34. 圣卡斯伯特日

你好，欢迎来到《余下皆历史》。

Hello, and welcome to the rest is history.

当我同意和汤姆·荷兰德一起做这个播客时，我最担心的是，某个周六早上，我会被拖出被窝，去讨论一位鲜为人知的中世纪圣人。

When I agreed to do this podcast with Tom Holland, the one thing I dreaded was that on a Saturday morning, I'd be dragged out of bed to do a podcast about some obscure medieval saint.

果然不出所料，我们今天这期特别的《余下皆历史》播客，正是关于圣卡斯伯特的一生。

And lo and behold, that's precisely what we're doing in this special rest is history podcast about the life of Saint Cuthbert.

好了，汤姆，请你给我解释一下。

Now, Tom, please He's not explain to me.

他可不是什么无名小卒的圣人。

He's not an obscure saint.

他是诺森布里亚的主保圣人，我认为大多数人——包括我自己——都觉得他才真正配得上英格兰主保圣人的称号。

He's the patron saint of Northumbria, and I think that most people, me, myself included, think that he should properly be the patron saint of England.

今天是他的圣徒纪念日，这可是件大事。

So it's big news that today is his saint's day.

他去世的日子就是卡斯伯特日。

He he died Cuthbert's day.

是的

Yeah.

今天是圣卡斯伯特日。

This is Saint Cuthbert's day.

他去世已经一千三百三十四年了。

He died one thousand three hundred and thirty four years ago.

也就是公元687年3月20日。

So that's AD six eight seven, on the March 20.

一个重要的周年纪念。

A landmark anniversary.

重要的周年纪念。

Landmark anniversary.

而且

And

我觉得这是个重要的日子。

I think it's a big day.

这是我一年中最喜欢的日子之一。

It's it's one of the favorite my favorite days of the year.

这原本是个玩笑，是的。

And it's it started off as a joke that Yeah.

乔纳森·威尔逊，我们最近的播客中邀请过他，谈到了足球。

Jonathan Wilson, who we had on our our most recent podcast talking about football

足球真棒，老兄。

Great football, man.

听过那期节目的人可能会从他的口音中听出他是东北人，而圣卡斯伯特也同样来自东北。

Those who've who've listened to it will perhaps recognize from his accent that he's a man of the Northeast, and Cuthbert was likewise a man of the Northeast.

于是我们养成了和乔纳森以及几位朋友聚会的习惯，来庆祝圣卡斯伯特，为他干杯纪念。

And so we we got into the habit of of meeting with Jonathan and a few friends to to celebrate Saint Cuthbert, to to to toast his memory.

这已经成为一种年度惯例。

And it's become a kind of annual occurrence.

事实上，我今年想办这个活动的原因之一是，去年我们庆祝圣卡斯伯特日的活动是第一个被新冠封锁取消的事情。

And, actually, one of the reasons that I wanted to do it this year was that last year, our celebration of Saint Cuthbert's Day was the first thing that got kiboshed by the lockdown by the COVID Yes.

而且这实际上真的让我第一次感觉到，天啊。

And it kinda it actually really it it it really kind of that was the first time that I felt, oh god.

这事儿要变得奇怪了。

This is gonna be weird.

一方面是因为我错过了它，另一方面是因为圣卡斯伯特生活在瘟疫肆虐的时代。

Both because I missed it, but also because Cuthbert was a was a saint who lived in a time of terrible plague.

关于他生平的记载数不胜数。

The the the accounts of his life are endlessly.

这几乎被视为理所当然。

It's kind of taken for granted.

只要他一出现，瘟疫就会爆发。

He'll turn up and a plague is raging.

人们会因此死去。

People will die of it.

他拥有非凡的治愈能力，近乎超自然的治愈力，但他也带来了安慰与关怀。

And he brought incredible healing powers, kind of supernatural healing powers, but he also brought kind of comfort and concern.

所以

So

好的。

Alright.

我们来谈谈细节吧。

Let's get let's get to the nitty gritty.

我们现在处于哪个世纪？故事大致是怎样的？

What century are we in, and what's the story, basically?

我们身处七世纪，地点在北安普顿。

We're in the seventh century, and we're in Northampton.

那时还没有英格兰王国。

This is before the kingdom of England.

当时，后来成为英格兰的地区被多个相互竞争的盎格鲁-撒克逊王国瓜分。

This is when what will become England is divided up among rival Anglo Saxon kingdoms.

