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我们星条旗与联合杰克在欢乐爱国人群舞动的头顶上骄傲地飘扬。
Our star spangled union Jack flutters so proud over the dancing heads of the merry patriotic crowd.
是的。
Yeah.
向这些美利坚征服者脱帽致敬。
Tip your hat to the Yankee conquerors.
我们床下没有赤色分子，枕下也没有藏着枪。
We got no reds under the bed with guns under our pillows.
我们是美国的第五十一个州。
We're the fifty first state of America.
是的。
Yeah.
我们是美国的第五十一个州。
We're the fifty first state of America.
好吧，正如英国摇滚乐队新模型军在1986年所说的那样，这句话深深打动了我们这些经历过八十年代的人——美国正在接管世界，而我们都正变成小小的美国人。
Well, so said the British rock band New Model Army back in 1986, capturing the sense very, memorable to those of us who lived through the eighties that America was taking over the world, and we're all turning into little Americans.
欢迎来到《历史的其余部分》。
Well, welcome to The Rest is History.
我是多米尼克·萨马鲁克，还有我这位小小美国人，汤姆·霍兰德。
And me, Dominic Samaruk, and my own little American, Tom Holland.
耶哈！
Yeehaw.
嘿，多米尼克。
Hey, Dominic.
你好。
Hello.
那么，汤姆，你觉得你是美国迷还是美国恐惧者呢？
So, Tom, are you do you are you an Americanophile or Americanophobe, would you say?
和每个人一样，我两者都是。
Like everybody, I'm both.
是的。
Yeah.
我爱美国。
I love America.
当然，每个人都爱美国和美国文化，但有时候我会对自己如此热爱它感到一丝怨恨。
I, of course, everyone everyone loves America, American culture, but there are times where I feel slightly resentful about how much I love it.
我想这是旧有的心态。
I guess that's the old frame frame.
我正要这么说，这非常英国，但当然，法国人也是。
I was about to that's a very British thing, but, of course, the French.
我的意思是，法国人既是最大的美国文化爱好者，也是最大的美国文化反感者。
I mean, the French are both I would say the French are both the biggest Americanophiles and the biggest Americanophobe.
他们一边谈论盎格鲁-撒克逊文化，一边却是全球最大的麦当劳消费者。
So they're the people who go on about Anglo Saxon culture and all this, but they're also the world's biggest McDonald's consumers.
是的。
Yeah.
对法国人来说，‘盎格鲁-撒克逊’这个词里，他们把英国和美国打包在一起。
I guess for the French, mean, then the word Anglo Saxon, they for that for the French, they have they bundle Britain in with America
他们确实如此，不是吗？
They do, don't they?
在某种程度上。
To a degree.
所以，你知道的，盎格鲁-撒克逊人。
So it's, you know, Anglo Saxons.
而对我们来说，总有一种挥之不去的感觉：是我们开创了这一切，现在却被他们接管了。
Whereas for us, there's the kind of nagging sense that we began it, and now they've taken over.
这有点像我们对待体育的态度。
It's a bit like us with sport.
我们发明了这些运动，然后别人都来打败我们。
We invent the sports, then everyone comes and beats us.
有点这种感觉，
And slight feeling like that,
我觉得，对于美国来说。
I think, with America.
这就像一个略显古板的年长兄弟，旁边有个酷得多的年轻兄弟，不是吗？
It's the slightly staid older brother with a much cooler younger brother, isn't it?
我总是这么想。
I always think.
当然，这种事你不会太熟悉，汤姆。
Of course, not something you'll be familiar with, Tom.
不。
No.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
我确实就是这么想的。
That is very much where I am.
我们也是这样。
That's where we are too.
所以，好吧。
So okay.
所以，美国化。
So Americanization.
你知道美国化这个词的来源吗？
Do you know do you know where the word Americanization comes from?
我希望你不知道，因为我打算告诉你。
I hope you don't because I want to tell you.
我不知道，多米尼克，而且我也不感兴趣。
I don't, Dominic, and I'm not interested.
那我们直接跳过吧。
So let's move right on.
那你继续说。
Then go on.
你显然一直憋着没说。
Tell you've obviously been saving it up.
保佑你。
Bless you.
我有。
I have.
我有。
I have.
所以，1902年出版了一本名为《世界的美国化》的书，作者是英国报纸编辑W.
So there's a book published in nineteen o two called The Americanization of the World by the British newspaper editor W.
T.
T.
斯蒂德。
Stead.
他当时谈到过。
And he talked then.
他基本上说，美国将取代大英帝国，而且我们会全都讲美式英语，诸如此类的事情。
He basically said The United States is gonna replace the British empire, and, you know, we're all gonna end up speaking American and all that kind of thing.
当然，他是对的，不是吗？
And, course, he was right, wasn't he?
我的意思是，我们确实已经美国化了。
I mean, we are we have become Americanized.
我的意思是，你和我都是那个年代的人，我想我们的父母看到我们会说：‘你们用了好多美国俚语。’
I mean, you and I are both of that generation that I think our parents would have looked at us and said, oh, you're using a lot of American slang.
你们穿美国风格的衣服。
You know, you wear American clothes.
你们看太多美国电视节目，之类的事情。
You watch American t too much American TV or that kind of thing.
某种程度上，我们确实是在美国的影响下长大的，或者至少生活在美國的阴影下，不是吗？
And we have, to some extent, grown up as little Americans or at least people in the shadow of America, haven't we?
是的。
Yeah.
因为我们成长于八十年代，那时我们是美国不可沉没的航空母舰。
Because we grew up in the eighties when we were the kind of unsinkable aircraft carrier for for America.
所以我们是第一空域。
So we were Airstrip One.
所以我认为，从二战到冷战期间，美国的军事力量、经济力量和文化影响力都至关重要，这既是美国化的一部分，同时也掩盖了美国实力的强硬本质。
So I think that after the Second World War, through the Cold War, American power, military power, economic power, the cultural power was a kind of crucial I mean, it was both a part of Americanization, but it also served to disguise the hardness of American power.
如果你喜欢牛仔裤、可口可乐和美国音乐，你可能会对本国境内大量美国飞机、美国主权领土以及美元所施加的经济影响力等问题没那么担心，诸如此类的事情。
If you were into jeans and Coke and American music, you might be slightly less worried about the large number of American planes, sovereign territory in your own country or the economic power that the dollar exercises, all that kind of thing.
我的意思是，这无疑是自二战以来人们对美国态度矛盾的一个特征。
I mean, that's that's been kind of a feature of the ambivalences towards America certainly since the since the second world war.
但事实上，我确实很感兴趣。
But, actually, I doc, I'm interested, though.
所以，'美国化'这个词可以追溯到20世纪初。
The so so the word Americanization dates back to the beginning of the twentieth century.
是的。
Yeah.
这个词是用来描述早在那之前就已存在的现象， presumably,
It's a word that is being applied to something that existed before that, presumably,
十九世纪，是的。
in the nineteenth Yeah.
实际上，我认为在十九世纪的大部分时间里，文化交流基本上是单向的。
So actually, I think most of the traffic was one way, pretty much one way, for most of the nineteenth century.
所以狄更斯去了美国，英国的音乐厅也进入了美国。
So Dickens goes to America, British Music Hall goes to America.
文化后来有一定程度的回流，但我们是老大，他们是接受我们文化的对象。
It does come back a bit, but we are the big daddy, and they are the kind of recipients of our culture.
但我想大约在1900年左右，开始出现反向趋势，我们开始阅读美国书籍。
But then I think there's a sense probably around about 1,900 or so that, it's starting to come back the other way, that we are reading American books.
我们开始熟悉牛仔之类的事物。
We are becoming familiar with cowboys and so on.
是的。
Yeah.
所以是水牛比尔。
So Buffalo Bill.
水牛比尔的西部秀巡回演出，取得了巨大成功。
Buffalo Bill is this world west show coming coming around and huge success.
还有美国的女继承人们纷纷来到这里。
And, also, American heiresses coming over.
对吧？
Isn't it?
没错。
That's right.
他们说这是因为《唐顿庄园》里有提到。
They said because that's in Downton Abbey.
所以它
So it
一定是真的。
must be true.
我给你讲个有趣的事。
And so here's a funny thing for you.
1914年，来自密苏里的T.S.艾略特在牛津大学，于第一次世界大战前在牛津联盟的一场辩论中就牛津大学的美国化发表了演讲。
In 1914, TS Eliot, who's from Missouri, is in Oxford, and he spoke in a debate at the Oxford Union 1914, so before the First World War, about the Americanization of Oxford.
他当时说了什么？
And And what was he saying?
他说他支持这个观点。
He said he was speaking for it.
你知道，当时的动议是：本议院谴责牛津大学的美国化。
You know, the the motion was now this house deplores the Americanization of moxin.
T.
T.
艾略特支持这一观点，他说，我们视自己为文化传教士，将美国的福音传播到世界各地。
Eliot was speaking for, and he said, we see ourselves as cultural missionaries taking the gospel of America out to the world.
我的意思是，他是以一种调侃的方式说的。
I mean, he said it in a teasing way.
很难想象T.
It's hard to imagine T.
S.
S.
埃利奥特竟然这么有趣。
Eliot being that being that funny, actually.
但是啊。
But yeah.
嘿，各位。
He Hey, guys.
