28. 喜剧之王

是的。

Yeah.

这些是这些地位问题的状态。

Well, these are states of positions of these are questions of status.

是的。

Yeah.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

那里确实有风险，不是吗？

There's real edge there, isn't there?

因为实际上，当你真正陷入困境时，这种风险才会出现。

Because, actually, the edge comes if you're in real trouble.

所以，一个奴隶嘲笑主人，或者一个普通士兵嘲笑军官，这种行为在当时有着真正的危险，而今天他们对……就不会有这种危险了。

So a slave laughing at the master, you know, even even a private soldier laughing at the officer, there's real jeopardy there in a way that they wouldn't be today with a

嗯，所有这一切究竟是不是如此。

Well, all the all what it is is all what it is is is or not.

这一切其实就是一种定价方式，用以适应你们的权威体系及其运作方式。

All what it is is it's a priced in way of of of accommodating your systems of authority and how they work.

当你审视莎士比亚时代的小丑观念时，会发现有人能对国王说真话，因为他们被赋予了某种特殊许可。

And when you look at the the the I mean, if you look at the the Shakespearean idea of the jest that we have, that there's someone who can speak truth to the king because because they get granted license somehow.

这很有趣，因为在罗马传统中，尤其是罗马共和国时期，人们更关注怪人和异象，而不是国王身边有小丑或愚人。

And that it's interesting because in in Roman tradition, because but in Roman republican tradition, they're much more interested in freaks and things rather than rather than a king who has a jester, a king who has a fool.

真正有趣的是，小丑和愚人这一角色的发展方式：愚人唯一的庇护者就是国王。

And what's what's really interesting is the way the jester and the fool thing develops is it's it is the the only patron that the fool has is the king.

因此，他与其它形式的庇护关系脱钩了。

So he's immune he's removed, divorced from other forms of patronage.

所以他可以说出真相。

So he can speak the truth.

所以，如果你是亨利八世的愚人，诺福克公爵就无法通过收买你来对你施加影响。

So, you know, the the if if you're Henry the eighth's fool, the duke of Norfolk can't get at you by bribing you.

你向国王说真话。

You speak truth to the king.

在这种情况下，真理是什么？

And what is truth in this instance?

在英格兰，我们看到有两种小丑，这在有国王的社会中几乎是普遍现象。

Well, there's two types of fool that that that we see in England, and it's kind of universal in in societies with kings.

两种类型的小丑。

Two types of fool.

这与基督教神学有很大关系。

And it's a lot to do with Christian theology.

所以，你会

And you're gonna so, you

知道，别

know Don't

别鼓励他。

encourage him out.

不是吗？

Don't you?

他从昏沉中醒过来。

Emerges from his torpor.

哦，太好了。

Oh, great.

汤姆睡着了

Tom was asleep

他那时也睡着了。

too when he that.

基本上，归根结底，这涉及到纯真和神学意义上的纯真概念。

Basically well and a lot of it, what it comes down to is is the idea of innocence and theological innocence.

如果你是现在我们可能称之为学习障碍的人，如果你无法理解这个世界的样子，那么在中世纪早期到都铎时期，神学上会认为你因无知而在上帝面前是纯真的。

And if you are someone who has what we would probably call a learning disability now, if you're someone who can't get to the grips with the world as it seems, so theology, in the in the in the early Middle Ages and through to the Tudors, you're regarded as innocent before god because you don't know what's going on.

这便引出了有两种傻子的说法。

And this turns into the idea of the there's two types of fool.

一种是天生的傻子，即有某种精神障碍的人；另一种是装傻的人，他们假装自己有某种残疾。

There's naturals who are people who have some sort of mental disability, and then there's artificials who are people who pretend to have some sort of disability.

而被砍头的正是那些装疯卖傻的人，因为最终他们在上帝、国王或庇护者面前毫无辩护余地。

And it's the it's the ones who get their heads chopped off are the artificials because in the end, they have no defense before god or their king or their patron.

因为他们一旦言行出格，大家就会说：我们很清楚你并非无辜。

Because they're they're if they speak out of line, everyone goes, well, we we know perfectly well you're not innocent.

你是在假装。

You're putting it on.

这是你的表演，而这些人最终会惹上麻烦。

This is your this is your act, and they're the guys who get into trouble.

而天真者往往不会。

Whereas the innocents tend not to.

你看，比如亨利八世的小丑威尔·萨默。

You know, you look at Will Will Summer, who was Henry the eighth's fool.

他后来也在爱德华六世的宫廷中。

He's also then he's then in the court of Edward the sixth.

他还经历了玛丽女王的宫廷，我想他一直活到了伊丽莎白时期。

He goes through to Queen Mary's court as well, and I think lives until Elizabeth.

如果我们看看当时都铎政治的其他方面，比如十月派之类的，你知道，如果你支持亨利八世，你就不可能同时支持爱德华，如果你支持爱德华，就不可能支持玛丽。

Now if we look at the the the rest the October and all that version of the politic Tudor politics at that time, you know, if you're in with Henry the eighth, you can't be in with, you you know, if you're in with Edward, you can't be in with Mary.

你不可能在都铎时代的英格兰宫廷中，如此轻易地同时立足。

You can't possibly be in, you know, a a manageable presence within the court of Tudor England like that.

但他却一路贯穿始终，因为他纯真，因为他承担着某种功能。

But he runs right through because he's innocent and because he he he performs a function.

而且你会发现，还有一条模糊的界限：有些人作为王室的伴侣，明显存在某种精神障碍，因为他们不受权力、宫廷等种种负担的困扰，你可以单纯地把他们当作朋友。

And and you see you see that there's also a blurred line where, basically, you you have people who are companions to royalty who quite clearly have some sort of mental disability because they're not troubled by the burdens of power and the court and all that sort of stuff, and you can just have have them as your pal.

而小丑们正占据着这样一个独特而奇妙的临界空间。

And and fools occupy this really interesting, strange, liminal space.

在整个英格兰宫廷记录中，你都能看到他们领薪俸。

And and all the way through English court records, you see them on the payroll.

他们自己吃饭。

They eat on their own.

他们不和弄臣一起吃饭。

They don't eat with the jesters.

他们与弄臣或吟游诗人是分开的。

That that they're separate from the jest or from the minstrels rather.

