24. 都市男女

欢迎收听《历史其余部分》，这档播客以飞快的速度从古罗马穿越到20世纪90年代，途中愉快地造访特洛伊和中国。

Welcome to The Rest is History, the podcast which hurtles from ancient Rome to the nineteen nineties at war speed cheerfully calling in at Troy and China along the way.

这档播客偶尔也会掀开裙摆，露出一点肌肤——这很合适，因为今天与多米尼克和我一同加入的是历史学家兼作家霍莉·鲁宾霍尔德，她专攻18至19世纪的英国历史，尤其专注于那个时代的性动态。

This is also a podcast happy on occasion to lift its skirts and show a little flesh, which is handy as joining Dominic and I today is the historian and author Hallie Rubinhold who has specialized in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries in Britain and particularly in the sexual dynamics of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.

多米尼克，我应该在此说明，我其实先认识霍莉，不是通过她的历史著作，而是通过她的小说。

Dominic, I should reveal at this stage that I actually met Hallie first, not through her history, but through her fiction.

因为，霍莉，我读过的你的第一本书是小说《亨丽埃塔·莱特富特》。

Because, Hallie, the the first book of yours that I read was a novel Henrietta Lightfoot.

它叫《奇妙》。

It it was called Fantastic.

《命运的主人》。

Mistress of My Fate.

《命运的主人》。

Mistress of My Fate.

对。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

That's right.

是的。

Yes.

她是一位十八世纪的人物，追随了霍加斯的《妓女的历程》。

And and she was she was an eighteenth century kind of following the the Hogarth, the the Harlot's Progress.

而且是一位非常不可靠的叙述者。

And very very kind of unreliable narrator.

没错。

That's right.

给我们讲讲她的一些事吧。

Just tell us something a little bit about her.

嗯，我写了这本书。

Well, it's I so I wrote the book.

我想用尽所有十八世纪和十九世纪初的戏剧性套路。

I wanted to use really every eighteenth and early nineteenth century dramatic trope there was.

所以我想要写一本像《汤姆·琼斯》、像《巴里·林登》、像《芬妮·希尔》、像简·奥斯汀那样的书。

And and so I I wanted to create a book which was like Tom Jones, which was like Barry Lyndon, which was like Fanny Hill, which was like Jane Austen.

但完全从女性的视角来讲述。

But told completely from a woman's point of view.

并且以一种毫不羞愧、非常直白的方式，讲述女性实际会经历的一切。

And and told in a way which was unashamed and and, you know, just very upfront about what women would have experienced.

她从某种高度跌落——我不会说有多高，因为她是一位伯爵的私生女。

Having fallen from I'm not gonna say great height because she was the illegitimate daughter of of an earl.

但她是从体面的社会中跌落，然后不得不以交际花的身份谋生，以及那是什么样的生活。

But having fallen from respectable society and then having to make her way as a courtesan and and what that was like.

我写这本书的原因是我花了很多时间阅读所谓的——也就是人们所知的妓女回忆录。

And and the reason why I wrote this was that I have spent a lot of time reading what were called well, what are known as whores memoirs.

这是一个完整的、独立的文类。

And it's a whole it's a whole genre.

这简直太棒了。

And it's just absolutely brilliant.

写于十七、十八、十九世纪的忏悔录，其中

Written seventeen, eighteenth, nineteenth century confessionals where

由真正的

Written by written by actual

有时是由从事性工作的女性所写。

Sometimes, by by women who engaged in sex work.

所以，哈丽特·威尔逊，如果你还记得哈丽特·威尔逊和她与威灵顿公爵的关系的话。

So, Harriet Wilson, and if you remember Harriet Wilson and and her relationship with the Duke of Wellington.

而且

And

哦，出版吧，管他呢。

Oh, publish and be damned.

出版吧，管他呢。

Publish and be damned.

没错。

That's right.

所以她确实写了她的回忆录。

And and so she actually did write her memoirs.

但她只是少数人之一。

But she's one of the few.

在那之后，还有许多其他女性，她们的经历基本上是由男性代为表达的。

And there are lots of other women along the way who men basically voiced their experiences for them.

这变成了一种男性可以购买的色情作品。

And this became a type of pornography which men could buy.

它非常撩人。

It was very titillating.

就像《芬妮·希尔》一样。

Just like Fanny Hill.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

就像《芬妮·希尔》。

Well, Like Fanny Hill.

没错。

Exactly.

没错。

Exactly.

