33. 美丽的游戏

电影、足球、啤酒，最重要的是，填满了他们思想的整个视野。

Films, football, beer, and above all, filled up the horizon of their minds.

要控制他们并不困难。

To keep them in control was not difficult.

乔治·奥威尔在他的反乌托邦杰作《1984》中如此说道。

So said George Orwell in his dystopian masterpiece 1984.

足球——对我们美国听众而言，长期以来被视为无产阶级的运动——如今已崛起为现代流行文化中最强大的元素，突破了其工人阶级的堡垒，俘获了各个年龄、各个阶层男女的想象力。

Football or soccer to our American listeners for so long seen as the sport of the proles has emerged as the single strongest element of modern day popular culture breaking out from its working class stronghold and capturing the imagination of men and women of all ages and all classes.

这是如何发生的？我们用22个人踢球的表演取代了几乎所有的战斗形式，这又意味着什么？

How did this happen, and what does it mean that we have replaced nearly all forms of combat with the spectacle of 22 men kicking a ball around?

和我在一起的是热衷足球的多米尼克·桑德布鲁克。

With me is Dominic Sandbrook, keen football fan.

你好，汤姆。

Hello, Tom.

你穿着你的狼队球衣回应。

Responded in your your your wolves shirt.

是的

Yeah.

哦，金色的。

Oh, gold.

大狼队粉丝。

Big wolves fan.

嗯哼。

Uh-huh.

当然是英格兰足球联赛的创始俱乐部之一，也在英超联赛中。

One of the founding, one of the founding clubs of the English Football League, of course, and, in the premiership.

是的。

Yeah.

我是个维拉队的忠实球迷，也是英格兰足球联赛12家创始俱乐部之一，同样在英超联赛中。

I I I'm a big Villa fan, also one of the 12 founding clubs of the English football league and in the premiership.

加入我们的是乔纳森·威尔逊，他是桑德兰队的支持者。

And joining us is Jonathan Wilson, who is a Sunderland supporter.

乔纳森，桑德兰既不是这两者之一，对吧？

Jonathan, Sunderland's neither of those two things, is it?

不过，汤姆，我们现在称之为英超联赛，我相信你很清楚。

Well, we call it the Premier League now, Tom, as I'm sure you're aware.

实际上，你提到一个非常关键的点，那就是1888年成立的英格兰联赛，当某些球队因距离太远而被禁止参赛时，它真的算得上全国性联赛吗？

And actually, you touch on a very, I think immediately you hit upon a critical point, which is, was the English league, as founded in 1888, really a national league when certain teams were banned from entering for being too far away?

我们真的能将普雷斯顿在前两个赛季的两次夺冠视为真正的联赛冠军吗？毕竟当时本质上只是兰开夏郡和西米德兰兹地区的区域性联赛。

Can we really count Preston's two titles in in those first two seasons as genuine league titles when essentially it was a Lancaster or only a Lancashire West Midlands combination, a regional league.

当然，在他们加入联赛的第一个赛季，表现极为出色。

So, of course, in their first season in the league, did exceptionally well.

他们在前五个赛季中赢得了三次冠军。

They went on to win it three times in the first five seasons.

这正是我预料他会表现的方式。

Precisely the way I knew he would behave.

你看吧？

You see?

汤姆，别让我谈1913年的那场史诗级比赛，我们知道维拉当时是怎么作弊的。

And and and, Tom, don't get me started on the 1913 epic because we know how Villa cheated there.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，我一上来就把球给丢了。

And so immediately, I've given the ball away.

威尔逊已经突破并进球了。

Wilson has broken and has scored already.

1913年维拉对阵桑德兰的决赛是如此有争议。

The nineteen thirteen epic up final between Villa and Sonnen was so controversial.

乔纳森。

Jonathan.

他们

They

因为有些人太过愤怒，以至于次年八月连慈善盾杯都不愿意参加。

couldn't even play the charity shield the following August because some of refused to take part because they're so outraged.

我希望你为此感到应有的羞愧，汤姆。

And I I I hope you feel the requisite shame for that, Tom.

汤姆从来不会感到任何羞愧。

Tom never feels any shame.

我可以向你保证这一点。

I can assure you of that.

所以，对于那些不熟悉乔纳森在多个足球和体育播客中杰出工作、以及他撰写的众多优秀足球书籍的听众来说，乔纳森，我想问你：对于那些熟悉你作品但可能根本不爱足球的人而言，足球是否值得历史学家研究？

So so so those listeners who who are not familiar with Jonathan's incredible work on multiple football and sporting podcasts in the media, author of a range of fantastic books on football, Jonathan, I wanted to ask you, for those who are familiar with your work and who may not even like football, is football a worthwhile object of study for historians?

我打算给你引用一位伟大历史学家罗伯特·科尔斯的话，他的《体育人生》一书去年出版，我几周前刚读过。

And I'm going to I'm gonna give you a quote from the great historian Robert Coles, whose book for Sporting Life came out last year, and I I read a couple of weeks ago.

这是一本极佳的好书。

It's a fantastic excellent book.

他谈到体育整体时曾说，这一点对足球也同样适用。

And he and he says about sport generally, but this would work very well for football.

我认为体育是一个重要的研究主题，虽然它本身或许并非如此，但它几乎渗透在我们所做的一切之中。

I think it is a major subject, not in itself perhaps, but in the way it is woven into almost everything else we do.

他谈到体育，进而延伸到足球，这是英格兰伟大的文明文化之一。

And he he talks of sport, and, again, by extension, football, one of England's great civil cultures.

所以这显然是一档历史播客，而不是体育播客。

So this is obviously a history podcast, not a sport podcast.

你会如何说服那些对足球一无所知、可能对将其作为播客主题持怀疑态度的人，让他们相信历史学家研究足球是有价值的？

How would you convince people who who know nothing about football, who might be skeptical about having this as a subject for a podcast, that it's it's worthwhile for historians to look at?