我们正在

We are

在诺森布里亚王国。

in the the kingdom of Northumbria.

是的。

Yeah.

这是一个基督教从爱尔兰和罗马同时传入的时代。

And it's a time when Christianity has come both from Ireland and from Rome.

所以这是

So it's

维京时代之前。

pre Viking.

维京人尚未兴起。

Vikings have been lifted up.

这是维京时代之前。

It's it's pre Viking.

所以这是一个旧神祇逐渐退隐的时期。

So it's it's it's a period when the old gods are kind of retreating.

事实上，在比德对库思伯特的记载中，有这样一些

And in fact, in Bede's account of of Cuthbert, there's this kind

惊人的细节：一些修士正划船穿过河口，

of amazing detail where some monks are sailing out across the across the mouth of

突然风起，把他们吹向了大海。

the tine, and the wind blows up and starts blowing them out to sea.

岸边的一群年轻人开始大笑，

And a bunch of lads on the shore all start laughing as

这很正常。

As they would.

这正是当时的情景，我想。

As they it's yeah.

这可以说是黑暗时代的真实写照，我想。

It's kind of dark ages viz, I guess.

是的。

Yeah.

库思伯特对他们说，你们知道吗，你们为什么要这样做？

And Cuthbert says to them, you know, why are you doing this?

这些可怜的人会被卷到海里丧命的。

These poor guys are going to be swept to their deaths.

他们回答说，我们不在乎，因为这些修士正在驱逐我们的神明，我们也不知道接下来该做什么了。

And they say, well, we we don't care because these these monks are are banishing our gods, and we don't know what we're meant to do anymore.

库思伯特跪下来祈祷，奇迹发生了，风向变了，修士们被吹回了岸边。

And Kuthbert kneels down and he prays, and miraculously, the wind changes and the monks are are swept back in.

但这里隐约透露出棺材真正代表的意义——一种变革，一个变革的过程，即基督教的引入，好吧。

But there's a glimpse there of of what coff coffin actually represents, which is a kind of a revolution, a process of revolution, the introduction of Christianity, both Okay.

来自爱尔兰和来自罗马。

From Ireland and from Rome.

所以这种混合，但感觉起来是激进的。

So this kind of mix, but it's it's felt as radical.

但你在库思伯特的生平中看到的，正是基督教为何有效的原因，为什么

But what you can what you see in the life of Cuthbert is why Christianity works, why

它安顿下来。

it beds down.

那么他是谁？

So who is he?

他出生在哪里？

Where's he born?

讽刺的是，这位后来与新兴的英格兰王国联系在一起的人，实际上出生在如今的苏格兰。

He well well, ironically, for a man who who comes to be associated with with the emergent kingdom of England, he's actually born in what is now Scotland.

他是苏格兰人。

He's a Scot.

他是苏格兰人。

He's a Scot.

他是诺森布里亚人，因为诺森布里亚王国的疆域一直延伸到福斯湾。

A Northumbrian because, of course, the the kingdom of Northumbria reached all the way up to the Firth Of Forth.

好的。

Okay.

所以他可能出生在梅尔罗斯附近，或者邓巴，大概就是那样的地方。

So he's perhaps born in the vicinity of Melrose, perhaps Dunbar, somewhere around, like somewhere that.

他似乎出身于贵族家庭。

He seems to have been of aristocratic background.

他被描述为一个喜欢运动的年轻男孩。

He's he's he's described as a a a young boy who enjoyed his sport.

哦，我知道。

So Oh, know.

当然，像你这样的体育爱好者会对此产生共鸣。

Of course, sportsmen like you will will empathize with that.

嗯，加鲁斯，你在想，对吧？东北地区伟大的体育传统，因为我们已经请过丹·杰克逊谈过这个话题。

Well, Garrus, kinda thinking, you know, the the the grand sporting tradition of the Northeast, because we've had both we've we've had Dan Jackson talking about that.

杰基·米伯恩。

Jackie Milburn.

之前的。

Previous.

是的

Yeah.

卡瑟伯特

Cuthbert.

博比·查尔顿

Bobby Charlton.

卡瑟伯特被描述为参与了一种球类运动。

And Cuthbert is described as playing a ball game.

所以可能是足球，也可能是板球。

So maybe may probably football, maybe cricket.

谁知道呢？

Who knows?

谁也说不准。

Who can't say.

非常好。

Very good.

但是但是

But but

他显然是一个类似加泽尔式的年轻小伙子。

he was he was he was clearly a a kind of Gazeresque young young man.

