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你好。
Hello.
欢迎来到余下的历史。
Welcome to the rest is history.
在我们这档特别播客系列的第二期中，回顾本赛季的体育盛事——余下的历史世界杯。
In the second of our special podcast looking back at the sporting event of the season, the rest is history prime ministers world cup.
在第一期播客中，我们回顾了第一轮比赛，大多数比赛的结果都完全如预期般发展。
Now in the first podcast, we look back at the first round of games, most of which went entirely as expected.
但随后，多亏了不知疲倦的乔纳森·威尔逊，他为我们抽签并进行了赛中分析，抽签结果在四分之一决赛中产生了几场史诗级对决，我们也见证了不止一次的冷门。
But then, thanks to the indefatigable Jonathan Wilson, who did the draw for us and did a bit of, mid tournament punditry, the draw threw up some titanic clashes in the quarterfinals, and we had more than a few shocks.
汤姆·霍兰德，这确实是本届赛事真正的关键阶段，对吧？
Tom Holland, this was the real business end of the tournament, wasn't it?
当你进入四分之一决赛时，热血沸腾，心跳加速。
When you get to the quarterfinals, the the blood is flowing, the heart is pumping.
空气中弥漫着巨大的紧张感。
There's that immense sense of tension in the air.
你一定很喜欢。
You must have loved it.
我真的很喜欢。
I really did.
我真的很喜欢。
I really did.
当然，球迷们都在谈论的那场世纪对决，正是我们早就知道一旦出现就会发生的比赛——因为我们谈论的是首相体育史上可能最伟大的对抗之一：本杰明·迪斯雷利对阵威廉·赫维特·格莱斯顿。
And, of course, what the fans are all talking about, a clash for the ages, was the match that we knew if it came about was going to be because we're talking about one of probably the greatest rivalry in prime ministerial sporting history, Benjamin Disraeli against William Hewitt Gladstone.
这是大家期待的抽签结果，而它真的发生了。
It was the draw that people wanted to happen, and it happened.
太惊人了。
Amazing.
谢谢，幸运女神。
Just thank you, lady luck.
是的。
Yes.
那场比赛其实很棒，不是吗？
It was a great match, actually, wasn't it?
那场比赛很棒，因为是谁领先了？
It was a great match because who took the lead?
我觉得是格莱斯顿领先了，对吧？
Gladstone took the lead, I think, didn't he?
是的。
Yep.
格莱斯顿领先了。
Gladstone took the lead.
然后迪斯雷利反超了，迪斯雷利取得了领先。
And then Disraeli came back, Disraeli went into the lead.
对。
Yeah.
而且一直保持领先了很长时间。
And held the lead for a hell of a long time.
整个晚上，格莱斯顿逐渐追回了比分，最终以54%的得票率获胜。
Gradually, over the course of the evening, Gladstone clawed it back, and he ended up winning by 54%.
这听起来像是一个决定性的优势，但其实并没有那么明显。
That sounds quite a a decisive margin, but it really wasn't.
那场比赛就是一直在来回拉锯，反反复复。
It that was a match that that just kinda just went backwards backwards and and forwards.
前进。
Forwards.
那场对决真正有趣的地方在于，这是我们所有历史世界杯对决中，唯一一场真正抓住了人们想象力的比赛。
So what was really fun about that was that was the one match I mean, of all our rest is history World Cup matches, that was the one match that really seemed to catch people's imagination.
于是，连那些可能从来都没听过这个播客的人，也都蜂拥而至，急着投票。
So you got people piling in who probably never even listened to the podcast, desperate to vote.
我看到有人在推特上喊：加油，迪斯雷利的粉丝们。
And I could see people on Twitter saying, come on, Disraeli fans.
有人发帖说：快看，那个讨厌的性工作者混蛋格莱斯顿快要赢了。
That that was somebody put that that that sex worker bothering bastard Gladstone is about to is about to win.
而且人们，你知道的，情绪真的相当高涨。
And people, you know, passions were genuinely kinda running high.
我简直不敢相信，人们竟然会投票给格莱斯顿或者迪斯雷利。
People I I can't believe that people are voting at Gladstone or for Disraeli.
我当时正忙着追《卧底》这部剧。
I was I was I I was I'm the busy catching up with Line of Duty, really.
他周日要出场，所以我得一口气看完大约五集。
He's going out on Sunday, so I'm having to cram in about five episodes.
这部剧真的很上瘾。
And it's it's very addictive.
简直让人移不开眼睛，但说实话，每十分钟我就得看一眼手机，查一下比分，然后向完全不感兴趣的家庭成员更新情况，但我还是坚持告诉他们。
I mean, hard to tell your eyes away, but honestly, every ten minutes, I was checking my phone to look at the score with that and updating my family who had no interest in it whatsoever, but I was still keeping them informed.
现在，汤姆，对于那些没听上一期播客的听众来说，如果你以为
Now, Tom, for listeners who didn't listen to the last edition of this podcast, and you think
他们根本不知道我们在说什么。
They've got no idea what we're talking about.
完全疯了。
Completely nuts and mad.
我应该说，按照你的建议，我们实际上在推特上组织了一场世界杯投票。
I should say that we at your suggestion, actually, we organized a World Cup on Twitter where people could vote.
我们进行了一系列淘汰赛，人们可以投票选出——我记不清我们有没有称它为‘最伟大的首相’。
And we had a series of knockout rounds where people could basically vote for I can't remember what we we we didn't call it the greatest prime minister.
我们只是称之为‘首相世界杯’，标准故意很模糊，对吧？
We just called it the prime ministerial World Cup, so the criteria were deliberately vague, weren't they?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yep.
人们有一天时间投票，首相们通过这一系列淘汰赛晋级。
And people sort of had the day to vote, and prime ministers went through in this series of knockout rounds.
迪斯雷利和格莱斯顿的对决显然最能激发人们的兴趣，但这并不是因为人们对19世纪70年代的政治有浓厚兴趣，而是因为它触及了我们如何记忆历史人物的核心。
And the Disraeli Gladstone one was the one that clearly caught the imagination, not because people have a very keen interest in eighteen seventies politics, but because it cuts to the heart of the way that we remember figures in history.
因为这一切都关乎投射，关乎历史人物所承载的文化包袱。
Because it's all about it's all about sort of projection, and it's all about the kind of cultural baggage that historical characters have.
所以，如果你喜欢那些张扬、有趣、爱国、充满冒险精神却又有点不可靠的历史人物，那么迪斯雷利就是你的选择。
So if you like your historical characters flamboyant and fun and patriotic and sort of swashbuckling and a little bit dodgy, then Disraeli is your man.
而如果你喜欢正直、虔诚、道德楷模、严肃认真的那种类型，那你就会转向格莱斯顿。
Whereas if you like them upstanding, pious, you know, figure of rectitude, serious, moral, all of that sort of stuff, then you you turn to Gladstone.
这些刻板印象至今仍然具有吸引力。
And they still those archetypes still have attraction in them.
因为我觉得，每当约翰逊在首相质询时间站起来面对斯塔默时，这些刻板印象就浮现出来了。
Because I mean, I think that it it those archetypes are kind of present whenever Johnson stands up to confront Starman at prime minister's question time.
而且我认为，在爱丁堡持续进行的亚历克斯·萨尔蒙德与尼古拉·斯特金之间的较量中，这些刻板印象也同样存在。
And I think that they're also there in the ongoing clash in Edinburgh between Alex Salmon and Nicholas Sturgeon.
我觉得，这些可以说是英国政治中永恒的原型。
I think that, you know, these are, if you like, the kind of timeless archetypes of British politics.
归根结底，这不就是圆颅党与骑士党的对立吗？
It's round heads and cavaliers, ultimately, isn't it?
我的意思是，从很久以前开始
I mean, going all the
一直追溯到那时。
way back.
所以，是的，绝对是传世对决。
So, yes, definitely, definitely a match for the ages.
我们在第一集中讨论过迪斯雷利，那一集已经发布了，我希望你们已经听过了。
So we talked about Disraeli in, the first episode, which, has gone out already, and I hope you've already listened to.
如果你还没听，并且想更多了解迪斯雷利，不妨去听一下。
If you haven't and you want to know more about Disraeli, do check that out.
那么，我们来谈谈格莱斯顿吧，他才是真正的大明星，我认为。
So let's get on to Gladstone who really was the star performer, I think.
我的意思是，我认为他凭借自己的表现，不仅在英国，而且在全球范围内都俘获了体育迷的心。
I mean, I I think he captured the imaginations of sports fans, not just here in Britain, but around the world with his his progress.
因为每场比赛都艰难、艰苦、耗尽心力，而格莱斯顿总能脱颖而出。
Because every match was tough, hard, grueling, and Gladstone emerged from it.
正如你所料，这是一个通过砍树来放松的人。
Just as you might expect, this is a man who, relaxed by chopping down trees.
是的。
Yeah.
翻译荷马。
Translating Homer.
翻译荷马。
Translating Homer.
这是一个以严肃认真方式寻找乐趣的人。
This is a man who, yes, who who who who takes his fun in a kind of tough, earnest way.
而在这种级别的运动中，这本质上正是你需要的，不是吗？
And that's essentially, at this level of sport is what you need, isn't it?
对。
Yeah.
我的意思是，格莱斯顿完全体现了维多利亚时代的精神，不是吗？
I mean, the thing with Gladstone, Gladstone absolutely incarnates the Victorian age, doesn't he?
他就是维多利亚时代的化身，因为他如此拘谨，可以说他是那位德高望重的老者，GOM。
He is Victorianism because he's so stiff, and he's so I mean, he's the grand old man, the G O M.
尽管维多利亚女王讨厌他，但女王维多利亚总是说
Although Victoria hated him, which is always Queen Victoria said
她跟他说话时，就好像他是一场公众集会一样。
she addressed him as though she were a public meeting.
而且对他许多同僚来说，他确实是那种在很多方面堪称怪物的人物。
And and to to actually many of his own colleagues, you know, he's one of those characters that he's a monster in many ways.
他是一个近乎史诗般的怪物。
He's a sort of titanic monster.
他是那种像玛格丽特·撒切尔、纳尔逊、丘吉尔或亨利八世一样的人物，超凡脱俗，充满自我重要感，认为自己就是时代的化身。
He's one of those characters like Margaret Thatcher or like Nelson or like Churchill or Henry the eighth, who's sort of larger than life, supremely got it suffused with a sense of their own importance and and sees themselves as it.
是的。
Yeah.
他为自己辩护，认为自己体现了时代的精神，而他确实如此。
And justifies it and carry and sees themselves as incarnating the spirit of the age, which he does.
我的意思是，如果你想想最近关于维多利亚时代的作品。
I mean, if you think think about recent books on the Victorians.
