366. 现代中国的缔造者

在中国革命取得全国胜利前夕，毛泽东同志号召全党重新开始学习。

On the eve of nationwide victory in the Chinese revolution, comrade Mao Zedong called on the whole party to start learning afresh.

我们当时做得相当不错。

We did that pretty well.

因此，进入城市后，我们迅速恢复了经济，并完成了社会主义改造。

And consequently, after entering the cities, we were able to rehabilitate the economy very quickly and then to accomplish the socialist transformation.

但我们必须承认，此后几年我们学习得还不够好。

But we must admit that we have not learned well enough in the subsequent years.

我们将主要精力放在政治运动上，未能掌握建设国家所需的技能。

Expanding our main efforts on political campaigns, we did not master the skills needed to build our country.

我们的社会主义建设未能顺利推进，并在政治上经历了严重挫折。

Our socialist construction failed to progress satisfactorily, and we experienced grave setbacks politically.

如今我们的任务是实现现代化，我们缺乏必要知识的问题更加明显。

Now that our task is to achieve modernization, our lack of the necessary knowledge is even more obvious.

因此，全党必须重新开始学习。

So the whole party must start learning again.

我们应该通过实践、从书籍中以及从他人和自身的正反经验中，以多种方式学习。

We should learn in different ways through practice, from books, and from the experience, both positive and negative of others as well as our own.

必须克服保守主义和本本主义。

Conservatism and book worship should be overcome.

只要我们团结一致、同心协力，解放思想、勤于思考，努力学习过去未曾掌握的知识，毫无疑问，我们将能够加快新长征的步伐。

So long as we unite as one, work in concert, emancipate our minds, use our heads and try to learn what we did not know before, there is no doubt that we will be able to quicken the pace of our new long march.

在中央委员会和国务院的领导下，让我们勇敢前进，改变我国的落后状况，将其建设成为现代化的社会主义强国。

Under the leadership of the central committee and the state council, let us advance courageously to change the backward condition of our country and turn it into a modern and powerful socialist state.

所以，汤姆·霍兰，这是邓小平在1978年12月13日的讲话，这个人后来彻底改变了中国，汤姆，我认为这样说是有道理的，对吧？

So Tom Holland, that was Deng Xiaoping on the 12/13/1978, the man who was to transform China so radically that Tom, I think it's reasonable to argue, isn't it?

你可以认为他是我们这一代人中，也许是上个世纪最重要的两三位人物之一。

That he is one of the two or three most significant figures in our lifetime, maybe of the last century, you could argue.

我认为

I think

你当然可以这样认为。

you could certainly argue that.

仅从每天阅读报纸就能明显看出，中国所经历的变革是多么深刻。

And it's evident just from reading the newspapers every day just how profound the transformation that China has affected.

基本上，自从毛泽东主席去世以来——这一点在刚才的段落中有所提及。

Basically since the death of chairman Mao who was alluded to in Yes.

在你读的那段话中，中国共产党所施展的惊人手段是：在表面上仍保持共产主义的同时，实施了各种资本主义的策略和手段。

In the passage you read, because the incredible conjuring trick that the Chinese Communist Party has done is to affect all kinds of capitalist wheezes and maneuvers while remaining overtly communist.

是的。

Yes.

因此，现代中国究竟有多资本主义？它又有多共产主义？共产主义过去留下了什么遗产？更深远的过去又留下了什么遗产？这些问题确实非常引人入胜。

And so the question of just how capitalist is modern China, just how communist is it, what is the inheritance from the communist past, what is the inheritance from the deeper past is, I mean, such a fascinating fascinating question.

而且，多米尼克，我想我们应该坦率承认，这些问题我们并不特别擅长回答。

And not Dominic, I think we should put our hands up and admit not questions that we are ideally qualified to answer.

当然，我个人对这个问题非常着迷，但我们恰好有一位理想的人选来为我们解答这些问题。

Although of course, I mean, is fascinated by that question but we have the ideal person to answer that question those questions for us.

他是我们节目的老朋友，米特教授，目前是牛津大学现代中国历史与政治教授，但他即将前往哈佛大学。

He's very much friend of the show, Rana Mitter, who currently is professor of the history and politics of modern China at Oxford, but he's about to head Harvard Woods.

所以牛津的损失正是新剑桥的收获，您还著有两本关于中国在二战中经历的精彩著作：《中国与日本的战争》和《中国的好战争》。多米尼克，你和拉纳就中国在二战中的这两段极其惨烈而有力的对话印象深刻。

So Oxford's loss is well the New Cambridge's gain and author of two wonderful books on China's experience in the second world war, China's war with Japan and China's good war And Dominic, did those two incredibly harrowing and powerful episodes with Rana on China in the second world war.

拉纳，欢迎再次回到节目。

But Rana, welcome back to the show.

可能与我们今天话题更相关的是你大约二十年前写的那本书，对吧？

The book that's probably more relevant to this is one that you wrote maybe twenty years ago, is it?

《更好的革命：中国与现代世界的抗争》。

A Better Revolution China's Struggle with the Modern World.

我猜你写这本书时，中国转型的成功程度还不那么明显。

And I'm guessing you wrote that when it was less evident just how successful the process of China's transformation was.

那时的中国与现在大不相同，汤姆。

It was a very different China at that time, Tom.

没错。

That's right.

很高兴能再次和你以及多米尼克一起做节目。

It's great to be back on with you and with Dominic.

我得说，是的。

And I have to say yes.

那本书《苦涩的革命：中国与现代世界的斗争》写于我头发还多一些、肚子也稍微平坦一点的时候。

That book, A Bitter Revolution, China's Struggle with the Modern World, was written at a time when I had a bit more hair, and my stomach was probably a little flatter.

你头发可多了，拉纳。

You've got loads of hair, Rana.

那时候还更多呢。

Oh, there was even more then.

而且也不是灰的。

And it's not gray.

当然，如果我是当时中国的最高政治局领导人，我会指出，这可能是因为我有自己的染发供应商，毕竟，在中国领导层中，头发越黑越久，越能体现你依然雄风不减。

Of course, if I were the time Chinese top Politburo leader, I'd point out that might be because I had my own hair dye supplier since, of course, it's a sign of great virility amongst the Chinese leadership that your hair must remain as black as possible for as long as possible to show that you've got it you still got it.

但有趣的是，唯一例外的是习近平，他头上已经有些许灰发，而许多研究北京政治的人认为，这表明他足够自信，根本不需要做那种‘头发整容’。

The one exception actually interestingly being Xi Jinping, who's had a little bit of gray show, and I many people think who are doing the, you know, the criminology of of Beijing, that that shows that he's confident enough that he doesn't really need to to do the head eye shuffle.

但我向你保证，这里的一切都是天然的。

But I promise you, everything here is natural.

但回到二十一世纪初，也就是两千年代初，你说得对。

But back at, the start of the twenty first century, the early two thousands, you're absolutely right.

中国本身正经历着一些变化，虽然这么说听起来可能有点奇怪，但这对我们今天关于邓小平以及当代中国是如何形成的讨论非常相关——在某些方面，那是一个更自由的中国。

China itself was going through and it might sound odd to say this, but it's very relevant to our discussion today about Deng Xiaoping and how, you know, contemporary China was was made, that, in some ways, it was a more liberal China.