我的意思是，一方面，足球完全是微不足道的。

I mean, so on the one hand, football is entirely trivial.

你知道，谁在什么时候赢了、谁在什么时候进了哪个球，这些细节基本上无关紧要。

You know, I I recognize that the the details of who won what when and who scored which goals when is largely irrelevant.

但大卫·戈德布拉特在他两年前出版的《足球时代》一书中指出，如今足球是有史以来最普遍的文化形式。

But, mean, David Goldblatt in his book, the age of football, which came out two years ago, he makes the point that football now is the most universal cultural mode there has ever been.

它遍布世界各地。

It is everywhere in the world.

我记得2015年我在埃塞俄比亚的拉贝拉，当时是为了去看岩洞教堂。

I mean, I remember I was in Ethiopia in 2015 in La Bella and I was there to see the rock churches.

在一个周六的午餐时间，我在一家餐厅里说，我挺想看今天切尔西对利物浦的比赛。

And on a Saturday afternoon at lunchtime I was in a restaurant and said, I quite want to watch Chelsea v Liverpool today.

我在哪儿能看呢？

Where can I do it?

餐厅经理说，哦，我要下班了。

And the restaurant manager said, oh, well, I'm knocking off.

跟我来吧。

Come with me.

我们去了这家咖啡馆。

We went to this cafe.

这家咖啡馆里有大约两百人正在看电视。

There's about 200 people in this cafe watching the TV.

然后他说，如果你想要真正的体验，我们应该去其中一个视频厅。

And then he said, well, if you want the real experience, we should go to one of the video halls.

于是我们去看了斯旺西对阿森纳的比赛。

So we went then to watch Swansea v Arsenal.

前面就挂着一块大屏幕，我不知道这种地方该叫什么，就是个泥泞的土坡，上面钉着一些座位。

And there was just a big screen at the front of this, I don't know what you call this, a muddy bank with seats hammered into the bank.

我觉得里面大概有五百人。

I would say probably 500 people in there.

上面还盖着一层顶棚。

There's sort of top all them over the top.

入场要付五比尔或者类似的费用，算是象征性的收费。

You had to pay 5 bir or whatever to get in, a notional fee.

对我来说，这笔钱对当地人来说可能相当可观。

Well, to me, guess locals probably was quite significant.

这个小村庄里一共有三个这样的观赛厅，还有许多这样的咖啡馆。

This was one of three of these halls in this kind of quite small village, and there's all these cafes.

于是我算出来，这个埃塞俄比亚村庄里，有20%的成年男性在任何一个周六下午都在观看英超比赛。

So I worked out 20% of the adult male population of this village in Ethiopia were watching the Premier League on any given Saturday afternoon.

所以，这件事占据了大量人群的情感和精神空间。

So this is something that takes up a huge amount of the emotional intellectual space of a huge number of people.

而这在我看来有两个有趣的后果。

And that then I think has two interesting consequences.

一个是政治家如何试图将足球用作宣传工具这一直接后果。

So one is the very direct consequence of how politicians try to use football as a tool of propaganda.

另一个是加利亚诺的观点，埃杜阿尔多·加利亚诺，乌拉圭诗人、政治家、理论家，正如你所知，汤姆可能对他持严重怀疑态度。

And the other is the point that Galliano makes, Eduardo Galliano, Uruguayan poet, politician, theorist, who as you know Tom might have severe doubts about.

但他提出的观点——‘告诉我你们怎么踢球，我就告诉你你们是谁’——我认为非常有意义，一个文化球队的踢球方式，确实能在很大程度上反映该文化的特点，尤其是在阿根廷这种文化高度自觉的情况下。

But the point he makes that show me how you play and I'll tell you who you are, I think is very significant that the way a culture's teams, the way a culture plays football, think can tell you quite a lot about that culture, particularly when it's self conscious as it is in the case of say Argentina.

如果我可以插一句，从历史学家的角度来看，当你写罗马史时，如果不提及角斗士比赛、战车竞赛或任何让普通罗马人着迷的娱乐活动，那反而会显得奇怪。

If I can just jump in, thinking about it from a historian's point of view, I mean, when you write about the Romans, it would be weird for you not to mention gladiatorial games or chariot racing or any of the hobbies and the things that fascinated ordinary Romans.

对我来说，写战后英国的历史时，大多数人当时根本不在乎社会契约，也不关心哈罗德·威尔逊振兴经济的计划，或者玛格丽特·撒切尔的货币主义政策。

And for me writing about postwar Britain, I mean, most people at any given moment cared, didn't give a damn about the social contract or the details of Harold Wilson's plan to revive the economy or indeed Margaret Thatcher's monetarist policies.

他们理解并构建自己生活的方式，显然关乎个人叙事，但往往并非围绕政治事件展开。

The way they understood and structured their lives was obviously about a personal narrative, but it's often about a narrative that's not about political events.

而是围绕体育赛事或文化事件、音乐展开，如果不以人们自身的视角去理解他们的生活，不了解什么对他们真正重要，我认为实际上就错过了生活的本质。

It's about sporting events or cultural events, music, And and to not take people's lives in their own terms and and and understand what matters to them, I think, is actually to miss what life

就是关于这个。

was about.

但为了向乔纳森提出这个问题，我的意思是，罗马人有他们的角斗运动。

But to to put that to to ask Jonathan, I mean, so so the Romans, they have their gladiatorial sports.

希腊人有他们的体育竞技。

The Greeks have their athletics.

中美洲的人民有他们的球类游戏。

The peoples of Mesoamerica have their ball games.

但足球显然源自某种特定的文化背景和国家背景。

But football is coming out of presumably a specific cultural context, a national context.