西蒙·赫弗几年前写了一本书，叫《高 minds》，讲的是英国政治中格莱斯顿时代的那段时期，他说那是英国公共服务的巅峰，而格莱斯顿正是这种精神的化身。
So Simon Heffer wrote a book a couple of years ago called High Minds about the the sort of Gladstonian moment in in British politics in which he says this was a sort of high point of of British public service, and and Gladstone incarnates that.
你知道，格莱斯顿有着强烈的基督教责任感，这体现在他所有的公务员改革以及其他类似举措中。
You know, Gladstone has this tremendous sense of Christian duty, which is, you know, reflected in all his civil service reforms and and all that sort of thing.
但当然，这也体现在大家对格莱斯顿记忆深刻的另一件事上，那就是他纠缠妓女的行为，那种……
But, of course, it's also reflected in the other thing about Gladstone that everybody remembers, which is the the the bothering of sex workers, the sort of
你管这叫纠缠？
the the The well, you call it bothering.
别人可能会说是改革。
Others might call it reforming.
是的。
Yes.
好吧，改革。
Well, reforming.
我的意思是，但现在这个词承载了太多含义，不是吗？
I mean, that is but see, that's so loaded now, isn't it?
我的意思是，也许人们并不想被改造，或者他们根本不需要被改造。
I mean, maybe people don't want to be reformed or maybe they don't need to be.
他们并没有堕落，也不需要被救赎。
They're not fallen, and they don't need to be redeemed.
但正如很多人所知，格莱斯顿会乔装打扮，悄悄走上街头，试图改造他遇到的妓女。
But, anyway, as a lot of people will know, Gladstone would, you know, go sort of tram the streets incognito to try and sort of reform prostitutes that he met on the streets.
然后他会回家，鞭打自己。
And then he'd go back home, and he would beat himself.
是的。
Yeah.
这真是一个充满趣味的心理瞬间，尤其对于那些欣赏人性怪癖的人来说，同时也让人感受到这个人内心深处的痛苦与挣扎。
That is a, you know, it's a delicious kind of psychological moment for people who appreciate human quirks, but it also gives you a sense of the sort of intense tortured psychology of the man.
但我的意思是，我认为他和那种自诩为女权主义者、结果却被揭发是性骚扰者的男人并不等同，对吧？
But I I mean, I don't think he's equivalent to kind of, know, the the the self proclaimed feminist guy who then turns out to be a a sex pest that you might No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
你知道，这在今天是一种陈词滥调。
You know, it's kind of a trope today.
我的意思是，他确实真心想帮助那些堕落的女性获得救赎。
I mean, he really he he he really did want to do good by the redeemed fallen women.
他并没有骚扰或猥亵她们。
He he wasn't molesting them or or or groping them.
而且，据说是以色列人说，他根本没有一丝可取之处？
And, I mean, it's Israeli, isn't it, who says that he he had not a single redeeming defect?
是的。
Yeah.
这其实很好地概括了这一点。
Which is kind of sums it up really.
我的意思是，他的正直几乎到了令人压抑的程度。
I mean, he's almost too his rectitude is oppressive.
确实令人压抑。
It is oppressive.
我觉得很多人——我觉得他的许多同事随着时间推移都感受到了这一点。
And I think a lot of people I I think a lot of his colleagues found that as time went on.
所以到了19世纪90年代，有关他那些自由派内阁同僚、尤其是年轻一代的记载很多。
So there's all these accounts of them sort of by the eighteen nineties, his liberal cabinet colleagues, often the younger ones.
我的意思是，对这些人来说，格莱斯顿是德高望重的长者。
I mean, Gladstone is to them the grand old man.
他们确实感到一种压力。
They really do feel a press plan.
就像坐在一张桌子旁，周围都是校长。
It's like being sat around a table with the headmaster.
是的。
And Yes.
你知道，当他最终卸任时，其中很多人——很多人为他痛哭流涕。
You know, they when he goes, when he finally leaves office, some of them a lot of them are in floods of tears.
我的意思是，这就像俄罗斯当斯大林去世时的那种场景。
Mean, I it's like those sort of scenes in Russia when Stalin died or something.
他们
They're
对。
Yeah.
他们其实很高兴，但忍不住哭泣，因为这似乎标志着英国生活中一个伟大支柱的消失。
They're delighted, but they can't help sobbing because it seems like this great fixture of British life has has disappeared.
但当然，多米尼克，曾经也有过格莱斯顿还年轻的时候。
But, of course, Dominic, there was a time where where Gladstone was a young man.
作为一个年轻人，他不仅仅是个托利党人。
And as a young man, he was I mean, wasn't just a Tory.
他是个极端保守的托利党人。
He was a a reactionary Tory.
他非常热衷于维护，比如爱尔兰国教的权利。
And he was so he was he was, very keen on upholding, for instance, the rights of the established church in Ireland.
是的。
Yes.
当然，从长远来看，他最出名的是推动给予爱尔兰自治的尝试。
And, of course, in the long run, what he becomes most famous for is his pushing through attempt to give Ireland home rule.
我觉得在这场辩论中，这一点非常有趣。
And I thought that it was really interesting in this match.
有来自爱尔兰的人引用了迪斯雷利，而迪斯雷利曾对爱尔兰人极尽辱骂之能事，但他们却说，让我们支持格莱斯顿。
I there were there were people from Ireland quoting Disraeli who was incredibly abusive about the Irish and saying, let's get behind let's get behind Gladstone.
所以
So
是的。
Yeah.
我看到了。
I saw that.
我们当时涌进了大量爱尔兰选票，对吧？
We had a flood of Irish votes, didn't we?
我们没有注意到的是，格莱斯顿最近因为利物浦大学而上了新闻。
What we didn't have, which is so interesting, is that Gladstone has been in the news recently because he's been by Liverpool University.
他的名字被移除了，因为他是利物浦的伟大儿子之一，是这座城市最著名的人物之一，尽管学生希望保留他的名字，许多学者也认为移除他的名字非常荒谬。
So his name has been taken he's a great son of Liverpool, one of their most famous sons, and his name has been taken off a a hall of residence at Liverpool despite the fact that the students want him to stay, a lot of the academics think it's ridiculous to take his name off.
因为当他还是个年轻人时，他基本上为家族的利益发声，试图维护他们在加勒比地区拥有的种植园的殖民利益。
Because when he was a very young man, he basically spoke up for his family's he tried to defend his family's colonial interests in the Caribbean where they owned plantations.
尽管后来他成为了一位伟大的改革者和所有进步事业的倡导者，但早年为家族利益所犯的这一错误，却让利物浦大学当局对他心生厌恶。
And even though later on, of course, he became this great reformer and a champion of every conceivable progressive cause, that early sort of misstep on behalf of his family has damned him in the eyes of the University of Liverpool authorities.
因此，他的名字被从这座宿舍楼移除了。
And so his name has been taken off this hall.
我认为，有趣的是，这反映了当今人们可能难以理解格莱斯顿所处的基督教背景。
And I think I think that what's interesting about that is that it reflects the way in which people today perhaps have difficulty in understanding the Christian context in which Gladstone is absolutely situated.
因为，当然，他的整个人生都在试图弥补他后来视为早年过错的那些错误。
Because, of course, there's a sense in which his entire life is an attempt to kind gain redemption for his what he comes to see as his early faults.
格莱斯顿是一个深信罪恶与救赎的人，从某种意义上说，他整个职业生涯就是对这种信念的纪念碑。
And Gladstone is absolutely a man who believes in sin, believes in redemption, and in a sense, his entire career is a monument to that.
而这是一个人们仍然能相信这些观念的时代。
And this is an age where people can believe in that.
现在我们不再有这种意识了，我觉得。
Now we don't have that sense, think.
我认为这是对的。
I think that's true.
事实上，我认为这正是一个原因——虽然听起来像是个微不足道的说法——但在这场极其无关紧要的争议中，他反而激发了人们的想象力，因为他在某种程度上是最不合时宜、离我们最遥远的人物。
I think, actually, that's one reason I know it sounds like a stupidly trivial thing to say, but one reason why in this immensely unimportant contest, he actually did get people's imagination is because he is a he is, in some ways, the figure who seems most out of time, who seems furthest from us.
所以，你知道，那些十八世纪的人物，他们其实都相当……唉，我不愿用这种术语，但奥普拉·温弗瑞大概会说，他们相当‘容易引起共鸣’。
So, you know, the sort of eighteenth century figures, they're all quite I mean, I hate to use the sort of jargon, relatable as Oprah Winfrey would no doubt say.
但格莱斯顿非常难以让人产生共鸣。
But Gladstone is very unrelatable.
我的意思是，我们已经完全失去了那种认真执着的态度。
I mean, we've completely lost touch with that sort of, you know, earnestness.
是的。
Yeah.
还有那种强健的基督教精神。
And that sort of muscular Christianity.
那个总觉得自己有空闲时间的人，你知道，他不会去刷手机。
The the guy who go who thinks he's got a spare moment, you know, he's not gonna check his phone
而是去做点别的事。
or something.
他会去劈柴，或者翻译一些神学论著。
He's gonna go and chop some logs and translate some theological treatises.
我的意思是，格莱斯顿这种人，你知道，和他交往会让人受不了，因为他总会觉得自己低人一等。
I mean, Gladstone apps you know, he would be an insufferable person to associate with because he would constantly feel inferior.
不过，多米尼克，你
Although, Dominic, you
比我知道得多得多，但难道不是可以说，格莱斯顿在某种程度上是比任何人都更塑造了如今英国政治的首相吗？
will know much, much better than me, but is there not a case to be said that actually Gladstone in a way is the prime minister more than anyone else who essentially creates British politics as it exists now?
我是说，他是伟大的财政大臣，他实际上塑造了如今财政大臣这一职位的形态。
I mean, he's the the great chancellor I mean, he essentially creates the role of the chancellor of chancellorship of the Exchequer as it exists now.
他改革了文官制度，改革了军队，所有这些事情都是如此。
He he he reforms the civil service, reforms the army, all these kind of things.
从某种意义上说，他创造了现代英国。
And in a sense, he creates modern Britain.
而且实际上，汤姆，还不止这些。
And actually more than that, Tom.
所以，我认为，通过文官制度改革和军队改革，他为我们提供了一个能够进入二十世纪的现代国家。
So I I do think that with the civil service reform and so on and the army reform is he gives us a modern state to take into the twentieth century.
但不仅如此，他还赋予了政治一种具有大众参与性质的内涵。
But even beyond that, he gives us politics in the sense of something that you do that has a kind of mass participatory element.