那时的中国刚刚走出天安门事件十多年，我相信我们很快就会谈到1989年以及那可怕的一年。

Now it was the China that was just a decade or so out of Tiananmen Square, and I'm sure we'll talk about 1989 and that horrific year quite soon.

但那时看起来，中国似乎并不会成为民主国家。

But it was a time when it looked as if not, I think, that China was gonna become a democracy.

我一直认为这非常不可能，大多数中国问题专家也持相同观点。

I always thought that that was very unlikely, and most China analysts would actually share that view.

但人们普遍认为，中国可能会发展出更多的公民社会，可能会发展出更自由的媒体，可能会尝试一些以实用主义而非意识形态为评判标准的理念。

But the view that China might be developing more of a civil society, might be developing a freer press, might be trying out ideas that would essentially be judged on the idea of pragmatism rather than ideology.

所有这些在两千年代初都显得非常可能。

All of that seemed very possible in the early two thousands.

我的书《苦涩的革命》回顾了中国历史上更早的一个时期——所谓的五四运动，这是二十世纪初伟大的改革运动之一，并试图在大约二十年前的中国中寻找那个更自由的中国的遗产。

And my book, A Bitter Revolution, looks back at an earlier period of Chinese history, the so called May fourth movement, one of the great reform movements of the early twentieth century, and tried to find the legacy of that more liberal China in the China of twenty years or so ago.

正如我们可能最终会讨论的那样，当今的中国看起来远不如以前自由，更加受限，更加保守。

As we may end up discussing, today's China does look much less liberal, much more constrained, much more buttoned down.

人们常认为的中国历史真正转折点，是从二十世纪七十年代末到邓小平九十年代退休这段时间。

So the real pivots that people often see in Chinese history runs from the the end of the nineteen seventies to Deng's retirement in the nineteen nineties.

为了帮助那些对中国历史不太熟悉的听众理解这一点，二十世纪四十年代末曾发生过一场伟大的革命。

So to put this into context for those of our listeners not super familiar with Chinese history, there had been the great revolution at the end of the nineteen forties.

之后是毛泽东的一系列实验，常常是血腥的实验，比如大跃进、文化大革命等等，这些我们都已经和你讨论过了。

There have been Mao's experiments, often very bloody experiments, the great leap forward, the cultural revolution and so on, which we've talked about with you.

然后毛泽东于1976年去世。

And then Mao dies in 1976.

没错，是这样吧？

That's right, isn't it?

随后爆发了一场接班人的权力斗争。

And there is a power struggle to succeed him.

因此出现了以他的妻子为首的四人帮。

So there's the gang of four involving his widow.

党内还有一些更务实的保守派人物。

There are other perhaps more pragmatic sort of conservative figures in the party.

有位叫邓小平的人，我们待会儿会谈到，他当时其实有点被边缘化了，对吧？

There is this chap called Deng Xiaoping who we're gonna talk about who is in he's slightly in exile, isn't he, at this point?

他已经被召回，但处于半脱离状态。

He's been brought back, but he's semi detached.

所以给我们讲讲毛泽东去世时二十世纪七十年代各方势力的格局吧。

So give us a sort of sense of the of the constellation of forces in the nineteen seventies when Mao dies.

是的。

Yes.

多米尼克，二十世纪七十年代是一个极其引人入胜的时期，实际上，这也是当今历史学家试图开拓中国史研究新前沿时最感兴趣的时代之一。

The nineteen seventies, Dominic, is an absolutely fascinating period, and actually, it's one of the ones that's of most interest today to historians who are trying to open up the next frontier of academic research on Chinese history.

他们称之为‘漫长的七十年代’，因为它实际上始于六十年代著名的文化大革命中期，而我们三人之前在《历史其余部分》的某一集中也讨论过这一点，这个时期一直延续到八十年代初。

They call it the long nineteen seventies because it starts really during the middle of the famous cultural revolution of the nineteen sixties, and the three of us have talked about that on an earlier issue of, edition of The Rest is History, and it goes probably somewhere actually into the early nineteen eighties.

实际上，有两位历史学家陈兼和奥德·安娜·韦斯塔即将出版一本新书，名为《伟大的变革》，正是关于这个时期的。

There's a great new book actually forthcoming from the two historians, Chen Jian and Odd Anna Vesta, called The Great Transformation, which is exactly about this period.

简而言之，之所以重要，是因为这是中国尝试一系列经济和社会实验的关键时刻。

Briefly to say why it's important, it's essentially the moment when China tries a succession of economic as well as social experiments.

我们会尽量避免使用专业术语，但今天的讨论会涉及经济学，因为这是重塑中国乃至整个世界的重要因素。

And we're gonna keep it as untechnical as possible, but economics will come into our discussion today because it's one of the things that reshapes not just China but the world during this period.

所以，大致到19年，嗯。

So, essentially, up to '19 yeah.

让我们说，直到1966年文化大革命爆发之前，中国在很多方面拥有一个典型的苏联式经济。

Let's say up to about 1966, the outbreak of the China Cultural Revolution, China has what you might call a conventional Soviet style economy in many ways.

这是一种自上而下的计划经济。

It's command economy, top down.

斯大林会立刻认出这种模式。

Stalin would have recognized it.

这并不奇怪，因为当毛泽东和他的同志们决定建立一种新经济时，他们还能向谁请教呢？当然是约瑟夫·斯大林本人，他甚至还写过一本简明的经济学教科书。

That's not surprising because when Mao and his friends decided they were going to found a new economy, who better to consult than Joseph Stalin himself who wrote a short textbook on economics?

我敢肯定，这种书如今只可能在极少数地方找到，比如朝鲜，或者英国某些高级公共休息室，但我们就不深入讨论了。

I'm sure it's the the kind of thing which would today find a place only in a very, very small number of places, possibly North Korea or possibly a few UK senior common rooms, but we won't go into into that.

但除此之外，对毛泽东而言，以苏联模式重塑经济同样至关重要。

But beyond that, it was important to Mao in terms of reshaping the economy Soviet style.

然后在二十世纪六十年代到七十年代初，文化革命本身使经济几乎转向封闭。

Then in the nineteen sixties to early seventies, the Cultural Revolution itself, the economy turns almost inwards.

你知道，中国确实切断了与外部世界的大量贸易往来。

You know, China really breaks off lots of its trade with the outside world.

它不再引进外部的思想。

It doesn't bring in, outside ideas.

它也没有自我更新。

It doesn't renew itself.

可以说，中国的知识产权严重衰退，因为早在二十世纪六十年代初，他们就与苏联决裂了。

The intellectual property of China, you might say, is really run down because, of course, they're split up with the Soviets in the early nineteen sixties.

因此，他们唯一的技术来源——苏联——也不再与他们交流。

So the one source of technology which they have, the Soviet Union, is no longer talking to them.

这就把我们带到了你故事开端的二十世纪七十年代中期。

And that brings us up to where you've started our story in the mid nineteen seventies.

毛泽东最终于1976年以83岁高龄去世。

Chairman Mao dies finally at the age of 83 in 1976.

他的死其实相当痛苦，患有肌萎缩侧索硬化症，也就是人们常说的卢·格里克病。

Pretty horrible death actually from AMS, Lou Gehrig's disease as it's sometimes known.

