38. 共产主义

一个幽灵，共产主义的幽灵，在欧洲游荡。

A spectre is haunting Europe, a spectre of communism.

旧欧洲的一切势力都为驱除这个幽灵而结成了神圣同盟。

All the powers of old Europe have entered into a holy alliance to exorcise this specter.

这是1848年由卡尔·马克思和弗里德里希·恩格斯撰写的《共产党宣言》的开篇。

So begins the communist manifesto, written in 1848 by Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels.

欢迎来到《历史其余部分》，我是多米尼克·桑德布鲁克，一位著名的马克思主义者，以及我的搭档、摇摆不定的布里克斯顿自由派托姆·霍兰德。

Welcome to The Rest is History with me, Dominic Sandbrook, well known Marxist, and my sidekick, wishy washy Brixton centrist liberal Tom Holland.

你好，同志。

Hello, comrade.

你好，同志。

Hello, comrade.

今天，我们要讨论共产主义——这一在19世纪末和20世纪大部分时间主导了大量讨论的伟大政治理论。

So today, we're talking about communism, the great political theory that dominated so much conversation in the late nineteenth and much of the twentieth centuries.

实际上，回过头看，托姆，当你知道，当我们还是孩子的时候，共产主义和资本主义似乎正在为争夺数百万人民的心灵与思想而展开真正的竞争。

And, actually, looking back, Tom, when you you know, when we were kids, communism and capitalism are locked in this genuine competition, so it seemed, for the hearts and minds of millions of people.

我的意思是，当你纵观世界地图时，我还记得童年时看到的那些地图。

I mean, when you survey the world, the map, I can remember those maps from my kind of childhood.

苏联及其所有卫星国，比如捷克斯洛伐克、南斯拉夫、波兰、匈牙利、东德等等。

The Soviet Union and all its satellite states, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Poland, Hungary, East Germany, and so on.

在非洲，你有安哥拉、埃塞俄比亚、莫桑比克这样的地方。

You had in Africa, you had places like Angola, Ethiopia, Mozambique.

你还有阿富汗、蒙古，当然还有中华人民共和国，它至今在技术上仍是共产主义国家，古巴、越南和老挝也是如此，但此后共产主义的影响力已大幅衰退。

You had Afghanistan, Mongolia, of course, the People's Republic Of China, which is still technically communist as are Cuba, Vietnam, and Laos, but there's been a huge falling off since then.

那么，你认为共产主义已经消失，还是依然存在？

So do you think communism is is gone, or is it still with us?

我觉得这是一个非常有力量的理念，而你大概不会惊讶于我为什么认为它如此有力量。

Think it's such a potent idea, and it won't surprise you to know why I think it's a potent idea.

我迫不及待想听你说。

I can't wait for this.

我觉得它有着非常深远的根源，也许我们稍后会谈到这一点。

I I think it has very, very deep roots, and maybe we'll we'll come to that.

我认为，共产主义所体现的指导性理想——即全人类都能获得解放，全人类都能共享平等的正义——具有明显的吸引力。

And I think that the the the guiding kind of ideal that it embodies, that that all of humanity can be liberated and that that all of humanity can share in an equal justice, is one that has an obvious appeal.

我想，当我们谈论共产主义时，我们通常指的是马克思著作中所描述的具体形式，以及它在列宁和毛泽东时期的发展，还有你所说的二十世纪意识形态战争中的演变。

And I guess that when we talk about communism, we tend to mean the the specific form that it has has taken in the writings of Marx and then the way that it's evolved with Lenin and with Mao and through the the the ideological war of the twentieth century, as you said.

但我确实绝对认为，你知道，中国，这个可能成为地球上最强大国家的国家，仍然是一个共产主义国家。

But I I do absolutely think that, I mean, it's you know, China, potentially the greatest power on the face of the planet, remains a communist state.

因此，说共产主义已经像尼尼微和推罗一样消亡了，仅仅从政治层面来看，简直是荒谬的。

So it's ridiculous to say that, you know, communism has gone the way of Nineveh and Tyre simply purely on the political level.

但我认为，它在文化层面也持续产生着巨大的影响。

But I think it also has continues to have a huge influence on on the cultural level.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我认为，目前最具影响力的两位共产主义思想家可能是意大利人安东尼奥·葛兰西，他在20世纪30年代提出，文化本质上是实现社会正义的途径。

So I would say that that probably the the the two most influential communist thinkers at the moment would be Antonia Grampski, Italian in the writing in the thirties, who argued that that essentially kind of culture is the way for social justice to be established.