哇哦。
Woah.
约翰，你模仿T.S.艾略特太精彩了。
That's a brilliant TS Eliot impersonation, John.
我的天，光是听你模仿这段，就值回这个播客的入场费了。
I I I mean, worth the the the entrance price to the podcast alone just to hear you do
我著名的名言：四月是最残忍的月份。
My my famous cheers April is the cruelest month.
干得漂亮，各位。
Way to go, guys.
是的。
Yeah.
好吧。
Okay.
但他当时在想什么？他以为牛津是怎么被美国化的？
But but what was he think say, what was he thinking that Oxford how was he thinking Oxford had been Americanized?
衣服、音乐，你知道的，还有表达方式。
Clothes, music, you know, expressions.
所以我怀疑P.G.伍豪斯早期的作品中，就融合了很多上层阶级俚语和美式俚语。
So I suspect PG Woodhouse's early books have a lot of the mixture of kind of upper class slang and kind of American slang as well.
这是P.G.伍豪斯的一个主要特点。
That's one of PG Woodhouse's big things.
然后我认为，如果我要挑一个标志着美国化发生的时刻，那就是1927年。
And then I think I think if I'm gonna pick one moment that I think marks Americanization, it's 1927.
是《爵士歌手》。
It's The Jazz Singer.
因为那是第一次，阿尔·乔森的这部电影让大量人群——数以百万计的人——第一次听到了美国口音。
Because that's the first time, the Al Jolson film, that people actually large numbers of people, millions of people are hearing American accents.
从二十世纪二十年代到三十年代，人们开始讨论这个问题，比如英国孩子在使用美国俚语，他们模仿电影明星。
And it's from that point in the twenties and thirties that you have I mean, you have people discussing this in parliament about the fact that English kids are using American slang, that they are or they're modeling themselves on movie stars.
第一部英国有声电影是由希区柯克拍摄的，我想。
And with the first British the first British film with sound was done by Hitchcock, I think.
他们宣传的方式是说：你可以听到地道的英语。
And the way they marketed it, they said, you can hear English as as as it should be spoken.
所以与其听这些 kinds of
So instead of instead of listening to all this kind
美国式的永恒宣传语。
of American Timeless marketing phrase.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这就是为什么
Well, that's why
我选择电影是基于口语英语的质量。
I choose a film based on the quality of the spoken English.
所以我认为从二十年代开始，这并非巧合，它发生在第一次世界大战之后。
So I think from the twenties onwards I mean, it's I have no coincidence that comes in the aftermath of the first World War.
而且我认为从二十年代开始，英国就一直存在这种持续的焦虑，特指英国。
And I think from the twenties onwards, you have this persistent anxiety in Britain, specifically in Britain.
我的意思是，其他地方也有不同的焦虑，但我觉得我们有一种非常独特的焦虑，那就是我们被美国化渗透了。
I mean, there are different kinds of anxiety elsewhere, but I think we have a very particular anxiety that we have been infiltrated, I guess, by American ness.
如今在关于文化战争的争论中，我们无意识地引进了这些美国观念，并且在争论它们，而这些观念其实并不适用于我们。
And you have that now when the arguments about the culture wars and so on, that we're actually we've just imported unthinkingly these American ideas, and we're arguing about them, they don't apply to us.
我觉得这是对的。
I think that's true.
但我认为，就文化战争而言，这恰恰是美国目前对我们影响最深的方式。
But I think that that it's interesting that in terms of the culture wars, which I think is actually the way that America is being most influential on us at the moment.
是的
Yeah.
我同意这一点。
I'd agree with that.
有趣的是，这与我们成长时的情况正好相反，那时右翼非常亲美。
What's interesting is that that, again, is a kind of flip from when we were growing up, when really it was the right that was very pro American.
再比如，回到英国的美国空军基地、格林汉姆公地抗议者、裁军运动，那时美国被视为敌人。
All the debate around Again, going back to US air bases in Britain, Greenham Common campaigners, CND, America was seen as the enemy.
撒切尔夫人不受欢迎，不仅因为她的个人原因，还因为她被视为里根的间谍。
Thatcher was disliked, not just for her own sake, but because she was seen as Reagan's mole.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
伦敦金融大爆炸及其后的金融爆炸性增长，被视为美国化的一个体现。
The the the the kind of the explosion of finance in in with the big bang and everything in London was seen as place of Americanization.
是的，金丝雀码头有着美国的风貌，比如摩天大楼之类的。
Yeah, so Canary Wharf had the look of America, skyscrapers and things like that.
所以，认为美国化是一种右翼工程的观点，我认为现在颠倒过来了，因为我觉得英国目前的辩论和热情很大程度上源自美国。
So the sense that Americanization was a kind of right wing project, I think that's now flipped because I think that the debates, the passions in in in Britain at the moment are massively coming from America.
我认为现在反而是左翼被美国化了。
I think now I think it's the left that's been Americanized.
所以我们现在在谈论盎格鲁-撒克逊人。
So we're talking about Anglo Saxons.
这种说法本身是有问题的。
The the sense that that is a problematic phrase.
是的。
Yeah.
所以你现在不再绝对这样说了。
So you're no longer now Absolutely.
但你不能再用‘盎格鲁-撒克逊’这个词来描述从罗马帝国退出不列颠到诺曼征服之间的时期，因为‘盎格鲁-撒克逊’现在被视为一种固有的种族主义和白人至上主义术语，但这种情况只存在于美国。
But you're no longer supposed to use the word Anglo Saxon to describe the period between the end of the Roman Empire in Britain and the Norman conquest because Anglo Saxon is seen as being an inherently racist white supremacist phrase, but that's only the case in America.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我见过这种情况。
I've seen that.
你参与过那个争论，对吧，关于
You've been involved in that argument, haven't you, on
推特上，那真让人气愤。
Twitter and one infuriating.
这让人气愤，因为你知道，他们说我们应该用‘早期中世纪英格兰’或者‘早期英格兰’，但实际上是英格兰防卫联盟。
It's infuriating because in you know, they want they say, well, we should use, you know, early early medieval England, or early English, But it's the English defense league.
不是盎格鲁-撒克逊防卫联盟。
It's not the Anglo Saxon defense league.
在英国，‘盎格鲁-撒克逊’这个词并没有那种含义。
Anglo Saxon doesn't have that connotations here in Britain.
这是一种纯粹的美国含义。
It's a purely American connotation.
但由于是美国学者主导，英国学者中的一些人便顺从地说：哦，我们必须废除这个短语。
But because it's American academics leading it, British academics or some of them kind of obediently say, oh, well, we must abolish this phrase.
而忽视了我们之前已经讨论过的事实，即‘盎格鲁-撒克逊’一词在法国人或德国人那里有着完全不同的含义。
And ignoring the fact that, of course, as we've already discussed, Anglo Saxon has a quite different connotation for the French or the Germans.
我认为这种有趣的变化在于，如今是左派被美国化了。
I think that that's been the kind of the intriguing change is that now it's the left that's been Americanized.
我实际上能在右派中听到对美国的某种怀疑声音。
I can actually get A strain of suspicion on the right about America.
是的。
Yeah.
我完全同意你的看法。
I completely agree with you.
我认为这在一定程度上是由互联网推动的，不是吗？
I think that's because it's partly been driven by the internet, hasn't it?
所以，如果你是一个积极参与的自由派、学术型、知识型的人，你会觉得自己是这场对话的一部分，而这场对话之所以被美国人主导，仅仅是因为用你的语言说话的美国人远比你们多。
So that if you're a sort of engaged liberal, sort of academic y, intellectually kind of person, then you're part of a sort of you see yourself as part of a conversation that's dominated by Americans simply because there are far more of them speaking your language than there are of you.
我想你在这一点上可以看到，比如我记得大约二十五年前，我在给本科生讲授美国的白人至上主义课程，那时白人至上主义是一个非常具体的概念，与奴隶制、内战结束后重建的不完整遗产，以及美国南方这些白人至上主义政权的建立密切相关。
And I think you see this in terms of so I mean, I remember sort of twenty five years ago teaching undergraduate courses about white supremacy in America, white supremacy being a very specific thing to do with slavery and the sort of incomplete legacy of Reconstruction at the end of the civil war and the creation of these kind of white supremacist regimes in the American South.
那是一种非常明确、具体的美国现象。
And it was a very distinct, specific American thing.
但现在，白人至上主义这个概念被非常模糊、笼统地使用，人们开始谈论英国和欧洲国家等地的白人至上主义。
And now, of course, white supremacy is a is a sort of concept that is banded around in a very vague, undefined way, and people talk about white supremacy in Britain and and and European countries and so on.
但这根本不是一回事。
And it's not the same thing at all.
他们本质上只是搬用了美国的一个术语。
What they've basically done is just taken an American term.
在几乎所有这些文化斗争中，情况都是如此。
And that's true in almost all these cultural battles.
推倒雕像的运动起源于美国。
The statue toppling started in America.
嗯，严格来说，它起源于南非。
Well, mean, of it started in South Africa.
但最引人注目的例子大多是美国的邦联雕像。
But a lot of the the the most notable examples are Confederate statues in America.
人们实际上是在模仿美国的做法，并将其套用到英国的文化语境中。
People copy effectively been copying what they see in The States and translating it to the sort of British cultural landscape.