吟游诗人最初是仆人，但后来意识到，如果你是个会弹鲁特琴的仆人，你的价值是不会弹琴的仆人的两倍。

And minstrels start out as servants and then realize that that they're bet if you're a servant who can play the lute, you're worth twice the servant who can't.

于是你最终得到了这种奇怪的、杂乱无章的宫廷追随者群体，而核心正是弄臣。

And so you end up with this this sort of weird hodgepodge of court followers, and then the heart of it is the fool.

在十六世纪，他们开始脱离原有的角色，当戏剧出现时，这种转变尤为明显。

And there's the moment in the, sixteenth century where they sort of break out and the when the theater comes along.

在某个技术性时刻，戏剧确立了自身作为一种技术形式，而弄臣们也开始同时从事这两项工作。

And there's a, essentially, a technological moment where theater establishes itself as a piece of sort of technology, and fools start doing both.

理查德·塔尔顿不仅是宫廷弄臣，还是职业弄臣，也是女王剧团的一员，他基本上标志着传统傻瓜形象的终结，以及向完全意义上的喜剧演员的过渡。

And there's Richard Tarleton, who is not only a a court fool, but also a professional fool and one of the Queen's men, and he's basically the beginning of the end of the idea of the leer like fool and the transition into comedian, full on comedian.

他巡回全国演出。

And he tours the country.

他作为巡回喜剧演员享有国际声誉，同时也是女王剧团十二名成员之一。

He he he has an international reputation as a touring comic and is also one of one of the, you know, the the 12 Queen's Men.

而喜剧演员们曾经依赖王室赞助，后来却转变为拥有公众观众和表演对象。

And it there's this so comedians comedians relied on royal patronage, and then it flips into they have a public constituency and people to play to.

与此同时，人们一直认为他们是在讲述真相，他们被允许说真话，因为他们不懂现实世界和神学。

And all the while, there is this idea that they're telling the they're telling the truth, and they're allowed to tell the truth because they don't understand the real world, and theology.

他们不会因为所说的话而下地狱。

They're not gonna go to hell for what they say as it were.

嗯，艾尔，我觉得这是一个绝佳的收尾方式。

Well, Al, I think that's a brilliant note on which to, to take care of.

界限性，地狱。

The liminality, the hell.

但但还有一点

But there's but there's a

但在你之前，有个精彩的故事。

But before you do, there's a great story.

这可以追溯到公元2009年2月的第二位皇帝秦。

And this goes all the way back to the second emperor Quinn in 02/02/2009 to February.

他宣布要给长城上漆。

He announces that he's gonna lacquer the Great Wall Of China.

对吧？

Right?

大臣们全都面面相觑，心想：你要告诉他吗？

And the courtiers all basic the story is the courtiers all look at each other and go, you're gonna tell him?

不。

No.

我不会告诉他。

I'm not gonna tell him.

这主意太糟了。

What a terrible idea.

这时，有个叫扭杆的傻子站出来说道：‘这主意太棒了，老板。’

And there's a a fool called Twisty Pole who steps forward and says, that's a brilliant idea, boss.

但问题是，你打算怎么让它干透？

But the problem is is how are gonna get it to dry?

我们得在上面建一个巨大的烘干房。

We're gonna have to build a great big drying house over it.

皇帝说：哦，是的。

And the emperor goes, oh, yeah.

显而易见。

Obviously.

真是个糟糕的主意。

What a terrible idea.

所以朝臣们不必直接去提醒他。

And so the courtiers don't have to confront him.

这就是傻子存在的意义。

And that's what the fool is for.

你觉得这种做法是否一直被用来让傻子充当这种角色？

And do you think that was used that the fool was always used as that sort of

多米尼克。

Dominic.

是的。

Yeah.

多米尼克，我们真的得休息一下，我们……

We Dominic, you you we've got to have a break, and we

我们刚去过中国长城，杰克。

just had Great Wall China, Jake.

我们对你那边拍了一段粗略的镜头。

We've a rough shot over your No.

我们没有。

We we don't.

我们已经去过中国长城了，杰克。

We've had a Great Wall Of China, Jake.

这正是一个完美的结束方式，

That is the perfect note on which

继续下去。

to go Go on.

休息一下。

Have a break.

休息一下。

Have a break.

你好。

Hello.

欢迎回到《历史其余部分》。

Welcome back to The Rest is History.

我们正在谈论喜剧和喜剧演员。

We're talking comedy, comics.

在中断前，我打断了多米尼克。

Before the break, I I cut Dominic off.

他很无礼。

He had He was rude.

他提了某个问题。

He had some question or other.

多米尼克，你的问题是什么？

Dominic, what was your question?

所以我的问题是关于小丑作为安全阀的作用。

So my question was about fools as safety valves.

阿尔提到的是小丑作为

Al was suggest was talking about fools as

嗯。

Well.

这个，这个。

This this.

所以他们的处境是其他人所没有的。

So they're they're in a position that nobody else is in.

而且朝臣们是否明知故用他们来传递那些无法直接传达的信息之类的？

And and do the courtiers knowingly use them to deliver the undeliverable message and so on?

是的。

Well, yes.

你会有自己的。

You'd have your you'd have your own.

我的意思是，关于威尔·萨默斯有趣的一点是，他被从其他公爵那里挖来的。

I mean, one of the interesting things about Will Summer is he's poached from some other duke.

你知道的。

You know?

在威尔·萨默斯之前的那个弄臣叫塞克斯顿，他是托马斯·沃尔西的弄臣。

After after the fool that precedes Will Summer is a guy called Sexton that that was Thomas Woolsey's fool.

当沃尔西失势后，他被允许在余生中安度晚年的一个条件就是交出他的弄臣。

And when Woolsey falls from grace, one of the one of the conditions that he's left left to live out his remaining days in pieces that he hands over his fool.

所以他把塞克斯顿交给了国王，而国王对此并不高兴。

So he surrenders Sexton to the king who's not happy about it.

后来，当塞克斯顿年纪渐长时，有人说道，这个府邸里有个了不起的弄臣。

And then eventually, as Sexton gets old, someone says, this is great fool in this household.

你应该让国王把他收下。

You should you the king should have him.

所以这是一种循环现象。

So there's a circuit of it.

每个人都在这么做。

Everyone's doing this.

