31. 第二帝国

你好。

Hello.

嗯，这流利的德语可能让你担心你下载了规则

Well, that burst of fluent German may well be

了这些规则

leading you to worry that you've downloaded the rules

当然。

of course.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

是的。

Yes.

我知道。

I know.

你好，欢迎来到初学者德语是我们

Hello, and welcome to beginners German is our

我们的新主题。

our new theme.

当萨莎·巴伦·科恩扮演一个叫布鲁诺的角色时，一个有点像奥地利人的角色，是的。

When when Sacha Baron Cohen played a character called Bruno, a kind of Austrian Yes.

他不是一位时尚设计师吗？

Fashion designer, wasn't he?

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Was.

对。

Yeah.

谢谢，多米尼克。

Well, thanks, Dominic.

当然，和我一起的是，我是汤姆·霍兰德。

Of course, with me is, I'm I'm Tom Holland.

和我在一起的是多米尼克·桑德布鲁克。

With me is, Dominic Sandbrook.

那为什么是德意志的诞生呢？

And, why the birth of the Deutsch?

你们可能在想。

You we may be wondering.

因为今天，我们的主题是普鲁士、德国以及一个国家的诞生，这个国家后来成为二十世纪最强大的欧洲国家。

Well, because today, our subject is Prussia, Germany, and the birth of the nation, which would become the most powerful European state of the twentieth century.

多米尼克，在我们深入之前，我觉得我们应该先明确一下范围，因为显然，普鲁士的起源，我们必须追溯到条顿骑士团。

And, Dominic, before we get into this, I think we should try and establish the parameters because, obviously, the beginnings of Prussia, you know, we've got to go back to Teutonic Knights.

对吧？

Haven't we?

我们有波罗的海沿岸的异教徒普鲁士人。

We've got, you know, the the the pagan Prussians on the shores of the Baltic.

所以，我认为我们应该从这里开始。

So that's where I think we should begin.

好吧，汤姆，我的观点是，当然你应该谈论这些事，但我认为你最好在播客结束后自己去讨论。

Well, Tom, my policy is we should, of course you should, of course, talk about those things, but I think you should talk about them probably on your own after the podcast is finished.

为了支持我的观点——即我们应该重点讨论我认为德国历史上最有趣的时期，也就是德国刚成立的时候。

And in order to bolster my case that, basically, we should talk about what I think is the most interesting period in German history, which is when Germany's just created.

所以，从大约1870年到第二次世界大战期间，我们请到了一位非常出色的嘉宾，她写了一本关于这一时期的书，名叫《血与铁》，作者是卡特娅·霍耶。

So between, let's say, 1870 and and the second world war, we have got an excellent guest who has written a book on just this period called Blood and Iron, Katja Heuer.

我们请到的是卡特娅·霍耶。

We have Katja Hoyer.

这真是太令人兴奋了。

How exciting that is.

所以，卡特娅出生在德国。

So Katja was born in Germany.

她曾在弗里德里希·席勒大学学习，她的著作《血与铁》主要讲述的是德意志帝国时期的历史。

She studied at the Friedrich Schiller University, and her book Blood and Iron is basically all about, I guess, the Kaiser's Germany.

欢迎你，卡特娅。

So welcome, Katja.

你现在定居在英国。

You're now based in Britain.

是这样吗？

Is that right?

是的。

I am.

对。

Yes.

所以我住在萨塞克斯。

So I'm in Sussex.

我已经在这里生活了大约十年，而且我还有双重国籍。

I've lived here for about ten years now, I've got dual citizenship as well.

所以我现在觉得自己真正属于这两个国家，也在这里感到非常自在。

So I feel very much part of both countries really now and feel very much at home here too.

卡什，多米尼克会非常喜欢你，因为我们之前做过一期关于第一次世界大战起因的播客，当时多米尼克极力主张英德结盟对抗法国。

Kashy, Dominic's going to love you because we actually did podcast earlier on the causes of the First World War and Dominic was reaching massively for an Anglo German alliance against the French.

我目前正在寻找这一点，所以总是如此。

I'm currently reaching for that, so Always.

我相信我们会谈到这一点的。

I'm sure that's something we'll come onto.

卡佳，你同意多米尼克的观点吗？我们认为不应该去关注异教的普鲁士人，甚至不该关注腓特烈大帝或拿破仑？

And Katya, do you agree with Dominic that we shouldn't be looking at the pagan Prussians or even Frederick the Great or Napoleon?

我们应该直接从法普战争开始，我认为这才是真正的起点。

We should be going straight into I guess really the Franco Prussian war is where we begin, is

就我而言，一切都要回到十九世纪。

Always lead back to the nineteenth century as far as I'm concerned.

好的，

Okay,

那我可以开始了吗？

well could I begin?

我们这里有一个来自本·达索的问题：普鲁士到底是什么？

We've got a question here from Ben Dassault, who asks: What the hell is Prussia?

所以我认为这是个不错的起点。

So I think that's as good a a place to start as any.

我从来找不到一个简洁易懂的解释，让我这个以美国为中心的头脑能理解。

I've never been able to find a concise, easy to understand explanation that my America centric mind can comprehend.

所以我想本是美国人，但我们在英国人中也常常对普鲁士历史一无所知。

So I guess Ben is Ben is American, but, we in England as well are often very ignorant about, Prussian history.

那你能不能直接告诉我，普鲁士到底是什么？

So can you just tell me what the hell is Prussia?

我认为在

I think in

很多方面，普鲁士的情况并不清晰，因为它的地理分布太分散了。

many ways even though that isn't clear because of its geography really.

当你看它历史上领土的分布情况时，这就是它的问题之一。

When you look at how distributed the territory was throughout its history, that's part of its problem.

普鲁士到底是什么？

What the hell is Prussia?

很可能是那些试图统治它的人提出的疑问。

Was probably asked by people that were trying to reign over it themselves.

当你观察勃兰登堡与普鲁士之间的二元性时，它们通过各种联盟、婚姻和王朝关系合并，即使仅这两个地区，也相隔数英里，中间有大片空隙，后来才在德国北部合并成一个整体，这本身就是一个问题。

When you look at either dualism between Brandenburg and Prussia, which merge via various alliances and marriages and dynasticism and other issues, even those two territories, the fact that they are miles apart from each other with huge gaps in the middle and later only merge into one big block there in the North Of Germany is in itself a problem.

当然，波罗的海地区有如此多不同的民族，后来却试图全部置于同一个政治实体之下，这确实是个难题。

Then of course you've got so many different ethnicities there in the Baltic Region, trying to later on live all under one political entity, really.

我认为，这本身就能解释为什么人们如此难以理解普鲁士。

I think that in itself explains why there are such problems in understanding Prussia.

此外，它在二十世纪消失，如今已不复存在，这也让理解变得更加困难。

And then, of course, the fact that it vanished in the twentieth century and is now an entity that doesn't exist anymore makes it more difficult as well.

简而言之，它起源于波罗的海地区，也就是如今波兰北部，而它合并的勃兰登堡地区则位于如今的德国北部。

So in a nutshell, it's an area in the Baltic Region, in what is now the North Of Poland, where it originated, and the area in Brandenburg that it merged with is in what is now Northern Germany.

从地理上讲，这就是我们所指的区域。

Geographically that's where we're located.

这个名字源自最初的普鲁士人

The name comes from the original Prussian people that

你想

you want to

去那里。

go there.

或者像德语中所称的波森人，他们后来在条顿骑士团从十字军东征归来后，经历了极其残酷血腥的征服；当时波兰国王请求他们帮忙对付自己北部领地中难以控制的这些人，正是从那时起，这个名称被保留了下来。当然，后来定居于此的日耳曼人与最初的普鲁士人并非同一族群，但地理名称却沿用了下来。

Or the sort of Posen people as they're called in German, who were then sort of in quite horrific and bloody conquests, sort of conquered by the Teutonic knights as they came back from Crusade and the Polish king asked them for help to deal with these people in his northern realm that he was sort of struggling with and that's sort of where the name stuck although of course the Germanic people that then settled there weren't the same as the original Prussians, if you will, but the geographical name stuck.

