26. 女巫

我们三人何时再会，于雷电交加，或风雨之中？

When shall we three meet again in thunder, lightning, or in rain?

这是莎士比亚写过的最著名的话语之一，当然，由《麦克白》中的女巫说出。

Some of the most famous words ever written by Shakespeare, and they're spoken, of course, by one of the witches in Macbeth.

而女巫与巫术，正是今天《历史其余部分》这一集的主题。

And witches and witchcraft, these are the theme of today's episode of The Rest is History.

但等等。

But wait.

在我们继续之前，我的拇指刺痛，邪恶之事正朝此地而来。

Before we go any further, by the pricking of my thumbs, something wicked this way comes.

多米尼克·桑德布鲁克，你最近怎么样？

Dominic Sandbrook, how are you doing?

一如既往，汤姆，你还是那么犀利。

Sledgehammer wit, Tom, as ever.

我很好。

I'm very well.

谢谢。

Thank you.

你呢？

You?

你怎么样？

How are you doing?

利剑疾刺。

The rapier sharps slash.

所以，多米尼克，你对黑暗魔法感兴趣吗？

So Dominic, a a fan of the dark arts?

或许你是个实践者？

A practitioner, perhaps?

不是。

No.

我家里有很多关于黑暗魔法的东西，因为我儿子非常迷J.K.罗琳。

I've got a lot of dark arts stuff in my house because my son is massively into JK Rowling.

我知道J.K.罗琳在某些圈子里不受欢迎，但我们家绝对是罗琳的粉丝家庭。

I know JK Rowling is persona non grata in some quarters, but this is definitely a Rowling friendly household.

所以我家堆满了女巫、魔法和诸如此类的东西。

So my house is stuffed with witchcraft and wizardry and all that sort of carry on.

太棒了。

Brilliant.

嗯，这倒给我们提供了一些可以聊的话题。

Well, that that should give us something to talk about.

或许在这个播客的某个时候，我们可以谈谈《哈利·波特》。

It'd be good perhaps to get on to to Harry Potter at some point in this podcast.

但我们非常荣幸今天能邀请到我们的特别嘉宾苏珊娜·利普斯科姆，她不仅是电视明星，还是罗汉普顿大学的历史学教授，著有数本荣获奖项的早期现代史著作，其中最近的一本是《尼姆之声》，探讨宗教改革时期英格兰女性、性与婚姻。

But, we're very honored to be joined today by our special guest, Susannah Lipscomb, star of TV, who also happens to be professor of history at Roehampton University, the author of a series of award winning books on early modern history, including most recently, The Voices of Niem about women, sex, and marriage in Reformation Longadoc.

但她更符合我们主题的著作，是最近出版的《女巫之书》。

But she's also the author, more germanely for our purposes, of the recently published Lady Bird Book of Witchcraft.

苏西，很高兴见到你

Susie, so good

能有你真是太好了。

to have you.

好书名。

Great title.

是的。

Yes.

我们已经把杰克和吉尔和女巫联系在一起了。

We've we've moved on-site with Jack and Jill with witchcraft.

这是一系列很棒的作品。

Well, it's a great series.

我也写过一本，所以我知道这绝对是最高水平的学术研究。

I I've also written one, so I I know that it's the very highest quality scholarship.

关于女巫，你是先对早期现代史感兴趣，然后才涉足这个主题的，还是反过来？

And witchcraft, did was this a subject that you kind of got into on the back of your interest in early modern history, was it the other way around?

其实是反过来的，因为我的博士导师是罗宾·布里格斯，他是研究女巫的杰出学者，尤其关注洛林地区的女巫审判，而洛林是当时特别热衷于处决女巫的独立公国之一；我的学院导师是林达勒·罗珀，她研究过德国的女巫和女巫猎捕风潮。

It's sort of the other way around, because my supervisor for my doctor was Robin Briggs, who's a great scholar of witchcraft, who looked at witches, the trials of witches in Lorraine particularly, which is one of the independent duchies that was particularly keen on executing witches, and my college adviser was Lyndal Roper, who's worked on witchcraft and the witch craze in Germany.

所以，说实话，我差点就避开了巫术这个研究领域，因此最终我还是回到了它上面，这并不奇怪。

So, I mean, I barely evaded witchcraft, frankly, as my personal studies, so it's sort of not surprising at all that I've come around to it in the end.

有太多内容可以探讨了，我想苏西，最大的问题是：巫术是人类历史中的一种恒常现象吗？

So there's so much to get into, and I guess the big question, Susie, is witchcraft a kind of constant in human history?

我们是否一直相信女巫的存在？

Have we always believed in witches?

我的猜测是你可能会说，既是又不是，对吧？

I mean, I'm guessing you'll say kind of yes and no, will you?

是的，似乎我们一直相信女巫的存在。

Yes, we have always believed in witches, it seems.

我所遇到的最早案例——这更多是汤姆的研究领域，而不是我的——是古希腊。

So the earliest case that I've come across is, and this is far more Tom's territory than mine, is ancient Greece.

大约是在三月。

So it's about March.

当时有一位名叫莱姆诺斯的泰罗斯的被指控女巫，她因施咒和使用有害药物而受审，此后我们又在历史长河中一再看到类似情况。

There was an alleged witch called Theros of Lemnos, and so she was prosecuted for casting incantations and using harmful drugs, and then we see it appear again and again throughout time.

基本上，时间被一系列女巫案件所标记，无论你是谈论公元前30年，还是刚过公元前时期——虽然现在我们不再这么叫了，但你知道我的意思——我们正进入现代时期，而在盎格鲁-撒克逊时代、中世纪时期，我们都能看到这种现象。

Basically, time is punctuated by there being witchcraft cases, whether you're talking 30 BC or you know, just after the, you know, BC, or don't call it anymore, but you know what I mean, we're just entering the modern era, and we see this throughout the Anglo Saxons, we see it in the medieval period.

因此，我特别研究的时期是这些信仰转化为法律起诉的阶段，那时出现了一种特别严重的狂热，人们热衷于通过法律手段迫害女巫并处决她们。

And so the period I've particularly worked on is where those beliefs become prosecutions, where there's a particularly serious craze, I suppose, and people are concerned with trying to persecute witches under law and then have them executed.

女巫一直伴随着我们，贯穿了整个历史。

They've been with us throughout time.

从认为巫术无妨，只是人们的一种行为——虽然有点怪异，但仍在延续，转变为认为巫术是罪恶的、必须不惜一切代价根除的，这种巨大的转变是否存在？

Is big shift from thinking witchcraft was fine and it was just something that people did, it might be a bit weird, but it was kind of carrying on to thinking that it was sinful and must be extirpated at all costs?