《芬妮·希尔》。

Fanny Hill.

你知道，这是一个完美的例子。

You know, it's a perfect example.

你知道，女性在这种环境中的经历会是什么样子。

You know, what what women would have experienced.

我简直不敢相信的是，我知道女性在这个性世界中的经历与男性体验的完全不同。

And and what I I just couldn't believe was that, you know, I knew that the woman's experience in this world of sex would have been so completely different than the way the men experienced it.

我只是迫切地想要找到那种声音。

And I was I was just desperate to find that voice.

我的意思是，还有哈丽特·威尔逊。

I mean, there's Harriet Wilson.

当女性像哈丽特·威尔逊那样写作时，她们主要是为了取悦男性读者，以激起他们的欲望。

And and when women write it like Harriet Wilson does, she's writing it predominantly for a male audience to a male readership to titillate.

但你知道，现实是，对许多女性来说，这会极其糟糕，而在某些情况下，又会非常具有赋权作用。

But you know the reality of this is that it's gonna be so bloody awful for women in many cases, and in some cases, to be very empowering for women.

而在这两者之间的每一个程度、每一种细微差别也都存在。

And and, you know, and and and every every degree and every shade in between those two things as well.

但从来没有人谈论过这一点。

And no one ever talked about that.

所以我打算写一部十八世纪的小说，再次运用所有那些手法和元素，但以一种方式呈现，让我们看到另一面——她讲述的是：这就是发生在我身上的事，我是如何生存下来的，而且，事实上，我憎恨这些男人。

So I thought I wanted to write basically an eighteenth century novel which used, again, all of those devices and everything, but did it in such a way in that we get that other side where she's talking about, well, this is what happened to me and this is how I survived and, you know, and actually hate these men.

我就那样躺在床上，任由他为所欲为，然后一切就结束了。

And and, you know, and I just lie there on the bed and he can do whatever he wants to me, and then I'm done.

然后，你知道，就是这种东西。

And then, you know, and it's that sort of stuff.

在很多方面，这真的是一种非常不浪漫化的性描写。

It's so it's really unromanticized sex in many ways.

因为，哈莉，这引出了我们这个播客一个长期存在的主题，那就是我写的是古代史，而基本上，你知道，我们几乎一无所知，而多米尼克写的是近代史，那里有太多资料了。

Because, Hallie, this this this brings up one of the the kind of long running themes of this podcast, which is that because I write about ancient history where basically, you know, we know almost nothing, and Dominic writes about recent history where there's so much.

多米尼克，你肯定接触过大量关于性的调查数据吧。

Dominic, presumably, you know, you've got all these kind of sex surveys and

是的。

Yeah.

非常多。

Tons.

各种政策之类的东西。

Policies and sorts of things.

没错。

Yeah.

所以，如果你要写一部战后英国的性历史

So if you're writing a history of sex in postwar Britain

已经有很多人这么做了。

Which lots of people have done.

材料一点也不缺。

Have no lack of materials.

多得很。

Tons.

而相比之下，是的。

Whereas yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

如果我们试图追溯，是的。

If we're trying to trace Yeah.

如果我们试图追溯性观念在十八和十九世纪期间的变化轨迹，哈莉的情况就有些模糊了。

If we're trying to trace the course you know, the way that sexual attitudes change over the course of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, Hallie's a kind of indeterminate.

因为那里确实有一些材料。

Because there's kind of material there.

但嗯。

But Yeah.

但远没有那么多。

But but not nearly as

像我们能找到的那么多。

much as we can find it.

你在哪儿找到的，哈莉？

Where'd you find it, Hallie?

你去哪儿找的？

Where'd you go to?

天啊。

Oh, god.

我的意思是，这些材料其实非常丰富，有很多日记、回忆录、信件，还有类似那种非常私人的东西，当你找到时，简直让人兴奋不已。

I mean, it just it's really well, lots of diaries and lots of memoirs and and letters and things like, you know, really personal stuff, which is just so thrilling when you find.

我知道听起来好像很刺激、很诱人。

And I know it sounds like, oh, you know, oh, titillating thrilling.

我的意思是，这种刺激在于，对我来说，这正是我研究性历史的吸引力所在，因为没有任何其他东西能像性这样深入人的心理和过去人们最深层、最私人的体验，了解他们内心世界和身体感受究竟是怎样的。

Mean, thrilling as in you get I mean, is to me, this is what drew me to studying sex historically, is that there is nothing else which cuts into the psyche and the deeply, deeply personal experiences of people in the past, of what it was like to inhabit their heads, of what it was like to inhabit their bodies.

