30. 一场王室争吵

从前，英国王室喜欢通过去歌剧院来娱乐自己。

Once upon a time, the British royal family entertained themselves by going to the opera.

现在，他们通过造访奥普拉震惊了世界。

Now they shock the world by a visit to Oprah.

接下来，让我们以制片人带来的这个糟糕至极的双关语为开场，欢迎收听《历史其余部分》特别版，我是汤姆·霍兰德，我们的王室记者多米尼克·桑德布鲁克。

And with that truly terrible pun courtesy of our producer, I welcome you to a special edition of The Rest is History with me, Tom Holland, and our royal correspondent, Dominic Sandbrook.

多米尼克，我们决定制作这期特别节目，是因为——是的。

And, Dominic, we've decided to have this special edition because Yes.

当然，来自加利福尼亚的重磅新闻——哈里王子和梅根的采访。

Of course, the bombshell news that's, come from California, the, the interview with prince Harry and Meghan.

基本上，我认为每隔一段时间，新闻中就会出现一些事件，以极其有趣的方式揭示了历史的宏大脉络，也许我们该直接做一期‘大猩猩特辑’。

And basically, I guess the idea is that every so often, something will happen in the news that sheds such an interesting light on the broader sweep of history that perhaps we should just do a gorilla episode.

所以我们现在就这么做了。

So that's what we're doing.

我承认，这个主意是我提的，而你当时对此有点怀疑。

And and I confess it was my idea and you were slightly skeptical about this.

所以让我先从

So let me just let me begin by

问观众，汤姆·荷兰。

asking watcher, Tom Holland.

是的。

Yes.

我的意思是，我们首先不是在讨论哪一方对或错。

I I mean, first, we're we're not talking about the rights and wrongs here of of which side we're taking.

但更广泛地说，作为一位现代英国史学家

But more broadly, you as a historian of modern Britain

对。

Yeah.

假设你活到一百岁，正在撰写2020年代的英国历史。

Suppose you lived to to a 100 you were writing the history of Britain in the twenty twenties.

我猜你会把这一事件写进去。

I'm guessing I'm guessing that you would include this episode.

我的意思是，即使就在事件发生后的第二天，你也会说，是的。

I mean, even now, a day after it, you would say, yeah.

这很可能值得写上一章。

This is probably worth a chapter.

我会这么写。

I would.

我认为，因为在我之前写的书中，安妮公主的婚礼、银禧庆典，还有戴安娜的婚礼，都曾出现过。

I think because in previous books that I've done, the wedding of princess Anne, the silver jubilee, the obviously, Diana's wedding, they've all kind of featured.

所以你知道，它一直是国家叙事的一部分，不是吗？

So that you know, it's always part of the national story, isn't it?

王室早已融入了我们讲述国家故事的脉络中，而这正是此事如此具有爆炸性的原因。

The monarchy is woven into the stories that we tell about about the country, and that's, of course, why this is so incendiary.

你说得对。

And and and you're right.

我的意思是，即使是对温莎王朝、王室或王室故事完全反感的人，也很难回避这个故事，因为它让人觉得，这引发了关于英国性、名人文化、种族、阶级等众多议题的讨论，我相信我们接下来会深入探讨这些。

I mean, even for people who absolutely can't stand the house of Windsor, can't stand the monarchy or royal stories, it's hard to avoid this story because it feels like, you know, it opens up lots of discussions about Britishness, about celebrity, about race, about class, about all these kinds of things, which I'm sure we'll get into.

而且我想这也关于美国，是的。

And I guess also about about America because Yeah.

好吧，我们确实经历了美国化，是的。

Well, we did the Americanization Yeah.

其中一部分。

Part of it.

所以。

So

这在昨天发布了。

which which went out yesterday.

从某种意义上说，这关乎美国化。

And this, in a sense, is kind of a thing about Americanization.

我想王室在三十年代的退位危机中就经历过美国化，这显然是一个类似的案例，即华莉丝·辛普森嫁给爱德华八世并离婚。

I guess the the royal family had its experience of Americanization in the thirties with the abdication crisis, and that's the kind of obvious parallel, Wallace Simpson marrying Edward VIII and divorcing.

但我的意思是，这略有不同，因为她的美国身份其实并不是问题，对吧？

But I mean, slightly different because her Americanness wasn't really the problem, was it?

她是个离婚者。

She was the divorcee.

那才是当时的问题。

That was the issue then.

汤姆，我不太同意你这种说法。

I don't know that I'd go quite along with that, Tom.

我认为，在1936年，沃利斯·辛普森的问题并不仅仅在于她是离婚者。

I think that being a divorcee wasn't obviously the bulk of the issue with Wallace Simpson in 1936.

但我认为，她的美国身份也是一个因素。

But I think the Americanness was an element as well.

因为她是个美国人，所以人们把她看作一个暴发户、外人，甚至有点粗俗。

So because she was American, she was seen as a kind of parvenu, as an outsider, as a bit vulgar.

我的意思是，这一直是英国人对美国人那种略带优越感的看法，不是吗？

I mean, that's always been the sort of British slightly condescending view of Americans, hasn't it?