它偏偏在英格兰诞生，这确实很重要。

It does presumably matter that it emerges specifically from England.

我的意思是，它难道就不能在任何地方诞生吗？

Mean, could it just have emerged from anywhere?

我的意思是，乔纳森，不是有件事是国际足联说的吗？说它的起源其实是在中国之类的？

I mean, there was what Jonathan, wasn't the thing that FIFA said that actually its origins lay in China or something?

我是不是记错了？

Have I misremembered that?

我记得他们说过这一点。

I remember them saying that.

我记得塞夫·布拉特非常明确地提过这一点。

I remember Seth Blatter making that point very explicitly.

抱歉。

Sorry.

你请说，特罗夫。

Go ahead, Troph.

我的意思是，塞夫·布拉特当然会说什么都行。

I've missed mean, of course, Seth Blatter would say whatever.

塞夫·布拉特是国际足联的前主席，而国际足联是这项运动的管理机构。

Seth Blatter is a former president of FIFA, which is the governing body of the sport.

他会说任何当时对他政治上有利的话。

He would say whatever was useful to him politically at the time.

我的意思是，塞思·布拉特说的某件事几乎可以肯定不是真的

I mean, Seth Blatt is saying something is almost certainly guaranteed it's not true

而不是相反。

rather than reverse.

所以那不是真的。

So it's not true.

显然真实的是，许多不同的文化都开展球类运动。

Well, is clearly true is that lots of different cultures practice ball sports.

所以，我认为早在五千年前的中国，就已经出现了我们所知的最早证据。

So we have, I think it's five thousand years ago in China, which does appear to be the earliest evidence we find.

但也有传说，我记得小时候去南希尔兹的阿贝亚罗马堡垒时，有人告诉我，那里的罗马士兵会踢被他们斩首的敌人的头颅。

But there's also stories of, and I remember going to the Roman fort in South Shields to Arbeia as a kid and being told that Roman soldiers there would kick around the heads of their enemies who they decapitated in battle.

我认为哥伦布的日志中提到，当他抵达加勒比群岛时，看到岛民们在玩一种橡胶球游戏。

I think in Columbus's logs, he notes when he gets to the Caribbean Islands, sees islanders playing a game with a rubber ball.

所以显然，球类运动在许多不同文化中以多种形式存在。

So clearly ball sports have existed in many different cultures, many different forms.

我们今天所熟知的足球，显然源自1863年晚期在伦敦考文特花园附近的共济会酒馆举行的一系列会议，这些会议旨在让来自各学校和大学的球队代表达成一种统一的玩法。

Football as we know it today very clearly comes from a series of meetings held at Freemason's Tavern near Covent Garden in London in late eighteen sixty three, which were an attempt by representatives of teams who would come out of the schools and universities to try and get one game.

但每所学校、每所大学都有自己版本的足球，他们希望制定一套统一的规则，这样当你从学校升入大学时，就不会再为‘足球到底是什么’而长时间争论了。

But each school, each university had its own form of football, and they want a unified set of laws so that, you know, when when you came from your school, you got to university, you didn't have these long arguments about what football was.

你们可以依据一套明确的规则来比赛。

You had a set of laws you could play by.

这些学校是公学。

These schools are public schools.

正如我所说，这不正是它的迷人之处吗？

As I was to say, that's the fascination, isn't it?

从一开始，你就面临着所谓‘工人阶级的运动’与精英公学所确立的规范化足球之间的张力。

From the start, you have this tension between the so called working man's game and the elite public school origins of the codified game.

你不这么认为吗？

Don't you think

这种张力一直存在吗？

that tension's always been there?

是的，这种张力一直存在，因为制定这些规则的人正如你所说，都是来自公立学校。

Yeah, that tension has absolutely always been there because the people who are setting those laws are, as you say, they're former public schools.

而第一个成立的俱乐部是在谢菲尔德，它比这早几年就成立了，是一个工人阶级的俱乐部，工人的俱乐部。

Whereas the first club founded is in Sheffield, It had been founded a few years earlier, and that was a working class club, working man's club.

所以，是的，这种张力一直存在。

So yeah, that tension has always been there.

当然，这也是为什么你会在职业化问题上爆发巨大争论，最终在1885年被合法化。

And of course, this is why you get the huge arguments over professionalism, which eventually is legalized in 1885.

所以乔纳森，关键点其实在于规则，因为 presumably 你也知道，这些古老的传统可以追溯到中世纪，当时城镇里的人们只是把猪膀胱踢来踢去，或者类似的事情，那简直就是无序的混乱。

So Jonathan, the key thing really is about laws because presumably also you have these kind of ancient traditions that go back to the Middle Ages of towns just kicking pigs bladders through the streets or whatever, and that's organized chaos, really.

没有规则。

There aren't rules.

这就是规则。

That's the rule.

没有任何规则。

There are no rules.

而在十九世纪，不仅仅是足球，还有板球、橄榄球、网球等各种运动，正是这些规则的系统化真正塑造了它们如今的模样。

Whereas in the nineteenth century, it's not just football, it's cricket, rugby, tennis, all these sports, It's the codification that really makes them what they become.

是的。

Yeah.

维多利亚时代的人显然拥有极强的规则制定能力。

The Victorians clearly had this great gift for codification.

因此，从任何有意义的角度来看，现代足球都源自1863年的这些会议。

So in any meaningful sense, modern football comes from these meetings in 1863.

如果你看看那十二项规则，它们被简化了。

And if you look at the 12 laws, they drop.

它们与我们今天所拥有的规则惊人地相似。

They're remarkably similar to what we have today.

我的意思是，虽然经历了一系列变化，尤其是最近的调整，但这些规则依然清晰可辨，就是今天足球的样子。

I mean, there's been a series of changes, particularly recently, essentially those laws are recognizable as football as it is today.