这一观点在人们理解文化运作方式的方方面面都产生了巨大影响。

And that's been hugely influential in all kinds of ways that that that that people understand the operation of culture.

是的

Yeah.

我想说的是弗朗茨·法农，这位伟大的马提尼克法语作家，他从马克思主义的角度阐释了世界政治，特别强调了殖民地社会和全球南方如何反抗他所描述的压迫性帝国统治。

And I'd say Frans Fanon, who the the the great Martinique Francophone writer who has essentially kind of articulated a Marxist understanding of world politics with an emphasis on how colonized societies and the global South can fight back against what he casts as oppressive imperial domination.

我认为这两位思想家都产生了巨大影响，这种影响是巨大的。

And I would say that that both of those thinkers have a have a and that's, you know, colossal influence.

我的意思是，我甚至可以说，某种程度上，如今马克思主义在美国的影响力可能比在中国还要大。

I mean I mean, I'd go so far as to say that actually, in a way, you could say that Marxism is more influential at the moment in The United States than it is in China.

谈谈看。

Discuss.

这很有趣。

That's interesting.

这是一个有趣的论点。

That's an interesting argument.

但它们不都是从我们通常与马克思主义联系在一起的共产主义主干中衍生出来的分支吗？

But they're both offshoots, aren't they, from the sort of the main trunk of communism, which we associate with Marxism.

在那之前，早就有关于共产主义社会的想法。

So there had been ideas about a communist society before.

所以托马斯·莫尔在十六世纪初的著作《乌托邦》中，描绘了一个理想化的后封建社会，人们共同拥有财产；还有英国内战时期的掘地派。

So Thomas More in his book, Utopia, at the beginning of the the turn of the sixteenth century, has this vision of a society where people share property in an idealized sort of post feudal world and the diggers in the English civil war.

但我的意思是，这些也算是某种形式的共产主义。

Well But, I mean, these are communist of a kind.

你可以说它们是前马克思主义的思想。

They're kind of proto Marxist ideas, you could argue.

你能这么说吗？

Can you?

我可以引用我的书吗？

Can I can I make book?

你想引用你的书吗？

Do you wanna bring in your book?

你想谈谈你的观点吗？

Do wanna do you wanna do your thing?

我的意思是，大家都在等这件事。

I mean, everybody's waiting for this.

我不会提到我的书，

I'm not gonna mention my book,

但我会说，共产主义社会的原型是早期的教会。

but I would say that the the arc the the prototype of a communist society is the early church.

我故意为难你，汤姆，其实没什么好理由，因为我觉得你在这个问题上非常有说服力。

I'm owning I'm giving you a hard time, Tom, for no very good reason because I actually find you very convincing on this.

我真的觉得你抓住了关键，所以继续说吧。

I I genuinely think you're onto something, so go for it.

所以我认为，早期教会的描述——《使徒行传》中提到使徒们变卖财产和财物，按各人的需要分给每个人——就是原型。

So I think the prototype is the description of the early church in the Acts of the Apostles, where it says that the apostles selling their possessions and goods gave to to anyone as he had need.

这里明显呼应了马克思那句著名的格言：各尽所能，按需分配。

And there's an obvious echo there of of Marx's famous dictum from each according to his ability to each according to his needs.

这本质上对基督徒提出了一个挑战：这是否是一个可实现的理想？

And essentially, that that posed a kind of challenge to Christians, which is is is this a kind of realizable ideal?

是的。

Yeah.

而且很难过分强调，在罗马世界中，富人和有权势者自认为在道德上优于穷人。

And it's hard to overemphasize, you know, the degree to which in the Roman world, the rich and the powerful assume themselves to be morally superior to those who are poor.

基督教对这一假设构成了深刻的挑战。

And Christianity represents a really profound challenge to that assumption.

到了五世纪，你开始看到一种由基督教教义驱动的阶级斗争观念。

And in the fifth century, you start to get the the notion of a a kind of class war that is motivated by Christian doctrine.

实际上，有一位英国思想家名叫佩拉吉乌斯，他认为人类可以通过自身努力从罪中得救。

And there's a there's a actually British thinker called Pelagius who argues that humans can redeem themselves from sin through their own efforts.

这体现为一种特别激进的佩拉吉乌斯主义思想，即整个历史本质上是富人对穷人的压迫战争。

And this manifests itself in a kind of particularly radical Pelagian thought with the idea that the whole of history is an expression basically of the war of the rich on the poor.

因此，如果消灭了富人，人间就会成为天堂。

And that, therefore, if you get rid of the rich, then you will have paradise on earth.