然后，正如我之前所说，通过各种婚姻联盟、继承和征服，这些领土逐渐在北部地区越来越紧密地连成一片。

Then via various different, as I was saying earlier, marriage alliances, inheritances, conquests and so on, territory slowly merged closer and closer together than the North.

我认为，当1701年普鲁士正式成为王国时，这一切才真正融合在一起；但即便如此，你仍可以说腓特烈大帝仍担忧整个地区人口分布过于分散，缺乏真正的凝聚力。

And the first Prussian, I suppose once it becomes a kingdom in 1701 you can really see it all merge together, but even then you could argue that Frederick the Great was still concerned about how spread out people were in the entire region and that there wasn't really any sense of cohesion.

因此，他甚至主导了一项德意志移民计划，试图通过激励措施吸引人们迁居此地，以建立一个人口密集、以德意志人为主的区域来加以统治。

So even he led a German settlement programme there where he was trying to incentivise people to move there and so on, to try and have a densely populated, German populated area there to reign over.

因此，这个问题在很多方面都是合理的，因为普鲁士并非一个语言、外貌、文化完全统一的同质整体，而是一个由多种不同实体组成的、相当混乱的拼凑体，直到最终才融合在一起。

So that question is very justified in many ways because it isn't one homogenous, nice block where people speak the same language, look and talk the same, are the same, but it's quite a messy block of different kind of entities before it all gets merged together.

凯娅，这引出了一个稍有不同的问题。

And Katya, that raises a slightly different question.

我的意思是，如果我们是在1850年做这个播客，我们的听众会很清楚普鲁士是什么，以及普鲁士的历史等等。

I mean, if we were doing this podcast in 1850, our listeners would have known, kind of had a sense of what Prussia was and Prussian history and all the rest of it.

但显然，后来普鲁士被并入了塑造所谓德国的核心力量，而我们现在对这个德国非常熟悉。

But, obviously, Prussia then was subsumed within what was the key actor in in creating something called Germany, which we're now very familiar with.

你的书实际上是从1871年德国的建立开始的。

One of the things that your book so your book starts with basically the creation of Germany in eighteen seventy, seventy one.

其中一个一直困扰我的问题是，或者说贯穿你整本书的一个潜在问题是：德国在多大程度上是一个人为创造的产物。

And one of the the questions that kinda nags at me, and and is there kind of underlying your whole book, it to the extent to which Germany was basically an artificial creation.

比如，存在着英格兰。

So that there was, you know, there was an England.

法国也显然是一个明确存在的国家。

There was clearly a France.

但你认为德国在多大程度上是真实存在的？

But how much do you think Germany was real in?

又有多少是俾斯麦和第一位皇帝想象和建构出来的？

And and how much was it imagined and and invented by Bismarck and the and the first Kaiser?

我认为这个问题可以拆分成几个部分。

Well, I think the the question is sort of split into fragments.

如果你问一个十九世纪自由派或民主思想的人，德国是否真实存在，对他们来说，德国是真实的。

If you ask a liberal or democratic minded person in the nineteenth century whether Germany is real, to them it was.

我认为，自解放战争反对拿破仑以来，德语地区被视为一个整体，与法国人或英国人形成对比，这种观念确实存在，尤其是在德语地区的自由派群体中。

I would say certainly since the Liberation Wars against Napoleon, this idea that the German lands were kind of one entity and then you've got it contrasted against, say, the French people or the English people, that idea was there, certainly amongst the liberal elements in the German speaking lands.

总有一句话说：凡有德语之处，就应有德国。

There's always this phrase, as far as the German tongue is heard, there should be a Germany.

因此，我认为人们感受到语言上的相似性，觉得他们是同一民族，理应属于同一个国家。

So there was a sense, I think, linguistic similarities that people felt they were the same people and ought to be in the same state.

与此相对的是，那些希望维持各个德意志邦国独立的人。

And then contrasted to that, you've got all of the people who have an interest in keeping the separate German states.

比如俾斯麦本人，他实际上非常认同自己是普鲁士人、巴伐利亚人、莱茵兰人、汉堡人——我总忍不住笑‘汉堡人’这个说法，但不管怎样。

So people like Bismarck himself, actually, who were very much kind of minded that they were Prussians, Bavarians, Rhinelanders, hamburgers, whatever you- I always laugh at the hamburger thing, but never mind.

这些人都有各自的利益，希望保持自己的政治权力、王国和公国完整，当然并不真正感受到所谓的‘德意志性’。

So there's all of these different people who had a vested interest in keeping their own political power and their kingdoms and their duchies intact, and certainly didn't feel a sense of kind of Germanness, as it were.

所以我认为，在整个十九世纪，随着德语地区与其他民族发生更多冲突，德国的概念变得越来越真实，我认为这最终定义了德国——它通过与他者对比而确立自身。

So throughout the nineteenth century I would say it becomes more real as there are more conflicts of the German speaking lands where they are kind of in one pot against somebody else and I think that's what defines in the end Germany, is that it contrasts itself against other peoples.

卡西迪，也许德国不像英格兰或法国那样形成统一国家的原因，是因为这些大大小小的德意志邦国、主教区等等，几个世纪以来都是神圣罗马帝国的一部分。

Could Cassidy presumably the reason why there isn't a sense of a German state in the way that you have England or France is because all these various German states, principalities, bishoprics, whatever, for centuries and centuries are part of the Holy Roman Empire.

而拿破仑后来废除了神圣罗马帝国。

And that then gets abolished by Napoleon.

即使拿破仑被击败了，这个帝国也没有被恢复。

And even though Napoleon is defeated, it doesn't get reanimated.

那么，在神圣罗马帝国终结和德意志帝国兴起之间，人们是否在寻找一种重新建立统一认同的方式呢？

And and so is there a sense between the ending of the Holy Roman Empire and the emergence of what becomes the German Empire that in a sense people are looking around for a way to re establish a sense of unity?

还是说，大多数邦国此时已经满足于保持独立状态？

Or are most of the states happy now to basically be independent?

我认为这有点是因为后来出现的德意志帝国——也就是所谓的第二帝国——它试图在神圣罗马帝国和自身之间建立某种连续性。

I think it's slightly because the German Empire that emerges, the Second Reich, if you will, and it's called Second Reich because it's trying to create some sort of, I suppose, a sense of continuity between the Holy Roman Empire and that.

但它更加统一，因为它真正成为一个拥有中央政府的民族国家。

But it's much more unified in that it actually becomes a nation state with a centralized government.

当你看神圣罗马帝国皇帝时，会发现他每次想要发动战争都必须几乎逐个协商，人们真的会支持他、与他站在一起吗？

So when you look at the Holy Roman Emperor and the way that he had to almost haggle every time he wants to go to war, will people actually join him, will they actually be with him?

因为当时人们并不觉得普鲁士的人与巴伐利亚的人属于同一个体系或单位，他们的利益常常完全背道而驰。

Because there wasn't a sense that people, say, in Prussia were necessarily directly in the same construct or unit as people say Bavaria were and their interests quite often diverge completely.

但从1871年起，人们逐渐有了同属一个国家、需要团结一致的意识，正如我在书中所试图表达的，这种意识还通过持续不断的冲突被不断强化——这些冲突几乎是人为制造的，目的是为了把德国人凝聚在一起。

Whilst I think from 1871 there is more of a sense of they are now in one state and need to pull together and I think that's of course, as I was trying say in my book as well, that's of course perpetuated with this constant conflict that people are trying to create almost artificially to try and keep the Germans together.