因为，我的意思是，没有什么比性更私密的了。

Because, I mean, there is nothing so personal as sex.

你知道吗？

You know?

两个人在卧室里，或者更多人在一起时发生的事，无论在哪里，都如此——你知道，能揭示一个人的性格。

And what happens between two people in a bedroom or more than two people in a bedroom or wherever, you know, is so you know, tells you about the personality.

它能告诉你，你知道，他们的信仰是什么。

It tells you about, you know, what their beliefs are.

你知道，他们是虔诚的宗教信徒吗？

You know, are they religious?

他们害怕什么？

Are they what are they afraid of?

所有这些事情都会不由自主地涌出来。

All of these things just kind of come tumbling out.

所以我认为，这是研究一个人非常直接的方式。

And so it's I I just think it's a really really direct way into studying the person.

我有个问题想问你。

And here's a question for you.

你怎么能尝试呢？我的意思是，人们通常对自己的性生活撒谎，那么当你在他们的信件或日记中看到这些内容时，你怎么知道他们是否诚实？你是否假设在日记中，人们是坦诚的，还是他们可能在欺骗自己，或者欺骗某种假设的意图？

How can you try I mean, people are famously dishonest about their So own sex how do you know when people are being in their letters or their diaries, how do you do you just do you do you assume that in their diaries, for example, people are being honest, or might they be lying to themselves or to some putative reason?

有时候他们确实在撒谎，而这正是其中的一部分。

Sometimes sometimes they are lying, and that's part of it.

我的意思是，对很多人来说，性是一种表演。

I mean, sex is performance, you know, for for a lot of people.

但同样，这完全取决于语境。比如，读卡萨诺瓦的回忆录，和读卡罗琳·伦诺克斯夫人——她和妹妹一起，谈论婚姻中的性生活，开玩笑说她们不再是处女，可以谈论这些事情——的信件，完全是不同的体验。

And but, you know, again, it's all about context and what you know, reading Casanova's memoirs, you know, is it you know, is a completely different experience than reading the letters of lady Caroline Lennox, you know, who with with her sister, you know, who's talking about, you know, married sex and and and, you know, what it's like and joking that they're not virgins anymore and they can talk about these types of things.

所以你必须权衡这些内容。

And, you know, so that and you have to weigh it up.

而且，你知道，之间还有各种各样的其他事情。

And again, you know, there there are all sorts of other things in between.

我的意思是，威廉·希基的回忆录我觉得简直太棒了。

I mean, William Hickey's memoirs, I just think are absolutely fantastic.

还有博斯韦尔。

And Boswell.

我的意思是，我实际上想说的是

I mean, I actually I mean

博斯韦尔。

Boswell.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

所以

So

所以，我在封锁期间做的一件事就是追踪那些被埋藏的河流的走向

so so one of the things that I've been doing over the lockdown is following the lines of buried rivers across

全部

all

它们。

of them.

所以这是你可以做的事情。

So it's something you can do.

你可以步行。

You can walk.

所以你出去，沿着一条条

So you go out and you follow the line of a a

埋藏的河流走。

a buried river.

我一次又一次发现，红灯区基本上都在这些被埋藏的河流岸边。

And what I find again and again is that, basically, red light districts are along the banks of these kind of lost rivers.

所以我沿着布卢姆斯伯里沟渠走了一趟，它显然从布卢姆斯伯里穿过如今的斯特兰德大街，一直延伸到泰晤士河。

So I I followed the line of the Bloomsbury Ditch, which goes obviously from Bloomsbury over across what's now the Strand and down to down down to the Thames.

这曾是博斯韦尔的最爱之地。

And this was a favorite haunt of Boswell's.

他总是和他那口井待在那里，

He was always there with his Well,

斯特兰德。

Strand.

斯特兰德。

Strand.

或者

Or

因为如果你穿过斯特兰德，那里曾经有一片错综复杂的街道，不是吗？

Well, because the if if you go across the Strand, there was this kind of great snarl of streets, wasn't there?

我想那是霍利韦尔街，以作为色情制品商店街而臭名昭著，人们去那里买避孕套。

I think it's Holywell Street, which was notorious as the pornographer's Street where you go and buy condoms.

所以可以推测，博斯韦尔就是去那里买他的……那东西是什么来着？

And so presumably, that's where Boswell went and bought his what was it?

