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好吧，这真是漫长的一周。
Well, what a week it has been.
多么精彩的一届锦标赛啊。
What a tournament.
在经历了一场首相级体育盛宴之后，我们的思绪不可避免地转向了回顾。
And our thoughts turn inevitably to the retrospective after a feast of prime ministerial sport.
当然，其余的都已成为历史，这是一届首相级的世界杯。
It has, of course, been the rest is history, prime ministerial World Cup.
我和汤姆·赫兰德，多米尼克·桑布鲁克，我认为我们至今仍对一些比赛结果感到震惊，
And Tom Holland and I, Dominic Sambrooke, we're still really in shock, I think, from some of those results,
对吧，汤姆？
aren't we, Tom?
有太多话题可聊了。
So much to talk about.
有太多场比赛我认为将长久留在人们的记忆中。
So many matches that I think will live long in the memory.
我觉得这不仅在于单场比赛的精彩，更在于它揭示了首相体育整个领域的声誉问题。
And I thought fascinating, not just for the kind of individual matches, but for the light that it shone on the whole field of prime ministerial sport, the reputations.
是
Are
我们要一直这样做完整期播客吗？
we gonna do the whole podcast like this?
我们该怎么说呢，历史上的圣徒和格里夫斯。
How are we gonna well, saints and greavesy of history.
好吧，多米尼克，好吧。
Well well, Dominic okay.
嗯嗯嗯，这要看情况，不是吗，多米尼克？
Well well well, that depends, doesn't it, Dominic?
因为这取决于你是否认为，把英国首相们组织成一场假世界杯，然后让人们在推特上投票来评估他们的声誉，是衡量他们声誉的最佳方式。
Because that depends on whether you think that organizing British prime ministers into a a fake World Cup and then having people vote on them on Twitter is the best way to evaluate their reputations.
你觉得这是最好的方式吗？
Do you think it is?
嗯，这是一种方式。
Well, it's a way.
你从来都不是在拿同类做比较，对吧？
Well, you're never comparing like with like, are you?
我的意思是，你根本就从来不是在拿同类做比较。
I mean, you're never comparing like with like anyway.
所以我认为，这当然是一项荒谬的举动，但可以说，它并不比其他那些将罗伯特·沃波尔和……之类的首相进行比较的活动更荒谬。
So I don't think it's of course, it's a ludicrous exercise, but arguably, it's no more ludicrous than all the other exercises that are done comparing, you know, to Robert Warpole and Okay.
克莱门特·艾德礼或者别的什么人。
Clement Attlee or or whatever.
所以你知道吗？
So you know what?
这挺有趣的。
It was fun.
我觉得这很有趣，而且它揭示了特定人群——雅思听众——对我们首相历史的看法。
I thought it was fun, and it was revealing about a particular demographic IELTS listeners and what they think of our prime ministerial history.
所以我确实学到了。
So I did learn it.
我确实从中学到了东西。
I actually did learn from it.
你不是吗？
Didn't you?
好的。
Okay.
是的。
Yeah.
我确实学到了。
I did.
为了那些不在推特上、不了解我们在说什么的人着想——很可能有不少听这个节目的人并不知道，我们组织了一场淘汰赛。
And for the benefit of those who who aren't on Twitter and aren't aware of what we're talking about, which may well be a sizable number of people who are listening to this, we organized a a tournament, kind of knockout tournament.
我们设置了十六强、四分之一决赛、半决赛和决赛，来找出最受追捧的英国首相——也就是听这个播客并关注推特的听众们选出的最伟大的英国首相。
So going we had best of 16, quarter final, semifinals, final to find out who the most popular British prime minister was, prime minister that that that people who listen to this podcast and who follow it on Twitter, chose as the greatest British prime minister.
多米尼克，这16位首相是你选出来的，对吧？
And, Dominic, you you you selected the 16 prime ministers, didn't you?
是的。
Yes.
你还给他们排了种子排名。
And you you seeded them.
所以我们有八个种子，他们都是谁？
So we had eight seeds who were who were they?
丘吉尔是头号种子，我想是这样的。
They it was Churchill was top seed, I think.
所以是丘吉尔、沃波尔、迪斯雷利、格莱斯顿、小皮特、艾德礼、劳合·乔治和撒切尔。
So it's Churchill, Walpole, Disraeli, Gladstone, Pitt the Younger, Attlee, Lloyd George, and Thatcher.
对。
Right.
所以他们就是那八位。
So they so so they were the eight.
那另外八个是谁？
And then the other eight were?
另外那八个是
And the other
另外八个是索尔兹伯里勋爵、托尼·布莱尔、帕默斯顿子爵和老皮特。
eight were Lord Salisbury, Tony Blair, Viscount Palmerston, Pitt the Elder.
所以小皮特被选上了，但老皮特没有。
So Pitt the Younger had was ceded, but Pitt the Elder not.
利物浦勋爵、H·H·阿斯奎斯、罗伯特·皮尔和哈罗德·威尔逊，后者是制片人临时要求加入的，因为制片人觉得16人中工党人物太少，想再加一个人。
Lord Liverpool, HH Asquith, Robert Peel, and Harold Wilson, who was inserted at the last minute at the producer's request because the producer thought there were insufficient labor names in the 16, and he wanted an extra person.
当然，威尔逊在第一轮就被淘汰了，这证明了托尼对历史的了解有多浅。
Of course, Wilson got knocked out of the first hurdle, so that proves what Tony knows about history.
既然他没来参加这次录音，他也无能为力。
And since he's not here for this recording, there's nothing he can do about it.
有没有哪位首相你觉得本该入选却不幸落选了？
Were there were there any prime ministers you felt were unlucky not to make that 16?
嗯，我觉得我会把斯坦利·鲍德温加进去，但可能是因为我有点偏爱他，我喜欢斯坦利·鲍德温。
Well, I think I I would have put Stanley Baldwin in, but that's because probably because I'm a bit biased because I like Stanley Baldwin.
当我看我们的名单和这些锦标赛时，我觉得它明显偏向现代人物。
I think when when I look at our list and I look at the tournaments, think it's very modern heavy.
所以我觉得18世纪看起来像个巨大的空白，对吧？
So I think the eighteenth century looks like a huge black hole, doesn't it?
我们中间没有人，我的意思是，我们有老皮特，但在他之后还有沃波尔，但你知道，还有像纽卡斯尔公爵或者巴特伯爵这类名字。
And we didn't have anybody between I mean, we had Pitt the Elder, but after and Walpole, but, you know, there's all these names, sort of the duke of Newcastle or something, the earl of Butte.
但基本上，没人了解这些人，确实存在一个巨大的空白。
But but basically, nobody knows anything about, and we didn't you know, there's a big hole.
这就像是‘百大专辑’这类榜单，对吧？
It's like the lists of kind of 100 great albums, isn't it?
而且总是最近的专辑最常上榜。
And it's always the most recent albums that
是的。
Yes.
没错。
Exactly.
没错。
Exactly.
正确。
Correct.
《佩珀军士的孤独之心俱乐部乐队》排在第三位左右。
Sergeant Pepper lurking around at number three or something.
不过，汤姆，我原本预期撒切尔和布莱尔会因为这个原因表现很好，就像他们在全国民调中表现优异一样，但事实并非如此。
Although, Tom, my expectation, which was Thatcher and Blair would do very well for precisely that reason, as they do well in polls nationally, was not borne out.
我认为这很好地体现了政治或历史爱好者与普通公众之间的差异。
And I think that's an interesting example of the difference between political enthusiasts or history enthusiasts and the general public.
因为我们在做这件事的时候，我忍不住去查了最新的调查。
Because while we were doing this, I was moved to look up the most recent survey.
你看过这个吗？
Have you seen this?
2019年YouGov进行的最新全国民调，他们问人们谁是最优秀的首相？
The most recent national poll done by YouGov in 2019, where they asked people to to who was the best prime minister?
你觉得人们会选谁？
Now who do you think people chose?
大多数民众。
The majority of the population.
丘吉尔。
Churchill.
我认为有21%的人选择了丘吉尔。
21%, I think, chose Churchill.
第二名是谁？
Number two?
我不知道。
I've no idea.
我不清楚。
I don't know.
撒切尔。
Thatcher.
19%。
19%.
其他所有人，我的意思是， literally，其他人都远远落后。
And then everybody else I mean, literally, everybody else was nowhere.
其他人都只有4%、5%左右。
Everybody else was kind of 4%, 5%.
我觉得托尼·布莱尔是5%。
I think Tony Blair was 5%.
安妮是4%或者类似的比例。
Atney was 4% or something like that.
你知道，这一切都表明公众和我们的听众之间其实存在差异。
And, you know, everything and that just shows how there's a difference between the public and our listeners, actually.
或者你是在暗示，左翼人士、推特用户比非推特用户更左倾？
Or are you perhaps implying that people on left wing are people on Twitter are more left wing than people who aren't?
嗯，那确实是
Well, that's
一个令人震惊的想法。
A shocking thought.
一直都是这样，是的。
Been that's been yeah.
我的意思是，这可能会让一些听众感到震惊。
I mean, that will horrify some of our listeners perhaps.
但这一点早有记载，不是吗？
But, course, that's well chronicled, isn't it?
推特往往偏向左翼，对吧？
That Twitter tends to to skew to the left?
我想我们在刚才的活动中也稍微看到了这一点。
And I think you saw that a little bit in this in our exercise.
好的。
Okay.
所以这有点像英格兰在墨西哥比赛，某些人在推特上更难竞争。
So so it's a bit like, England playing in Mexico, that it's it's it's harder for certain players to compete on Twitter.
我觉得确实有一两个这样的角色。
I think there are there were definitely one or two players.
我能想到一个特别的例子。
I can think of one player in particular.