但我认为神圣罗马帝国并没有达到这种程度，它更像一个松散的集合体；而1871年则真正创造出了字面意义上的民族国家认同。

But I don't think the Holy Roman Empire had that to the same extent, I think that was more of a loose kind of conglomerate whilst 1871 actually creates a nation sense in the actual sense of the word.

不过在你的书中，这个时刻是这样的：你基本上描述了第二帝国是如何通过战争建立起来的。

In your book though, that moment is so you basically describe how the Second Reich is created through war.

你提到了三场战争。

Then you have three wars.

他们与丹麦人作战，与说德语的奥地利人作战——但奥地利人最终被排除在新德国的构建之外，然后是法国人。

They fight the Danes, the Austrians, who are German speaking, but are basically shut out of the the new German creation, and then the French.

你的书名《血与铁》源自俾斯麦，但显然也蕴含着一种强烈的观念：这整个过程本质上是一场高度军事化的工程，军队至关重要，而与他者对抗的意识也贯穿始终。

And you sort of I mean, the title Blood and Iron is a sort of it's from Bismarck, but it's obviously, you know, imbued with this sort of sense that it's all a very militaristic project and and the army is crucial and a sense of fighting other people and all the rest of it.

你认为这是否意味着你认同所谓的‘特殊道路’理论，即德国走了一条与众不同的独特道路，从而解释了它在二十世纪所发生的一切？

Do you think that makes I don't know how how I don't think you do kind of sign up to the Sonderweg idea, which is that basically German Germany had this weird special path that explains what happened to it in the twentieth century.

但你是否认为德国的起源更加血腥、更具军国主义色彩，其国家本质确实与战斗息息相关，而其他欧洲国家则并非如此？

But do you think Germany's beginnings were more bloody, more militaristic, and that the essence of the nation was, you know, to do with fighting in a way that it wasn't of other European nations?

我当然不认同整个‘特殊道路’理论，因为我觉得它过于决定论了，那种认为德国从一开始就注定失败的观点，正是我在书中试图反驳或质疑的。

I certainly don't subscribe to the whole Sanderwig theory in the sense that, you know, I find it slightly too deterministic for my own liking, that this idea that it was failed from the start, I think that's something I try to con- sort of contrast in the book or kind of question in the book.

但我确实认为，1871年建立的这个国家的根本问题在于，它建立在‘血与铁’之上，正如俾斯麦所说的那样。

But I do think the inherent problem in this 1871 creation is indeed that it's based- at that moment it's based on blood and iron, I think as Bismak was saying it was.

我认为他非常敏锐，清楚地意识到这正是问题所在。

I think he was completely- he's a very observant man and I think realized that that was the problem with it.

事实上，即使到1868年，他仍然说，他认为在这个世纪内建立一个德意志国家是不可能的。

He himself actually, even still as late as 1868, he still said he doesn't think creation of a German state is possible within this century.

就在他实际完成这一目标的三年前，他还说，这还需要再花三十年才能实现。

He was still saying three years before he did it, you know, it's going to take another three decades to do it.

这足以说明一切。

And that tells you everything you need to know.

我认为在那个时刻，这是一种被迫的方式，因为你不可能让南方各州，特别是巴伐利亚和巴登加入进来，因为它们在政治、宗教以及你所能想到的各个方面，都与俾斯麦所建立的北德集团截然不同。

I think in that moment it's a forced way of doing it because you wouldn't have been able to get, say, the southern states in particular, Bavaria and Baden on board because they were politically, religiously and everywhere you want to look at it completely different from this northern German block that Bismarck had created.

虽然我知道德国有一些人会说，我们也不愿意成为普鲁士人，但我认为，在这个北德集团内部，由于文化原因，实现统一相对更容易，而像巴登那些非常自由派的人，或巴伐利亚那些极度天主教徒，则难以融入。

Whilst I know there are various people in Germany who will sit there and say we didn't want to be Prussian either, but I think in this kind of northern block I think it was easier to achieve for cultural reasons than, say, getting the very liberal people in Baden on-site or the very arch Catholic people in Bavaria.

所以，当时只能依靠武力征服，我认为是这样。

So it took conquest at that point, I think.

卡佳，如果反过来想，你难道不能说，德国的形成并非因为它是士兵的土地，而是因为它是哲学家的土地吗？

Katya, just to turn that on its head, could you not also argue that in a way, Germany kind of wills itself into being, not because it's a land of soldiers, but because it's a land of philosophers.

民族主义的幻想，那种与康德相关的理想主义——在腓特烈大帝之后，俾斯麦之前最著名的普鲁士人——还有格林兄弟，那种认为身份深植于森林与土壤之中的观念，也是德国自我建构的重要部分，不是吗？

Dream of nationalism, the idealism that you'd associate with Kant, probably after Frederick the Great, the most famous Prussian before Bismarck, And the Brothers Grimm, the idea that the identity that is deep in the forest and the soil and everything, that's also a very important part of how Germany imagines itself into being, isn't it?

还是我理解错了？

Or have I got that wrong?

是的，我完全同意。

No, completely agree.

这正是我之前试图描述的自由派与精英阶层之间的那种二元性。

Think that's exactly that dualism that I was trying to describe earlier between the sort of liberal elements and the elites.

我认为，当你把士兵和哲学家对立起来时，情况完全一样。

I think it's exactly the same if you contrast the soldiers and the philosophers with each other.

当然，像黑格尔、阿尔恩特、康德这样的人，正如你提到的，他们有着悠久的德国传统，以某种特定方式思考，尤其是在政治和哲学思想方面。

So there are of course people like Hegel, Arndt, Kant, as you mentioned, where there's a long German tradition really of thinking in a particular way, or political thought and philosophical thought in that sense.

比如黑格尔这样的人，当时积极主张德国统一，也是统一力量的一部分。

People like Hegel, for instance, were actively pushing to have Germany unified as well and were part of the unifying forces.

但我认为，如果没有中产阶级的参与，他们出于经济原因渴望统一，并同时接受这些哲学理念，与他们的经济利益相结合，情况就不会如此。

But I think without then the middle classes joining in with that, because they wanted unification for economic reasons, really, and were then buying into all of those philosophical ideas, you know, alongside their economic interests, really.

你会逐渐产生一种感觉：必须发生些什么，必须有人来实现德国的统一。

You get a kind of growing sense of something needs to happen, something needs to or somebody needs to basically join Germany.

我认为，德国之所以在1871年实现统一，原因在于‘铁血’和俾斯麦的武力征服。

I think the fact that it happened or the reason why it happened then when it happened in 1871 was down to Blood And Isle and Bismark and the conquest.

我认为，即使没有当时的情况，德国最终也还是会统一，只是方式可能不同，正如俾斯麦所说，可能会推迟三、四十年，而不是在那个特定时刻发生。

I think eventually it would have happened in any case and probably in a different way, but as Bismark says, probably thirty-forty years on rather than at that particular point in time.

经常收听这个播客的听众不会感到惊讶。

Regular listeners to this podcast will not be surprised.

汤姆问到了哲学家的问题。

Tom asks about philosophers.

我想问个问题，关于……我不知道，水管工。

I want ask a question about, I don't know, plumbers.

那你什么时候问到我了？

So at what point do You asked about me.

就多米尼克。

Just Dominic.

我问了。

I did.

我问了。

I did.

这大概就是我的思维方式。

Sort of way my that's the way my mind works.

那么普通男女是在什么时候开始把自己视为德国人的？

So at what point does the sort of common man and woman at what point do they start thinking of themselves as Germans?

我问这个问题的另一个原因是，我最近读了很多关于第一次世界大战的资料，令人震惊的是，当时在圣诞节停战之类的时候，人们会与英国人互动。

And the re one reason I ask is because I recently been reading a lot of stuff about the First World War, and it's it's really striking there how, you know, when when there's sort of Christmas truces or whatever and people are they're fraternizing with the British.