所以格莱斯顿的米德洛锡安竞选活动是针对保加利亚的暴行展开的，当时他会对那些庞大的人群发表演讲。
So Gladstone's Midlothian campaign is campaigning about atrocities in Bulgaria when he would I mean, Gladstone would speak to these colossal crowds.
大多数人根本听不清他说的任何一个字，却依然被那一刻深深吸引。
Most of him could not hear a word he was saying and who would yet be entranced by the moment.
这种伟大的政治家走上街头、面向大众集会演讲的模式——就像当年杰里米·科尔宾那样——正是格莱斯顿真正开创的。
And that sense of the great politician taking to the streets and addressing mass, you know, sort of old Jeremy Corbyn style meetings, it's Gladstone who really pioneers that.
因此，格莱斯顿不仅创造了后来时代的政治治理方式，
So Gladstone creates not just sort of state the sort of the statecraft of later ages, but
他还创造了选举政治。
he creates the electoral politics as well.
后来他的葬礼甚至乘坐地铁前往。
And then he gets taken to his funeral by tube.
真的吗？
Is that so?
这真是个了不起的事实。
That is a great fact.
我相信是的。
I believe so.
我想我是在一个酒吧问答游戏中学到的。
I think I I learned that from a pub quiz.
这可能不真实，但我同意。
It may not be true, but I'll Yeah.
不管怎样，那场格莱斯顿对阵以色列人的比赛真是激动人心。
Follow that Anyway, so so that's that that was Gladstone against Israeli, thrilling match.
格莱斯顿最终以54%的得票率赢得了比赛。
Gladstone ended up winning it by 54%.
接着我们有了皮尔对阵小皮特。
We then had Peel against Pitt the Younger.
我们在上一期节目中已经讨论过他们。
We've talked about them in the previous episode.
小皮特再次以54%的得票率获胜，胜率相同。
Pitt the Younger won that 54% again, so same margin of victory.
是的。
Yes.
我的意思是，皮特在那里本来就会赢，对吧？
I mean, Pitt was always gonna win there, wasn't he?
皮尔的 coronores 和他的 Bobby 创造的都不是，当然，这对皮尔来说非常不幸，那次投票发生在警察玷污自己声誉的第二天。
Peel is Peel's coronores and his his Bobby creating were not and of course, that now and very unfortunate for Peel, that vote took place the day after the police had disgraced themselves.
哦，是的。
Oh, yes.
在
In
伦敦科蒙。
London Common.
是的。
Yes.
在伦敦科蒙。
At London Common.
为莎拉·埃弗拉德举行的守夜活动。
The vigil for Sarah Everarto.
警方的作为，或许不是这样。
The Creating the police, not perhaps a No.
它并没有主动向选民靠拢。
It was not some gonna dear itself to the voters.
于是，我们看到了自由派左翼内部的冲突，劳合·乔治对抗艾德礼。
So then we had a a clash between those on the liberal left, Lloyd George against Attlee.
我们还没有真正讨论过这两位二十世纪的巨擘。
And we haven't really talked about either of those two titanic figures of twentieth century.
那我们先谈谈劳合·乔治，他当然曾在阿斯奎斯政府中任职。
So let's talk about Lloyd George first, who, of course, was in Asquith's government.
阿斯奎斯被罢免，撒切尔上台。
Asquith knocked out, Thatcher.
我们已经简单谈过那个自由党政府。
So we've we've talked briefly about that Liberal government.
但既然我们谈到了格莱斯顿为现代英国国家奠定了基础，那么从某种意义上说，劳合·乔治作为关键人物所参与的阿斯奎斯政府，实际上也是在为福利国家奠定基础，对吧？
But having talked about Gladstone laying the foundations for the modern British state, in in a sense, the Asquith government in which Lloyd George was kind of the key player, they are really laying the foundations for the welfare state, aren't they?
是的。
They are.
他们确实建立了福利国家。
Well, they create a welfare state.
我的意思是，福利国家并不是在20世纪40年代才出现的。
I mean, there's no you know, the welfare state wasn't created in the nineteen forties.
那时候已经存在福利国家了。
There there was welfare state already.
他们
They
那么劳合·乔治在其中扮演了什么角色？
So what's Lloyd George what's Lloyd George's role in that?
所以劳合·乔治是财政大臣。
So Lloyd George is chancellor.
劳合·乔治是阿斯奎斯的财政大臣。
Lloyd George is Asquith's chancellor.
劳合·乔治想要诸如养老金这样的政策。
Lloyd George wants things like pensions.
他希望扩大政府的权力。
He wants to increase the the power of government.
现在的劳合·乔治
He the Lloyd George now
他要废除公爵吧？
has be rid of dukes, doesn't he?
公爵。
Dukes.
是的。
Yes.
公爵们，他非常敌视公爵，因为他们花费堪比一艘无畏舰。
Dukes He's very hostile to dukes because they cost as much as a dreadnought.
因为它们被阻挠了，
Because they're being blocked,
你看，是上议院在阻挠。
you see, by the house of lords.
所以上议院由保守党主导，并且坚决阻挠新自由党政府提出的增税以及养老金和福利增加等措施。
So the house of lords is Tory dominated, and the house of lords is determined to block the rise in taxes and the increase in things like pensions and benefits that the new the liberal government are offering.
因此，在二十世纪初，你有格莱斯顿式的自由主义，主张放任自由、自由市场、小政府。
So what you've got in the early twentieth century, you've had Gladstoneian liberalism, which is all laissez faire kind of free market, hands off small government.
而阿斯奎斯和劳合·乔治的新自由主义者，则希望建立一种福利国家。
And the new liberals of Asquith and Lloyd George, you know, want a kind of welfare state.
他们主张更积极的政府，从许多方面为战后工党政治奠定了基础。
They're much more activist government, laying the foundation in many ways for what we'd think of as the sort of postwar labor politics.
当然，没人记得这一点的原因是，自由党在这两个人之间分裂了，是的。
And the reason that nobody remembers this, of course, is because the Liberal Party splits between these two men Yeah.
并变得在选举上无关紧要。
And becomes electorally irrelevant.
从那以后，他们没有任何真正的选民基础来呼吁我们记住他们。
So they have no real constituency since then arguing for us to remember them.
然而在当时，尤其是在二十世纪最初的二十年，甚至可能是前三十年，阿斯奎斯和劳合·乔治都是举足轻重的人物。
And yet at the time, in the first twenty years of the really, the probably the first thirty years of the twentieth century, Asquith and Lloyd George are these massive figures.
我的意思是，尤其是劳合·乔治，人们在政治上都是以自己对他的立场来界定自己的。
I mean, Lloyd George in particular, people defined themselves politically by where they stood in relation to Lloyd George.
他才是左右局势的人。
He was the weather maker.
因此，劳合·乔治在为这种新兴的福利国家——养老金等等——提供资金的同时，也在为无畏舰筹措资金。
And so Lloyd George, well as basically funding this kind of emergent welfare state pensions and so on, he's also finding the money for dreadnoughts.
这实际上赋予了英国海军在第一次世界大战中坚持下去的能力。
So essentially giving Britain's naval power the ability to hold out through the the First World War.
然后他成为了首相。
And then he becomes prime minister.
基本上，阿斯奎斯太随性了。
Basically, Asquith is is just kinda too laid back.
他整天和女朋友一起打桥牌。
He's hanging out playing bridge with his girlfriends.
是的。
Yeah.
因此，劳合·乔治以联合政府首脑的身份上台，成为一位成功的战时领袖。
So Lloyd George comes in at the head of a coalition, is a war leader, a successful war leader.
他代表英国出席了《凡尔赛条约》的签署。
He represents Britain at the the Treaty of Versailles.
确实如此。
He does indeed.
因此，他是一个极其重要的人物。
And so he's a hugely significant figure.
但是，但是，是的。
But but but, yes.
对。
Yes.
现在有很多诉讼。
There's lawsuits about.
所以劳合·乔治是最……他确实是个怪物。
So Lloyd George is the most so Lloyd George is a mon it really is a monster.
我的意思是，向威尔士和自由派听众致歉，但我认为劳合·乔治是个彻头彻尾的怪物。
I mean, apologies to sort of Welsh and liberal listeners, but I think Lloyd George is an utter monster.
在上一期播客中，我们讨论了英国政治中的江湖骗子倾向，如今这种倾向无疑体现在鲍里斯·约翰逊身上，就连他的支持者也会承认这一点。
In the last podcast, we were talking about the mountebank tendency in British politics as now incarnated, as surely he even his admirers would admit by Boris Johnson.
而劳合·乔治正是这种江湖骗子的典型代表。
And Lloyd George is the kind of mountebanks mountebank.
阿斯奎斯曾在第一次世界大战前，当劳合·乔治卷入马可尼丑闻时，帮他避免了耻辱，当时劳合·乔治
So Asquith had saved Lloyd George from disgracing the Marconi scandal before the first world war when Lloyd George Which
他确实参与了交易。
is kind of inside the dealing.
参与股票交易。
Inside the dealing in shares.
是的
Yeah.
劳合·乔治出身于威尔士一个相对平凡的家庭，他总是对妻子和其他人说，我唯一的抱负就是往上爬。
Lloyd George came from, you know, he came from this sort of relatively humble background in Wales, and he always said to his wife and to other people, my only ambition is to get on.
他最初是个激进派，我毫不怀疑他的激进主义是真诚信奉的。
So he starts out as a radical, and I don't doubt that his radicalism was was was genuinely believed.
但在1910年代期间，他实际上抛弃了这种立场，最终成为了一个基本上由保守党主导的政府首脑。
But he sheds that actually in the course of the nineteen tens, so he ends up as the head of basically a Tory dominated government.
他出售贵族头衔以换取现金。
He sells peerages for cash.
因此，他在财务上极其腐败，建立了一个政治基金，却拒绝与其它自由党人分享，这相当恶劣。
So he's incredibly financially crooked, and he builds up this political fund that he refuses to share with other liberals, which is pretty bad.
但按今天的标准来看，更糟糕的是他的性道德。
But what is worse by today's standards is his sexual morality.
我的意思是，劳合·乔治确实被一些人称为‘史上最伟大’，但他真不是一个
I mean, Lloyd George really and people call him the GOAT, and he really isn't a man that
你扶植的bard，不是吗？
you footed bard, wasn't it?
多曼·阿基恩斯称他为，是的。
Domain Arquins described him as, which is Yeah.
这让他听起来像个浪漫的人物。
Kinda makes him sound quite a romantic figure.
他基本上是一种
He's basically a kind
非正式的大 polygamist。
of informal bigamist.
所以他在家有妻子，在伦敦还有他的秘书或所谓的政治妻子弗朗西斯·史蒂文森。
So he's got his wife at home, and he's got his secretary or his sort of political wife, Francis Stevenson, in London.
