux and the sense of the of possibility is so much greater now than it was than it was in the nineties.

我不知道。

I didn't I don't know.

我不是伦敦人。

I wasn't from London.

我记得去伦敦的时候，还得拿地图，做这一堆事情。

And I I remember the even going to London, you know, having to get a map and all this kind of carry on.

那种把整个世界装进口袋、体现在智能手机里的感觉，当时根本不存在。

That sort of sense of having the world in your pocket embodied in your smartphone was utterly absent.

我想大概是去年或者前年，有一个关于杰里米·戴勒这位伟大艺术家的节目，对吧。

I think it was last maybe last last year, the year before, and it was a program about Jeremy Deller, the great artist Yeah.

节目展示了关于狂欢文化以及在英格兰各地巡游的车队的一系列影片，然后给伦敦的一群学生观看，结果他们都完全看不懂。

Taking a series of films about kind of rave culture and about the convoys going around England, and showing it to a class of schoolchildren in London, and all of them watching it in in absolute incomprehension.

对他们来说，那是一个完全陌生的世界。

It was a completely alien world to them.

是的。

Yeah.

部分原因是戴拉所展示的影片中的人物都是白人，而伦敦教室里的学生却并非如此。

Partly because everybody in the films that Della was showing were white, whereas that wasn't the case in the classroom in London.

这大概反映了自90年代以来发生的 demographic 变化。

That was a kind of indication of the demographic change, I guess, that has happened since the '90s.

这是所发生事情的另一个方面。

That is another aspect of what's happened.

说到这一点，MacMathymaether，我不太清楚该怎么发音。

On which point, MacMathymaether I don't know how you pronounce that.

我向他或她道歉。

I apologize to him or her.

为什么现在与1990年之间的文化差距，感觉不如1960年到1990年那么大？

Why does the cultural gap between now and 1990 not feel as great as that of 1960 to 1990?

是冷战的原因吗？还是仅仅因为我这个90年代出生的人？

Is it the Cold War, is it just me, the author born in the nineties?

我的意思是，这确实是一个非常有趣的观点。

I mean, I think that is an interesting really interesting point.

你会不会把它推到1991年，甚至1997年？

And you would push it kind of to the '19 maybe even '97 with perhaps?

我是说，文化差距，我想。

I mean, the cultural gap, I suppose.

我的意思是，现在和1990年代之间真的有文化差距吗？

I mean, does it feel like there's a cultural gap between now and the 1990s?

并没有巨大的文化差距，对吧？

Not a massive cultural gap, is there?

我是说，鲍里斯，你说得对。

I mean, Boris, you're right.

或者麦克，或者他或她完全正确，1960年到1990年的差距感觉极其巨大。

Or Mac or he or she is absolutely right that the gap between 1960 and 1990 feels colossal.

我想当时这种差距也感觉极其巨大，对吧？

And I guess it felt colossal at the time, didn't it?

这简直彻底推翻了我整套书籍的核心论点，即六七十年代根本没发生任何变化。

Which sort of just just explodes the entire thesis of my series of books, which is that nothing changed in the sixties and seventies.

但当然，是发生了变化的。

But of course, did.

我想确实有些变化，尤其是在七十年代和八十年代，社会变革加速了。

I guess something did change, particularly in the, I think, seventies and eighties as social change accelerated.

但你说得对。

But you're right.

我的意思是，你看，性手枪乐队离乔治·福姆比比离我们更近，之类的。

I mean, we are you can do all these sort of we are you know, the Sex Pistols are closer to George Formby than they are to us or something.

你可以用各种小细节来展示，某些历史时期彼此之间比你想象的更近或更远。

You can do all these sort of little little quirks to show how periods and some periods in history are close together or further apart than you think.

九十年代在某种程度上感觉离我们很近，而它对五十年代或六十年代的人来说却并不那么近。

And the nineteen nineties do feel quite close to us in a way that they didn't feel close to the fifties or to the or to the sixties.