但我的意思是，回答你刚才提出的问题，这确实是一个非常有效的安全阀。

But but, I mean, this is a very hard I mean, in answer to your question, it's a very that you posited just before as a safety valve.

这种观念是根深蒂固的。

It's a hardwired idea, this.

而且在西欧文化中确实根深蒂固。

And and certainly, definitely deep in Western European culture.

伊拉斯谟说，文艺复兴时期的弄臣可以直言真相，甚至说出尖锐的侮辱，却仍能被人欣然接受。

Erasmus says they can he says of Renaissance fools, they can speak truth and even open insults and be heard with positive pleasure.

事实上，那些若由智者说出会招致杀身之祸的话语，由小丑说出来却令人倍感愉悦。

Indeed, the words that will cost a wise man his life are surprisingly enjoyable when uttered by a clown.

如果真相不冒犯他人，它确实具有令人愉悦的真正力量，但这种能力唯有神明赐予了弄臣。

For truth has a genuine power to please if it manages not to give offense, but this is something the gods have granted only to fools.

不错。

Nice.

所以，阿尔，既然汤姆这么无礼，我要问第二个问题。

So, Al, since Tom was so rude, I'm gonna ask a second question.

是的。

Yeah.

而且这主要是为了稍微跟进一下那一点。

And this is to and this is to follow-up on that a little bit.

他比他弟弟更咄咄逼人。

He's much more he's much more pushy than his brother.

是吗？

Is he?

他比他弟弟更咄咄逼人。

He's more pushy than his brother.

嗯，这挺有意思的。

I well, that's interesting.

不。

No.

我不是。

I'm not.

老实说，说到

Honestly, getting on to

这里的战略层面。

the strategic level here.

我不这么认为。

I don't think so.

好吧。

Alright.

听好了。

Listen now.

你刚才说话的时候，我突然想到一件事：几年前，乔纳森·科伊在《伦敦书评》上写了一篇关于讽刺的文章。

Something that came up in my mind while you were just talking was a few years ago, Jonathan Coe wrote an essay in the London Review of Books talking about satire.

他谈到英国正笑着沉入大海，这是一种

And he was talking about Britain sinking, giggling into the sea, which is this sort of

是的。

Yeah.

我们被讽刺淹没的景象。

This image of us awash with satire.

但基本上，小说家乔纳森·科伊认为讽刺并不是

But basically satire being in now Jonathan Coe, the novelist Jonathan Coe, thought of satire as not

一种

as a

安全阀，也不是健康的东西，而是一种不健康的现象。

safety valve and not as a healthy thing, but as an unhealthy thing.

我们太忙于自满，自嘲不已。

That we were too busy being slightly complacent and laughing at ourselves.

他认为我们对讽刺的痴迷造就了鲍里斯·约翰逊和英国脱欧以及糟糕的政府，因此作为社会，我们应当更加愤怒。

He thought our obsession with satire had produced Boris Johnson and Brexit and bad government, and that instead of and we should be as a society more angry.

我们还有类似‘我有新闻告诉你’这样的东西？

And we and things like, have I got news for you?

他认为这对我们绝对是不利的。

He thought it as positively bad for us.

你对此怎么看？

What's your take that?

这很有趣。

That's interesting.

我觉得这很有趣，因为人们在谈论‘讽刺’这个词时，常常没有明确定义术语。

Well, I think that's interesting because I think one of the big problems with with with the s word has been a failure to define terms when people talk about it.

你经常会看到，比如我们之前谈到了《疯人院秀》。

You'll very often see I mean, we talked about The Goon Show earlier.

我认为《疯人院秀》就是一种讽刺作品。

I would contend that that's a satire, that that The Goon The Goon Show is satire.

一种超现实主义的讽刺，但确实是讽刺。

Surrealist satire, but it's satire.

但米利根当时是个蓝领爱尔兰人，没人看出它真正的本质。

But but Milligan being a blue collar Irishman, at the time, no one saw it for what it was.

然后，到了六十年代，出现了所谓的‘讽刺’热潮，而且那个‘讽’字是大写的。

And then, of course, you get the satire boom in the sixties, which is called that with a capital s.

因为这些人都本该进入外交部或学术界，所以人们觉得这是一种非凡的突破，是影响我们至今的非凡时刻。

And because they're all people who should have ended up in the foreign office or in academia, it's seen as some sort of extraordinary break, an incredible moment that that that we all live in the shadow of forever since.

我不这么认为。我觉得这种叙事的问题在于，关于新闻和政治家的笑话并不一定是讽刺。

And I don't think I I think there's I think the problem with that narrative is that is that jokes about the news and jokes about politicians aren't necessarily satire.

你知道，汤姆·夏普，我觉得他写过讽刺作品，但现在没人会把他归入讽刺传统之中。

You know, Tom Sharp, I thought I think wrote satire, but no one would no one would include him in a in a sort of satirical lineage now.

他们会把《我有新闻要告诉你》称为讽刺节目。

They would talk about have I got news for you as satire.

但我不认为它是。

And I don't think it is.

我觉得它只是一个时事新闻类的喜剧节目。

I think it's a topical news probe topical news comedy program.

我不认为这是讽刺，因为它真的能刺破我们根深蒂固的假设吗？

I don't think it's satirical because it it does it prick at our underlying assumptions?

它是在说你得到的是你应得的政客，还是它只是实现我们应得政客这一过程的一部分？

Does it say is it saying you get the politicians you deserve, or is it the part of the process of delivering us the politicians we deserve?

我认为这就是乔纳森的意思。

Which I think is what Jonathan means.

我觉得他想表达的是，太多轻浮，而不是太多讽刺。

I think I think he, you know, I think what he means is there's too much levity rather than too much satire.

这就是我理解的方式，因为……

It's it's how I'd how I'd how I'd read that because that,

你知道，我的意思是，其中一个……

you know, I mean, of the one of the one of the

当然，广播的问题在于，我刚刚写完了《吐口水图像》最后一季的内容。

problems with broadcasting, of course, because I I mean, I've just written on the last the last series of Spitting Image.

关于《吐口水图像》有趣的一点是，我们最初对它都有一种过于美好的滤镜视角。

And, you know, the the interesting about interesting thing about Spitting Image is we all have very rosy tinted spectacle view of it when it first started.