而且，我们在关于美国化的播客里也谈过，美国社会的女继承人来到英国，就像亨利·詹姆斯小说里的人物那样，这些女性远渡重洋，最终嫁给了英国贵族，获得了实实在在的头衔。

And I mean, we were talking in our Americanization podcast about American society heiresses coming to the sort of Henry James novel characters, these women coming over and getting themselves entitled I mean, literally, well titled British husbands.

当时，沃利斯·辛普森被视为这一故事的顶点。

And Wallace Simpson was seen at the time as the sort of culmination of that story.

显然，这个故事中也带有一丝类似的元素。

And obviously, there's a slight element of that with this story as well.

我的意思是，我认为梅根的美国背景是文化冲突的关键，甚至比其他因素更重要。

The fact I mean, I think Meghan's Americanness is key to the kind of culture clash as much as anything.

而且我觉得，我觉得，我认为这正是这个故事如此精彩的原因。

And I I think I I mean, I think it's re that's why I think this is actually a really fantastic story.

你有没有读过前葡萄牙欧洲事务部长布鲁诺·马塞的一本书？

I have you have you come across, a a book by, the former Portuguese, Europe Minister, Bruno Massage?

我看过这本书。

I I I have seen it.

是的。

Yeah.

欧亚大陆。

Eurasia.

他写了关于欧亚大陆的兴起。

He writes about dawn of Eurasia.

是那个是那个

Is that is that

是特朗普吗？

is Trump?

是的。

Yeah.

但他最近的一本书是关于美国的，他提出了一个我认为非常精彩的论点：从里根到特朗普，里根将好莱坞的 glamour 和好莱坞的手法带到了华盛顿。

But he he his most recent book was on is on America, and he he posits this, I I think, brilliant thesis that what's happened between Reagan and Trump is that Reagan kind of brought the the the glamour of Hollywood and and the methods of Hollywood to to Washington.

但特朗普基本上把华盛顿带入了大众娱乐的轨道，创造了一种许多美国人觉得比现实更吸引人的美国幻想版本。

But Trump, basically, he he kind of brought Washington into the orbit of mass entertainment and essentially created a kind of fantasy version of America that lots and lots of Americans found more compelling than the reality.

借助社交媒体、有线电视等一切手段，作为美国人，你可以完全沉浸在一种幻想世界中，现实几乎无法介入。

And that basically with social media and cable TV and everything, you can basically, as an American, inhabit a complete world of fantasy, and reality barely kind of intrudes.

无论是左派还是右派，人们都构建了关于美国本质的完整幻想。

And both on the left and the right, people construct entire fantasies about what America is.

从某种意义上说，梅根正是这种现象的代表，因为她来自娱乐行业，而娱乐业历来是美国化的重要推动力。

And in a sense, Meghan is a kind of representative of that because she's from the entertainment industry, which historically has been a kind of great motor of Americanization.

她本质上将这种幻想式的理念带到了英国，即成为一位公主的理念。

And she essentially has brought that kind of fantasy idea to Britain and the idea of becoming a princess.

你知道，她把自己比作小美人鱼。

You know, she compared herself to the little mermaid.

我的意思是，这一切都深深植根于电影、电视剧、肥皂剧这类东西的世界。

I mean, everything everything is kind of drawn from the world of movies and TV dramas and melodramas and things like that.

通常，当这样的人进入王室的圈子时，都会被它压垮。

And usually, when people like that come into the orbit of the royal family, they get crushed by it.

戴安娜就是最明显的例子。

Diana would be the obvious example.

她曾幻想自己的王子是白马王子，但一切变得极其糟糕，最终被压垮了。

I mean, she had fantasies about her prince, Prince Charming, it all went horribly wrong, and she was crushed by it.

但梅根带着庞大的娱乐产业的背景而来，更重要的是，她能通过娱乐产业的视角来看待世界，这与英国版本的王室幻想碰撞在一起，而后者同样深植于幻想之中

But because Meghan comes bringing behind her the heft of this enormous entertainment industry, and more importantly, the ability to see the world through the prism of the entertainment industry, it's run crash into the British variant of that, which is essentially a kind of royal one, which, again, is kind of steeped in fantasy and and and

是的

Yeah.

一种不可思议的传统。

Kind of incredible tradition.

而且我认为，这是第一次，英国版本处于下风。

And basically, for the first time, I think, the the British variant is coming off worse.

我的意思是，我认为它在国际公众舆论的较量中表现得更差。

Well, I mean, I think it's coming off worse than the battle for international public opinion.

这一点毫无疑问。

There's no doubt about that.

但王室，英国君主制，真的需要在意国际公众舆论吗？

But the royal family the British monarchy doesn't need to care about international public opinion, does it?

我的意思是，只有一组公众舆论。

I mean, there's only one set of public opinion.

需要。

Does.

我不这么认为，汤姆。

I don't think it does, Tom.

我觉得那是‘Boulder Dash’。

I think that's boulder dash.