来自巴登之类地方的人会说，我们真的很友善，和你们一模一样，但普鲁士人完全是怪物。

They'll sort of people from Baden or something will say, oh, we're really nice, and we're just like you, but the Prussians are complete monsters.

显然存在着巨大的分歧，他们有时会先把自己视为某个邦国的居民，而不是国家的公民，但他们的邦国身份对他们来说至关重要。

And they sort of they there's clear there are big divisions, and they think of themselves, you know, sometimes state first country, but maybe not country second, but they their state identity is really important to them.

这些变化究竟是在什么时候发生的？

At what point did did those things cross over?

德国人是什么时候开始首先把自己视为德国人，而把符腾堡人、巴伐利亚人或普鲁士人身份放在其次的呢？如果有的话。

So at what point did Germans think of themselves as Germans first and Wurttembergers or or Bavarians or Prussians second, if at all?

是的，我认为这要从拿破仑战争时期开始。

Yeah, I would say it started once again with Napoleonic Wars.

当你看到腓特烈·威廉三世首先号召所有普鲁士人，然后号召所有德国人加入他，并且这一号召真的奏效了，接着像如今被称为‘民族会战’的莱比锡战役这样的时刻，就让人感受到这几乎是一场全国性的努力，尽管当然奥地利人和其他所谓的‘民族’也参与了进来。

So when you look at, you know, when Frederick Willem III comes out and actually calls first on all Prussians and then on all Germans to join him, and this actually works, And then you've got really kind of unifying moments like what is now called the Battle of the Nations, like the Battle of Leipzig, where there is a sense that this is a national effort almost, even though, of course, the Austrians and other sort of nations, if you will, joined in with that as well.

但人们开始有一种感觉：如果德国人团结起来，就能做到这一点，甚至能把像拿破仑这样强大的敌人赶出去。

But there is a sense that if Germans fight together, can do this, they can even drive somebody, you know, like the mighty Napoleon out.

所以，卡佳，从某种意义上说，拿破仑恰恰是这种矛盾的化身，他是真正的奠基人。

So Katja, in a way, paradox isn't Napoleon in a sense, it's the godfather of Absolutely.

这确实是历史上一个非常重要的时刻，拿破仑在其中扮演了关键角色。

And that is one of the great, you know, sort of really moments when was Napoleon in Explain of big the history.

是的，确实如此。

Yeah, indeed.

当你想到神圣罗马帝国曾经有超过400个小邦国，而拿破仑将它们统一为39个州——这些州在1815年维也纳会议后仍然存在时，这种统一就已经开始了。

Well, started already when you think that there were over 400 little states in the Holy Roman Empire and Napoleon unified them into the 39 states that were then still left after the Congress of Vienna in 1815.

因此，在很多方面，他确实是一个强大的统一推手。

So in many ways he is a great lever of unification, if you will.

另一点是，这支军队在很大程度上主要是志愿兵，比如著名的吕佐夫志愿军，他们为德国确立了红金相间的制服颜色等象征。

The other thing is because this was largely certainly to large elements, volunteer force, so you've got the famous Lutzer volunteers who then gave Germany the colours, the red and gold colours on their uniforms, that kind of stuff.

正因为这是人民自发参战，而非国家强制征召，当时出现了大量志愿活动——甚至妇女、儿童和平民都积极参与，捐赠金属和其他物资。

So the fact that this is like the people fighting rather than the state telling them they have to, they volunteered, there's lots of- even at that point women, children, civilians start joining by huge volunteer campaigns and donating metal and all that kind of stuff.

因此，我认为在19世纪初，德国人开始感受到：如果他们团结一致，共同对抗语言、文化上截然不同的外敌，就会产生一种强烈的共同体意识。

So I think Germans began to feel at the beginning of the nineteenth century that if they rally together, if they pool together against somebody distinctly foreign by their language, by their culture and so on, that there is a sense of unity.

你在1840年法国恐慌中又看到了这一点，当时法国国王路易·菲利普以为通过耀武扬威就能解决自己的内部问题，他还在莱茵河沿岸多个地区挑起领土争端。

You see that again in the 1840 French scare when the French King Louis Philippe thought he was going to sort his own internal problems out by doing a bit of sabre rattling and he was disputing various territories along the River Rhine and so on.

突然间，整个德国各地都爆发了示威活动，这或许能回答你，多米尼克，关于普通民众的问题。

And sudden you get demonstrations all over Germany and that answers perhaps your question, Dominik, about ordinary people.

这并非由国家发起，1840年时，普通民众在巴登、巴伐利亚，乃至整个德国各地走上街头，高呼这是我们的莱茵河，而‘莱茵河守望者’这类神话也正是从那时开始浮现。

This wasn't instigated by the state, there were ordinary people in 1840 going out in Baden, in Bayern, everywhere, basically all over Germany going out on streets saying this is our River Rhine, and this kind of myth of the watch on the Rhine and all that is beginning to emerge then.

作为一种德国概念，如今巴伐利亚人也开始关心莱茵河地区发生的事，这表明他们对那里的人们产生了一种归属感，尽管从传统和历史角度看，他们并不属于同一片领土。

As a kind of German concept, there are now Bavarians somehow worried about what's going on at the River Rhine, which gives you some sort of idea that they feel a sense of connection to the people that live there even though they're not, traditionally speaking, historically speaking, in the same territory.

因此，我认为正是这些冲突时刻——再次回到同一个观点——让普通民众走上街头，与中产阶级和自由派等社会阶层站在一起，而这些阶层从思想层面早已倡导过这种团结。

So I think it's those moments of conflict, again, going back to the same idea, that brings ordinary people out and kind of gets them on-site with the middle classes and liberals and those kind of social classes that have, from an intellectual point, argued for.

我可以问个问题吗？抱歉，汤姆，我知道我又插话了。

Can I ask a question- sorry Tom, I know I'm jumping in again?

不过，我想问一下，那些不属于德国、但属于德语区的地区，比如奥地利，该怎么看？

Can I ask a question, though, about a bit of Germany or a bit of German speaking Europe that doesn't fit in, which is Austria?

显然，为了建立德国，他们曾与奥地利作战。

So, obviously, they fight against the Austrians in order to set up Germany.

但奥地利却有着一种奇特的地位，我的意思是，如果你允许我这么说的话，有史以来最著名的德国人其实是奥地利人。

But Austria has this weird place because, I mean, if you'll forgive me for saying, the single best known German of all time was Austrian.

而最伟大的、至少是说话最响亮、最激烈地谈论德国统一和德意志性的那个人，也是一位奥地利人。

And the single greatest, you know, the man who talked a little more loudly anyway and more stridently about German unity and and Germanness was an Austrian.

这一直让我感到困惑：希特勒肯定带着口音，他肯定在某些德国人眼中显得像个外人吧？

And it's that's always kind of puzzled me that sort of Hitler must have had an accent, and he must have seemed to some Germans surely like an outsider or not.

我的意思是，奥地利在德国人的想象中究竟处于什么位置？

I mean, where does what do how does Austria fit into the kind of German imagination?

关于希特勒这一点，简单说几句。

Just briefly on the Hitler thing.

似乎所有的讨论最终都会回到他身上。

Again, it seems all discussions lead back to him.

但他对此非常清楚，甚至刻意训练自己发出一种极其夸张的巴伐利亚口音。

But he was acutely aware of that and actually trained himself to have a quite over the top Bavarian accent.

所以你听到的那些演讲中、电视和纪录片里常见的那种非常生硬的口音，其实是巴伐利亚口音，而他特意去学习并确保自己听起来像‘纯正的德国人’，而不是‘奥地利德语’。

So that kind of really harsh accent that you hear in those speeches and things that you see, you know, mostly now on TV and in documentaries and stuff, that's a Bavarian accent and he's deliberately gone out of his way to try and acquire that, you know, and make sure that he sounds German German rather than Austrian German.

所以关于这一点，也许这就是其中一个方面。

So that's one thing maybe on that one.