我认为巫术从未被认为是可以接受的。

I don't think it was ever thought to be fine.

我认为它一直被视为越界行为，但转变在于人们开始认为，这不仅仅是造成伤害，而是带有恶魔般的意图，即与魔鬼缔结了契约，因此成为一种异端。

I think it was always thought to be transgressive, but I think the shift is towards seeing it, I suppose, as not just doing something harmful but that being infused with diabolic intent, that a pact has been made with the devil so that it is a form of heresy.

对。

Right.

我认为这就是转变所在。

I think that's the shift.

嗯。

Yeah.

因为我一直在想异端这个问题，因为中世纪常被R.

Because I I I was wondering about heresy because, famously, the Middle Ages described by R.

A.

A.

摩尔描述为一个迫害的社会。

Moore as a persecuting society.

关于异端，我们确实有明确的感受，比如多米尼克，我们之前讨论过卡特里派的问题。

And the definite sense you get with heresy, we Dominic, we talked about this in relation to the the supposed Cathars We did.

你会看到修士和博学的学者们回到古典时代，从中掠取素材。

Is that you get kind of friars, learned scholars who go back to classical antiquity and kind of plunder it for source material.

然后他们把这些素材打包，投射到人们身上，最终引发热潮。

And then they kind of create a package, and then they project it onto people, and it kind of catches fire.

我想巫术的情况也是如此，本质上到底发生了什么？

And I guess the it is what happens with witchcraft that essentially what is it?

到了十四世纪，尤其是十五世纪，教会开始将巫术与异端混为一谈。

It's by the kind of the the fourteenth century and then really into the fifteenth century that the church starts to conflate sorcery with heresy.

因此，人们假设如果你与魔鬼有往来，那么在某种意义上你就不再是基督徒，因此必须因此而被针对。

And so the assumption becomes that if you were having dealings with the devil then in a sense you are no longer Christian and therefore you must be targeted for that reason.

是的。

Yes.

到了十五世纪末，这一情况尤其通过一本著名的书籍《女巫之锤》得以实现，这本书由一位德国多明我会修士海因里希·克雷默撰写。

So it's the end of the fifteenth century and it particularly happens through the famous book Malleus Maleficarum with the Hammer of the Witches, which was written by a German Dominican monk called Heinrich Kramer.

他重印了最近发布的一份教皇诏书，其中称女巫为异端。

And he reproduced a papal bull that had recently been published that said that witches were heretics.

这正是正在发生的情况：巫术的威胁被提升到了一种超验层面，人们意识到它不仅威胁生命，更威胁灵魂。

So it's exactly that that's happening in terms of elevating the threat of witchcraft from being a local sorcerer to being something that is on a kind of transcendental level where you know there's this absolute threat to souls as well as lives.

因此，我认为这一点至关重要。

And so I think that's crucial.

而另一个转变是，一旦这种观念获得了教会（或所谓教会）的支持，它就开始在精英阶层中被接受，甚至出现了由精英成员、包括在位君主撰写的恶魔学著作，最终巫术被定为法律上的罪行。

And then the other shift that happens is that once that has the weight of the church, or supposed weight of the church behind it, then we see it starting to be accepted at an elite level, and indeed we even get demonologies written by members of the elites, including a reigning monarch, and we end up with seeing it becoming a crime under law.

所以发生了两种转变：它被视作异端，然后又被视作犯罪，这是十六世纪必须发生的关键变化。

So there's kind of two shifts, so it becomes seen as heresy, and then becomes seen as a crime, and that's a crucial thing that has to happen in the sixteenth century.

那么，为什么会在这些地方发生呢？

And why does that happen where it does?

当然，你提到了林达·罗珀，她写了一本关于德国巫术的优秀著作。

So, obviously, Germany is you mentioned Linda Roper, and she wrote that great book about witchcraft in Germany.

在英格兰，我们想到的是猎巫者总督马修·霍普金斯，而我们自然也会把巫术与苏格兰以及美洲殖民地的‘审巫案’联系起来，诸如此类。

And in in England, we think of it as, you know, the witchfinder general, Matthew Hopkins, and we obviously witchcraft to Scotland, and then the American colonies, the crucible, and all that kind of carry on.

但我并不知道它在西班牙或意大利等地也如此严重。

But I'm not aware that it's such a big deal in, you know, Spain or Italy or something.

这是否是那些在我看来似乎新教徒很多的地方？

Is it is it places where I mean, to a sort of layman, it would look like it's places with a lot of Protestants.

新教徒。

Protestants.

是这样吗？

Is Is that that right?

这确实发生在新教徒众多的地区，我认为这有助于理解，在那些新教特别激烈的地方，比如被称为清教主义的地区。

It certainly does happen in places with a lot of Protestants, and I think it helps, as it were, I think in areas where there's a particularly kind of hot form of Protestantism to be called Puritanism.

这意味着人们有一种斑驳的心态。

It means that people have a kind of piebald mentality.

他们以黑白分明的方式看待世界。

They see the world in black and white.

他们认为魔鬼无处不在，确实，在苏格兰、东安格利亚、埃塞克斯以及德国的部分地区，新教文化尤其激昂，这一点是真实的；但即便在天主教地区，虽然审判较少，但也确实存在审判。

They see the devil at work everywhere, and it's certainly true that in areas like Scotland, in East Anglia and Essex, and in parts of Germany we do have a particularly sort of inflamed culture around Protestantism, and so that is true, but there are trials although there are fewer there are trials in Catholic areas.

例如，我提到过洛林公国，这是一个大致属于天主教的地区，那里有许多审判。

So, for example, I mentioned Lorraine, the Duchy of Lorraine, which is broadly Catholic, and there are many trials there.

法国的审判并不多，整个时期大约有3000起，数量不算多，但西班牙也有一些。

There aren't that many in France, about 3,000 over the period, which is not that many, but there are some in Spain.

因此，天主教地区也存在审判。

So, there are trials in Catholic areas.

这并不像单纯区分新教与天主教那样清晰，我认为这是因为在这个时期，无论你是新教徒还是天主教徒，你都关心信仰上什么是错误的。

It's not quite so clear cut as just being Protestant, and I think it's because in this period, whether you're Protestant or Catholic, you're concerned about what is wrong in terms of faith.

宗教改革营造了一种关于末日、魔鬼是否在活动的焦虑氛围。

The Reformation has produced this kind of atmosphere of angst about the end days, about whether the devil was at work.