我真的觉得那是‘Boulder Dash’，因为那样是用错误的标准来评判它。

I really think that's boulder dash because then that's judging it by the wrong standards.

你看，我觉得这是用美国电视行业标准，也就是你们美国的电视标准来评判它。

See, I think that's judging it by the American TV if you like, your American TV industry standards.

我认为英国王室真正需要关心的只有一个选民群体，那就是英国本土民众——当然，他们还有澳大利亚、加拿大等国家，但主要还是得关注英国国内的观众。

I think that the the British royal family only really has to worry about one constituency, and that is the the British I mean, of course, they've got Australia, Canada, and so on, but it has to worry about the British domestic audience.

但他们还有英联邦，这就是为什么女王在采访播出的前一天晚上还在谈论这个话题。

But they've also got the Commonwealth, which is Well, that's why to the queen, and she was talking you know, giving her message about that the evening before, the the interview went out.

因此，种族主义的指控才如此具有煽动性，因为我觉得这真的很重要。

And that's why the charge of racism is so incendiary because I think that really does matter.

我认为这在美国显然很重要，那里这绝对是引爆点问题。

I think it it obviously matters in The United States where it's absolute lightning rod issue.

但我认为，这对女王在英联邦中所扮演的角色至关重要，当然，对王室在英国作为某种团结象征所起的作用也同样重要。

But I think it does matter for the role that the queen has played in the Commonwealth and, of course, very obviously for for for the role that the royal family plays in Britain as a kind of unifying symbol.

不过，汤姆，关于这一点其实有个非常有趣的地方。

Although, there are the really interesting thing about that, Tom.

昨天我在思考这个问题，关于对王室的种族歧视指控以及种族问题。显然，在过去24小时内，尤其是来自《卫报》这一派立场的人士发表了大量评论，称王室是殖民主义和种族偏见的象征，等等。

Now I was thinking about this yesterday about the racism charge and and the race issue with the royal family, and, obviously, they've they there have been a lot of there's been a lot of commentary in the last twenty four hours of particularly from sort of this sort of guardian wing of the spectrum saying, well, the royal family is a symbol of colonialism and a symbol of of of racial prejudice and all the rest of it.

但事实上，如果你回顾过去五到六十年，英国最明显地表现出非种族主义倾向的机构，可能就是王室——这个最古老的传统机构。

And yet, actually, when you look at the last fifty or sixty years, the institution in Britain that's probably been done more than any mean, the sort of venerable institution that has been most overtly non racist is probably the monarchy.

我的意思是，在五十年代和六十年代，当政客们急于采取强硬的移民政策、不愿被看作对移民过于宽容时，女王却是最常与黑人儿童合影、在非洲迎接人群的公众人物。

I mean, the queen in the fifties and sixties at a time when politicians were keen to take a hard line on immigration and not to be seen as soft on immigration, the queen was probably the one public figure who was most often photographed with black children or greeting crowds in Africa and all that sort of thing.

正如你所说，英联邦对女王而言极其重要。

As you say, the Commonwealth is hugely important to the queen.

女王很早就把自己塑造成了一位领导多元文化、多元种族的英联邦的象征，而非一个由白人主导的帝国。

And the queen quite early on, she wrapped herself in the robes of, I'm leading a multicultural, multiracial Commonwealth rather than a white dominated empire.

她在这些方面走得比五十年代和六十年代的保守党政府远得多。

She she went went much further along those lines than the sort of Tory governments of the fifties and sixties would have done.

所以，在她生命的最后时刻，这个问题却重新成为头条新闻，这真是一种讽刺。

So there's a kind of irony that at the very end of her life, that issue is the one that has sort of come back to dominate the headlines.

是的。

Yeah.

但正因如此，我认为这种指控才如此具有破坏性，因为我认为王室一直有效地充当了多元文化、多元种族英国的象征。

Which but that's precisely why I think that the charge is so damaging, because I think that the monarchy was effective as a symbol of a multicultural, multiracial Britain.

我的意思是，我住在布里克斯顿。

I mean, I live in Brixton.

我知道查尔斯王子在这里做了很多工作。

I know prince Charles has done lots of work here.

非常受欢迎。

Very popular.

但现在却潜藏着一种怀疑。

But there's kind of lurking suspicion now.

我认为这极具破坏性，而且它确实具有国际影响，因为王室……你知道，王室是英国的象征。

I I I think it's so I think that is incredibly damaging, and I think that it it does have a kind of international resonance because if the monarchy you know, the monarchy is a symbol of Britain.

是的。

Yeah.

如果你的象征被看作是道德上有污点的，那就会成为一个问题。

And if if if your symbol is is seen as as kind of morally tainted, then that becomes a problem.

你从特朗普身上就看到了这一点。

You saw that with with Trump.

我的意思是，特朗普对美国的国际形象造成了很大损害，因为总统职位同样也是美国的象征。

I mean, Trump was very damaging his reputation internationally for for America because the presidency, likewise, is a symbol of of of The United States.