我认为这是一个巨大的变化，因为当我们七八十年代成长时，自由派和自由主义者是不会这么做的，对吧？
And I think that is a big change because that's not something that left liberal people would have done when we were growing up in the seventies and eighties, is it?
我的意思是，他们当时会对这种想法感到反感，比如
I mean, they would have recoiled So from the idea of
问题是，这是否仅仅因为我们使用同一种语言，因而容易认为那些源自拉丁美洲的表述在这里也适用？
the question is, does it happen simply because we speak the same language and so we are prone to think that phrases that abandon Latin America have a relevance here.
还是说情况更复杂一些？
Or does it go further than that?
是否存在一种想要效仿美国的渴望？
Is there a desire to kind of be American?
所以某种程度上，你们在这里对抗白人至上主义之类的愿望，就像美国激进分子那样，这 presumably 是一种延续，可以追溯到六十年代的人们受到嬉皮士或音乐榜样的启发，再往前到五十年代的摇滚乐。
So in a sense, the desire feel that you're fighting white supremacy or whatever here in the way that radicals are in America, that presumably is kind of drawing it's part of a continuum that reaches back through people in the sixties being inspired by hippies or whatever, the example of music there, into the fifties through rock and roll.
我想归根结底，再回到三十年代和二十年代的好莱坞，美国本身就提供了一个模板，定义了什么是酷、什么是前沿、什么是时代精神。
I guess ultimately, again, going back to the thirties and the twenties through Hollywood, that America just kinda provides a template for for kind of, you know, what it is to be cool, to be cutting edge, to be on the zeitgeist.
是的。
Yeah.
确实有那么一点。
There is a bit of that.
一个很好的例子是六十年代英国对越南战争的抗议活动。
Actually, a great example, mentioned sixties, is the British protests against the Vietnam War.
我们的意思是，我们并没有参与越南战争，
Mean, we weren't in the Vietnam War,
但人们基本上还是
but basically, it's but people
仍然对此进行了抗议。
have protested about it anyway.
是的。
Yes.
所以这完全是美国化。
So that's that's pure Americanization.
我的意思是，这纯粹就是模仿，我们看到了，于是就在1968年的格罗夫纳广场照搬一套。
I mean, that's just that pure that really is just copycat kind of we've seen it, so let's do it in Grosvenor Square in 1968.
对。
Yeah.
我认为还有一种深藏心底的感觉，那就是美国是英国的某种实现。
I think there's also a deeply buried sense, I think, that America is the kind of fulfillment of Britain.
这显然可以追溯到十八世纪的美国独立战争，当时美国被视为英国自由经验的集大成者，我想，也就是英国内战中那个美好的旧事业的实现，美国正是这一理想的实现，而我们则在逐渐走向成为美国。
And that obviously goes back to the eighteenth century when in the US war of independence, that America was the kind of summation of the British kind of, you know, the liberal experience, I suppose, the good old cause of the English Civil War, that America was the realization of that, and that we were moving, you know, we're sort of moving towards becoming America.
但在法国不也是这样吗？
But that's also there in France, isn't it?
所以我在想，最早那些并非完全美国化、但以美国为榜样的例子之一。
So you have I'm kind of thinking one of the very first not exactly Americanization, but looking to America as an example.
据说在1778年左右，本杰明·富兰克林作为新成立的美利坚共和国驻巴黎大使，与伏尔泰会面，并向伏尔泰介绍了他的孙子。
There's a famous meeting in, I think, 1778, something like that, where Benjamin Franklin is the ambassador to Paris of the newly founded American republic and meets Voltaire and introduces his grandson to Voltaire.
伏尔泰用英语祝福了他，基本上说：美国，你真了不起。
And Voltaire kind of blesses him in English and basically says, yeah, America, you're great.
耶嗬！
Yeehaw.
相当。
Equivalent.
那就是
That that is
而且我们也有过欢呼。
also you've we've had cheers in.
这是我对伏尔泰的印象。
That's my voltaic impression.
耶嗬！
Yeehaw.
只是你不能，确实有，是的。
Just a You can't there's there's yes.
用美国口音的伏尔泰，这正朝着我未曾预料的方向发展。
Voltaire with an American accent, this is spiraling off in directions that I had not anticipated.
有一种感觉在那里。
There's a sense there.
我的意思是，就在一开始，伏尔泰就把启蒙运动的火炬交给了富兰克林，而富兰克林正是法国尚未成为共和国或类似政体之前，共和国的化身。
Mean, it's kind of just right at the beginning that Voltaire is handing over the torch of the enlightenment to Franklin, who is the embodiment of a republic before France has become a republic or anything like that.
这是一种新世界的感觉，而新世界是美好的。
The sense that it's a new world and new worlds are good.
是的。
Yes.
美国代表着未来。
It's America being the future.
我觉得过去几年真正有趣的是，这是我认为第一次美国不再让人感觉像未来。
And I think that's actually what's really interesting about the last few years is that that's the it's the first point that I can really think of when America has not felt like the future.
整个二十世纪，当人们争论美国时，或者说里根是——你知道的，尼克松是纳粹，里根是法西斯，诸如此类的说法时，他们从未怀疑过美国在某种程度上领先于欧洲。
When, so so all through the twentieth century, when people were arguing about America or when people said Reagan is a you know, Nixon is a Nazi, Reagan is a fascist, all this sort of stuff, they still never doubted that America was ahead of Europe to some extent.
我的意思是，美国确实是领先的。
I mean, America was literally ahead.
他们更早地看到了电影。
They got their films earlier.
他们率先推出了可口可乐、麦当劳、李维斯牛仔裤、摇滚乐，还有所有这些东西。
They pioneered Coke and McDonald's and Levi's and rock and roll and all this sort of stuff.
但我感觉在过去十年左右，尤其是特朗普那场混乱之后，人们开始觉得美国不再被视为人类的未来或西方的未来了，美国——你知道的，有一种明显的感受，觉得它走错了路，而且你能感受到西方人们对美国重新成为理想象征的渴望，这从很多人身上都能看出来，比如我和你肯定都知道，当拜登当选、就职，还有那些事情发生时，大家都说：‘太好了吧？’
But I detect in the last sort of ten years or so, especially with the the Trump sort of imbroglio, a sense that America is no longer seen as humanity's future or the West's future that America you know, there's this real sense of having taken a wrong turn or taken a and and you can sense the yearning that people have, actually, in the West for America to represent an ideal by the fact that so many people, you know, who I'm sure we both know when Biden was elected and when he was inaugurated and all all that sort of stuff, they sort of said, oh, isn't it great?
难道不是吗？
Isn't it?
但现在，当比利时更换领导人时，他们就不会这么说。
Now they they don't say that when there's the changing of the guard in Belgium.
你知道吗？
You know?
美国拥有这种特殊地位。
America has this special place.
但这里是否也存在一种悖论：尽管美国不再是一种道德典范，它却变成了一种邪恶的典范。
But isn't there also a kind of paradox that that that although America is no longer a kind of moral exemplar, it it is a kind of an it's become an exemplar of of evil.
所以如果你是，比如说，一个压迫性国家机器的受害者，最好是在美国受害，因为那样你的名字就会出现在标语牌和海报上。
So if you were the victim of, you know, an oppressive state apparatus, do it be one in America because then your name will be appear on placards, on posters.
确实如此。
Yeah.
在欧洲，人们会为乔治·弗洛伊德举行活动、游行和发表演讲。
In in Europe, people will campaign and march and give speeches about George Floyd.
但看看中国正在发生的事情，而你，你说得完全正确。
But you look at what's happening in China where And you, you're absolutely right.
是的。
Yeah.
但这并不是在处理那种道德问题，即美国人的生命是否比某个生活条件较差的人更重要。
But it's not not not dealing with the kind of the moral issues of of of whether an American life matters more than a, you know, someone in in a a weaker life.
但中国现在，正如我们之前讨论的，正在崛起。
But it's it's although China is now you know, we've talked about this, that China is kind of coming up.
感觉现在世界变成了两极格局。
It feels like it's, you know, it's now a bipolar world.
从某种意义上说，只要美国人的死亡在欧洲街头引起的关注，远超过一个民族整体被监禁的状况，那就不是这样。
In a sense, it isn't as long as the death of an American matters more in the streets of of Europe than, you know, the incarceration of an entire people.
是的。
Yeah.
因为我认为，这体现了美国所拥有的一切。
Because I think that that it's it's an expression of the whole that America has.
而且，再次回到白人至上主义之类的问题上。
And, you know, again, going back to kind of the idea of white supremacy and all that kind of stuff.
从某种意义上说，声称这种行为是独特邪恶、极其恶劣的，正是美国化的一种表现。
It in a sense, saying that this is uniquely evil, it's uniquely terrible is a is a manifestation of Americanization.
是的。
It's it's Yeah.
有点说美国更重要。
Kind of saying America matters more.
美国发生的事情比中国或其他地方发生的事情更重要。
It matters more what happens in America than what happens to in in China or whatever.
我同意这一点。
I'd agree with that.
我认为，无论是美国人还是撰写或谈论美国的人，都有一种感觉，即美国始终是中心。
And I think there's also a sense both for Americans and for people writing or talking about America, that America is always the center.
故事总是围绕美国展开。
The story is always about America.