也许新教徒对此更为关注，但天主教徒也同样对此感到忧虑。

Perhaps it's slightly more the case amongst Protestants, but Catholics are certainly concerned about it as well.

嗯，苏吉，卡洛斯·埃雷有一段精彩评论，他说猎巫实际上是宗教改革时期最具有跨教派性质的事件，这是一种相当严肃的说法。

Well, Suji, there's a brilliant comment by Carlos Eyre who says that that hunting witches was actually the most intensely ecumenical event of the reformation era, which is a kind of sober way of putting it.

他提到，这几乎是神学中少数几个天主教徒会阅读新教徒著作、反之亦然的领域。

And he kind of talks about, you know, it's it's almost one of the few aspects of theology where Catholics are reading Protestants and and vice versa.

我在想，实际上，巫术狂热的高峰期是16世纪后半叶到17世纪，而这正是宗教改革后新教徒和天主教徒的教派认同急剧强化的时期。

And I I was wondering, I mean, essentially, the kind of the real peak of the witchcraft craze is latter half of the sixteenth century moving into the seventeenth century, and that's also when confessional identities among Protestants and among Catholics in the wake of the counter reformation are really intensifying.

而与此形成反差的是，你开始看到他们之间爆发战争，即宗教战争。

And, again, as kind of a counter effect of that is that you start to get warfare between them, religious war.

巫术的普遍性、巫术焦虑的增长，与天主教徒和新教徒在开战时所感受到的——他们正在参与一场善恶之间的宇宙之战——这种感觉之间，是否存在关联？

Is there a link between the prevalence of witchcraft, the growth, the anxiety about witchcraft and the sense that presumably both Catholics and Protestants have when they're going to war that they're engaged in some kind of cosmic battle between good and evil?

确实存在这种关联。

There certainly is.

确实存在这种联系，因为他们生活在一个无政府状态、精神混乱的时代，几乎没有人认为宽容是好事。

There certainly is this connection that actually they're living in a time of anarchy, spiritual anarchy, and you know pretty much no one in the sixteenth century and early seventeenth century thinks that toleration is a good idea, you know.

他们认为有一种正确的方式和一种错误的方式，必须根除那些错误的东西。

They think there's a right way and there's a wrong way, and you need to root out that which is wrong.

因此，这无疑是其背景所在。

So it's certainly that's the background to it.

我认为我们必须谨慎，避免认为这只是新教徒攻击天主教徒，这种情况实际上很少见，反之亦然；但总体而言，正如那句美妙的引语所表明的，当时所有人都在这么做，因为人们普遍认为女巫是一种威胁，因为他们更关注邪恶在世间作祟。

I think we have to be careful it's just to prevent against thinking this is Protestants attacking Catholics very few instances where that's the case, or vice versa but generally speaking it's that as that lovely quote made clear it's something that everybody's doing at the time that witches are thought to be a threat overall, because people are much more concerned about evil at work in the world.

他们在具体哪种信仰是正确的定义上存在分歧，但他们确实认为有对有错，而女巫显然站在错误的一方。

They differ on their definition of which particular version of faith is correct, but they do think there's a right and the wrong way, and witches are clearly on the wrong side.

苏珊，我们来谈谈女巫本身。

Susan, let's talk a bit about witches themselves.

所以，人们通常认为女巫是年长的、无子的寡妇，在村庄里处于边缘地位，而且这种情况通常发生在村庄里，而不是大城市。

So, the sort of standard view of the witches, I guess, is that they are women, older women, childless widows, who are marginal in their village, and it tends to be villages, right, rather than big towns.

这是否就是全部？这种说法对吗？还是说情况比这更复杂？

And is that all is that right, or is is it more complicated than that?

我的意思是，男性巫师真的存在吗？

I mean, do ever get a male witch, for example?

这方面有很多内容需要梳理。

So there's a lot to unpack there.

是的，巫师通常出现在村庄而非城镇，因为大多数人住在村庄里，对吧？

So yes, it tends to be villages rather than towns because most people live in villages, right?

所以，大约95%或更多的人口生活在村庄和人口少于400人的小地方。

So you don't have that many proportion like 95% of the population or more lives in villages and small places under 400 people.

确实，被定罪的巫师大多数是女性，而且是年长的女性。

And it's true that most witches that are convicted are women, and they're older women.

关键的是，她们处于更年期或已过更年期。

Crucially they're menopausal or post menopausal.

她们常常是寡妇。

They are often widowed.

她们已停止生育，不再具有生育能力，这些都非常重要。

They have ceased to have children, they're no longer fertile, and those are really important things.

之所以攻击年长女性，有很多原因。

And there are lots of reasons for why it's older women being attacked.

但受害者并不仅仅是女性。

But it's not just women.

例如，在1611年德国埃尔旺根严重的猎巫恐慌期间，有三十多人被处决为女巫，其中既有男性也有女性。

So, for example, particularly during the severe panics sixteen eleven, for example, in Erwangen in Germany there are four thirty people who are executed as witches, and they are men and women.

其中包括神职人员，甚至有一位因妻子被捕而抗议的法官。

They include priests, they include a judge who's protested about his wife's arrest.

有时，女巫——这在很大程度上偏离了刻板印象——竟是儿童。

Sometimes witches and this is pretty terrible deviation as it were from the stereotype are children.

同样，在17世纪20年代的德国维尔茨堡，据我所知，有四十多名儿童被处决。

So again in Germany in the 1620s in Wurzburg there are, I think it's more than 40 children who were executed as children.

在巴斯克地区也发生过这种情况。

That happens in the Basque Country.

在瑞典也是如此。

Happens in Sweden.

你有没有看过，那是

Have have you seen the it was

我一个朋友大约十年前为第四频道的《特写》节目拍了一部电影。

a friend of mine made a film for Dispatches on channel four about ten years ago.

我想叫《品味非洲的巫童》。

I think it's called savoring Africa's witch children.

我的意思是，我们现在确实在大幅进步，但这种情况发生在尼日利亚南部，那里新教主义变得非常激进，并与当地对精灵和恶魔的信仰融合在一起。

I mean, we're we're we're massively moving forwards now, but this is this is in in Southern Nigeria, which where, of course, has it's become a very radical form of Protestantism, but it's fused with local beliefs in spirits and demons.

在那里，有一种全新的福音派新教思潮，声称巫师无处不在，而儿童尤其容易成为巫师。

And there, there's a whole kind of strain of evangelical Protestantism that says that that witches are everywhere and that children are particularly prone to being witches.