那种便宜的肠衣之类的。

Was kind of cheap gut or whatever.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

然后这一切都在那个年代被清除了。

And and then it all got swept away in the yeah.

我想是在19世纪90年代，然后被改造成了那种，你知道的，老女巫的样子。

I think in the eighteen nineties And and made into this kind of, you know, the old witches.

整个地方中最反犹的地点之一

One of the most antisemitic places of the whole of

伦敦。

London.

你这么说，但是，你知道，我的意思是，关键在于，你提到了斯特兰德街。

You say this, but, know, I mean, the thing is, you know, you mentioned The Strand.

斯特兰德街真是个有趣的地方。

The Strand is such an interesting thing.

实际上，伦敦卖淫活动的地理分布非常值得关注。

And actually, the geography of of of prostitution in London is is fascinating to follow.

因为斯特兰德大街一直是街头妓女的聚集地。

Because The Strand has always been a haunt of streetwalkers.

我的意思是，从十八世纪、十九世纪，甚至一直到二十世纪初都是如此。

I mean, really since I mean, eighteenth century, nineteenth century, even into, you know, the early twentieth century as well.

所以，但你知道，街头妓女的类型发生了变化。

So and and but, you know, the the type of streetwalker changes.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以，在八十年代左右，你几乎会遇到一种中下阶层的街头妓女。

So you have you have oh, kind of almost in the eighties, you're almost a lower middle class type of street walker.

然后，你知道，接着它们——我的意思是，我本来想说，她们有着不同程度的……

And then, you know, and then it comes you know, well, I mean, I was gonna say, they were varying degrees of

那么考文特花园的和那些高档的妓女？

So the Covent Garden ones and the posh ones?

在不同时期，情况各不相同。

They were well, various times.

再说一遍，你知道的，好吧。

Again, you know, okay.

所以，实际上，我需要重新

So, actually, I need to re

在博斯韦尔的时代。

Well, in Boswell's time.

在博斯韦尔的时代。

In Boswell's time.

博斯韦尔。

Boswell

好吧。

Well, okay.

让我解释一下。

Let me explain.

那么当时发生了什么？

So what was going on?

你知道，我的意思是，这就像一场流动的盛宴。

You know, I mean, it's it's it's a kind of movable feast.

关于性工作，有趣的是，你可以追踪到伦敦的发展以及性工作的迁移，这告诉你一些事情——首先，性工作是如何深深融入社会结构之中的。

And the interesting thing about sex work is that you can trace, you know, the development of London and and the movement of sex work, and it tells you something about, well, first of all, how integrated sex work was into the fabric of society.

丹·克鲁克香克曾写过，伦敦是建立在性工作之上的，我认为这在很大程度上是正确的。

And, you know, Dan Cruikshank has has written about how London was built on the back of sex work, and then, know, that is, I think, largely true.

有大量资金投入其中，而且你还可以通过性产业各部分迁移的地点来追踪伦敦的成长。

So much money was invested in it, but, also, you can you can trace the growth of London through where elements of of the sex industry relocated to.

例如，在博斯韦尔四处活动的时代，大部分性工作都集中在考文特花园。

So for example, at the time that Boswell was out and about, yes, most of it was centered in Covent Garden.

所以这是大约18世纪60年代、50年代、60年代左右。

So this is kind of '18 sorry, seventeen sixties, fifties, sixties.

到了18世纪中后期，更高阶层的性工作者和情妇们都已经搬走了。

By the time you're getting mid later part of the eighteenth century, the the really the better class of sex worker and the courtesans have all moved.

而这种迁移实际上从1760年代就开始了，朝着皮卡迪利街、圣詹姆斯地区尤其如此。

And the movement was starting really by the 1760s into Piccadilly, Saint James especially.

你有修道院，还有位于国王街和国王广场的高档妓院。

You had the nunneries, the high class brothels on King Street, at King's Place.

比如，当你走进圣詹姆斯广场、巴克莱广场这样的地方，你会看到某某公爵和某某伯爵的宅邸。

And you know, and you had, for example, you know, you go into somewhere like the Saint James's Square, whatever, Barclay Square, and you will have, you know, the duke of so and so, and and the earl of so and so's townhouse.

而马路对面，可能就住着某位贵族的情妇，也住在一栋城市宅邸里。

And then, you know, across the road will be somebody's mistress living in a townhouse.

所以，这一切都完全融合在一起。

So it's, you know, it's all completely integrated.

但我觉得更有趣的是这一现象更平凡的一面。

But what's actually I think is more interesting is the the more prosaic aspect of this.