这并不是一个比较。

That's not a comparison.

这是预期之中的。

Was expected.

但是

But

然后，但他经历了一种转变。

And and and then but then he has a kind of a conversion.

对，没错。

And Right.

他看到天使降临的异象，一道强光，然后一个身影升向天空。

And what he he sees a vision of angels descending and a great beam of light and then a a figure rising up to the sky.

这个人物，他后来得知是圣艾丹，一位在林迪斯法恩岛上建立修道院的爱尔兰修士。

And this figure, he subsequently learns is is is saint Aidan, an Irish monk who has founded a monastery on an island called Lindisfarne

位于北海的林迪斯法恩。

off the North Lindisfarne.

这在当时应该广为人知。

That'll be very well known to

库思伯特决定将自己的一生奉献给基督，于是他来到梅尔罗斯修道院。

And and Cuthbert decides that he is going to devote his life to Christ, and he turns up at priory of of Melrose.

我们再次从比德那里得知，他带着长矛、骑着马前来。

And we're told again by Bede that he arrives with a spear and on a horse.

这表明他实际上出身颇为显赫。

So that suggests that actually he's a he's quite well born.

所以，或者他为什么带着长矛？

So or that he's why has he got a spear?

他是个士兵吗？

Is he a soldier?

还是人们只是随身携带长矛？

Or do people just carry spear?

年龄。

Age.

这是一个瘟疫和战争的时代。

Is a It's an age of plague, and it's an age of war.

而库思伯特通过放弃他的马、放弃他的长矛，本质上成为了基督的仆人。

And Cuthbert, by abandoning his his horse, by abandoning his spear, is is essentially becoming a slave of Christ.

好吧。

And Okay.

他放弃了自己阶级的所有特权。

He casts off all the privileges of his class.

他过着极其苦修的生活。

He lives an incredibly ascetic life.

嗯。

Mhmm.

这是一个在深夜走进北海、站在齐颈深的海水中祈祷，然后在清晨寒风呼啸中回到岸上的人。

This is a man who, in the middle of the night, goes down into the North Sea, stands up to his neck praying, comes back up as the chill wind is whipping off the North Sea in the early dawn.

尼尔，等一下。

Neil, hold on.

北方人会在新年之类的日子去这么干吗？

Is that what people in the North do on, like, New Year's Day and stuff?

他们确实会去。

They go for They do.

为了展示他们的坚韧。

To show up their hardiness.

但他们只是短暂地泡一下，并不会在齐颈深的海水中站上好几个小时。

But they they go for dips, but they don't stand for hours at an end up to their neck.

但这里有一个美妙的细节：当库斯伯特站在岸边时，海獭会游过来，用身体温暖他的双脚，然后悄然潜回海里。

But we're there's this wonderful detail, however, that as Cuthbert is is standing on the shore, sea otters come and they warm his feet, and then they slip back into the sea.

这正是关于库斯伯特的众多动人细节之一

And this is kinda one of the wonderful details about Cuthbert that

这有点奇怪。

That's just a bit weird.

这确实有点奇怪。

This is a that's a bit weird.

但更重要的是，库斯伯特是个能看到天使的人。

Well, but but there's a lot more that that Cuthbert is a man who he sees angels.

是的。

He Yeah.

他能治愈病人。

He can heal the sick.

他能扑灭火焰。

He can banish fire.

他能让风转向，并与自然界沟通。

He can make the wind turn, and he communes with the natural world.

所以海獭会来温暖他的脚。

So sea otters come and warm his feet.

当饥饿时，老鹰会为他带来鱼。

Eagles bring him fish when he's hungry.

他能通过鸟类飞行的模式理解事物。

He he he he can understand things from the pattern of the flying of the birds.

事实上，如果你想要一个类似甘道夫或梅林的原型。

And the the truth is that if you want a model for, say, Gandalf Or Merlin.

梅林。

Merlin.

是的。

Yeah.

一个拥有惊人力量的人，这种力量实际上比他若继续当战士时还要强大。

A man who has an an incredible power that is actually greater than that that he would have had if he'd remained a warrior.

好的。

Okay.

但让我打断一下，汤姆。

But let me interrupt you, Tom.

那么，你这些信息都是从哪儿来的？

So where where are we getting where are you getting all this stuff from?

我的意思是，这些圣徒的生平是修道士记录下来的吗？还是属于编年史？

I mean, how do we is this sort of saints' lives written down by monks, or is it a chronicle?