我认为，如果你把玛格丽特·撒切尔放在推特投票中，和任何东西——动物、植物或矿物——对战，她都会赢。
I think I I don't think I think if you put Margaret Thatcher on a Twitter poll against anybody, animal, vegetable, or mineral, She's gonna in.
是的。
Yeah.
遵守法律。
Obey the law.
对。
Yes.
诺斯勋爵。
Lord North.
是的。
Yes.
好的。
Okay.
那么，我们是否应该看看小组赛，直接进入主题？我们不会深入讨论比赛的细节。
Well well, should we should we look at the, the group matches and just do it to to essentially, we're not going to discuss the ins and outs of the match.
我们只讨论参赛者以及他们的表现如何。
We're just gonna talk about the the the the contenders and how they shape up.
当然。
Sure.
第一轮是迪斯雷利对阵索尔兹伯里勋爵。
The first the first round was, Disraeli against Lord Salisbury.
迪斯雷利赢了那场。
And, Disraeli won that.
他获得了79%的选票。
He he got 79% of the vote.
所以关于迪斯雷利，我们在这方面有点分歧，因为我希望把他列为种子选手，而你不同意。
So Disraeli, we we had a bit of a a difference on that because I wanted him as a a seed, and you didn't.
我认为你唯一同意我做的种子安排，就是让迪斯雷利进入比赛。
And I think that was the only the only thing that you you seeded to me was letting Disraeli get in.
好吧，你看这里
Well, here you've got
这是一个很好的例子，汤姆，关于我们如何看待历史上首相的方式。
a really good example, think, Tom, of the way we think about prime ministers in history.
我的意思是，我们做过很多播客，讨论过历史上的伟人和杰出个体。
So, I mean, we've done tons of podcasts where we've talked about great men or greatness and individuals in history.
但首相是个有趣的特例，因为历史记录、历史学家的看法，和公众记忆中的形象之间总有些微妙差异。
But prime ministers are an interesting one because there's always a slight difference between, you know, the historical record and what historians think of them and their place in the public memory.
所以迪斯雷利，我认为他在历史评价和公众印象之间存在很大差异，你知道，他当首相的时间并不长。
So Disraeli, I think there is a there is a big difference between you know, he wasn't prime minister that long.
他当时也谈不上特别受欢迎，但他却在大众想象中留下了极其深远的印象，成为一位典型的维多利亚时代首相。
He, you know, he he wasn't astoundingly popular at the time by any means, but he's left this enormous imprint on the popular imagination as a sort of Victorian prime minister.
你知道，他有点花花公子的气质。
You know, it's a sort of dandy.
他是帝国主义的象征。
It's the face of imperialism.
他是某种民粹主义的代表。
It's the face of kind of populatorism.
维多利亚女王非常喜欢他。
And Queen Victoria loved him.
维多利亚女王也非常喜欢他。
And Queen Victoria loved him.
还有格莱斯顿与迪斯雷利之间的竞争。
And the sort of Gladstone Disraeli rivalry.
迪斯雷利一直被铭记，我们在电影里总能看到他。
And Disraeli props up, you know, we see him in films.
像安东尼·谢尔这样的人总是在关于维多利亚女王的电影里扮演他，一切都显得很愉快，人人都很高兴见到他。
Sort of someone like Anthony Sharer is always playing him in films about queen Victoria, and it's all very jolly, and everybody's pleased to see him.
你知道吗？
You know?
那就是迪斯雷利。
There's Disraeli.
但索尔兹伯里勋爵是个更重要的人物。
But Lord Salisbury was a much more substantial figure.
他担任首相的时间更长。
He's prime minister for longer.
如果你要选一个英国真正成为头号强国的时刻，我认为很可能是在索尔兹伯里勋爵执政期间。
He presided over you know, if you're gonna pick a moment when Britain was was really was top nation, I think under Lord Salisbury, probably.
索尔兹伯里勋爵体现了十九世纪末一种非常成功的保守党政治风格。
Lord Salisbury epitomized a particular kind of Toryism that's very successful kind of villa Toryism at the end of the nineteenth century.
索尔兹伯里勋爵三次出任首相，对吧？
So the thing about Lord Salisbury, who is prime minister prime minister three times, isn't he?
是的。
Yeah.
而且他在十九世纪转变为二十世纪的时候担任首相。
And and and he's prime minister when when the nineteenth century becomes the twentieth century.
所以
So
没错。
Exactly.
他确实是。
He is.
是的。
Yes.
他曾经说过我听过的最经典的首相言论：无论发生什么，情况都会变得更糟，因此我们最有利的做法就是尽量什么也不做。
His he he said my favorite ever prime ministerial saying, which is whatever happens will be for the worse, and therefore, it is in our interest that as little should happen as possible.
我想，那些不喜欢保守派的人认为，这正是保守主义的本质。
And I guess that that's the, people who don't like conservatives think that that's the essence of conservatism.
就是阻止任何变化。
Just stop anything changing.
但那不对，他并没有那样做，是吧？
But that's not true that's not what he did, is it?
我的意思是，实际上，索尔兹伯里勋爵为20世纪保守党的形态奠定了基础，而这种形态在20世纪比自由党或工党都要成功得多。
I mean, because basically, Lord Salisbury does lay the foundations for the kind of twentieth century incarnation of the Conservative Party, which actually has been much more successful than either the Liberals or or Labour in in the twentieth century.
是的。
Yes.
所以索尔兹伯里并不是索尔。
So Salisbury's not Saul exactly.
索尔兹伯里说过很多保守倒退的话。
Salisbury said a lot of reactionary things.
他看起来非常保守倒退。
He looked very reactionary.
他某种程度上体现了他所表现出的那种特质。
He kind of incarnated what he seemed to
他体现了保守倒退，因为他留着大胡子。
incarnate reactionary because he had a big beard.
是的。
Yes.
你是这个意思吗？
Is that what is that what you're saying?
对。
Yeah.
基本上，我就是这个意思。
Basically, that's what I'm saying.
当上首相后，他的胡子
Become prime minister, then he would have been His beard
要短一些。
was smaller.
我认为没人能否认这一点。
I think no one can dispute the court.
自从索尔兹伯里勋爵以来，我们再没遇见过留胡子的首相。
We've had no bearded prime minister since since lord Salisbury.
所以科尔宾没有成为首相，对于胡须爱好者来说是一次错失的机会。
So Corbyn not becoming prime minister was a wasted opportunity on the the pogonophile front.
索尔兹伯里也是第一位拥有电力的首相。
Salisbury's also the first first prime minister to have electricity.
所以他的房子完全配备了电灯，远远领先于他几乎所有的同时代人。
So he's got his house fully kitted out with electric with electric lights, well ahead of almost, you know, most of his contemporaries.
当你说到他的房子时
And when you say his house
嗯，就是他的房子。
Well, his his his house.
巨大无比。
Colossal.
是的。
Yeah.
它非常巨大。
It's colossal.
但索尔兹伯里勋爵，我的意思是，显然很难为他辩护，因为从公众舆论的角度来看，他已经去世了。
But but Salisbury well, I mean, there's there's it's obviously ludicrous to make a case for Lord Salisbury because he's he's dead in terms of public opinion.
除了历史学家和历史爱好者之外，几乎没人记得索尔兹伯里勋爵。
Nobody really remembers Lord Salisbury other than historians and historical enthusiasts.
但他是一个更为重要的人物。
But he's a much more substantial figure.
我会说是迪斯雷利。
I would argue, Dizraeli.
比迪斯雷利更重要。
Than Dizraeli.
但我认为，这恰恰说明了人们在投票时所看重的不仅仅是政治成就。
But I guess that that that kind of points out that part of what people are voting for in this is it's not just political achievements.
更重要的是你在历史想象中留下的那种印记。
It's the kind of the the the the the charge that you leave in the historical imagination.
没错。
Exactly.
迪斯雷利是个机智的人。
Disraeli is a wit.
他是个小说家。
He's a novelist.
他风格张扬，与格莱斯顿式的维多利亚道德主义形成鲜明对比。
He's flamboyant, and he's a contrast to Gladstoneian Victorian moralism.
没错。
Exactly.
他有点像狄更斯，不是吗？
He's he's kind of Dickens, isn't he?
而且他确实如此。
And he's Yes.
他成为了首相。
He's become prime minister.
是的。
Yeah.
他是他是
He's a he's
他是狄更斯和劳合·乔治之间的过渡人物。
the he's the way station between Dickens and Lloyd George.
所以，你知道，这就是迪斯雷利，他是第一位如此这般的人物，我认为英国有着悠久的江湖骗子首相传统，而我们现在就有一位。
So, you know, that's and he also Disraeli is the first so there's a huge tradition in Britain, I think, of the mountebank prime minister, and we have one now.
所以，你知道吗？
So You know?
英国选民喜欢江湖骗子。
The British the British vote electorate loves a mountebank.
我认为‘江湖骗子’这个词很贴切。
I think mountebank is the word.
迪斯雷利是个江湖骗子。
And the Israeli was a mountebank.
劳合·乔治是个江湖骗子。
Lloyd George was a mountebank.
托尼·布莱尔有点像江湖骗子，而鲍里斯·约翰逊则是个不折不扣的江湖骗子。
Tony Blair was a bit of a mountebank, and Boris Johnson is a mountebank.
确实如此。
Definitely is.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
但我的意思是，这其实是个有趣的提醒，说明人们在历史记录中留下的印象，远远超出了专业学者写的学术文本，绝对如此。
But, I mean, I think that that that this is kind of interesting as a reminder that the the impression that people leave on the historical record is it extends beyond the academic texts that professionals Absolutely.
我的意思是，你在罗马皇帝身上也能看到这种情况，对吧，汤姆？
I mean, you get this with Roman Empress, don't you, Tom?
我的意思是，你肯定注意到了。
I mean, you must notice
一部分原因。
part of it.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
嗯，我们之前讨论过迪斯雷利。
Well, we've we've talked about, Disraeli.