现在我认为，另一个有趣的视角是，这些学校当时在玩的究竟是什么游戏？

Now I think this another interesting avenue of what are these games that the schools are playing?

它们似乎源自村民的群体性游戏。

And they seem to derive from the mob game of the villagers.

你们是从哪里得到这些游戏的？

And did you get these games?

通常这些游戏会在圣灰星期二或其他某个节日举行，两个村民或同一个村庄的两方会进行一场游戏，目标是把一个猪膀胱、一袋干草或任何充当球的东西从一端运到另一端。

Normally they'd held on say Shrove Tuesday or some other feast day that two villagers or two halves of the same village would play a game which would involve trying to get a pig's bladder or a sack of hay or whatever your ball happens to be from one end to the other.

关于为什么会发展出这种游戏，有各种理论。

And there's various theories as to why that should have grown up.

其中最有趣的一种——虽然听起来合理，但显然无法证实——是这某种源于生育仪式的遗迹。

One of the most interesting of which, I mean, it seems plausible, but obviously there's no way of knowing, is that this is some sort of vestige of a fertility rate.

因此，由于这些早期游戏的球门往往是地上的洞，将球形物体放入洞中象征着太阳对大地的受精，而这种说法的巨大讽刺在于，我怀疑这些公学的起源与此有关。

And so because of the goals as it were in these early games often holes in the ground, the placing of spherical object in the hole represents a fertilization of the earth by the sun, which is then this great irony that why the republic schools I'm skeptical.

嗯，我持怀疑态度，但我确信詹姆斯·弗雷泽会相信这一点。

Well, yeah, I'm skeptical, but it's I'm sure James Fraser would believed this.

对詹姆斯·弗雷泽来说，一切都被视为生育仪式。

For James Fraser, everything was a fertility rite.

但这里有一个美妙的讽刺：在公学里，是什么推动了体育运动？

But then you have this beautiful irony that in the public schools, what drives sport?

为什么体育如此重要？

Why is sport so important?

为什么它在课程中如此核心？

Why is it so central to the curriculum?

这是肌肉基督教的理念。

It's muscular Christianity.

这种理念认为，要让男孩们变得坚强，以管理帝国，同时也有一种对所谓自我中心主义的可怕恐惧。

It's this idea that you to toughen boys up for running the empire, but also this terrible fear of what they call solipsism, I.

嗯。

E.

手淫，如果让一个男孩独处，他会沉溺于这种削弱身心的行为。

Masturbation, that if you leave a boy alone, he's going to partake of his debilitating act.

因此，你需要让他和许多其他男孩在场上奔跑，进行一场生育仪式。

So what you need is him to be running around on a field with loads of other boys performing a fertility rite.

好吧，在此之前

Well, before

在汤姆发言之前，我想先提一个问题，他如果没人阻止的话，肯定会问关于肌肉基督教的问题。

Tom gets in, I want to get in and ask the question He that he undoubtedly will ask if leave him unchecked about muscular Christianity.

所以，很多——当然，相当多的这类原始俱乐部都是由教会创立的，对吧？

So a lot of the well, certainly, a a large number of this sort of original clubs were founded by churches, weren't they?

所以基督教的介入，是因为社会控制，你觉得是这样吗？

So Christianity was always was it because of social control, would you say?

我知道这是为了驯服工业城市中不断涌动的激情。

I know trying to sort of domesticate the surging passions of the growing industrial cities.

你认为这也是原因之一吗？

Do you think that's part of it?

可能确实有一部分是这样。

There may have been some of that.

我认为人们也意识到，运动比喝酒更健康。

I think also there was a recognition that sport was healthy, healthier than drinking for instance.

是的。

Yeah.

你在各个国家都能看到这种现象的不同形式。

And you see this in various forms in various countries.

例如，俄罗斯最早的俱乐部之一是由来自布莱克本的查努克兄弟创立的。

So for instance, one of the earliest clubs in Russia is founded by the Chanuk brothers who are from Blackburn.

他们在莫斯科郊外经营莫佐夫纺织厂。

They run the Mozov mills, these textile mills in outside Moscow.

他们组建了一支足球队，因为如果不这么做，工人们会在周六下午喝伏特加，而他们意识到踢足球对他们来说更好。

And they set up a football club because if they didn't, their workers spent Saturday afternoons knocking back vodka, and they recognized that playing football was better for them than that.

所以我认为，人们有一种普遍的认识，认为足球本身是一项有益的运动。

So I think there's sort of a sense that football is a sport is good in and of itself.

我认为有趣的是，这种观念在19世纪由肌肉基督教传播，而在两次世界大战之间的中欧，则由肌肉犹太教传播。

And what I think is then fascinating is that this is an idea propagated by muscular Christianity through the nineteenth century, but then between the wars in Central Europe is propagated by muscular Judaism.

哦，原来如此。

Oh, right.

所以你有比如哈库尔，他们是——再说一遍？

So you have for instance Hakur, who are the- Say that again?

哈库尔，他们是维也纳专门的犹太复国主义俱乐部，他们在1925年赢得了奥地利联赛冠军，但他们的宗旨是推广肌肉犹太主义并为犹太复国主义筹款。

Hakur, who are the specifically Zionist club of Vienna, and they win the Austrian league in 1925, but they are there to promote muscular judicial and to raise funds for Zionism.

关于你刚才提到的，乔纳森，你说工业家把足球带到俄罗斯，足球联赛的12个创始俱乐部基本上都是兰开夏郡和米德兰兹的俱乐部。

And just going back to what you Jonathan, what you were saying about industrialists spreading football to Russia, the 12 founding clubs of the football league are basically Lancashire and Midlands clubs.

所以这正是工业革命的核心地带。

So very much the beating heart of the industrial revolution.

当你想到俱乐部的绰号，比如‘齿轮’、‘锤子’等等。

And you think about the nickname for clubs, the gummers and hammers and so on.