领导层分裂为两个派系。

And the leadership is split between two factions.

激进左派，后来被称为四人帮，包括毛泽东的妻子，但本质上是四位非常激进的左翼人物。

The hard left, sometimes known later known as the gang of four, including Mao's wife, but essentially four very radical left figures.

而另一个相对温和的派系，以总理周恩来为首，他已于1976年4月几个月前去世。

And then a relatively more moderate faction, prime minister Zhou Enlai, who's probably the leader of that relatively moderate faction, just died a few months beforehand in April 1976.

事实上，他的葬礼引发了普通民众的抗议，他们认为他是领导层中一位正直的人物。

And in fact, his funeral leads to a demonstration by ordinary people who, you regard him as as a decent figure in the the leadership.

但如你所说，留下的还有邓小平。

But left behind, as you say, is Deng Xiaoping.

这些人物当然还促成了理查德·尼克松访华。

These are figures who, of course, amongst other things, encouraged the visit of Richard Nixon to China.

这件事发生在四年前的1972年。

That had happened just four years before in 1972.

因此，这次美国之行也是表明相对更国际化、更温和的派系试图发出自己声音的标志之一。

So that American visit is also one of the signs of how a relatively more internationalist, more moderate faction was trying to make itself heard.

但在1976年毛泽东去世时，这场斗争尚未分出胜负。

But in 1976, when Mao died, the battle was not yet won.

当时是激进派与改革派之间的激烈对抗。

It was very much radicals versus reformers.

毛泽东在生命的最后几年和几个月里，一直担心自己会落得和斯大林一样的下场。

And, one of the things that Mao was worrying about in his final years and months was that the fate of Stalin would be visited on him.

斯大林在死后遭到谴责。

Stalin was posthumously condemned.

毛泽东最终并没有被谴责，是吗？

Mao in the end is not condemned, is he?

因此，是否可以说，这场派系斗争不仅是为了掌控中国的最高权力，更是为了把自己塑造为毛泽东的正统继承者？

So is is there a sense in which the faction fight is not just to seize the commanding heights of China, but to present themselves as the authentic heirs of Mao?

没错，汤姆。

That's absolutely right, Tom.

首先，可以说毛泽东从未被正式谴责过。

First of all, it's fair to say that Mao was never and has never been officially condemned.

从某种意义上说，他在长征夺权过程中地位太过重要，正如邓小平所说的一部分话那样。

He's too big a figure in a sense in the long march to power, to use, you know, part of the phrase from, Deng Xiaoping's statement.

他作为关键人物，不能简单地从革命圣殿中剔除。

He's too big a figure simply to throw out the revolutionary pantheon.

他就像列宁、斯大林以及苏联革命、布尔什维克革命中所有其他重要人物的集合体。

He's Lenin and Stalin and all the other major figures of the Soviet revolution, the Bolshevik revolution combined together in one person.

但话说回来，几年后，让我们快进到1981年，党通过了一项正式决议，明确指出文化大革命——这是毛泽东个人的发明和决定——是一场需要谴责的灾难，这实际上是一个相当明确的表态。

But having said that, a few years later, just to fast forward for a moment to 1981, there is an official resolution of the party which does say that the Cultural Revolution, which is Mao's own personal invention and decision, is a disaster to be condemned, and that is essentially a pretty clear statement.

党否定了他的一个重大政策决策。

The party was repudiating one of his major major policy decisions.

但在1976年、1977年，局势依然动荡，因为我们把这视为邓小平的时代。

But there's still a turmoil in 1976, '77 because we think of this as the era of Deng Xiaoping.

我们已经提到了他的名字。

We've mentioned his name.

我们会大量谈论他。

We're gonna talk a lot about him.

但值得记住的是，当时接掌权力的并不是邓小平。

But it's worth remembering that Deng Xiaoping was not the man who took over at this time.

毛泽东几乎是在临终之际，亲自选中了这位如今几乎被遗忘的人物——华国锋。

The man who Mao essentially tapped on the shoulder, you know, pretty much almost literally from his his deathbed, was a now almost forgotten figure called Hua Guofeng.

他确实是毛泽东之后唯一一位拥有主席头衔的人。

He was in fact the only other person after Mao to have the title chairman.

因此，从毛泽东主席，过渡到了华国锋主席。

So from chairman Mao, they went to chairman Hua.

一方面，他公开表示将遵循毛泽东的所有政策。

Now on the one hand, he was someone who openly said that he would follow all of the policies of Mao.

他被戏称为‘凡是派’，因为他声称：毛泽东提出的任何东西，我们都将遵循。

He he was nicknamed the whateverest on the grounds that he said that whatever Mao has put forward, we will we will follow.

但事实上，他并不愚蠢。

But, actually, he was no fool.

掌权后不久，他就迅速发动了对四人帮和极左派的清洗。

And very, very quickly afterwards, after coming to power, he launched a purge against the gang of four and the hard left.

华国锋而非四人帮被毛泽东选中的原因在于，毛泽东本人担心自己的文化大革命遗产无法延续。

And the reason that Hua Guofeng and not the gang of four were clearly tapped on the shoulder by Mao was that Mao himself was worried that his legacy of the Cultural Revolution wouldn't carry on.

这显然一直萦绕在他心头。

That was clearly on his mind.

但他也足够务实，意识到真正推动最激进政策的人可能无法长期维持权力，最终会因自身的矛盾而崩溃。

But he was also pragmatic enough to realize that the people who actually were behind the most radical policies probably could not sustain power and, in the end, would fall under the weight of their own contradictions.

他们会垮台。

They would collapse.

因此，他最后的举动就是选择了一个更为务实的人——华国锋，这也正是中国政治走向更温和方向的起点。

And for that reason, his very, very last act was to tap someone a bit more pragmatic in the shape of Hua Bo Feng, and that's why the trajectory of Chinese politics began to move in a more moderate direction.

于是，毛泽东在一张纸条上潦草地写下几行字给华国锋：慢慢来。

So he gives he he he scrawls a few lines on a scrap of paper, Mao does to Hoagofeng, go slowly.

别着急。

Don't rush.

按照过去的指示行事。

Act according to past directions.

他照做了。

He did.

他还加了一行字，或者说当时低声说了一句，我经常在牛津大学这里做行政决策时使用这句话，意思是：如果你负责这件事，我就放心了。

He added another line or was supposed to sort of muttered a line, which I quite often use when, making administrative decisions in the college here in Oxford, which is, which means if you're in charge of doing this, I'm at ease with it.

我同意。

I'm fine with it.

而且

And

对。

Right.

他在这里的意思是，我必须强调，这和我在大学里说这句话时的意思不一样：你现在需要出去逮捕一大批执行错误政策的人。

What he meant by that in this case, which I hasten to add, is not what I mean when I'm doing this in my, my college, is you need to go out now and arrest a whole bunch of people who are following the wrong policy.

换句话说，他实际上批准了华国锋，以及包括王邓小平（注：应为邓小平）在内的若干人——后者当时是党内高层安全机构的负责人——去启动中国历史的下一阶段，即逮捕四人帮，并转向相对更为温和的政策，这一转变很快将促成邓小平的崛起。

In other words, he was basically giving the blessing to Hua Wofeng that he, along with various people, a man named Wang Deng Xiaoping, who was essentially head of security apparatus in the amongst the top leadership, should go and essentially launch the next phase of Chinese history, which would involve the deposing and arrest of the gang of four and the move instead to a relatively more moderate set of policies which would quite soon lead to the rise of Deng Xiaoping.