我的意思是，我认为1990年前后世界发生的两大巨变是技术变革和冷战结束。

I mean, I suppose the two massive, massive changes between 1990 and and so so the world before 1990 and the world after 1990 is the technological one and the end of the Cold War.

冷战的结束彻底重塑了地缘政治格局。

So the end of the Cold War completely recalibrates the geopolitical circumstances.

它彻底改变了人们理解世界运行方式的方式。

It transfigures the way in which people understand how the world relates.

它为中国的崛起打开了大门。

It opens the door for the rise of China.

它影响了欧洲联盟的演变。

It affects the evolution of the European Union.

它使美国成为一种超级大国，随后又急剧衰落。

It changes America becomes a kind of hyperpower and then kind of plummets.

所有这些变化都隐含在其中，但它们明显源于冷战的崩溃。

So all these kind of changes are implicit in that, but they're recognizably bred of the the the kind of the collapse of the of the Cold War.

不过，汤姆，那是一个非常异常的时刻。

Although that's a very anomalous moment, Tom.

我认为冷战的结束是一个非常异常的时刻，因为我们现在所处的世界，地缘政治上可能更接近1990年之前的状况，而不是你所说的那样——现在又回到了两个大国并立的局面。

I think that's a very anomalous moment, the collapse of the Cold War, because actually, net the world we're in now is probably more similar to the pre 1990 world geopolitically than to the so you've got two powers now.

美国不再是超级大国。

America is no longer a hyperpower.

但它们已经改变了。

But they've changed.

是的，它们已经改变了。

Yeah, they've changed.

中国已经超越了俄罗斯。

China has eclipsed Russia.

我的意思是，俄罗斯

I mean, but Russia

因此对欧洲人来说，我们不再居于中心地位。

And so for Europeans, we're no longer central.

在冷战期间，我们是战场。

In the Cold War, we were the battleground.

我的意思是，那并不是一个很愉快的位置，但我们很重要。

I mean, it wasn't a very pleasant position to be, but we mattered.

而如今，是美国和中国，欧洲则有点边缘化了。

Whereas now, it's America and China, and Europe's a bit of a backwater.

所以这是一种令人清醒的变化。

So that is a kind of sobering change.

是的，尽管欧洲过去可能确实很重要，但正如你所说，它曾是战场。

Yes, although Europe probably mattered well, it was, as you say, a battleground.

我的意思是，我们是其他势力交战的战场，而不是一个拥有自身强大主动性的地区。

I mean, we're a battleground over which others fought rather than one with a great deal of agency in ourselves.

我的意思是，这就是为什么人们最初想建立欧盟的原因——他们觉得英国和欧洲已经变得不再重要，他们不希望欧洲仅仅成为一个超级大国相互争斗的被动舞台。

I mean, that's one reason why people wanted to set up the European Union in the first place was they felt that Britain that Europe had become Europe was they didn't want to just be this sort of passive arena over which rival superpowers fought.

但我想，如今欧洲的地位正是如此，一个略显被动的舞台。

But that's kind of Europe's position now, I think, as a sort of slightly passive arena.

我的意思是，欧洲现在并不一定比上世纪50年代和60年代更弱，因为我认为那时它实际上也并不特别强大。

I mean, Europe is not necessarily weaker now than it was in the '50s and '60s because I don't think it was actually particularly strong back then.

总之。

Anyway.

总之，好吧，随便吧。

Anyway, well, whatever.

然后是技术，我们已经讨论过了。

And then technology, which we've already discussed on.

但这确实是一个巨大的变化。

But that really is a kind of huge change.

是的。

Yeah.

尼古拉斯·罗杰斯说，90年代是不是一个感觉一切都恰到好处的时期？

Nicholas Rogers says, was the 90s a time when things felt just right?

技术令人兴奋而非枯燥的日常，充满原创性与文化，政治理性，冷战结束。

Technology exciting rather than ubiquitous grind, loads of originality and culture, sensible politics, end of the Cold War.