你看看第一季，内容杂乱无章，因为这是一个全新的节目，首次尝试通过木偶戏和模仿等方式在一种全新的媒介中呈现。

And you watch the first series, and it's all over the shop because it's a brand new program in an in a in a literally a new me medium of trying to do this through puppetry and impressions and all that.

他们勉强过关，靠的是冲击力，你知道的，因为看到这些实在太非同寻常了。

And they they they just about get away with it, and they do it on shock, you know, because it's so extraordinary to see.

而且，也许说到底，讽刺本来就是幼稚的，不是吗，汤姆？

And and maybe I mean, after all satire, it's juvenile, isn't it, Tom?

而关于幼稚这一点，它之所以被审查，是因为它太污秽了，对吧？

And the the thing about the thing about juvenile is it's all been censored because it's it's filth, isn't it?

幼稚？是的。

Juvenile is yeah.

我的意思是，简直肮脏透顶。

I mean, incredibly filthy.

那我们说的讽刺到底指的是什么？这让我又回到了最初的问题：我们所说的讽刺到底是什么意思？

And what do we mean by I mean, this is and this brings me back to my what do we mean by satire?

你知道吗？

You know?

因为低俗的内容里，有很多非常肮脏的笑话，不是吗？

Because in juvenile juvenile, lots of really filthy, filthy jokes, isn't it?

是的。

And Yeah.

而且非常，

And and very,

极其刻薄、非常尖锐的评论。

very bitter very, very bitter commentary.

低俗节目现在肯定会被取消，因为。

Mean, Juvenile would definitely get canceled now because Yeah.

他非常憎恨移民。

He he he detests immigrants.

他总是不停地抱怨移民有多糟糕。

He's always going on about how awful immigrants are.

对。

Yeah.

他还讨厌女人。

And he goes he he hates women.

他是个厌女者。

He's misogynist.

我的意思是，他几乎讨厌所有人和所有事。

I mean, in almost every he basically hates everyone and everything.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我觉得，你知道，这确实挺难的。

And and and I think this, you know, would would it's kind of tough.

读起来很艰难。

It's tough to read.

是的。

Yeah.

当然，对于我们现在的价值观来说。

Certainly, for our our sensibilities now.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我觉得我知道乔纳森想表达什么，但你得问问自己，这些东西到底是不是讽刺。

I I mean, I think I know what I think I know what Jonathan's driving at, but I think you've gotta ask ask yourself whether whether the things whether things are satire or not.

我的意思是，乔纳森的书在某种程度上是讽刺，但说真的，可能根本不是。

I mean, I think Jonathan's books are satire in a way that in a way that, have I got news for you, probably isn't.

难道不是因为那咯咯笑的声音渐渐沉入大海吗？

Isn't it also the fact that the the giggling sink sinking giggling into the sea?

那不也是彼得·库克吗？

Isn't that also Peter Cook?

而且，是的。

And Yeah.

你刚才提到《疯人秀》是对第二次世界大战的讽刺。

And the you were talking about how the Goon Show is a satire on on the the Second World War.

是的。

Yeah.

而《边缘之外》 famously 有这样一个场景，你知道的，我们需要一个节目

And so famously is Beyond the Fringe with the, you know, we need an act

在这一点上，这只是一个徒劳的姿态。

A futile gesture at this point.

徒劳的姿态，诸如此类。

A futile gesture and all that.

而且，多米尼克，我想你比任何人都更清楚这一点。

And and that presumably, Dominic, you'd know better than anyone.

我的意思是，当有人真的那样做的时候，那确实令人震惊。

I mean, that was genuinely shocking when someone did when they did that.

是吗？我对这一点不太确定。

Was it or was I'm unsure about this.

我认为有些人确实感到震惊，就像有些人对《本周》感到震惊一样。

I I think some people are were shocked just like some people were were shocked by that was the week that was.

但那往往只是一种假装震惊的表演。

But it's a sort of a performance of being shocked, I think, often

嗯，我同意这一点。

Well, I I I agree I agree with that.

我认为，毕竟，幽默及其核心确实非常重要。

I I I think I think that that because after all, it isn't after all, very often humor humor and its and its locus is is really, really important.

吉米·卡尔回忆起一段很久以前的事。

Jimmy Carr a while ago got into I mean, it's quite a while back this.

他曾因讲了一个在黑德利疗养院听到的笑话而惹上麻烦，而黑德利疗养院是为受伤的英国士兵提供康复的地方。

He got into trouble for for telling a joke that he had heard at Headley Court, and Headley Court is the was the rehab place for injured, British soldiers.

那里有很多来自阿富汗的士兵。

And there were lots of guys from Afghanistan there.

那里有个士兵对他说，不管发生什么，我们肯定能为2012年残奥会培养出一支出色的队伍，对吧？

And a bloke a bloke there said to him, you know, whatever else happens, we're gonna get a great Paralympic team for 2012 out of this, aren't we?

对吧？

Right?

这是一个在伤残士兵群体中讲述的、关于伤残士兵的笑话。

And that was a injured soldier's joke told in an injure injured soldier's setting.

吉米把它当作一个令人震惊的段子抛出来，结果因此惹上了麻烦。

And Jimmy Jimmy lobbed it in as a sort of as a as a as a shocking bar, but he got into trouble for it.

但这是因为他把笑话的语境给挪动了。

But that's that's that's because he reload he he he moved the locust of the joke.

你知道吗？

You know?

他试图把一株幼苗移植到错误的花园里，如果你明白我的意思的话。

He he he he tried to, you know, take a seeding a seedling and plant it in the wrong garden if you see what I mean.

我认为，佩金斯，我们需要你做一个无用的姿态，如果你在战争期间是一名飞行员，他们很可能彼此之间也这么说。

And I think I think that we need a futile gesture from you, Perkins, is probably if you're if you were an airman during the war, they were probably all saying that to each other.

这种黑色幽默正是应对极端困境的支撑。

That that's the black humor that informs extremely difficult situations.

你知道，粗俗的幽默极其黑暗。

You know, squatty humor is extremely dark.

问题在于，他们是在一个意想不到的环境中讲这些笑话的。

It's the fact that they were doing it in a in a in a in a an unexpected environment.

毕竟，这些人本该在外交部工作，或是牛津大学的教授，真正让人震惊的是人们竟然决定以这种方式行事，决定拿这种事开玩笑，而不是笑话本身。

And after all, they're nice chaps who really ought to have been in the foreign office and been Oxford dons that the it's as much to do with the shock of the people deciding to behave like this, deciding to joke about this rather than the jokes themselves.