所以。

So

但这也有一部分原因，简而言之，汤姆，这只是肥皂剧的最新一集。

But there's also an element to this, which is just as shortly, Tom, it's just merely the latest twist in the soap opera.

我的意思是，我们之前做过一期关于王室的节目。

I mean, we did a thing about the crown.

我们谈过王室，对吧？之前系列里提到过。

We talked about the crown, didn't we, earlier in the series?

再说一遍，先生，我敢肯定你内心深处收藏了一堆印着汉公主画像的茶巾，因为你总是提出这些以王室为主题的播客点子。

Again, your suggestion, mister you know, I I'm convinced that deep down you have a collection of tea towels with princess Han's face on it because you're constantly coming up with these monarchy themed podcast ideas.

但你知道，从某种意义上说，过去24小时发生的事，就像是编剧室会构思出来的最新剧情转折。

But but, you know, the in a sense, what's happened in the last twenty four hours is kind of what you know, it's it's what the writer's room would come up with as the latest twist in the drama.

我不认为存在一种情况，即人们在英国的街头巷尾因这件事的发生而震惊、难以置信地来回踱步。

I don't think there's an element I don't think people are walking up and down the streets of Britain in a state of shock reeling with disbelief that this could have happened.

我的感觉是，人们觉得：嗯，这件事迟早会发生。

I mean, my sense is that people think, well, this was obviously gonna happen at some point.

我的意思是，这本来就在剧本里。

I mean, this was kind of in the script.

过去两年里，这早就写在剧本里了，而且显然迟早会到来。

It's been in the script for the last two years, and it was obviously coming.

你不这么认为吗？

Do you not think?

不。

No.

我觉得我不，不。

I think I I I no.

我不这么认为。

I don't think so.

我的意思是，我认为有两股煽动性的力量，它们具有特定的代际影响力。

I I I don't I mean, I think that there were kind of two incendiary charges, and they're incendiary because they have a particular purchase, kind of generationally.

是的。

So Yeah.

种族主义问题是一个，另一个是心理健康问题。

The the the the issue of racism is is one, and the other one is the mental health.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那种指责王室对此漠不关心的说法。

The that accusation that the the royals didn't care about that.

而且我认为这其中或许确实有几分真实，因为女王本身就是那种坚忍克制的象征。

And and I think that you can see there's a kind of perhaps an element of truth to that because the the queen is the embodiment of the kind of stiff upper lip.

是的。

The Yeah.

那种安静而严肃地履行职责的态度，从不谈论事情，只是压抑一切，继续前行，保持冷静，继续前进。

The the the the quiet and sober commitment to duty, never talk about things, just suppress everything, just carry on, keep calm and carry on.

是的。

Yeah.

那就是那种理想。

And that's the kind of ideal.

但它与另一种理想发生了冲突，这种理想我指的是，基本上是千禧一代的理想，即你应该谈论你的问题，心理问题不应当只是压抑，而应该被倾听，而且你应该获得一个真诚的听众。

And it comes up against another ideal, which is one I mean, it's basically kind of the millennial ideal that you should talk about your problems and that having mental health problems is something that you shouldn't just bottle up, that and and that talking about them, know, you should be given a decent a audience.

所以我认为这有点像一种代际深水炸弹。

And so I think that this is slightly different because it it's like a kind of generational depth charge.

我认为40岁左右的人——这是一个有点任意的分界线，但我认为对他们来说更重要，而不是对年纪更大的人。

I think that people 40 say you know, slightly arbitrary dividing line, but I think it matters more to them than it does to people over.

我认为这在民意调查中有所体现，比如我们这个年龄段的人

And I think that that's reflected in the polling, that people, let's say, of our age

是的。

are Yeah.

稍微不那么同情，倾向于稍微少一些同情。

Slightly less sympathetic, inclined to be slightly less sympathetic.

我认为毫无疑问存在巨大的代际差异，不是吗？

I think there's no doubt that there's a huge generational divide, isn't there?

我女儿昨天回学校了，我问了问，你们会谈论这件事吗？

I mean, my daughter went back to school yesterday, and I sort of asked, know, do you talk about it?

他说，哦，当然了，我们当然都完全站在哈里和梅根这边。

He said, oh yes, I mean, you know, Of course, we're all completely on Harry and Meghan's side.

我的意思是，这根本不是个问题。

I mean, it wasn't even an issue.

所以我认为这就是原因，这也是为什么我从不告诉你该怎么写你的书。

So I think that this is kind of and that's why I reckon that I'd never tell you how to write your book.

但很明显你会的。

Well, you're clearly going to.

但但但作为一种方式，你知道的？

But but but as a way of of kind of you know?

就是这样，你说得对，当然。

And that's what and you're right, course.

你现在要告诉我怎么让这一章更有趣一些，对吧？

You're now gonna tell me how to make this chapter more more interesting, aren't you?

我知道。

I know it.

我现在要说的是，多米尼克，你可以把这个作为切入点。

I'm gonna say now, Dominic, you should use this as a way into.

谢谢你的建议。

Thanks for that.

谢谢你，汤姆。

Thanks for that, Tom.