我们已经隐约提到过这一点。

We've sort of alluded to this.

我的意思是，你可以讲述这个故事，并说：是的，技术当时非常令人兴奋。

I mean, you can tell that story and say, yes, technology was terribly exciting.

是的，一切都感觉美好而光明。

Yes, everything felt right and rosy.

但你同样可以讲这个故事，说实际上，未来问题的种子早在1990年代就已经埋下，你不能说某个时期是事情出错的起点，是我们搞砸了的时候吗？

But you can equally tell that story and say, actually, it's not the seeds of future problems were sowed in the 1990s, and you couldn't have you know, there's sometimes people say of a particular period, well, is that when things went wrong, when we got things wrong?

但认为我们能够做对并解决问题，这是一种幻觉。

But the idea that we could get things right and fix it is an illusion.

事情本来就会出错，因为这就是历史的本质。

Things were always going to go wrong because that's the nature of history.

那么，具体是哪个话题呢？

Well, on which topic again?

来自威廉·里奇的问题。

Question from William Ritchie.

将布莱尔和1997年视为英国二十世纪的终结——世袭贵族的废除、香港回归、权力下放、《贝尔法斯特协议》的签署——是否合理？还是说这只是掩盖了表面的裂痕？

Is it reasonable to see Blair and 'ninety seven as the resolution of The UK's twentieth century, the end of hereditary peers, Hong Kong return, devolution, Good Friday Agreement, or was it papering over the cracks?

掩盖裂痕。

Papering over the cracks.

我不太认同‘掩盖裂痕’这种说法，因为这个问题的潜台词是，当时已经存在深层次的问题，只是后来才显现出来。

I I wouldn't go with papering over the cracks because I think that's sort of that the implication of that question is there are deep problems that then became apparent.

但我的意思是，所有社会都有问题。

But I mean, all societies have problems.

这就是社会的本质。

That's the nature of being a society.

我认为布莱尔政府确实能够解决一些问题，部分原因是许多繁重的工作在我看来已经提前完成了。

I think clearly the Blair government was able to resolve things, partly because a lot of the heavy lifting, I would argue, had been done already.

许多经济上的争端似乎已经解决，因此他们可以把精力投入到北爱尔兰问题和其他事务上。

And a lot of economic battles seemed to be settled so they could then put their energies into Northern Ireland and all this stuff.

但他们只是在掩盖裂缝吗？

But were they papering over the cracks?

我不认为英国实际上比其他国家有更多的裂缝。

I I don't believe The UK is actually more cracked than other nations.

你觉得呢，汤姆？

Do you, Tom?

嗯，我非常喜欢布莱尔。

Well, I loved Blair.

这真是一个很好的坦白。

That's a great admission.

我知道。

I know.

他当选时我特别高兴，我确信当时有一种感觉，认为政治没什么好担心的，一切都会顺利，于是我干脆把政治的挡位挂到空挡，随波逐流，去想别的事情。

I was so happy when he was elected, and I'm sure there was a kind of feeling that politics wasn't something to worry about and everything was going to And I just kind of put my political gearstick into neutral and coasted along and thought about other things.

但当然，各种问题正悄悄从草丛中冒出来。

But of course, all kinds of things were creeping up through the undergrowth.

这难道不是吗

Isn't it

不过，汤姆，布莱尔确实很有趣，你知道吗，他2007年离任时，人们在下议院为他鼓掌欢送。

an interesting thing with Blair though, Tom, that you know, he he left office in 2007, and people applauded him out of the House of Commons.

他获得了来自议会两党的起立鼓掌。

He had a standing ovation from both sides of the house.

我至今仍能看见戴维·卡梅伦鼓励他的保守党议员们起立为布莱尔鼓掌。

I can still see David Cameron kind of encouraging all his Tory MPs to stand and applaud Blair.