你知道，框架和语境对人们的反应影响之大，丝毫不亚于内容本身。

And, you know, so much so much framing and context colors people's reactions as much as the material.

很多时候，内容反而被忽略了。

Very often, the material goes by the by.

我的意思是，瑞奇·热维斯说过，人们常常只听到笑话里的字句。

I mean, Ricky Ricky Gervais says, you know, people often hear the words in a joke.

他们根本不会去想这个笑话到底在讲什么。

They they and they don't think for a moment what the joke's about.

他们只是听到其中的言辞，却从不思考这到底是在说什么？

They they they just hear the things in it and don't think what what's this actually about?

我记得有个著名的例子，当《边缘之外》搬到纽约时，有一场小品结束后，有个人站起来说：‘你们这群混蛋。’

And I think, you know, there's a famous famous account of a guy when the when when Beyond the Fringe transferred to New York who stood up at the end of one sketch and said, you're a bunch of absolute rotters.

然后他坐回去，继续享受了余下的演出。

And then sat back and then sat back down again and enjoyed the rest of the show.

所以，你知道，夸张的表演和笑一样，都是一种表演。

So, you know, outrageous performance is a it's it's as performative as laughing sometimes.

你知道，参与笑话或被排除在笑话之外，两者同样重要。

You know, being in on a joke or being out on a joke is they're as important as each other.

你对我们目前所拥有的有什么看法？

What's your take on what we've got we've

有笑话。

got jokes.

等等。

Hold on.

等等。

Hold on.

我想问个问题，汤姆。

I wanna ask my question, Tom.

别再这样了。

Don't do this again.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

我们收到了明确的指示，必须回答一些听众的问题。

We we we I've got firm instructions that we've got to do some of the questions from the listeners.

天啊。

So Jesus.

多米尼克，你就是太专横了。

So, Dominic, you're just you're just so domineering.

知道。

Know.

我总是这样。

I just this all the time.

我只是顺便把他的问题加了上去。

I'm just putting kind of I tacked on with his question.

问题是我说个没完，汤姆根本插不上话。

The thing is I can't stop talking, and Tom can never get a word in Edgeways.

我其实收到一条消息

I've actually got a message

制作人说不可能。

from the producer saying impossible.

我其实收到制作人汤姆的消息，说问你的问题。

I've actually got a message from the producer, Tom, saying ask your question.

所以我要问我的问题了。

So I'm gonna ask my question.

我的问题是这样。

My question is this.

天哪。

God's sake.

现在连制作人都在 undermining 我。

And now I'm being undermined by the producer.

这已经等了很久了。

This has been waiting for moment.

和艾尔一起。

With Al.

其他播客里也发生过这种情况吗？

Did does this happen on the other podcast?

没有。

No.

他们放弃了。

They gave up.

他们放弃了。

They gave up.

他们只是说对不起。

They just said sorry.

这是一

It's a

但有点晚了

bit it's too late

现在。

now.

继续吧，多米尼克。

Go on, Dominic.

给我们讲讲你那有趣的问题。

Give us your fascinating question.

这是个好问题。

It's a good question.

这是一个关于曾经有趣但现在过时的喜剧的问题。

It's a question about comedy that was once funny and is now dated.

它是否应该被‘取消’呢？

Should it be, as it were, canceled?

它是否应该附带警告，还是干脆就不播出？

I should it be preceded by a warning or should it just simply not be broadcast?

既然你是斯派克·米利根的铁粉，那他就是一个很好的例子，因为他在20世纪70年代曾表演过一些段子或扮演过角色，比如涂黑脸，如果现在BBC播出这些内容，肯定会引发轩然大波。

And since you're a big Spike Milligan fan, Spike Milligan is a very good example of this because of course, he did routines or he played characters in the 1970s, blacking up, for example, that now if the BBC broadcast it, there would be howls of outrage.

那么，广播公司和类似的人应该如何应对这类问题呢？

So how should broadcasters and people like that deal with this sort of issue?

我的意思是，他们完全可以委托制作一些新内容，这样就不必用那些老掉牙的旧节目来填满播出时段了。

Well, I mean, what they could do is commission some new stuff so they don't need to fill their schedules with boring old things from the old days.

我的意思是，作为一名真正关心喜剧创作的人，我觉得这才是解决问题的办法。

I mean, I think it's it's it's you know, as as someone actually as someone actually con concerned with making comedy, that that strikes me as the solution to the problem.

毕竟，现在的笑话——正如巴里·亨姆斯曾著名地说过，你一死，就不再好笑了。

And after all, jokes about now I mean, Barry Humphries famously says, the moment you die, you're no longer funny.

你知道，喜剧的生命就在于当下这一刻。

You know, that you're you you you that that that that you live that comedy lives right in the present moment.

当然，如果是三十年前、四十年前的东西，就不会好笑了。

And, of course, it's not funny if it's from thirty years ago, forty years ago.

当然不会。

Of course not.

因为除了那些种族主义成分外，所有相关的背景参照也都过时了。

Because aside from the aside from those racist aspects, all the frames of reference will be shot anyway.

你知道的。

You know?

我觉得，如果老东西还能让人发笑，那真是了不起。

And I think it's remarkable when things are funny from the olden days.

但很多东西其实还是好笑的。

But lots of things are funny.

我是被蒙骗了。

I mean, was fooled.

他们让我去做一个

I was told to do a

很多

lot of

事情在

things in

当天，他发现

the day, and he found that

很好笑。

funny.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这挺搞笑的，但因为有些人，这部分被剪掉了

That's pretty funny, but there's been a bit of that sliced out because people

是的。

Yeah.

你说得对。

You're right.

你说得对。

You're right.

上校。

The major.

是的。

Yeah.

再次发生那种情况，他们错过了笑话的主旨，只听到了那些词。

Again, have done the thing where they they miss the subject of the joke, and they hear the the words.

有时候，这对一些人来说已经足够了，他们就不说了。

And sometimes that's enough for people that they, no.

对不起。

I'm sorry.

不能在那种情况下待着。

Can't be around that.

我们不能再那样开那种玩笑了。

We can't joke about about that in that way anymore.

好的。

Okay.