它既不是最高档的，也不是最底层的。

It's neither the really high class nor the really low class.

而是像菲茨罗维亚正在发生的事情。

It's the like what's happening in Fitzrovia for example.

因为当菲茨罗维亚逐渐变得中产化时，你也开始看到为家具匠、杂货商、瓷器商等工作的女性，这些中产阶级女性从事性工作，住在像夏洛特街及周边所有街道上。

Because you know as Fitzrovia becomes really middle class you also get like the you know the the sex workers for cabinet makers and grocers and china sellers and, you know, these these middle class women who work as sex workers living in You know, I walk around places like Charlotte Street and all the all of the streets the around there.

我仍然会抬头看着这些建筑，心想，哦，那就是某某小姐住过的地方。

And, I I still look up at these buildings and I think, oh that's where miss so and so.

因为这早已深深融入了伦敦的肌理和地理之中。

Because it it was so it was so woven into the fabric of of London and the geography of London.

它被如此普遍地接受。

It was so normalized.

它完全是十八世纪日常生活中的一部分。

And, it was so much a part of everyday eighteenth century life.

哈莉，我可以问你个问题吗？

Hallie, can I ask you a question?

我可以插一句，问你个问题吗？

Can I jump in and ask you a question?

当然。

Sure.

所以你在说被普遍接受这件事。

So you're talking about being normalized.

这是一个人们会自愿选择的职业，还是说人们是被环境、贫困、甚至一颗痘痘等种种原因所迫而从事的？

Is this a profession that people would choose voluntarily, or was it one in which that which they would to which they were driven by circumstance or by penury or by a pimple or whatever it might be?

两者都有。

Both.

绝对是两者都有。

Absolutely both.

而且来自各种社会阶层，尤其是在十八世纪。

And from a variety of classes, certainly in the eighteenth century.

我的意思是，当你开始深入研究时，你会意识到，首先，社会所说的和他们实际做的完全是两码事。

I mean, this again, you know, when you start to examine this, you realize how, first of all, what society says and what they actually do are two totally different things.

这对我来说极其有趣，因为你会听到表面的口头赞同。

And that to me is utterly fascinating because, you know, you get the lip service.

当你阅读大量当时的道德说教、教育文献以及那些书籍时，你会发现。

You get you know, if you if you read, you know, a lot of the a lot of the moralizing tracts, education tracts, things in books that were written at the time.

你会听到，比如说，一个女人一旦偏离了美德之路，就彻底毁了。

You talk about, you know, oh, a woman falls off the path of virtue, and she's ruined.

而且，如果你仔细考察，这根本不是真的。

And and actually, if you examine, that's not true at all.

实际情况根本不是这样。

That actually wasn't the case.

所以你就会看到，像威廉·希基的朋友托马斯·沃恩这样的中下层阶级男子，他有七个女儿，是一名律师。

So you have things like, you have lower middle class girls who and I'm gonna use a friend of William Hickey's, Thomas Vaughan, who had something like seven daughters, and he was a solicitor.

在汤姆·希基的回忆录中有一段内容，他谈论的是汤姆·希基，也就是威廉·希基。

And there's this whole bit in Tom Sickey's memoirs, which he's talk he's talking about Tom Sickey, William Hickey.

威廉·希基的回忆录中，他提到了托马斯·沃恩的女儿们。

William Hickey's memoirs, where he's talking about Tom Svaughn's daughters.

他抱怨自己有这么多女儿，其中一些不得不沦为妓女。

You know, he's he's he's bemoaning the fact that he has so many daughters that some of them are gonna have to turn out whores.

他的意思是，他没有钱为女儿们准备嫁妆。

By that, means he doesn't have money for dowries.

这是一个问题：如果你自认为有向上流动的抱负，或者渴望提升社会阶层，你就必须有钱来推动你的女儿进入那个阶层。

And this is one of the problems is if, you know, if you are, if you see yourself as upwardly mobile, or if you if you desire to move up in a social class, you have to have the money to push your daughters into that social class.

如果你没有，就会面临一个真正的问题，因为你手上多了多余的女性。

And if you don't, you've got a real problem because you've got superfluous females on your hands.

而这种多余的女性问题，在这个国家直到十九世纪七十年代、八十年代才真正得到解决。

And that superfluous female problem isn't gonna be one that's really gonna be addressed until about the eighteen seventies, eighteen eighties in this country.

那么，这些女孩该怎么办呢？

So what do you do with these girls?