这些都是工业相关的名称。

These are industrial names.

足球在英国兴起时，情况是这样的吗？

Is football as it emerges in Britain?

我们谈到了公学传统，但其实它的根基是，它是一项工业运动。

We talked about the public school tradition, but is really mean, the bedrock is that it's an industrial sport.

这是一种为产业工人和工业城镇而生的运动。

It's a sport for industrial workers, industrial towns.

这样说公平吗？

Would that be fair?

是的，我认为是这样。

Yes, I think so.

我的意思是，早期取得成功的俱乐部所在的城市，无一例外都是米德兰兹和北部的大型工业城镇和城市。

I mean, you see certainly the towns that have clubs that are successful early are all the big industrial towns and cities of the Midlands and North.

我的意思是，直到1931年，我们才出现伦敦冠军，而联赛早在1888年就成立了。

I mean, we don't have a London champion until 1931, so the league begins in 1888.

我觉得这很有意义。

I think that's significant.

这种模式在全球范围内反复出现：在极权国家，成功总是集中在首都。

This is a pattern that's repeated across the world, that in totalitarian states, success is always focused on the capital.

而在大多数民主发达国家，成功则源于大型工业城镇，直到后来首都才逐渐成为焦点。

In most democratic developed countries, it's the big industrial towns, and it's only later when capital becomes much more focused on the capital.

比如在意大利，都灵和米兰是两个成功的城市。

So you see in Italy, for instance, Turin and Milan are two successful cities.

相比之下，罗马却一点也不成功。

Rome is not successful at all by comparison.

但确实，你能看到这种模式反复出现，那就是这些外省城市。

But yeah, you see that pattern repeated, that it's the provincial cities.

我不确定这是否与工业本身有什么特定关联。

I don't know whether that's because there's something specific about industry.

显然，足球作为观赛体育兴起的关键因素之一是《工厂法》，它让工人每周六下午放假。

Obviously, one of the key things in the growth of football as a spectator sport is the Factory Act, gives workers Saturday afternoon off.

那么他们能做什么呢？

So what are they gonna do?

让他们去看足球比赛。

Give them football to go and watch.

或者是因为外省城市需要表达自己的身份，足球俱乐部成为了地方自豪感的体现，因此人们会投资于俱乐部。

Or or whether it's a sense that provincial cities need to express their identity, the football club has become an expression of local pride and so there's investment in the club.

这可能是这两个因素的结合。

It's probably a mix of those two factors.

确实如此，比如比尔巴鄂，对吧？

That's true, someone like Bilbao, isn't it?

我是说，这些地方通过与所谓的

I mean, these places that define themselves in opposition to the sort of

中心相对立来定义自己。

Sort of the center.

是的，相对于国家大都市。

Yeah, to the national metropole.

比尔·鲍尔斯是个非常特殊的案例。

I mean, Bill Bowers is a very specific case.

毕尔巴鄂竞技是西班牙仅有的三家从未降级的俱乐部之一，考虑到他们的预算，这简直不可思议。

Athletic are one of only three clubs in Spain never to be relegated, which given their budget is incredible.

但显然，他们承载了巴斯克民族主义的沉重负担。

But obviously they take on a whole huge amount of a weight of Basque nationalism.

毕尔巴鄂的竞技队是一个非常特殊的案例。

Athletic in Bilbao is a very particular case.

显然，巴塞罗那也承载了加泰罗尼亚民族认同的理念。

Obviously Barcelona's taken on the idea of Catalan nationalhood as well.

既然我们已经谈到国外了，那就聊聊足球的输出吧。

So now that we've moved abroad, let's talk about the export of football.

足球 presumably 是跟随帝国扩张的。

So football presumably follows the empire.

它是跟随什么？商船吗？

It follows what, the merchant ships?

不，不，我认为这并不正确，因为如果你看看那些主要的帝国殖民地，比如澳大利亚、加拿大、印度，就知道了。

No, no, I don't think that's true actually, because if you look at the big imperial, the big colonies, Australia, Canada, India Okay.

我可以问一个问题吗？来自热刺球迷西蒙·夏玛的一个问题，我听说他还写过《奇怪的历史报告》。

Could I I've got a question for you from Spurs fan called Simon Sharma, who I gather has also may have written the Odd History Report to.

他偶尔会……

He dabbles,

他不是吗？

isn't he?

他确实涉猎广泛，不是吗？

He dabbles, isn't he?

他涉猎广泛。

He dabbles.

但他主要关注的是足球。

But his main focus is is is football.

他问，为什么足球没有像板球那样在19世纪的大英帝国中流行起来？

And he asks, why didn't football take off as the sport of the nineteenth century British empire while cricket did?

坦白说，我不知道，但我怀疑这可能与阶级有关，因为足球成功输出的地方，正是我所谓的非正式帝国。

The honest answer is I don't know, but wonder if it has something to do with class because where footballers export successfully is in what I guess you could call the informal empire.

比如阿根廷，虽然它从未是帝国的一部分，但那里显然受到英国的巨大影响——英国掌控了肉类产业、加工厂、货币供应和银行体系。

Some of that I mean, Argentina for instance is the great example that although it was never part of the empire, there was clearly enormous British influence there that Britain ran the meat industry and the processing plants and the money supply, the banking system.

法国人似乎控制了港口，但英国显然在阿根廷拥有巨大的政治和经济影响力。

Mean, the French seemed to have controlled the docks, but Britain clearly had an enormous political and economic influence over Argentina.

而那里的英格兰影响或英国影响，实际上主要是苏格兰的影响，非常巨大。

And the English influence or the British influence there, it's a Scottish influence really, is enormous.

这是因为那里建立了许多学校，也因为企业在迅速工业化的布宜诺斯艾利斯开展业务。

That's because of the schools that are founded, it's because of companies working in the rapidly industrializing Buenos Aires.