我们有一个来自名叫基尔·哈德利的观众的问题。

We have a question from the brilliantly named Keir Hardley.

你喜欢这个吗？

You you like that?

这非常好。

That's very good.

这是目前为止这个节目里最有趣的事。

That's the funniest thing on this program so far.

完全、彻底地可行。

Totally, entirely functional.

喜欢这个节目。

Love the show.

很喜欢这个节目。

Loved the show.

这很有趣。

This is fun.

是的。

Yeah.

喜欢这个节目。

Love the show.

而且，我们也有办法让你开口，尽管我对军事史了解非常有限。

And also, love, we have ways of making you talk despite my very limited understanding of military history.

所以，这是给你的，阿尔。

So that's for you, Al.

好吧，是的。

Well Yes.

他说，有些事情是因为我们当前的主流态度而被视为禁忌吗？

He says, are are some things taboo because of our prevailing attitudes now?

所以这就是我们一直在讨论的内容。

So that's what we've been talking about.

但我好奇的是，是否有些事情总是被当作神圣不可触碰或不可言说的，从而形成一种持续的循环。

But what I wonder is, is there a kind of churn that certain things are always held to be sacred or unsayable or whatever.

而这种循环自然会催生喜剧。

And that that then kind of automatically generates comedy.

因为一旦你不再遵守这些禁忌，就有点像在葬礼上忍不住笑出来一样。

Because the moment you're not it's kind of like getting the giggles at, you know, funeral or something.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

不被允许笑某件事，反而几乎会自动激起你去笑它的欲望。

Not being allowed to laugh about something kind of almost automatically makes you want to laugh about it.

嗯，是的。

Well, yes.

这正是

That's a

这种循环的一部分。

kind of part of the cycle of what goes on.

绝对如此。

Abs absolutely.

你知道的？

You know?

毕竟，说那些不可言说的事情，是宣称自己在说不可言说之事的绝佳方式，也是卖票或成名的好手段。

And after all after all, saying the unsayable is an awfully good way of claiming you're saying the unsayable is an awfully good way of selling tickets or creating making making a name for yourself.

别忘了，喜剧和其他艺术形式一样，存在于一个充满商业利益的原始世界中，我们刚才还谈到了王室赞助。

Let's not let's not forget, you know, that the comedy exists in a like any other art form, exists in a raw world of commerce and direct and, you know, we're talking about royal patronage earlier.

明白吗？

Know?

现在，国王不再为喜剧演员付钱了。

Now now the king doesn't pay for comedians.

每个人都为自己喜欢的弄臣买单。

Everyone pays for their own personal gesture jesters.

我们现在的生活就像国王一样。

We are we, you know, we live like kings now.

我们每个人都有自己偏爱的弄臣、傻瓜，那些告诉我们想听的真相的人。

We each have the the jesters we prefer, the the fools we prefer the opinions of, who who who tell us the truths we want to hear.

所以是的。

So yeah.

但这种更替是永无止境的。

And that but there is relentless there's there's endless churn.

我的意思是，在我职业生涯刚开始的时候，你必须有政治立场，否则就会被认为很奇怪。

I mean, there wasn't you know, in in my career, there was a when I first started out, you had to be political, and if you weren't, there was something really quite wrong with you.

后来出现了维克和鲍勃，就我个人而言，他们很大程度上延续了米林格那种荒诞滑稽且富有讽刺意味的风格，但当然，因为他们不是上流社会的人，没人会这么称呼它。

And then and then sort of Vic and Bob, who, for for my money, were very much channeling a kind of Milligan esque goonish streak and satirical as well, but of course, because they're not posh, no one would ever call it that.

他们说，不行。

They they said, no.

实际上，如果你想胡闹，也是可以的。

Actually, you can you can you can muck about if you want.

然后情况变了，潮流也变了。

And it changed, and the and the fashion changed.

在本世纪初的很长一段时间里，如果你不讲关于强奸的笑话，就会被认为缺乏胆量，不够尖锐，诸如此类。

And then there was a solid a solid pretty solid decade in the in the early part of this century where if you if you didn't do jokes about rape, you were some sort of you were some sort of coward, you know, in terms of edge and all that sort of thing.

这些事情就是会变，一旦某件事成了禁忌，它就会改变。

These these things just they just change the moment something the moment something's taboo.

喜剧演员毕竟大多受恶作剧心理驱使，因此会被这些禁忌话题强烈吸引。

Comics, because after all, a lot of them are driven by mischief, if nothing else, are drawn to these taboo subjects magnetically.

但有时候他们并不会。

And sometimes they're not.

有时候你只是觉得，观众不会接受这个。

Sometimes you just think, well, an audience won't stomach this.

毕竟，这整个过程就像是与观众共舞的一支双人舞。

And after all, it's a it's a pas de deux with an audience, the whole thing.

我们都来这里享受乐趣，对吧？

And I'll I'll I'll we're all here to have a good time, aren't we?

与其总是被逼着面对真相——毕竟，真相只是达成目的的一种手段。

Rather than be confronted about the truth all the time, which is, after all, one of the one of the means to the ends.

而且在喜剧中，常常会混淆手段与目的。

And there's a very often a confusion between means and ends in comedy anyway.

最终目标是让人发笑，你可以用任何方式达到这个目的。

The end is to make people laugh, and you get there any way you can.

没有对错之分。

There's no right way wrong way.

或许喜剧的终极目标是让人们感受到某个历史时期的总体氛围。

Perhaps the end of comedy is to, instill in people a general sense of a historical period.

无论如何，这是罗伯特·曼特尔的观点，他问道：你认为喜剧在多大程度上塑造了大众对历史的看法？

This, at any rate, is the argument of Robert Mantel, who asks, how much do you think comedy shapes popular views of history?

例如，我们对第一次世界大战的印象有多少来自《黑爵士》？对罗马犹太地区的了解又有多少来自《巨蟒》？

For example, how much of our view of the First World War is Blackadder or of Roman Judea is Python?

他说，喜剧片段往往比严肃剧集具有更广泛的影响力和更持久的生命力。

Well And he says it it feels like comic takes often have a broader reach and more staying power than serious dramas.

这真是个很好的问题。

Well, that's a very good

这很有趣，不是吗？

That's interesting, isn't it?

这是个极好的问题。

That's an excellent question.