但你知道，没有一个女人是安全的，甚至包括他自己的儿媳，我认为这跨越了不该跨越的界限。
But, you know, no woman is safe, including his own daughter-in-law, which I think crosses various lines that shouldn't really be crossed.
所以是他儿子的妻子。
So his son's wife.
我认为，在二十世纪二十年代初，整个政治界普遍认为他是个坏人。
And I think that there was definitely a point in the early nineteen twenties when quite widespread across the political spectrum, there was a sense that he's just a bad man.
其中一个
One one of
他的助手说，他拥有我见过最大的器官。
his aides said that he he had the biggest organ I've ever seen.
是的。
Yes.
没错。
That's yeah.
在更衣室里。
In the changing rooms.
如果以这一点作为成功的标准，劳合·乔治可能会赢。
Lloyd George might win on that if that was if that was one measure of success.
是的。
Yeah.
但所有这些都存在。
But so so there's all that.
然后，当然，进入三十年代，他实际上非常欣赏希特勒。
And then, of course, moving into the thirties, there's the fact that he's actually quite keen on Hitler.
是的。
He is.
对。
Yes.
我认为部分原因是劳合·乔治的政治理念，我认为，是由像他这样的人定义的：情绪激烈、充满驱动力、极具魅力的伟人。
And I think that's partly because Lloyd George has this his vision of politics, I think, is that is defined by people like himself, tempestuous, driven, incredibly charismatic, great men.
所以他和丘吉尔关系这么好。
So that's why he's such friends with Churchill.
丘吉尔和劳合·乔治在二十世纪初和二十年代是很好的朋友。
Churchill and Lloyd George were great pals in the nineteen hundreds and nineteen tens.
在某些方面，劳合·乔治是丘吉尔的榜样。
And in some ways, Lloyd George is a model for Churchill.
你知道吧？
You know?
他是个被恶魔般冲动驱使的人，你知道的，他坚信自己能按自己的模式重塑整个国家。
He's a he's a he's a a man powered by demonic urges, you know, who insists thinks he can remake the country in his own mold.
劳合·乔治放眼海外，看到像墨索里尼和希特勒这样的人，便说：这些显然都是像我一样的伟人。
And Lloyd George looks abroad, and he looks at people like Mussolini and Hitler, and he says, well, these are clearly great men like me.
他们都是了不起的演说家，还有诸如此类的一切。
They are these tremendous speakers and and all this sort of stuff.
有一些传言，你知道，劳合·乔治的支持者们可能会因为我这么说而憎恨我，但确实有说法认为，如果二战初期英国的局势有所不同，如果我们不得不采取类似贝当那样的安排，劳合·乔治会是显然的接替人选。
And there is some talk, you know, Lloyd George's partisans will despise me for saying this, but there is some talk that had things gone otherwise for Britain at the beginning of the second world war, had we had to do a kind of Marshall Petain style arrangement, Lloyd George would have been an obvious man to step in.
他毫无原则，完全毫无原则。
He's unprincipled, completely unprincipled.
他就像法国的贝当一样，会对自己说：我是英雄。
He he like Petain in France, he would say to himself, I'm the I'm a hero.
我是国家的救星。
I'm the savior of the country.
我还要再次拯救这个国家。
I'm gonna save the country yet again.
所以，我的意思是，也许我们不该因此责怪他，因为那并没有发生。
So, I mean, maybe we shouldn't hold that against him because it didn't happen.
但我认为，劳合·乔治始终存在这种可能性，他的许多批评者——比如他的保守党对手斯坦利·鲍德温——都认为他是个危险的人物，能力非凡、潜力巨大，但却靠不住。
But I think there was always the potential there with Lloyd George, a lot of his critics, you know, his Tory critics, for example, people like Stanley Baldwin, you know, that they saw him as a day as a dangerous man, a man of enormous ability and potential, but but dodgy.
好的。
Okay.
从某种意义上说，这或许正是伟大运动员所需要的——能够营造出一种危险感。
Which in a way is kind of what you want in a great sportsman perhaps, an ability to conjure a sense of danger.
你把他看作英国的马拉多纳。
You see him as the Maradona of British
是的。
Yes.
所以，是的。
So so I yes.
具有马拉多纳式的特质。
Maradonaresque quality.
他在四分之一决赛中对阵克莱门特·艾德礼，而艾德礼和丘吉尔，这两位二十世纪中期的伟大巨人，我想他们是
He was up against Clement Attlee in the quarter final, and Attlee and Churchill, the two great titans of the the mid twentieth century, they are, I guess, what
是的，没错。
what Yeah.
十九世纪中期的迪斯雷利和格莱斯顿。
Disraeli and Gladstone after the mid nineteenth century.
我们还没怎么讨论过他们。
We haven't really talked about them yet.
这两位人物在英国首相世界杯的戏剧性和精彩进程中都扮演了关键角色。
And both men have crucial roles to play in the drama and excitement of, the way that the prime minister British Prime Minister World Cup worked out.
那么我们现在休息一下，回来后我们将回顾四分之一决赛、半决赛和决赛的最后两场比赛，并特别关注艾德礼和丘吉尔。
So let's take a break now, and then when we come back, we'll go through the the the last two matches of the quarterfinals, the semifinals, and the final, and we'll have a particular focus on Attlee and Churchill.
我们到时候见。
We'll see you then.
大家好，欢迎来到读书会，这是由Goal Hanger推出的全新播客，由我多米尼克·桑布鲁克主持。
Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Book Club, a new podcast from Goal Hanger, hosted by me, Dominic Sandbrook.
还有我，塔比莎·赛勒斯。
And me, Tabitha Cyrus.
正如一些听众可能知道的，我一直是多米尼克在《历史其余部分》中的制片人，去年我们还做了一个关于书籍的迷你系列。
As some of you may know, I've been Dominic's producer on The Rest is History, and we even did a miniseries last year about all things books.
由于我们非常享受那段经历，我们决定把它打造成一档独立的节目。
And since we enjoyed that so much, we have decided to roll it out as its own show.
所以节目每周二更新。
So it'll be coming out every Tuesday.
每次我们会选择一本不同的书，深入探讨它们背后的所有故事。
We'll be doing a different book each time and digging into all the stories behind them.
我们将讨论一些有史以来最伟大、最著名书籍背后的历史背景。
And we are gonna be talking about the historical context behind some of the greatest and most famous books of all time.
我们会挖掘这些作品背后的非凡人物、故事背后的意外情节，同时也会逐步剖析每本书的情节，深入探索其深层内涵。
We're gonna be digging into the remarkable people behind them, the unexpected stories behind the stories, and also unraveling the plot of each book a bit and delving into the depths of the story.
你不需要读过这些书就能听这个节目，但我们希望，到每集结束时，你都能假装自己读过它们。
Now you don't have to have read the books to listen to the show, but we hope that by the end of each episode, you will be able to pretend to people that you've read them.
这才是关键。
That is the key thing.
而且无论你有没有读过，我们都希望你能学到很多有趣的知识。
And either way, whether you read them or not, we hope that you'll learn lots of fascinating facts.
你会听到许多精彩的故事，也许还会听到塔比的一些笑声。
You'll read lots of great stories, and maybe Tabby, the odd laugh.
我们将探讨像《呼啸山庄》和《弗兰肯斯坦》这样惊悚的哥特式爱情小说，以及像《了不起的盖茨比》或《小妇人》这样的经典作品。
We will be looking at thrilling gothic bodice rippers like Wuthering Heights and Frankenstein, as well as iconic stories like The Great Gatsby or Little Women.
此外，我们还会涉及一些更现代的作品。
And then also some more modern stuff.
比如《权力的游戏》、《普通人》、《饥饿游戏》、《哈姆内特》，各种令人兴奋的故事。
So Game of Thrones, Normal People, The Hunger Games, Hamnet, all manner of exciting stories.
所以，请在你收听播客的任何平台加入我们，一起探索与书籍有关的一切吧。
So please join us on our journey into all things books wherever you get your podcasts.
只需每周二搜索‘读书会’，希望那时能在那儿见到你们。
Just search for the book club every Tuesday, and hopefully, we will see you there.
欢迎回到《历史之外》，我们正在剖析‘历史之外’世界杯——这一国际体育日程中的盛事。
Welcome back to the is History, and we are dissecting the Rest is History World Cup, that fixture of the international sporting calendar.
我们进展得如此顺利而专业，现在已经完成了四分之一决赛的中段。
We're making such smooth and professional progress that we are halfway through the third quarter final.
我们已经讨论了一位四分之一决赛选手，那就是劳合·乔治，现在轮到他的对手克莱门特·艾德礼。
We've discussed one of the quarter finalists, which is Lloyd George, and we're now onto his opponent, who is Clement Attlee.
我们想聊聊丘吉尔和艾德礼，正如你所说，汤姆，他们都是20世纪中期的重量级人物，对吧？
And we wanna talk about So Churchill and Attlee, they are, as you said, Tom, they are huge kind of mid century figures, aren't they?
但对我来说，当然，丘吉尔是人人都知道的温斯顿·丘吉尔。
But for me, I mean, obviously, Churchill is everybody knows Winston Churchill.
他都印在钞票上了。
He's on the money.
你知道，他那儿还立着一座雕像。
You know, he's there's a statue of him.
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他已成为大众想象中的一部分。
He is part of the popular imagination.
而克莱门特·艾德礼，如果你对政治不感兴趣，不是左翼，也不太关注现代史，他确实更默默无闻，对吧？
And Clement Attlee, if you're not interested in politics, if you're not left wing, and if you're not terribly interested in modern history, he's a bit more anonymous, isn't he?
但关于他，人们总是提到的那个著名说法，不就是这个吗？
But that's the famous thing that was always said about him, wasn't it?
那是什么？
What was it?
一辆空车，对，一辆空出租车停下，克莱门特·艾德礼走了出来。
An empty car, right empty taxi drew up and Clement Attlee got out.
这句 supposedly 是丘吉尔说的，但实际上他从未说过。
Which Churchill is supposed to have said and never said.
丘吉尔并没有说过这句话。
Churchill didn't say it.
他根本什么都没说。
He didn't say anything.
丘吉尔非常钦佩他，他确实如此。
Churchill was a great admirer of him in many He was indeed.
他称赞他是爱国者。
He praised him as a patriot.
是的。
Yeah.
有一个故事说，一位年轻的保守党议员托尼来到查特韦尔，希望讨好丘吉尔，于是大肆批评艾德礼。
There's a story that a tore young Tory Tyrone comes to Chartwell and sort of hoping to curry favor with Churchill, sort of lays into Attlee.