她们无法嫁给同阶层的男子。

They can't marry a man of their class.

因此，她们基本上只能成为妾室。

So they're gonna have to basically become like a concubine.

嗯。

And Mhmm.

所以在某些情况下，这就是发生的情况。

And so that's what happens in some cases.

你知道，然后一些贫穷的女性最终也陷入了这种境地。

You know, and then you have poor women who end up falling into it.

然后你还会遇到一些出生在妓院的女性和女孩。

And then you have women, girls who were born in brothels.

你知道，你谈论的是，你知道，你知道，家庭价值观。

You know, you you talk about, you know, you know, family values.

所有的家庭价值观也都是犯罪价值观。

All family values are also criminal values.

许多家庭通过性交易赚了大钱。

And and a lot of families made a lot of money through the sex trade.

女孩们在妓院中被抚养长大，成为性工作者。

And girls were raised in brothels to become sex workers.

所以并没有一个特定的入口。

So there was no entry point, specific entry point.

有很多入口。

There were a lot of entry points.

这就引出了我们在推特上收到的一个问题，汤姆，来自JPA，我想我们现在可以提出JPA的问题了。

So that raises a question that we got on Twitter, Tom, from JPA, which I think if we can ask JPA's question now.

JPA问，怀孕之后发生了什么？

JPA said, what happened about pregnancy?

所以这是职业生涯的终结吗？

So was it a career ender?

不是。

Wasn't.

JPA说，这在短期内对营销帮助不大，而且会导致被迫休假。

JPA says not hardly helpful short term for marketing, and resulting, know, it's a forced leave.

是的。

Yeah.

很难预防吗？

Was it difficult to prevent?

那这种情况会怎样呢？

So so what happens with that?

因为显然，这是一种职业风险。

Because obviously, that is an occupational hazard.

哦，确实如此。

Oh, it totally is.

而且，再次回到我写的小说，这一点我在小说中多次提到。

And this, again, you know, coming back to the novel that I wrote, this is you know, I address this in the novel quite a lot.

你知道，如果你的职业生涯处于没有有效避孕手段的时代。

You know, if your career well, at a time when there is no effective birth control.

如果你的职业依赖于频繁的性行为，而你又是一个育龄女性，你很可能会经常怀孕。

If your career is based on a lot of sex, having a lot of sex frequently, and you're a fertile woman, you're gonna get pregnant pretty regularly.

那你能怎么办呢？

So what what do you do?

现在，这正是人们不愿谈论的、真正隐秘的部分。

Now this is where the really, you know, the the bits that people don't talk about.

即使在那个时代，人们也对此闭口不谈，感到难以启齿，那就是堕胎。

And even people suppressed this and felt uncomfortable talking about it in their own era, which is abortion.

而我说的堕胎，并不是指我们通常所想的、怀孕四五个月后做的地下堕胎。

And abortion I'm not talking about, you know, what we think of as backstreet abortions, where you're like four, five months along.

但这种情况是，你知道，一个女人错过了月经。

But this is, you know, a woman is kind of missed her period.

在你感受到胎动之前，而胎动大约发生在三个月左右，那时你才会开始感觉到体内孩子的存在，当时人们认为那还不算孩子。

And before you feel the quickening, and the quickening is, I think, about three months where you start to feel the child inside you, it was believed that wasn't a child.

当时有各种各样的家庭偏方，据说可以清理子宫。

And there were all sorts of home remedies you could take that would, as they said, clear the womb.

事实上，这些偏方非常容易获得，甚至经常登在大多数报纸的头版上。

In fact, these were so readily available that they were advertised in the front page of most newspapers.

女性药丸。

Female pills.

我认为，一些霍珀氏女性药丸不久前刚被分析过。

I think some of these Hoopers female pills were analyzed not that long ago.

结果发现它们含有极高浓度的金属。

And they found to have very high levels of metals in them.

这些金属，你知道，你实际上是在服用一种低剂量的毒药，这会让你严重生病，身体就会把一切排出去。

And and that was metals, you know, it's it's What you're doing is taking a low level poison, which then makes you really sick, and your body expels everything.

而对于女仆来说，成为妓女的另一种经典方式就是你做女仆时，主人让你怀孕，然后把你赶出家门，流落街头。

And and for for servant girls, who are the other kind of the classic way that you become a prostitute is you work as a servant girl and then the master gets you pregnant and then you're thrown out in the streets.

经典。

Classic.