所以我认为，最初六支球队中，我不确定是第一年，但应该是1890年代阿根廷联赛成立后的第二或第三年。

So I think one of the six teams who, I don't think in the first year, I think it's the second or the third year near the Argentinian league, which was founded early 1890s.

其中一支球队是一家苏格兰的管道公司，他们当时来安装下水道工程。

One of the teams is a Scottish plumbing company who were there to put in the sewage works.

因此，组织化的足球在那里非常英国化，但很快就迅速发展起来。

So it's very much Organized football is very British there, but it rapidly takes off.

到了1913年，你看到了第一位阿根廷冠军。

And what you then have is in 1913, you have the first Argentinian champion.

在此之前，冠军一直由英裔球队包揽。

So you'd had Anglo champions all the way through.

1913年，拉辛俱乐部赢得了冠军。

1913, Rassin Club wins the title.

这在象征意义上正是正确的时刻，因为正是在这一时刻，英国开始从阿根廷撤退，第一次世界大战来临，阿根廷开始掌控自己的事务。

It's absolutely the right moment symbolically because this is the moment at which Britain begins to retreat from Argentina and the coming of the first world war and Argentina takes control of its own affairs.

大约在同一时期，阿根廷展开了关于‘阿根廷性’的盛大讨论：什么是阿根廷人？

And you have at around that time this huge discussion in Argentina of Chaois Acantinidad, what is it to be Argentinian?

因此，阿根廷二十世纪初的伟大诗人之一利奥波尔多·卢戈内斯，于1912年就这一主题发表了一系列演讲。

So Leopoldo Lugones, one of the great poets of the early twentieth century in Argentina, gives a series of lectures in 1912 on exactly the subject, Chaois Acantinidad.

从足球的角度看，这之所以令人着迷，是因为在这样一个庞大而多元的新兴国家中，足球几乎是唯一能凝聚人心的事物——这个国家的原住民群体在十九世纪末的一系列种族灭绝战争中几乎被彻底消灭。

The reason why this is fascinating from a football point of view is that one of the very few things that unifies this great disparate nation, a new nation, the indigenous populations essentially wiped out in a series of genocidal wars in the late nineteenth century.

而随着第一次世界大战的爆发，你观察阿根廷的人口构成：一百万西班牙人、八十万意大利人、四十万非欧洲犹太人、四十万阿拉伯人、四万德国人、三万法国人、三万英国和爱尔兰人，他们全都来自截然不同的地方，对生活有着完全不同的理念。

And the beginning of the first world war, you look at the makeup of Argentina and it's a million Spaniards, 800,000 Italians, 400,000 non European Jews, 400,000 Arabs, 40,000 Germans, 30,000 French, 30,000 British and Irish, all from very different places, very different ideas of what life should be.

但他们一致认同的是：当身穿蓝白条纹球衣的国家队对阵智利、乌拉圭或巴西时，他们都希望球队获胜。

But what they all agree on is that when the team, the blue and white stripes plays a football match against Chile or Uruguay or Brazil, they want them to win.

大概背后也隐含着一种与英国文化划清界限的意图。

Presumably also hovering in the back is a way of asserting cultural independence from England.

不，这甚至不是背景问题。

Well, not even in the background.

完全处于最前沿。

Mean, absolutely in the foreground.

再次强调，许多关于足球国家风格的讨论，我认为可能有些牵强。

Again, this is what a lot of talk about national styles of football, I think, can be a little bit tenuous.

对于阿根廷来说，这绝对是核心。

With Argentina, it is absolutely central.

首先，足球是英国传入的。

To begin with, football is a British import.

因此，赢得冠军对阿根廷来说是一个巨大的时刻，表明：我们虽然早在1816年就从西班牙独立了，但这是某种新的独立。

So wrestling winning the title is a huge moment for Argentina saying, Okay, we had our independence from Spain in 1816, but this is some kind of new independence.

而关于高乔民族性的这一问题则颇具争议，因为高乔人是控制潘帕斯大草原上庞大牛群的牛仔。

And then this question of Keyes Acuintinidad is problematic because Laguna is located in the Gaucho, the cowboy who's controlling the great herds of cattle across the Pampas.

你可以理解为什么这具有吸引力。

And you can see why that's attractive.

高乔人是一个非常浪漫的形象。

The Gaucho is this very romantic figure.

他拥有非凡的技艺，却孤身一人，勇敢无畏，与自然力量抗争。

He has this great virtuosity, but he's solitary, he's brave, he's battling the elements.

但问题是，到1912年高乔文化已经消亡，而这一切都是英国人造成的。

But the problem is the Gaucho culture is dead by 1912 and the British have killed it.

英国人引进了铁丝。

The British import wire.

一旦有了铁丝围栏，就不需要高乔人了。

As soon as you have wire fences, you don't need a Gaucho.

因此，19世纪中前期高乔人的政治影响力，被一个名叫亨利·牛顿的人摧毁了，他带来了铁丝。

So the political clout of a Gaucho in the early to mid nineteenth century is destroyed by a man called Henry Newton who brings in wire.

后来，当二十到三十年后倒刺铁丝出现时，显然更有利于把牛群控制在正确的地方。

Then when you get barbed wire twenty or thirty years later, that's obviously even better for keeping your cows in the right place.

所以阿根廷文学的伟大史诗《马丁·菲耶罗》于19世纪70年代分两卷出版。

So the great epic of Argentinian literature is Martin Fiera, which is published in two volumes in the 1870s.

这本书恰好诞生于高乔文化即将终结之际。

It's really right at the end of the Gaucho period.

我的意思是，我认为这部作品对高乔文化持一种矛盾的态度，但当然人们实际上并不去读它。

I mean, I think it's quite an ambivalent work about Gaucho culture, but of course people don't actually read it.