丘吉尔说，如果你还想再来查特韦尔，就永远别再对我说这种愚蠢的话了，你绝不能再在我面前说艾德礼这个老糊涂的坏话。
And Churchill says, you know, if you ever want to come to Chartwell again, you will never say such silly things about you oh, you'll never talk about silly old Attlee in my present in my presence.
艾德礼先生是一位伟大的人物，一位爱国者。
Mister Attlee is a great man and a patriot.
当然，当丘吉尔去世时，艾德礼发表了极为温暖的评价，我一直觉得这是其中一个……
And, of course, Attlee said incredibly warm things about Churchill when Churchill died, which I always think is one of the Yeah.
如果你是丘吉尔的拥护者，我的意思是，这应该是你首先应该提到的事情之一。
If you're a Churchill defender, I mean, that should be one of the sort of first things that you bring out.
他去世时，艾德礼说：我们失去了我们这个时代最伟大的英国人，事实上，也是我们这个时代最伟大的世界公民。
That when he died, Attlee said, we've lost the greatest Englishman of our time, in fact, the greatest citizen of the world of our of our time.
我想他们俩都在赢得战争的联合政府中吧。
Well, I suppose they were they were both in the coalition, weren't they, in the that that won the war.
所以从这个意义上说，他们算是战友。
So in that sense, kind of comrades.
所以，艾德礼去了海利伯里，这所公学本质上是为了培养统治印度的人才。
So so Attlee is he goes to Hailabri, which is the public school that essentially exists to send people to run India.
是的。
Yes.
大英帝国。
British Empire.
他总是
He always
他总是上大学。
he always college.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yes.
他非常喜欢那里。
And he he's he's he's very fond of it.
然后在这一点上，我猜他只是一个普通的、典型的年轻小伙子。
And then he at this point, I'm guessing he's just a kind of, you know, he's a taury guy, taury young man.
接着他去了东区，并且经历了
And then he goes to the East End and he has a
一种转变。
Sort of a conversion.
大马士革式的转变。
Damascene conversion.
是的，他确实如此。
Yes, he does.
阿里有这样一位非凡的传记作者，约翰·布伊，他是鲍里斯·约翰逊的外交政策顾问。
And he so Ali has this extraordinary John Bue has written who's Boris Johnson's foreign policy kind of adviser.
公民克莱姆。
Citizen Clem.
他写了一本关于阿里的精彩传记。
Has written this fantastic biography of Ali.
阿里是一个非常有趣且令人钦佩的人，因为正如你所说，他是个典型的公学毕业生、保守派。
Ali is a fantastically interesting and admirable man, because as you say, he's completely conventional, public school boy, Tory.
但他确实有
But he does have
一种胡须感，是的。
a sense of mustache and Yes.
松树。
Pine.
他确实喜欢板球。
Does have Loves cricket.
不太擅长。
Not very good at it.
我对他很有共鸣。
I lot of fellow feeling for him.
不过，汤姆，你没有胡子。
You don't have the mustache, though, Tom.
我觉得
I think
你看起来不会。
you'd look No.
我没有。
I don't.
我没有。
I don't.
但我觉得我们对板球的热爱非常相似。
But I I I think our cricket record is very similar.
我觉得你会
I think you'd
看起来很像特里·托马斯。
look very Terry Thomas.
你好。
Hello.
不管怎样，那是一辆公交车，就在公交车旁。
Anyway, that's a bus by the bus.
淋浴。
Shower.
所以，阿特利，他有着非凡的公共服务精神。
So Atly, he he has this incredible ethic of public service.
他去伦敦东区，参与照顾那些贫困的孩子，这激发了他的社会主义理念。
And he does he goes to the East End Of London and he gets involved with looking after kind of poor kids, and that that fuels his socialism.
他是一个没有基督教信仰的基督教社会主义者。
He's a Christian socialist without the Christianity.
正如他自己后来所说，我相信所有的道德准则。
As he says himself later on, you know, I I believe in all the ethics.
我无法忍受那些空洞的废话，而这正是他内在的驱动力。
I can't stand the mumbo jumbo, and that's his sort of driving passion.
但与此同时，他对阿特利的爱国主义情感根深蒂固。
But at the same time, he is the patriotism with Attlee is is incredibly deep seated.
而这一点，我认为部分是因为他参加了第一次世界大战。
And and that's partly, I think, because, you know, he fights in the first world war.
他是上校，对吧？
He's a major, isn't he?
阿特利上校。
Major Attlee.
他参加过加里波利战役。
He's Gallipoli.
他好像在臀部中弹了。
He's shot in the buttocks, I think it is.
在加里波利撤离时，他是苏弗拉湾第二个撤离的人。
He's the second man out of Suvla Bay at Gallipoli when they're evacuated.
之后他前往美索不达米亚作战，但因伤被撤下前线。
He then fights in Mesopotamia, and he's invalided out.
因此，他有着无可挑剔的战争履历。
So he is somebody with an impeccable war record.
这就是为什么人们称他为‘阿特利少校’，当时的人们确实会利用这段战争经历。
That's why people call him Major Atlian, and people in those days did trade on that war record.
而且，正是这一点让我觉得，无论政治立场如何，人们都一直对他心生好感。
And and that's what has always endeared him, I think, people on both sides of the political spectrum.
因此，另一位对此非常赞赏的人是玛格丽特·撒切尔。
So somebody else who's very warm about that is Margaret Thatcher.
在她的回忆录中，她说他是一位多么了不起的首相，你知道的，
In her memoir, she says what a tremendous prime you know,
她并不认同
what a she didn't agree with
她并不认同他的政策，但认为他是个了不起的人。
him in his policy, but what a tremendous man he was.
伟大的工党人物，伟大的工党。
Great labor man, great labor.
她实际上提到，在1979年她首次竞选首相时，站在竞选舞台上。
And she actually says that in the nineteen seventy nine election when she's running for her first time as prime minister when she's standing.
然后她说，她向曾经投票给艾德礼的工党选民发出呼吁。
Then she says she appeals to labor people who voted for Attlee.
她说，你知道，来投我一票吧，就是出于这个原因。
She says, you know, come and vote for me because of that reason.
因此，1979年被视为一场关键的变革性选举，而撒切尔则是一位变革性的首相。
So 1979 is seen as a kind of key transformative election and Thatcher as a transformative prime minister.
而艾德礼也拥有类似的声望。
And Attlee has this you know, I mean, he has a similar status.
1945年的大选以及随之上台的工党政府。
So nineteen forty five election and the Labour government that comes in.
是的
Yeah.
这正是艾德礼声誉的基础。
This is this is what Attlee's reputation is founded on.
他是主持建立福利国家的人。
That he is the man who presides over the creation of the welfare state.
我想我们已经讨论过格莱斯顿和劳合·乔治在其中所起的作用。
I guess that we've already looked at the the role that Gladstone and Lloyd George kind of played in that.
所以，情况比艾德礼一上台就从零开始创建福利国家要复杂一些。
So it's slightly more complicated than Attlee comes in and it creates it from scratch.
但他对创建国民医疗服务体系和福利国家的作用至关重要，对吧？
But his role in creating the National Health Service and the welfare state is is key, isn't it?
这才是关键。
That's the key.
那三个字母，NHS。
Those three letters, NHS.
NHS显然已经成为英国人的一种世俗信仰。
And the NHS has obviously become a kind of secular religion for British people.
英国听众会认为这理所当然。
Now British listeners will take that for granted.
我们的海外听众可能会想，英国人竟然崇拜一家医疗服务机构，真是疯了。
Our overseas listeners will think, at this point, the British are demented to worship a health service.
但当然，我们确实如此。
But of course, we do.
我的意思是，这在2012年奥运会的开幕式上也体现出来了。
I mean, it was in the Olympic ceremony, opening ceremony in 2012.
而阿特利作为NHS的创立者，或主导其建立的人，已使他在政治传奇中占据了稳固的地位。
And Attlee's status as the founder of the NHS or as the person who presided over its foundation has enshrined his place in political legend.
而且我
And I
我认为另一点是，汤姆，自那以后，工党再也没有一位让工党积极分子真正感到自豪的首相。
think the other thing, Tom, is that Labour have not had since then a prime minister of which of whom Labour activists are actually terribly proud.
所以六七十年代有哈罗德·威尔逊，但当他离开时，许多自己的活动人士认为他是个伪装的保守党人。
So there was Harold Wilson in the nineteen sixties and seventies, but by the time he left, a lot of his own activists thought he was a crypto Tory.
托尼·布莱尔，你知道，他的声誉众所周知，而艾德礼是唯一一道闪亮的光芒。
Tony Blair, who, you know, his reputation is well known, and Attlee is the one kind of shining light.
所以艾德礼曾是——继续说吧。
So Attlee has been But go on.
但艾德礼是位重要人物，他在建立北约的过程中发挥了关键作用。
But but Attlee is, you know, major Attlee, and he he's he plays a key role in setting up NATO.
他主持了核武器项目。
He Nuclear
核武器。
weapons.
支持英国的核威慑力量。
Sponsors the British nuclear deterrent.
他实际上主导了分治进程。
He essentially presides over partition.
我的意思是，他的履历上确实有一些污点
I mean, he he so there are there are blots on his escutcheon
嗯
Well
从左翼的角度来看。
seen from seen from the left.
从左翼的视角来看。
From perspective from the left.
是的。
Yes.
绝对如此。
Absolutely.
而且我认为，实际上他在二十世纪四五十年代担任首相时，自己党内左派对他并不怎么支持。
And I think that I mean, he wasn't terribly popular with his own left, actually, when he was prime minister in the nineteen forties and fifties.
有趣的是，直到九十年代左右，如果你问人们谁是伟大的首相，艾德礼根本不会被列入其中。
And actually, the funny thing about Attlee is that until about the nineteen nineties, if you had said to people who are great prime ministers, Attlee wouldn't really have featured.
事实上，在左翼群体以及许多倾向左翼的学者中，关于艾特利政府的讨论多集中在错失的机遇和未走的道路上。
And in fact, on the left and among a lot of sort of left leaning academics, a lot of the talk about the Attlee government was wasted opportunities, roads not taken.
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
安东尼·霍华德，曾任《新政治家》杂志编辑，写过一篇关于那个时期的文章，称那是自1945年以来对传统价值观最伟大的复兴。
Anthony Howard, the editor of the late it was at one point editor of the New Statesman, wrote an essay about the that period in which he said it was the greatest restoration of traditional values since 1945.
这正是经典的桑德布鲁克式评论。
So this is this is classic Sandbrook punditry.
激进的左翼人物被重新包装成了保守派。
Radical radical left wing figures are are rebranded as conservatives.
但确实。
But Yeah.
