27. 图坦卡蒙

欢迎来到《余下皆为历史》，这档播客无需疫苗通行证，即可自由穿越时空界限。

Welcome to the rest is history, the podcast that needs no vaccine passport to roam freely across the boundaries and the centuries.

今天，我们将回到三千五百年前。

And today, we're heading back in time three and a half thousand years.

我们将从一个八岁登基的男孩说起，他随后迎娶了自己的同父异母妹妹。

We're gonna be starting by talking about a boy who took the throne in Egypt when he was about eight years old and proceeded to marry his half sister.

还是说，事实并非如此？

Or did he?

他的一生充满了重重谜团。

So much of his life is shrouded in mystery.

我们的主题——至少是我们将要开启的话题——当然是图坦卡蒙，自霍华德·卡特九十九年前发现他的陵墓以来，他就一直俘获着我们的想象力。

Our subject, or at least the subject that we're going to kick off with, is of course Tutankhamun, who's captivated our imaginations since Howard Carter discovered his tomb ninety nine years ago.

但当然，图坦卡蒙的意义远不止于那个男孩或他的陵墓。

But, of course, there's more to Tutankhamun than the boy himself or the tomb.

汤姆·霍兰德与我同行。

Tom Holland is with me.

汤姆，我知道你对这个话题非常了解，而且从你还是个孩子时就一直着迷。

Tom, this is a subject I know you know loads about and has fascinated you since you were a kid.

我们先聊聊图坦卡蒙吧，因为他是那位法老，没错。

Let's start with just Tutankhamun because he's the one pharaoh Yeah.

每个人都知道的那位法老。

That everybody has heard of.

你认为是什么让他如此吸引人们的想象力？

What is it about him, you think, that that has seized their imagination?

没错。

Yeah.

他是远超其他法老的最著名的一位。

He's the most famous pharaoh by miles.

然而，当他活着的时候，他的统治时间并不长。

And yet, as a when he was alive, he he didn't reign for very long.

他是一位非常默默无闻的法老。

He was very obscure pharaoh.

当然，他之所以出名，是因为他是那位墓中满是珍宝、幸免于盗贼劫掠的法老。

And the reason, of course, that he is famous is that he is the pharaoh whose, tomb full of treasure survived the depredations of robbers.

因此，当我们想到法老们的辉煌、那片金色的国度时，我们会想到图坦卡蒙，因为只有他让我们得以一窥那个伟大文明令人惊叹的财富、精致与美丽。

And so when we think about the glory of the pharaohs, this kind of golden realm, we we we think of Tutankhamun because there we get a glimpse of the incredible wealth, the sophistication, the, the the beauty of that incredible civilization.

但除此之外，我认为还有两个原因让图坦卡蒙如此著名，他的故事如此令人难忘。

But on top of that, I think there are two further reasons why Tutankhamun is so famous and why his story is so haunting.

第一个原因是他墓葬被发现的过程。

The first is the story of how it was found.

霍华德·卡特发现这座墓穴的经过，可以追溯到数年乃至数十年前，这几乎是最后的希望。

So the process by which Howard Carter came to uncover the tomb, you know, it it goes back years and decades, and it's kind of the last gasp.

霍华德·卡特即将失去资金支持，就在这时，他发现了阶梯，他们拂去尘土，一路向下。

Howard Carter is about to have his funding cut, and then he discovers the stairway, and they peel away this the dust, and they get down.

有一扇门，而且完好无损。

There's a door, and it's intact.

还有关于诅咒等各种传说。

And you've got the story of the the curse and everything.

这太棒了。

So that's brilliant.

但我认为，从历史角度来看，更令人着迷的是，图坦卡蒙的模糊性。

But I think even more than that, what makes it fascinating from the historical point of view is that Obscurve Tutankhamen is.

他是埃及历史上最非凡、最奇特、最神秘时期的一位关键人物，这一时期与可能是他父亲的法老阿肯那顿有关，他娶了耶赫。

He is an actor in what is perhaps the most remarkable, extraordinary, enigmatic period in Egyptian history, which is associated with the the guy who was probably his father, a a pharaoh called Akhenaten, who was married to Yeah.

一位面容几乎与图坦卡蒙一样著名的王后——纳芙蒂蒂。

A queen whose face is almost as famous as Tutankhamun's Nefertiti's.

阿肯那顿之所以著名，是因为他开启了一场极其非凡的革命，这场革命如此震撼和令人不安，以至于埃及人将他的名字彻底抹去。

And Akhenaten is famous as, the pharaoh who essentially initiates an entirely exceptional process of revolution that was so shocking and upsetting to the Egyptians that they buried his name in oblivion.

图坦卡蒙的名字也被一同抹去，这正是他的陵墓得以幸存的原因——因为他被遗忘了。

And Tutankhamun's name was buried as well, and that's basically why his tomb survived because he was forgotten about

是的。

it.

别告诉我们阿肯那顿做了什么，因为对于不了解的听众来说，这可以留到我们深入讲述阿肯那顿的故事时再作为重大揭秘。

Don't tell us what Akhenaten did because for listeners who don't know, that can be our big reveal later on when we get into the Akhenaten story.

因为我同意你的观点。

Because I agree with you.