被指控为巫师的儿童，最好的情况是被家庭驱逐，最坏的情况是被折磨致死。

And children who get accused of it get kind of, at best, expelled from the family, at worst, tortured to death.

我不禁想，这是否表明我们正在讨论某种普遍而恒常的现象，还是说正是新教主义、基督教本身在激发这种行为？

And I wondered, you know, is that showing that we're talking about something that is universal and constant, or is is it the fact that it's the Protestantism, it's the Christianity that is inspiring this?

或者那里究竟发生了什么？

Or what's going on there?

你觉得我们能一直追溯这些模式的历史吗？

Can we kind of trace the patterns all the way through history, do you think?

这个问题很难回答。

It's a difficult thing to answer.

我的意思是，最近确实发生过很多次猎巫事件。

I mean it's certainly true that we have there have been many witch hunts in recent times.

在八十年代末、九十年代初，南非有200人因涉嫌巫术被私刑处死。

So in the late eighties, early nineties there were 200 lynchings of suspected witches in South Africa.

2001年，在刚果民主共和国，官方统计的数字约为800起，但非官方消息称实际数字已高达数千起。

There have been in 2,001 in the Democratic Republic Of Congo there were officially it sort of figures around 800, unofficially we're told it's more running into the thousands.

巫师被杀害，也就是说，被暴民私刑处死。

Witches killed, you know murdered by lynching mobs, as it were.

沙特阿拉伯在2009年成立了反巫术部门，而且即使在最近，无论你放眼世界何处——尼泊尔、哥伦比亚、印度尼西亚、尼日利亚——都能看到类似情况。

Saudi Arabia created an anti witchcraft unit in 2009, So it's and and we've seen it more recently even, you know, wherever you look around the world, Nepal, Colombia, Indonesia, Nigeria.

所以这无疑是一个持续存在的现象。

So it's a constant for sure.

我想即使在英国，多米尼克，我不确定你是否研究过这个，那种仪式性的撒旦虐待，是的。

And I suppose even in in in Britain, I mean, Dominic, may I don't know if you've researched this, the the ritual satanic abuse Yeah.

丑闻。

Scandals.

发生在八十年代。

Of the eighties.

克利夫兰。

Cleveland.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

所以从某种意义上说，那也是一种女巫恐慌，对吧？

So was in a sense, that's a kind of witchcraft scare, isn't it?

是的。

Yeah.

我想你大概可以这么论证。

I suppose you could probably argue that.

我的意思是，显然我……嗯，我不太确定。

I mean, there's clearly I I don't well, know.

也许苏西会不同意，但我认为人类有一种永恒的倾向，那就是寻找替罪羊。

Maybe Susie would disagree with this, but I think there's a there is a human constant, isn't it, to look for scapegoats?

而社会中总有一些特定的人物最终成为民间恶魔。

And there are particular figures in society that end up being these folk devils.

所以年长的女性、儿童，经典地来说，青少年一代又一代地被视为民间恶魔。

So older women, children, classically, and teenagers tend to be seen as folk devils generation after generation.

所以也许令人不安的是，确实存在这种……我不太确定。

So maybe disturbingly, there is this I don't know.

苏西，我问你个问题，一个有点奇怪的问题。

Susie, let me ask you a question, a slightly weird question.

如果你被指控是女巫，你最好的脱身方法是什么？

If you were accused of being a witch, what's your best way of getting out of it?

那么，你该如何逃脱呢？

So how would you escape?

让我先谈谈关于青少年和老年女性的这一点。

Let me just first come to that point about teenagers and old women.

想想看，儿童、青少年和老年女性的共同点可能是他们更难被控制。

Think perhaps the constant with children and teenagers and older women is that they're people that it's harder to control.

我不确定这是否与此有关。

I wonder if that's something to do with it.

你最好的逃脱方式是什么？

How do you best escape?

实际上，有时候你可以通过认罪来逃脱，但这取决于你所处的地方，也就是你所处的司法管辖区。

Actually, sometimes you can escape by confessing to it, but it depends where you are, so it depends on the jurisdiction you're operating in.

在某些地方，如果人们认罪并悔改，他们就能脱身。

In some places people got away with it if they confessed and repented.

在塞勒姆，新英格兰，1692年爆发的审判中就发生过这种情况，那些拒绝认罪的人常常丧命，但通常通过指认其他人，或许能让自己脱身。

That happened in Salem, in New England, the trials in the sixteen ninety two outbreak, and it's those who refused to confess that died quite often, but often actually by naming other people that might be a way out of it.

对，没错。

So Right.

这有点令人沮丧，不是吗？

That's kind of depressing, isn't it?

但它是

But it's

嗯，是的。

like Yeah.

1930年代的俄罗斯，或者说是的。

Russia in the 1930s or Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

所以，你知道，如果你能指出大量确实参加过女巫集会或其他他们杜撰出的概念的人——因为很多时候，是审讯者的想法被被审讯者重复出来——那么你或许就有机会被赦免。

So, you know, if you can name people who were in large numbers who were there, actual sabbat or whatever they've come up with as an idea, because quite often it's the interrogators' ideas that are being reproduced by those who are being interrogated, then maybe you've got a chance of being let off.

还有那个水刑椅，那是真实存在的东西，还是只是儿童历史书里的虚构？

And was the ducking stool, was that a real thing, or is that a kind of children's history book invention?

这是真实存在的，但不是针对女巫的。

It's a real thing, but not for witches.

这是一种用于惩戒唠叨妇人的真正手段。

It's a real thing that's used for scolds.

就在我们看到越来越多的人被以巫术罪处死的同一时期，我们实际上看到了一种——该怎么说呢？

So in exactly the same period that we have a rise in the number of people being executed as witches, we see basically, there's a great there's a sort of how do we put it?

这一时期父权制的强化。

Intensification of patriarchy this period of time.

因此，那些爱说话、脾气暴躁或爱嚼舌根的女性，都会被当作唠叨妇人被淹水，但这本质上只是一种混淆。

And so women who speak out, who, are, you know, cantankerous or who are gossips, all these sort of things can be ducked as scolds, but it's basically it's just a confusion.

我们真正有的是一种叫做‘游泳测试’的做法，在英格兰被称为‘游泳’，詹姆斯一世在《恶魔学》中提到过：你把你的巫师——无论男女——脱光衣服，把他们的拇指绑到脚趾上，然后扔进河里，看他们是沉下去——抱歉，那是狗，你把他们扔进河里看他们会不会沉下去。

What we do have is what's called swimming, which is in England are swam, which is something that James I writes about in his demonology, which is the following: you've got your witch, male or female, you strip them naked, you tie their thumbs to their toes, and you put them in a river to see if they're going to sorry, that's the dog you put them in a river to see if they're going to sink

你很熟悉。

You're familiar.