布莱尔离职时正处于权力巅峰。

Blair left at the height of his powers.

而现在，布莱尔却很难在公众场合露面，因为人们会对他大喊大叫。

And now it is Blair who sort of struggles to show his face in public because people will shout at him.

而他的前任约翰·梅杰，尽管曾被广泛嘲笑，但人们在街上看到他时，会说：‘哦，是约翰·梅杰。’

Whereas John Major, his much lampooned predecessor, if people see John Major in the street, they say, oh, it's John Major.

很高兴见到他。

Nice to see him.

他也没那么糟。

He wasn't so bad.

你知道吗？

You know?

命运如此逆转，难道不令人惊讶吗？

Isn't that extraordinary, the reversal in fortunes?

但人们从来就不讨厌梅杰，对吧？

Except people never hated Major, did they?

没有。

No.

他们确实没有。

They didn't.

从来就没有那种分裂的感觉。

There was never there there was the sense of division.

你从来没有那种感觉。

You've never had that.

没有。

No.

我的意思是，人们只是对他有点轻蔑。

I mean, people kind of mildly contemptuous of him.

他就是那种把衬衫塞进内裤里，还有热线电话之类的事情。

He was, you got the shirt into his underpants and cone hotlines and things.

是的。

Yeah.

但没人恨他。

But but nobody hated him.

没有。

No.

一点也不。

Not at all.

实际上，对他来说，一个很好的事情是，随着托尼·布莱尔持续活跃在公众视野中，约翰·梅杰的声望反而上升了。

And and, actually, the great thing for him is that the more that Tony Blair has sort of remained in the public eye, the more John Major's stock has risen.

所以，这就像被绑在一起了，是的。

So this that that's sort of yoked Yeah.

我，托尼，我感觉就像奥德修斯在听塞壬的歌声。

I I I, Tony, I feel like kind of Odysseus listening to the sirens.

我知道这不好，但每当我听到托尼·布莱尔，我总是会想，对，他说得对。

I I know it's bad, but whenever I hear Tony Blair, I always go, yeah, he's so right.

是的。

Yes.

当然。

Absolutely.

你得把自己绑在桅杆上。

You need to be chained to the mast.

斯图尔特·E。

Stuart E.

穆克，这名字真棒。

Mook, great name.

是的。

Yeah.

九十年代的毒品文化对今天产生了什么影响？

What effect has the nineties drug culture had on today?

多米尼克，我知道你总是说毒品文化对任何事情都没有影响。

Now, Dominic, I know you're a great one for saying that that drug culture has had no effect on anything.

我认为九十年代人们对毒品的态度略有不同，不是吗？

Well, I think people had a different slightly different attitude to drugs in the nineties, didn't they?

在九十年代，我认为，对于我们这一代人来说，毒品纯粹是娱乐性的、很酷，甚至几乎无害。

There was still the nineties The '90s, I would say, felt a little bit like a certainly among people of our generation, that drugs were purely recreational, cool, almost harmless, actually.

我想，二十多岁的人普遍都有这种假设。

That was the sort of assumption, I think, among people in their twenties.

而且当时人们谈论毒品时不像现在这样充满忧虑。我觉得，把那时的情况和现在的数据做个对比会很有趣，看看毒品的流行程度以及毒品使用的阶级基础发生了怎样的变化。

And I don't think people talked about drugs with with the I mean, now people talk about drugs with much greater, I would say, foreboding than they though it'd be interesting to compare that then with the stats and to see how popular they are and also how the class base has changed with drugs.

我的意思是，

I mean,

我觉得，突然之间，足球流氓们彼此拥抱，这在哈西亚nda舞厅里发生的一切，作为一种民间传说，其地位堪比1967年。

I think the way in which suddenly you had football hooligans hugging each other Yeah.

作为一种传说，它至今仍可能产生影响。

On the floor of the Hacienda and all that kind of thing, as a kind of folk myth, it's up there with the 1967.

是的。

Yeah.