我认为阿肯那顿的故事无疑是整个世界历史上最有趣的故事之一，我说的是长达数千年的历史。

I think the Akhenaten story is one of the I think it's without any question, of the single most interesting stories in all world history, and I'm talking about thousands of years.

但让我们先聚焦一下霍华德·卡特。

But let's just focus for a second about Howard Carter.

霍华德·卡特的故事很有趣，对吧？

Now Howard Carter's story, it's interesting, isn't it?

因为这个故事所有孩子都学过，尤其是英国的孩子。

Because it's one that all children learn, certainly all British children.

你觉得是什么让这个故事如此特别？他当时为卡纳冯勋爵工作。

And what is it about it do you think that's you know, he's working for Lord Carnarvon.

我记得我小时候读的那些书里就讲过这个故事。

I mean, I can remember this from the kids I read as a from the books I read as a kid.

你知道，他为卡纳冯勋爵工作，还流传着关于诅咒的故事，比如开罗的狗狂吠之类的

You know, he's working for Lord Carnarvon, and there's this story about the curse and the dog barking in Cairo or whatever or

没错。

That's right.

死亡和诸如此类的事情。

Dying and all this sort

是的。

of Yes.

所以，你能告诉我们吗？我的意思是，你们对这个的了解远比我多。

So so how much tell us I mean, you all know much more about this than me.

给我们讲讲这一切的背景吧。

Tell us some of the sort of background to all this.

那么，卡特当时是做什么的？

So Carter was what?

他是一名专业的考古学家吗？

He was a professional archaeologist?

不是。

No.

不。

No.

他不是。

He wasn't.

这正是这件事的浪漫之处，他原本是一名插画师，年轻时前往埃及。

And this is part of the romance of it, is that he was an illustrator, and he went out as quite a young man, to Egypt.

在那里，他遇到了名叫弗林德斯·皮特里的杰出人物，他是一位考古学家。

And there he met, the brilliantly named Flinders Petrie, who who was an archaeologist.

弗林德斯·皮特里当时正在一个叫阿玛纳的遗址工作，那里位于卢克索和开罗之间。

And Flinders Petrie was working at a site called Amarna, which is about halfway between Luxor and Cairo.

别提前透露阿玛纳的事。

And Don't spoil the reveal by

告诉我们阿玛纳的情况。

telling us about Amarna.

我不会说的。

I won't.

但是，这就是霍华德·卡特立刻被吸引的部分原因，这是一座以前从未被挖掘过的埋藏城市，所以算是处女地。

But, so this is a part of what Howard Carter immediately gets gripped by and and and this is a buried city that hasn't been excavated before, so it's kind of virgin territory.

卡特负责为这些做插图，他就完全迷上了考古。

And Carter is doing the illustrations for this, and he just get completely gets the bug.

他留了下来。

He stays on.

他最终被雇佣了。

He, he ends up being employed.

当时法国人出于某种复杂的殖民原因，掌管着埃及的古物服务部门。

The French at the time are running the antiquity service in Egypt for kind of complicated colonial reasons.

而卡特则受雇于这个殖民时期的法国机构，基本上担任古物监管人，直到他与一些法国游客发生冲突——这些游客对一名埃及人表现得极其无礼。

And Carter is, is employed by this, colonial French agency, basically, to to as a superintendent of antiquities, until he gets into a punch up with some French tourists who are essentially being incredibly rude to an Egyptian.

卡特站在了埃及人一边，并因此被解雇。

And Carter takes the Egyptian side and gets dismissed for this.

所以这种感觉——这真是个不错的故事。

So the sense that That's a good story.

是的。

Yeah.

卡特站在正义的一边，但他是个脾气古怪、难以相处的人。

It's so so so Carter is kind of on the side of the angels, but he's a he's a temperamental difficult man.

从那时起，他一直留在埃及，基本上把自己租给前来埃及的贵族、亿万富翁、美国人、英国人等，这些人来到埃及后，购买了在某些区域进行发掘的权利，并雇佣卡特。

And from that point on, he stays out in Egypt, and he basically hires himself out to visiting grandees, billionaires, Americans, British, whoever, who essentially coming to Egypt, and, they get get they they buy kind of the right to excavate certain areas, and they employ Carter.

有一位名叫西奥多·戴维斯的美国百万富翁来到帝王谷，卡特帮助了他。

And there's a guy called Theodore Davies, who's an American millionaire who comes to the Valley Of The Kings, and Carter helps him out.

西奥多·戴维斯发现了许多令人着迷的墓穴。

Theodore Davies discovers all kinds of fascinating tombs.

但他发现的一个墓穴特别引人注目，即KV55——帝王谷55号墓，这是一座充满谜团的墓葬，里面肯定有一具木乃伊。

He he he but one in particular, K V 55, so King Valley Valley Of The Kings 55 is is an enigmatic tomb that I'm sure will come to with a mummy in it.

不清楚这具木乃伊是男性还是女性。

It's unclear whether it's male or female.

似乎曾发生过某种亵渎行为。

It seems to there seems to have been some process of desecration going on.

没人能确定。

No one's quite sure about it.

戴维斯于1912年发现了它。

Davis, discovers this in 1912.

然后他认为，是1987年吗？

He then thinks that, or is it 1987?

记不清了。

Can't remember.