既然你提到了他，那就让我们把他推到舞台中央吧。

Well, now that you mentioned him, let's bring him on to center stage.

所以邓小平，他当时已经是个老人了。

So Deng Xiaoping, he has been I mean, he's already quite an old man.

我的意思是，这简直是个老人政治体制，对吧？

I mean, this is quite a gerontocratic system, isn't it?

而他一直都在那里。

And he has been there.

他出生在四川，亲身经历了所有关键时刻。

He's born in Sichuan and he's been there at all the key moments.

他经常在毛泽东身边，瑞娜，你说对吧？

Often at Mao's side, think, Rana, that's right, isn't it?

给我们讲讲他的个性、背景以及到目前为止的经历吧，因为这是一个非常引人入胜的故事。

Give us some sense of him as a personality and his background and his record up to this point because it's a fascinating story.

首先，多米尼克，我们来具体说一下数字：1976到1977年，这个故事真正开始展开时，他已经73岁了。

Well, first of all, Dominic, to put numbers on it, he was well, in 1977 when this '76, '77 when the story really begins to take off, he was 73 years old.

所以，拿他和美国总统相比，他简直是个老古董了。

So compared, let's say, to the president of The United States, he was just a a strip plane.

这么说公平吗？这么说很公平。

It's fair to, it's fair to say.

但尽管他73岁了，和美国总统一样，他看起来丝毫没有失去活力。

But although he was 73 years old, rather like the president of The United States, he appeared to have lost none of his energy.

他出生在四川省。

He'd been born in Sichuan province.

很多人可能听说过四川，尤其是因为那里出产令人惊叹的辛辣美食，但值得注意的是，四川也是以政治上的激进著称的地区。

Now many people will know Sichuan by name, not least because of the fantastic fiery food that comes from that area, but it's worth noting that it's also an area that's known for the fieriness of its politics.

它一直是中国相当激进的一个部分。

It's always been quite a radical part of China.

它位于中国西南边陲，长期以来与东部沿海或东部地区的大城市如北京、南京等有所隔绝，这使得当地人能够发展出自己独特的政治和社会形态。

It's down in the Far Southwest, and it's always been a bit separated from the big capital cities of the Eastern Seaboard or Eastern Region, Beijing, Nanjing, and so forth, which has let people get on a bit with their own type of politics and society there.

邓小平并非出身贫寒。

Deng Xiaoping was not born into poverty.

从广义上讲，他出生在一个农民家庭。

He was born into a peasant family in a broad sense.

那是一个相当富裕的农民家庭。

It was quite a rich peasant family.

我认为他家的房子有17个房间。

I think his family house had 17 rooms.

我不知道你们平时住的是什么样的豪宅，但我要说，如果我有17个房间，我肯定会住得非常

I don't know what kind of mansions you guys live in, but I have to say if I had 17 rooms, I'd be living extremely

我真希望有17个房间。

I'd love 17 rooms.

是的，没错。

Well, yes.

确实如此。

Indeed.

我认为公平地说，二十世纪早期中国的抵押贷款利率可能比二十一世纪晚期英国的要合理得多。

I I think to be fair, probably the mortgage rates in early twentieth century China were more reasonable than they are in in late twenty first century Britain.

但他基本上成长于这种传统的富裕农民家庭背景中。

But he basically found himself as part of this traditional rich peasant background.

实际上，他接受了教育，既学习了大量中国古典经典，也学习了当时日益普及的新式现代学科。

And, actually, he got an education, learning both quite a bit of the Chinese classics, but also the new modern subjects that were becoming very widespread.

请记住，他出生的那一年——1904年——正是中国清朝，最后一个王朝，最终废除传统科举考试的年份。这一制度在过去一千年里一直是进入官僚体系的门槛。

Remember, the year that he was born, nineteen o four, was exactly the same year that China's Qing dynasty, the last dynasty, finally abolished the traditional imperial exams, which for about a thousand years had been taken as the gateway to rising up in the bureaucracy.

经过一千年后，整个体系被一笔勾销了。

And after a thousand years, that whole system was basically swept away with a stroke of a pen.

因此，邓小平实际上是第一批接受现代教育的学生中的一员，这一代人开始学习现代学科、语言、科学等等。

So Deng Xiaoping is literally born in the first generation of, students who were in the next generation who would study modern studies, languages, science, and so forth.

他受到鼓舞，于1920年前往法国，参加了一项勤工俭学项目。

And he was inspired enough actually by, 1920 to head out to France where he took part in a work study program.

他对激进政治产生了浓厚兴趣，而当时这种思潮在中国各地也正广泛兴起。

He became very interested in radical politics, which was also buzzing in a big way in much of China at that time.

请记住，1921年是中国共产党成立的年份。

Bearing in mind, 1921 is the founding year of the Chinese Communist Party.

所以这一切都发生在这个时期。

So it's all happening at this time.

他学法语了吗？

Does he learn French?

学得不太好。

Not very well.

学得不太好。

Not very well.

他试过，但最终，邓小平虽然拥有许多才能，也存在许多缺点，而学习外语并不是他的强项。

He has a go, but in the end, Deng Xiaoping had many skills as when he as well as many flaws, but learning foreign languages wasn't really one of them.

他在法国期间，培养了对牛角面包的深厚喜爱。

He did, while he was in in France, develop a deep love for croissant.

真的吗？

Oh, did he?

必须指出的是，让我们快进到几十年后，当他于七八十年代重返欧洲并成为最高领导人时，他确保重新启动了牛角面包的供应，以便自己能继续享用。

And it has to be said, fast forwarding just for a moment, when he finally gets back to Europe as top leader in the seventies and eighties, he makes sure that the croissant supply is restarted so that he can keep up with those.

所以，他确实从法国人那里学到了一些东西。

So he does learn something from the French.

他还了解了他在欧洲所目睹的普通工人所面临的可怕境遇。

He also learns about what he saw as the horrific conditions of ordinary workers in Europe.

这进一步激励了他，在共产党和共产国际的影响下，深化了他的认知。

And this inspires him yet further, again, under Communist Party and Comintern influence, to develop his knowledge.

因此，他最终进入了我认为是历史上名称最宏伟的大学——位于莫斯科的东方劳动者大学。

So he ends up at, I think, the university with the most magnificent name in the history of universities, the Moscow based University of the Toilers of the East.

我的意思是，这名字真够棒的。

I mean, it's a great a great name.

正如有人指出的，我认为是历史学家菲利普·斯诺说的，如果你称它为‘东方劳动者中央大学’，就可以缩写成‘Cute’。

As someone pointed out, I think it was actually historian Philip Snow, if you call it the central university of the toilers of the East, you can abbreviate it to cute.

所以，他上了‘Cute’。

So, he attended he attended cute.

说实话，那地方一点也不可爱。

It It wasn't a very cute place, have to say.

相当严格。

Pretty hard line.

但所有这些意味着，毛泽东当然从未有过海外经历。

But all of this meant that overseas experience, which Mao never had, of course.