还是浮起来。

Or float.

是的，是的，我的精灵就在附近。

Yeah, yeah, my familiars are nearby.

所以，如果他们是无辜的，他们会下沉，你知道，你希望他们能及时被拉上来以免溺亡；如果他们漂浮，那他们就是女巫，理由是他们的洗礼在水中不再有效，因为他们已经转向了魔鬼，因此水会拒绝他们。

So you if they are innocent, they will sink, and you know, you hope they're going to be pulled out in time to not drown, and if they float they are a witch, and the logic is that their baptism in waters no longer holds because they have turned to the devil, and so the waters will reject them.

对。

Right.

好的。

Okay.

关于拒绝洗礼、成为魔鬼的崇拜者这一点，这种观念认为你正在离开基督教信仰，某种程度上是在接受另一种信仰。

So on that that thing of rejecting your baptism and you become a worshipper of the devil, this idea that you are leaving the Christian faith and that you were in a sense are taking up another faith.

当时有一种非常流行的理论，认为这是某种幸存至今的古代异教的体现。

There was a very popular theory that this was an expression of a kind of ancient paganism that had survived Christianity.

我总是记得，小时候我父母有一本民间传说的指南书。

And I always remember my parents, when I was a child, had a book of kind of gazetteer to folklore.

他们有一段关于威廉二世在新森林去世的精彩记载。

And they had a wonderful thing about the the death of William the second in the New Forest.

据说他是被箭射死的，而这 supposedly 是一场撒旦仪式的一部分。

And this he'd been shot by an arrow, and this supposedly was part of a satanic ritual.

有点像《瓦基曼》那种风格。

Kind of Wicker Man style.

哪个《瓦基曼》？

Which Wicker Man.

对。

Yes.

我一直都想相信这个故事。

Which I'd always which I'd always wanted to I'd always wanted to believe.

但是，苏西，这并不真实，对吧？

But, Susie, it's not true, is it?

根本不存在一个从古代延续到近代早期、女巫们所归属的异教教派。

There was no such pagan cult lasting into the early modern period that witches were belonging to.

我可以很有把握地说，没有任何证据能证明这一点。

Well, I can say with great certainty there's no evidence to prove it.

我不能说它不真实，但我可以说支持这一说法的证据极少。

I can't say it's not true, but I can say there's perilous little to make the case for it.

但是，苏西，这就引出了一个问题。

But, Susie, that then raises the question.

那些女巫中真的有谁有罪吗？

Were there so were any of the witches actually guilty?

有没有哪个案子是确凿无疑的？

I were any of the cases kind of banged to rights?

他们确实曾与恶魔来往。

They actually had been consorting.

我的意思是，显然他们曾与魔鬼来往。

I mean, obviously, they had been consorting with the devil.

但他们自己认为自己是女巫吗？

But did they think they were witches?

我。

I.

嗯，他们有没有施过咒语？有没有所谓的精灵伙伴之类的东西？

E, had they been doing spells, did they have a, you know, a familiar and all this sort of business?

关于女巫审判，最令人惊讶的就是这个问题。

Well, is the amazing thing about the witchcraft trials, is exactly this question.

我们很多人看待这个问题时，正如一位历史学家所描述的，这是一种‘中心空洞的罪行’。

So many of us looking at this see this as one historian described it as a crime with a hole at the centre of it.

那里什么都没有，他们什么也没做，但显然有些人确实认为自己是女巫——至少从他们的供词来看是这样。

There is nothing there, and they're not doing anything, but clearly some of these people did think that they were acting as witches at least that's what the confessions seem to suggest.

当然，很多供词是在酷刑下获得的，但也有一些是自愿提供的，其中一些似乎确实表明了这一点；我们可以从心理学角度分析背后的原因，但有些供词确实表明人们声称自己见过魔鬼。

Now obviously there are lots of confessions that are extracted under torture, but then there are also confessions that are freely given, and some of those do seem to suggest that and we can psychologise about what's going on there but some of them do seem to suggest that people are saying they've met with the devil.

而琳达·罗珀的一些有趣研究则提出，我们所看到的是他们的幻想：很多时候，这些人都贫穷且被剥夺了权利，一无所有，于是他们幻想与魔鬼见面，魔鬼能让他们摆脱饥饿、匮乏和贫困——与魔鬼的聚会总是丰盛的宴席，或是大量的性行为，因为这些人从未被触碰过；因此，我们实际上看到的是他们所缺乏的东西。

And some of the interesting work, again actually from Linda Roper, has looked at the idea that what we're seeing is their fantasies, that quite a lot of the time these are people who are poor and dispossessed and who have very little, and they fantasise about meeting with the devil and him freeing them from hunger and from want and from poverty lots of feasting goes on with the devil or lots of sex, because these people are untouched, and so actually what we're seeing there is an idea about what they lack.

这是一个小冰河时期开始的时期，尤其是在十七世纪。

And this is a period when the little ice age is kicking in, particularly in the seventeenth century.

这是一个寒冷、因此饥荒、因此饥饿的时期。

It's a period of of cold and therefore of famine and therefore of hunger.

你认为巫术审判的升级与当时欧洲正承受巨大压力之间存在联系吗？

And do you think there is there a connection between the escalation of witchcraft trials and the fact that basically Europe is under massive stress at the time?

至关重要吗？

Crimatically?

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

毫无疑问，巫术审判堪称一场完美的风暴——虽然这个说法已被滥用，但它确实反映了多种因素同时发生：当时社会经济条件异常恶劣，人们忍饥挨饿；在16世纪90年代，连续四年暴雨不停，庄稼全毁，饥荒肆虐，面包价格飙升。虽然我们无法建立饥饿与巫术指控之间的直接因果关系，但显然，无论是字面意义还是隐喻意义上，正是在这种气候下，巫术和巫术指控才得以滋生。

It's certainly the case that we've got I think the thing about witchcraft is it is the sort of perfect storm, you know, it's an overused phrase, but it comes from all sorts of things happening at once, that you do have this extraordinary socio economic conditions where people are hungry, where in the 1590s you have four years where it basically rains non stop, and the harvests are destroyed, there's famine, and bread prices shoot up, and whilst we can't do any sort of bored causality between, you know, they're hungry and then the people are accused of witchcraft, clearly this is the climate both literally and sort of more metaphorically in which witchcraft is happening witchcraft accusations are happening.