但在艾德礼的例子中，你知道，他在某些方面显然也是一个非常保守的小写意义上的保守派，同时又是一个激进的社会主义者。
But with with the case of Attlee, I can you know, he is clearly, in some ways, a very conservative small c figure as well as a very radically socialist figure.
是的。
Yeah.
他个人非常保守，不是吗？
Personally, he's very conservative, isn't he?
我的意思是，他非常热爱传统，比如有人问他：‘您想在唐宁街十号装一台电传打字机吗？'
I mean, his love of so for example, they say to him, would you like a ticker tape machine in number 10?
他对板球感兴趣并不意味着他就是保守派。
He hasn't that Being interested in cricket is not doesn't mean you're conservative.
这仅仅说明他对板球感兴趣。
It just means you're interested in cricket.
我不太确定，汤姆。
Oh, I'm not sure about that, Tom.
我不确定。
I'm not sure
因为他
because he's
显然不是
obviously not
他用打字机来获取板球比分。
He used the ticker tape to to to get the cricket scores.
是的。
Yeah.
板球比分。
Cricket scores.
当然，对他来说，没有什么比他的老校友领带和海利伯里更重要了。
Of course, nothing mattered more to him than his old school tie and Haylibury.
对。
Right.
你提到学校，我们也都记得那所学校。
You know, you mentioned the school, and we remember the school.
我们通常不会记得首相们的学校。
We don't normally remember prime minister's schools.
我们之所以记得，是因为这对他来说至关重要。
We remember it with him because it mattered so much to him.
所以这是一种典型的英式混合，既有保守派，也有激进派。
So a classically British mix of the conservative and and the radical.
是的。
Yeah.
但或许在某种程度上，他给人一种匿名感。
But perhaps because to to a degree, there is a sense of anonymity about him.
他不是一个张扬的人物。
He's not a flamboyant figure.
因此，当真实的阿特利逐渐从历史记忆中淡去时，他可以成为一种象征，也许这正是他在这里所扮演的角色——他是国民医疗服务体系的象征。
And so therefore, as he as as the real Atli fades from the historical memory, he can become a kind of symbol, which perhaps is is the role that he's playing here, that he's a symbol of the NHS.
他是……的象征
He's a symbol of
我觉得是的。
I think so.
福利国家。
The welfare state.
我觉得他其实让你想起谁了，汤姆？
I think he's actually you know who he reminds me of, Tom?
乔治·奥威尔。
George Orwell.
他们属于同一个时代。
They're the same period.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
他们俩都一样，你知道的，无论从光谱的哪一边来看，都有理由将他们联系起来。
And they're both, you know, you there are cases to be made from them from both sides of the spectrum.
保守派把艾德礼捧为他们那种所谓的爱国型蓝色劳工。
Conservatives hold up Attlee as their sort of, you know, patriotic Blue Labour.
天啊。
Man.
所有这些。
All that.
蓝色劳工。
Blue Labour.
没错。
Exactly.
肯·洛奇和类似倾向的人会谈到1945年的精神以及国民医疗服务体系的建立。
And Ken Loach and people of that tendency talk about the spirit of '45 and the foundation of the NHS.
所以每个人都能在浪漫化的克莱门特·艾德礼身上找到自己想要的东西。
So everybody can find in the sort of the romanticized Clement Attlee.
因此，艾德礼以64%的得票率 decisively 击败劳合·乔治也就不足为奇了。
So it's not surprising that that Attlee should have beaten Lloyd George quite decisively, 64%.
是的。
Yeah.
因为劳合·乔治，我认为尽管——我的意思是，劳合·乔治作为领导英国度过第一次世界大战的战时领袖，为福利国家奠定了基础，这些成就确实非常伟大，但另一方面，也有很多人对他持批评态度，这可能会影响他的支持率。
Because Lloyd George I think despite I I mean, I think Lloyd George's achievements in in laying the foundations for welfare state in as a as a war leader who's who who guides Britain through the First World War, I mean, I think those are immense achievements, but there's quite a lot of in in you know, to go against that, and you can see that that that might drive down.
他是一个品行恶劣的人，而没人会说阿特利是个坏人。
He's a bad man, whereas no one would say that that that that Attlee was a bad man.
所以阿特利进入了半决赛。
So Attlee went through to the semifinals.
所以我们已经看到小皮特晋级了。
So so we've had Pitt the younger went through.
阿特利也晋级了。
We had Attlee go through.
格莱斯顿也晋级了。
We had Gladstone go through.
而最后一场四分之一决赛是阿斯奎斯——我们在上一集讨论过他——对阵头号种子温斯顿·丘吉尔。
And then the the last quarterfinal was Asquith, who we've talked about in the previous episode, against Winston Churchill, the number one seed.
而实际上，丘吉尔是我们这里要讨论的最后一个人。
And, really, Churchill is the last person that we've got to talk here.
不出所料，他在这一场体育赛事的戏剧性情节中扮演了关键角色。
He's unsurprisingly, he plays a key figure in the drama of this sporting occasion.
是的。
Yeah.
他击败了阿斯奎斯，但有趣的是，胜率并没有你想象中那么高，他只获得了58%的票数。
He he wins against Asquith, but interestingly, not by as much as you might suspect because he wins 58%.
对。
Yeah.
这预示着下一轮将要发生的事情。
And that was a sign of what was coming the next round.
对吧？
Right?
因为，当我看到丘吉尔只是勉强击败了阿斯奎斯时，我就觉得，丘吉尔一旦进入半决赛，要想晋级决赛会非常非常困难。
Because, I mean, at that point, when I saw that Churchill had only just beaten Asquith, I sort of thought then, well, Churchill is gonna find it very, very hard to go through to the final once he's into the semis.
所以他抽到了，让我们说，是的。
So he was drawn Let's let's yeah.
所以他抽到了格莱斯顿。
So he's drawn against Gladstone.
所以艾德礼对上皮特。
So Attlee is against Pitt.
我认为毫不意外，没人会惊讶他击败了皮特。
And I think unsurprisingly, no one will be surprised that he he beats Pitt.
晋级了，是的。
Goes Yeah.
以65%的得票率。
By 65%.
所以艾德礼进入了决赛。
So Attlee goes into the final.
格莱斯顿对丘吉尔是另一场激烈的对决。
Gladstone against Churchill was another titanic battle.
这位德高望重的老人，你知道的，他经历了多么辉煌的历程。
The grand old man, you know, what a run he's had.
是的。
These Yeah.
经典的体育对决。
Classic sporting encounters.
而且，对阵丘吉尔的比赛注定会非常激烈。
And it it was always gonna be huge against Churchill.
最终，就像他之前对阵以色列时那样，当夕阳的阴影逐渐笼罩球场时，他以55%的得票率胜出。
And, ultimately, as he'd done in the match against Israeli, he comes through as the shadows are lengthening over the stadium, and he ends up winning 55%.
所以丘吉尔被淘汰了。
So Churchill is knocked out.
所以这两个人
So both the two
完全是同样的模式。
exactly the same pattern.
两位伟大的战时领袖，是的。
Both the two great war leaders Yep.
小皮特
Pitt the Younger
还有丘吉尔，是的。
and Churchill Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
被淘汰了。
It's a are knocked out.
两位伟大的改革者，艾德礼和格莱斯顿晋级了。
The two great reformers, Attlee and Gladstone, go through.
让我们谈谈丘吉尔，因为即使他没能进入决赛，大家谈论的仍然是他。
So let's talk about Churchill because Churchill, obviously, even when he's not making it to the final, is what everyone's talking about.
对。
Yes.
他是巴西人，对吧？
He's Brazil, isn't he?
在这个类比中，他就是巴西。
He's he's the Brazil of this, in this analogy.
我认为丘吉尔的问题在于，他在整个锦标赛中与其他所有人不在同一个级别。
Now I think the thing with Churchill is that Churchill is in a different league from everybody else in the entire tournament.
实际上，当我们宣传这个锦标赛时，历史学家艾伦·奥尔波特——他启动了一个很棒的项目，撰写第二次世界大战的社会史——
And, actually, when we advertise the tournament, the historian Alan Allport, who's written started this fantastic project writing sort of social histories of the second world war.
他在推特上发了一条消息，说：如果抽签中有一个圆滚滚、打着领结的家伙，那就没必要继续比赛了，因为大家都知道丘吉尔会赢。
He he put a message on Twitter and said, you know, if there's a if there's a rotund fellow in the draw with a bow tie, there's no point running the tournament because everybody knows that Churchill will win.
因为，当然了，丘吉尔在任何关于最伟大英国人的民意调查中都总是胜出。
Because, of course, Churchill wins every poll done normally to decide the greatest Briton.
当BBC在2002年进行大规模的‘最伟大的英国人’民意调查时，我认为丘吉尔轻松胜出。
When the BBC did their huge landmark Great Britons poll in 2002, I think Churchill won it pretty comfortably.
他就在边缘线上。
He's on the line.
九点？
At nine?
约翰·列侬的排名超过了本应排在他前面的许多人。
John Lennon was ahead of all sorts of people who should have been.
不过，戴安娜王妃的排名也很高。
But mind you, princess Diana was very high.
是的。
Yes.
她确实如此。
She Yes.
他们确实是。
They were.
但它
But it
是的。
was yeah.
丘吉尔排第一，非常明显，丘吉尔肯定会赢。
Churchill was number one, and very clearly, it was obvious that Churchill was going to win.
你知道，丘吉尔是少数几个孩子都知道名字的人。
And, you know, Churchill is one of the few children know Churchill's name.
人们对历史毫无兴趣，却都知道丘吉尔，而丘吉尔在国外被视为英国的象征。
People have no interest in history whatsoever know of Churchill, and Churchill is seen abroad as a symbol of Britishness.
但当然，现在
But, of course, now
关于这一点，多米尼克，关于这一点
On that, Dominic, on that
是的。
Yeah.
我可以读几条推文吗？
Could I could I just read a couple of of tweets?
好的。
Yeah.
读吧。
Do.
我只读一条推文。
I'm just gonna read one tweet here.
这条是关于格莱斯顿和丘吉尔的。
This is on the the Gladstone Churchill.
发帖人是卡佩尔·洛夫，他是个狂热的丘吉尔粉丝。
It's from, Cappel Loft, who's a big Churchill fan.
他说，认真地说，这个比赛的投票者都疯了。
He says, seriously, the voters in this competition are nuts.
格莱斯顿废除了肥皂税，引入了竞争性的文官考试，并因自治问题分裂了自己的政党。
Gladstone repealed the SOAP tax, introduced competitive civil service exams, and destroyed his party over home rule.
丘吉尔在拯救英国免受纳粹统治中发挥了主导作用。
Churchill played the leading role in saving Britain from Nazi domination.
在理智的世界里，这根本没什么可比的。
No contest in a sane world.