或者你到底确切知道些什么？

Or what exactly is it that you know?

这些记载是当时写下的，还是后人很久以后编造的传说？

And was it written at the time, or is this some fable told long afterwards?

所以，这也是为什么我觉得在这个播客里讲这个特别棒的原因。

The so this is another reason why I thought it would be great to do it on this podcast.

因为从某种意义上说，这正是这个播客、其他历史类播客，以及写历史的人们所传承的传统所在。

Because in a sense, this is where the tradition that that this podcast and other history podcasts and people who write about history and

是的。

Yeah.

我喜欢这个播客现在已经形成了一种传统。

I like the fact this podcast has a tradition now.

确实如此。

It does.

因为本质上，这一切都始于这一点。

Because because, essentially, it it it begins with this.

因为写过这件事的人之一是比德。

Because the the one of the guys who writes about it is Bede.

比德撰写了第一部关于你可能称之为英格兰人的群体的伟大历史。

And Bede writes the first great history of of what you might call the English people.

比德还撰写了库思伯特的生平，但在开篇他就明确说明，他对此进行了研究，曾与认识库思伯特的人交谈过，这些是他记录下来的活态传统。

And Bede writes this life of of Cuthbert, but he's and he specifies in his opening to it that he has researched it, that he's spoken to people who knew Cuthbert, and that these are are living traditions that he's writing down.

还有一部更早的生平，显然出自一位非常了解库思伯特的人之手。

And there's another there's a there's another life as well, which is earlier, which is also clearly written by someone who knew Cuthbert quite well.

我认为令人深思的是，那些轶事和故事中透出的明显真实性。

And I think what's what's haunting about it is the sense of of kind of anecdotes and stories that have that that they're clearly true.

显然有一些关于库思伯特的记忆，被反复讲述和传颂。

There's clearly some kind that that there are memories that are are told of Cuthbert that have been kind of retold and retold.

所以有一个故事。

So there's a story.

因此，库思伯特与成为修道院院长的王室女性关系密切。

So Cuthbert is closely associated with royal women who have become abbesses.

好的。

Okay.

所以这是一个女性同样拥有非凡神圣力量的时期。

So so this is so so so this is a a period in which women have incredible sacral power as well.

她们通常是诺森布里亚王室的公主。

They're generally princesses of of the royal Northumbrian household.

其中有一位名叫奥夫拉德的女性，名字非常出色。

And there's one who has the brilliant name, Auflad.

她是惠特比修道院的院长，前来与库思伯特会面，库思伯特与她一同就座用餐，尽管他几乎没吃什么东西。

And she is the abbess of Whitby, and she she comes to meet with Cuthbert, and and Cuthbert sits down at table with her, although he he barely eats anything.

他极其苦修。

He's incredibly ascetic.

当他们围坐在餐桌旁时，据说他突然陷入了一种奇怪的发作状态。

And as they're sitting at table, we're told, he suddenly has a kind of he goes has a strange fit.

他坐在那里，所有人都盯着他，用手在他眼前打手势。

He he sits there, and everyone's kind of staring at him, snapping their fingers in front of his eyes.

没有任何反应。

Nothing happens.

然后他从恍惚中醒来，问道：‘发生什么事了？’

And then he wakes up from his trance, and says, what's going on?

他说：‘我刚才看到你们修道院里有个人升上了天堂。’

And he says, someone I I I was watching someone in your abbey going up to heaven.

我看见天使降临，接走他的灵魂，带他升入天堂。

I saw angels come and collect his soul and take it up to heaven.

阿尔弗雷德问：‘那你知道是谁吗？’

And Alfred says, well, you know, who?

库思伯特说：‘等明天我主持弥撒时，我会告诉你的。’

And Cuthbert says, you will tell me tomorrow when I am celebrating mass.

于是阿尔弗雷德派出了信使，得知死去的是一个牧羊人。

And so Alfred sends off a messenger, gets told that it's a shepherd who's died.

当塞瑟伯特正在举行弥撒时，他到了为已故之人祈祷的环节。

And as Cuthbert is celebrating Mass, he comes to the point where you remember those who've died.

奥夫莱德冲进来喊道：‘就是这个牧羊人！’，塞瑟伯特便为他重新祈祷。

Auflade bursts in, says, it's this shepherd, and Cuthbert re commemorates him.

因此，令人印象深刻的是，塞瑟伯特与一位出身高贵的诺森布里亚王室成员之间竟有如此亲密的联系。

So what's striking about that is both the intimacy that Cuthbert has with a very, very high born Northumbrian royal Yeah.