所以，你知道，拉丁美洲某地发生政变，或者东亚某地发生革命。
So, you know, there's a coup somewhere in Latin America or or there's, you know, there's a a revolution somewhere in in East Asia.
你可以肯定，一定会有人上街抗议美国政府在其中的角色，并写书声称这一切都是中情局策划的。
And it you know, you know, you can bet your bottom dollar.
会有许多人游行抗议美国政府在其中的作用，并写书声称这一切都是中情局策划的。
There'll be people marching against the US government's role in it and writing books to say it was all plotted by the CIA and all that thing.
美国总是中心，也是故事的核心。
America is always the center and at the center of the story.
而且美国总是被以不同的标准来要求。
And America is always held to different expected Okay.
它被要求
It's held to
不同的标准。
different standards.
你不觉得它被要求
Don't you think it's held
是的。
Yeah.
我确实这么认为。
To I do.
但让我们稍微跳过这个有点绕的论点。
But but, just kind of moving on from that and and and slightly twisty argument.
所以我们一直在讨论英国，特别是英语世界，以及那些英语非常流利的欧洲地区，比如荷兰和斯堪的纳维亚国家。
So we've been talking about the relationship of Britain particularly and and the Anglophone world, and perhaps those parts of Europe that speak English very fluently, so The Netherlands and Scandinavia or whatever.
在法国，有一种众所周知的观念，那就是
In France, there's a the whole kind of you know, the is regard there's
真的被宠坏了。
there's really spoilt.
我做过这件事。
I've I've done it.
大陆口音。
Continental voice.
但是
But
但目前法国正展开一场重大的全国性辩论，讨论美国那种他们视为外来意识形态的做法是否适合法国。
but that that's kinda you know, there's a there's a major national debate going on about whether, American what they see as kind of alien ideological approaches are are suitable to France.
但我想进一步说，超越欧洲的界限和我们传统上所称的西方，我认为美国已经不再是中心了。
But I would say further, going beyond the bands of Europe and what we might traditionally describe as the West, I think that actually America is no longer the center.
所以我认为，在中东地区，美国一直莽撞地介入并到处发动战争，如今它只不过是众多行为体中的一个。
So I think in the Middle East where, you know, it's been blundering in and starting wars all over the place, actually, America is now just one actor among many.
在许多方面，中国和俄罗斯同样是极为重要的参与者。
In lots of ways, China and Russia are just as significant players.
我认为在亚洲，人们普遍觉得美国正在逐步撤退。
And I think that in Asia, where there's the feeling that you know, America is kind of on on retreat.
这无关紧要。
It it doesn't matter.
而且我认为，过去一年里所有那些事情，其实都无关紧要。
And I do think that there you know, all the stuff, you know, the past year, it's it's it's irrelevant
对他们来说。
to them.
但文化上不一样，汤姆。
But but not culturally, though, Tom.
对吧？
Right?
所以，为了开始讨论一些问题，雅各布·霍金斯问：美国化之所以可能，是因为英语已经是通用语吗？
So some to to start getting into some questions, Jacob Hawkins says, was Americanization possible because English was already the lingua franca?
这其实是个非常好的问题。
Which is actually a really good question.
然后他说，语言障碍是否会阻止中国版的美国化？
And then he says, will a language barrier prevent or whatever the Chinese equivalent of Americanization is?
那我们来继续你的观点。
So let's to pick up your point.
显然，中国的资金和政治影响力在非洲和欧亚大陆的重要性前所未有，甚至可以说正在超越美国。
Clearly, Chinese money and Chinese kind of political clout matters in Africa and in Eurasia in a way that it never did before and that is arguably eclipsing America.
这一点毫无疑问。
There's no doubt about that.
但没有人会把中国当作道德榜样，或者文化榜样，对吧？
But nobody looks to Chinese moral examples or to Chinese cultural examples, do they?
没人会为中国流行明星、中国电影，甚至中国的生活习惯和文化元素而疯狂，对吧？
Mean, nobody swoons before Chinese pop stars or Chinese films or or indeed, you know, even Chinese kind of cultural habits and stuff.
美国仍然占据优势，部分原因在于英语，因为大英帝国此前已经为英语成为商业和贸易语言做了大量铺垫。
It's still America partly because of English, because the British Empire had kind of done a lot of the heavy lifting for it in turning English into the language of business and commerce and stuff.
你不觉得，由于语言的原因，美国至今仍扮演着中国或许永远无法扮演的角色吗？
Don't you think that America still plays that part because of the language in a way that China perhaps never will?
是的。
Yeah.
也许吧。
Maybe.
我认为，如果你说一种语言，自然就会通过某种特定的视角来看待世界。
Think that if you speak a language, of course, you then see the world through a particular prism.
而你使用的词汇本身，就决定了你如何理解这个世界。
And the very words that you use determine how you understand the world.
我同意，当然，如果你说一种语言，你就更有可能对那个国家的电影、音乐等感兴趣。
And I agree that, of course, if you speak a language, then you're going to be more open to that country's films and music and so on.
但话又说回来，我觉得在意识形态和文化上，美国如今在亚洲的影响力，已经不如十年前，更不用说二十年前了。
But having said that, think that my sense is that ideologically and culturally, America matters less in in Asia now than it did ten, certainly twenty years ago.
我不禁怀疑，这种逐渐削弱的过程在未来几十年是否会加速。
And I I wonder whether that weathering process is going to accelerate over the next decades.
我猜测它很可能会加速。
I I would guess that it it probably would.
而且我认为，特别是在那些与中国人交流至关重要的领域，
And I would imagine that, certainly, in in areas that, you know, it's it's important to to speak to the Chinese.
人们不可避免地会开始学习中文，因为语言是文化、经济乃至军事实力的体现。
Inevitably, people are going to start learning Chinese because language is an index of cultural and economic and often military power.
这就是语言得以传播的原因。
That's why they spread.
这就是大英帝国能够将英语传播到世界各地的原因，也是美国将英语推广到全球的原因。
That's why the British empire managed to spread English around the world, it's why America spread English around the world.
而且我们
And we
我想你可能是对的，我们才刚刚开始这个过程，不是吗？
may I suppose you're right that we are only at the beginning of that process, aren't we?
所以，尽管现在除了中国人之外没人说汉语，也没人看中国电视节目之类的，也许五十年后情况会不一样。
So although nobody speaks Chinese now other than Chinese people, and nobody watches Chinese TV or anything like that, maybe in fifty years' time, it might be a different story.
当然，过去二十年我开始看更多中国电影了。
Well, I've certainly started watching more Chinese films over the past two decades.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得我从来没看过中国电影。
I don't think I've ever seen a Chinese film.
我知道这很让人羞愧。
I know that's very shaming.
嗯，我喜欢那些中国电影，里面的人全都跳过竹林、互相打斗。
I well, I I love all the brilliant Chinese films where they all jump through bamboo shoots and fight each other.
你知道，
You know,
这些都是很棒的作品。
it's all great stuff.
我知道我不是。
I'm aware that I'm not.
那是《卧虎藏龙》吗？
Is that a crouching tiger, hidden dragon?
这是一种趋势吗？
Is that a trend?
是的。
Yeah.
所以有一部很棒的，我们之前提到过的影片，是的。
So there's a wonderful So I have some that we mentioned yeah.
还有一部我们曾在迈克尔·伍德的播客中提到过的精彩影片，叫《英雄》，讲述的是第一位皇帝以及统一中国的故事，这简直是史上最自大的国家宣传。
And there's a wonderful film that we mentioned with in the podcast with Michael Wood called Hero, which is all about the, the first emperor and the the unifying of China, which is the most arrogant state propaganda imaginable.
我的意思是，它确实非常出色。
I mean, it's basically saying it's brilliant.
数百万人丧生，但这一切都是为了中国。
Millions of people die, but it's all for the cause of China.
但我以为你只是在讨好迈克尔·伍德。
But I I assumed I assumed you were just sucking up to Michael Wood.
我没觉得你真的会
I didn't I didn't think you'd actually
不。
No.
不。
No.
我真的是这么想的。
I really had.
我们现在要不要休息一下？
Should we have a break at this point?
我觉得应该休息一下。
I think we should
休息一下。
have a break.
休息一下。
Break.
是的。
Yeah.
这是休息时间，让我们听听赞助商的广告，同时享受一些糖果和可乐。
It's a break to hear from our sponsors while we enjoy some candy and Coke.
欢迎回到《余下皆历史》，我和我的搭档一起。
Welcome back to the rest is history with me and my partner.
汤姆·霍兰德是我的搭档。
Tom Holland's my partner.
我本来在想西部牛仔，但不是《断背山》那种意义上的牛仔。
I was sort of thinking cowboys, but, not in the Brokeback Mountain sentence with cowboys.
完全不是那么回事。
Very, very much not listened.
好的，汤姆。
Okay, Tom.
展开剩余字幕（还有 399 条）
我们来回答一些问题。
Let's do some questions.
我们来回答一些问题。
Let's get in some questions.
我先来开始，我会按顺序来回答。
I'm gonna kick off with I'm just gonna do them in in in order.
前两个问题是制作人一起写并读出来的，我会读出来。
So the first two, the producers written read together, which I will.