毛泽东一生只出国过两次，都是去见斯大林。

Mao only ever traveled overseas twice, to visit Stalin as it happened.

他阅读广泛，但从没去过法国，也没去过英国。

He read widely, but he never went to France, never went to Britain.

所以邓小平拥有欧洲的经历。

So Deng had that European experience.

但他也在二十世纪二十年代的莫斯科以一种极为严肃的方式学习马克思主义。

But he also found himself really learning Marxism in a hardcore sort of way in Moscow in the nineteen twenties.

这让他回到了中国。

That brings him back to China.

就在那时，他加入了非凡的地下共产主义运动。

And then at that point, he becomes part of the extraordinary underground communist movement.

他在20世纪30年代，即1934年至1935年间参加了长征，那次远征是因为当时蒋介石领导的国民党政府的迫害，被迫向中国内陆转移。

He was on the the long march in the nineteen thirties, 1934 to '35, that journey that meant that under, essentially, persecution from the nationalist government of China at the time under Chiang Kai shek, they're forced to march to the interior of China.

记住，正是这次长征真正筛选出了共产主义革命运动中最坚定、最核心的成员。

Remember, this is the long march that really sorts the absolute hardcore, diamond hard center of the communist revolutionary movement.

那些幸存下来、徒步穿越中国内陆数千英里的人，无疑是革命等级体系中最纯粹的精英。

The people who survive that, you know, thousands and thousands of miles of marching through internal China are really the purest of the pure in terms of the revolutionary hierarchy.

然后，他本质上成为了这一运动的一部分。

And then he essentially becomes part of that movement.

他是一位重要的军事人物。

He is a major military figure.

人们常常忘记，他在20世纪40年代末与国民党的内战中实际上是一位颇具才能的军事战略家。

It's often forgotten he was actually a military strategist of some skill in the civil war against the nationalists in the late nineteen forties.

当然，毛泽东和他的共产主义盟友、战友们于1949年征服了中国大陆。

Mao, of course, conquers the Mainland along with his communist allies, his communist comrades, 1949.

在那之后的几年里，邓小平是毛泽东掌权时期最重要的得力助手之一。

And in the years following that, Deng is a big, big right hand man to Mao in terms of his period in power.

这为你揭示了后来发生的事情。

This gives you an indication of what happens later.

在二十世纪五十年代，当他们推行土地改革——即重新分配土地，并残酷地处决了成千上万的地主时，毛泽东不得不告诉邓小平在五十年代停止杀害这么多人，因为死的人实在太多了。

In the nineteen fifties, as they undertake land reform, which is basically the redistribution of land and the brutal killing of many, you know, hundreds of thousands of, landlords in China, Mao has to tell Deng Xiaoping in the nineteen fifties to stop killing so many people because he's killing so many.

因此，认为毛泽东比邓小平更加暴力的说法，

So the idea that Mao is this sort of supremely violent character compared to Deng,

你

you

如果纵观更宏观的历史轨迹，这个说法其实并不完全准确。

know, that the story's a bit different if you look at the wider trajectory.

接着，从文化大革命时期——即邓小平在六十年代的经历，一直到毛泽东去世，这段时期充满了起伏跌宕。

And then finally, taking it through the Cultural Revolution period, Deng's nineteen sixties, taking us up to, you know, the death of Mao, is a period of up and down.

起初，他是文化大革命的坚定支持者。

He is, at the beginning, an absolutely hardline supporter of the Cultural Revolution.

说他是个持不同政见者，这根本不是事实。

The idea that he was, you know, some sort of dissenterist was never the the case.

但他一直受到怀疑，因为在二十世纪六十年代初，他曾与另一位高层领导人刘少奇一起，在大跃进灾难之后，重新引入了一种有限的资本主义形式。

But he was under suspicion because in the early nineteen sixties, he had been involved along with another top leader, You Xiaoping, in bringing back a form of limited capitalism to China after the disaster of the great leap forward.

1958年到1962年，一场由严重误判、近乎疯狂的粮食政策引发的可怕饥荒，导致数千万农民饿死。

Nineteen fifty eight to sixty two, a horrific famine caused by a deeply misjudged and frankly delusional economic policy about growing grain, that had gone horribly wrong and starved, you know, tens of millions of peasants to death.

因此，邓小平和刘少奇在这个时期成为了温和派。

So Deng Xiaoping and Liu Xiaoping become the moderates at this point.

这有点像列宁在二十年代推行的新经济政策，他们引入了一些更多的资本主义元素。

A little like Lenin with the new economic policy of the twenties, they bring in a bit more capitalism.

这确实振兴了经济，但毛泽东从未完全原谅他背离社会主义的做法。

It does revive the economy, but Mao never entirely forgave him for having abandoned socialism.

因此，到了文化大革命中期，邓小平被毛泽东迫害。

And so when it comes to the middle of the Cultural Revolution, Deng Xiaoping is persecuted by Mao.

他的儿子邓朴方曾被红卫兵抓走，从窗户扔出去，导致终身残疾。

His son, Deng Pufang, is famously captured by red guards and thrown out of a window and crippled for life.

他余生都坐在轮椅上。

He's in a wheelchair for the rest of his rest of his life.

邓小平成为不受欢迎的人，基本上在文化大革命中期被清除出领导层。

And Deng Xiaoping becomes a persona non grata, essentially purged from the leadership by the midpoint of the Cultural Revolution.

他在二十世纪七十年代初曾短暂复出，但于1976年再次被罢黜。

He's briefly brought back in the early nineteen seventies, but then is purged again in 1976.

因此，他是一位完全忠于中国共产党的人物。

And so he's a figure who is very much an absolute servant of the Chinese Communist Party.

人们常说，他唯一表现出的情感，也是他最深层的爱，是献给革命的，而不是他的家人。

He's often said that the only emotion he ever showed, the only real love he showed at the most deep level was for the revolution, not for his family.

但与此同时，他又是一个愿意尝试、愿意务实的人，这一点与毛泽东大不相同，因此他是一个极其复杂的人物。

But at the same time, someone willing to experiment, willing to be pragmatic in a way that Mao really wasn't in quite the same sort of way, so a deeply enigmatic character.

但是，拉纳，假设毛泽东去世后，即使你并不个人谴责毛泽东，也确实为实验提供了空间，因为你可以把那些被清洗的人归咎为类似昏君身边的奸臣。

But Rana, presumably, the death of Mao, even if you're not condemning Mao personally, does offer scope for experimentation because you can blame the people who've been purged and cast them as the equivalent of the king's evil advisers.

因此，你可以通过宣称‘毛泽东本想这么做’来做出与毛泽东不同的事情。

So it's you you can do things differently to Mao by saying Mao would have wanted to do this.

你知道，是四人帮，不管是谁，阻止了我们这么做。

You know, it was the gang of four whoever whatever who who prevented us from doing it.

完全正确。

Absolutely right.

如果你想想邓在对话开始时由多米尼克朗读的那篇长文，其中有一句话让我印象深刻，那就是‘反对本本主义’。

And if you think about the, long piece from Deng that Dominic read out at the beginning of the conversation, there's one particular phrase in there that struck me as he said it, which is the phrase oppose book worship.