是的。

Yeah.

这遭到了教会的伟大教父奥古斯丁的强烈反对，他认为人类已经堕落。

And this gets opposed by particularly Augustine, the the the great father of the church, who says that humanity has fallen.

我们不可能在地球上实现天堂。

We can't possibly realize heaven on earth.

因此，所能期望的最好结果就是富人继续施舍给穷人。

And so the best that can be hoped for is that the rich will continue to give to the poor.

我认为本质上，你可以说，在五世纪的罗马帝国，共产主义与社会民主主义已经对立起来。

And I think that in essence, I mean, you could say that there you have communism against social democracy set up in in in the fifth century Roman empire.

这基本上就是卡尔·马克思和卡德伯里家族——那些慈善家之间的对立。

It's basically Karl Marx and and and the Cadbury's family, the sort of philanthropists of Yes.

圣奥古斯丁就是一个巧克力大亨。

Saint Augustine is a is a is a chocolate magnate.

本质上是这样。

Essentially.

奥古斯丁的影响显然是巨大的，他对教会产生了深远影响。

And and Augustine Augustine's influence is obviously he's the huge influence on the church.

佩拉吉乌斯被斥为异端。

Pelagius gets branded a heretic.

因此，在教会的历史进程中，对于任何暗示基督教教义——特别是福音书中‘富人有祸了’、‘末后的将要在前，之前的将要在后’——应当付诸社会实践的说法，都存在着极大的焦虑。

And so over the course of the church, his history, there's an extreme anxiety about any suggestion that Christian teaching, particularly in the gospels, you know, woe to the rich, the the the last should be first, and the first will be last.

基督的这些教导应当被落实到社会实践中。

These sayings of Christ should be should be put into social practice.

但你确实是从根本上开始的，也就是说，宗教改革在其激进的边缘，正是试图将这一点付诸实践。

But you do start by by the I mean, essentially, the reformation at its radical fringes is an attempt to put that into practice.

当然，你也有加尔文主义者认为，如果你富有且成功，这表明上帝在眷顾你，是的。

Although, of course, you have you have Calvinists who think, if you're rich and successful, that shows that God is smiling on you and Yes.

实际上，拥有财富，成为一个富有的商人之类的人，是上帝恩宠的标志。

That that actually being wealth being a wealthy sort of merchant or something is a sign of God's favor.

对吧？

Right?

当然。

Absolutely.

但在最激进的边缘，甚至在宗教改革之前，比如胡斯派叛乱时期，你就看到了一种惊人的共产主义尝试——我认为这是欧洲历史上首次试图建立共产主义社会，地点叫塔博尔，这个名字源自《新约》中的一座山。

But but on the the very, very radical fringes, so be even before the reformation with the Hussite rebellion, you have, this amazing communist I think it's the first attempt to to realize a communist society in European history at a place called Tabor, which is named after a a mountain in in in in in the New Testament.

骑士和乞丐都加入进来，开始挖掘这座巨大的城市，而他们的背景是：上帝即将审判世界，天堂将在地球上建立。

And knights and beggars all join up and start digging this huge great city, and they're doing it against the backdrop that God is going to judge the world and that paradise will be established on the earth.

我的意思是，你可以看到这种试图建立普遍平等的理念，以及新耶路撒冷将在地球上建成的想法。

I mean, and you can see that that idea of trying to to to build a kind of a universal equality and that the new Jerusalem will be built on earth.

你知道，你能感受到这种等待正在发生。

You know, you can see that that that's that's kind of waiting for it.

接着，你在明斯特看到了再洗礼派，他们也试图做同样的事情。

Then you've got about the the Anabaptists in Munster who try to do the same.

在英国革命中还有掘地派，这些人物都对马克思产生了影响。

You've got the the diggers in the the English revolution, and all these figures are influential on Marx.

所以，掘地派现在所处的地方，如今成了一个讽刺性的封闭式社区，对吧？

So the diggers are now in a what's now what's now a a gated community, ironically, isn't it?

韦布里奇那种股票经纪人

Waybridge sort of stockbroker

没错。

That's right.

股票经纪人带。

Stockbroker belt.

是的。

Yes.

让我们快进到十九世纪，看看现在人们所认为的共产主义的兴起。

So let's fast forward a bit to the nineteenth century and the emergence of what people now think of as as communism.

现在我认为，很多所谓的马克思主义者如果听到你这么说会非常不高兴。

And now I would argue that that's and and a lot of sort of Karkan communists get very offended if you and very cross if you say this.