他对此事实有着非常明确的意识。

He was quite, you know, quite consciously aware of that fact.

然后奥地利是个特例，因为历史上他们一直身处奥匈帝国，从某种意义上说，一只脚踏在东方；从德国统一的角度来看，只要德语区存在，奥地利的德语部分或许最终能像希特勒在德奥合并时那样融入德国。

Then Austria is a weird one because they've always got, you know, with the Austro Hungarian Empire, they've always got one foot in the East in that sense, and from a German unification point of view, and with this whole, like, as far as the German tongue is heard, you could have maybe had the German speaking part of Austria eventually join that in the way that Hitler did as well with the Anschluss.

但他们绝不会放弃另一侧——东欧那片拥有众多民族、语言和文化的地区，我认为这使得以‘德意志性’为基础的德国统一理念在某种程度上难以被接受。

But the fact that they would have never given up the other side, the Eastern European side, with the multitude of different peoples and languages and cultures in that, I think would have made this kind of intellectual Germanness thing that underpinned German unification to some extent, I think difficult to sell.

当然，从现实政治的角度来看，除非建立一个横跨中欧的庞大德意志帝国，否则这将非常困难，而这样的帝国又会囊括数百万非德裔、非德语人口。

Certainly in terms of real political terms, I think it would have been difficult unless you create a mahusive German Empire in the centre of Europe, which again, you know, would have encompassed a lot of millions of non German ethnically and linguistically non German people.

我认为这就是其中的难点之一。

I think that's part of what made it so difficult.

当然，奥地利与普鲁士之间的二元对立，在一个统一的德意志国家内也无法解决。

Then of course the dualism between Austria and Prussia wouldn't have been solved within a German unit.

还有太多话题值得讨论。

Well, so much still to talk about.

我认为我们应该在这里休息一下，但回来后我们还有很多问题要讨论，还有更多普鲁士历史等着探索。

I think we should take a break here, but when we come back we've got lots of questions and lots more Prussian history to explore.

你好。

Hello.

欢迎回到《历史的其余部分》。

Welcome back to, The Rest is History.

我们正在谈论普鲁士、德国的兴起，以及诸如此类的话题。

We're talking Prussia, emergence of Germany, all such things like that.

卡蒂亚，我们刚才在讨论奥地利和德国。

Katya, we were talking about Austria and Germany.

我能不能问你一个问题，关于普鲁士这个国家，它比莱茵河沿岸许多城市要晚得多，而那些城市往往可以追溯到罗马时代？

Could I just ask you a question about Prussia as a state that is kind of more recent than many of the cities that line the Rhine that often go back to the kind of Roman times?

这些城市一定有一种悠久历史的意识，或许还有文化优越感，而把普鲁士视为暴发户。

Those cities must have a sense of their antiquity, perhaps of their cultural superiority, and a sense of Prussia as a parvenu.

这在十九世纪的德国人中是个问题吗？

Is that an issue for Germans in the nineteenth century?

他们是否有一种感觉，就像法国人和英国人那样，认为普鲁士人是暴发户？

The sense that Do they feel perhaps rather as the French and the British do that the Prussians are kind of upstarts?

我认为在某种程度上是这样的。

I think so to some extent.

俾斯麦本人就用过这个比喻，我想我在书里也提到过，如果我没删掉的话——没删，我觉得还在书里。

Bismarck himself uses this metaphor, I think I talk about that in the book as well if I haven't cut it out, no I think it's in there.

他把普鲁士比作一艘现代护卫舰，与那艘缓慢、宏伟、庞大却即将沉没的奥地利老船作对比。

He calls the Prussian ship a modern frigate and compares it to the old Austrian ship that's much slower, grander, bigger, but also about to sink.

因此，在很多方面，人们认为普鲁士是一个精干、现代、工业化的实体，而其他列强则陈旧且正在崩溃。

And so in many ways, there's this idea that Prussia is a trim, modern, industrialised entity whilst the other powers are old and crumbling.

我认为他们故意利用这种缺乏古老历史的特点，因为这与工业化、军事化以及所有这些事物都契合，不是吗？

I think they deliberately make use of that lack of ancient history in that sense because it fits in, doesn't it, with industrialisation, with the military and with all of those things?

我说得对。

I'm right.

基本上，英国是第一个工业化国家，但在整个十九世纪，英国人似乎一直在担心德国正在大幅超越他们，大概是因为德国确实做到了。

Basically, Britain is the first industrial nation, but over the nineteenth century, the British seem to spend all their time worrying that actually Germany is massively overtaking them, presumably because Germany is.

德国是欧洲工业最发达的国家。

Germany is by far the most industrially sophisticated country in Europe.

令人担忧的不仅是追赶的速度，还有他们超越英国的迅猛程度。

It's the speed of the catch up as well that worries everyone.

当你看到他们如何迅速在钢铁生产等方面超越英国时，情况就更明显了——而英国本身并不天然拥有太多这类资源，还有煤炭等等，所有这些工业、军事、经济所必需的要素，正是这些让人们感到忧虑。

When you look at just how quickly they overtake Britain and things like steel production, obviously, which Britain hasn't naturally got all that much of, All of these kind of- and coal and things like that- so all of the elements really that you need for industry and for the military as well, for the economy and so on, it's that that worries people.

因此到1914年，德国几乎在短短几十年内从无到有，建成了世界第二大海军。

So by 1914, pretty much, you've got the second largest navy, for instance, in the world out nothing within just a few decades.

人们都在观察这种情况，心想：再给它十年到二十年，看看会发展到什么地步。

People were looking at that wondering, give it another ten-twenty years and see where that's going.

所以，是的，我认为这确实是一个很大的担忧。

So yes, I think that's very much a concern.

这实际上可以追溯到拿破仑战争时期，1815年莱茵兰被划归普鲁士。

Basically goes once back to the Napoleonic Wars when the Rhineland was given to Prussia in 1815.

我不知道为什么，但似乎没人对此太在意。

And I don't know why, but nobody seems to have thought much of it.

奥地利人确实完全低估了这一点。

The Austrians certainly completely underestimated that.

他们以为，太好了，终于不用再操心那些烦人的比利时人了，这问题一直让哈布斯堡家族头疼，他们总是得派兵去镇压，于是他们想，让普鲁士去管吧，没问题，把莱茵兰给他们，结果突然间，他们获得了那里的所有煤炭、铁矿和其他资源，最终成了工业超级大国。

They thought, oh good, we got rid of that problem of having to look after the pesky Belgians', which you know, had been annoying the Habsburg for ages and they always needed to send troops up there to keep them at bay and they were kind of thinking, oh, let Prussia do that, that's fine, and give them the Rhineland and all of a sudden, you know, they get all the coal, iron ore and everything else there and end up being an industrial superpower.

尼古拉斯·沃尔顿就这个主题提出了一个问题：普鲁士对西德的影响以及随后二十世纪的灾难，是否都该归咎于英国在拿破仑战争后的安排？

We have a question on that very theme from Nicholas Walton, who asks, Was Prussia's influence over Western Germany and the subsequent twentieth century misadventures all Britain's fault for its post Napoleonic settlement?

多米尼克对这个问题摇头表示不同意。

Dominic's shaking his head at that.

是的，这总是英国的错，对吧？

Yeah, that's always Britain's fault, isn't it?

约翰，收到。

John, got you.

是的，我同意，这确实如此。

Yeah, I'd agree with that, so it most definitely is.

我的意思是，你得把这放在拿破仑刚刚迅速征服整个欧洲的背景下来看。

I mean, was quite- I mean, you you've got to put that into context of Napoleon just having, you know, literally gone over the entire continent and conquered it in no time.

当时确实有一种感觉，欧洲的力量平衡需要得到恢复。

There was certainly a sense that the balance of power in Europe needed to be restored.