总之，我们得查一下。

Anyway, we'll have to check.

于是他断言，整个帝王谷的每一座墓穴都已被发现。

He then reckons that that the whole of the Valley Of The Kings has every tomb has been discovered.

但卡特知道图坦卡蒙与阿玛纳之间存在某种联系，这一点我们稍后会谈到，因此他特别意识到图坦卡蒙的陵墓尚未被发现，这可能是唯一尚未被发现的墓穴。

But Carter, because there is a link between Tutankhamun and Amarna that we'll come to, he's particularly aware of the fact that Tutankhamun's tomb has not been found, that this is the one tomb that might be discovered.

所以当卡纳冯勋爵来到这里时，他是为健康而来，你知道，埃及的气候被认为非常有益健康。

And so when lord Carnarvon comes out, who is is there for his health, you know, the Egyptian climate is seen as being very healthy, he comes out.

他雇佣了卡特。

He employs Carter.

卡特说，看。

Carter says, look.

我们去找图坦卡蒙吧。

Let's go for Tutankhamun.

他们不停地挖掘，却一无所获。

And they dig and they dig and they dig, and they don't find it.

岁月流逝，到了1922年，卡纳冯对卡特说，看。

And years go by, and 1922 comes around, and Carnarvon says to Carter, look.

这将是最后一个季节。

This is gonna be the last season.

卡特回答，好吧。

And Carter goes, okay.

这就是危机所在。

And that's the jeopardy.

然后，卡特发现了它，他不得不等待卡纳冯勋爵过来。

And then Carter, you know, Carter discovers it, and he he has to wait for Lord Carnarvon to come over.

他们悄悄下去，没有告诉任何人，卡特稍微打开了那扇门，卡纳冯站在他身后，问：‘你能看到什么吗？’

They go down secretly without telling anyone, and Carter kind of opens up the the the the door, and the Carnavon's behind him and says, you know, can you see anything?

卡特沉默了一会儿，然后说：‘太棒了。’

And Carter says you know, there's this pause, then he says, wonderful.

我能看见东西。

I can see things.

我能看见奇妙的东西。

I can see wonderful things.

这种浪漫感令人难以置信。

And the romance of it is so incredible.

这正是人们想象中考古学家生活的样子。

It's and it's it's it's the kind of the paradigm of what people imagine an archaeologist's life is is like.

但实际情况从来不是这样的，对吧？

But it never is, isn't it?

我的意思是，这正是悲剧所在。

I mean, that's the that's the tragedy.

从来都不是这样的。

It never is.

而且没有任何其他考古学家有过这种经历。

And no other archaeologist ever has that.

没有。

No.

没有。

No.

我的意思是，没有任何考古学家曾经拥有过像霍华德·卡特那样的经历。

I mean, no no archaeologist has ever has has ever had that kind of Howard Carter experience.

然后你再加入诅咒的故事，据说有个叫亚瑟·韦格尔的人，是卡特的竞争对手，受雇于《每日邮报》多米尼克。

And then you throw into the mix the story of the curse, which is that, the story goes, there's there's this guy who is a rival of, of Carter's called Arthur Weigel, who was employed by the Daily Mail Dominic.

所以，他完全是最低层次的记者，来报道这次发掘。

So very much the lowest of the low, to cover the, to cover the excavation.

卡特和卡纳冯将独家报道权给了《泰晤士报》。

And Carter and Carnarvon has given exclusive rights to the Times.

所以魏格尔就在那里。

So Weigel is there.

他对卡特的这一重大发现感到嫉妒。

He's resentful of Carter for this great find.

他越界了。

He's crossed

在二十世纪二十年代，它们属于同一个集团。

They were owned by the same group in those days in the nineteen twenties.

这就是讽刺之处。

That's the irony.

他意识到《泰晤士报》拥有独家报道权。

He's crossed that The Times has got the exclusive.

于是他看到卡纳冯进去，据说他曾说，如果卡纳冯以那种状态进去，我给他六周寿命。

And so he sees Carnarvon going in, and he's supposed to have said, if he goes in in that mood, I give him, you know, six weeks.

然后传说他在刮胡子时割伤了自己。

And then the story goes that he nicks himself shaving.

伤口感染了。

It gets infected.

据说这个割伤正好与图坦卡蒙脸上发现的划痕完全吻合。

And this nick supposedly exactly models a nick that will be found on the face of Tush and Karman.

你说得对，就在他去世的那一刻，开罗全城停电，而他那只狗——位于唐顿庄园（即《唐顿庄园》取景地）——开始哀嚎。

You're right that that the moment he dies, there's a power cut across Cairo and his dog back in, back in Highclere, which is the which is, Downton Abbey, howls.

这就是所谓的诅咒传说。

And this is the story of, of of of the curse.

但显然，卡特才是证明诅咒不存在的人，因为他并没有因此死去。

But, I mean, Carter, obviously, the the person who proves that the curse isn't real is is Carter because he does not die of it.

真令人失望。

How disappointing.

是啊。

Yeah.

这确实令人失望。

It is disappointing.

好的。

Okay.

所以，显然，图坦卡蒙本身也是吸引力的一个巨大因素。

So there's also I mean, obviously, Tutankhamen, a huge element of the appeal.