这实际上是毛泽东最著名文章之一的直译，字面意思是‘反对书本主义’。

Now this is a direct translation of one of Mao's most famous essays, literally oppose bookism.

换句话说，就是反对认为你可以从书本中学到所有你需要知道的东西这种观点。

So in other words, oppose the idea that you can learn everything you need to know from books.

邓在这方面作为宣传手段非常巧妙，因为他利用了毛泽东最著名的言论之一，因此你根本无法在任何层面上反对这一说法的权威性或来源。

And this is brilliant on Deng Xiaoping's part as a piece of propaganda because what it does is take one of Mao's most famous sayings so you couldn't, you know, in any way stand against the, hierarchy of that, or the origins of that particular statement.

但邓在使用这句话时，赋予了它完全不同的含义。

But Deng is using it in a very different way.

当他说到不能只搞本本主义时，毛泽东几乎意思是，你必须彻底抛弃书本，因为文化大革命显然强调的是实践而非书本知识。

When he says you can't just have book worship, Mao almost meant that, you know, you you had to sort of abandon the idea of books altogether because the Cultural Revolution obviously was about being read rather than being expert.

相反，邓小平的意思是，你必须务实。

Instead, what Deng Xiaoping means is that, actually, you have to be pragmatic.

你不能只是读马克思和列宁的著作，就以为能从中了解一切。

You can't just read, for instance, books of Marxism and Leninism and expect you will know everything that comes from those.

相反，也许你需要书籍，但这些书必须是关于科学、技术和外语的。

Instead, maybe you need books, but they have to be books about science, technology, foreign languages.

或者经济学。

Or economics.

或者经济学。

Or economics.

没错。

Absolutely.

这就是他如何不断借用毛泽东的言论，将其导向一种截然不同的共产主义——而这种共产主义当然与他本人紧密相关。

And that is the way in which he could constantly take Mao's sayings and turn them towards a very different sort of communism that he would, of course, be associated with.

他如何从被边缘化、刚刚再次被清洗的状态，战胜华国锋并成为最高领导人？

How does he go from being on the fringes, having just been purged yet again, to overcoming Hua and becoming the paramount leader?

所以，我的意思是，毛泽东去世和我在开头提到的那场演讲之间只隔了两年，也就是1978年。

So, I mean, there's only two years between Mao's death and that speech that I read out at the beginning, is 1978.

那么，这个一直充当仆人的人，是如何变成主人的呢？

So how does this person who's always been a servant become the master?

从1975年到1977年，你见证了全球政治或现代历史上最惊人的逆转之一——邓小平从一个被政治敌人、四人帮、江青、张春桥和其他三人打入中国偏远乡村的人，转变为实际上统治全中国的人。

Between 1975 and 1977, you see one of the most astonishing turnarounds that has ever happened in global politics or or modern history, I would say, and that is Deng Xiaoping moving from being essentially a man who has been cast into well, not out of darkness, but certainly the far reaches of the Chinese countryside by his political enemies, by the gang of four, the radical left, madam Mao, Zhang Qing, and the other three, to someone who essentially is the ruler of all China.

而这背后，实际上源于临时领导人华国锋与邓小平广泛人脉之间的一种奇特动态，当然，华国锋自己并不认为自己是临时领导人，但他很快就成了这样。

And, essentially, it comes from a strange sort of dynamic that happens between the interim leader, Hua Guofeng, who, of course, didn't think of himself as the interim leader, but rapidly became so, and Deng Xiaoping's wider connections.

因为，本质上，华国锋做了邓小平和领导层其他温和派希望他做的事——清除四人帮中最激进的‘文化大革命’分子。

Because, essentially, Hua Wofeng did what Deng and the other moderates in the leadership needed him to do, which was to get rid of the most radical elements, the cultural evolution elements of the gang of four.

但随后，邓小平开始利用他在中共党内极其深厚的人脉网络，逐步将华国锋排挤出权力中心。

But then Deng started to use his very, very deep web of connection within the Chinese Communist Party to actually start to ease Hua out of office.

军队是邓小平拥有的人脉之一，但只是其中之一。

The army was one of the points of connection that Deng had, but it was just one.

请记住，我之前曾简要提到过，邓小平在1946年至1949年的内战中实际上是一位杰出的军事指挥官，这为他赢得了威望。

So remember I said briefly before that Deng Xiaoping was actually a brilliant military commander in, the civil war of nineteen forty six to to forty nine, and that gave him credibility.

这样的人，我们在自己的社会中其实也很熟悉。

Someone who was actually we know from our own societies.

当一个人真正拥有战略和战斗的丰富经验，并且曾在前线冒着生命危险时，军队会认真对待他。

When someone has actually had deep and important experience in strategy and combat and has actually risked their own lives on the front line, they are taken seriously by the armed forces.

邓小平去见那些军方领导人，对他们说：看。

And Deng Xiaoping going to those military leaders and saying, look.

实际上，我认为我们需要向前走了，这句话在施压像华国锋这样缺乏类似背景的人时非常有力。

Actually, I think we need to move on was very powerful in terms of being able to pressure someone like Hua Wofeng, who didn't quite come from that sort of background.

此外，中国共产党有很多方面，但纵观其整个百年历史，你必须把它看作一个网络。

In addition, I mean, the Chinese Communist Party is many things, but I think over the course of its entire, you know, century of existence, you have to think of it as a network.

从这个意义上说，它和英国政界人士上牛津大学没什么不同。

In that sense, it's no different from, oh, I don't know, British politicians going to Oxford, let's say.

你知道吗？

You know?

换句话说，这是一套超越纸面文字的共同认知和文化习俗。

In other words, a set of understandings, sort of anthropology that goes beyond just what's on a piece of paper.

在这种情况下，当然有很多人是中国共产党党员，数以亿计、数以千万计。

And in this case, of course, there are many people who are members of the Chinese Communist Party, billions and millions of them, really.

但只有极少数像邓小平这样的人，长期与苏联保持联系，与那些曾在日本或国民党的空袭中瑟瑟发抖的同志并肩作战。

But only very few like Deng Xiaoping had had the long standing connections with the Soviet Union, with other comrades who had shivered, you know, in in being sort of air raided by the Japanese or by the the nationalists.

换句话说，他们经历了被塑造为革命者的社会化过程。

In other words, have the kind of experience of being socialized into what it meant to be a revolutionary.

这种经历在1975年、1976年、1977年邓小平试图再次登上权力顶峰时，成为了一套极其有力的杠杆。

And that proved to be a very powerful set of levers to pull in nineteen seventy five, seventy six, seventy seven when Deng was looking to rise to the top again.

本质上，当时发生的是：华国锋因为毛泽东亲自提拔而登上最高领导岗位，但毛泽东一去世，他就发现邓小平的人马已经遍布他周围。

Essentially, what happened was that Hua Guofeng, having got to the top leadership because Mao had tapped him on the shoulder, once Mao had died, found that actually Deng Xiaoping's people were all around him.

他被一群并不站在他这边的人包围着。

He was surrounded by people who weren't on his side.

在某种程度上，他非常明智地做出了选择——与我们能举出的其他一些最高领导人不同，他决定隐忍退让才是上策。

And in some ways, very wisely, unlike some other top leaders we could name, he decided that discretion would be a better part of valor.