然后你看看奥地利，它实际上根本没有改变。

And then you look at Austria and Austria hasn't actually changed.

人们坐在那里纳闷，既然当时奥地利的状态如此，为何没能挡住拿破仑。

Basically, people sat there wondering why you couldn't keep Napoleon at bay in the state that you were in then.

现在有什么不同了？

What's changed now?

如果法国再次这么做，会发生什么？

What's going to happen if the French do it again?

因此，人们感到普鲁士如今已成为欧洲大陆上一个合法、可信且可靠的盟友。

And so there was a sense that Prussia had now emerged as a valid, trustworthy, reliable ally on the continent.

请记住，他们当时也站在同一阵营，根本没有理由怀疑普鲁士会在整整一个世纪后引发后来的灾难。

Bear in mind that they fought on the same side as well, there was no reason whatsoever to suspect the Prussians of the later catastrophes that would eventually ensue literally a century later.

所以，把这一切都归咎于英国，似乎有点奇怪。

So to sit there and go, oh, this is all Britain's fault seems a bit odd.

因此，欧洲各方都对大陆上存在另一股强大的稳定力量以制衡法国权力这一想法感到认同。

So the idea that there was another strong stabilising force on the continent to counterbalance French power was appealing to all sides really in Europe.

关于这一点和普鲁士，有很多问题，而这些问题背后很大程度上笼罩着第一次世界大战的阴影。

There are lots of questions about this and about Prussia, and basically hanging over a lot of these questions is World War one.

例如，有个人叫法老曼说，普鲁士军国主义是一个陈词滥调。

So for example, somebody called Pharaoh Man says Prussian militarism is a well worn cliche.

显然，在20世纪10年代，这曾是英国报纸上的一个常见说法。

So obviously, was a huge British newspaper cliche in in the nineteen tens.

他说，作为一个社会，普鲁士真的那么军国主义吗？

As a society, he says, was Prussia really that militaristic?

它在哪些方面与其他国家的军国主义完全不同？

And was it militaristic in ways that were completely different from other countries?

为了进一步回应他的问题，我认为在1914年，法国的现役军人比例实际上高于德国。

And just to sort of follow-up on his question, I think France proportionately had more men under arms in 1914 than Germany did.

我认为，法国比德国更明显地具有军国主义特征，尽管我们如今并不这样记得。

France was a more obviously militaristic country, I would argue, than Germany was, even though we don't really remember it that way.

但不管怎样，卡佳，你会有自己的答案。

But anyway, Katya, you'll have your own answer.

我觉得你实际上可能会不同意我的看法。

I think you may disagree with me, actually.

你觉得普鲁士非常尚武，对吧？

You think it was very militaristic, don't you?

相当尚武。

Fairly.

我认为问题在于，这在文化上是略有不同的事情，而这又源于拿破仑战争时期的陆上民兵和志愿部队。

I think the problem is that it's culturally a slightly different thing and again that stems from those landware and volunteer units in the Napoleonic Wars.

所以，一旦你国家的相当一部分人口实际上像民兵一样，这种军事化就会以更根深蒂固的方式渗透到社会中，我认为是这样。

So the moment you have a significant proportion of your country as effectively like a militia force, it seeps into society in a much more deep seated way, I think.

我认为这正是普鲁士的问题所在：它位于欧洲中心，历史上始终对周边强国完全缺乏防御能力，因此人们始终强烈意识到必须保卫国家，否则就会遭遇像拿破仑战争这样的灾难，甚至更早之前还有三十年战争，彻底摧毁了整个国家。

And that I think is part of Prussia's problem, that where it's located in the centre of Europe and where it's completely vulnerable throughout its history to the surrounding powers, there has always been a huge sense of the people need to defend this or else, you know, they had the experience of things like well, obviously the Napoleonic Wars but also before that you get the Thirty Years' War, for example, completely ravaging the country.

所以我认为，在普鲁士，人们需要成为士兵的观念在心理上比在其他国家更加根深蒂固。

So I think the sense of people need to be soldiers is much, much more deep seated psychologically in Prussia than it is in other countries necessarily.

而在法国，当然有着悠久而卓越的军事传统，但这种传统并不像在普鲁士那样深深融入社会。

Where in France, of course, you've a long standing and fine military tradition but it's not necessarily part of society in the same way I think that it is in Prussia.

话虽如此，普鲁士另一方面也是一个极为自由和宽容的国家，这一点常常被遗忘，我也想在书中强调这一点：其宗教宽容程度在欧洲几乎无出其右，这始于其境内新教与天主教并存的现实，必须妥善处理两者关系。

Having said that, Prussia is also, on the other hand, an extremely liberal and tolerant state and that's often forgotten and this is something I wanted to raise with the book as well, is that you get religious tolerance to a degree that you hardly see anywhere else in Europe, obviously starting with the or you could argue basically it's constantly in that state because it has got Protestant and Catholic elements within its realm and needs to deal with that.

你看到腓特烈大帝，甚至他的父亲，都展现出极大的宗教宽容，这促进了文化的繁荣。

You you get Frederick the Great, obviously, even his father as well, there's huge religious tolerance there that leads to a flourishing of culture.

你还会看到大量法国新教徒，即胡格诺派难民从法国逃亡，其中许多人前往英国，主要是知识分子、手工业者等，他们带来了自己的文化。

You get this whole, you know, refugee movement from France with French Protestants, with the Huguenots fleeing and masses of them coming to Britain and again largely intellectuals and trades people and people like that bringing their own culture with them.

我认为普鲁士也是一个非常注重文化、知识和哲学的国家，这一点常常被忽视，但这并不削弱军事在其角色中的重要性。

I think the fact that Prussia is also a very cultural, very intellectual, very philosophical state is often overlooked, but I don't think that necessarily takes away from the role that the military plays.

19世纪的普鲁士国王们，实际上每一位都极为关注军队中的民兵与志愿部队这一元素。

The Prussian king, or all of the Prussian kings really themselves in the nineteenth century, are hugely concerned about that, about this element of landfare units and militia element basically within the armed forces.

在每个时期，志愿部队都占普鲁士军队的10%到20%左右。

At each point it makes up something between 1020%, I think, of the Prussian forces are always volunteer forces.

他们极其自由主义，高度认同自己的德意志身份，忠诚于他们所理解的祖国。

And they're mega liberal, mega conscious of their Germanness, their loyalty to what they see as the fatherland, I.

呃。

E.

某种德国的建构，而非普鲁士。

Some construct of Germany and not Prussia.

而这正是他们所担忧的。

And that's kind of something that they worry about.

布雷斯劳实际上指出，在军事改革的背景下，俾斯麦的‘血与铁’演说针对的是普鲁士国王试图在议会推动的改革，他希望废除这些志愿部队，将普鲁士军队彻底重组为一支主要由职业军人组成的正规力量，因为他非常担忧这些志愿兵的思想和忠诚度——在他看来，他们并非真正的职业武装力量，而可能成为类似1848年革命那样的潜在威胁。

Brismak actually says that blood and iron speech in the context of military reforms that the Prussian King is trying to push through Parliament, where he wants to eradicate those volunteer units and completely restructure the Prussian military into a kind of professional force that is largely consistent of just professional soldiers rather than volunteers, because he is so concerned about their mindset and their loyalties that he doesn't see them as a professional armed force basically but as something that might potentially be a problem if you get another 1848 type revolution.

所以我认为两者都有，表面上看似乎存在对立或冲突，但其实未必如此。

So I think it's a bit of both and it seems a contrast or a conflict between the two but it's not necessarily one.

好的，关于这个话题，罗伯特·高维茨提出一个问题：康拉德·阿登纳认为，德国只有在消除普鲁士影响或普鲁士主义的情况下，才能真正成为一个民主国家，这种观点有多少道理？

Okay, on that theme we've got a question from Robert Gowits who asks, how much merit is there to the idea held by Conrad Adenauer that Germany could only become a truly democratic country if its Prussian influences or Prussianism were removed?