安东尼·桑德斯问：美国化在多大程度上是好莱坞和硅谷恰好都位于美国的偶然结果，又在多大程度上是因为它们的霸权地位？
Anthony Sanders says, how much of Americanization has been the accident of Hollywood and Silicon Valley both being from there, and how much is it because of their sort of hegemony?
所以这仅仅是巧合吗？
So is it just coincidence?
玛格丽特·伊德也提出了另一个关于美国化的问题。
And Margaret Iid said says another Americanization question.
与西欧其他地区相比，英国的美国化程度在多大程度上更高？这是否是因为语言的偶然性？
To what extent is there greater Americanization in Britain compared to elsewhere in Western Europe, and is this because of the accident of language?
所以这提出了两个偶然性的问题。
So it gets two kind of accident questions.
那么，汤姆。
So Tom.
嗯，我
Well, I
我认为，将美国化简单地归因于好莱坞和硅谷的偶然性是不对的。
think saying Americanization is simply an accident of Hollywood and Silicon Valley.
我的意思是，这两者都是美国实力的体现。
Mean, both of them are expressions of American power.
是的。
Yeah.
你需要资金。
You need the money.
你需要基础设施。
You need the infrastructure.
你需要那些能够让你的这些宏伟的、定义世纪的产业站稳脚跟的智力资本。
You need the intellectual capital that enables you to set these incredible massive century defining industries on two legs.
当然，这是一个良性循环，因为如果你在输出电影、软件、硬件或任何计算设备，你就是在传播你的文化影响力，不是吗？
And then, of course, it's a virtuous circle because if you are sending out your films, if you're sending out software and hardware or whatever for computing, then you're embedding your cultural power, aren't you?
是的，我觉得这没错。
Yeah, think that's true.
我的意思是，我认为好莱坞的成功中可能有一点偶然性，因为好莱坞恰好在第一次世界大战期间受益匪浅。
I mean, I think there's probably a tiny element of contingency with Hollywood in that Hollywood was very fortunate because of the First World War.
第一次世界大战基本上摧毁了它的竞争对手，尤其是法国电影产业。
So the First World War basically ripped out its competitors, so the French film industry particularly.
法国电影制作在第一次世界大战期间基本崩溃了。
French film production collapsed basically in the First World War.
战后，在20年代、30年代和40年代——电影的黄金时代，填补这一空缺的正是美国电影。
And afterwards in the '20s, there was an appetite for cinema, in the '20s and '30s and '40s, really the heyday of cinema, it was American films that filled the gap.
所以，如果没有第一次世界大战，好莱坞将会面临更多的竞争。
So had it not been for the First World War, Hollywood would have faced more competition.
但我认为你说得对。
But I think you're probably right.
这是最大的国内市场，不是吗？
It's the biggest domestic market, isn't it?
也是二十世纪最具活力的市场。
And the most dynamic market in the twentieth century.
所以好莱坞的诞生自然是水到渠成的。
So of course, was going to create Hollywood.
当然，硅谷之所以在美国出现，是因为需求和潜在消费群体远超其他任何地方。
Of course, Silicon Valley was gonna happen in America simply because, you know, the demand, the the the potential consumer base is so much greater than anywhere else.
还有军方，是的。
And the military because Yeah.
当然。
Of course.
军方对
The military The contribution of
军事对互联网和所有这些事物的贡献。
military to the Internet and everything.
再说一遍，你需要知道，这是其中关键的一个方面。
Again, you need, you know so that's a a kind of crucial aspect of it
也是如此。
as well.
是的。
Yeah.
不可能有别的结果了。
It couldn't have worked out any other way.
你不可能在荷兰出现硅谷。
You wouldn't have had Silicon Valley in The Netherlands.
我的意思是，这根本不可能发生。
I mean, that was never gonna happen.
嗯，我认为这引出了语言的问题。
Well, I'd I'd say that that brings us to the the issue of language.
我很想知道，如果我们有荷兰或斯堪的纳维亚的听众，他们的英语比我们还好，你是否觉得，你对英语的熟练掌握让你更容易受到美国文化的影响？
And I'd be interested to know I mean, maybe if we've got Dutch or Scandinavian listeners whose English is better than us, basically, do you feel that your facility with English means that you are more exposed to American influence than
但这里有一个很大的不同，汤姆，一个有趣的差异：不同的教育体系教授不同类型的英语。
But here's a big difference, Tom, an interesting difference, that different school systems teach different kinds of English.
好的。
Okay.
我妻子以前当学生时有个挪威室友，她说的是非常地道的英式英语。
You'll so my wife once had a Norwegian housemate when they were students who speaks very upper class English English.
因为在挪威，那种形式才是标准的。
Because in Norway, that's the form.
但在一些国家，人们说的是美式口音。
But in some countries, they speak with an American accent.
哪些国家？
Which countries?
其实是些邪恶的国家。
Villainous countries, actually.
邪恶的。
Villainous.
我不知道。
I don't know.
也许荷兰人？荷兰人说英语吗？
Maybe the Dutch Do the Dutch speak English?
美式化的英语？
Die Americanized English?
哦，我一直以为荷兰人说英语时带着荷兰口音。
Oh, I'd always thought the Dutch spoke with Dutch accent.
嗯，他们不可能摆脱荷兰口音。
Well, they they can't lose the Dutch.
是的。
Yeah.
他们不可能摆脱荷兰口音。
They can't lose the Dutch.
这毫无疑问。
That's for sure.
但如果我们换个角度想，我认为对我们来说唯一积极的一面是，这也让我们更容易入侵美国。
But just to turn this on the head, I mean, I suppose the one positive for us is that, it does also make it easy for us to then invade America.
所以在六十年代，你知道，五十年代，是的。
So in the sixties you know, in the fifties Yeah.
流行音乐入侵英国，而在六十年代，披头士等人则入侵了美国。
Popular music invades Britain, and in sixties, the Beatles and so on invade America.
而这纯粹是因为语言。
And that's purely because of the language.
对吧？
Right?
因为他们可以去美国。
Because they can go over to America.
他们用英语演唱，但也能接受采访。
They're singing in but they can do interviews.
他们可以做到，而这种英伦气质是任何美国乐队都无法比拟的名片。
They can and and the the Englishness gives them a calling card that no American band can match.
这赋予了他们一种异域风情，使他们与众不同。
So it gives them an exoticism, and it makes them different.
你知道，所有我们想到的——比如美国乐队来到这里时，他们那种美国特色就是一张名片。
And, you know, so all the things that's that that we think of I mean, American bands, when they come here, they have the Americanness, which is a calling card.
但我们的乐队那种非常英伦的风格，如果处理得当，就会显得古怪又有趣；如果他们能克制住这些特质，就能获得类似美国乐队无法企及的成功。
But our band's very Britishness, if they play it right, it's quirky, it's funny, and all those if they play the if they suppress those buttons, they can enjoy success that a similar American band couldn't.
或者法国乐队也一样。
Or a French band.
是的。
Yeah.
法国乐队根本不可能，因为他们一开口说话，人们就会嘲笑他们。
It'd impossible for a French band because they'd open their mouth and talk, and people would start laughing at them.
但就连达文波特也得用英语，你知道，他们全都是用英语演唱的。
But even Davenport have to you know, they're they're it's all in English.
是的。
Yeah.
这仅仅是印证了法国人对盎格鲁-撒克逊人的固有看法，而非特指美国人。
Which merely confirming French suspicions of the Anglo Saxons rather than specifically Americans.
或许值得注意的是，第一个真正走向全球的欧洲乐队
And perhaps it's telling that the first European band
我想是ABBA。
to really go global, I suppose, is ABBA.
他们来自一个人民英语水平极高的国家，因此英语说得非常好。
And they spoke very good English from country where people did speak excellent English.
好的，多米尼克。
Okay, Dominic.
下一个问题是来自杰克·达文波特的，事实上，他正是我们的……干杯，杰克。
Our next question is from Jack Davenport, who, in fact, is our So cheers, Jack.
谢谢你的提问。
Thanks for this.
当只有美国球队参加世界大赛时，世界真的被美国化了吗？
How Americanized has the world really been when only American teams take part in the World Series?
这是个很好的问题，杰克。
It's a great question, Jack.
他热爱体育。
Loves his sport.
很好。
Great.
是的。
Yeah.
这确实是个好问题，不是吗？
That is a good question, isn't it?
因为美国体育不行。
Because American sport no.
没人对美国体育感兴趣，是吧？
Nobody's interested in American sport, are they?
不。
No.
除非你是美国人。
It's Unless you're American.
这真是件奇怪的事，不是吗？
It's a really strange thing, isn't it?
美国在出口其他所有东西方面都如此成功。
That America has been so good at exporting everything else.
是食物、口味、文化习惯、服装。
It's food, it's taste, it's cultural habits, it's clothing.
但体育是唯一一项几乎完全失败的。
But sports is the one thing that is it's basically completely failed.
我的意思是，在英国——可能是所有西欧国家中最亲美的国家——有多少人能说出所有NFL球队的名字，甚至知道谁参加了超级碗，或者棒球比赛？
I mean, how many people in England, which is probably the most pro American country, you know, of all Western European countries, how many people know can name all the NFL teams or even know who is in the Super Bowl or or certainly baseball?
我的意思是，谁会在意棒球呢？
I mean, who cares about baseball?