作为一种传说，它或许仍在持续产生影响。

That it it as a myth, perhaps, it continues to have an impact, I think.

因为我觉得整个迷幻药文化的理念，就是我们都能够彼此相爱。

Because I think the whole idea of the ecstasy culture, you know, we can all just love one another.

很多人确实体验过这种感觉，即使那是化学诱导的，但确实你所需要的只是爱。

And so many people did experience that, even if it was kind of chemically induced, that actually all you need is love.

我认为我们这一代人仍然带着那种印记。

And I think that people of our generation are are still bear the stamp of that, I think.

我觉得有一种微妙的想法，为什么我们不能彼此相爱、成为朋友呢？

I think that there is a kind of slight, oh, why can't we all just love each other and be friends?

但这种想法讽刺地催生了各种恶毒和道德上的优越感。

That ironically breeds all kinds of vituperation and and kind of moral righteousness.

但我觉得，‘要善良’这个说法，当你在推特评论区看到它时，其实总是令人恐惧和威胁的。

But I think but I think the the you know, be kind is I mean, it's always a terrifying, menacing kind of thing when, know, you see it on a Twitter thread or something.

人们为什么就不能只是

Why can't people When just be

人们说这句话时，通常是以最恶毒的方式表达的。

people say that, they they mean it in the most they mean it in the most vitriolic way, usually.

是的。

Yes.

但我认为，那种善良、爱、每个人都互相拥抱而不互相伤害的理想，作为一种神话，确实具有持久的共鸣。

But but but I think the the kind of the ideal of, you know, of kindness, of love, of everyone just hugging each other and and not kind of kicking each other in or whatever is as a myth, it does kind of have a a kind of enduring resonance.

也许没有。

Maybe not.

我不知道。

I don't know.

我会，我会

I'll I'll

把这留给你。

leave you that.

他在学校里提到过一种叫做善良研究的东西，这当然是对的。

Something in school that he refers to as kindness studies, and it's surely Right.

我会的。

I will.

而且，这迟早会成为一个学位。

Well And it's surely only a matter of time before that becomes a degree.

总之

Anyway

这完全是狂欢文化的影响。

That's that's all the influence of of rave culture.

好的。

Okay.

这是尼古拉斯提出的一个很好的问题。

This is a great question from Nicholas.

同样，我希望我念对了这个名字。

Again, I hope I've pronounced this right.

胡安，胡安，胡安。

Juan Juan Juan.

九十年代是不是银幕上，甚至或许在银幕之外，最后一批不加批判的美国主义盛行的十年？

Were the nineteen nineties the last decade of uncritical Americanism on screen and indeed perhaps beyond screen?

像《独立日》、《爱国者》、《末日浩劫》，甚至《拯救大兵瑞恩》这样的电影，如今看来，它们展现美国的方式简直难以想象。

Films like Independence Day, Patriot, Armageddon, or even Saving Private Ryan seem unthinkable in the way they picture The US nowadays.

我完全同意你的观点，特什。

I totally agree with that, Tesh.

这是一个非常棒的观察。

That's a really good observation.

我觉得，嗯，这是对的。

Do you I I think that is true.

我认为曾经有一个美国，它当然也有问题，但显然，好莱坞传递出一种感觉，仿佛他们几乎在冷战中取得了胜利。

I think there was a America, you know, had its issues, but it it clearly, there was a sense that Hollywood projected that they had, in a verdict, almost won the Cold War.

一直都是以这种方式呈现的。

It was always presented that way.

它并没有被表现为戈尔巴乔夫的改革出了问题，以及苏联的解体。

It wasn't presented as a as a matter of kind of Gorbachev's reforms going wrong and the Soviet Union falling apart.

而且当时存在着一种相当不加批判的氛围。

And there was this quite uncritical sense.

我在美国的电影院看过《拯救大兵瑞恩》，还记得那个场景。

I I saw Saving Private Ryan in a cinema in America, and I can remember the scene.