但同样令人注意的是，他们谈论的竟是一位牧羊人。

But also the fact that they are talking about a shepherd.

很难过分强调，高阶层人士通常根本不会关心牧羊人的死亡。

And it's hard to overemphasize the degree to which people of high status generally are not bothered with the death of shepherds.

因此，你可以清楚地看到，这种安慰的力量，以及为什么基督教能如此迅速地扎根。

And so you can see exactly that both the power of comfort, but also why Christianity puts down roots so quickly.

它既为精英阶层、为王室成员提供了东西。

It has something for for the elites, for for those who are royal.

是的。

Yeah.

但它也为那些贫穷的人提供了东西。

But it also has something for those who are those who are poor.

我们一再得知，尽管库思伯特赢得了那些有权势之人的尊重，但他心中始终惦记着那些贫穷、受苦的人，他总是关心如何治愈他们、给予他们食物和庇护，等等。

And we're told again and again that although Cuthbert commands the respect of those who are very powerful, he also always has in his mind those who are those who are poor, those who are suffering, and he is always concerned to make sure that they you know, he he can heal them, give them food, give them shelter, whatever.

所以我认为，他是一位深受爱戴的人。

So he he's he's a very loved man, I think.

不过，这在多大程度上只是因为圣徒传记有既定的模式呢？

How much is this, though, just basically I mean, there were established formulas for saints' lives, weren't there?

所以，这在多大程度上只是重复了圣徒传记的传统模式？

So how much is this just sort of recapping the traditional formulae for saints' lives?

你知道，在早期，历史的早期年代，是遵循固定规则的。

You know, history in in its early years, in its early centuries, followed set rules.

你知道，人们会以特定的方式行事，皇帝、圣徒、主教、国王都是如此。

You know, people behaved in certain ways, emperors, saints, bishops, kings.

是的。

Yep.

库斯伯特有什么不同，还是这只是在沿袭传统的模式？

How is Cuthbert diff is Cuthbert different, or is this just basically following the traditional tram lines?

嗯，库斯伯特是

Well, Cuthbert is

这是一个圣人被赋予惊人力量的时代。

is bread of an age where holy men are vested with an incredible sense of power.

因此，这在前罗马帝国的另一端也是如此。

So this is also, for instance, on the other end of the former Roman empire.

这是穆罕默德的时代。

This is the age of Muhammad.

虽然传统截然不同，但你或许能看到相似的背景框架。

Very kind of different tradition, but you can see bread of the kind of same matrix perhaps.

所以你说得对，确实存在一些特定于基督教传统的模式，而库斯伯特正是这些传统的体现。

And so you're right that there are absolutely kind of traditions specifically within the Christian one that that that Cuthbert embodies.

但我认为，使库斯伯特声誉与众不同的是，正如我之前所说，这些生平显然是出于对他的敬畏与爱而写成的，并且带有个人经历的鲜明印记，这一点在我看来在圣徒传记中是不寻常的。

But I think that that what makes Cuthbert's reputation different is firstly what I was saying, that these lives are clearly written out of a sense of of awe and love for him, and they bear the the definite imprint of personal experiences to to a degree that I think is unusual in saints' lives.

另一点是，这些生平之所以被撰写，是因为库斯伯特在去世后获得了惊人的力量。

And the other thing is that these lives are written because Cuthbert comes to have after after his life in death an incredible potency.

好吧，我们还是在广告之后再谈这个吧。

Well, let's do that after the the break, maybe.

你同意吗？

Do reckon?

我们已经讲过活着的库斯伯特了。

We've done Cuthbert alive.

广告之后再讲。

We'll do after the break.

我们来谈谈他的死亡和死后世界，那是一个精彩的故事。

We'll do his death and his afterlife, which is an amazing story.

在我看来，很多方面甚至比他的生平更有趣。

I I think in many ways, more interesting than his life.

所以，是的

So, yeah,

这将是留给剩余听众期待的内容。

let's That is something that is something for our remaining listeners to look forward to.

我们会在休息后再见。

We'll see you again after the break.

大家好，欢迎收听读书俱乐部，这是来自Goal Hanger的新播客，由我多米尼克·桑布鲁克主持。

Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Book Club, a new podcast from Goal Hanger, hosted by me, Dominic Sambrook.

还有我，塔比莎·赛勒斯。

And me, Tabitha Cyrus.