不可避免地，我们现在要谈到格莱斯顿，他被非常有趣地与托尼·布莱尔作了对比。
Inevitably, we now come on to to Gladstone, who, was drawn very amusingly against Tony Blair.
格莱斯顿赢得了55%的票数。
And Gladstone got he won 55%.
所以那确实是一场激烈的较量。
So that was that was quite a tough battle, actually.
在我们具体讨论格莱斯顿之前，我觉得也许我们应该稍后再谈他，因为他在锦标赛后期才成为大明星，对吧？
Before we talk about Gladstone specifically, I think maybe we should leave Gladstone slightly later on because he's becomes a big star later in the tournament, doesn't he?
好的。
Okay.
那我们来谈谈
So let's talk about
我觉得布莱尔退出才是最有趣的。
It's Blair bowing out that I think is so interesting.
而且我认为，布莱尔在推特上注定会面临巨大挑战，因为正如你所说，推特整体偏向左翼，而布莱尔因伊拉克战争而备受拖累。
And I think Blair, clearly, Blair on Twitter is always gonna face a big uphill battle because as you say, Twitter kinda leans to the left, and Blair is crippled by Iraq.
但我觉得托尼·布莱尔作为首相这个人物最引人入胜的地方在于，他赢得了三次大选。
But I think what's fascinating about Tony Blair as a prime ministerial character is he he won three elections.
他显然在选民中极其受欢迎，也极其擅长赢得选举。
He was obviously tremendously popular and tremendously effective as an electoral vote winner.
但我想不到还有哪位首相在卸任后声誉会如此急剧下滑。
But I can't think of many prime ministers whose reputation has sunk so precipitously after leaving office.
你知道，如今托尼·布莱尔成了唯一一位基本上只要一露面，
You know, so Tony Blair is now the one prime minister who basically, you know, he he shows his face in public.
他去街角商店买牛奶，人们就会冲他喊叫，指责他伊拉克战争、说他跑去美国、是个骗子，诸如此类的话。
He goes to buy some milk at the corner shop, and people shout at him about Iraq and say, oh, you ran off to America, or you're a fraud, and and all that sort of thing.
但难道不也很关键吗？他根本不会去街角小店买牛奶，因为他太有钱了，这也是另一个方面。
Well, but but isn't it also crucial he wouldn't go and buy milk from a corner shop because he's so rich, and that's another aspect of it.
我想是这样。
Well, I suppose so.
我的意思是，首相离职后通常都很富有。
I mean, but prime ministers are often rich when they leave office.
我的意思是，撒切尔夫人靠演讲赚了很多钱。
I mean, Margaret Thatcher made a lot of money from speeches.
但对布莱尔来说，有一种情况是
But with Blair, there was something
她是因为她，你知道，她就是一心赚钱。
her to because she's she, you know, she was all about making money.
我的意思是，这正是她的一切。
I mean, that was that was what it was all about.
而托尼·布莱尔呢，你知道，他本该是个社会主义者。
Whereas Tony Blair was, you know, I mean, he was supposedly a socialist.
是的。
And Yeah.
他只是随便赚了点钱，而人们通常不喜欢社会主义者赚钱，我觉得。
Well he just kind of made a and and and people never like socialists making money, I think.
不。
No.
我想，我觉得这真是非同寻常，总有一天会有人写出一部关于托尼·布莱尔的非凡传记，那会像一场希腊悲剧。
And I suppose I I just think he it's an extraordinary you know, one day, someone will do an extraordinary biography of Tony Blair, and it will seem like this sort of Greek tragedy.
从1997年‘一切只会更好’、人们在唐宁街十号外挥舞着小英国国旗，到如今对许多人而言，他几乎成了一个滑稽人物，这种轨迹真是令人唏嘘。
The trajectory from the 1997 things can only get better, people waving their little Union Jacks outside Number 10, to the sort of sense now that he's he's actually become, for a lot of people, I think, almost a comic figure.
对我来说不是这样，多米尼克。
Not for me, Dominic.
我知道你你你，但我一听他说话，就觉得，没错，这完全就是如此。
Well, I know you are you are you are I just have to listen to him, and I think, yeah, that's complete yeah.
什么才叫明智？
What's what good sense.
但你看，你欣赏他却是出于错误的理由，不是吗？
But you see, you admire him for all the wrong reasons, though, don't you?
我认为他是那个提出推迟第一剂和第二剂疫苗接种时间的人，这个想法后来被政府采纳并成为……
I think he was the person who was behind the idea that the first the vaccine the second vaccine should be delayed, which then got picked up by the government and became He
你认为他一个人对此负全责吗？
he was single handedly single handedly responsible for that, do you think,
汤姆？
Tom?
我觉得，他是那个最积极推动这一政策的政治人物，之后被采纳了。
I think I mean, I think he was he was the political figure who was pushing for that the hardest and then got taken up.
所以我认为他仍然在外面做着好事。
So I think he's still he's still out there doing good.
总之，布莱尔被淘汰了。
Anyway, Blair got knocked out.
是的。
Yeah.
别放下。
Leave it up.
所以我们
So we
放手吧。
Let it go.
放手吧。
Let it go.
安排好之后，再安排迪斯雷利和格莱斯顿之间的精彩四分之一决赛。
Set up that then set up the intriguing sem quarter final round between Disraeli and Gladstone.
我的意思是，这绝对是粉丝们的盛宴。
I mean, the absolute one for the fans.
这正是比赛想要、需要并最终得到的。
That's what the tournament wanted and needed and got.
所以我们会适时谈到这一点。
So we'll come to that in due course.
但下一场比赛是温斯顿·丘吉尔作为头号种子选手。
But the next, the next group match was, Winston Churchill top seed.
所以我们稍后再谈丘吉尔。
So we'll perhaps come on to Churchill later.
他以62%的得票率击败了帕尔默斯顿子爵。
He won by 62% against the Viscount Palmerston.
我认为我最喜爱的维多利亚时代首相。
I think my favorite Victorian prime minister.
他担任首相的任期是1855到1858年，以及1859到1865年。
So he's prime minister, 1855 to eight 1859 to '65.
他真是个了不起的人物，不是吗？
He's a tremendous lad, isn't he?
我觉得是的。
I think yes.
我觉得帕尔默斯顿让我很惊讶，他居然没有被彻底抹黑，我想这说明他其实没那么出名。
I think Palmerston would I'm I'm surprised he hasn't I guess it's a sign that he's not better known that he hasn't been totally canceled.
因为在#MeToo时代，我不觉得他是个很合适的人选，你知道的，你不会为了帕尔默斯顿子爵的声誉去跟他共进晚餐，对吧？
Because in the age of me too, I don't think he's a very you know, he's not you wouldn't go to you know, you wouldn't dine a ditch for Viscount Palmerston's reputation, would you?
他是那种去拜访维多利亚女王时，会骚扰她的女仆、不知分寸的人。
He's the kind of guy who who goes to stay with queen Victoria and he bothers her bothers her maids and, you know, can't keep his hands to himself.
我的意思是，这
I mean, that's
他唯一会离开的是。
one thing he'd leave.
那不是因为他走进房间时，以为那是他平时会得到欢迎的那位女士的卧室吗？
Was wasn't that because he went into the room thinking that it was someone who he'd been it was her usual bedroom who who would welcome him.
会欢迎他。
Who would welcome him.
我觉得当时是有些控制的。
I think there was some control.
我同意。
I agree.
从今天的视角来看，这看起来并不完全正面。
It's it it doesn't look entirely good from from from today's perspective.
但他确实讲过一个史上最伟大的首相笑话，当时一个法国人说：‘如果我不是法国人，我会希望成为英国人吗？’帕尔姆斯顿机智地回答：‘如果我不是英国人，我也希望成为英国人。’
But he did make one of the all time great prime ministerial jokes to the French guy who who said that if I were not a Frenchman, would I wish to be an Englishman, to which Palmerston witty replied, if I were not an Englishman, I would wish to be an Englishman too.
这很典型，因为帕尔姆斯顿本人，你又看到了历史记录与公众形象之间那点微妙的差距。
That's very because he is the Palmerston, again, you got the the the, the slight gap between historical record and the public image.
而就帕尔姆斯顿的公众形象而言，他是一个年迈却充满冒险精神的‘果酱外交’代表人物。
And insofar as Palmerston has a public image, it is the swashbuckling sort of aged, but swashbuckling exponent of gumbo diplomacy.
他当上首相时已经七十岁了。
He's 70 when he becomes prime minister.
是的。
So he's Yeah.
他是历史上就任首相时年龄最大的人。
He's the oldest person to become prime minister.
总的来说，帕尔姆斯顿的做法，比如多纳·太平洋事件之类的，就是只要有人哪怕和英国有一点点联系，哪怕只是最微弱的公民身份主张，只要他们在某个偏僻港口的酒吧里被人打了脸，他就立刻介入。
And, basically, Palmerston's thing, you know, this sort of Don Pacifico affair and all these sort of is that if somebody has even the slightest connection to Britain, the most tenuous claim to citizenship and, you know, their faces slapped in a bar in some sort of fly bitten port.
帕尔默斯顿会派一艘炮艇去轰击
Palmerston will send a gunboat to blast
那个港口。
to the port.
炸掉那个港口。
Blow the port.
以及英格兰的强硬手段。
And strong-arm of England.
是的。
Yes.
所以他正是维多利亚时代炮舰外交的化身，没错。
So he's the he's the kind of the embodiment of, Victorian gunboat Absolutely.
十九世纪中期的自信体现。
Self confidence in the middle of of the nineteenth century.
因此，他最终失败也不足为奇。
So it's not really surprising he lost.
不。
No.
我的意思是，这可能不是他的年份。
I mean, this was probably this is this wasn't his year.
我认为我们可以安全地这么说。
I think we can safely say this.
是的。
Yes.
这是不是没问题。
Is this is this Okay.