我认为特别有趣的是，《黑爵士》第四季才是人们真正记住的，没人会看《黑爵士》第二季——那个有伊丽莎白女王的版本——然后认为那就是伊丽莎白时代的英国真实模样。

And and I think what's really interesting about that, I think, is that it's Blackadder four that's the one that that I don't think anyone looks at Blackadder the second series of Blackadder with Queen Elizabeth in it and thinks, oh, that's what Elizabeth England was like.

我觉得那一季完全没有任何真实感，而且我也觉得乔治亚时期……

I don't think there's any any feeling of verisilimitude in in in that, and I don't think the Georgian

我不知道，大卫。

I don't know, David.

那是三个。

That's three.

我不觉得那是最后一件事

I don't That's the last thing

你需要人们

you need people

和摄政王在一起，不是吗？

to have with the Prince Regents, isn't it?

嗯，依我看，我认为它和我读过或看过的那个时期的任何其他历史作品一样好。

Well, yeah, for for my money, I think it's, you know, it's it's as it's as as good as any other history I've read or seen of that period.

它确实相当强烈地

It's certainly It's quite hammering

针对摄政王，

to the Prince Regents,

不是吗？

isn't it?

没错。

Exactly.

对。

Yeah.

但然后但然后但黑色

But then but then but black

因为黑色在四者中占据了这个位置，我的意思是，这非常有趣，因为当他们制作这部作品时，第一次世界大战还活在人们的记忆中，但那时它也已经牢固地成为了一种民间传说，就像这个国家任何重大的历史事件一样。

because black out of black out of four occupies this I mean, it's very interesting that that that, you know, the the First World War was kind of in living memory when they made it, but it was also firmly in living myth by then, like any proper big historical event in this country.

你知道，关于它的一些早已确立的说法。

You know, all sorts of established things that that were true about it.

你知道，加里·谢菲尔德，就是那位在伍尔弗汉普顿写过《被遗忘的胜利》的人。

You know, Gary Sheffield, who's who's the the guy at Wolverhampton who's who wrote Forgotten Victory.

他提出了各种各样的观点，你知道的？

He's made all sorts of sort of you know?

他写了海格的传记，而且他知道，他不太愿意称自己为第一次世界大战历史的修正主义者，但他确实说，黑adder。

And he's written Hague's biography and also and he's know, he loathe to call him a revisionist of First World War history, but he find he he says he says, you know, blackadder.

问题是，当你试图教授第一次世界大战历史时，要超越《黑爵士》很难。

The problem is when you're trying to teach First World War history, getting past Blackadder.

你知道，斯蒂芬·弗莱说过，明天将军会向前推进一英寸，今天又会后退一英寸，之类的。

You know, that that Stephen Fry saying we'll move you know, the general Melt chip will move forward an inch tomorrow, and then we'll move back an inch today, or whatever it is.

而这就是人们真正相信的事情。

And that that that's what people Yeah.

真的以为发生过这样的事。

Really do think happened.

这看起来像是一个稻草人论点：哦，他们看了《黑爵士》，所以这就是人们对第一次世界大战的看法。

And it can seem like a straw man that, oh, well, they saw Blackadder, so that's what people think of the First World War.

但你知道，你和我都明白，历史并不属于那些写历史书的人。

But, you know, you you you and I both know history history does not belong to the people who write history books.

他们只拥有历史的10%的解释权。

It it it they have they have this 10% of the ownership of what of what history is.

历史往往存在于大量的讨论中，它更多地是一个国家讲述自身故事的方式，而不是其他任何东西；你是什么样的人，往往反映在你喜欢什么样的历史，你对世界历史的看法也体现了你的为人、价值观以及诸如此类的东西。

History so often exists in in so much discourse that that it's the story you tell about yourselves as a country as much as as much as anything else, or that kind of person you are reflects the kind of history you like, And your view of world history is what kind of person you are and your values and all that sort of stuff.

我认为《黑爵士》对塑造人们关于第一次世界大战的认知有着强大的影响力。

And I think and Blackadder is such a powerful program for shaping people's ideas of the First World War.

如果没有那个结局，它也不会有如此大的影响力。

And wouldn't have been as powerful without the ending.

我正要

I was

正想说，那五分钟之所以特别，是因为这是一部喜剧节目，却敢于做大多数情景喜剧从未做过的事——让所有主要角色都死去。

just about to say that's the five minutes that because it's a comedy program daring to do something that most sitcoms never did, which is kill off all the characters.

我曾与制作这部剧的导演合作过。

And I worked with the director who who made that series.

他说，那是他们做出的决定之一，他认为我们就该这么做。

And he said that was one of those decisions where he said, this is what we should do.

他们甚至把这件事上报到了BBC的最高层，对方说：我们不能这么做。

And they'll and it and it went right to the top of the BBC where they're going, we can't do that.

这毕竟是一部喜剧节目。

It's a comedy program.

别傻了。

Don't be ridiculous.

但他们还是这么做了。

And they did it anyway.

然后，当然，BBC高层的所有人都为自己这个英明的创意决定互相击掌庆贺。

And and then, of course, everyone at the everyone in the brass at the BBC high fived themselves for their brilliant creative decision.

所以，是的，我的意思是，喜剧确实是绝佳的，我的意思是，我觉得，你知道，我宁愿看《万世魔星》而不是《角斗士》，来感受一下罗马帝国可能是什么样子。

So but, yes, I mean, yeah, comedy is comedy is an excellent I mean, I think, you know, I mean, I'd much rather watch Life of Brian than Gladiator to get a sniff of what Roman, the the Roman Empire might have been like.

有趣的是，《万世魔星》我觉得其实和《阿罗哈》非常相似。

Well, it's it's interesting that that, the, the Life of Brian, which I think is actually very like Aloha Lo.

它是一部对戏剧的戏仿，而不是像你说的，对某种类型剧的戏仿，我的意思是，

It's it's it's a parody of of a drama rather than of say you know, I mean,

它是一种戏仿，

it's a it's a parody

对某种史诗剧的戏仿。

of sort of saddle episode.

所有这类事情。

All that kind of stuff.

但我们上周做了一期关于帝国的节目。

But it it, we did we did an episode last week on empires.

是的。

Yeah.

我们一再被问到类似‘罗马人给我们带来了什么好处？’这样的问题。

And, we got asked again and again kind of variations of what have the Romans ever done for us.