他本质上退居二线，虽然并非完全心甘情愿，但过程相当平稳。

He essentially stepped back, not entirely willingly, but fairly peacefully.

他没有试图发动政变反扑。

He didn't try and launch a counter coup.

事实上，这得到了回报，因为邓小平——这再次表明政治至少在一段时间内将发生转变——并没有杀他，没有清洗他，没有逮捕他，也没有把他送到农村去，而是给了他一份安稳的工作。

And, actually, it paid off because Deng Xiaoping, and, again, it was a sign of how politics were gonna change at least for a while, didn't kill him, didn't purge him, didn't arrest him, didn't send him out to the countryside, gave him a nice sort of a secure job.

事实上，一直到21世纪初，他都还健在。

And, actually, all the way into the early two thousands, he was alive and well.

他经常去政治局，坐在后排打个盹，被允许平静地退休，这在过去五十年里，中国共产党领导人从未真正允许过这样的事情发生。

He used to come to the Politburo, basically sit at the back and have a of a nap, and he was allowed to go into a gentle retirement, which is not something that Chinese Communist leaders had really allowed to happen during the previous fifty years.

因此，这也表明了邓小平的立场：他在夺取权力时会毫不留情，但只要对方遵守规则，他不会对权力的牺牲者赶尽杀绝。

So it was also a sign on Deng Xiaoping's part that he would be ruthless about getting power, but he would not be ruthless with the victims of his power as long as they played the game.

好的。

Okay.

这太棒了，拉娜。

Well, that's brilliant, Rana.

所以邓小平现在实际上是中国的统治者。

So Deng is now essentially the ruler of China.

在后半段，我们将看到他如何运用自己的权力。

And in the second half, we will see what he does with his power.

也许在他余下的历史中，第一次出现了‘啪！’

And maybe for the first time on the rest of his history, Wham!

这一时刻将登场。

Will feature.

我们几分钟后回来。

So we'll be back in a few minutes.

你好。

Hello.

欢迎回到《历史其余部分》。

Welcome back to The Rest is History.

我们正在探讨中国的开放，中国从毛泽东时代恢复的过程，特别是邓小平——这位极具决断力的人物。在上半部分，我们的嘉宾拉纳·米特描述了他如何实际上成为中国的统治者。

We are looking at the opening of China, the recovery of China from the the time of Mao, we are looking at Deng Xiaoping in particular, this incredibly decisive figure who in the first half, our guest, Rana Mitter, described how he effectively became the ruler of China.

拉纳，邓小平如何运用他所积累的权力呢？

And, Rana, what does Deng do with this power that he has accrued?

汤姆，用最简单的话来说。

Put it as most simple, Tom.

邓小平运用了自1977年、1978年起逐渐获得的权力，进行了可能是人类历史上规模最大的一次经济实验——涉及全球四分之一的人口，也就是中国人口，将一个社会主义计划经济体制，转变为一种将社会主义国家的威权式自上而下政治体制与极其自由的市场经济实验相结合的国家。

Deng Xiaoping used the power that took him to become China's paramount leader, really essentially from 1977, '78 onwards, to undertake the biggest economic experiment that I think has ever been taken in history, essentially with a quarter of the population of the globe, that's the population of China, of course, to essentially turn it from being a socialist command economy to becoming a country that combined the authoritarian top down politics of a socialist country with a remarkable experiment in actually very free market capitalism.

而事实证明，由于当时他们根本无法预知结果，这一实验引发了人类历史上最庞大的经济繁荣之一，并使中国走上了今天的发展道路：成为世界第二大经济体，并有可能在未来十年左右成为世界第一大经济体。

And in doing that, as it turned out, because, of course, it's an experiment they couldn't have known at the time, they launched one of the biggest economic booms that has ever been seen in history and set China on the path of what it is today, the world's second biggest economy, with at least some chance potentially of becoming the biggest in the world, in the next ten years or so.

因此，邓小平为中国的未来发展奠定了这条道路。

So that was really the path that Deng Xiaoping set China on.

我们之前做过一期关于戈尔巴乔夫的播客，当时我们谈到戈尔巴乔夫深受列宁的影响，认为必须回归革命的原始原则。

We did a podcast about Mikhail Gorbachev, and we were talking in that about how much Gorbachev was influenced by Lenin and his belief that, you know, you had to get back to the original principles of the revolution.

你知道的，他床头放着大量列宁的著作，诸如此类。

You know, he had volumes of Lenin by his bedside, all this kind of thing.

邓小平是否也在做同样的事情？

How much is Deng doing the same thing?

因为显然，他和列宁的新经济政策之间存在一些相似之处，或者至少是表面上的相似。

Because obviously, there's there's some similarities with Lenin's new economic policy or perceived similarities.

他究竟在多大程度上试图回归他所认为的、没有被几十年腐败、内斗和派系斗争玷污的原始共产主义精神？

How much is he trying to get back to what he sees as an original sort of authentic spirit of true communism without the corruption and the feuding and the factionalism of the intervening decades.

我认为，邓小平在这一时期正同时努力做两件事。

Deng Xiaoping, I think, is trying to do two things simultaneously during this period.

一是确保中国共产党的绝对统治不受到任何挑战。

One is to make sure that the absolute rule of the Chinese Communist Party is not in any way challenged.

因此，任何认为他试图将中国推向德国、日本或类似国家那种自由多元民主体制的说法都是不成立的。

So any idea that he was trying to move China towards a more liberal pluralist democratic system in the sense that you get in, Germany or Japan or somewhere like that, is not the case.

但我觉得，他在经济理念上要务实得多。

But I think that he was much, much more pragmatic when it came to the idea of what economics might mean.

首先，他一直非常坦率——至少在那些被记录下来并传到我们这里的对话中——他本人从不声称自己是经济专家。

And first of he was always very frank, at least in the conversations that have been transcribed that have come to us, that he himself did not claim to be an economic expert.

他知道，这件事要交给真正懂行的人去做。

You know, he left it to others who knew what was going on.

但我觉得，通过那些被邀请来讨论经济问题的人的多样性，你实际上可以看到影响邓小平和当时其他最高领导人的经济思想范围。

But I think, actually, you can see the range of economic thinking that influenced Deng and the other top leaders during this period by the range of people who were invited to come and talk about it.

关于这一点最好的资料是朱利安·德·维茨所著的精彩著作《不太可能的伙伴》，他是一位历史学家，研究了邓小平及其同僚如查尔斯·杨所尝试的不同经济模式。

And the best source for this is the fantastic book Unlikely Partners by Julian De Wirtz, who is a historian who has looked at the different economic models that Deng and also his fellow polypore members such as Charles Young experimented with.

所以，是的，他们确实深入研究了社会主义经济可能意味着什么，但他们也邀请了米尔顿·弗里德曼访问中国。

So, yes, they did look a great deal at what socialist economics might mean, but they invited Milton Friedman to visit China.

事实上，我必须说，他对中国共产党党校所讲的内容，在他们看来太过离经叛道，以至于他们甚至前往他的酒店房间，围堵他和罗斯·弗里德曼，并给他们上了一课，讲解社会主义经济及其含义。

And, actually, I have to say that what he said to the party school, the Communist Party School, was so outrageous from their point of view that they actually marched to his hotel room and besieged him and Rose Friedman there and kind of read them a lecture on socialist economics and what it what it meant.