说到张扬的帝国扩张，下一组又出现了，我的意思是，这真是一个经典案例，观众们非常喜欢。
And and talking of of flamboyant imperial expansion, the the next group ran again I mean, this was a classic one for the I mean, the crowds loved this.
这又是他们想要的。
This is, again, what they wanted.
让小皮特对上老皮特。
Pit the younger against Pitt the elder.
所以是儿子对抗父亲。
So son against father.
小皮特以75%的得票率赢得了那次选举。
Pitt the younger won that 75%.
所以，多米尼克，关于老皮特和小皮特，给我们讲讲吧，因为可能有些人不了解他们。
So, Dominic so so so Pitt the elder, Pitt the younger, tell us about them because people may not know about them.
对。
Right.
老皮特后来成为了查塔姆勋爵。
So Pitt the elder is, he becomes lord Chatham.
他是18世纪中期到晚期的人物。
He is sort of mid to late eighteenth century.
关于老皮特，我其实不太了解，汤姆。
Pitt the Elder is I don't actually know much about Pitt the Elder, Tom.
我本来想蒙混过去，但后来我想起汤姆打印了一大堆资料，他肯定准备充分了，那我还是让他来吧。
I was gonna try and bluff it, and then I thought, I know his troms printed out a load of stuff, and he's gotta come prepared, so I'll let
你去吧。
you do it.
嗯，老皮特。
Well, pet the elder.
我其实当时支持他。
I I was actually backing.
他是我最喜欢的。
He was my favorite.
他是我想赢的那个人，因为他代表的是老萨鲁姆选区，就是那个……哦，对。
He was the guy I wanted to win because he was MP for Old Sarum, which was one of the Oh, right.
那些选区真是荒唐。
Just souls break.
我记得他们只有大约五个选民和五十只羊。
I think they had kind of five voters and about 50 sheep.
而他主导了下议院。
And he dominated the House of Commons.
你就只知道这些关于羊的事吗？
Is that all you know about the sheep?
我就知道这些。
That's all I no.
但他之所以重要，是因为他虽然不是首相，却是英国在七年战争中取得成功背后的关键人物。
But he because he's he's basically he's not as prime minister, but he he's he's the guy who's essentially behind Britain's success in the Seven Years' War.
是的。
Yes.
他确实就是这样。
He has exactly that.
我聊过
I've talked
关于七年战争，我以后会和丹·斯诺聊聊。
with Dan Snow about the Seven Years' War in in due course.
但他本质上正是让英国成为全球帝国强国的人。
But he essentially is is the guy who who makes Britain a a global imperial power.
所以，你可能会说，今年或许并不是他的一年。
So, again, you might well say that this year is not perhaps his year.
他有一句名言。
He has a great line.
我知道只有我能拯救国家，其他人谁都不行，类似这样的话，玛格丽特·撒切尔在她的回忆录中提到，她当上首相时就想到了老皮特。
I know that I alone can save the country and and no one else can or something like that, which Margaret Thatcher quotes in her memoir saying she thought of Pitt the Elder when she became prime minister.
然后是小皮特，我是说，小皮特是少数几位真正堪称巨人的人物之一，我认为。
And then Pitt the Younger, I mean, Pitt the Younger is one of those few relatively few figures, I think, who is just a genuine colossus.
所以我认为，皮特——你知道的，如果我纯粹根据表现来挑选半决赛选手，小皮特毫无疑问会是其中之一，因为他出现在十八世纪末。
So I think Pitt the you know, if you would if I was picking semifinalists purely on performance, I think Pitt the Younger would've as indeed he was, would be a semifinalist because he comes in at the end of the eighteenth century.
他到底是谁？
He's what is he?
他当上首相时才24岁？
24 when he becomes prime minister?
24岁。
24.
而且他年轻力壮。
And he's got so he's got young legs.
所以我们有了最年长的帕尔默斯顿。
So we've had Palmerston's the oldest.
是的。
Yes.
小皮特是最年轻的。
Pitt the younger is the youngest.
皮特被视为腐败之后的反腐败象征，而英国政治此前已经历了一段相当腐败的时期，可追溯到沃波尔时代。
And Pitt is he's the he's seen as the incarnation of anti corruption after what's been a pretty corrupt period in British in British politics already going back to Walpole.
他是现代的。
He is modern.
他组建了一系列联盟来对抗拿破仑。
He he creates a series of coalitions to fight Napoleon.
他非常反对雅各宾派，反对法国大革命，具有强烈的爱国情怀。
He's very anti Jacobin, anti French revolution, sort of patriotic.
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是的。
Yeah.
他确实是，而且他
He he he is, and he's
他是那个在革命时期和拿破仑时期激励英国对抗法国的关键人物，就在特拉法加海战和奥斯特里茨战役后不久去世。
the guy behind you know, who who who essentially kind of inspires Britain to fight against France, through the revolutionary period, through the Napoleonic period, dies shortly after the battles of Trafalgar and Auster litz.
但他是一位非常坚定的废奴主义者。
But he he is a very committed abolitionist.
所以我认为，如今人们对首相的看法中，他们在帝国和奴隶制问题上的立场是一个非常重要的方面。
So I think that that that that this is quite an important aspect of how prime ministers are seen at the moment is where they stood on issues of the empire and on slavery.
对。
Yeah.
所以皮特因为
So Pit because
这在推特评论中一再被提及
this came up again and again on Twitter comments
一次又一次。
and Again and again.
是的。
Yeah.
所以老皮特毫无疑问是个典型的英帝国人物，而小皮特显然通过阻止法国入侵维持了英国的稳定。
So so Pit the elder is definite I mean, he's he's a he's a he's mister British empire guy, and Pit the younger obviously holds it together by keeping Britain, free from French invasion.
但在奴隶制问题上，他无疑是站在正义一方的。
But he is definitely on the side of angels when it comes to slavery.
他是威尔伯福斯的朋友，是废奴主义的坚定反对者。
He's a friend of Wilberforce, big opponent of abolitionism.
所以也许这解释了为什么他能走得那么远。
So perhaps that that explains why, you know, that might be a part of why he went as far as he did.
在威尔伯福斯的传记电影中，他由本尼迪克特·康伯巴奇饰演。
In the Wilberforce biopic, he's played by Benedict Cumberbatch.
我不知道你有没有看过《奇异恩典》。
I don't know if you say Amazing Grace.
他由本尼迪克特·康伯巴奇饰演。
He's played by Benedict Cumberbatch.
而且实际上，这正是《黑爵士》中少数几次嘲讽小皮特的场景之一。
And and actually, that's one of the few times I mean, Pitt the Younger was was mocked in Blackadder.
但小皮特——我的意思是，两位皮特在文化想象中留下的印记都非常少，不是吗？
But Pitt the Younger I mean, both pits have left very little mark on the kind of cultural imagination, haven't they?
我的意思是，如果你在桑德兰的街上随便拦住一百个人，有多少人能说出这两位皮特的事迹？
Mean, most you stop a 100 people in the street in in in sort of in Sunderland, and how many of them can tell you about either of the pits?
所以，你知道，他们本应比现在更受瞩目，对我来说，小皮特在比赛中走得这么远，确实有点出乎意料。
So, you know, they they should loom larger than they do, and it to me, it was a slight surprise actually that Pitt Younger got as far as he did in the tournament.
我的意思是，也许在某种程度上，这是人们对法国的反感在起作用。
I mean, maybe it's an anti French vote to some extent that people sort of said.
你知道的？
You know?
也许吧。
Maybe.
他赢得了许多战争。
He won he won wars.
我想，他们某种程度上是在沾纳尔逊的光。
He sort of I'm they're basking a bit of Nelson's reflected glory, I I suspect.
他还曾被医生开处方饮用波特酒，后来对此上瘾了。
He he also was famously prescribed port by his doctor, and and then became addicted to it.
是的。
Yeah.
而且我昨天刚从推特上了解到，给波特酒开处方的那位医生，他的儿子后来接替皮特成为首相。
And apparently, I learned yes yesterday, somebody on Twitter told me that the the the doctor who prescribed the port to him, that his son then succeeded Pitt as prime minister.
所以是奥林顿勋爵。
So Lord Orrington.
对。
Yeah.
显然他是在下长远的棋。
Was obviously playing the long game there.
是的。
So Yes.
也许他会在明年的世界杯上亮相。
So maybe he'll feature in the next in next year's World Cup.
谁知道呢？
Who knows?
好的。
Alright.
我们已经讨论了第一轮的四场比赛。
Well, we've done four of the first round matches.
广告后，我们将介绍最终的冠军，以及一些足球界的绝对巨星，汤姆。
Coming up after the break, we have the eventual champion, and we have some absolute titans of the game, Tom.
劳合·乔治、沃波尔、阿斯奎斯，当然还有玛格丽特·撒切尔。
Lloyd George, Walpole, Asquith, and, of course, Margaret Thatcher.
广告后，请继续关注这些重量级的候选人。
So join us after the break for these these colossal contenders.
大家好，欢迎收听《读书会》，这是由Goal Hanger推出的全新播客，由我多米尼克·桑布鲁克主持。
Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Book Club, a new podcast from Goal Hanger, hosted by me, Dominic Sandbrook.
还有我，塔比莎·赛勒斯。
And me, Tabitha Cyrus.
正如一些听众可能知道的，我曾是多米尼克在《历史其余部分》节目中的制片人，去年我们还做了一个关于书籍的迷你系列。
As some of you may know, I've been Dominic's producer on The Rest is History, and we even did a miniseries last year about all things books.
由于我们非常享受那次合作，所以我们决定将其发展成一档独立节目。
And since we enjoyed that so much, we have decided to roll it out as its own show.
因此，节目将在每周二更新。
So it'll be coming out every Tuesday.
每次我们会选择一本不同的书，深入探讨它们背后的所有故事。
We'll be doing a different book each time and digging into all the stories behind them.