这真的很奇怪，我想他们的国内市场足够大，以至于几乎不需要考虑为国际观众量身定制。
And that's a really strange I guess their domestic market is big enough that they almost don't need to worry about tailoring it for an international audience.
但我也觉得，现代国际体育项目是由大英帝国创立的，对吧？
But, also, I guess it's international sport was created by the British empire, wasn't it?
我的意思是，足球被推广到了世界各地。
I mean, football was exported.
板球、橄榄球显然也是，而美国可能介入得太晚了。
Cricket, obviously, rugby, and and America maybe entered too late.
你认同这个说法吗？
Would you buy that?
当美国的实力强大到足以输出自己的体育项目时，英国的体育项目已经根深蒂固了。
They came when when American power became big enough to export their sport, the British sports were already too well established.
但你可以说，关于足球，我知道我们接下来要
But you could say say with football, and I know we we're gonna
几周后请乔纳森·威尔逊来，专门做一期关于足球历史的节目。
have Jonathan Wilson on, in a couple of weeks to to do an entire episode on the history of football.
但你可以说，十九世纪和二十世纪初英国的权力和影响力遍布全球。
But but you could say that, British power and influence in the nineteenth century, early twentieth century spread around the world.
而英国相对衰落之后，它不再被视为一项英国运动，因此得以成为一项全球性运动。
And then Britain's relative decline meant that it was no longer identified as a British sport, so it could become a global sport.
而所有美国的东西都带有明显的美国色彩。
Whereas everything American is kind of American.
我们称之为美式足球。
We call it American football.
棒球是美国的一种象征。
Baseball is a kind of icon of America.
也许它与美国文化联系得太紧密了。
And perhaps it's just too culturally tied in with America.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我认为这确实是个很好的观点，真的。
I think that's a really good point, actually.
我的意思是，
I mean,
这是英国流行文化开始向外输出的一个方式，恰好发生在大英帝国失去其影响力的时候
that's one way that Britain so British popular culture started to be exported at the point at which the British empire lost its
它正在衰落。
It's fading.
影响力。
Potency.
换句话说，你可以接受披头士的音乐，而不必担心被视为无可救药的亲英派，被同龄人——你知道，那些民族主义的同龄人什么的——指责。
So in other words, you could embrace you could listen to the Beatles without, you know, betraying yourself as irredeemably pro British and being slagged off by your contemporaries, you know, national nationalistic contemporaries or something.
但美国体育，你说得对。
But American sport, you're right.
如果你在，我不知道，比如埃及之类的地方，是个狂热的NFL球迷，还特别钟情于克利夫兰布朗队，那会带来很多文化包袱，不是吗？
You if you're, you know, in, I don't know, Egypt or something, and you're a great NFL fan, and you're you're devoted to the Cleveland Browns, I mean, that's that that carries so much cultural baggage, doesn't it?
这将会是
That it would be
是的
Yeah.
你知道，从政治上讲，这是一个相当大胆的决定。
You know, politically, it's a sort of it's a brave decision.
确实如此，你知道，战后就是这样。
And it did, you know, it did in the after after the war.
你知道，球队会来到温布利，击败英格兰，这简直成了一种成人礼。
You know, teams would turn up to Wembley and beat England, and that would be a kind of rite of passage.
然后，英格兰就不再被当回事了。
And then and then England England would cease to register.
你知道吗？
You know?
英格兰只是众多踢足球的国家之一。
England was just another football playing country.
这根本没有任何重大意义。
It had no great significance at all.
而美国，我认为它将永远如此。
Whereas America, it will always be, I I guess.
而且我想，因为足球——我们称之为足球的这项运动——如此受欢迎，也许根本没有空间容纳我接下来要告诉你的这种生态系统。
But and and I guess because football is what we call football is so popular, perhaps there just isn't room for I'm gonna tell you what ecosystem.
一个体育故事，一个体育趣闻。
A sporting story, a sporting anecdote.
所以我在1998年法国世界杯期间，大概是在蒙彼利埃的一个广场上，他们搭起了一个大屏幕。
So I was in the nineteen ninety eight World Cup in France in, I think, Montpellier in a square, and they put up a big screen.
他们在那里播放所有比赛，所有球迷都聚在一起观看，互相交流。
And they showed all the games there, all the fans watched, you know, mingled.
那是一种典型的国际足联梦想：人们一起喝啤酒，愉快地互动，成为朋友。
It was this sort of, you FIFA's dream of people all drinking beer and mingling happily and being friends.
穿着贝纳通的衣服。
Wearing Benetton.
是的。
Yeah.
嗯，对。
Well, yeah.
有一段时间，我们结识了一群哥伦比亚人，还记得吗？我们当时在人群中，大概有两千到三千人左右。
So we'd fallen in with a group of Colombians at one point, remember, and we were in this crowd, Maybe, I don't know, 2,000 people, 3,000 people or something.
那场比赛是伊朗对美国。
And the match was Iran versus the United States.
这场备受期待的对决。
This long awaited showdown.
伊朗人都把花送给了
The Iranians all gave flowers to the
他们确实这么做了。
They did.
伊朗人转身
The Iranians turned
拿着花。
up with flowers.
对吧？
Right?
我们旁边有两个男人。
And there were two men next to us.
他们简直就是比尔·布莱森和史蒂文·斯皮尔伯格。
They were basically they were Bill Bryson and Steven Spielberg.
他们是美国的足球迷，带着腰包一起来的，当时正在那里做准备。
They were American soccer friends who traveled with their fanny packs, and they were there all preparing.
他们简直是铁杆球迷，但这太糟糕了，因为广场上所有人都非常热情地支持伊朗队。
They were, like, soccer devotees, and this was their and it was awful because everybody in the square supported Iran very passionately.
当伊朗队进球时，这两个美国人显得越来越沮丧。
And as the Iranian goals went in, these two Americans looked more and more disconsolate.
并不是因为他们的球队输了。
And it wasn't the fact their team were losing.
他们只是意识到，世界上其他人多么希望伊朗能赢。
It was just they realized how much the rest of the world desperately wanted Iran to win.
你知道的。
You know?
我们也是这样的。
That's that's that's we have the same.
我的意思是，每个人都希望英格兰输。
Does I mean, everybody wants England to lose.
真的吗？
Do they?
我从没觉得会这样，我不相信。
I'd never find I don't believe that.
橄榄球比赛时，他们确实会这样，我觉得。
Rugby, they do, I think.
真的吗？
Do they?
是的。
Yeah.
我想他们是这样的。
I suppose they do.
是的。
Yeah.
他们总是打板球。
They they always cricket.
真的吗？
Do they?
我的意思是，新英格兰在板球方面有强队吗？
I mean, New England, the big bands in cricket?
没有。
No.
不再有了。
Not anymore.
可惜，这是因为我们不够出色
Sadly, that's because we're not good
在那方面。
at that.
而且我觉得
And I
我不认为足球也是如此。
don't even think that's true of football.
我觉得苏格兰每个人都希望英格兰输掉比赛。
I think everyone in Scotland wants England to lose.
是的。
Yeah.
但我不认为欧洲人会说，只要是英格兰以外的队伍都行。
But I don't think people in Europe say, oh, anyone but England.
我的意思是，是的。
I mean Yeah.
他们只是觉得我们有点像喜剧角色，你知道的，每年都在四分之一决赛就出局。
I they just think we're we're slightly a comic turn that, you know, crash out in the quarterfinals every year.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我们失去了我们的恶名。
So we've lost our notoriety.
我的意思是，想象一下如果美国赢得了世界杯。
I mean, imagine if America won the World Cup.
想象一下如果真的发生了。
Imagine if that happened.
我的意思是，那将会是
I mean, would be
糟糕透顶，不是吗？
awful, wouldn't it?
那将会是，是的。
It would be the yeah.
是的
Yep.
是的
Yep.
好的
Okay.
哦，这是詹姆斯的问题。
Oh, here's question from James.
这是个非常好的问题。
It's an excellent one.
嗨，大家。
Hi, guys.
很喜欢这个播客。
Love the pod.
我们喜欢这样。
Say we like that.
美国化在多大程度上是美国例外主义的一种表现，而这种例外主义又受到美国国内普遍相信美国是上帝眷顾之国这一信念的影响？
To what extent is Americanization an American exception exceptionalism influenced by the widespread belief within The US that it's a nation blessed by god?
这是送给你的礼物，多米尼克。
It's a gift to you this Dominic.
约翰，你对此有什么看法？
John, what what's your view on that?
我认为我完全可以回答这个问题，不需要你任何意见。
I think I can answer this with no need for any, input from you.
不。
No.
我认为这绝对是一种深深植根于宗教观念的美国例外主义。
I think this absolutely, so American exceptionalism clearly a very religiously infused idea.
‘山巅之城’的理念，显然源自17世纪的英国清教主义。
The idea of the shining city on the hill, and that's an idea that they've got from seventeenth century English Puritanism, obviously.
但我觉得，无论美国人是否有宗教信仰，他们都共享这种信念，对吧？
But I think Americans, irrespective of their religious identity, share that sense, don't they?
他们有一种共识，认为美国是上帝选中的国家。
They share the sense that America is a nation chosen by God.
即使他们不信上帝，也认为自己是被选中的民族，他们的国家与众不同。
Even if they don't believe in God, they think they're a chosen people, and that their nation is special.