他们只是喜欢高乔人的形象。

They just like the idea of a gaucho.

所以在20世纪10年代末到20年代初，布宜诺斯艾利斯出现了高乔俱乐部，人们穿着他们想象中高乔人的装束，参加盛大的烤肉聚会。

So you find in the late 1910s and early 1920s, you get gaucho clubs in Buenos Aires where people dress and their idea of what a gaucho would look like and they go to these huge asados, the huge barbecues.

是的，烤肉——烧烤肉类——至今仍是阿根廷社交生活的重要组成部分。

Yeah, the asados, grilling meat is still an enormous part of Argentinian social life.

你还会看到博尔赫斯和阿道夫·博尔赫萨雷斯等人公开嘲笑这种做法。

You get people like Borges and Adolfo Borgesares who openly laugh at this.

真正的高乔人不会穿成这样。

A gaucho wouldn't have dressed like this.

你穿得像鲁道夫·瓦伦蒂诺。

You're dressed as Rudolf Valentino.

你根本不是在扮高乔人。

You're not dressed as a gaucho.

在日益城市化的社会中，人们意识到高乔人已经没有立足之地，这显得有些荒谬。

There's a recognition this is vaguely preposterous in an increasingly urban society that the gaucho has no place.

那么，高乔人的这种精神在哪里能找到呢？

So where can you find that spirit of a gaucho?

它存在于拉普拉塔河畔，在街头小混混身上。

And it's found in the P Bay, in the urchin of the street.

在20世纪20年代极具影响力和成功的体育杂志《图形报》上，出现了一系列文章，指出阿根廷足球协会（PBA）的踢球方式，某种意义上代表了阿根廷的灵魂。

And you get a series of articles in El Graphico, a hugely successful influential sports magazine through the 1920s, pointing out that the PBA and the way the PBA plays football, that is somehow representative of the soul of Argentina.

这显然与英国形成对立，因为足球在阿根廷是由英国人通过学校传播的。

And this is clearly in opposition to Britain because football is propagated by the British in Argentina was through the schools.

它发生在那些广阔的草地上。

It's on these great grassy playing fields.

它关乎奔跑和力量。

It's about running and about strength.

那里有一位老师带着哨子，以防情况失控来维持秩序。

You have a teacher there with a whistle if things get out of hand to control things.

Pee Bay在城市扩张中的空地上，于波特雷罗踢球。

The Pee Bay playing on the Potrero on vacant lot of the growing city.

他在这片坚硬不平的地面上踢球。

He's playing on this hard uneven surface.

可能只有二十到三十人，在一个狭小的场地上比赛。

It's maybe twenty, thirty aside on a tiny pitch.

你必须能够控制住球。

You've got to be able to control the ball.

你需要具备精湛的技术。

You've to have technical virtuosity.

你必须能够保护好自己。

You've got to be able to look after yourself.

你需要具备这种街头智慧的特质。

You've to have this streetwise character.

那里没有拿着哨子的老师来在情况失控时制止一切。

There's no teacher there with a whistle to stop things when they get out hand.

你得学会照顾自己。

You've got be able to look after yourself.

你得有锋利的肘子。

You've got to have sharp elbows.

所以，Pee Bay变成了新的高乔人。

So the Pee Bay becomes the new Gaucho.

所以这是一个城市环境中的高乔人。

So it's a Gaucho in an urban environment.

这是马拉多纳，对吧？

This is Maradona, right?

我的意思是，这是——

Mean, this is-

到了1928年，你就会看到博布·科特尔那篇著名的社论，就像大多数伟大的阿根廷人、乌拉圭人一样，他是《图形报》的编辑。

Then you get in 1928, you get the famous editorial by Bob Cottle, like most great Argentinians, Uruguayan, the editor of El Grafico.

他写了一篇文章说：如果你要为阿根廷足球的精神立一座雕像，那应该是皮巴伊，他那一头狂野的黑发，牙齿因吃昨天的面包而磨平，背心被关怀的鼠类啃得千疮百孔。

He writes this piece saying, If you erect a statue to the spirit of Argentinian football, it's the pibay with his mane of untamed black hair, his teeth worn down by eating yesterday's bread, his vest eaten away by the mice of care.

你知道他脸上带着一种狡黠的微笑，眼神中闪烁着光芒，如果你用这样的描述去问别人这是谁，100%的人都会说是迭戈·马拉多纳，而这是马拉多纳首次代表国家队出场前四十九年的事。

And you know he had a picaresque smile on his face, a twinkle in his eye, and if you gave somebody that description of who is this, 100% of people would say it's Diego Maradona, and this is forty nine years before Maradona makes his national debut.

这就是为什么马拉多纳自带这种气质。

And that's why Maradona comes with this.

他带着一种预言般的力量而来。

He comes with a force of prophecy.

他是回应以西结召唤的基督。

He is Christ answering Ezekiel's call.

我觉得该换裁判了，我听到裁判的哨声了。

Think it's time for the ref I hear the referee's whistle.

我们休息一下，稍后回来，换边继续，看看下半场会发生什么。

Let's have let's have a break, we'll come back and change ends and see what the second half brings.

这是一档分两部分的播客。

Well, it's a podcast of two halves.

欢迎回到《历史其余部分》。

Welcome back to The Rest is History.

我们正在与足球作家兼历史学家乔纳森·威尔逊交谈。

We're talking to football writer and historian Jonathan Wilson.

让我们转向现代足球及其作为全球运动的地位。

Let's pivot to the modern game and its place as a global sport.

我们这里有一个来自布鲁诺·莱特尔的问题。

We've got a question here from Bruno Leiter.

当足球被世界各地玩的时候，我们能否说世界正在对我们文化进行文化挪用？

Can we say the world is culturally appropriating our culture when football is played?