在我们谈阿肯那顿之前，另一个巨大的吸引力在于他是个孩子，是个少年法老，我们总是觉得他有点晚了

Again, before we get into the Akhenaten stuff, a huge element of the appeal is that he's a child, is that he's a boy pharaoh, and we always have this He's kinda late

十几岁吧，是不是？

teens, isn't he?

但他成了什么？

But he becomes what?

他八九岁的时候就成为了？

He's eight or nine when he becomes?

是的。

Yeah.

他大概在17岁左右就去世了，我想。

He kinda dies about when he's about 17, I think.

换句话说，他和很多孩子第一次读到图坦卡蒙故事时的年龄差不多。

So in other words, he's the same age as a lot of children when they first read Yes.

关于图坦卡蒙。

About Tutankhamun.

我认为，人们所感受到的那种夭折青年的悲剧感，正是这种夭折青年与金碧辉煌却僵化凝固的陵墓遗存之间的强烈对比。

And it's that sort of sense of doomed youth, I think, that people it's the it's the sort of the contrast between the doomed youth and then the gilded but ossified splendor

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，正是这些遗存的辉煌与少年英年早逝的反差，构成了图坦卡蒙故事吸引我们的核心。

Of the remains that I think we often like about the Tutankhamen story.

当然，这也正是我们去博物馆、欣赏所有文物的原因。

And of course, that's why we go to museums and we and we and we enjoy seeing all the artifacts.

但这个故事的智力魅力——也就是我们即将揭晓的重大关键——其实在于他的父亲阿肯那顿，他无疑是人类历史上最迷人、最神秘的人物之一。

But the intellectual appeal of the story, and this is where we come to the big reveal, is really his father, who's this fellow called Akhenaten, who must be one of the most fascinating and mysterious characters in all human history.

我知道你对这个充满热情。

And I know you are passionate about this.

所以，你能不能给我们讲讲，给那些对古埃及一无所知的人做个概述？

So why don't you tell us the you know, give us an outline for people who don't know anything about ancient Egypt.

给我们讲讲这个故事。

Give us the story.

好的。

Okay.

阿肯那顿是法老阿蒙霍特普的儿子，这个名字的意思是‘阿蒙感到满意’。

So Akhenaten is the son of a pharaoh called Ammonotep, which means, basically, Ammon is pleased.

而阿蒙-阿蒙-拉神，在这个时候——大约是公元前1370年，即公元前1360年左右——已经非常盛行。

And Amun Amun Re is the by by by the time that this is so this is, kind of 1370, thirteen sixty BC.

这属于埃及第十八王朝。

It's in the eighteenth dynasty of Egypt.

埃及当时已经存在了很长时间，是的。

And, Egypt is So Egypt's been going for, like Yeah.

它已经持续了

It's been going

一千多年了吗？

for more than a thousand years?

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

这是一个极其古老的文明。

It's an incredibly ancient civilization.

在第十八王朝时期，它极其强大。

And under the eighteenth dynasty, it's incredibly powerful.

埃及曾被被称为希克索斯的亚洲入侵者占领，而他们被第十八王朝的祖先驱逐了。

Egypt had been occupied by, Asiatic invaders called Hyksos, and they had been expelled by the ancestor of the eighteenth dynasty.

不仅亚洲人被驱逐了，法老们还向北扩张，建立了一个松散的帝国，一直延伸到叙利亚。

And, not only had the Asiatics been expelled, but the pharaohs had then expanded northwards and established a kind of loose empire reaching right the way up into Syria.

阿蒙霍特普三世就像是古埃及的路易十四。

And Amenhotep the third is kind of like the Louis the fourteenth of ancient Egypt.

他是太阳王。

He is the sun king.

他的一切都是金色的。

Everything about him is golden.

他非常富有。

He's wealthy.

他统治了

He rules

非常长的时间。

for very, long types.

巨大的雕像。

Huge statues.

所以，如果你去大英博物馆，会看到一尊巨大的他的头像，脸上带着一种神秘而自满的微笑——如果你是阿蒙霍特普三世，你可能也会这样笑。

So if you go to the British Museum, the the there's a huge kind of head of him with this kind of enigmatic rather self satisfied smile as well you might be if you were Amenhotep the third.

阿蒙的祭司们实际上规模庞大。

And the priests of Amun are basically, you know, they're they're massive.

他们是国家中一股强大的势力。

They're a kind of massive power in the land.

他们管理着这些庞大而广阔的神庙。

They, they run these huge vast temples.

阿蒙霍特普三世的儿子，将继承他王位并成为阿蒙霍特普四世，实际上崇拜另一位神祇。

And Amenhotep the third's son, who will succeed him and become Amanotep the fourth, is actually committed to another god.

在他统治的几年内，他通过改名来表明这一立场：从‘阿蒙霍特普’（阿蒙甚喜）改为‘阿肯那顿’，意思是‘为阿顿而行’。

And a few years into his reign, he signals this by changing his name from Amanotep, Ammon is pleased to Acanatan, which means basically you do stuff for the for for the Aten.

阿顿是太阳圆盘。

And the Aten is the disc of the sun.

阿肯那顿对阿顿的虔诚如此之深，以至于他几乎发动了一场针对阿蒙的攻击。

And Acanatan's devotion to the aton is such that he basically launches a kind of an attack against Amun.