我之前提到的罗宾·布里格斯，对邻里指控的细节进行了出色的研究。

And Robin Briggs, who I mentioned earlier, did really good work on examining the details of neighbourhood accusations.

许多指控都发生在邻里之间，发生在饥饿而嫉妒的人、自私且违背社区规范的人之间。

So much of this is happening between neighbours, between people hungry and envious, between people who are being selfish and not operating as community norms say they should.

基思·托马斯和艾伦·麦克法兰提出的一个经典情境被称为‘拒绝愧疚综合症’。

One of the classic scenarios that Keith Thomas and Alan Macfarlane came up with has been called the refusal guilt syndrome.

基本上，这是一位年长的女性，可能生活困顿，来到一位较富裕——尤其是特别富裕的住户门前，请求施舍。而在英格兰，由于教区已经开始提供救济，这些人可能认为自己已经尽了义务，于是拒绝了这位求助者。

So basically you have probably an older woman, somebody who is in need, going to the door of a richer particularly rich but richer householder, and asking for alms, and maybe in England because they've started giving you know alms through the parish they think they've already done enough, so they turn this person away.

她离开时低声咒骂，然后你知道，一头牛生病了，或者一个孩子死了，他们就指控她是女巫。

She mutters under her breath as she leaves, and then you know a cow gets sick or a child dies and they accuse her of witchcraft.

因此，人们对这些穷人有很多投射，认为他们一定很愤怒。

So there's a lot of projection onto these poorer people that they must be angry.

人们觉得他们一定是在针对富人，因为这关乎内疚。

There's a sense that they must be, you know, acting against the richer people, because it's about guilt.

所以我认为，人们又饿又愤怒，这产生了巨大影响。

So I think the fact that people are hungry and angry makes a big difference.

我想，这也提供了一种安慰，即这些可怕的事情发生是有原因的，而不是简单地‘倒霉而已’。

I suppose also it it kind of provides a reassurance that there is an explanation for these awful things happening rather than just, you know, shit happens.

不管怎样，说到这里，倒霉而已，这其实完全可以成为

Anyway, on that note, shit happens, which could really be the

我们的标题。

the most That should be our title.

这应该是我

That should be I'd

我们真的漏掉了这一点。

really We missed that out.

我们休息一下吧。

Let's take a break.

回来后，我们将继续与苏西探讨黑魔法。

And when we come back, we will return to the dark arts with Susie.

嗨。

Hi.

欢迎回到《历史其余部分》。

Welcome back to The Rest is History.

我们正在讨论女巫和巫术，并且收集了你们的所有问题。

We are talking witches and witchcraft, and we've got all your questions.

我们会继续解答这些问题，但首先，我自私地想向苏西提一个问题，那就是关于女巫的性别。

We get back to go through them, but very selfishly, I've got one question that I I would like to put to Susie before we get on to yours, and that is really to go back to the gender of witches.

因为你提到了《女巫之锤》，在那里，女巫被描述为女性。

Because one thing I you talked about the malleus maleficarum, and and there, witches are described as as female.

这是一个阴性名词。

It's a it's a female noun.

但在中世纪人们所阅读的拉丁文《圣经》武加大译本中，《出埃及记》里那句著名的经文——‘你不可容许女巫存活’——所用的词是malefikos，这是一个阳性词。

But in the in the Vulgate, the Latin version of the bible that people would read in the middle ages, the the famous line that's translated in the King James Bible, thou shalt not suffer a witch to live in Exodus.

这个词是malefikos，是阳性形式。

That word, it's it's malefikos, so it's a a masculine.

那么，为什么在中世纪到早期现代时期，人们对女巫的认知会从男性逐渐演变为女性呢？

And, again, just why is it that because it over the course of the middle ages into the early modern period, there seems to be this evolution of thinking of witches as masculine and then becoming female.

这背后发生了什么？

What's going on there?

《女巫之锤》是一部特别厌女的文本。

So the Malleus Maleficarum was a particularly misogynistic text.

作者将女巫设想为女性，这是其主导主题，甚至在当时也显得异常厌女。

So the writer conceived of witches as female, and that's the sort of dominant theme and it, you know, it would have been as even for its time surprisingly misogynistic.

但我们看到的是，人们普遍相信男女都可能成为女巫，有些地方被指控为女巫的男性甚至比女性还多。

But what we see is a belief that both men and women can be witches, and in some places there are more men accused of witchcraft than women.

例如，在冰岛，十七世纪被指控为巫师的人中有百分之九十二是男性。

In Iceland for example ninety two percent of those accused of witchcraft in the seventeenth century are male.

在俄罗斯，这一比例约为百分之六十八。

In Russia it's something 68%.

在爱沙尼亚，男性比例非常高；在诺曼底，男性指控者是女性的三倍；但在其他地方，比例则转向为五名巫师中有四名是女性，因为尽管人们认为男女都有可能被魔鬼诱惑，但女性被认为更软弱、更轻信，更容易陷入罪恶，尤其是性罪，因此在这一时期更可能被引离真理。

Estonia it's very high, Normandy the males outnumber females three to one, but elsewhere it shifts and it's more like four out of five witches are female, because whilst both men and women are thought capable of being seduced by the devil, women are weaker it's thought, more credulous, more likely to fall into sin, particularly sexual sin, it's thought in this period of time, and therefore more likely to be persuaded away from the truth.

那么，被指控的男性是边缘男性吗？

And of the men that are accused, are they sort of marginal men?

他们是独来独往的人、怪人，或是社会边缘人物吗？

So are they kind of loners and oddballs or people on the fringe?

还是他们可能是社区核心人物？

Or could they be people at the centre of the community?

在某些地方，他们确实更边缘化。

In some places they are more marginal.

因此，俄罗斯的案例似乎关注的是牧羊人或流浪者，那些四处游荡的人。

So, the Russian cases appear to be looking at people who are shepherds or vagrants, people who are moving around wanderers.

因此，我们确实看到一些边缘化的人物，但同时也看到一些非常主流的男性被指控。

So we do have some of that marginality, but we also do see instances of very mainstream men accused as well.

那么，D医生，伊丽莎白一世，

So how does Doctor D, Elizabeth I,

你

you

你知道的，他整天研究天使，做各种事情，他怎么就能逃脱指控呢？

know, who's busy looking at angels and doing all kinds of stuff, how does he get away with it?

我想他更像一个巫师，而不是女巫。

I suppose he's a sort of wizard as opposed to a witch.