这很有帮助。

That's very helpful.

但作为一位擅长揭示更广泛社会趋势的人，你不觉得这之所以有趣，是因为它揭示了某种相当重要的代际演变吗？

But would you not say, as someone who is brilliant at finding ways to shed light on broader social trends, one of the reasons why this is interesting is that it does shed a light on what is quite a significant generational sense of evolution.

是的，确实如此。

Yes, it does.

而且这和九十年代戴安娜的故事如出一辙。

And I suppose in exactly the same way as the Diana story did in the nineties.

我刚才在想我们之前做的关于九十年代的播客，那时我们最后谈到了善意、情感表达和哭泣。

You see, was thinking about this in the context of the podcast we did about the nineties, where we were talking at the end about kindness and about emoting and about crying.

这些事情在九十年代仿佛是一个分水岭。

These things has kind of the nineties felt like a watershed.

用‘分水岭’这个词来形容，考虑到哭泣的比喻，也不算太牵强。

Mean, with a watershed is not too much of a pun given the crying analogy.

但特别指的是戴安娜。

But Diana in particular.

戴安娜的访谈。

Diana interviewed.

所以戴安娜是这一时期的代表。

So the Diana is the president for this.

我认为这确实体现了你所观察到的一种趋势。

And I think there's definitely an element to which this is the playing out of a trend that you've seen.

我们谈论心理健康，或者说是公开暴露自己的家丑。

We talk about mental health or the sort of the airing of your linen.

在后九十年代的社交媒体时代，公开暴露自己的家丑似乎成了一种以前不会做的事情。

The airing of your linen in public feels like something that you do in a post nineties social media age in a way that you might not have done before.

但所有这些之外，显然还有一个更广阔的背景，那就是1936年的退位危机。

But all of that said, there's also a much wider context, obviously, which is that you've got the abdication crisis in 1936.

实际上，英国历史上充满了王室内部的激烈冲突。

And, actually, British history is littered with royal bust ups that are Right.

是的。

Okay.

正如我说的，每个世纪都有类似的情况，

As as in century as they I mean,

这可能甚至更多。

this is not Possibly even more.

但让我们休息一下。

But but let's let's have a break.

现在我们休息一下，之后再回到更长远的视角。

Let's have a break now, and, we'll come back perhaps to the longer view.

大家好，欢迎回到我们的《梅根：不安的历史》特别节目，我是汤姆·霍兰德，与多米尼克·萨姆洛克一同主持。

Hello, and welcome back to our, Megan, The Restless History special, with me, Tom Holland, and Dominic Samrock with me.

所以，多米尼克，让我们从更宏观的历史角度来审视这个问题。

So, Dominic, let's put this in the broader sweep

的历史长河中。

of history.

让我们。

Let's.

我们之前谈到了美国式的幻想，但王室在某种程度上也是英国独特幻想的焦点，因为女王之所以是国家元首，是因为她接受了涂油礼，她是上帝所膏立的。

So we talked about, kind of the American, brand of fantasy, but there's a sense in which the royal family is a kind of focus for a distinctively British brand of fantasy because, you know, the the queen is head of state because she's been anointed, and the ritual of anointing she's the anointed of God.

我的意思是，这可以追溯到阿尔弗雷德大帝之前，甚至更早到大卫王和所罗门王的时代。

I mean, this goes all the way back to, you know, before the time of Alfred the Great, ultimately to, king David and king Solomon.

而女王显然将这一点视为

And the queen clearly takes this

现在确实如此

Now it is

一段非常悠久的历史。

a long seriously.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，你知道，我对此非常

And, you know And I take it very

认真，汤姆。

seriously, Tom.

而女王的统治，据称是源自沃登神的血脉传承。

And the queen rules, you know, in a line of descent from the god Woden.

所以，是的。

So Yeah.

这就是她统治的原因。

That is why she rules.

王室是不同的。

The royal family is different.

血统这一概念非常重要。

The the the idea of a bloodline is significant.

这显然与现在人们视为正常的许多观念相冲突。

And that obviously grates against quite a lot of things that people take for normal now.

我想，这个故事之所以具有煽动性，部分原因在于它确实稍稍引起了人们对这一点的关注。

And I guess that one of the reasons that this is an incendiary story is that it does slightly focus people's attention on that.

在一定程度上确实如此，但我认为任何有历史意识的人都知道，王室、君主制的故事始终伴随着可怕的家族内斗、王朝纷争和婚姻灾难。

It does to an extent, but I think people, anyone with a sense of history knows that the royal family, the story of the monarchy has always been attended by kind of hideous familial bust ups, dynastic rouse, marital disasters.

我的意思是，就我所读到的而言，这是一场可怕的危机。

I mean, I think about, you know for all that I read, this is this terrible crisis.

你想想乔治四世加冕时的情景，他的妻子——他已疏远的妻子——被手持刺刀的士兵 physically 阻止进入教堂，而周围人群对她大声喧哗。

You think you think about the coronation of George the fourth when his wife, his estranged wife, was physically barred from entering the church by men with bayonets while the crowd kinda howled around her.