他关闭了供奉阿蒙的神庙。

He closes the temples to Amun.

他迁往如今被称为阿玛纳的地方，那里曾是霍华德·卡特和弗林德斯·皮特里发掘的遗址，当时阿肯那顿称之为阿赫塔顿，即阿顿的地平线。

He moves to this place that now is called Amarna where Howard Carter and Flinders Petrie were digging and which at the time was called, Akhenaten calls it Akhetaten, the horizon of the Aten.

阿肯那顿在那里建造了一座完全献给阿顿神崇拜的全新城市。

And Akhenaten builds an entire city there devoted to the worship of this this god Aten.

令人震惊的是，这一点曾引发广泛讨论——弗洛伊德曾提及，许多人都曾撰文论述——阿肯那顿本质上是一位一神论者。

And the thing that's astonishing about this and something that has kind of echoed through you know, Freud writes about it, all kinds of people write about it, is that, essentially, Akhenaten is is a monotheist.

他是一位反对埃及人历来视为理所当然的众多神祇的一神论者。

And he's a monotheist who is reacting against the vast array of gods that the Egyptians have always taken for granted.

他创作了这些颂歌。

And he writes these kind of hymns.

我们假设这些颂歌是阿肯那顿写的。

We assume that Akhenaten writes them.

但我们实际上并不能确定这一点。

We don't actually know this for sure.

但他写了一首献给阿顿的颂歌。

But he's conventions hymn to the Aten.

他称阿顿为唯一的神，再无其他神明与之并列。

And he hails the Aten as soul god without another beside him.

在埃及人对宇宙和神明角色的固有观念背景下，这简直是革命性的，令埃及人震惊不已。

And in the context of, you know, of of Egyptian assumptions about the universe, about the role played by the gods, this is so revolutionary and that Egypt is left kind of stunned by it.

当阿肯那顿去世后，逆转这场革命的过程立即开始，因为图坦卡蒙最初被称为图坦阿顿。

And when Akhenaten dies, the process of kind of rolling this revolution back begins immediately because Tutankhamun is initially called, Tutankhamun.

图坦阿顿，是阿顿的活生生的化身。

So Tutank Aten is the living living image of the Aten.

图坦卡蒙，则成为阿蒙的活生生的化身。

Tutankhamun, he becomes the living image of Amun.

图坦卡蒙成为反革命的象征性人物，而他去世后，这一进程继续。

And Tutankhamun becomes the kind of figurehead of a counter revolution, which then, he dies.

他很可能由他的叔祖父艾接替了王位。

He gets succeeded probably by his his great uncle, a guy called Ay.

然后艾去世了，继任者是一位名叫霍伦海布的人，他是一位将军。

Then Ay dies, and he gets inter succeeded in turn by a guy called Horemheb, who is a a kind of general.

正是在霍伦海布统治期间，阿肯那顿及其革命的全部记忆被彻底抹去。

And it's under Horemheb that, the entire memory of Akhenaten and his revolution basically gets flattened.

阿肯那顿、图坦卡蒙，还有我，都被从国王名录中删除了，以至于几百年后，尽管有关这段恐怖历史的零星回响仍深埋其中，阿肯那顿和图坦卡蒙的名字却完全被遗忘，直到弗林德斯·皮特里抵达阿玛纳并开始发掘，人们才重新发现这些遗迹。

And Akhenaten, Tutankhamun, I, they all get written out of the king lists so that, you know, a few centuries on, although there are very interesting kind of echoes of the horror of this that are buried, Akhenaten's own name and Tutankhamun's name get completely forgotten, and no one has any idea that they existed until Flindus Petrie arrives at Amana and starts excavating and finding, digging up all this stuff.

而这种状况的悖论恰恰在于，正是它让图坦卡蒙得以留存至今。

And basically, that's the paradox is that is what enables Tutankhamun to survive.

这里涉及的内容实在太多了。

So there's so much to unpack here.

也许我们可以谈谈纯粹的宗教内容，我知道你对这个很着迷，比如阿肯那顿的影响，以及人们如何试图理解他——他是否是所有一神教宗教的始祖，等等。

Maybe we'll get to the the purely religious stuff, which I know you're fascinated by, and the influence of Akhenaten and the way that people have tried to understand, is he the father of all our monotheistic religions and all the rest of it.

但作为一名二十世纪的历史学家，让我印象最深的是，这位君主有一个极其专横的父亲——伟大的法老阿蒙霍特普三世，他甚至在生前就被神化了。

But just looking back on this as a sort of historian of the twentieth century, what's really striking to me about it is you have this guy who come, he's had a very domineering father who was the great pharaoh, who was kind of, I think deified in his own lifetime, Amenhotep III.

而阿肯那顿继位后，宣称了一种新的信仰体系、一种新的文化形式，甚至带来了一种全新的艺术风格。

And Akhenaten comes in, he says that there's a new belief system, a new cultural form, so there's a new kind of art.

如果你看他的画像，那些脸真的非常奇怪，拉得很长。

If you see the images of him, I mean, they're really weird, elongated kind of faces.

所以艺术风格已经改变了。

So the art has changed.

他想在沙漠中建造一座全新的城市，一个远离旧都的地点。

He wants to have an entirely new city in the desert, a new site that's away from the old capitals.