到这个时候，女巫的定义是施行有害魔法，用魔法作恶，而他并没有作恶。

So the definition of witch by this point is that you're practicing maleficarum, that you're doing evil through magic, and he's not doing evil.

那么白魔法是可以接受的吗？

So white magic is okay?

是的，我的意思是，确实存在，但

Yes, I mean there's a certainly But

这仍然是个问题，不是吗？

it's still problematic, isn't it?

这仍然是个问题，而且两者之间的界限很容易被跨越。

It's still problematic, and the line between the two very easy to cross.

我想，他得到伊丽莎白一世的庇护是个原因，毕竟他和伊丽莎白一世一样，对炼金术非常感兴趣，热衷于寻找哲人石，正如格伦·帕里所写，关于迪伊的研究表明伊丽莎白一世在宫殿里设有炼金术实验室，因此我认为他追求的是一种得到国家认可的魔法。

I suppose the fact that he's got the patronage of Elizabeth I helps, I mean and he's operating to, just much like Elizabeth I did, very interested in alchemy, he's very interested in trying to find the philosopher's stone, as Glyn Parry's written about Dee and shown that Elizabeth I had alchemical laboratories in her palaces, so I think that he's pursuing a sort of magic, as it were, that is state approved.

而且因为这是公开的，我想他并没有隐藏什么。

And because it's open, I suppose he's not hiding anything.

他不是像在壁橱后面偷偷摸摸地做一样。

It's not like he's doing it, you know, in the back of a cupboard.

我的意思是，这不就是那种情况吗？如果你试图掩盖它，反而显得更可疑，而如果你坦率地说：‘我是个炼金术士，我在施法’，那就没那么可疑了。

I mean, isn't it one of those things that if you try to cover it up or whatever, it looks more dodgy than if you're, say, well, I'm an alchemist, I'm casting spells.

我确信这是对的，我认为这与他在社会中的权力地位有关。

I'm sure that's right, and I think it's about his level of power in society.

很多情况下，被指控非法使用这种力量的，恰恰是那些没有权力的人。

So much of this comes down to it's those who don't have power who are accused of trying to do something with this illegally gotten power.

好的。

Okay.

所以这引出了温策尔·罗瑟纳的一个好问题，他或他，我猜是男性。

So let's that brings up a good question actually from Wenzel Roosner, And he or he, I assume, is he.

我其实不太清楚温策尔是谁。

I don't really know what Wenzel is.

我对这个人一无所知。

I don't know anything about this person.

总之，温策尔问：普通女性会担心被指控为女巫吗？

Anyway, Wenzel says, would the average woman have been worried about being accused of witchcraft?

换句话说，你是否生活在对猎巫者的恐惧中，还是可以照常过日子，觉得这种事情永远不会发生在你身上？

In other words, are you living in fear of witch hunters, or could you just go about your daily life, you know, without assuming it would never happen to you?

我想这取决于具体的人、时间和地点，因为在某些时期，社会对女巫的担忧确实会加剧。

I suppose it depends who and when and where, because there would have been certain periods where the culture around witchcraft, the concerns around witchcraft, have been heightened.

因此，我认为即使是普通女性也可能被指控。

And so I think even an ordinary woman could be accused.

但我认为，巫术的名声是逐渐积累起来的，有时源于家族传统——你的家人，比如祖母或母亲，被认为是有巫术的，这需要多次指控才能形成。

But I do think that witchcraft reputations took time to build up, and sometimes they came from a sort of family tradition your family members, grandmother, mother thought to be witches, and it took many accusations.

并不是第一次就认定，因为如果你觉得某人是女巫，你必须确信之后才敢指控，对吧？

Wasn't on the first time, so because if you think someone's a witch, you need to be sure before you accuse them, right?

他们掌握着邪恶的魔法。

They've got evil magic at their disposal.

因此，我们常在审判记录中发现，有人提到‘二十年前发生过’、‘十年前发生过’这类事。

So we tend to find that in the trials we get references to this happened 20 ago, this happened ten years ago.

这说明人们一直在大量谈论巫术。

So that means people are talking about witchcraft a lot.

他们谈论巫术的频率远高于审判案例所显示的，因为有很多人根本没走到审判这一步。

They're talking about it much more than we have trial cases to show for it, because then there's going be lots of people who don't make it to trial.

但我认为，要指控某人，必须有相当充分的证据，这意味着你必须清楚别人是否认为你是女巫。

But I think you have to have quite a substantial body of evidence against someone to accuse them, so that means that you're going to know whether people are going to think you're a witch or not.

安德烈有一个后续问题。

There's a follow-up on that from a question from Andre.

有没有人被指控为女巫， presumably 被定罪后却最终脱身的例子？

Are there examples of people who are accused of being a witch and presumably convicted only then to get off?

所以，一旦你被定罪为女巫，就完了吗？

So basically, once you've convicted of witchcraft, was that it?

还是说你还有机会？

Or did you have a chance of?

有些人并没有被定罪，有些人也没有被处决。例如，英格兰著名的巫术事件之一是1612年的彭德尔女巫案，同一年在兰开夏郡还发生了所谓的索尔兹伯里女巫案。

There are people who aren't convicted and there are people who aren't executed, so there's an instance, for example, one of the famous outbreaks in England is the Pendle witches sixteen twelve, and in the same year in Lancashire, also in Lancashire, there are what are known as the Salisbury witches.

一名14岁女孩指控了三名女性，但后来发现这名女孩是被人教唆的，于是这三名女性被释放并宣告无罪。

There are three women accused by a 14 year old girl, and it's discovered that the girl has been coached and the women are set free and acquitted.

因此，确实存在无罪释放的情况，而且显然并非所有被指控的人都会被处决。我们估计，在这一时期，大约有零星的人被起诉为女巫，其中约有一半被处决。

So there are acquittals, and it's certainly true that not everyone is executed, so we think there are about zero people who are prosecuted as witches in this period, and about half of those are executed as witches.

所以，你还是有可能脱身的，换句话说，可以洗清自己的清白。

So you it is possible to get away with it, as it were, get away with innocence.

你提到了彭德尔女巫审判，凯恩·卡里斯尔就此事提了一个问题。

You mentioned the Pendle witch trials, and Kane Carlisle asked a question about that.

所以凯恩说，你能谈谈巫术审判与英国宗教改革之间的联系吗？

So Kane says, can you talk about the witch trials and the links with the English reformation?

顺便说一句，彭德尔山是封锁期间散步的绝佳去处，凯恩也这么说。

On a side note, Pendle Hill is a stunning place to go for a lockdown walk, Kane also said.