我们将讨论一些有史以来最伟大、最著名书籍背后的历史背景。
And we are gonna be talking about the historical context behind some of the greatest and most famous books of all time.
我们会挖掘这些作品背后那些非凡的人物、故事背后的意外情节，同时也会逐步剖析每本书的情节，深入探索其深层内涵。
We're gonna be digging into the remarkable people behind them, the unexpected stories behind the stories, and also unraveling the plot of each book a bit and delving into the depths of the story.
你不需要读过这些书就能听这个节目，但我们希望，到每集结束时，你能够装作自己读过它们。
Now you don't have to have read the books to listen to the show, but we hope that by the end of each episode, you will be able to pretend to people that you've read them.
这才是关键。
That is the key thing.
而且无论你有没有读过，我们都希望你能学到许多有趣的事实。
And either way, whether you read them or not, we hope that you'll learn lots of fascinating facts.
你会听到很多精彩的故事，或许还会听到塔比的一些笑声。
You'll do lots of great stories, and maybe Tabby, the odd laugh.
我们将探讨像《呼啸山庄》和《弗兰肯斯坦》这样惊悚的哥特式言情小说，以及像《了不起的盖茨比》或《小妇人》这样的经典作品。
We will be looking at thrilling gothic bodice rippers like Wuthering Heights and Frankenstein, as well as iconic stories like The Great Gatsby or Little Women.
此外，我们还会涉及一些更现代的作品。
And then also some more modern stuff.
比如《权力的游戏》、《普通人》、《饥饿游戏》、《哈姆内特》，各种激动人心的故事。
So Game of Thrones, Normal People, The Hunger Games, Hamnet, all manner of exciting stories.
所以，请在你收听播客的任何平台加入我们，一起探索与书籍有关的一切吧。
So please join us on our journey into all things books wherever you get your podcasts.
只需每周二搜索‘读书会’，希望那时能在那儿见到你们。
Just search for the book club every Tuesday, and hopefully, we will see you there.
欢迎回到《余下的都是历史》，我们当然在谈论首相的世界杯。
Welcome back to the rest is history, and we are, of course, talking about the prime minister's World Cup.
最终的赢家会在这边的赛程中产生吗？
Is the eventual winner on this side of the draw?
那就让时间来证明吧。
Well, time will tell.
让我们从这场精彩的对决开始，汤姆·霍兰。
Let's start with with this glamour tie, Tom Holland.
克莱门特·艾德礼对阵利物浦勋爵。
Clement Attlee versus Liverpool, Lord Liverpool.
你一开始更看好谁？
Who did you fancy from the beginning in this one?
嗯，我选了克莱门特·艾德礼，我觉得他会赢，结果他真的以81%的压倒性优势赢了。
Well, well, I I I I I went for Clement Attlee, who I thought was gonna win and indeed did win by the thumping margin of 81%.
我的意思是，这是最大的胜幅。
I mean, that was the largest margin of victory.
我认为这很可能是因为大多数人根本不知道利物浦勋爵是谁。
And I think that's probably because most people have no idea who Lord Liverpool is.
是的。
Yes.
所以他可以
So he could
因为我竟然尴尬地以为他在克里米亚战争期间担任首相，而那其实是阿伯丁。
really Because I I rather embarrassingly thought that he he was prime minister during the during the Crimean War, which was, of course, Aberdeen.
对。
Yeah.
你基本上把城市搞混了，不是吗？
You basically got got your cities mixed up, didn't you?
我搞错了。
I did.
所以，利物浦勋爵是个极其保守的人物。
So lord Liverpool is this sort of ultra reactionary figure, really.
他经历了拿破仑战争的结束，一直到19世纪20年代。
He's the end of the Napoleonic Wars and into the nineteen twenties.
他担任首相的时间长得离谱。
He's prime minister a ridiculously long time.
而且他
And he's
是彼得·洛先生，对吧？
mister Peter Lou, isn't he?
所以，他根本不可能在推特上受欢迎。
So that that wouldn't make him popular with people on Twitter at all.
没错。
No.
我现在回头看，不禁怀疑我们当初是否仅仅因为他的任期长，就把他列入了种子选手，而不是基于任何合理的胜算。
I I I kind of now that I look at that, I wonder whether we included him in the seeds purely on the basis of longevity rather than any reasonable prospect of victory.
你不是说他是第一位穿长裤的首相吗？
Didn't you say that he was the first prime minister to wear trousers?
他是的。
He was.
他是第一位首相
He was the first prime
而且，他还是唯一一位有伦敦火车站以他命名的首相。
minister to And also, he's the only he's the only prime minister to have a London railway station named after him.
利物浦街。
Liverpool Street.
是这样吗？
Is that right?
那是个非常好的事实。
That's a that's a very good fact.
是的。
Yes.
我从未因为，当然了，利物浦街根本去不了利物浦。
I've never because, of course, Liverpool Street, you can't go to Liverpool from Liverpool Street.
是的。
No.
它是以利物浦勋爵命名的。
It's named after lord Liverpool.
对。
Yeah.
还有，显然，彼得·洛。
And, obviously, Peter Lou.
所以他就是这种人。
So he's one of these people.
是的。
Yes.
从长远来看，人们只会记得他的一件事，那就是和平。
In in the long run, people will only ever know one thing about him, and that will be peacefully.
我意识到我们还没提到过他，他担任首相的时间是1812年到1827年。
I realize that we haven't said he so he was prime minister 1812 to 1827.
我的意思是，这可是一段很长的时间。
I mean, that's a long stretch.
确实很长。
Such a long stretch.
但显然，那是一个略早于民主时代的时期，你知道，他是那个相对贵族化的小集团的领导人，而他一直稳坐这个位置。
But obviously, a slightly predemocratic era, You know, he's head of this sort of relatively aristocratic cabal that's running the country, and he just sticks at it.
支持他的论点是稳定性，比如说。
Well And the argument in his favor is stability, suppose.
有趣的是，他的政府在许多著名诗人中非常不受欢迎。
It's interesting that that that his I mean, his government is is wildly unpopular with a lot of very famous poets.
比如拜伦、雪莱等人，他们对彼得·卢及其代表的一切都强烈反感。
So Byron, Shelley, and so on, who react very very very strongly against Peter Lou and all that.
但他们从未真正针对利物浦。
But they never actually target Liverpool.
他们总是针对当时的外交大臣卡斯尔雷。
They're always going after Castlereagh, who's foreign secretary at the time.
所以我觉得，利物浦勋爵有点平淡无奇。
So I think I think it's slightly slightly colorless, Lord Liverpool.
他是那种有点平淡无奇的首相。
He's one of these prime ministers who's slightly colorless.
我的意思是，从这个角度看，艾德礼的对比其实并不差，因为他们俩都……
I mean, actually, in that sense, the Attlee matchup is not such a bad matchup because they both Yeah.
在某种程度上，他们不如自己政府中的某些人物那么为人熟知。
Are less well known in some ways than some of the characters in their governments.
是的。
Yep.
好的。
Okay.
是的。
Yep.
这真是精彩的评论。
So that's great punditry there.
我喜欢这个。
I like that.
真的很喜欢这个。
Really like that.
这确实很棒。
That's that's really good.
你觉得我适合从事这类工作吗？
You think I've got a career in this kind of thing?
说到评论，我们现在来看看本届赛事中一位毫无疑问的明星选手，但他没能突破这一轮，那就是玛格丽特·撒切尔。
And and talking of punditry, we now move on to definitely one of the the kind of star performers in the in in the tournament who didn't go beyond this round, and that was Margaret Thatcher.
是的。
Yeah.
她是其中一位种子选手。
Who was one of the seeds.
她对阵的是赫伯特·亨利·阿斯奎斯，他从1908年到1916年担任首相。
She was up against Herbert Henry Asquith, who was prime minister from, what is he, nineteen o nineteen o eight to 1916.
他带领我们进入了第一次世界大战。
And who led us into the First World War.
正是他把我们带入了第一次世界大战。
Which led us into the First World War.
是的。
Yeah.
所以阿斯奎斯，你知道，我特别喜欢阿斯奎斯。
So Asquith, you know, Asquith I love Asquith.
他是个了不起的人物。
He's a great he's a great figure.
我非常欣赏阿斯奎斯。
I'm very fond of Asquith.
他实际上以59%的得票率轻松击败了撒切尔。
He won pretty comfortably, actually 59% beating Thatcher.
当我们开始时，我们的制片人曾对我说过，如果撒切尔赢了，你就得自己写剧本。
And our producer had said to it, me when we started, you know, if Thatcher wins, you're gonna have to write your own scripts.
这暗示着他一直都在写剧本，当然，这其实是个有点无关紧要的问题。
That that suggests that he always writes the scripts, which, of course, you know, is a bit of a kind of a moot point.
但没错，她从来就没机会赢得这场比赛，对吧？
But, yeah, she was never in danger of winning the tournament, was she?
我的意思是，她根本不可能赢得这样的比赛。
I mean, she was never going to win a tournament like this.
关于玛格丽特·撒切尔，有一件很有趣的事。
And it's an interesting thing with Margaret Thatcher.
这不仅仅是她具有争议性，因为我认为，作为政治家，本质上就是具有争议性的。
It's not just that she's divisive, because I think to be a politician by definition is to be divisive.
因为治理就意味着要做选择，而关键在于，她的分裂性持续了如此之久，如今已成了许多人对她的主要印象。
Because to govern is to choose and, you know, it's the fact that she the divisiveness has lingered so long and now defines her for a lot of people.
我想，还有几位首相也具有类似的情况。
And there are a few other prime ministers of whom that's true, I think.
这太非凡了，我认为其中很大一部分原因，汤姆，也许是布莱尔？
It's extraordinary, and I think a lot of that, Tom Perhaps Blair?
有可能，但我认为这与撒切尔夫人更有关系。
Possibly, but I think it's more charged with Thatcher.