神庙的结构也变了，变成了露天神庙。

The temples are changed, so they're open air temples.

每个人都能被看到。

Everybody can be seen.

你时刻被阳光注视着，同时也被他的警察和安保力量监视着。

You're being surveyed the whole time by the sun, but also by his police and by his kind of security forces and stuff.

我觉得他是个令人不安的现代人物。

I mean, he feels a disturbingly modern figure.

我的意思是，如果你把他和波尔布特放在一起比较，听起来像是个荒谬的类比。

I mean, he's somebody that if you put him alongside, you know, Pol Pot, I mean, it sounds like a ludicrous comparison.

但同样，他是一个希望完全按照某种意识形态重塑社会的人。

But again, somebody who wanted to completely remake society in the service of an ideology.

阿肯那顿，你可以把他描绘成现代极权主义者的先驱。

Akhenaten, you know, you can paint him as an ancestor for modern totalitarians.

或者我这么说，你觉得我有失公允吗？

Or am I or do you think I'm being unfair?

嗯，我认为你有点不公平，因为我觉得这个时期的一个迷人之处，同时也是令人沮丧的地方在于：我们有足够的材料去感知这里正发生着一些极其重要且引人入胜的事情，但又缺乏足够的材料来确切了解当时究竟发生了什么。

Well, I think I think you are being a bit unfair because I think one of the one of the fascinations of this period is also the frustrations that we there's just enough material to sense that there's something incredibly important and fascinating going on here, but there's not quite enough material to have a definite sense of what was actually going on.

我们最终无法确切知道，这场革命究竟涉及了什么。

And we can't ultimately know for sure, you know, really what the what the revolution involved.

我们无法确切知道，甚至图坦卡蒙是否真的是阿肯那顿的儿子。

We can't know for sure who you know, even whether Tutankhamun really was Akhenaten's son.

所有这些关系都尚无定论。

All these kind of relationships are up for grabs.

因此，当你审视像阿肯那顿这样的人物时，总是容易把自己的假设投射到他身上。

And therefore, the temptation is always, when you look at someone like Akhenaten, is to back project your own assumptions.

所以，是的。

So Yeah.

首先，在维多利亚时代中期到晚期，人们将阿肯那顿与一种维多利亚时代的灵性联系在一起。

To to begin with, in the kind of high Victorian period, the kind of late Victorian period, people associated Akhenaten with a kind of Victorian spirituality.

他被视为一个柔弱、热爱和平的人，缺乏勇气去为埃及帝国挺身而战。

He he was he was kind of seen as an effete, lover of peace who hasn't had the, the cojones to, to stand up and fight for for the Egyptian empire.

而更进一步的是

And what added to

那是因为他的雕像，汤姆，对吗？

that Is that partly because of his statues, Tom?

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，部分原因是

Well, it's partly

因为他的形象太过怪异且雌雄莫辨

because of so weird and androgynous in his

是的。

Yeah.

这 partly 是因为那首献给阿顿的颂歌，其中他所呈现的是一种相当普世主义的颂歌。

It's partly because of the but partly because of the hymn to the atom where he's he he it's it's kind of quite a universalist hymn.

因此，人们感觉到埃及正与远方的土地截然不同。

So there's the sense of kind of Egypt was being radically different from the lands beyond has gone.

这是一种非常独特且激进的方式。

And, you know, this is kind of very kind of radically distinctive approach.

但正如你所说，确实如此。

But it's also, as you say, yes.

阿玛纳艺术极其怪异，阿肯那顿被描绘成拥有巨大的头颅、隐约的乳房、女性的臀部和臀部，以及非常纤细的腿。

So the the Armana art is incredibly odd, and Akhenaten is portrayed with kind of huge great cranium, often kind of hint of breasts, a woman's hips and buttocks, and then very kind of thin spindly legs.

当这些形象出现在浮雕上时，看起来很奇怪。

And when when it's on engravings, these look odd.

但当你看到它们作为雕像，尤其是那些在卡纳克竖立、后被掩埋在瓦砾下、并于二十世纪由考古发掘出土的巨大雕像时。

But when you get them as statues and and stat huge statues that were kind of raised at Karnak and which then got buried beneath the rubble and got extracted by twentieth century excavations.

我认为，它们是我见过的最奇怪的艺术作品。

And they're they're, I think, the the strangest works of art that I've ever seen.

它们极具主导性，而且非常出色。

They they kind of dominate They're brilliant.

它们真的让人感到不安，

They're they're really unsettling,

不是吗？

aren't they?

它们现在收藏在开罗博物馆，当你站在它们下方仰望时，能感受到一种强大的力量。

So they're in the Cairo Museum in, and to stand beneath them and look up at them, you feel there's a sense of power there.

因此，人们不禁疑惑：这里到底发生了什么？

And so people have wondered, well, what the hell was going on here?

于是有人提出，也许他患有多种医学病症，这些形象正是对他的描绘。

And so they people have said, well, maybe he had kind of a variety of medical conditions, and this is what it's portraying.

但实际上，我认为这与那些医学因素毫无关系。

But, actually, I don't think it's anything to do with that.

因此，在整个法老时代，当你看到一位法老时，你会想，哦，这位法老耳朵特别大。

So again and again, through through pharaonic history, you look at a a pharaoh and you think, oh, you know, there's one who's got huge ears.