但我认为，它显然是一种政治宗教，几乎不值得争论。

But I would say it's it's so obviously a kind of political religion that it's barely worth arguing about.

我的意思是，它后来甚至有了偶像、旗帜、圣典、先知等等。

I mean, it even later on has icons and banners and sacred texts and and prophets and all the rest of it.

但马克思有趣的地方在于，他并不是出身于典型的基督教家庭，虽然他家是改信基督教的，但他实际上有犹太血统，对吧？

But the interesting thing about Marx is that Marx is not from a I mean, he he's from a converted Christian background, but he's actually Jewish heritage, isn't it?

但你认为马克思主义是基本的吗？我的意思是，你显然这么认为，因为你觉得一切都是基督教的，但你为什么这么说呢？

But do you think Marxism is basic I mean, you obviously, you do because you think everything is Christian, but you're you're kinda why do

你这么认为吗？

you think?

我们已经同意法西斯主义不是宗教。

We we agreed that fascism wasn't.

还有哪些对马克思主义本质上是宗教持怀疑态度的听众呢？

Any remaining skeptical listeners that Marxism is basically religious?

嗯，我认为，你知道，你在节目开头引用的那句名言——一个幽灵在欧洲游荡。

Well, I I think that I you know, the thing the famous phrase that you read out at the the top of the show, a specter is haunting Europe.

旧欧洲的各种势力已经进入圣地，来驱除这个幽灵。

The powers of old Europe have entered into Holy Lands to exercise this specter.

我的意思是，从最基础的层面看，马克思有点像一位哥特式作家。

I mean, on the most basic level, Marx has I mean, he's he's kind of like a gothic writer.

他被吸血鬼和狼人所困扰，《资本论》的语言中处处渗透着这种意象。

He's haunted by vampires and werewolves, and the language of Das Kapital is is kind of shot through with the idea

那种血淋淋的超自然现象、寄生虫之类的东西。

that blood supercurs and parasites and all that sort of stuff.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yes.

但我认为，在更广泛的层面上，马克思默认了穷人被富人和权贵压迫是错误的。

But I think on the broader level, Marx takes for granted that the oppression of the poor by the rich and the powerful is wrong.

但他不想说这是一种形而上的立场，因为那样会立刻让他陷入神学维度，进入类似基督教思想的领域。

But he doesn't want to say that this is a metaphysical position because that would immediately kind of lead him wandering into theological dimensions, into the into the dimension of kind of the, you know, Christian thought.

所以他声称这一切完全是科学的。

So he he he claims that it's all entirely scientific.

嗯，那正是关键术语，不是吗？

Well, that's the key word, isn't it?

科学性在于

The scientific nature of

而且是唯物主义的。

And materialist.

是历史主义者。

A historicist.

所以他坐在大英图书馆里，计算着数据，制作了大量图表和表格， supposedly 证明历史本质上是一场阶级斗争，并且财富阶层必然会被推翻，最终将建立一个无阶级的乌托邦。

So he sits in in the British Library number crunching the facts and lots of graphs, lots of tables, supposedly proving the inevitable fact that, you know, that all of history is a class warfare and that it is predestined that the wealthy will be overthrown, that there were a classless paradise will be established.

在我看来，马克思主义声称自己是科学的，这本质上是一种俄狄浦斯式的尝试，试图否认其基督教传统。

And it seems to me that, essentially, the whole pretense of Marxism to be scientific is a kind of Oedipal attempt to deny its Christian heritage, I think.

哇。

Wow.

这是个宏大的观点。

That's a big idea.

这是犹太传统。

It's Jewish heritage.

因为有趣的是，马克思的一位祖先是一位名叫利维的拉比，他是16世纪布拉格著名的拉比，据传说，他创造了哥雷姆——一种可怕的自动机械体，一种前弗兰肯斯坦式的怪物，这在某种程度上，惊人地预示了资产阶级与无产阶级之间的关系。

Because it fascinatingly, one of Marx's ancestors was rabbi Leuve, who was a famous rabbi in in sixteenth century Prague, who, according to legend, fashioned the golem, which was a kind of a kind of monstrous automaton, a kind of proto Frankenstein monster, which is, in a way, a kind of sensational pre prefiguring of the relationship of the bourgeoisie to the proletariat.

所以那里充斥着各种奇怪的东西，我认为所谓它是科学的这种说法，简直是个笑话。

So there's there's all kinds of strange stuff swirling around there, and I I think the idea that it's scientific is is one for the the bursary.

我的意思是，你怎么看？

I mean, what do you think?