我觉得这更充满争议，我认为很多原因在于她是个女人。
I think it's much more charged, and I think, I think a lot of it is because she's a woman.
我一直觉得，这之所以如此充满争议，很大程度上是因为她是女性，而且她被视为一个终结了某种男性主导生活方式的人。
And I think I've always thought that a lot of it is very charged because of because she's a woman and because she's seen as a woman who who who closed down a particular masculine way of life.
而且我
And I
我认为这为它增添了大量争议性。
think that adds a lot of the charge to it.
因为特蕾莎·梅并没有被人们以任何特别的方式看待，我的意思是，几乎没人记得她，对吧？
Because Theresa May isn't regarded with any I mean, people barely remember her at all, do they?
是的。
No.
人们其实记不住。
People don't really remember.
我的意思是，现在你几乎可以说，特蕾莎·梅在历史上只会是个注脚，就像戈登·布朗、詹姆斯·卡拉汉，或者亚历克·道格拉斯-休姆那样。
I mean, already, you can sort of say Theresa you know, you know that Theresa May will be a bit of a footnote in history as Gordon Brown is actually, or as James Callahan is or Sir Alex Douglas Hume.
你知道，有些首相，比如爱德华·希思，只当了三年半的首相，但他做了很多事，他是‘欧洲先生’。
You know, there are some prime ministers you know, Ted Heath was only prime minister for three and a half years, but he did a lot, and he was mister Europe.
你知道，欧洲是他的一切，这定义了他。
You know, Europe was his thing, and that defined him.
那什么会定义梅夫人呢？
What's gonna define missus May?
我的意思是，没能推动英国脱欧……
I mean, failing to get Brexit
对，没错。
to yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
所以撒切尔夫人输了。
So so missus Thatcher lost.
阿斯奎斯，当然，像你这样的博学之人。
Asquith, of course, a balial man like yourself.
是的。
Yeah.
就像我一样。
Like myself.
对。
Yeah.
博学之人的优越性。
The superiority of a of a balial man.
所以，我想你是支持他的？
So were you were you backing him, I guess?
我确实希望他能走得更远，因为我认为他在第一次世界大战中被劳合·乔治彻底坑了。
I I wanted him to well, I I I do like to see Asquith going far, because I think he was utterly shafted by Lloyd George in the First World War.
当然，阿斯奎斯是个非常了不起的人物。
And of course, Asquith Asquith is this fantastic character.
你知道，当第一次世界大战爆发时，他正忙着纠缠他女儿最好的朋友维内蒂亚·斯坦利，给她写一封又一封没完没了的信。
You know, he's basically when the First War breaks out, he's busy bothering his daughter's best friend, Venetia Stanley, and sending her these endless letters.
事实上，在战争爆发前一周，有个特别搞笑的时刻。
In fact, there's a hilarious moment about a week before the first war breaks out.
他给维内蒂亚·斯坦利写信，她比他小大约二十五岁左右，说：这是我经历过的最痛苦的事。
He's he writes to Venetia Stanley, who's basically, what is she, about twenty five years his junior or something, and says, this is the most awful torment I've ever known.
我不得不放弃去乡间别墅度周末，因为我要处理这些事。
I have to give up coming to see you at Country House weekend because I've gotta deal with this
该死的最后
bloody Last
世界大战。
of World War.
在西方战线的某场战役期间，他被人看到正在雅典娜神庙里一边剪头发一边看书，类似这种不端行为还有很多。
And there's a lot of this sort of stuff as, you know, during one of the battles of the Western Front, he's spotted reading a book in the Athenaeum while having his hair cut, and there's all this sort of misbehavior.
保守党领袖博尼劳尔在组成联合政府时，去拜访阿斯奎斯，发现他正和三位年轻女士打桥牌。
Bonillaure, the conservative leader, when they went into, coalition, went round to to to talk to Asquith, and he was kind of playing bridge with three young ladies.
是的。
Yeah.
这正是我想说的，你根本不会觉得这样的人能击败像撒切尔这样的重量级对手，但他确实做到了。
And that's that's that's kind of what I mean, you you wouldn't think that this is the guy to to to beat a a heavyweight champion like Thatcher, but clearly He did.
对。
Yeah.
在战役期间读经典著作、剪头发，显然是正确的做法。
Reading classic books, and having your haircut during battles is obviously the way to go.
但我挺喜欢这种想法：一个整天读经典著作的人，竟然打败了从不读书的人。
But I I quite like the idea that somebody who sits around reading classic books beat someone who never did.
好了，我们继续吧。
Anyway, let's move on.
接下来的一场对决是第一位首相罗伯特·沃波尔对阵皮尔。
So the next match was, so Robert Walpole, the first prime minister, against Peel.
沃波尔以64%的得票率赢得了这场对决。
And Walpole won that 64%.
不，
No.
他没有赢。
He didn't.
他输了，他输了。
He lost He lost it.
皮尔赢了。
Peel Peel won.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yes.
抱歉。
Sorry.
皮尔赢了。
Peel won.
是的。
Yeah.
皮尔赢了。
Peel won.
所以沃尔波尔被让出了。
So Walpole was ceded.
而且对。
And Yeah.
我想你是因为他——我是说，他是第一位首相，所以他是18世纪的开端，才让他出线的。
I guess that you ceded him because he I mean, he's the first prime minister, so he's the beginning of the eighteenth century.
显然，是一位巨人般的人物。
Obviously, a titanic figure.
是的。
Yeah.
但我猜也许人们比记得沃尔波尔更记得皮尔？
But I guess that perhaps people don't do people remember Peel better than they remember Walpole?
我的意思是，我认为人们记得皮尔。
I mean, I think people remember Peel.
有些人在学校学过皮尔。
Some people have done Peale at school.
他们学过《谷物法》，以及《谷物法》的废除。
They've done the Corn Laws, the repeal of the Corn Laws.
所以，基本上，皮尔废除《谷物法》之前，《谷物法》是托利党意识形态中一个深受拥护的支柱，保护本国农民，维持食品价格高位。
So, basically, when Peale the Corn Laws were a hugely sort of beloved pillar of of Tory ideology, protecting domestic farmers and far keeping prices of food high.
而皮尔废除了《谷物法》，本质上是政治自杀，因为他认为城市里的人应该从国外获得便宜的粮食。
And Peel repeals the Corn Laws, basically committing political suicide because he thinks that people in the cities should get cheap food from abroad.
而且，这也发生在爱尔兰饥荒的背景下，对吧？
And also, this is against the backdrop of the of famine in Ireland as well, isn't it?
是的。
Yeah.
当然，他另外一点正是如此。
And, of course, the other thing that he's exactly.
当然，他被铭记的另一件事是警察。
And, of course, the other thing he's remembered for is the police.
所以是鲍比，你知道的，大都会警察。
So Bobby's, you know, the Metropolitan Police.
所以皮尔有两件大事让人铭记。
So Peale has two big things sort of in his favor that people remember.
现在，对我来说，沃波尔应该进入半决赛。
Now Walpole, to me, Walpole should be a semifinalist.
我毫不怀疑沃波尔位列前四，因为在汉诺威王朝初期，沃波尔建立了稳定，创立了首相职位。
I mean, there's no doubt in my mind that Walpole is in the top four, because he founded the office of prime minister At the beginning of the kind of Hanoverian succession, Warpole establishes stability.
他担任首相长达二十一年。
He he's prime minister for twenty one years.
但他确实
But he's
是个大骗子，不是吗？
a massive crook, isn't he?
他确实是个骗子。
He is a crook.
我的意思是，十八世纪的政治圈里，谁不是骗子呢？
But, I mean, who isn't a crook in eighteenth century politics?
我的意思是，这简直就是一种……一种
I mean, that's just a sort of lude that's a that's
即使按照十八世纪早期的标准，说他是骗子也太过分了，他确实被公认为贪腐之徒。
that's a ludicrous allegation to Even even by the standards of the early eighteenth century, he's regarded as a crook.
但我认为他有很多贡献，比如让我们避开了许多外国战争。
But I think there's much I mean, he keeps us out of lots of foreign wars.
他知道，英国相比之前的时代，变得极其稳定。
He has you know, Britain is extremely stable, you know, by comparison to what's come before.
我的意思是，如果你在1721年成为首相，这是一个全新的职位。
I mean, you think what's come if you're becoming prime minister in 1721, it's a new office.
你刚迎来一位德国君主。
You've just got this German monarch over.
你是在反对他
It's against him you're
回到拉丁文了。
back in Latin.
是的。
Yes.
太不可思议了。
Extraordinary.
太不可思议了。
Extraordinary.
对。
Yeah.
而在几乎就在人们记忆中的背景下，你经历了革命，你知道的，光荣革命，一位国王被赶下台。
And against the backdrop of in pretty pretty much in living memory, you've had a revolute you know, the glorious revolution, one king being kicked out.
你背后还潜藏着内战，还有法国崛起成为超级大国等种种情况。
You have the civil war lurking behind all that, and you have the rise of, you know, France as the great superpower and all this.
沃尔波尔在这个某种程度上的黄金时代掌权，对于这个新生的联合王国而言。
And Walpole presides over this sort of this this golden age in some ways, for the new United Kingdom.
你知道，大不列颠是一个在1707年才新成立的国家。
You know, it's in Great Britain is a new country formed in seventeen o seven.
这一切都是一项了不起的成就。
And all of that is a is a tremendous achievement.
我敢肯定他中饱私囊，但当时所有人都这么做。
I'm sure he lined his pockets, but they all did.
而且，我认为他应该被列入顶尖人物之中。
And, you know, I think he should I think he should be in the top.
说实话，我认为他应该排在英国首相的第二或第三位。
I think he should be two or three, to be honest, in British Prime Minister.