她非常伤心。

And she's so upset.

她就是卡罗琳·布伦瑞克，他一直试图与她离婚。

This is Carolina Brunswick who he's tried to divorce.

他指控她通奸。

He's accused her of adultery.

他公开持续地反对她。

He's, he's campaigned against her in in public.

她试图参加加冕典礼。

She tries to get into the coronation.

但她被拒之门外。

She's barred.

他派卫兵不让她进去。

He has these guards not let her in.

她在雨中被淋得透湿。

She gets soaked in the rain.

她三周后去世，而在她的葬礼上，爆发了骚乱，人们在葬礼的冲突中丧生。

She dies three weeks later, and then at her funeral, there's rioting, and people are killed in the fighting during her funeral.

王室就这样安然无恙地驶入了十九世纪二十年代和三十年代更为平稳的水域。

And the monarchy kind of sails on untroubled into the into the, the safer waters of the later eighteen twenties and eighteen thirties.

我的意思是，这其实和王冠这个东西有关。

I mean, this is kind of part it's that it's that crown thing.

我认为，人们一直有一种倾向，比如喜欢谈论亨利八世和他的妻子们，或者爱德华四世和伊丽莎白·伍德维尔。

I think there's there's always been an element of people enjoying you know, think about Henry the eighth and his wives or Edward the fourth and Elizabeth Quigville.

一直以来，人们在酒馆里都热衷于这类丑闻和八卦。

There has always been an element of people in that sort of taverns loving the scandal, the gossip.

你知道，王室在我们的集体想象中占据着一种奇特的位置——它既是你说的那样一种神圣的制度。

You know, there's that strange place the monarchy has in our collective imagination where it is both, as you say, this sort of sacred institution.

但它也始终有着凡俗的一面，掀开裙摆，看看底下那些肮脏的东西，这一直是英国人或英格兰人生活中最主要的乐趣之一。

But it also always has feet of clay and sort of lifting the skirts and seeing the the sort of the the the dirt the beneath, if you like, has always been one of the the chief pleasures in life of being either British or English.

不过好吧。

But okay.

但回到这个观点，女王作为上帝选中的君主来统治，是的。

But to come back to this idea that the the queen rules as some as god's anointed, as Yeah.

作为这种非凡血统的后裔。

The the the descendant of this kind of extraordinary lineage.

这就是她统治的原因。

That's why she rules.

她和整个王室都融入了一种独特的理解——关于教会、血统，最终是关于封建观念的理解，这些观念令人惊讶地完好存续至今。

And she and the whole royal family are kind of meshed into a distinctive understanding of the church, of of of bloodlines, ultimately, of kind of feudal notions that, you know, have have survived kind of amazingly well into the present day.

这就像在非洲丛林里发现一只快乐游荡的异特龙什么的。

You know, it's kind of like finding an allosaur in in the happily roaming the the the jungle in Africa or something.

但我认为，梅根对此的看法中一个有趣之处在于，对她来说这是无法理解的。

But I I think that, again, one of the things that's interesting about about Meghan's take on this is is that to her, it's incomprehensible.

所以她提出的两项指控，或者说两个故事。

So so two of the things two of the charges she brought up, one or or stories.

她说，她和哈里三天前在花园里由坎特伯雷大主教主持了婚礼。

One was that, she got married by the archbishop of Canterbury with Harry in a garden three days before.

而且她把彩排误认为是婚礼。

And mistaken the rehearsal for a Absolutely.

还有真正的婚礼。

A And the wedding.

所以坎特伯雷大主教为她祝福了，她以为那是一场婚礼，但其实不能算，因为涉及教会法的复杂细节。

So the arch and the archbishop of Canterbury gave her a blessing, and she thought that this was a a wedding, but it can't be because of complicated details to do with canon law.

我的意思是，梅根对教会法有任何概念吗？

I mean, does Megan have any conception of canon law?

没有。

No.

我的意思是，这对她来说无关紧要。

I mean, it's unimportant to her.

同样，她还指控说，她的儿子没有被称作王子，我想是因为某种种族歧视之类的原因。

And likewise, the charge she said that, you know, that, that her son, did wasn't called a prince, I think, because of whatever, racism or whatever.

而事实上，这是因为关于谁有资格成为王子的复杂纹章法规定。

Whereas, in fact, it it's because of, you know, complex heraldic laws about who's

谁是乔治五世时期的王子，这一点显而易见。

Less is patent.

乔治五世时期谁有资格称王子。

Who's a prince in the time of George the fifth.

汤姆，别告诉我你不像我一样认真对待这件事。

Tom Tom, don't tell me you don't take this thing seriously as seriously as I do.

但关键是，对梅根来说，这一切难以理解、令人困惑、荒谬可笑，只能用某种更阴暗的动机来解释。

But the point so so the point is is is that to Meghan, it's it's incomprehensible and baffling and ridiculous and ludicrous and and can only be explained by kind of darker motives.