这让我觉得可疑。

Suspicious to me.

不。

No.

非常可疑。

Very suspicious.

但关于英国宗教改革的联系，这到底指的是什么？

But So the links with the English reformation, what's all this about?

我的意思是，我觉得那里发生的远不止是与英国宗教改革的联系。

I I mean, I think there's a lot more going on than links to the English reformation there.

我想，和往常一样，我们背后有着宗教变革的背景。

I suppose, as usual, we've got the we've got a background of religious change.

那么这是什么时候？

So when is this?

这是1612年，关键的是，苏格兰的詹姆斯六世已经成为英格兰的詹姆斯一世，而苏格兰的詹姆斯六世曾在1597年写过一本名为《恶魔学》的书，书中给出了如何寻找女巫的指导。

This is 1612, so crucially I suppose what's happened is that James the sixth of Scotland has become James the first of England, and James the sixth of Scotland had written a book called Daemonology in 1597 in which he had given people instructions on how to find witches.

因此，我们正处于一个新教徒登上英格兰王位的时期，而那些被认为从事巫术的人，正受到最高层——虽然并非君主本人——的默许，人们觉得有正当理由去追捕女巫。

And so we're in a period in which this Protestant has come to the throne of England, and those who are thought to be practising witchcraft are being supported at this you know, seriously elite level, not at the level of the monarch, there is a sense that people can rightfully pursue witches.

所以这也就是《麦克白》的背景之一，对吧？

And so that's part of the background for Macbeth, isn't it?

是的，确实如此，而且

It is, it is absolutely, and

我们正是以这个开头的。

which we opened with.

没错。

That's right.

是的，正是如此，《麦克白》写于1590年代，恰逢当时在北贝里克发生的审判时期，而当时的詹姆斯六世亲自监督了这些审判。

Yes, exactly, it's written in the 1590s precisely at the sort of time that there are trials in the 1590s in North Berwick, which James the James the sixth at the time oversees.

因此在1612年，人们在这个氛围中指控巫师，其中一位名叫老德姆迪克的人已经被指控为巫师长达五十年。

So in 1612 we've got witches who are being accused in that climate, but one of them who's known as Old Demdike has been accused of being a witch for fifty years.

所以这并不仅仅关乎当时的环境。

So it's not just about those circumstances.

人们长期以来都认为她是巫师，而且她与一些我们可能探讨的巫术观念密切相关，比如我们可能会联想到伏都教——老德姆迪克会制作泥塑人偶，并将针插进去，以此诅咒并伤害她要报复的人。

People have been thinking of her as a witch for a long time, and there are lots of associations with some of the ideas about witchcraft that we might pursue, like we might think of it as even voodoo, for example, Old Demdite makes these clay figures that she sticks pins into that will injure the people that she's cursing.

这对英格兰来说是一个非常有趣的案例，因为其规模在英格兰相当庞大：共有12人被指控巫术，其中10人被处决，而我提到的老德姆迪克，即伊丽莎白·桑德兰，死于狱中。

So, it's a really interesting case for England because it's quite large scale for England, It's sort of 12 people accused of witchcraft and 10 of them are executed, and the one I've mentioned, Old Demdike, Elizabeth Southern dies in jail.

与德国的规模相比，这不算什么，但在英格兰已经算是相当大的事件了。

It's nothing by comparison to the scale of things in Germany, but it's quite big for England.

明白了。

Right.

我们现在来听斯蒂芬·克拉克的另一个问题。

We've got another question from Stephen Clark going forward now.

英国群岛何时，如果曾经有过，以及为何出现了对魔法和超自然现象的普遍信仰显著衰退？

When, if ever, and why did the British Isles see a significant decline in popular belief in magic and the supernatural?

这是一个巨大的问题。

That's a huge question.

我的意思是，让我们缩小一下范围。

I mean, let's narrow that down.

是什么过程导致了对巫术的信仰，不仅在英国，而是在整个欧洲开始消退？

What's the process by which the belief in witchcraft in, not just in Britain, across Europe starts to fade?

我想我们可以说，在十七世纪后期和十八世纪初，人们对谁可以被定为巫师的看法发生了变化。

So I suppose we could say that in the later seventeenth century and early eighteenth century we see a changing idea about who can be convicted of witchcraft.

这并不完全等同于人们停止相信巫术，我不确定人们是否真的停止了相信。

It's not quite the same thing as people stopping believing in witchcraft, and I'm not sure that people necessarily did.

我想我们看到一些变化的迹象，与科学革命所谓的启蒙运动有关，但主要的变化体现在对证据的信念上。

I suppose we see some evidence of change in terms of what scientific revolutions are called, the enlightenment perhaps we see changes there, but chiefly what we see evidence of is changes in beliefs about evidence.

一个人被定为巫师的依据是什么？

What are the grounds on which someone can be convicted of witchcraft?

与此同时，在美国的塞勒姆女巫审判中，人们仅凭所谓的‘幽灵证据’——即指控者被该巫师的幽灵附身——以及他们自己的供词来定罪；而在英国的巡回法庭审判中，证据显示，除了被告自己的供词外，别无其他证据，而这已不足以定罪，这是一个根本性的转变，因为六十年前，供词本身还是定罪巫师的关键依据。

And at the same time as we have in America, in the Salem witch trials, have people who are being convicted on the strength of what are known as spectral evidence, so that those who are accusing them are possessed by the spectre of this witch, and also on their own confessions, we have the evidence from the home assizes, the court circuit of trials, saying actually there's no evidence against them apart from their own confession, and this isn't good enough, and that's a radical change, whereas sixty years earlier it had been the strength of the confession that had convicted witches.

因此，这更多是关于证据标准的变化，而非信仰的转变，仍有一些人相信巫术，我们甚至看到在十八世纪，当精英阶层不再通过法律手段追捕巫师时，民众却会组织暴民去追捕他们。

So it's more about that than about a change in beliefs, and some people still do believe in witchcraft, and we see some people who are pursuing witches when the members of the elites won't do it at law, they're going to pursue them with a mob in the eighteenth century.

但英格兰最后一位因巫术被处决的人是在1685年，苏格兰则是在1722年。

But the last person to be executed for witchcraft is in England in 1685 and in Scotland in 1722.

因为在二十世纪，人们认为背后存在一种以女性为中心的异教信仰。

Because in the twentieth century, mean, that that idea that there was a kind of pagan, often female centered religion in the background

威卡教。

A Wicca.

基督教神话和托姆。

Of the Christian mythic and Tom.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.