我觉得你的说法是科学的。

Your remarks I I think it's scientific.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为它在某种意义上是科学的，因为十九世纪的许多理论和思想都被认为是科学的，因为那是一个痴迷于科学的时代。

I think it's scientific in the sense that so many theories and ideas developed in the nineteenth century were were thought to be scientific because it was an age obsessed with science.

所以那是达尔文主义的时代，也是新技术、铁路等等兴起的时代。

So it's the age of Darwinism, and it's the age of, you know, new technology and the railways and all the rest of it.

因此，任何新理论几乎都不可避免地会使用科学语言来表述。

And so any new theory almost by definition is going to be sort of grounded in in in scientific language and whatnot.

而在这个情况下，科学实际上代表了一种意义——马克思主义者经常说，自己站在历史的正确一边。

And and science in this case, it stands in for I mean, Marxists often talk about being on the right side of history.

所以，这种历史必然进步的观点，被视为一种科学规律。

So this idea of the inevitable progress of history, and it's a scientific law.

我的意思是，在这种模式中，科学某种程度上取代了上帝的位置，不是吗？

I mean, science sort of stands in for for god, doesn't it, in this, I think, in this formula.

因此，伟大的德国二十世纪哲学家瓦尔特·本雅明，将马克思主义的历史唯物主义与另一个自动机——土耳其人进行了比较。

So Walter Benjamin, the great German sort of twentieth century philosopher, he compared Marxism's kind of his historical materialism as they called it.

他将它比作一个所谓的机器人——实际上是个骗局，早在十八世纪初或十九世纪初就被创造出来了。

He compared it with the another automaton, the Turk, which was this sort of supposed robot, that was actually a bit of a con, created before it was sort of created the eighteenth, early, nineteenth century or something.

他说，隐藏在所有机械装置伪装之下的，其实是神学，而这正是马克思主义肮脏的小秘密：它本质上是打着科学旗号的神学。

And he sort of said, you know, what's hiding under the the the pretense of all the machinery is actually theology and is this sort of, you know, that's the that's Marxism's dirty little secret that is basically theology posing as as science.

我一直都是这么认为的。

And I've always sort of thought that.

我的意思是，我记得上大学时，遇到一些人，他们才二十岁，却自诩拥有丰富的人生阅历，就会说：‘哦，我是马克思主义者。’

I mean, I can remember when I was at university meeting people who sort of said, you know, at the age of 20 with all their their years of experience of the world, they would sort of say, oh, well, I'm a Marxist.

我经常问他们：‘你怎么知道的？’

And I'd often say, well, how do you know?

你是怎么决定的？

How have you decided?

在我们这个年纪，基本上什么都不知道，还在大量阅读，你怎么能确定这就是解释世界的蓝图？

How at this sort of age where we basically know nothing and we're still reading lots of stuff, how do you know that this is the blueprint that explains the world?

当然，这是一个愚蠢的问题，因为我以为那是一种政治立场，但其实不是。

And, of course, that was a stupid question because I thought it was a political position, but it wasn't.

那是一种宗教立场。

It was a religious position.

我认为，这更多是宗教身份的延续，当然，这并不总是如此。

Sustainment of religious identity, I think, rather than a a sort of well, I mean, that's obviously not always the case.

确实有一些更持怀疑态度的马克思主义者。

There are there are people who are more skeptical Marxists.

但当人们说自己是马克思主义者时，这并不总是经过深思熟虑的认知立场。

But it's not necessarily always when people say they're a Marxist, it's not often it's not always a sort of cognitively carefully developed position.

很多时候，这是一种继承而来的东西。

Often, it's inherited.

所以我不确定你有没有读过大卫·阿罗诺维奇关于在马克思主义氛围中成长的书。

So I don't know if you've read David Aronovich's book about growing up in a Marxist sort of milieu.

我的意思是，战后英国的马克思主义者，当时马克思主义和共产主义都是极小众的东西。

I mean, Marxists in Britain in the postwar years, where Marxism like communism was a tiny thing.

他们有自己的牙医。

They had their own dentists.

他们有自己的朋友圈。

They had their own circles of friends.

他们有自己的报纸。

They had their own newspaper.

他们拥有自己完整的世界观。

They had their entire own view of the world.

那是一个封闭的体系，类似于宗教邪教。

It was a closed system, not unlike a religious cult.

在很多方面，

And in many ways,

我觉得就是这样。

I think that's what it is.

嗯，葛兰西非常推崇天主教会。

Well, Gramsci was a great admirer of the Catholic church.