而她对必须向女王行屈膝礼感到震惊，不是吗？

Whereas She was shocked that

她得向女王行屈膝礼，不是吗？

she had to curtsy to the queen, wasn't she?

我觉得这非常能说明问题。

Which I thought was very telling.

是的

Yeah.

但如果你是家谱学家、王室纹章官，或者，你知道的，坎特伯雷大主教，你也不必想象自己是个纹章官。

But but if you, you know, if you if you are a genealogist or, a herald for the royal family or, you know, the Archbishop of

坎特伯雷大主教，或者，你知道，我不必把自己想象成纹章官。

Canterbury or, you know I don't have to imagine myself as a herald.

但所有这些事情都极其重要。

But But all this all this kind of stuff matters hugely.

是的

Yeah.

从某种意义上说，梅根只是突显了所有嫁入王室的人所面临的问题，因为按定义，他们都是平民，所以凯特也经历了很多困难。

And that and and in a sense, Meghan just kind of sharpens the problem that, everyone has who who marries into a royal family because, by definition, they are commoners, and it it's difficult for so Kate had it tough.

戴安娜 famously 也经历了很多困难。

Diana notoriously had it tough.

但当然，你提到了安妮·博林和伊丽莎白·伍德维尔，她们也是嫁入王室的平民的著名例子。

But of course, you've mentioned Anne Boleyn and Elizabeth Woodville, who are also famous examples of commoners who married into royalty.

安妮·博林拥有

Anne Boleyn had a

被砍掉了头。

head chopped off.

嗯，这些例子略有不同。

Well, they're slightly different examples.

安妮·博林是典型例子，因为她出身平民。

Anne Boleyn is an executor because she's a commoner.

当然，伊丽莎白·伍德维尔就没被砍头。

Course, Elizabeth Woodfield isn't She doesn't have her head cut off.

但她们俩都惹上了麻烦。

Now both of them get into trouble.

我认为，在那个年代，平民嫁给王室成员时，往往会带着自己的家族，而家族会期望获得一定的庇护和恩宠，比如博林家族在亨利八世的宫廷中，这就意味着他们会树敌。

I think because in those days, for a commoner to marry into the royal family, the commoner arrives with their family and their family expect a degree of patronage, you know, the boleyns at the court of Herman the eighth, and that means they make enemies.

因此，总有一些人在暗处说：‘瞧这些暴发户，这些乡下土包子，现在却把所有好职位都抢走了。’

So there are always people in the shadows who are sort of saying, oh, those upstarts, these provincial kind of hayseeds who are now hoovering up all all the the sort of plum jobs.

这意味着平民在进入王室时会遇到问题。

And that means that the commoner arriving encounters problems.

我认为，如今平民进入王室反而成了更大的问题，因为你必须清楚自己要面对的是什么。

I think the commoner, as it were, arriving now is more of a problem because the commoner, you have to know what you're signing up for.

一个非常成功且颇具趣味的王室与平民联姻的例子是兰尼埃亲王和格蕾丝·凯利，他们在摩纳哥结婚，显然双方都将这段婚姻视为一种商业安排。

So an example of a royal marriage with the commoner that worked very well and sort of an amusing one is Prince Rainier and Grace Kelly, where it's in Monaco, where it's clear that both of them sort of thought of it as a business arrangement basically.

他想要一位美国电影明星。

He wanted an American film star.

她非常清楚自己将要面对的是什么。

She knew exactly what she was getting into.

她认真地、长时间地考虑过这件事。

She wanted you know, she thought about it long and hard.

当时她手上有两个选择。

She basically had two offers on the table.

我认为希区柯克希望她出演《马尼》，而兰尼埃亲王则希望她统治摩纳哥。

I think Hitchcock wanted her to be in Marney, and Prince Rainier wanted her to rule Monaco.

而且，你知道，她必须决定选择哪一个，她非常理智地做出了选择，完全清楚自己将要面对的是什么。

And, you know, she had to decide which one to go for, and she went for it very hardheadedly, and she knew precisely what she was getting into.

我不确定这种情况是否真的如此，显然，戴安娜的情况就不是这样。

I I'm not sure that's true in this instance, and obviously, it wasn't true in the instance of Diana.

而这正是你提到的童话观点如此重要的原因，因为我认为，如果你被童话元素蒙蔽了双眼，而不理解这个制度冷酷而现实的本质，那么你从一开始就会陷入困境。

And that's where your fairy tale point is really important because I think if you're blinded by the fairy tale element and you don't understand the sort of cold, hard reality of the institution, then you're going to be in trouble from the very beginning.

是的。

Yeah.

但我认为，从更广泛的视角来看，你还可以将梅根和戴安娜以及以往其他平民嫁入王室的例子进行比较。

But I think also, again, looking at it in the broader suite, the the comparison that you can make between Meghan and Diana and everyone and earlier examples of commoners marrying Yeah.

英国国王的情况是，总的来说，正如你所说，国王们大多迎娶其他王室家族的人，因为人们期望他们能够理解这些规则。

English kings is that, by and large, it's exactly what you say, if by and large, kings marry other royal families, people from other royal families, because the expectation is that they will understand the rules.