正如一些听众可能知道的，我一直是多米尼克在《历史其余部分》中的制片人，去年我们还做了一个关于书籍的迷你系列。

As some of you may know, I've been Dominic's producer on The Rest is History, and we even did a miniseries last year about all things books.

由于我们非常享受那次合作，我们决定将其发展为独立节目。

And since we enjoyed that so much, we have decided to roll it out as its own show.

因此，它将每周二更新。

So it'll be coming out every Tuesday.

每次我们会讨论一本不同的书，深入挖掘它们背后的所有故事。

We'll be doing a different book each time and digging into all the stories behind them.

我们将探讨一些有史以来最伟大、最著名书籍背后的历史背景。

And we are gonna be talking about the historical context behind some of the greatest and most famous books of all time.

我们会深入挖掘这些作品背后非凡的人物、故事中的意外情节，同时也会逐步剖析每本书的情节，深入探索故事的深层内涵。

We're gonna be digging into the remarkable people behind them, the unexpected stories behind the stories, and also unraveling the plot of each book a bit and delving into the depths of the story.

你不需要读过这些书就能收听我们的节目，但我们希望，在每一集结束时，你都能假装自己读过它们。

Now you don't have to have read the books to listen to the show, but we hope that by the end of each episode, you will be able to pretend to people that you've read them.

这才是关键。

That is the key thing.

无论你是否读过这些书，我们都希望你能学到许多有趣的事实。

And either way, whether you read them or not, we hope that you'll learn lots of fascinating facts.

你会听到许多精彩的故事，也许还会听到塔比的一些奇怪笑声。

You'll read lots of great stories, and maybe Tabby, the odd laugh.

我们将探讨像《呼啸山庄》和《弗兰肯斯坦》这样惊悚的哥特式爱情小说，以及像《了不起的盖茨比》或《小妇人》这样的经典作品。

We will be looking at thrilling gothic bodice rippers like Wuthering Heights and Frankenstein, as well as iconic stories like The Great Gatsby or Little Women.

还有一些更现代的作品。

And then also some more modern stuff.

比如《权力的游戏》《普通人》《饥饿游戏》《哈姆内特》，各种精彩的故事。

So Game of Thrones, Normal People, The Hunger Games, Hamnet, all manner of exciting stories.

所以，请无论你在哪个平台收听播客，都加入我们这场关于书籍的旅程吧。

So please join us on our journey into all things books wherever you get your podcasts.

只需搜索每周二的‘读书会’，希望能在那儿见到你。

Just search for the book club every Tuesday, and hopefully, we will see you there.

欢迎回到《历史其余部分》。

Welcome back to The Rest is History.

我们正在讨论圣卡斯伯特的一生。

We are discussing the life of Saint Cuthbert.

今天是圣卡斯伯特日。

It is Saint Cuthbert's day.

汤姆·霍兰德充满热情。

Tom Holland is brimming with enthusiasm.

我们一直在谈论活着的圣卡斯伯特，汤姆。

We've been talking about Saint Cuthbert alive, Tom.

所以圣卡斯伯特去世了，这正是故事变得精彩的地方，对吧？关于圣卡斯伯特的死亡。

So Saint Cuthbert dies, and this is a big this is the really where the story gets juicy, right, with Saint Cuthbert's death.

是的。

Yes.

一个死去的圣人是非常宝贵的资源。

So a dead saint is a very valuable commodity.

卡斯伯特一去世，烽火台就点燃了。

So the moment Cuthbert dies, beacons are lit.

他当时在北海荒野中的一个法尔恩岛上，他的遗体被运到林迪斯法恩，包裹好并埋葬了。

He's he's on a a kind of a farne island out out in the wilds of the North Sea, and his body is brought over to Lindisfarne, wrapped up, buried.

十一年后，修士们打开棺椁，发现他的遗体完好如初。

And eleven years later, the monks look at the body, and it's fully preserved.

奇迹啊。

Miraculous.

这真是奇迹。

That is miraculous.

他们这样做的原因是，所有与库思伯特有关的东西都在施行惊人的奇迹。

And the reason they do that is that everything associated with Cuthbert has been doing amazing miracles.

他的鞋子能治愈病人。

So his shoes cures people.

他的梳子能治愈病人。

His comb cures people.

还有他的权杖，大概也是如此。

And A boldness, presumably.

我确信。

I'm sure.

是的。

Yeah.

这具尸体尤其具有强大的力量。

The the the body is particularly potent.