有趣的是，尤其是在拉丁美洲，但也包括欧洲的天主教国家，罗马天主教与共产主义之间的斗争常常像兄弟之间的战争，因为它们都是封闭的体系。

And it's interesting that across, particularly, Latin America, but but also in, know, Catholic countries in in, in Europe, really, the kind of the battle between Roman Catholicism and communism is often a kind of and it's a war between siblings, and they're both closed systems.

但一旦你接受了它，一切就都说得通了。

But once you once you buy into it, then everything makes sense.

是的。

Yes.

我认为另一个与基督教明显的相似之处在于，人们如何被贴上异端的标签，以及教条和教义如何必须调整以适应变化的环境。

And I and I think also the other the other obvious parallel with with with Christianity is the way in which people get branded heretics and the way in which dogma and doctrine has to be adapted to to fit changing circumstance.

所以，马克思的哲学显然源于十九世纪中期非常独特的社会背景。

So Marx, know, Marx's philosophy is clearly bred of the very distinctive circumstances of of the mid nineteenth century.

因此，1848年在欧洲大陆爆发的革命，最终导致他流亡英国，在那里他和恩格斯——后者基本上在曼彻斯特经营工厂，周末还去猎狐之类。

So the revolutions that are going on in 1848 in Continental Europe, which end up leading to his exile to Britain, where he and Engels, who is basically kind of running factories in Manchester and going fox hunting on the weekend and things.

所以他能从内部看到工业革命如何影响曼彻斯特这样的城镇和城市，是的。

So he has a kind of eye view of the way in which the industrial revolution is impacting towns like Manchester, cities like Manchester Yes.

并且造成了可怕的苦难。

And and inflicting appalling suffering.

你知道，马克思说，先知都得留胡子。

And, you know, Marx says, you know, prophets have to have beards.

他留着一大把胡子。

He has a big beard.

你看，就是这样。

And there you go.

无需更多证据了。

No further proof needed.

但那之后呢

But then what

而且这也非常有趣。

is But also It's it's fascinating.

我的意思是，我认为马克思和恩格斯两人身上有一件奇怪的事，那就是几乎没有人比马克思更充满敬畏地描写资产阶级的成就。

I mean, I think also that that one of the things that that you get from both Marx and Engels, oddly, is almost no one writes more in with a greater sense of awe about the achievements of the bourgeoisie than Marx.

我的意思是，他描述资产阶级文明的成就——它的不安分、它的全球影响力、它的强大——这种描绘令人震惊，堪称对维多利亚时代英国成就的震撼呈现。

I mean, he, you know, he he he the way in which he describes the achievements of bourgeois civilization, its restlessness, its its kind of global reach, its potency, it's it's a stupefying portrayal of the achievements of Victorian Britain.

而且，如果你仔细看，还有一种奇特的感觉，这不仅仅是恩格斯热衷于猎狐。

And there is also a kind of weird sense in which, if you look at you know, it's not just Engels with his his fox hunting.

马克思本人，你知道的，他不是也去海边度假吗？

Marx is kind of you know, I mean, he's going on seaside holidays, isn't he?

我想他的

Think his

怀特岛。

The Isle Of Wight.

他是狂热的粉丝

He's great fan of

我认为是怀特岛。

the Isle Of Wight, I think.

是的。

Yes.

就是这样，因为他生命的最后两周去了文特诺尔度假，那天下了整整十四天的雨。

That was it because he went to Ventnor, didn't he, for his the last fortnight of his life and last holiday, and it rained every day.

就是这样。

And that's it's

变得非常无聊。

come very puterous.

二十世纪五十年代的家庭度假。

Family holiday in the nineteen fifties.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

所以你了解了马克思和恩格斯的具体生活状况。

So you've got the specifics of Marx's circumstances and Engels.

然后，当然，你还得考虑像列宁这样的革命者所处的截然不同的环境。

And then, of course, you've got the very different circumstances of, revolutionaries like Lenin

他们来自一个非常、非常不同的世界。

who come from a very, very different world.

这正是我想转向的话题，因为马克思主义和共产主义最大的讽刺在于，马克思本人正是这么想的。

That's what I wanted to move to because, of course, the great irony with Marxism and with communism is that Marx thought exactly that.

你刚才说的关于他和资产阶级的成就，他欣赏资产阶级成就的一个原因，显然，是被它们所震撼，因为资产阶级的成就中蕴含着自我毁灭的种子。

All you were saying about him and the achievements of the bourgeoisie, he one reason he likes the achievements of the bourgeoisie, obviously, awed by them, is because they have the seeds of their own destruction in them.