确实。

True.

presumably，她们是否也求助于堕胎呢？

Presumably, is is is this also are are they resorting to abortions?

是的。

Yes.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

我的意思是，情况也是一样的吗？

I mean, this the same way?

当时这种情况非常普遍。

It was, you know, it was so prevalent.

这里有个有趣的轶事，关于摄政公园开放时的情况，你知道，摄政公园里有一个草药园。

This is another there's an interesting anecdote about when Regent's Park was opened, and you know, they have a herb garden in Regent's Park.

他们发现，就在摄政公园和草药园开放后的第一天，所有的草药都不见了。

And they found that if like, I think within a day of opening Regent's Park with with the herb garden, all of the herbs were gone.

天啊。

Oh, god.

所以所有的草药都……

So all all

薄荷草被一扫而空。

the pennyroyal was stripped away.

这有多普遍，可见一斑。

That's that's how prevalent it was.

好的。

Okay.

好的，哈莉。

Okay, Hallie.

我的意思是，这真是一个惊人的观点。

That that I mean, that is an amazing note.

我觉得这是个休息的好时机。

I think on which to go for a break.

我们回来后，我有个来自迈克尔·罗森的问题，他说：是什么促使了从兰迪修复者转向性神经质的维多利亚人？

When we come back, I've got a question for you from Michael Ronson, who who says, what precipitated the shift from the Randy Restorationers to the sexually neurotic Victorians?

听起来像是口述历史，前提是这种描述有一定真实性。

Sounds like oral histories, assuming there's any truth in that characterization.

我问这个问题是因为我想换一种方式来表达，这源于我最近的阅读。

I asked that because I I want to put that in a slightly different way prompted by my own recent reading.

好吧。

Okay.

所以也许我们就先让这个问题悬着。

So perhaps we could just leave that hanging.

我们休息回来后再回过头来讨论。

We'll come back to it after the break.

你好。

Hello.

欢迎回到《历史的余音》。

Welcome back to the rest is history.

我们正在和霍莉讨论十八和十九世纪的性话题。

We are talking to Hallie about sex in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.

霍莉，我觉得，总的来说，人们对性以及男女关系的理解，在这一时期发生了极其剧烈的变化。

And, Hallie, I we have this sense that well, I mean, basically, the understanding of sex and the understanding of the relationship between men and women, it seems to me changes very, very radically over the course of this period.

所以，正如多米尼克所知，他可能没注意到，但我读过一本关于圣诞节的历史书。

And it's kind so I as Dominic well knows, he may not have picked up on this, but I read this history of Christmas.

天哪。

Oh my god.

汤姆，那太荒谬了。

Which that Tom, that is ridiculous.

那太荒谬了。

That is ridiculous.

我不是刚想过

Didn't I just think

所以我读了很多关于清教徒的东西。

So so so I so I read a lot about I read a lot of Puritan.

是的。

Yeah.

在十七世纪，人们明显认为女性比男性放荡得多，认为她们具有掠夺性。

And in the seventeenth century, you have a definite sense that that men think that that women are are vastly more licentious than men, that that that they're predatory.

你知道，只要给她们机会，她们就会试图和你上床。

You know, give them a chance, they'll try and sleep with you.

最近，我一直在读狄更斯的作品。

And recently, I've been reading Dickens.

所以我读了很多狄更斯的小说。

So I've been reading a lot of Dickens novels.

在狄更斯的作品中，妓女本质上是带着心的渣男，是堕落的天使。

And in Dickens, essentially, it's tarps with hearts, tarps prostitutes are fallen angels.

女性在道德上更优越。

Women are are morally superior.

她们本质上是无性的。

They're essentially kind of asexual.

总是男人是掠夺者，男人更性活跃。

It's always the men who are the predators, men who are who who are the more sexually active.

这在很大程度上反映了人们对性、卖淫以及男女相对本性的理解所发生的巨大文化变迁。

That's, I mean, a massive cultural change in terms of how people understand both sex and prostitution and the the kind of the relative natures of men and women.

那么，在这两百年间究竟发生了什么？

So what is what's happened over the course of I mean, really, that that those two centuries?

嗯，这本身就能写成一本书了。

Well, that's mean, that that's that's like a whole book in itself.

而且我认为，我们还有很多方式可以质疑这一点。

And I think and also, I think there are lots of ways in which we can we can question question this.