有一刻，他们升起了一面巨大的美国国旗，镜头对准了这面国旗。

They've got a colossal American flag flying at one point, the shot is of this American flag.

当时影院里周围的人都在哭泣，而我只是坐在那里。

And, I mean, there were people sobbing in the auditorium around me, and I just sat there.

我这辈子从未觉得自己这么英国人。

I've never felt so British in my life.

我只是想笑，说实话，我当时只想离开电影院。

Just this I just wanted to glee I just wanted to leave the cinema, to be honest.

我这个人就是这么刻薄、讨厌。

I'm just so churlish and nasty as a person.

而且，它不是著名地展现了英国的战争努力吗？

Well, and famously featured the British war effort, didn't it?

是的。

Yeah.

当然了。

Well, of course.

我想是的。

I I think yes.

我认为，过去几年里，美国作为这种理想化模式的崩溃，其实是一个非常有趣的故事。

And I think that's actually a really interesting story the last few years is the collapse of America as this sort of idealistic model.

在他们自己眼中，也在我们眼中，美国政客们常常夸耀自己在世界上其他地方被嘲笑，被视为需要避免的榜样。

In their own minds, actually, as well in ours, you see American politicians breast beating about the fact that they're being mocked elsewhere in the world or they're being seen as a model of what to avoid.

我想在20世纪90年代，这简直是不可想象的。

And I think that would have been unthinkable back in the 1990s.

有意思的是，我们俩都在谈论自己如何与互联网产生联系。

Well, I mean, it's interesting that both of us talking about remembering how we got connected to the internet.

我们俩都与斯坦福大学有联系。

Both of us have a link to Stanford.

我们俩都有美国朋友帮助我们搭建了网络。

Both of us had American friends who helped to set it up.

我的意思是，我们当时感觉自己像是原始人。

I mean, essentially, we felt like kind of primitives.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

美国代表着未来。

America was the future.

而如今，当你经常去美国时，尤其是在基础设施甚至手机等设备方面，感觉似乎……

Whereas now, think, when you go to America often, certainly in terms of its infrastructure and even in terms of its kind of, you know, the phones and things, it seems

是的。

Yeah.

我完全同意，汤姆。

I completely agree, Tom.

我完全同意。

I totally agree.

我想我第一次去美国是在九十年代，当时被它的现代化程度深深震撼了。

I think that's a bit I first went to America in the nineties and was struck by the modernity of it.

我的意思是，他们有一些我们没有的东西。

I mean, they had things that we didn't have.

而且甚至是一些微不足道的小事，却有着某种象征意义。

And I also even just tiny piffling little things that were somehow symbolic.

我记得我去的时候，他们正在放映一些我看过但欧洲还没上映的电影，而我甚至都没听说过。

So I can remember going and they're having films that I had that had not come out in Europe, but I'd never even heard of.

你知道，因为他们的电影排片总是比我们领先。

You know, their because their their film schedule was always ahead of ours.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

然后回到家里，跟别人说，哦，有一部新的阿诺·施瓦辛格电影之类的。

And then going back home and saying to people, oh, there's a new Arnold Schwarzenegger film or whatever.

你肯定没听说过，但我已经在美洲看过了。

You won't have heard of it, but I've seen it in America.

那种他们在技术和文化上真正领先的感觉已经消失了，对吧？

And that sense of them literally being ahead technologically, culturally, that has gone, hasn't it?

互联网摧毁了这种优势，但同时也有一种感觉，即美国在1989年、1990年后未能继续前进。

The Internet has destroyed that, but also there's a sense that America has failed to kick on after 1989, 1990.

另外，我认为九十年代我最喜爱的剧集是《X档案》，我特别喜欢它，因为它有一种令人着迷的偏执感。

Also, I I think my favorite series of the nineties was The X Files, which I I loved because it was it was kind of engagingly paranoid.