他看起来像查尔斯王子。

He looks like prince Charles.

也许他本来就是长这样。

Maybe that's what he looked like.

但随后你意识到，并非如此。

And then you realize, no.

这是因为耳朵都被设计成在倾听。

It's because the ears are all listening.

阿顿神的独特之处在于，他同时包含了男性和女性的特质，而阿肯那顿则把自己表现为阿顿之子，是凡人中唯一如此的存在。

And the thing about the aton is that both male and female are contained within him, and Akhenaten is presenting himself as the son of the Aten who alone among mortals.

实际上，他的妻子娜芙蒂蒂也是如此，他们构成了一种三位一体的关系。

Actually, Nefertiti, his wife, does as well, but they're they're a kind of trinity.

因此，正如娜芙蒂蒂被描绘得颇具男性气质，且在阿肯那顿去世后似乎曾以男性法老的身份统治，阿肯那顿的雕像也赋予了他一些女性化的特征。

And so just as Nefertiti is portrayed in quite a masculine sense and in due course after Akhenaten's death seems to have ruled as a a a male pharaoh, so Akhenaten in his statues is given kind of feminine characteristics.

这完全与阿顿神的神学意义有关。

And this is entirely to do with the kind of the theological sense of what the aton is.

我认为这才是重点所在。

And I think that that's the focus of it.

我不认为在三十年代、四十年代和五十年代，人们会如此容易地在这个人物身上看到极权独裁者的影子。

It's it's not I don't I don't think that by the thirties, by the forties, and the fifties, people are kind of very prone to see totalitarian dictators in this figure.

再说一遍，我认为这种看法并不准确，因为阿肯那顿更接近穆罕默德，我觉得。

Again, I don't think that's quite right, because Akhenaten is kind of he's more of he's closer to Muhammad, I think.

他出于激进的理由，试图关闭阿蒙神等其他神祇的神庙，完全剥夺其他神灵的地位。

He's he's he's someone who who who for radical reasons is trying to close down the temples of of, you know, of Ammon in particular and to give no role whatsoever to other gods.

他愿意尽其所能，促使人们对此产生认同。

And he is prepared to go as far as he can to encourage people to to have a stake in that.

但你知道，这本质上还是青铜时代的事情。

But, you know, but he's this is kind of Bronze Age, really.

他并没有一个极权国家所具备的强制执行机制。

He doesn't have the apparatus of a totalitarian state to enforce that.

衡量这一点的标准是，当他去世后，整个体系就像一堆纸牌一样轰然倒塌。

And the measurement of that is that when he dies, the whole thing basically like, a stack of cards falls falls down.

好的。

Okay.

但愿没人对这个播客也这么说。

Well, let's hope no one says that of this podcast.

我们即将休息一下，然后回来。

We're about to take a break, and we'll come back.

我认为汤姆将和我们谈谈宗教。

And I think Tom will be talking to us about religion.

汤姆，我们拭目以待。

And, Tom, we shall find out.

一分钟后见。

See you in a minute.

欢迎回到《历史其余部分》。

Welcome back to The Rest is History.

我们之前在谈图坦卡蒙，然后稍微往前追溯，谈到了他的父亲阿肯那顿，我个人觉得他有趣得多。

We're talking about we started talking about Tutankhamun, and we've gone a little bit further back, and we're talking about his father, Akhenaten, who I think is personally I I find much more interesting.

汤姆，当然还有另一位人物，就是纳芙蒂蒂。

Tom, there's another figure, of course, which is Nefertiti.

纳芙蒂蒂，我们都知道，她可是《神秘博士》里的人物。

Now Nefertiti, we all I I mean, Nefertiti's been a doctor who.

你知道吗？

I you know?

我记得那个事实——这不正是历史重要性的衡量标准吗？

I remember the fact that he That's That's the measure of historical significance, isn't it?

她曾展开过一次名为《太空中的恐龙》的冒险。

She went she went on an adventure called Dinosaurs on a Spaceship.

《纳芙蒂蒂上的恐龙》。

Dinosaurs on Nefertiti.

那是

It was

有史以来最伟大的节目。

the greatest program ever made.

她和一位维多利亚时代的探险家正在与恐龙搏斗。

She's fighting she was she and a Victorian explorer were fighting dinosaurs.

对。

Right.

所以人们都记得奈费尔提蒂，是因为那座半身像。

So Nefertiti, all remember because of the bust.

有一座非常出色的奈费尔提蒂半身像，那是一个头部雕像。

There's a great bust of Nefertiti, and it's this fantastic It's a head.

她的头部形象。

Image of her of her head.

嗯。

Yeah.

不是那个。

Not the other.

是的，好吧。

Let yes.

不是那种胸像。

Not the other kind of bust.

跟我们说说纳芙蒂蒂吧。

Tell us about Nefertiti.

她仅仅是一颗头像吗？

Is she more than a head?

我的意思是，她在历史上更重要吗？

I mean, is she more important historically?

她是一位非常重要的历史人物。

She's a she she is a very significant figure.

第十八王朝有两位女性法老执政。

So the eighteenth dynasty has two ruling fee pharaohs who are female.