同样，我认为在某些方面，我想在真正回答之前稍微颠覆一下这个问题：你所记录、所谈论的，是17世纪到19世纪一个有文化的阶层关于性行为、实践和观点、意识形态。

Again, I think in some senses, you know, I wanna try to maybe subvert this question slightly before I really answer it, which is what you're recording, what you're talking about is the sexual behavior and practices and viewpoints, ideologies of a literate class of people from the seventeenth to the nineteenth centuries.

是的。

Yeah.

他们并不是多数群体。

They were not the majority.

因此，大多数人的生活方式以及他们所从事的行为和实践，很可能与识字阶层所书写的内容完全无关。

So how the majority of people lived their lives and the type of behaviors and practices they engaged in were probably in well, were entirely removed from what the literate classes were writing about.

所以我们实际上拥有两种历史。

So we have actually two histories here.

而且我们知道的一件事是，事实上，工人阶级的性行为并没有发生太大变化。

And and and, you know, so one thing that we know about is that, in fact, the sexual behavior of the working classes didn't really change that much.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以婚外性行为很常见，通常当一名女性怀孕时，就会施加某种压力让她结婚。

So there was sex outside of marriage, Often when a woman was pregnant, then the marriage would be that then, you know, there would be a certain pressure to get married.

很多时候，人们在结婚后会彼此抛弃。

A lot of times, people abandon each other, you know, after a marriage.

有时候人们并不结婚。

Sometimes people didn't get married.

实际上，没有人会去核实一对伴侣是否真的结过婚。

Nobody actually even checked necessarily to see if a couple had been married.

只要说你结婚了就足够了。

Just saying you were married was enough.

所以，你知道，有时候会出现一种情况，比如一个女人的伴侣离开了她。

And so, you know, sometimes you had a a whole a situation where a woman, for example, had her her partner left her.

他们可能结过婚，也可能没有。

They may or may have not have been married.

她可能和他生了一个孩子。

She may have had a child with him.

然后她又和另一个男人在一起，接着他们又分手了，你知道的？

Then she recouples with another man, And then they split up, make plans you know?

于是你就有一连串的伴侣。

And so you have a whole succession of partners.

但这与狄更斯所描述的维多利亚时代女性的行为方式完全不同。

Well, that's totally different from, for example, from, you know, what, you know, this this you know, what Dickens will be talking about and how Victorian women will have behaved.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以，这就是理想状态。

So that's the ideal.

而我所讨论的，是大多数人的现实情况。

And that, what I'm discussing, is is the reality for the majority.

现在回到你刚才提到的更核心的问题，关于性观念变迁背后的宏观议题。

Now addressing more to the point what what you were saying about this whole kind of the larger overlying issues, the overlying ideas behind how sex changed.

我的意思是，发生了很多事情。

I mean, there are lots of things that happened.

比如，十八世纪出现了爱情这一概念。

The it's the introduction of, you know, love in the eighteenth century.

还有兼容性、自然本性的观念。

This idea of compatibility, The the idea of of nature.

所以这就是卢梭。

So that's Rousseau.

是的。

Yeah.

卢梭。

Rousseau.

而且，你知道，这种观点认为性关系应该是伴侣式的。

And, you know, that that couples that sex should be companionate.

也就是说，你知道，有欲望，也有爱，而这两种东西应该完美地结合在一起。

That, you know, there's lust and then there's love, and and, you know, there's a perfect pairing of these two things.

但事实上，他们一直持续相信，至少到十九世纪早期，女性有着这种无法抑制的欲望，是女性充满性欲。

But it's continue you know, they continue to believe really through certainly the early part of the nineteenth century that women have this sort of unbridled lust, and it's women who are lusty.

事实上，你只要和一个女人发生性关系。

And in fact, all you have to do is have sex with a woman.

她失去贞洁后，就会变得欲求不满。

She loses her virginity, and then she becomes insatiable.

而男人的责任就是通过娶她来控制这种欲望。

And and then the man's duty is to kind of control that lust by marrying her.

但到了维多利亚时期，这种情况已经改变了吧？

But that's that's changed by the Victorian period, hasn't it?

其实，这种变化从那时就开始了，是的。

That starts well, actually, well that yes.

我的意思是，这种情况有了一点改变。

I mean, that has changed a little bit.

因为《大卫·科波菲尔》里的小艾米丽，众所周知，堕落了。

Because little Emily in David Copperfield, you know, famously falls.

但她即便如此，依然保持了纯洁，尽管事实上

But she still remains pure despite the fact that

是的。

Yeah.

而且，现在我们是

And I mean, but now but now we're