你可以观看并享受它，明明知道它纯属胡扯，但又隐约暗示着也许罗兹威尔真有外星人之类的事情。

You could watch it and enjoy it, it was clearly nonsense, but the vague hint that perhaps there were aliens in Roswell or whatever.

而如今，所有这些都变得完全可怕了。

Whereas now, all of that has become completely terrifying.

本质上，《X档案》已经变成了QAnon，完全不再有趣了。

Essentially, the X Files has become QAnon, and it's not fun at all.

说到人们相信的怪异事物，来自史蒂夫·HP的一个问题，他是个很棒的人。

On the topic of weird stuff that people believe, question from Steve HP, wonderful man.

二十世纪九十年代的历史在很大程度上受到了教皇圣若望·保禄二世、伊朗伊斯兰共和国、奥萨马·本·拉登、阿贾清真寺的毁灭以及达赖喇嘛的软实力的影响。

The history of the 1990s was affected in important ways by Pope Saint John Paul II, the Islamic Republic Of Iran, Osama bin Laden, the destruction of the Aja Mosque, and the soft power of the Dalai Lama.

西方历史学家，你，多米尼克，是否具备解释这一现象的概念框架？

Are Western historians, you, Dominic, equipped with a conceptual framework to explain this?

我其实有一个很棒的概念框架。

I've got a great conceptual framework, actually.

你不用担心我的概念框架，汤姆。

You don't need to worry about my conceptual framework, Tom.

所以，我想这其实是一个关于宗教的问题。

So this is, I guess, I'm guessing a question about religion, really.

这是一个关于

It's a question about

是的。

Yes.

我认为是，特别是制度性宗教。

I think it's and not and specifically, institutional religion.

所以不是那种外星人《X档案》类型的东西，是的。

So not the kind of alien X Files kind of Yes.

那种九十年代流行的灵性但非宗教的东西，但这里是制度性的宗教。

Spiritual but not religious stuff that you get in the nineties, but organized So it's

这难道不是很有趣吗？

an interesting thing, isn't it?

因为九十年代感觉像是一种终结，像是上帝已死的时期。

Because the nineteen nineties felt like a kind of death it's like death of god period.

那种福山的书，以及人类自由民主是未来的观点，我确实记得，当我戴上纯粹个人记忆的帽子时。

The sort of Fukuyama book and the idea that sort of humanistic liberal democracy was the future, and that I I definitely remember sort of putting my purely sort of personal memory hat back on.

人们谈论伊朗、阿亚图拉和拉什迪的教令时，把它们当作遗迹。

The way that people talked about Iran and the Ayatollah and the Rashti fatwa and whatnot, that these were relics.

这些很快就会被遗忘的遗迹。

These were soon to be forgotten kind of relics.

人们经常说这是中世纪的行为，把伊朗称为中世纪政权等等。

People would often say it's medieval sort of behavior, and they'd talk about Iran as a medieval regime and all.

实际上，9·11事件之后，人们也经常这么做。

And people did that a lot actually after nine eleven as well.

现在很明显，人们，尤其是在世俗的西方，低估了宗教的韧性，以及宗教认同和宗教忠诚在后冷战世界中所起的作用。

And it's clear now that people, particularly in the sort of secular West, underestimated the resilience of religion and the way in which religious identity and religious loyalty would play a part, particularly in the post Cold War world.

我其实讨厌这个问题，因为这对你来说简直是天赐良机。

And I actually hate this question because it's such a gift to you.

确实如此。

It is.

因为在九十年代，我对这个问题完全不感兴趣。

Because I I had to I had no interest in this question at all in the nineties.

我的意思是，这对我来说毫无意义。

I mean, I it was nothing to me.

根本没引起我的注意。

Barely registered on my radar.

而如今，我当然意识到自己当时完全错了，于是我写了一本名为《称霸》的书，可在所有正规书店购买。

Whereas now, of course, I have realized that that was completely wrong, and I've written a book about A Called Dominion, which is available from all good bookshops.