它代表的是一种理想，而不仅仅是一种共同归属的故事。
It represents an ideal rather than just a sort of a story of shared belonging.
而且它意味着——我的意思是，即使在美国最激进的政府批评者中，也常常会说，我们的国家本应超越这些，因为我们未能实现自己的理想。
And that it represent I mean, even people who are the most sort of radical critics of the American government within America will often then go on to say, because our country should mean something more than that because we failed to live up to our ideals.
这并不是真正的美国。
This isn't the real America.
这根本不是美国。
This isn't America.
特朗普骚乱之后，不每个人都这么说吗？
This is what everybody said after that Trump riots, wasn't it?
这不是美国。
This is not America.
这并不是我们真正的样子。
This is not who we are.
而美国以外的其他人也都说：不。
And everybody else outside America is saying, no.
不。
No.
这才是你们真正的样子。
This is who you are.
这就是美国。
It's it's America.
我们已经见识过。
We've seen
那些电影。
the films.
我们玩过那些电子游戏。
We've done the game, the video games.
我们知道，我们知道这一点。
We know we know this.
但确实如此。
But absolutely.
我认为这种灵感、这种理念完全是宗教性的。
And I think it is completely religious, this inspiration, this idea.
你不这么认为吗？
Don't you?
是的。
Yeah.
但从我们的角度来看，我认为这是英美新教传统中共同遗产的一部分。
And I but I think that from our point of view, I think that it's part of a common stock of kind of Anglo American Protestantism.
是的。
Yeah.
而且，再次强调，我认为这意味着我们之所以如此容易受到影响、如此开放并愿意接受它，是因为我们共享着一种共同的神学假设根基。
And, again, I think that that means that it's not just, one of the reasons that we're we're we're so kind of susceptible to it, open to it, ready to accept justice of it, is because we share a common kind of seedbed of theological assumptions.
所以人们应该被唤醒，人们深陷罪恶之中，圣灵应当降临，人们应当被唤醒。
So the idea that people should be awakened, that people are steeped in sin, that the spirit should descend and that people should be awakened.
于是你有了这场伟大的觉醒，它起源于英国，并在十八世纪传播到美国。
And you have this thing, the great awakening, that begins in Britain and spreads to America in the eighteenth century.
然后你接连经历了多次觉醒，因为当然，总会有一场觉醒。
And then you have a succession of them because, of course, you have an awakening.
人们获得重生。
People are born again.
他们的眼睛被打开。
They have their eyes opened.
圣灵降临在他们身上，然后他们又重回罪恶。
The spirit descends on them, and then they return back into sin.
而这
And it's
是一种
a kind
谈论伟大的觉醒是一种陈词滥调。
of truism to talk about the great awokening.
但我认为这明显属于这一传统。
But I think that it's manifestly in that tradition.
我认为，正是因此，它在这里产生了如此大的影响，因为我们同样继承了那种本质上属于新教的观念——我们迷失在罪恶中，需要被唤醒，意识到自己的道德责任。
And I think that that's why it's had the impact that it's had here is because we also are heirs to that kind of essentially Protestant sense that we're lost in sin, we need to be awakened to our our moral responsibilities.
这种类似《出埃及记》的圣经叙事——一个被奴役的民族被上帝选中，从邪恶的压迫者、帝国主义压迫者手中得救——在它明确的圣经形式中，正是马丁·路德·金将之奉为民权运动的核心精神。
The kind of and also the biblical narrative of Exodus of a a people in slavery who are chosen by God to be redeemed from the evil oppressor, the imperialist oppressor is is you know, this is, in its overtly biblical form, is something that Martin Luther King absolutely enshrined as the kind of the heartbeat of the civil rights movement.
如今，黑人的命也是命运动已不再明确带有基督教色彩。
Now with Black Lives Matter, that's not overtly Christian.
事实上，它常常在表面上反基督教，但它仍然明显汲取了这些传统。
Indeed, often it's it's in overt terms anti Christian, but it's still manifestly drawing on those traditions.
我认为，这正是它能如此顺利地在这里扎根的原因。
And I think that, again, that's why it's transplanted so easily here.
有趣的是，我们在英国已经失去了十八世纪曾存在的那种观念——即英国是那个被上帝选中的国家，是山巅之城。
The interesting thing is that we've lost what we have lost in Britain is the sense that did exist in the eighteenth century that Britain was that country, that Britain was chosen by God, and that Britain was the city on the hill.
我们现在没人相信这一点了。
We don't know one believes that now.
不。
No.
但我认为，你在英国看到的，以及在美国也看到的，是一种我们自身邪恶独特的感受。
But I think that that what you see in Britain, what you also see in America, which is a sense that we are kind of unique in our evil.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
我们确实有这种感受。
We definitely see that.
我们因自己的罪恶而获得尊严，我们是奴役者。
We're dignified by our wickedness, by we are the enslaver.
我们是巴比伦。
We are Babylon.
我们是邪恶帝国，因此我们需要为此悔改。
We are the evil empire, and therefore we need to repent of that.
只有通过悔改，我们才能被带入光明。
Only by repenting can we be brought into the light.
我认为，美国和英国的人都有一种感觉，即某种深层的邪恶污点存在于那里，需要被清除和悔改，这几乎是一种傲慢。
And I think that the sense that both America and Britain, that both Americans have and the British have, that that somehow there's a kind of deep stain of evil there that needs to be purged and repented for, it's a it's a kind of arrogance almost.
确实是。
It is.
绝对是的。
It's absolutely.
这是一种
It's it's a
一种，你知道的？
kind of You know?
同意。
Agree.
这是一种自恋。
It's it's a narcissism.
这让我们置身于历史的中心，成为历史的支点。
It's placing us at the center of history, at the fulcrum of history.
即使一百年前，那是因为大英帝国很强大。
Even if, you know, a 100 years ago, it's because the British empire was great.
现在则是因为大英帝国格外邪恶。
Now it's because the British empire was uniquely evil.
这是一种自恋。
It it it's a kind of narcissism.
我同意你的看法。
I agree with you.
意思是，
Mean,
这确实是英国和美国共同拥有的东西。
that that's something that Britain and America definitely share.
世界上没有任何一场冲突，不会有人把责任归咎于大英帝国画错边界，或是CIA以国际化的美国资本主义之名进行阴谋。
There's no conflict in the world that there won't be somebody who says it was either British Empire's fault for misdrawing maps or it's the CIA's fault plotting in the name of international Americanized capitalism.
而且他们总是把自己置于故事的中心，以及自己的道德缺陷之中。
And it's always putting themselves at the center of the story and their own moral failings.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为在法国，比如，你不会看到同样的情况，不会。
I don't think you get the same thing in France, for instance No.
这本应是我们最明显的对照。
Which would be the obvious parallel to us.
是的。
Yeah.
不会。
No.
法国人并不这么认为。
The French don't think that.
当然，正如我们在上一集中讨论的，像荷兰人这样的国家，对自己的帝国感到非常自豪。
And, of course, as we discussed in a previous episode, people like the Dutch are, you know, delighted by their own empire.
嗯，也不是没有。
And Well, not no.
公平地说，荷兰人也不是全部如此，因为荷兰人也属于这个盎格鲁-美国大西洋新教世界。
To be fair for Dutch, not not all because the Dutch also were part of this Anglo American Atlantic world of Protestantism.
所以我认为，荷兰人在某种程度上也是如此，也许。
So I think that the the Dutch also are, to that extent, perhaps
我不是在写一个
Am I not writing a
你也在发表评论吗？
comment as well?
大型美国政府调查显示，荷兰人对自己帝国历史的自豪感超过其他人？
The big UGov survey shows the Dutch are prouder of their own imperial past than anyone else?
我认为他们说有40%的荷兰人如此，但这也意味着有60%的人并不如此。
I think they said that 40% of the Dutch were, but also that means 60% aren't.
而且荷兰国内有着巨大的争议，比如那个节日人物黑彼得，他出场时会涂黑脸？
And there are huge you know, there's huge debates in in in The Netherlands about, was it Black Pete who is a festive figure who turns up wearing blackface?
我认为这种辩论在很大程度上是由美国的文化关切所驱动的。
And I think that's a kind of very much the kind of debate that is informed by American cultural concerns.
所以，不管怎样，挺有意思的内容。
So anyway, yeah, interesting stuff.
我们还有其他问题吗？
Do we have another question?
哦，有个很好的问题。
Oh, here's a great one.
这是一个很好的问题。
Here's a great one.
这特别适合你。
This is very much for you.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
蒂姆·卡特问：MTV和《老友记》在推广美国化方面，是否比美国外交政策更有影响力？
Tim Carter, was MTV and Friends more instrumental at exporting Americanization than US foreign policy?
好的。
Okay.
所以我实际上从未看过《老友记》更广泛地说。
So I've actually never seen Couldn't you more generally?
我看过《老友记》的一集，而且我永远不会再看。
Seen an episode Friends, and I never will.
我现在就告诉你，免费的。
I'll tell you that now for nothing.
为什么你对《老友记》这么反感？
Why why why why the hostility to Friends?
我只是就是讨厌那种
I just I just hate the
那种想法就是你的本质。
the thought It's what you are.
是不是太甜腻了？
It's the syrupy, isn't it?