而且，稍微延伸一下这个问题，几乎不可能在审视19世纪德国尤其是普鲁士的历史时，不意识到纳粹德国后来发生了什么，对吧？

And just to kind of slightly put a spin on that question, It's almost impossible, isn't it, to look at the history of nineteenth century Germany and Prussia specifically without an awareness of what happens with Nazi Germany?

如果没有那场灾难，我们对普鲁士的认知会不会不同？我们会不会更强调它内部那些极其自由的特质，那些非凡的智识与文化成就，而不是如今在本国民众中——你也一定非常清楚——被过度强调的尖顶头盔、正步走等刻板形象？

And do you think without that catastrophe, our sense of Prussia would be different, that we would emphasize perhaps a bit more the way that the incredible liberal strains within it, these incredible intellectual and cultural achievements rather than the image of spiked helmets and goose stepping and so on, which is what certainly in this country, and you must be more than very aware of this, is what tends to get emphasized.

是的，确实如此。

Yeah, indeed.

我认为我们在这一点上也在某种程度上陷入了纳粹宣传的陷阱。

I think we are partially falling into the trap of listening to Nazi propaganda with that as well, I think.

希特勒直接试图通过使用‘第三帝国’这个词来将自己定位为继任者，声称这是继第二帝国之后的继承者，而第二帝国又是第一帝国的继承者。

Mean, the way that Hitler directly tried to put himself, just with the very word the Third Reich going then and saying this is now the successor state to the Second Reich, which in turn is the successor state to the First.

众所周知，他在1945年柏林最后的日子里，曾在地堡里挂着腓特烈大帝的肖像，诸如此类。

Quite famously, he had that portrait of Frederick the Great down in the bunker with him in the last days in Berlin in 1945 and all of that.

所以我认为，在某种程度上，正是纳粹自己的宣传试图在普鲁士和纳粹之间画出一条直线。

So I think to some extent it's the Nazi's own propaganda that sought to draw a line there, basically a straight line from Prussia to the Nazis.

当然还有波茨坦日，希特勒再次利用它来建立普鲁士与……之间的连续性。

You have the day of Potsdam, of course, which Hitler again uses as a means of drawing continuity between Prussia and

那是什么？

So what is that?

我之前不知道这件事。

I didn't know about that.

所以波茨坦日是希特勒公开获取兴登堡认可其统治的方式。

So the Day of Potsdam was Hitler's way of getting Hiddenberg's approval for his reign in public.

于是他们公开会面，兴登堡与希特勒握手，周围到处都是普鲁士徽章。

So they basically meet up in public and Hittenberg is shaking Hitler's hands and you have this kind of Prussian insignia everywhere.

他们并没有到处张贴纳粹旗帜，而是大量使用铁十字和普鲁士徽章，试图营造一种相似性。

Rather than having the Nazi flags plastered all over the place, they are using a lot of iron crosses and Prussian insignia really to try and draw a similarity there.

这多少有些讽刺，因为弗朗茨·冯·帕彭实际上在1932年的所谓普鲁士政变中几乎废除了普鲁士，他利用第48条条款，将普鲁士直接整合进德国联邦体系，实质上取消了它的存在。

And this is somewhat ironic given that Franz von Palben had actually abolished, practically abolished Prussia in the so called Prussian coup in 1932 where he literally integrated it using Article 48, literally integrated it into the German federal system in a way that practically abolished it.

因此，人们常说普鲁士是在1947年被废除的，但实际上它早在1932年就被废除了；然而希特勒却热衷于——他并没有恢复普鲁士，而是坚持中央集权体制，不给普鲁士任何权力回归的机会。

So in many ways people always talk about the abolishment of Prussia in 1947, in many ways it got abolished in 1932, and yet Hitler is keen to- he doesn't restore that, so Hitler sticks with the centralised state, you know, and doesn't allow Prussia any power back itself.

但他仍然喜欢那种理念：普鲁士历来尚武，所以我们也是一个尚武的社会，那就继续维持下去吧。

But nonetheless likes the idea of, you know, there was always militarism there so we are a militaristic society so let's stick with that.

我认为这种观念之所以延续下来，是因为希特勒高明的宣传所产生的巨大影响。

And I think that's stuck because of Hitler's brilliant propaganda in the sense of its effect on people.

我认为这种影响贯穿了时代，直到今天依然存在。

I think that's echoed through the ages and we still have that now, I think.

但对希特勒的军事抵抗，我想那也是普鲁士式的，对吧？

But the military opposition to Hitler, I mean that was kind of Prussian as well, wasn't it?

是的，我认为普鲁士军官们那种忠诚，以及他们因服从和责任感而产生的盲目忠诚，本质上都是他们自身的一部分。

Yeah, I think both the loyalty and the misplaced sense of loyalty that Prussian officers felt due to their sense of obedience and duty and all of that basically to them.

他们的军事理念是，他们本质上是国家的守望者。

Their kind of ethos as a military is they are like the watchdog basically of the state.

他们不介入政治，只是听从命令并出色地完成任务。

They don't get involved in politics, they do what they are told and they do it well.

我认为这在一定程度上导致了第二次世界大战的灾难性后果。

That's I think partially responsible for the devastation caused in the Second World War.

而另一方面，当然也有巨大的普鲁士反对力量，比如1944年的七月密谋。

And then on the flip side, you've also got, of course, huge Prussian opposition as per July Plot in 1944.

在很多方面，你可以看到这两种元素并存。

In many ways you can see both elements there.

我认为，普鲁士的良知与普鲁士的职责感和服从精神，共同促成了我们在二战中所看到的一切。

I think a Prussian conscience and a Prussian sense of duty and obedience both leading to what we see in the Second World War.

我想接着问一下，卡佳，关于汤姆的问题。

I want to just follow-up, Katya, on Tom's question.

顺便说一下，我同意汤姆的说法。

I agree, by the way, what Tom said.

我的意思是，要谈论德国历史几乎是不可能的。

I mean, it's impossible really to talk about German history.

即使你试图回避它，你也知道，纳粹的幽灵在某种程度上始终萦绕着每一位历史学者。

Even if you try to banish it, you know that the the specter of Nazism is kind of hanging over you to some extent as a as a historian.

但第一次世界大战也同样如此，因为关于德国从一开始就存在缺陷、德国具有军国主义倾向的讨论，并不是从第二次世界大战才开始的。

But also, I think the first World War too, because, you know, the sort of the discussion about Germany being flawed from the outset and Germany being militaristic, I mean, didn't begin in the Second World War.

这些观点早在第一次世界大战中期的英国宣传中就已经存在了，当时说德国人天生贪婪、被将军们奴役，诸如此类。

That was all there in British propaganda, particularly in the middle of the First World War, that the Germans were uniquely rapacious or greedy and enslaved by their generals and all this sort of stuff.

而听众们提出的许多问题背后，实际上都笼罩着普鲁士和德国对第一次世界大战的责任问题。

And and hanging over a lot of the questions from the listeners is basically Prussian and German responsibility for World War one.

我们之前做过一期播客，引发了大量关于第一次世界大战起因的讨论。

Now we had talked had a podcast that generated tons of discussion about the causes of World War I.

我想知道，在你的书中，你似乎认同这样一种观点：最终你认为德国应对战争负有责任，或者至少承担了主要责任，比如德国给了奥匈帝国‘空白支票’，威廉二世的野心等等。

And I'm wondering, in your book, you seem to go along with the idea that ultimately you think it's Germany's fault or that Germany bears a huge share of the responsibility for the war, that it is the blank check, the Kaiser's ambitions, all this sort of stuff.

你能否就此再多说一点？

Do you want to say a bit more about that?

你认为第一次世界大战是德国的错吗？

Do you think it was Germany's fault, the First World War?