在关于帝国是好是坏的整个辩论中，这句话总是会被提起。

And on the whole debate about, you know, our empires good things or bad things, that is the line that always gets brought up.

而且，每当出现任何政治派系斗争时，总是犹太人站在前台。

And, also, whenever there's any kind of political factionalism, it's always Judean people's front.

是的。

Yeah.

这两句话有着像伟大戏剧一样持久的影响力。

And those two lines have the kind of sticking power of, you know, any great drama.

它们以一种便捷的简略方式概括了极其复杂的历史背景，然后

They they sum up incredible historical complexities in a kind of convenient shorthand that can then

是的。

Yes.

它们会被讨论。

They're they're debated.

它们就像推特上的梗一样。

They're like they're like a meme on Twitter.

你知道的？

You know?

它们把事情概括得明明白白。

They they sum the thing up.

博施，你知道吗？

Bosch, they you know?

而喜剧演员们就最爱这种一说就引爆的段子。

And and comedians live for a thing that that lands that lands lands like that.

你知道吗，如果你能成功传达这样一个观点，那你就已经做到了——我的意思是，我依然觉得《布莱恩的一生》了不起的地方在于，蒙提·派森此前的作品一直在打破类型界限，创作没有笑点的短剧，总体上展现了他们作为杰出喜剧天才的才华。

You know, if you can if you can just get one thing through like that, you you've I mean, the I I mean, I still think what I love about Life of Brian is that, you know, Python's output up to them had had been up to them had been them sort of, you know, breaking breaking genres and and writing sketches without punchlines and and generally just showing what brilliant comic minds they were.

非常感谢。

Thank you very much.

然后他们把一个真实的话题放进他们的绞肉机里，结果就产出《布莱恩的一生》——这是一部结构极其连贯的作品，其中蕴含着那些明目张胆却深藏不露的深刻思想，我觉得这真的太棒了，没错。

And then they what they do is they then feed a subject, an actual subject into their mincer, and out comes life of Brian, which is the most coherent thing with incredibly, you know, ideas hidden hidden in plain sight and all that sort of stuff that I think is really just a fantastic Yeah.

而且而且

And and

还有神圣的

and the holy as

宗教和圣杯也是。

of religion and holy grail as well.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

圣杯

Holy grail

你知道，这种结构方式简直令人惊叹，因为我们之前也做过一期关于亚瑟王的节目。

You know, which is incredible in kind of the structuring, you know, because we've done an episode on Arthur as well.

基本上，那期节目的主题是它如何从各种不同的元素中拼凑而成。

And, basically, the whole theme of that was how it you know, it's meant to make up from all kinds of different bits.

是的。

Yeah.

而《圣杯》则彻底解构了整个体系。

And the way in which Holy Grail just completely destructs deconstructs the whole thing.

正是这种风格，太棒了。

Exactly that kind of it's brilliant.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

它表明，最出色的关于……的电影。

And it shows that The best film about.

这证明了，如果喜剧做得好，当然，它能像任何戏剧一样揭示深刻的道理。

Demonstrates that comedy can can, you know, if you get it if you get it right, of course, you know, can can shed as much light as as any drama ever could.

比如，一部关于亚瑟王的严肃戏剧，等等。

You know, a serious drama about King Arthur, whatever.

但一部喜剧电影，能够找到那种……圣手雷是个极其幽默的创意。

But, a comedy film that sort of finds it you know, the holy hand grenade is an incredibly funny idea.

安提奥克的圣手雷是个极其幽默的创意。

The holy hand hand grenade of Antioch is an incredibly funny idea.

阿尔，我问你一个问题。

Al, let me ask you this.

有没有

Is there

是否存在一种情况，即你显然对喜剧的近期历史或喜剧的一般历史有很多思考。

a is there a extent to which mean, you obviously think a lot about the recent history of comedy or the history of comedy generally.

是的。

Yeah.

但当我们讲述喜剧的近期历史时，是否有一种危险，即我们有时过度强调喜剧演员觉得有趣的东西，或者文化精英觉得有趣的东西，而不是那些——

But when we tell the recent history of comedy, is there a danger that we sometimes overemphasize things that comedians find funny or things that, as it were, cultural elites find funny rather than things that-

当然。

You bet.

让我给你举个例子。

So let me give you an example.

如果你比较《年轻人》的收视率，这显然很有影响力，而《海蒂·海》——我的意思是，他们谈的是奶酪。

If you were to compare the viewing figures of The Young Ones, which obviously was very influential, Heidi High, I mean, they're talking cheese.

《海蒂·海》的收视率要高得多，而且 arguably 更能反映二十世纪八十年代初英国人觉得什么是有趣的。

Heidi High was colossally more popular and arguably tells you more about what early eighties Britain found funny.

这可能让很多人感到不舒服，因为他们觉得《海蒂高》很无聊、很主流，而《年轻人》则更具颠覆性

Now that may be distasteful to a lot of people because they think, well, Heidi Eyes is rubbish and mainstream, and Young Ones is much edgier

而且更有趣。

and more interesting.

那个叫格拉迪斯·普格斯的家伙，就是她爱上的那个，是的。

The guy the guy the guy Gladys Pughes, the the one she was in love with Yeah.

西蒙·科德尔。

Simon Caudell.

他经营着

Who runs the

西蒙·科德尔。

Simon Caudell.

他会的，是的。

He he would yeah.

他以前是皇家空军飞行员，对吧？

He he was a RAF pilot, wasn't he?

所以他真是非常了不起。

So he was He's he's incredible.

来自战争时期。

From the war.

我觉得他曾是，不，不是。

I think he was a so there is a No.

不是。

No.

不是。

No.

他不是。

He no.

西蒙。

Simon

卡德尔不是。

Caddell wasn't no.

他曾是查尔斯·布兰德里思的同代人，而布兰德里思是他朋友。

He was a he was a contemporary of, Charles Brandrith, who's a friend of his.

不。

No.

但他扮演的角色。

But the character he plays.

这个角色。

The character.

是的。

Yeah.

这个角色很受欢迎。

The character is a favourite.

我觉得他是剑桥大学的博士之类的，对吧？

Think he's Cambridge dom or something, isn't he?

他离开学术界去经营一个度假营。

He leaves academia to run a holiday camp.