但他被描绘成《乞丐歌剧》中的霍伊曼，他说过，随后他引入了宫廷大臣对戏剧的审查制度。
But he's portrayed as, Howiemann in in the Beggars Opera, and he said plus about that that he then brings in the, what is it, the Lord Chamberlain censoring plays.
是的。
Yeah.
我不介意那样。
I I don't mind that.
你知道的，我相当专制。
I'm quite authoritarian, as you know.
所以。
So
我不介意。
I I I don't mind.
我是个顽固派。
I I wiggery.
他将辉格主义确立为十八世纪英国的绝对统治信条，并定义了十八世纪的英国政治。
He enshrines wiggishness as the absolute governing creed of eighteenth century Britain, and he defines British politics in the eighteenth century.
他拥有精美的瓷器，我见过他的瓷器。
He had he had beautiful porcelain, and I've seen his porcelain.
你知道我在哪里看到的吗？
Do you know where I saw it?
你知道它在哪里吗？
Do you know where it is?
我根本想象不到。
I can't possibly imagine.
它在圣彼得堡的冬宫。
It's in the Hermitage in Saint Petersburg.
里克，毛毡杆。
Rick, throbber wool poles.
是的。
Yeah.
所以他在诺福克的霍顿大厅拥有一批惊人的艺术收藏，后来全部卖给了叶卡捷琳娜大帝。
So so he had an amazing art collection in Houghton Hall in Norfolk, and then it all got sold to, Catherine the Great.
这真是一个有趣的事实。
That's a very interesting fact.
非常有趣。
Very interesting.
而且我觉得几年前这些东西又回到了霍顿大厅。
And I think it went back to Houghton Hall, a couple of years ago.
当它们在那里时，我一直在想，我一定要去看看。
And I spent all the time it was there, I was thinking, I must go and see it.
我一定要去看看，但后来我完全忘了去参观。
I must go and see it, and then I completely forgot to go and see it.
所以机会白白错过了，但我已经在冬宫见过它们了。
So an opportunity wasted, but I had seen it in the Hermitage.
所以那是
So that was
这真是一个来自电视的精彩故事。
What a what a great story there from, from TV somewhere.
罗达·特里，我们来谈谈专家观点。
Ronda Tree, we've got punditry.
罗伯特·皮尔带有斯塔福德郡口音。
Robert Peel had a Staffordshire accent.
这又是另一件好事。
That's another good thing.
所以皮尔是长期以来最后几位拥有非标准英音的首相之一。
So Peele is one of the last prime ministers really for a very long time to have a non RP accent.
在某个时间点之后，所有后来的首相都上过公学，说着相同的方式。
And there's a point at which, obviously, all prime ministers after that are going to public school, and they're all speaking the same way.
但他有着地域口音。
But he's he's got a regional accent.
皮尔去了哈罗公学，在那里他与拜伦成了朋友。
Peel went to Harrow, where he was friends with Byron.
是的。
Yeah.
但他显然保留了
But, obviously, he kept
他显然没有学会。
his Obviously, he didn't pick it up.
然后他提出了《塔姆沃思宣言》，对吧？
And then he gets So this is the Tamworth Manifesto, doesn't he?
这是英国历史上第一份政治宣言，确实如此。
Which is the first political manifesto in He does indeed.
在英国历史上。
In British history.
所以我们之前提到了格莱斯顿，稍后我们会在另一期播客中再回到格莱斯顿。
So somebody we're talking about Gladstone early, and we'll come back to Gladstone in another podcast.
但有人在网上分享了一个片段。
But somebody was sharing a clip online.
有一段格莱斯顿讲话的录音，有人声称他带有利物浦口音，但其实并没有。
There's a there's a recording of Gladstone speaking, there's this claim that Gladstone spoke with a Liverpool accent, and he doesn't.
他听起来完全不像，你知道的，里基·汤姆林斯。
I I he sounds nothing like, you know, Ricky Tomlins.
想象一下没有财产。
Imagine no possessions.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
所以那是沃尔波尔和皮尔。
So that's Walpole and Peel.
而最后一个则是劳合·乔治对阵哈罗德·威尔逊。
And then the final one was, Lloyd George against Harold Wilson.
你已经对哈罗德·威尔逊不礼貌了，还提前透露了结果。
You've already been rude about Harold Wilson and given away the result.
所以没演出。
So no show.
劳合·乔治以60%的得票率赢了。
Lloyd George won that 60%.
是的。
Yeah.
也许我们谈到四分之一决赛时再聊劳合·乔治。
Maybe come to Lloyd George when when we talk about the the quarterfinals.
但我们还是先说威尔逊吧。
But Let's do Wilson.
我们说威尔逊吧。
Let's do Wilson.
好。
Yeah.
我们说威尔逊吧。
Let's do Wilson.
所以有些人很喜欢威尔逊，对吧？
So some people love Wilson, don't they?
有些人很喜欢威尔逊。
Some people love Wilson.
我的意思是，我写过很多关于哈罗德·威尔逊的东西。
I mean, I've written a lot about Harold Wilson.
你知道，我基本上已经写了数十万字关于哈罗德·威尔逊的内容。
You know, I've I've basically written hundreds of thousands of words about Harold Wilson.
我总觉得他会是个很好的隔壁邻居。
And I always think he would be a great person to have as your next door neighbor.
你知道，他为什么是这样？
You know, he's a Why is that?
他是个好人。
He's a nice guy.
他会借给你割草机。
He'd lend you his lawnmower.
是的
Yeah.
他是个很好的伙伴。
He's he's he's good company.
你知道，你可以去他那儿，他会拿出白兰地酒瓶。
You know, you could go around, and he'd get out the brandy bottle.
他知识渊博。
He has a great knowledge.
他其实非常适合这个播客，因为他对琐碎细节了如指掌。
He'd be great on this podcast, actually, because he had a great knowledge of minutiae.
当罗伊·詹金斯担任财政大臣时，他和罗伊·詹金斯因为对火车时刻表的共同热爱而建立了深厚联系，两人都热衷于此。
He and Roy Jenkins, when Roy Jenkins was a chancellor, they bonded over their knowledge of railway timetables, which for which they were both enthusiasts.
他当上首相的时候不是挺年轻的吗？
Wasn't he was very young, wasn't he, when he became fuck.
他大概十岁左右就当上了。
He was about 10 or something when he became Yeah.
当他成为贸易委员会主席时。
When he became president of the board of trade.
没错。
That's right.
是的。
Yeah.
他留着一副糟糕的胡子，那是他在二十世纪四十年代留的，为了让自己看起来更成熟。
And he had this terrible mustache, which he grew in the nineteen forties to make himself appear to make himself appear more mature.
据说他在牛津读本科时，取得了经济学有史以来最高的分数，那是在三十年代。
He had got supposedly the best degree in economics or something, the best mark in economics that Oxford had ever seen when he was and and he was at Oxford in the thirties.
我认为那是三十年代，当时别人都去参加共产主义集会或鸡尾酒会，而威尔逊被邀请参加这类活动时，他说：‘不了，谢谢。’
I think it's the thirties at a time when, you know, everybody else was going to sort of communist meetings and and and cocktail parties, and and Wilson was asked to go to one of these, he said, Noel, thank you very much.
我来这里是为了工作。
I came here to work.
而且
And
而且基本上就是你理想中的人。
and basically Man after your own heart.
还有所有的，是的。
And all the yes.
没错。
Exactly.
而且他许多工党同事实际上都瞧不起他，觉得他太庸俗。
And all his sort of a lot of his labor colleagues actually looked down on him because they saw him as too middle brow.
他读阿加莎·克里斯蒂的小说。
He read Agatha Christie.
他打高尔夫。
He played golf.
他吃罐头三文鱼，而不是烟熏的。
He ate tin salmon rather than smoked.
他有着这些非常平凡的习惯，而这当然让他深受普通选民的喜爱，因为人们在威尔逊身上看到了自己的影子。
He had these sort of very humdrum habits, which, of course, endeared him hugely to ordinary voters because people saw in Wilson somebody like himself.
我总是认为威尔逊是工党的绝佳典范。
I always think Wilson is a great model for the Labour Party.
你知道，如果你选像威尔逊这样的人，他其实和艾德礼没多大区别。
You know, if you pick somebody like Will I mean, he's not that dissimilar from Attlee.
有点小写的保守派，爱国，普通。
Sort of small c conservative, patriotic, ordinary.
他把自身的平凡当作一种美德，并且特意强调是保守党才不寻常，因为他们富有且娇生惯养，而我只是个普通人。
He's he makes a virtue of his own ordinariness, and he he goes out of his way to say it's the Tories who are extraordinary because they're rich and spoiled, and and I'm just like you.
他并不特别强调意识形态。
I'm not you know, he didn't make a a great point of ideology.
所以当他委托曾为蒙巴顿写传记的菲利普·齐格勒担任他的官方传记作者时，齐格勒对他说：我很想接手，但有个问题。
So when he commissioned Philip Ziegler, the biographer of Mountbatten, to be his to be his authorized biographer, Ziegler said to him, you know, I'd love to do it, there's one problem.
我不是社会主义者。
I I'm not a socialist.
威尔逊说：哦，别担心。
And Wilson said, oh, don't worry.
我也不是。
Neither am I.
这种态度，他的许多支持者反而因此对他不满。
And that sort of thing, which basically, a lot of his own activists held against him.
我认为这种特质让他赢得了普通选民的好感。
I think that kind of thing endeared him to to ordinary voters.
好的。
Okay.
我有个问题想问你，我们周四要推出一档播客，和本·麦金泰尔聊聊间谍与情报的历史。
I've got a question for you, which is flagging up a podcast we're going to do on we're going out on Thursday with Ben McIntyre about the history of espionage and spying.
是的。
Yeah.
威尔逊认为自己被军情五处监听，对吧？
Wilson thought that he was being bugged by MI five, didn't he?
没错。
He did.
嗯，实际上，这真的非常不清楚。
Well, really, and it's it's really, really unclear.