所以他认为，资本主义发展得越成熟、越宏伟，它就会崩溃得越快。

So he thinks the more capitalism develops, the more sort of magnificent it is, the more quickly it will crumble.

这就是掘墓人。

It's the gravedigger.

again, that Gothic quality.

Again, that Gothic quality.

这确实是一种非常哥特式的表达，不是吗？

It is a very Gothic, expression, isn't it?

他们是在为自己挖坟墓。

They're sort of digging their own graves.

所以他以为革命会在英国或德国这样的先进工业文明国家发生，你知道的。

So he thinks it's gonna the revolution's gonna happen in somewhere like Britain or Germany, you know, the most advanced industrial civilizations.

但实际上，革命却发生在俄国，而那是他原本认为最可能发动反革命的地方。

And, actually, it happens in Russia, which is the one place that he had thought would be leading the counter revolution.

他一直认为俄国具有巨大的反革命潜力。

He'd sort of seen all this counter revolutionary potential in Russia.

俄国确实有两个工业城市，圣彼得堡和莫斯科，但除此之外，它是一个庞大的农业国家，满是农民。

So Russia does have two industrial cities, Saint Petersburg and Moscow, but otherwise, it's a huge sort of agrarian giant full of peasants.

从很多方面来看，这恰恰是个错误的地方。

It's exactly the wrong place in many words in many ways.

在很多方面，俄国都不适合共产主义生根发芽。

It's the wrong place in many ways for, for communism to to take root.

关键人物是列宁，因为列宁说，实际上，你所需要的不仅仅是历史的进程。

And the key figure here is Lenin because Lenin is the person who says, well, actually, what you need you know, it's not just you don't just need the course of history.

你需要的是一支革命先锋队，一个能够夺取权力、发动政变、强行掌权并推动这一进程的先锋党，不管人们是否喜欢，因为它是在顺应历史潮流。

What you need is a revolutionary vanguard, a vanguard party that will take the levers of power, stage a coup, grab power, and then push this through whether people so basically whether people like it or not because it's acting in the course of history.

而且我认为，从马克思主义付诸实践之初，就必然伴随着暴力和专政，别无他法。

And then and I think right at the beginning of the I mean, right from the outset when Marxism is put into practice, you have basically violence and dictatorship, and you couldn't have it otherwise.

我认为你同时还面临着精英主义的诱惑。

I think also you you you have the offer of elitism.

是的。

So Yeah.

马列主义的精妙之处在于，它本质上为那些极度关注社会正义、渴望全球平等与公正的人提供了吸引力。

The the the genius of Marxist Leninism is that it it it offers you I mean, basically, so the Marxism will appeal to people who who are very concerned with social justice, who who who want equality across the world, who want justice.

列宁所做的，是将这种理想与需要一个控制性精英阶层的观念融合在一起。

What Lenin does is to to fuse that with the sense that you need a a controlling elite.

关于伦敦的共产主义者，我曾经做过一个精彩的广播节目，讲的是白教堂区一家咖喱店楼上那个房间——据我所知，那里曾经举办过共产主义会议。

And on on the theme of of communists in London, I I did a a brilliant radio piece once about this this room above above what's now a curry shop in Whitechapel, where I think for about kind of before we know, there was communist conference going on.

列宁、斯大林、托洛茨基、罗莎·卢森堡、高尔基、季诺维也夫，全都挤在这一间单人小屋里。

You had Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky, Rosa Luxemburg, Gorky, Zinoviev, all kind of staying in this this one bed sit.

我一直觉得这会成为一个超棒的情景喜剧。

I always thought it would make an amazing sitcom.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

情景喜剧。

Sitcom.

太酷了。

Very cool.

拖延。

Stalling.

所以我认为，有趣的是，布尔什维克，我。

And so I think and I think that they would that the the brilliant irony of that is is that that was where the Bolsheviks, I.

呃，多数派的人们就住在那里。

E, the the majoritarians, the the people in the majority were staying.

我认为孟什维克是少数派，他们一定待在更小的房间里。

And I I think the Mensheviks were, you know, the the people in the minority were must have been staying in an even smaller room somewhere.

嗯，我觉得

Well, I think

我的意思是，你提到斯大林很有趣，因为斯大林几乎笼罩着每一次关于共产主义的讨论，毕竟他杀害了数以百万计的人。

I mean, it's interesting you mentioned Stalin because Stalin kinda hangs over every discussion of communism because, you know, Stalin murdered millions upon millions of people.

像斯大林这样的人，让我觉得特别有趣的是，斯大林是个例外吗？马克思主义者现在常常这么声称。

And and the question with someone like Stalin, and what I find so fascinating is is Stalin an aberration, which Marxists will now often claim.