在接下来的这个世纪里，林迪斯法恩成为了一个重要的朝圣目的地，因为不仅在英格兰，甚至在整个北欧基督教地区，人们都前来圣卡斯伯特的墓地祈祷，因为这就像是一种辉瑞疫苗。

And over the course of the century that follows, it becomes a great object of pilgrimage because not just across England, but across the whole of Northern Christian Northern Europe, people are coming to Lindisfarne to pray at Saint Cuthbert's because it's, you know, it's the kind of equivalent of a Pfizer vaccine.

它就是如此重要。

It's it's that that important.

这可是一段相当艰难的旅程啊，汤姆。

And that's a hell of a journey, Tom.

我的意思是，如果你是从……抱歉。

I mean, if you're coming from I'm sorry.

某件事。

Something.

我的意思是，这简直是一次大规模的远征。

I mean, that's you know, this is like a massive expedition.

你对人数有什么概念吗？

And do you have any sense of numbers?

我的意思是，我们说的是几十人吗？

I mean, are we talking are we talking dozens?

嗯，我们

Well, we

衡量有多少人前来的方式，就是林迪斯法恩变得极其富有。

the the the measure the measurement the measurement of how many people are coming is that Lindisfarne becomes spectacularly rich.

因为每次他们来，都会带来供奉。

Because every time they come, they bring an offering.

没错。

And Right.

于是，这个位于北海之外、偏远而暴露的岛屿，堆满了黄金和珍宝。

So you have this island off the North Sea exposed, distant, absolutely stuffed full of gold and treasure.

当然，在793年，这吸引了来自北海对岸的各位绅士——维京人的注意。

And, of course, in seven nine three, this attracts the attention of various gentlemen from across the North Sea, the Vikings.

维京时代以对林迪斯法恩的劫掠拉开序幕，他们一次又一次地返回。

And the Viking Age begins with the sack of Lindisfarne, And they keep coming back and coming back and coming back.

他们回来是为了抢走库斯伯特的财宝，也就是从朝圣者贸易中积累起来的战利品，对吧。

And they're coming back for Cuthbert's loot, basically, for the loot that's been accumulated, yeah, from the tourist trade.

这一切都变得太多了。

And it all gets too much.

到了八月，距离修道士们厌倦这一切已经将近一个世纪了。

And August, so that's almost a century after the monks are, you know, fed up with this.

于是他们把卡斯伯特的遗体装进棺材，然后运送出去。

And so they they they upload Cuthbert in his coffin, and they transport it.

实际上，他们似乎是在带着遗体走遍了百年来林迪斯法恩修道院陆续获得的各个地方。

And, essentially, what they seem to be doing with that is that they they take it around all the various lands that the monastery of Lindisfarne has come to to to be given over the course of the century.

他们把这具遗体当作一种凭证。

And they're taking the body as a kind of stamp.

所以他们在说：看，就在这里。

So they're they're saying, here, you know, here it is.

这具遗体继续创造着惊人的奇迹。

And this body continues to to do incredible miracles.

有趣的是，它似乎同样让维京人和当地的诺森布里亚人感到震撼。

And what's interesting is that it seems to impress the Vikings as much as as the native Northumbrians.

所以在1983年8月8日，有一位国王。

And so in 08/08/1983, there's a king.

他实际上是个维京奴隶，后来成为了一位名叫古斯雷德的国王。

He's actually formally a slave, a Viking slave, who becomes a king called Guthred.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

我在伯纳德·康威尔的书里读到过他。

I've read about him in Bernard Cornwell.

没错。

That's right.

伯纳德·康威尔以一种怀疑的态度写到了这件事。

So Bernard Cornwell writes about it in in a skeptical way.

但很明显，对所有人来说，卡斯伯特的遗体是最非凡、最令人敬畏的超自然存在。

But but it's evident that that to everyone, Cuthbert's body is just the most remarkable supernatural terrifying thing that there is.

当古斯雷德加冕时，遗体被带到了约克。

And the body gets taken to York when Guthred is crowned.

于是，古斯雷德把提恩河与蒂斯河之间的所有土地都赐予了圣卡斯伯特的遗体。

And Guthred gives all the land between the tie and the tees to the body to to Saint Cuthbert.

赐予遗体？

To the body?

所以，简而言之，在整个九世纪乃至十世纪，统治提恩河与蒂斯河之间土地的，实际上是一具尸体。

So so, basically, for for most of, you know, the the the ninth century and into the tenth century, the guy who is ruling the lands between the Tyne and the Tees is a dead body.