所以威尔逊在第二个任期内表现得相当糟糕，我认为这可能是我们这一代人中最为糟糕的首相领导时期，从1974年到1976年。
So Wilson does in his second time in office, which is pretty shabby, and I would say it's probably the worst period of prime ministerial leadership in our lifetimes, '74 to '76.
他似乎变得非常、非常多疑。
He does seem to have got very, very paranoid.
他认为自己被南非的情报机构BOSS监听了。
He thought he was being bugged by the South Africans, by BOSS, the South African spy agency.
他还觉得，你知道，有很多这样的传闻。
And he also thinks you know, there's lots of stories
这个情报机构叫BOSS。
spy agency was called BOSS.
是的。
Yeah.
简直难以置信。
Unbelievably.
太棒了。
That's brilliant.
太棒了。
Brilliant.
我认为是国家安全部。
Bureau of State Security, I think it is.
天哪。
Goodness.
我学到了新东西。
I've learned something.
所以像雪莉·威廉姆斯这样的人会讲述这些故事。
And so the stories people like Shirley Williams tell these stories.
他们说，他会带他们去餐厅或内阁会议室，指着一幅格莱斯顿的画像，说来也奇怪。
They say he would take them into the sort of the dining room or the cabinet room, and he'd point to a picture of Gladstone, funnily enough.
他会指着格莱斯顿的画像说，这幅肖像被窃听了。
And he'd say, point to Gladstone, and he'd say, that portrait is bugged.
他们通过格莱斯顿监视我，或者通过格莱斯顿监听我。
They're watching me through Gladstone, or they're listening to me through Gladstone.
或者他会带人去洗手间，说我们只能在这里谈话，打开水龙头，诸如此类的事情。
Or he'd take people into the toilets and say, we can only talk here, you put on the taps, all this sort of stuff.
我的意思是，这些事情真的发生过。
I mean, this actually this genuinely happened.
现在，他的一些部长认为这疯了。
Now some of his ministers thought this was demented.
而且他
And And he
他任职期间确实患有痴呆症，对吧？
did have he had dementia, didn't he, while he was in office?
嗯，这还不清楚。
Well, it's unclear.
也许吧。
Perhaps.
但可能是在最后一个月。
But possibly in the final month.
当然，他的思维、他的记忆
Certainly, his mind, his memory
这并不令人惊讶。
Wasn't a shock.
已经不像以前那样了。
Was not what it was.
他向他的助手们，比如乔·海恩斯和伯纳德·多纳休——他最亲近的助手——也说过这样的话：我实在没什么可说的。
And he said as much to his aides, to Joe Haines and Bernard Donahue, who his closest aides, he would say, I don't really have anything to say.
我想不起来这件事了。
I can't remember about this.
你知道的？
You know?
我已经不是原来的我了。
I'm not what I was.
所以这是有可能的。
So it's it's possible.
他们是否系统性地监听他？
Were they were they systematically bugging him?
我认为不是。
I think not.
但我认为里面确实有特工。
But I think there were agents within it.
我的意思是，五处当年是一群杂乱无章、破破烂烂的人，实际上在七十年代，他们简直就像电影里那种人。
I mean, m I five was a pretty ramshackle, shabby array I mean, they're very Lacarry like actually in the seventies.
还有像彼得·赖特这样的人，他写了《间谍捕手》这本书，这些人有点偏执，有点《每日快报》式的思维，觉得威尔逊是共产党，他们到处散布言论——当泰德·希思被问到这事时，他说，五处的人疯到看见有人在地铁上看《每日镜报》，就认定那人一定是共产党。
And there were people like Peter Wright, who wrote the book Spycatcher, who were kind of paranoid, you know, slightly daily express ish kind of they thought Wilson was a red, and they were kind of going around saying I mean, when Ted Heath was asked about this, Ted Heath said he said, basically, the people in MI five are so mad that when they see somebody on the tube reading the Daily Mirror, they say, he must be a communist.
我们必须派人跟踪他。
We must we must have him followed.
因此，显然在整个政治光谱中，人们都感到五处有点失控。
So clearly, across the political spectrum, there was a sense that MI five was slightly out of control.
所以威尔逊很可能察觉到了些什么。
So Wilson was probably on to to something.
所以MI5一定会很高兴威尔逊在失利中被淘汰了，是的。
So MI five will be pleased that that Wilson was knocked out losing Yes.
60%对劳合·乔治。
60% to Lloyd George.
我认为我们已经结束了小组比赛。
And I think that we've that wraps up the the group matches.
好的。
Okay.
那么我们只剩下四分之一决赛了，那就是
So so we we're left with the the quarterfinals, which was
四分之一决赛充满了非凡的戏剧性。
Extraordinary drama in the quarterfinals.
四分之一决赛的对阵是：皮尔对小皮特，劳合·乔治对艾德礼，迪斯雷利对格莱斯顿，丘吉尔对阿斯奎斯。
So the quarterfinals are Peel against Pitt the Younger, Lloyd George against Attlee, Disraeli against Gladstone, Churchill against Asquith.
接下来是半决赛，然后当然是决赛。
We then have the semifinals and then, of course, the final.
我们会逐一分析这些比赛。
And we will go through those various matches.
我们会深入观察这些轮次中对决的巨人们，进行细致分析，呈现你期待从多米尼克这样的人那里听到的所有体育评论。
We will look at, the titans who were playing in those rounds, close-up analysis, all the kind of sports punditry that you'd expect from someone like Dominic.
我们还会把这些内容整理成第二期《总理世界杯》播客，明天发布。
And we will, be putting that into, a second Prime Ministerial World Cup podcast, which will be going out tomorrow.
所以，我们暂时就到这里。
So, that is it from us for now.
我们将在明天的播客中继续跟进这场激动人心的体育赛事。
We will follow through this thrilling sporting contest in tomorrow's podcast.
再见。
Bye bye.
再见。
Bye bye.
感谢收听《余史》。
Thanks for listening to the rest is history.
如需获取独家剧集、提前收听、无广告体验以及加入我们的聊天社区，请前往 restishistorypod.com 注册。
For bonus episodes, early access, ad free listening, and access to our chat community, please sign up at restishistorypod.com.
网址是 restishistorypod.com。
That's restishistorypod.com.
特洛伊、奥德赛、伊利亚特——所有这些伟大的古代史诗，都描绘了三千年前摧毁了相互关联帝国的巨大崩溃。
Troy, the Odyssey, the Iliad, all of these great ancient epics depict a monumental collapse that destroyed the interconnected empires of three thousand years ago.
要了解荷马在事件发生四百年后所描述的青铜时代浩劫，请订阅同属 Goal Hanger 播客的《帝国世界史》，我们将深入探讨古代历史上最重大的帝国崩溃。
And to understand the Bronze Age apocalypse that Homer wrote about four hundred years after it happened, subscribe to Empire World History, a fellow goal hanger podcast where we are deep diving into the biggest imperial collapse in ancient history.
为了感受本系列的风格，这里为您播放一段我们与史蒂芬·弗莱对话的片段。
To get a flavor of the series, here is a clip from our episode with none other than Stephen Fry.
这是我最喜爱的主题之一——希腊人的故事，特洛伊围城，以及奥德修斯的归乡。
It is one of my favorite subjects, the story of the Greeks, and the siege of Troy and Odysseus' return home, of course.
我说的是希腊人。
I say Greeks.
荷马称他们为阿开亚人、达那安人、阿尔戈斯人。
Homer called them the Achaeans, the Danaans, the Argives.
‘希腊人’这个词是后来才出现的，但实际上指的是迈锡尼人，那个武士贵族阶层，本质上痴迷于谁是赫拉克勒斯，你知道的，追求荣耀。
The word Greeks is a much later one, but it refers really to the Mycenaeans, that warrior aristocracy, essentially, obsessed with who's Hercules, you know, hearer's glory.
他实际上被命名为赫拉克勒斯，因为她恨他，因为他宙斯的私生子，而她从不喜欢宙斯的私生子——她那个不忠的丈夫。
She he was actually named Heracles because she hated him because he was a love child of Zeus, and she never liked Zeus' love child, her husband, her errant husband.
因此，为了安抚她，塔乌里乌斯因为赫拉克勒斯出生在底比斯，建议他从婴儿时期就改名为赫拉克勒斯，意为‘赫拉的荣耀’。
And so as an attempt to placate her Taurisius, because he was born in Thebes, suggested that he change his name, his as a baby, this was, to Heracles, the glory of Hera.
但这并没有多大帮助。
But it didn't help much.
根本毫无帮助。
It didn't help at all.
雅典娜甚至趁赫拉熟睡时，把他放到赫拉的乳房上，因为如果他吸吮她的乳汁，就能让他们建立纽带。
And then Athena even even put her on Hera's breast when Hera was asleep because it would bond them if he suckled her milk.
但赫拉醒来后看到这一幕，便把他甩开，她的乳汁洒向天空，形成了银河。
But she woke and saw it and tossed him away, and her breast milk spread across the sky to form the Milky Way.
我不知道这个故事。
I didn't know that story.
因为‘galaxi’当然源自希腊语中的‘牛奶’。
Because galaxi, of course, is from the Greek for for milk.
Galactic 就像 lactic（乳酸的）。
Galactic as in lactic.
对。
Right.
所以巧克力制造商说得对。
So the chocolate makers are right.
无论如何，这是完全不同的事。
Anyway, this is completely separate.
真棒。
Lovely.
克勒奥斯。
Kleos.
继续说。
Keep going.
别停。
Don't stop.
这个
The
我们真的很希望你喜欢这个片段。
Well, we really hope you enjoyed that clip.
想了解更多关于青铜时代末日及其如何塑造古希腊史诗的内容，请在你收听播客的平台订阅《帝国》。
Hear more on the Bronze Age apocalypse and how it shaped the ancient Greek epics, just subscribe to Empire wherever you get your podcasts.
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