是的。
Yes.
我们经常听到这种说法。
We got that a lot.
它具有
It's got
一种观点，不是吗？
a point of view, isn't it?
对。
Yeah.
我觉得丘吉尔的有趣之处在于这一点。
And I think this is the funny thing with Churchill.
丘吉尔有一个单一的杰出成就，对许多人来说，这超越了其他一切，尤其是因为它构成了现代英国身份的基石。
Churchill has this single signal achievement that is that for a lot of people transcends all else, not least because it's the foundational moment of modern British identity.
你知道，这是我们被奉为圣人的时刻。
You know, it's our moment of sainthood.
我们曾独自对抗纳粹，拯救了世界，这
It's we stood alone against the Nazis and saved the world, which
被深深灌输到每个自由的英国人心中。
is kind of drummed
进入每一个自由的英国人脑海。
into every freeborn Britain.
但现在还这样吗？
But is it anymore?
我的意思是，这个结果之所以如此有趣，是因为它确实如此——我知道，推特上的人几乎无一例外都比推特之外的政治中心更偏左。
I mean, because that's that's what's so interesting about this result is that it does I mean, I know that that that people on Twitter almost invariably are to the left of of the political center of gravity beyond Twitter.
但有趣的是，他似乎已成为当前文化战争中的一个绝对焦点。
But I I it it is interesting that he seems to have become an absolute lightning rod in the ongoing culture war.
每当发生抗议活动，人们最终都会说，是的。
And whenever there's some protest, people end up Yeah.
警方总会出面保护雕像，无论是否真的有必要。
Trying to you know, the police end up defending the statue whether they need to or not.
所以，你提到的那些抗议活动，还有警方在格莱登公地处理萨拉·埃弗拉德纪念活动的方式。
So even, you know, the you mentioned the the the the protests, the the way that the police handled the commemoration of Sarah Everett at in in Gladden Common.
不知怎的，最后警方围成一圈，保护着丘吉尔的雕像。
Somehow that ended up with police standing in a ring around Churchill's statue.
很明显，这几乎已经与丘吉尔作为历史人物的本真形象脱节了，他已经成为一个神话。
And there's something clea clearly, it's almost, I guess, divorced from Churchill as a historical figure, and he's become a myth.
你知道，那种认为丘吉尔拯救了全世界的说法，就是一个神话。
You know, the idea that Churchill, basically saved the world, that's that's one myth.
我的意思是，他确实发挥了关键而决定性的作用，但我不认为他是单枪匹马赢得战争的。
I mean, he clearly plays an absolute key decisive role, but I don't I mean, he doesn't win the war single handedly.
而在另一面，有人声称他派坦克镇压无辜的青少年和抗议者，还对孟加拉饥荒负有责任，这是对他最常被提及的另一项指控。
And then on on the other side, the idea that he sends tanks in to mow down innocent minors and and protesters, and that he's responsible for the Bengal famine, which is the other much spoken about charge against him.
我不是这方面的专家，但我的兄弟是，他对二战期间的航运航线和航运需求了如指掌，他向我保证，这种说法并不正确。
Now I I'm no expert on this, but my my brother is and knows everything about shipping lanes and shipping requirements in the Second World War assures me You make sound not correct.
他向我确认，丘吉尔对孟加拉饥荒并不负有责任。
Res assures me that Churchill was not responsible for for the Bengal famine.
克雷恩对它不负责任吗？
Was Cleans not responsible for it?
我的意思是，这显然是一个荒谬的说法。
I mean, yeah, I mean, it's obviously a ludicrous claim.
我的意思是，你对一场正在发生的饥荒并不负有责任，你或许会因为处理不当而受到批评，公平地说。
I mean, you're not responsible for a famine that's taking place that's you might be you might be criticized for for your handling of it, I mean, to be fair
我认为丘吉尔在某种程度上，真的认为丘吉尔杀死了三百万人之类的。
to I Churchill think I think in certain way, I mean, you really Churchill killed 3,000,000 people or whatever.
你看，汤姆，你现在经常读到这些。
You see, you read that all the time now, Tom.
这至少也是一个同样庞大的神话。
And that seems as at least as big a myth.
所以，在双方的争论中，人们所讨论的本质上都是不真实的神话，但这些神话显然根植于丘吉尔之所以如此引人入胜的原因——他是比任何其他政治人物都更坚定地确保英国继续抵抗纳粹、并能持续抵抗纳粹的人。
So on both sides, what people are arguing about are essentially untrue myths that nevertheless are rooted clearly in in what makes Churchill such a fascinating character, that he is the guy who, more than any other political figure, ensures that Britain fights on against the Nazis and is able to fight on against the Nazis.
他也是一个非常坚信大英帝国的人，并且确实有一种种族主义的观念，认为欧洲人，特别是英国人，具有优越性。
He is also very much a figure who believes in the British Empire and definitely is has a kind of racist sense of the superiority of, I guess, Europeans, but specifically the British.
是的。
Yeah.
这两个方面在2021年的世界中都极具共鸣。
And both of those are incredibly resonant in in the world of 2021.
嗯，这正是我的轻松外表崩塌、我作为激烈抨击文章作者的真实身份暴露的时候。
Well, see, this is the point where my my sort of jolly facade crumbles and my true identity as a author of intemperate tirades will
没错。
In the right.
好吧。
Okay.
所以一定得来一篇激烈的抨击。
So must have intemperate tirade.
我觉得，如果我能重新拼凑起我的外表，丘吉尔实际上已经成为英国和英国性的代名词，也成为英国历史的代名词。
Well, I think well, actually, if I can sort of reassemble my facade, I think Churchill has become shorthand for Britain and Britishness, and for and for British history, actually.
因此，对丘吉尔雕像的攻击，与其说是针对丘吉尔本人，不如说是一种近乎俄狄浦斯式的对英国本身、对英国自我认知的攻击。
So the attack on a Churchill statue is is not an attack so much on Churchill himself, but it's an attack it's an almost kind of Oedipal attack on on Britain, and Britain's sense of itself and its sense of itself.
这是一种攻击
It's an attack
针对加蒙斯，不是吗？
on Gammons, isn't it?
我的意思是，基本上，我不认为抗议者真的关心丘吉尔，但他们知道攻击他会惹恼他们想惹恼的人，这就是他们这么做的原因。
I mean, basically, I I I don't think that protesters really care about Churchill, but they know that attacking him annoys people that they want to annoy and say that's what they do it.
像我这样的人。
People like me.
英国中部地区。
Middle England.
英国中部地区的声音。
The voice of Middle England.
是的。
Yes.
没错。
Exactly.
是的。
Yeah.
但还有国外的人。
But also people abroad.
因为你说过，有趣的是来自英国以外的人的视角。
Because you you said this, you know, the what's been interesting about this is the perspective of of people outside Britain.
所以丘吉尔击败了阿斯奎斯，进入了半决赛。
So so so Churchill beats Churchill beats Asquith, goes into the semifinal.
但他输给了格莱斯顿。
He he he loses to Gladstone.
是的。
Yeah.
所以是格莱斯顿对阵阿斯奎斯的决赛。
So it's it's a Gladstone, Atli final.
我们还收到了来自以色列的戴维发来的推文，他谈到了阿斯奎斯。
And we had this, the tweet from David to Zirak from, Israel, who who says this about Atli.
他在国内可能很伟大，但在以色列，他和贝文因战后拒绝取消对犹太移民的限制而备受诟病。
He may have been great domestically, but he and especially Bevin are badly remembered here in Israel for refusing to remove limits on Jewish immigration after the war.
顺便说一句，在英国，历史对你们来说是观赛运动，但在以色列，它是参与性的。
By the way, to you in The UK history is a spectator sport to us in Israel.
它是参与性的。
It is participatory.
但这挺有意思的。
But that's kind of interesting.
那就是对的。
That's the Yeah.
那里的观点是，艾特利其实并不那么正面，他他他他，嗯，好吧。
The perspective there is is that Atli is not actually goody, that he he he he Well, if okay.
对犹太移民的限制。
Retractions on Jewish immigration.
很多人会
Many would I
那汤姆呢？
then Tom?
是的。
Yeah.
所以，分治，分治，对。
So so partition and partition and yeah.
但他接着说，我回复了他，问：那你希望谁赢？
So but he then goes on to say and I I and I tweeted back to him and said, well, who do you want to win?
大卫·苏黎世说：丘吉尔！
And David Zurich says, Churchill, exclamation mark.
我惊讶他竟然没提。
I'm shocked that he didn't.
然后他颇为动人地补充说，顺便提一下，我就是丘吉尔和肯尼迪之间的纽带——1961年我在蒙特利尔见过本-古里安。
And then he says, rather touchingly, by the way, I am the link between Churchill and Kennedy when I met Ben Gurion in Montreal in 1961.
看我的照片，那是一张我和本-古里安合影的小男孩照片。
See my pic, and there's a picture of a little boy with Ben Gurion.
那是在他拜访老朋友温斯顿与他在纽约秘密会见肯尼迪之间。
It was between his visit to his old friend Winston and his then secret meeting in New York with JFK.
哇哦。
So Wow.
太棒了，真好。
What a great That's wonderful.
这是一件美好的事。
It's a wonderful thing
拥有这样的经历，不是吗？
to have, isn't it?
等一下。
Hold on.
我认为，汤姆，这确实捕捉到了重点，我同意你的看法。
And I think actually what that captures, Tom, I I agree with you.
我的意思是，对国外的人而言，除非他们政治意识非常强，否则不选丘吉尔确实显得疯狂。
I mean, to people abroad, unless they're incredibly politicized, it probably does seem demented not to pick Churchill.
因为在海外，丘吉尔是英国性的象征，他是少数几个深深印入全球人想象中的角色之一。
Because abroad, Churchill is a symbol of Britishness, and he's one of those few characters who has imprinted himself on the on the imagination of the planet.
因此，不选择他，我认为从我们在Twitter上收到的反馈来看，对这个播客的海外粉丝来说，这似乎是一种疯狂的自我伤害和自我惩罚行为。
So to not choose him, to to I think you can tell from the responses we've on Twitter, to overseas fans of this podcast seem like a demented act of kind of national self harm and sort of self punishment.
是的。
Yeah.
绝不可能。
Never.
这是国家层面的自我伤害。
It's national self harm.
我希望我没有低估这一点，汤姆，我没说错吧？
I hope I'm not under I'm not I'm not understating that, am I, Tom?
你已经在这里听到了。
You've heard it here.
人们说体育不重要，但这里已经定下基调了。
The stakes are set people say that sport isn't isn't important.
但显然，多米尼克将这一结果描述为一种国家自残行为。
But, clearly, the result in this, Dominic has cast it as an act of national self harm.