这是在开玩笑。

Brackets joking.

足球是我们献给世界最伟大的礼物吗？

Is football our greatest gift to the world?

这次不是在开玩笑。

Brackets not joking.

我的意思是，很难再找到比这更强大的英国软实力工具了。

I mean, it's it's hard to think of any greater tool of British soft power.

很难想到还有哪项英国发明能被如此多的国家和文化所接纳。

It's hard to think of any British invention that's been taken on by so many different countries and so many different cultures.

当然，英超联赛在收视率和转播权方面，远远领先于世界其他联赛。

And of course, the Premier League is by a long way the most successful league in the world in terms of viewership and in terms of TV rights.

但它真的还算是英格兰的联赛吗？

But is it really an English league anymore?

很多球员不是英国人，很多教练不是英国人，很多俱乐部老板也不是英国人，很多观众也不是英国人。

A lot of the players aren't British, a lot of the managers aren't British, a lot of the club owners aren't British, and a lot of the viewers aren't British.

这实际上给我们带来了一个棘手的矛盾：到底什么才是足球俱乐部？

And that actually presents us with quite a difficult tension as to what is a football club.

我从小在桑德兰长大，是桑德兰队的球迷。

I grew up in Sunderland, I'm a Sunderland fan.

桑德兰是我与二十三年前离开的家乡之间关系的体现。

Sunderland is an expression of my relationship with a home I left twenty three years ago.

我和父亲的关系几乎完全是通过足球建立的。

My relationship with my dad was almost entirely conducted through football.

我们唯一一起做的事情就是去看足球比赛。

It was the one thing we did together was to go and watch football.

我现在为什么还要回到东北部？

Why do I go back to the Northeast now?

是为了见朋友，然后去看足球比赛。

It's to see mates and go and watch football.

如果没足球比赛，我可能就不会去见那些朋友了。

And if a football wasn't there, I probably wouldn't go and see those mates.

对我来说，我怀疑许多在英格兰或英国北部小城镇长大的人也是如此，足球是我们理解自己与家乡关系的一种方式。

So for me, and I suspect many other people who grew up in provincial northern towns in England or Britain, football is a way of processing our relationship with our homes.

这是我们身份中非常深刻的一部分，而且赢得任何东西都比以往任何时候都更难。

It's a very profound part of our identity and worse on than ever to win anything.

我们录制这段内容时，距离一场重要杯赛决赛只剩下两天，这可不是什么小打小闹的赛事，也不是只属于小球队的。

As we record this, we're two days from a Major Cup final, which isn't just some tin pot little thing, it's only for small teams.

这是其中一项荣誉奖杯之类的。

It's one of the paint trophies or something.

那是什么？

What is it?

是樱桃奖杯。

It's cherry trade.

你居然这样贬低巴克莱杯，我简直不敢相信。

I can't believe you demean the Papa John's trophy like that.

所以有一部分我想说，足球属于围绕俱乐部成长起来的社区。

So part of me wants to say, football is for the community that's grown up around the club.

许多俱乐部都在自己的社区里做了大量有益的社会工作。

A lot of clubs do a lot of great social work in their own communities.

但与此同时，我真能对那个从五六岁起就熬夜看心爱的曼联的班加罗尔孩子说吗？

But at the same time, can I really turn around to the kid in Bangalore who has grown up from the age of five or six, going to bed late at night to watch his beloved Manchester United, and he saves up a little bit every week?

他每周省下一点钱，直到三十岁才攒够钱去老特拉福德看一场曼联对伯恩利的比赛。

And eventually when he's 30, he can afford his trip to go to Old Trafford to watch Manchester United one, Burnley one.

我真能说，他对曼联的支持权利或归属感，就比我低吗？

Can I really say that his right to support United or his sense of affiliation is any less than mine?

我真的不认为你能这么说。

I don't really think you can say that.

我认为这引出了许多有趣的问题，但其中一个

I think this raises so many interesting questions, but one of

这正是全球化问题的核心所在，对吧？

the It's points you get in the nub of the issue of globalization, right?

确实是。

It is.

但关于时间线这一点。

But one on the chronology though.

我的意思是，我们都差不多在同一个时代长大，大概是七十年代到八十年代初，那时英格兰足球普遍被认为正在走向衰落。

I mean, we all grew up at the same time, roughly, sort of seventies, early eighties, at a point when English football was widely thought to be dying.

而实际上，当我写关于七十年代、八十年代英国的历史时，我常常惊讶于它竟然没有彻底垮掉，因为观众人数一直在急剧下滑。

And actually having written about seventies, eighties Britain, you know, writing the story, it it often surprises me that it that it didn't because attendances were in free fall.

当时，足球在公众心目中——不仅在英国，而且在全球范围内——几乎完全与暴力流氓行为联系在一起。

The game was associated overwhelmingly in the public mind, not just in Britain, but around the world with hooliganism.

你知道，英格兰队在一场又一场比赛中因球迷暴力行为而丢尽颜面。

You know, England disgraced themselves at tournament after tournament with the hooligan behavior.

英格兰球迷一次又一次地让自己蒙羞。

English fans disgraced themselves again and again.

我们在1985年被禁止参加欧洲赛事。

We're banned from Europe in 1985.

在那时，如果你是个赌徒，你会说这项运动已经没救了。

And at that point, I mean, if you were a betting man, you would say this is a dead sport.

这是一项维多利亚时代的运动，诞生于工业时代、教会世界和肌肉基督教，而这些都已经消逝了，它凭什么能延续下去？

It's a Victorian sport, born in industry, in the world of the church, in muscular Christianity, all of which have gone, why will it endure?

实际上，问题在于，它为什么能延续下来？

And actually the question is, why did it endure?

它为什么没有消亡？

Why didn't it die?

是的。

Yeah.