关于

On

羞耻名单。

Shame list.

那个谢默斯。

That Sheamus.

关于这个，我之所以同意这个话题，是因为我确实……

On on that that I only agreed to this topic because I Yeah.

所以你能看出这个问题迟早会出现。

So you could see that that question would come up.

我觉得我们应该划个界限。

I think we should draw a line.

我的意思是，咱们看看怎么才能更进一步。

I mean, let's see how we can top that.

好的。

Okay.

嗯，我觉得你应该给我一个例子：在1990年代，有没有哪个时刻是我们现在不谈、但其实应该多谈的，你认为历史学家将来会关注的？

Well, I think you should give me one is there one moment from the 1990s that you think we don't talk about that we should talk about more that you think historians will look at?

有什么出乎意料的吗？

Is there anything unexpected?

你不能问我这个问题。

You can't ask me that question.

在伟大之后，我感觉太累了。

I feel too tired after Great.

伟大。

Great.

全体委员会。

Full committee.

显然，你是有的。

Well, clearly, you do.

那么告诉我，那个时刻是什么？

So tell me, what is the moment?

你显然对这个问题有答案。

You clearly have an answer to this question.

我认为，实际上英国没有加入欧元区，从英国的角度来看

I think actually probably Britain not joining the euro from a British

哦，非常好。

Oh, very good.

是的，非常好。

Yes, very good.

我认为

I think

没有加入欧元让我们提前实现了脱欧，而且我认为我们都读过罗伯特·图姆斯的书，他是著名的脱欧派，罗伯特·图姆斯教授写过关于脱欧的著作。

not joining the euro was so we did Brexit before, and I think we've both read the book by Robert Toombs he was a big Brexiteer, Professor Robert Toombs about Brexit.

他提出，如果我们加入了欧元区，脱欧根本不可能实现，我认为他是对的，因为退出欧元所带来的经济破坏将会极其严重。

He makes the argument that Brexit would not have been possible had we joined the euro, and I think he's right, because the economic damage of crashing out the euro would just be so great.

这实际上是戈登的贡献，我的意思是，这可能会被载入史册，正如他自己所说，他在2008年金融危机后拯救了世界。

And that was actually Gordon I mean, that will probably go down as Gordon Brown's apart from, as he would himself put it, saving the world in 2008 after the crash.

戈登·布朗对英国历史的伟大贡献。

Gordon Brown's great contribution to British history.

我的意思是，'伟大'在这里是指重要，而不是赞许的意思。

I I mean, great as in as in important rather than as a term of approval.

不加入欧元区，从某种意义上使英国脱欧成为可能，

By not joining the euro, that made Brexit possible in a way that

但你会说这是不可避免的吗？

But would you say inevitable?

嗯，托姆斯会说这是不可避免的。

Well, Two's would say inevitable.

但这是一个重大的问题。

But that's a massive question.

英国脱欧是不可避免的吗？

Was Brexit inevitable?

这肯定能做成一个播客话题。

Surely, there's a podcast in that.

是的。

Yes.

我们必须请海伦·汤普森。

We must get Helen Thompson.

对。

Yeah.

Anyway，我们只是在随意交谈。

Anyway, we're just talking over.

她对这个话题非常出色。

She's she's brilliant on this topic.

我们现在正在与观众分享我们的幕后对话，我们应该停止了。

We're now sharing our we're now sharing our backstage conversations with the audience, and we should stop.

是的。

Yes.

所以我认为就这样了。

So I think that's it.

我认为我们可以宣告九十年代结束了。

I think we declare the nineties over.

请在下一期节目中和我们一起回顾18世纪和19世纪的性话题。

Please join us next time as we head back and take a good look at sex in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.

再见。

Goodbye.

再见。

Goodbye.

感谢收听《历史其余部分》。

Thanks for listening to the Rest is History.

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网址是 restishistorypod.com。

That's restishistorypod.com.