而且，他们通常也来自某种被神授的背景，比如法国或其他国家。

And they are likewise generally coming from kind of anointed you know, if they're French or whatever.

但至少，他们嫁入的是因血统而统治的家族。

But at the very least, they they are marrying into families that are ruling because of their bloodline.

所以从这个意义上说，人们接受他们是平等的。

So there's a there's an acceptance that in that sense, they are equal.

但如果他们不是，就会打破这种平衡。

But if they're not, then that kind of unbalances it.

我认为即使在伊丽莎白·伍德维尔身上也能看到，爱德华四世与她的婚姻是一场爱情结合。

And I think you can see even, you know, even with Elizabeth Woodville, who Edward the fourth, it's a love match.

这引发了各种混乱。

It it creates all kinds of chaos.

而且，

And, of

当然，这会引发各种王朝纷争。

course, you know, it it that that that unleashes all kinds of dynastic feuding.

事实上，如果你觉得梅根的儿子阿奇过得够惨的话，

And in fact, you know, if if Meghan thinks that Archie's had it bad,

伊丽莎白·伍德维尔的孩子们甚至被谋杀了。

Elizabeth Woodhouse children get murdered

被他的侄子，理查德三世所害。

by by her brother-in-law, Richard the third.

所以，是的。

So Yes.

这显然是一个不太可能的前景，我认为这完全不可能。

That's surely an unlikely prospect in this I think that is an unlikely prospect.

但说到王朝纷争，哈里此举是否也涉及这方面的因素呢？

But so on the topic of dynastic feuding, there is also an element of that, isn't there, with Harry's taking this?

因为他相当于，你知道的，向他的父亲和哥哥背后捅了一刀。

Because he's kind of you know, I mean, he's kind of delivered a a dagger into the back of his father and brother.

那里有太多有趣的内容，不是吗？

There's so much interesting stuff there, isn't there?

我的意思是，无论是业余心理学家还是专业心理学家，都会对哈里和威廉的关系着迷不已。

I mean, this I mean, an amateur psychologist or indeed a professional psychologist could have an utter field day with Harry William relationship.

而且，汤姆，我们前几天只是开玩笑说这个的。

And part of it, Tom, surely we were only joking about this the other day.

这其中一部分是传统的长子与幼子之间的动态关系，不是吗？

Part of it is the time honored elder brother, younger brother dynamic, isn't it?

忠诚可靠的长子，以及是的。

The dutiful, reliable elder brother and the Yes.

过于鲁莽了

Way reckless it

就像我哥哥跑出去娶了个喜剧演员，而我却一直很正经，娶了你。

in the way my brother has kind of run off and married a comedian, whereas I've played straight and married you.

你就是神秘播客里的凯特·米德尔顿。

It's you are the Kate Middleton of mystery podcasts.

这正是我一直觉得的

That's exactly how I've always

我结婚了。

I'm married.

看待自己的方式。

Seen myself.

是那个播客界的梅根，梅根。

The Megan the Megan of, podcast.

但说到这个主题，你有没有特别喜欢的王子反抗国王父亲的例子？

But so so on that on on that theme, do you have any, particular favorite examples of, sons royal sons attacking royal fathers?

是什么？

What is it?

亨利二世，亨利二世。

Henry Henry the, Henry the second.

亨利二世，是的。

Isn't Henry the second Yes.

他和他所有的孩子关系都不好。

He's he's He goes out with all his children.

是的。

Yeah.

他们全都背叛了他，这在很大程度上是受到他母亲的怂恿。

They're all they they all turn against him in this sort of encouraged by his mother.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yes.

我的意思是，accountant（会计师）。

I mean accoutain.

我在那个故事里总是对他感到同情。

I you see, I always I always feel sorry for him in that story.

我觉得《冬狮》。

I think the lion in winter.

你看过《冬狮》吗？

Have you seen the lion in winter?

所以就是这样，是的。

So that's all Yeah.

就这些，所有这类事情。

That's all all that sort of stuff.

是那个有

Is it is that the one with

战争。

War.

蒂莫西·道尔顿。

Timothy Dalton.

战争。

War.

你脑子里就只想着这个，迪克·普兰塔热内。

That's all you ever think about, Dick Plantagenet.

那是他的。

That's his.

是的。

Yeah.

那是亨利。

That's Henry.

就是这个。

That's it.

对。

Yeah.

所以制片人发来一条信息，说《李尔王》，当然，他说得对。

So the producer is sending a text that says Lear, of course, he's quite right.

《李尔王》。

King Lear.

是的。

Yeah.

不过，这并不是历史。

Although, that's not history.

不是。

No.

不是。

No.

那是真的。

That's true.

我能告诉你我最喜欢的吗？

Can I can I tell you my favorite?

是的。

Yeah.

你显然有一个。

You've obviously got one.

那就是为什么我肯定有一些很棒的罗马题材。

That's why I There must be some fantastic Roman ones.

对。

Yeah.

最好的是维京人。

The best ones is the Vikings.

说下去。

Go on.