有哈特谢普苏特，一位伟大的法老，建造了宏伟的曼迪神庙，并派遣远征队前往神秘的庞特之地。

There's Hatshepsut, great pharaoh who wonderful Mawchi Temple, sends a voyage to the mysterious land of Punt.

然后你有了奈费尔提蒂。

And then you have, it seems, Nefertiti.

她的名字意思是‘一位美丽的女士来了’。

Her her name means, a beautiful lady has come.

没有人完全确定她的父母是谁。

Nobody's entirely sure who her parents were.

不过我认为，她可能是图坦卡蒙的继任者。

Probably a, though, I think, who the the guy who succeeds Tutankhamun.

她在阿肯那顿的宗教中非常重要。

And she is very important in Akhenaten's religion.

所以。

So

所以她也参与进去了？

So she signed up to it?

她完全参与了。

She completely signed up

参与其中。

to it.

它的中心。

Center of it.

在墓葬图像中，你看到的是阿顿神盘，以及从其延伸出的光线。

And when you in the tomb images, you have the disc of the atom, and then you have the rays that come down.

在光线的末端，有双手。

At the end of the rays, you have hands.

这些手祝福着阿肯那顿，也祝福着娜芙蒂蒂。

And these hands, they bless Akhenaten, and they bless Nefertiti.

而娜芙蒂蒂，与通常站在丈夫身旁的王后不同，她的体型与丈夫一样大。

And Nefertiti, unusually for queens who are standing next to their husbands, is the same size.

这反映了娜芙蒂蒂所具有的巨大重要性。

So this is a kind of reflection of the the huge significance that Nefertiti has.

现在那里有

Now there was

汤姆，有一些图像显示他们手牵着手之类的。

There were images, Tom, where they're holding hands and stuff.

是的。

Yeah.

它们真的非常非凡。

And so They're really extraordinary.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，这种夫妻间的亲密感非常重要。

So the sense of kind of closeness, of connubial closeness is really important.

长期以来，人们一直认为，在阿肯那顿统治约十二年后，纳芙蒂蒂就从历史记录中消失了，似乎被贬黜了。

And it was thought that, for for decades, that after about twelve years of Akhenaten's reign, that Nefertiti vanishes from the record and that she'd been kind of driven into into disgrace.

但这种观点已不再是共识。

But that's no longer the consensus.

现在的共识是，阿肯那顿去世后，纳芙蒂蒂采用了男性法老的名字，似乎统治了数年，之后图坦卡蒙继承了她的位置。

And the consensus now is that after Akhenaten dies, Nefertiti takes on, a male pharaonic name and seems to have ruled for several years, then Tutankhamun succeeds her.

所以她也是一个非常重要的历史人物。

So she's a she's a very significant figure too.

但当然，她之所以被后人铭记，正如你所说，是因为那件令人惊叹的胸像——它于二十世纪初被发现，随后被带到了柏林博物馆。

And but but, of course, the reason that she lives in the memory is, as you say, this incredible bust that is, in the Berlin Museum, that was, found in the early twentieth century and got taken to Berlin.

而那个极度喜爱它的人，奇怪的是，竟然是希特勒。

And it it the one guy who absolutely adored it, oddly was Hitler.

希特勒对纳芙蒂蒂着迷不已，戈林曾一度打算将纳芙蒂蒂胸像归还给埃及政府。

And Hitler was obsessed by Nefertiti, and Goering at one point was going to return the the the bust of Nefertiti to the Egyptian government.

但希特勒亲自出面阻止了这一举动，因为他的梦想是，在取得全球胜利后，建造宏伟的‘日耳曼尼亚’首都，并设立一座庞大的埃及学博物馆群，而纳芙蒂蒂胸像将被置于穹顶之下，作为整个博物馆的核心展品。

And Hitler personally stepped in to stop it because his dream was that, when he built the great capital of Germania after, you know, global triumph, he was going to build a massive great, complex of museum a to Egyptology, and the bust of Nefertiti was going to be kind of under a dome as the central object for it.

所以……

So

那这一切究竟意味着什么？

So what's all that about?

因为纳粹对阿顿的故事也极为感兴趣，不是吗？

Because the Nazis also were really interested in the the Atton story, weren't they?

他们对这种崇拜简直着迷不已。

And the worship of the the I mean, they were they found all that absolutely fascinating.

这仅仅是因为二十世纪人人都觉得它很迷人吗？

And was that just because they everybody found it fascinating in the year 20 century?

还是说

Or was there

他们能够为对纳芙蒂蒂之美的狂热找到理由，是因为她的名字意为‘美丽的女士来了’。

The the way that they can, they can justify, being enthusiastic about the beauty of Nefertiti is that, you know, her name means the beautiful lady has come.

因此，他们认为她并非土生土长的埃及人。

So they argue that, therefore, she wasn't a native Egyptian.

他们声称她来自雅利安血统，这正是她如此美丽的缘故，因此她可以被奉为雅利安女性的象征。

They argue that she came with Aryan stock and that this is why she's so beautiful, so she can be enshrined as a a kind of icon of Aryan womanhood.

这又是人们将幻想投射到这一主题之上的另一个例子。

And so which is another example of people projecting fantasies after this Well after this subject.

这真是一个非常美妙的关联。

This is a very nice this is a very nice link.