它全都太感伤了，那种感觉，我不知道，反正不是。
It's all sentimental kind of, it's, I don't know, kind of No.
它其实挺搞笑的。
It's very funny.
你是不是《老友记》的铁粉？
It you like you a big fan of Friends?
我确实在它播出的时候看过《老友记》。
I was I certainly watched Friends when it was on.
是的。
Yeah.
这真是糟糕透顶。
This is this is poor stuff.
好吧。
Okay.
那么，相比美国的外交政策，他们对推广美国文化的影响更大吗？
So were they more instrumental in exporting Americanization than US foreign policy?
是的。
Yes.
毫无疑问。
Undoubtedly.
更广泛地谈论它们。
Talking about them more broadly.
早在1920年代，威尔·海斯——美国电影产业的负责人——就曾说过，电影对我们而言，就像枪炮、国旗和制造业之于英国一样。
So as far back as the 1920s, Will Hayes, who was the sort of head of the American motion picture industry, said, the film, the cinema is to us what the gunboat and the flag and the kind of the manufacturing were to Britain.
因此，这些影片将把美国价值观传播到世界各地。
So these are gonna carry American values all across the world.
当然，它们确实做到了。
And, of course, they have.
美国政府，甚至中央情报局，在冷战期间投入了大量资金支持艺术和美国文化，因为他们深知软实力往往比硬实力更为重要。
And the American governments and, indeed, the CIA, actually, put a lot of money in the Cold War into backing the arts and into backing American culture because they were well aware that soft power was often much more important than than hard power.
人们可能会抵制硬实力，但不会抵制软实力。
That there'd be resistance to hard power, but not to soft.
我认为，是的，MTV有趣的地方在于，MTV最初播放的都是英国乐队的音乐视频，因为美国乐队当时还完全受制于这种形式。
And I think, yeah, MTV funny thing about MTV, of course, is that MTV at first was British bands because they had got they'd done videos with and American bands were very slaves to it.
但更广泛地说，摇滚乐，我不太清楚美国电视的情况，但美国电影确实如此。
But but rock and roll more broadly, and I don't know about American television about but certainly American film.
我认为电视，当我成长的时候，美国电视被视为有点廉价且粗俗。
I think TV, they were you know, American TV, when I was growing up, was seen as slightly cheap and nasty.
你不会同意它有点像ITV吗？
Wouldn't you agree that it was kind of, you know, it was a bit ITV?
《达拉斯》。
Dallas.
嗯，就是《达拉斯》。
Well, Dallas.
是的。
Yeah.
《达拉斯》。
Dallas.
我的意思是，
I mean,
那基本上是关于美国资本主义的种种弊端。
it was so that was so that was all about the kind of evils of American capitalism, basically.
但那正是它之所以成功的原因。
But it made it because that's that was doing.
所以，这就是美国版的《唐顿庄园》，对吧？
So that's America's answer to Downton Abbey, isn't it?
它本质上是在推销一个关于自己的刻板印象。
It's basically selling a stereotype of itself.
是的。
Yeah.
因为人们想要的，你知道，就是那种牛仔帽和得克萨斯石油大亨的玩意儿。
It that people want to you know, it's basically pandering to the kind of the sort of cowboy hats and and Texas oil men.
我的意思是，我们拍乡村庄园剧的时候，不也是这么干的吗？
I mean, that's what we do when we set make country house dramas.
这不过是你们自身品牌最通俗浅显的版本。
It's just the lowest common denominator version of your own brand.
是的。
Yes.
这或许是一个美国化现象的有趣例子，你觉得呢？
Which is kind of an interesting example of Americanization perhaps is what's it?
就是Netflix上的那个。
That one on Netflix.
《布里奇顿》。
Bridgerton.
是的。
Yeah.
我从来没看过。
I've never seen that.
那是非常美国化的一个版本，而我对此非常谨慎。
That's a very Americanized version of And I'm very cautious.
我不能谈论它，因为我也没看过，所以我并不想讨论我没看过的东西。
I can't talk about it because I haven't seen it either, so I don't really want to talk about something I haven't seen.
但没错，这确实看起来是非常美国化的一种表现
But, yes, that does seem to be a very Americanized
不是的。
of No.
这太严厉了。
That's very that's very harsh.
无论如何，让我们跳过这个极其不公平的指责，直接进入斯蒂芬·克拉克的问题，他是节目的好朋友。
Anyway, let's move straight on from that incredibly unfair aspersion to a question from Stephen Clark, good friend of the show.
他是个很好的
He a good
节目好友。
friend of the show.
青少年是美国化时期最伟大的遗产吗？
Is the teenager the greatest legacy of the period of Americanization?
青少年这个概念确实是美国化的产物。
So teenagers are it's it's definitely Americanized.
这个想法是由一位美国公关人士创造的。
It's an American PR man's creation, the idea.
它起源于我认为的20世纪30年代。
Comes from, I think, the '30s.
部分原因是美国孩子比欧洲同龄人更早拥有金钱和独立性，主要是因为如果经济状况良好，美国的经济表现得更好。
And it's partly because American kids had money and independence earlier than their European equivalents, basically because the American economy, if you were doing well, was doing better.
所以这完全关乎市场。
So it's all about the market.
这完全关乎你能接触到的消费品。
And it's all about the consumer goods open to you.
这是美国化时期最大的遗产吗？
Is it the greatest legacy of the period of Americanization?
这是个有趣的问题。
It's an interesting question.
我的意思是，青少年绝对是美国的发明。
Mean, teenager is definitely an American creation.
之前已经有青少年了，也存在过少年期。
There'd been adolescents, that'd been teenagers.
是的，这是我最大的成就吗？
And yeah, is it the my greatest legacy?
我的意思是，这确实是伟大的成就之一，不是吗？
I mean, it's one of the great ones, isn't it?
它是
It's
看到你真正地思考，真是太好了。
It's it's it's so great to see you genuinely thinking.
这种情况太罕见了。
Happens so rarely.
这是一个重大的历史问题，而看到
Happens so A huge historical question and to see
你强大的大脑。
your mighty brain.
嗯，你知道的，我正在筛选这么多其他可能性。
Well, you know, I'm sifting through so many alternatives.
而且
And
我认为，就此打住吧，你可以回去好好想想这个问题。
I think I think that on that note, we should, we should come to an end because, you can go away and have a ponder on that.
好的。
Okay.
我们可以起身准备下一期播客了，它将重返欧洲。
And we can get ourselves up for our next podcast, which will be, coming back to Europe.
我们即将探讨普鲁士与德国的诞生，嘉宾是作家兼历史学家卡特娅·霍耶。
We're we're we're looking at, Prussia and the birth of Germany with the writer and historian Katja Hoyer.
所以我会说
So I will say
我们已经做过了，这真是个很棒的多米尼克，我推荐一下。
We've done it already, and it's actually a very good Dominic's I recommend it
给听众们。
to the listeners.
多米尼克，多米尼克，你彻底打破了这种幻觉。
Dominic Dominic, you've totally spoiled the illusion.
现在我们进入了一种
Now we're in a kind
回到未来的状态。
of back to the future.
我觉得人们会喜欢这个。
I think people will like that.
我觉得他们喜欢这种不确定性。
I think they like the sense of uncertainty.
他们录下来了吗，还是没录？
Have they recorded it, or haven't they?
是的。
Yeah.
我们已经录好了，朋友们。
We've already recorded it, guys.
多米尼克彻底破坏了这种试图营造
Dominic's totally torpedoed that attempt to try and create
一种紧迫感和危险感的尝试。
sense introduce a A sense of urgency and jeopardy.
你有点
You kind
引入了欧洲后现代主义，彻底毁了这一切。不过，就此打住，再见。
of introduced European postmodernism there and totally ruined Anyway, on that note, bye bye.
再见。
Bye bye.
感谢收听，其余的都是历史。
Thanks for listening to the rest is history.
如需获取附加剧集、提前收听权限、无广告收听体验以及加入我们的聊天社区，请前往 restishistorypod.com 注册。
For bonus episodes, early access, ad free listening, and access to our chat community, please sign up at restishistorypod.com.
网址是 restishistorypod.com。
That's restishistorypod.com.
现代史上最黑暗的丑闻之一：一位亿万富翁金融家。
One of the darkest scandals of the modern A billionaire financier.
强大的朋友关系。
Powerful friends.
隐秘的网络。
Hidden networks.
以及那些挥之不去的问题。
And questions that refuse to go away.
杰弗里·爱泼斯坦是一名间谍吗？
Was Jeffrey Epstein a spy?
我是戈登·卡雷拉。
I'm Gordon Carrera.
我是大卫·麦卡洛基。
And I'm David McCloskey.
我们是
And we're
《机密余音》的主持人，这是一档由Goal Hanger出品的关于情报与国家安全的播客。
the hosts of the rest is classified, the intelligence and national security podcast from goal hanger.
我们刚刚发布了一个引人入胜的新系列，深入调查爱泼斯坦是否与任何情报机构有关联。
And we've just released a gripping new series investigating whether Epstein was linked to any spy agencies.
并探讨这些机构可能对他了解多少。
And asking what those agencies might have known about him.
现在就在Spotify、YouTube上收听或观看，
Listen or watch now on Spotify, YouTube,
或在您收听播客的任何平台收听。
or wherever you get your podcasts.
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