那就是圣卡斯伯特。

It's Saint Cuthbert.

布伦特。

Brent.

任何敢冒犯圣卡斯伯特的维京人都会落得悲惨下场。

Any Viking any Viking who gives Saint Cuthbert shit comes to a horrible end.

有一个维京人试图闯入位于切斯特街古罗马堡垒内设立的圣龛。

So there is one Viking who tries to break into in in into the shrine that's been set up at Chestnut Street, old Roman Fort.

是的。

Yeah.

地面突然裂开，那个维京人被吞了进去，直接下地狱了。

And the floor opens, and the Viking gets swallowed up and and goes to hell.

从那以后，人们再也不敢给圣卡斯伯特找麻烦了。

And so after that, you know, people are not gonna give Cuthbert any grief.

哇哦。

Wow.

这意味着，在十世纪初，一具尸体或许是最重要的领主。

And so what that means is that a dead body is perhaps the most significant lord in 10 early tenth

英格兰。

century England.

所以，我可能会想到两个历史上截然不同的类似例子。

So I might think of two really good parallels for that from either ends of the historical spectrum.

其中一个，有些听众可能已经想到了，就是亚历山大大帝的遗体。

So one, which some listeners may have already thought of, is the body of Alexander the Great.

亚历山大大帝在征服了所有领土后去世，随后人们为争夺他的遗体展开了激烈的斗争，对吧？

So Alexander the Great dies, you know, after all his conquests, and then there's a big tussle, isn't it, for his body?

它基本上被他的朋友托勒密偷走，带到了埃及。

It's basically stolen by his his mate, Ptolemy, who takes it to Egypt.

亚历山大的遗体被以各种荣誉和仪式埋葬在埃及亚历山大城，这简直是一种权力合法性的象征，不是吗？

And the body of Alexander, which is sort of in in you know, it's it's buried with all sort of honors and stuff in in in Egypt, in Alexandria, is the sort of badge of legitimacy, isn't it?

遗体是一种权力和合法性的象征。

And bodies were a kind of badge of power and legitimacy.

但我认为亚历山大的遗体并不会行神迹。

Except I don't I don't think that Alexander's body does miracles.

不会。

No.

没错。

That's right.

而关于卡斯伯特，真正特别的是，他是个神吗？

And, really, the the thing with Cuthbert is that it it But he was a god?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

库思伯特甚至不是神。

Cuthbert wasn't even a god.

库思伯特只是一个圣人。

Cuthbert was just a saint.

亚历山大是神。

Alexander was a god.

但库思伯特确实能行奇迹，这就是他权力的根基。

But Cuthbert Cuthbert is is capable of miracles, and therefore, that's the basis of his power.

好的。

Okay.

不过关于亚历山大，有一个很有趣的观点：他的遗体消失的时间，恰好与一支威尼斯船队抵达亚历山大并偷走圣马可遗体的时间相近。

Although interesting with Alexander, I mean, there's this kind of wonderful theory that his body vanishes at around the same time that a a Venetian flotilla arrives in Alexandria and steals the body of Saint Mark.

所以我一直很喜欢这个想法，即圣马可的遗体实际上在威尼斯

So I always love the idea that actually the body of Saint Mark in Venice

那是存放地。

That's the depository.

遗体

The body

亚历山大的遗体，那就太棒了。

of Alexander, which would be wonderful.

这是我的另一个例子。

So here's my other example.

现在，你提到圣卡斯伯特的时候说，他死后遗体奇迹般地保持了完好无损。

Now he now the thing about Saint Cuthbert you were saying was that his body was miraculously preserved, intact after his death.

当然，世界上有一个遗体，一些听众可能见过，那就是另一位革命者的遗体，奇迹般地保存下来，成为国家合法性的象征，那就是列宁。

And, of course, there is a body in the world, which some listeners will have seen, which is miraculously preserved, of another revolutionary who is the sort of badge of legitimacy of a state, and that's Lenin.

你去过列宁墓吗？

Have you been to Lenin's?

你见过列宁吗？

Have you seen Lenin

我去过。

in I have.

是的。

Yes.

我也去过。

I have.

是的。

Yes.

我曾经从它旁边走过。

I've threaded past it.

这很奇怪，对吧？

It's very strange, isn't it?

排队进入那个设计成金字塔形状的陵墓，感觉挺怪异的。

To kinda queue up and go into that mausoleum, which is designed like a pyramid.