我试图从德国的角度来看待这个问题，我认为我不会走得那么远，说德国是故意引发世界大战的，但我确实认为德国认为冲突有助于缓解国内仍然存在的分裂。

Well, I was trying to see it from a German perspective and I think I wouldn't go as far as to say it is Germany's fault in the sense that they were deliberately causing a world war, but I do think they were taking the view that conflict was helpful for the internal divisions that were still there.

俾斯麦无疑尽了最大努力，无论好坏，通过各种政策来统一德意志人，但到了威廉上台时，很明显在社会、文化和宗教上，德意志人仍然严重分裂，这个国家随时面临解体的危险。

So Bismarck had tried his best, obviously, for better or worse, with his various different policies to unite Germans, but it was blatantly obvious by the time that Willem came into power that socially, culturally, religiously Germans were still hugely divided and that realm was constantly at risk of breaking apart.

我认为，当人们越来越清楚地意识到，某种形式的冲突可能再次发生时，考虑到自普法战争以来已经四十多年没有战争了。

And I think when it became more obvious that that conflict in some shape or form could be lived again, bearing in mind that there hadn't been a war since the Franco Prussian war and that was by that time more than four decades away.

他们需要一些东西，否则这个国家就会分崩离析。

They needed something, otherwise that realm was breaking apart.

当时有一个著名的时期，人们常称之为——如果你愿意，也可以看作是停滞，但毫无疑问，从1912年到1914年几乎是一场危机。

There was this famous period that's often called- you can see it as stagnation really if you want to, but it was certainly almost a crisis from about 1912 to 1914.

虽然表面上看不出来，没有大规模的起义或类似事件，但帝国议会陷入僵局，工会成员数量激增，人们隐隐感觉到内部危机即将爆发。

Whilst it didn't seem that way, there were no great uprisings or anything like that, but there was complete standstill in the Reichstag, the trade unions were swelling in ranks, there was some sort of sense that a crisis internally was about to erupt.

我认为威廉和军方都意识到需要采取某种措施来应对这一局面，而战争在当时看来似乎是个不错的解决方案。

And I think Wilhelm and the militaries accepted that they needed something to deal with that and the war seemed a good idea in that sense.

此外，考虑到第一次世界大战的规模是人们完全未曾预料的，他们真的只是以为会再来一场类似1870年那样的冲突，或者在巴尔干地区规模稍大一点，之后就结束了。

So bearing in mind as well that the First World War is on a scale that people just hadn't anticipated, they literally just thought they were going to have another, I think, sort of 1870 or maybe a bit bigger in the Balkans and that would be the end of that.

尤其是威廉，他完全误判了英国不会参战的事实，毕竟英德王室有亲属关系等等，我认为，如果你非要归咎于他们，那确实如此，但我并不认为他们有意步入一场世界大战——除了可能的毛奇，因为他一直想成为‘小毛奇’，并努力追随他那位在普法战争中声名显赫的叔叔‘老毛奇’的脚步。

Willem in particular was so deluded about the fact that Britain wouldn't get involved, surely not his family and all the rest of it, that I think, you know, if you want put the blame on them for that, yes, but I don't think they were willingly walking into a world war, with the possible exception actually of Moltke maybe, because he had this thing about being Moltke the Younger and needing to step into the footsteps of his famous uncle Moltke the Elder, who made his name in the Franco Prussian war.

因此，我认为他比其他人抱有更多野心，

So I think with him, there's a bit more ambition there than with

那我们对威廉二世是不是太苛刻了？

the And do you think we're too hard, generally, on the Kaiser, on Wilhelm II?

你觉得我们是不是把他看成一个有点可怜的滑稽人物，而不是那种所向披靡、头戴尖顶盔的帝王形象？

Do you think we you know, he's basically a slightly pitiful comic figure, isn't he, rather than this sort of all conquering spiked helmet kind of

我同意这个看法，是的。

I'd go with that, yeah.

我的意思是，这并不意味着可以免除他应负的责任以及他实际所做的事情。

I mean, that's not to absolve him from his responsibility and from what he effectively did.

我的意思是，最终来说，他不仅是国家元首，还是武装部队的最高统帅。

I mean, backstops with him ultimately, he's not only the head of state but also the commander in chief of the armed forces.

所以，他本可以坚决反对的，我想。

So he could have put his foot down, I suppose.

但当你从智力层面来看，我认为他既没有能力，也没有耐心去坐下来把这一切彻底理清楚。

But then when you look at just intellectually, I think he neither had the capability nor the patience to actually sit there and work it all out.

所以在我看来，与其说他被军方操控，不如说他确实缺乏看清大局的能力，只是任由自己被战争的前景所吸引，也想试试他过去十年到二十年里一直研发的那些新式武器。

So I think in many ways- I wouldn't say he was played by the militaries but he was certainly not, I think, capable of seeing the bigger picture of this and just allowed himself to be, I don't know, kind of intrigued, I guess, by the prospect of war and by being able to try all of his new shiny toys that he'd been developing in the last sort of ten-twenty years.

我认为这是一个非常重要的方面——他对所有科技和军事事物那种孩子般的好奇心。

I think that's a huge aspect, his childlike fascination for all things technological and military and things.

不仅是军事，他也热爱科技，喜欢坐在那些崭新的无畏舰旁边，琢磨着它们到底能做什么，会是什么样子。

Not only military, but he loved his technology as well and to sit there with all of those new dreadnought class ships and whatever and he sits there and wonders, you know, what would they actually do, what would it be like?

这一点我绝不低估，这对他来说是一个心理因素：他就是想亲眼看看这些武器真正运作起来是什么样子。

And that I wouldn't underestimate as a psychological factor that he just wanted to see it live and in action.

而且他还穿着错误的游艇鞋去见牛，是吧？

And and he wore the wrong yachting shoes to cows, didn't he?

这我敢肯定造成了毁灭性的

Which I'm sure had a devastating

心理影响。

psychological dimension.

这显然深深植根于你的潜意识中。

This is this is something deeply rooted in your own subconscious clearly.

这是你在这档播客中第二次提到游艇问题了。

This is the second time in these podcasts that you've mentioned the issue of yachting issues.

我来告诉你这是怎么回事。

I'll tell you what it is.

我有个朋友，上学时他父亲是福克兰群岛的一艘船的船长。

I had a friend who's at school, whose father was a captain to ship in the Falklands.

其中一项福利是可以拥有一艘游艇，在怀特岛周围航行，那却是我人生中最糟糕的四天。

And one of the perks is that you could get a yacht and sail around the Isle Of Wight, And it was one of the worst four days of my life.

我一直晕船。

I was constantly seasick.

我记得我们驶入考斯港时，我看着人们在码头上来回走动，从未如此嫉妒过任何人。

And I remember we pulled into the harbor at Cows and I looked at people kind of walking up and down the quay, and I've never felt as jealous of anyone.

从那以后，我一直对在考斯度过糟糕时光的德皇怀有某种同病相怜的感觉。

And I've always felt some fellow feeling with the Kaiser who turned miserable time at Cowes ever since.

但关于我和德皇的话题就到此为止吧。

But enough of me and the Kaiser.

卡佳，我觉得我们可能讨论得还不够充分的一个人物是俾斯麦。

Katja, one person who I think we perhaps haven't talked about enough is Bismarck.

我想知道俾斯麦对此事的影响力有多大？

And I wonder how how influential is Bismarck on this?

我们收到了帕特·库珀的提问：如果俾斯麦早出现三十年，我们现在讨论的会是全球性的普鲁士德意志帝国而非大英帝国吗？

We we have a question from Pat Cooper who says, if Bismarck had come thirty years earlier, would we have been talking about a global Prussian German empire rather than a British empire?

我的意思是，我觉得这某种程度上也融入了德国海外野心的概念，或许我们也可以探讨一下。

I mean, I guess that that's kind of bundling into the idea of of German ambitions overseas that perhaps we could also look at.