此外，像亚历克·凯恩克罗斯这样的社会民主人士也被邀请了。

Also, social democratic figures like Alec Cairncross were were invited as well.

但可能最具影响力、或至少是最具影响力的人物之一，是一些如今已被遗忘的人，他们致力于改革东欧的共产主义经济，比如来自匈牙利的扬努什·克罗奈。

But probably the most influential figure, or at least amongst the most influential figures, were the ones who are a bit forgotten now, who were the people who were trying to reform Eastern European communist economics, people like Janusz Kronay from Hungary.

你或许记得冷战后期有一个词叫‘古拉什共产主义’，它强调将市场经济的某些元素与持续的共产主义权威相结合。

You might remember there was a phrase in the late cold war, goulash communism, which was very much about trying to combine aspects of market economics with a continued communist authority.

因为当然，在那个时期，人们还没有意识到1989年将意味着柏林墙的倒塌和整个体系的彻底崩溃。

Because, of course, at that point, people still didn't realize that 1989 would mean the fall of the Berlin Wall and the complete destruction of that system.

因此，别忘了，在冷战后期，中国人所探索的是一种可以同时观察美国——一个相当资本主义、弱肉强食的国家，以及苏联——他们清楚地知道，即使戈尔巴乔夫试图振兴它，苏联也在以各种方式衰败，而他们自己则在尝试一条中间道路，即东欧式的改革型共产主义。

So the Chinese, don't forget, in the late Cold War, were playing with a system where they could look at America, fairly capitalist and red in tooth and claw, a Soviet Union, which they knew perfectly well, seemed to be decaying in all sorts of ways even while Gorbachev was trying to revive it, and that sort of middle way, which for them was a sort of Eastern European reformist communism.

我认为，这就是邓小平和他身边的人试图权衡和平衡的一系列混合模式。

And that, I think, is the set of mixtures that Deng Xiaoping and those around him were trying to juggle and balance.

汤姆在节目一开始就说，我们在探究这种模式的根源，看看它在多大程度上植根于中国深厚的历史。

Tom said right at the beginning of the show, you know, we're looking at how much where this comes from, how much it's rooted in Chinese deep history.

邓小平是否意识到自己是共产主义之前传统的继承者？首先，他是否仍然完全被困在共产主义的思维模式中，认为革命就是从零开始？

Is Deng conscious of being the heir to a pre communist past, first of all, or is he still completely trapped by the communist way of thinking, you know, that the revolution was kind of year zero as it were?

其次，他们是否意识到中国是一个巨大的、未被开发的潜力宝库？这显然与匈牙利、波兰等国家的情况完全不同，即使那些国家也相当成功。

And secondly, how much are they conscious of China being this vast reservoir of untapped potential, which is obviously not the case, you know, even when you're looking at a country that turns out to be reasonably successful like Hungary or Poland or somewhere in China is a completely different order.

那么，他对此有多少意识呢？

So how much is he conscious of that?

他对此非常清醒，因为即使在文化大革命的最后几年，我们也知道当时正在进行经济实验，包括新市场和新的劳动力激励机制。

He's very conscious of it because one of the things that we know was happening even in the last years of the Cultural Revolution was economic experimentation with new markets, but also new incentives for the labor force.

事实上，对于中国来说，这种结合非常有效：一方面调整国家对市场活动的管控范围，明确哪些领域仍需由国家计划经济主导；另一方面，给予农民、工人和小型企业更多激励，以催生一种新的、由私营部门驱动的经济形态。

And there is a combination here, as it turns out for China, very helpful one, of changes in state direction in terms of what the markets are allowed to do and what has to be handed over under the state command economy, and also the incentives given to peasants, to workers, to small enterprises in terms of being able to create a new sort of private sector driven economy as well.

在这一过程中，他和领导层其他成员都非常清楚，中国庞大的劳动力规模是这一进程中的关键因素。

And in doing that, he and the other members of the leadership are very much aware that the size of China's labor force is immensely important as part of that.

值得注意的是，其中一个重要但一直被低估的元素，就是女工的重要性。

It's worth noting that one of the elements of that, which again has slightly been underplayed, is, of course, the importance of women workers.

因为如果你想到中国在那段时期经济实验——有时我们称之为经济奇迹——最常联想到的画面，就是那些后来成为‘世界工厂’的工厂建设，也就是‘中国制造’现象。当你看七十年代和八十年代这些工厂里工作的人员照片时，经常看到的是十几岁末到二十岁出头的年轻女性。

Because if you think about one of the images that perhaps you associate more than anything else with China's economic experimentation during that period, what sometimes we call the the economic miracle, the building of factories which then become a workshop to the world, you know, the made in China phenomenon, When you look at pictures of who's working in those factories in the seventies and eighties, it's very frequently young women in their late teens, early twenties.

她们来自农村。

They're coming out from the countryside.

她们是那支庞大、虽非完全未开发但尚未充分释放的劳动力的一部分，从中找到了新的机会。

They are part of that vast, you know, not exactly untapped, but undertapped workforce that finds new opportunities.

一方面，她们所面临的条件极其、极其剥削性。

On the one hand, the conditions that they find are deeply, deeply exploitative.

即使到今天，中国工厂也并不总是舒适的工作场所，有时甚至非常危险。

Even today, Chinese factories are not always particularly pleasant places to work and can be very dangerous.

但另一方面，她们也获得了真正靠自己挣钱、成为独立劳动力群体的新机遇。

But they also provide a new phenomenon of women who are able to actually earn in their own right, become part of the labor force in their own right.

你可以从中看到如今在中国非常显著的一种现象的起源，即一支独特的女性劳动力队伍。

And you can see the origins there of something which actually is now very noticeable in China, which is a distinct female labor force.

而这当然也是更广泛的共产主义和社会主义传统的一部分。

And that, of course, has also been part of that wider communist and socialist tradition.

尽管这一理念在实践中往往流于形式多于真正落实，但很明显，妇女的解放——无论是在劳动力市场还是其他任何领域——始终是中国共产党的议程之一。

Although it's honored as much in the breach as in the observance, it's clear that the emancipation of women, which means in the labor market as much as anywhere else, was always part of the Chinese Communist agenda.

你可以说，当时被引入工厂的女性，正是这一共产主义遗产在当时实际付诸实施的一个方面。

And you could argue that the women being brought into the factories at that time were one aspect of that Communist legacy which was being put into actual operation at that time.

拉娜，你提到中国如何成为世界的工厂。

Rana, you you mentioned how China becomes the workshop of the world.

要成为世界的工厂，你必须向世界开放，而六十年代文化大革命时期的中国显然并未如此。

To be the workshop of the world, you have to be open to the world, which of course, on in the sixties, on the Cultural Revolution, China absolutely hadn't been.

我认为，这一开放过程的典型画面是丹前往美国、参加牛仔竞技并戴着牛仔帽。

I guess the paradigmatic image of that process of opening up is Dan going to America, going to a rodeo and wearing a Stetson.

但我想问一下，我是不是正确地认为，这一过程中的关键人物之一，我提到了威猛乐队？

But am I right that actually one of the kind of the key figures in this process, I mentioned Wham!

这位就是邀请威猛乐队的人。

This is the man who invites Wham!