不。
No.
不。
No.
我认为这完全合理，多米尼克，我也能理解《每日邮报》为何雇佣你。
I think that's entirely reasonable, Dominic, and I can see why the Daily Mail employ you.
但实际上，没有让丘吉尔入选反而挺有意思的。
But actually, no, it's in a way, was fun that Churchill didn't make.
因为如果他赢了，那就太可预测了，不是吗？
Because had he won, it would have been predictable, wouldn't it?
那会非常无聊。
It would be very boring.
而真正棒的是，我们让格莱斯顿参选，引发了大量关于维多利亚时代、公务员考试和肥皂价格的讨论。
Whereas it was actually great to have I think, particularly to have Gladstone running as we got a lot of people talking about Victorian arguing about civil service examinations and soap prices.
这真是太好了
And that's great to
对吧？
see, isn't it?
粉丝们，你知道的，他们不能去酒吧争论，但可以在网上讨论。
The fans, the you know, they can't go to the pub and argue about it, but they can do it online.
真是太棒了。
Wonderful wonderful to see.
对我来说，遗憾的是，决赛有点平淡无奇，因为你知道，一旦艾德礼胜出，我认为如果丘吉尔和艾德礼对决，肯定会引发更多讨论，因为可能会有更多丘吉尔的粉丝加入进来。
I suppose the disappointment for me was that the final was a bit for nonevent because you knew that as soon as Attlee got the I think Attlee Churchill final would have got generated greater discussion because probably more Churchill aficionados would have piled in.
蜂拥而至。
Piled in.
而相比之下，可怜的老格莱斯顿，因为他的政党——自由党，或者现在的自由民主党——在选举上基本上已经变得无关紧要了。
Whereas as it was, poor old Gladstone, because his party, the Liberal Party or the Liberal Democrats as it now is, has basically become, in electoral terms, a little bit of an irrelevance.
他并没有真正拥有一群为他声援的选区。
He doesn't he didn't really have a constituency batting for him.
而艾德礼，显然，如果你稍微偏向左翼，从比赛开始到结束，他都是你的首选。
Whereas Attlee, clearly, if you were at all left leaning, Attlee was your man from the start of the tournament to the end.
我的意思是，我必须说，看到他们俩都赢了，我非常高兴。
I mean, I have to say, I I, I'm very happy to see both of them win.
我觉得他们俩都很令人钦佩，富有英雄气概。
I think they're both kind of admirable, heroic
是的。
Yeah.
都是取得了惊人成就的人物。
Figures who achieved amazing things.
但从纯粹的体育角度来看，这位德高望重的老者有着如此非凡的征程。
But purely, from the sporting sense, the grand old man had had such an amazing run.
我真的很希望看到他一路走到最后。
I did want to see him go all the way.
但是谁
But Who's
到最后，他不就是那个浪漫的热门人选吗？
the romantic favorite by the end, wasn't he?
浪漫的热门人选。
The romantic favorite.
不过，我觉得这更像是体育迷的最爱，而不是政治迷的最爱。
Though, I think the I think I think the favorite of the sports fan perhaps rather than the politics fan.
但不管怎样，我觉得这是一届很棒的锦标赛。
But, anyway, I thought it was a great tournament.
真的，非常精彩。
Really, really enjoyable.
正如我所说，在某些比赛中，我确实忍不住定期查看比分。
As I say, I did genuinely, in some matches, find myself checking the score at regular intervals.
我认为我们应该再办一次这样的活动，你觉得呢？
And I think that we should do something like this again, don't you?
我同意。
I do.
我们现在已经讨论过几届未来的世界杯了。
Now we've had various discussions about future World Cups.
所以乔纳森·威尔逊，那位伟大的体育作家，为我们做了抽签，还做了评论，当时还提到过一个‘威尔逊世界杯’。
So Jonathan Wilson did the the great sports writer, did the draw for us and he did the punditry, and there was talk of a World Cup of Wilsons.
那会很不错，对吧？
That would be good, wouldn't it?
威尔逊·皮克特对阵哈罗德·威尔逊。
Wilson Pickett against Harold Wilson.
他可以
He could
同时担任评论员和参赛者。
be both pundit and participant.
但我认为可能有人在讨论一个‘诸神世界杯’。
But I think maybe we there's talk of a World Cup of gods.
我觉得那会是一个很有趣的世界杯。
Now I think that would be a fun World Cup.
你觉得诸神世界杯怎么样？
What do think about World Cup of gods?
谁不想看到雅典娜对阵奥丁呢？
Well, who wouldn't like to see Athena against Odin?
是的。
Yeah.
在四分之一决赛中，那一定会是一场精彩的比赛。
In the quarterfinally, that would be a thriller.
想想洛基和索尔的对决。
Think about Loki Thor.
对。
Yeah.
咱们就这么办吧。
Let's let's do that.
那咱们就争取在几个月内实现这个想法吧。
So let's let's aim to do that in, what, a couple of months or something.
没错。
Exactly.
所以继续收听这个播客，我们会用古代诸神世界杯给你一个惊喜。
So keep listening to the podcast, and then we'll surprise you with the World Cup of with the World Cup of ancient gods.
我认为我们不应该禁止那些目前仍被崇拜的神明。
I don't I think we should disallow gods who are currently worshipped.
这会很合理。
That would sensible.
是的。
Yes.
那将是一个不明智的举动。
That would be it would be an unwise an unwise venture.
是的。
Yes.
我觉得
I think
我觉得这会非常明智。
I think that would be very sensible.
已消亡的神祇。
Defunct gods.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
嗯，这一切都令人非常兴奋。
Well, it's all been very exciting.
谢谢收听。
Thank you for listening.
希望你们喜欢。
I hope you enjoyed it.
我们几天后就回来，对吧？
We will be back in a couple of days now, won't it?
多米尼克，我们接下来有什么安排？
What have we got coming up, Dominic?
提醒我一下。
Remind me.
我们有本·麦金太尔，当然。
We've got We've we've got Ben McIntyre, of course.
我们有本·麦金太尔和间谍。
We've got Ben McIntyre and spies.
本·麦金太尔将谈论
We've Ben McIntyre talking
间谍的事。
about spies.
是的。
Yes.
所以会有很多精彩内容。
So so lots of excitement there.
再过几个月，也许我们会回归《远古诸神世界杯》。
And in a couple of months, perhaps, we'll be back with the World Cup of Ancient Gods.
非常感谢您的收听。
Thank you very much for listening.
再见。
Goodbye.
感谢您收听《历史其余部分》。
Thanks for listening to The Rest is History.
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网址是 restishistorypod.com。
That's restishistorypod.com.
特洛伊、《奥德赛》、《伊利亚特》——这些伟大的古代史诗都描绘了一场摧毁了三千年前相互关联的帝国的浩劫。
Troy, the Odyssey, the Iliad, all of these great ancient epics depict a monumental collapse that destroyed the interconnected empires of three thousand years ago.
要了解荷马在事件发生四百年后所记载的青铜时代末日，敬请订阅《帝国世界历史》——这是一档同样由目标悬挂者制作的播客，我们将深入探讨古代历史上最重大的帝国崩溃。
And to understand the Bronze Age apocalypse that Homer read about four hundred years after it happened, subscribe to Empire World History, a fellow goal hanger podcast where we are deep diving into the biggest imperial collapse in ancient history.
为了感受一下这个系列的风格，这里有一段我们与弗莱本人对话的片段。
To get a flavor of the series, here is a clip from our episode with none other than Fry.
这是我最喜爱的主题之一，希腊人的故事，特洛伊围城，以及奥德修斯的归家。
It is one of my favorite subjects, the story of the Greeks, and the siege of Troy and Odysseus' return home, of course.
我说的是希腊人。
I say Greeks.
荷马称他们为阿开亚人、达那俄斯人、阿尔戈斯人。
Homer called them the Achaeans, the Danaans, the Argives.
‘希腊人’这个词是后来才出现的，但它实际上指的是迈锡尼人——一个本质上崇尚荣誉与声望的武士贵族阶层，他们追求永恒的荣耀，也就是他们所说的‘kleos’。
The word Greeks is a much later one, but it refers really to the Mycenaeans, a warrior aristocracy, essentially, obsessed with honor and reputation that would give them an eternal glory, a kleos, as they call it.
就是这个‘kleos’。
It's the kleos.
它出现在许多希腊人的名字里。
It's in the name of so many Greeks.
你知道的吧？
You know?
克利奥帕特拉和所有的苏格拉底。
Cleopatra and all the Socrates.
还有所有的荣耀，赫拉克勒斯，也就是海格力斯，你知道的，赫拉的荣耀。
And and all the kleos, Heracles, who's Hercules, you know, hearer's glory.
他实际上被命名为赫拉克勒斯，因为她讨厌他，因为他宙斯的私生子，而她从不喜欢宙斯的私生子——她那个不忠的丈夫。
She he was actually named Herakles because she hated him because he was a love child of Zeus, and she never liked Zeus' love child, her husband, her errant husband.
于是为了安抚她，塔乌里斯奥斯建议这个在底比斯出生的婴儿改名，把他叫做赫拉克勒斯，意为‘赫拉的荣耀’。
And so as an attempt to placate her Taurisius, because he was born in Thebes, suggested that he change his name, his as a baby, this was, to Heracles, the glory of Hera.
但这并没有多大帮助。
But it didn't help much.
根本毫无作用。
It didn't help at all.
然后雅典娜甚至趁赫拉熟睡时，把他放在她的乳房上，因为如果他吸吮她的乳汁，就能建立情感纽带。
And then Athena even even put her on Hera's breast when Hera was asleep because it would bond them if he suckled her milk.
但她醒来后看到了，就把孩子甩开，她的乳汁洒向天空，形成了银河。
But she woke and saw it and tossed him away, and her breast milk spread across the sky to form the Milky Way.
我不知道这个故事。
I didn't know that story.
因为‘银河’这个词源自希腊语中的‘牛奶’。
Because galaxy, of course, is from the Greek for for milk.
Galactic 就像‘乳酸’那样。
Galactic as in lactic.
对。
Right.
所以巧克力制造商们说得对。
So the chocolate makers are right.
无论如何，这完全是另一回事。
Anyway, this is completely separate.
真棒。
Lovely.
Kleyos。
Kleyos.
继续说。
Keep going.
别停。
Don't stop.
Kley
The Kley
我们真的很希望你喜欢这个片段。
Well, we really hope you enjoyed that clip.
收听更多关于青铜时代末日及其如何塑造古希腊史诗的内容。
Hear more on the Bronze Age apocalypse and how it shaped the ancient Greek epics.
请在您收听播客的平台订阅《帝国》。
Just subscribe to Empire wherever you get your podcasts.
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