哦，斯大林是个冒牌货。

Oh, Stalin was somehow some impostor.

他是个怪物，不知怎么就掌控了这场实验，结果完全失控了。

He was a monster who'd somehow got his hands on the experiments and it all got out of control.

或者，还有另一种观点，我不知道你有没有读过美国学者史蒂芬·科特金写的那些巨著，他正在系统地研究斯大林的一生。

Or, for example, there's the alternative view, which is I don't know if you read these monstrously big books by Stephen Cotkin, this American scholar who's working his way through Stalin's life.

他说，不是这样的。

And he says, no.

每个人都对斯大林理解错了。

Everyone's got Stalin wrong.

斯大林并不是疯子。

Stalin wasn't a madman.

斯大林甚至未必是个施虐狂，或者我们想象中的那些特质。

Stalin wasn't even necessarily a sadist or, you know, any of these things that we imagine.

他童年并没有受到创伤。

He's not sort of traumatized by his childhood.

他根本不是那些东西。

He's none of those things.

斯大林实际上是一个非常正统的马克思主义者。

Stalin is actually a very good Marxist.

马克思主义者。

Marxist.

他一生都沉浸在马克思主义思想中。

He spent all his life immersed in Marxist ideas.

他写了大量极其枯燥的文章，探讨马克思主义在布尔什维克期刊中的各种方面。

He's written tons of incredibly tedious articles about aspects of Marxism in Bolshevik journals.

事实上，他杀害这么多人的原因是他认为这才是通往天堂的途径，他确实是个正统的马克思主义者。

And, actually, the reason that he kills all these people is because he thinks that's the way to achieve the paradise, that he's actually a good Marxist.

当他做决定时，推动他的始终是这一点，你知道的。

And that's the thing that, you know, when he makes his decisions, that's what always drives him on.

事实上，暴力和杀戮是内在的，因为这是实现美好社会的唯一方式。

And that actually, the violence is inherent and the killing is inherent because that's the only way you're gonna achieve this this good society.

我认为，当你审视斯大林、毛泽东，甚至希特勒时，必须记住，在他们自己的视角下，他们所做的一切都是为了最好的目标。

Well, I I think that that when you look at at Stalin or Mao or indeed Hitler, you have to bear in mind that by their lights, what they're doing, they're they're doing for the best.

是的。

Yeah.

而将数百万人的死亡视为实现某种理想社会的手段，对我们大多数人来说是如此骇人听闻，这需要如此巨大的思维转变，我认为很难做到这一点。

And that you know, there's the idea of killing millions in the in the cause of of bringing about some ideal earthly is is so monstrous to most of us that it it takes such a a gear shift that I think it's difficult to do that.

但我同意。

But I agree.

我认为斯大林主义是从列宁主义中合乎逻辑地发展出来的，而列宁主义本身则是试图将马克思主义理论适应于——正如你所说——革命发生在俄国而非英国或德国这一意外事实的一种逻辑尝试。

I think that Stalinism develops logically out of Leninism, which in turn is a logical attempt to adapt Marxist theory to, as you said, the kind of unexpected fact that the the revolutions happened in Russia and not in Britain or Germany.

但我还觉得，汤姆，从本质上讲，它必须是暴力的，因为共产主义总是带有没收的成分。

But I also think, Tom, that by its nature, it has to be violent because there's always a confiscatory element in in communism.

你知道，总得有人被拉下来，而这些人永远不会说：‘当然可以。’

You know, some people have to be brought down, and those people are never gonna say, sure.

把我的家具都拿走吧。

Have all my furniture.

你明白吗？

You know?

把我的第二套房子也拿走。

Have my second home.

请拿去吧。

Please take it.

你知道，暴力始终是内在的，暴力也体现在语言中。

You know, there's always going to be violence is inherent in it, and violence is in the language.

我的意思是，列宁的语言极其暴力。

I mean, Lenin's language was extraordinarily violent.

列宁当然曾 famously 说过，你知道，我以前喜欢音乐，听一些美妙的歌曲，喜欢毛茸茸的小动物和好看的书之类的东西。

And Lenin, of course, famously said, you know, I used to like music and listening to nice, you know, songs and fluffy animals and and and nice books and stuff.

但现在我不能再那样做了。

But now I now I can't do that.

我必须变得比以往更严厉。

I have to be harder than hard.

那些东西会削弱我，让我在成为独裁者时无法下手，你知道，那时我得杀人。

Those things will weaken me for when I become dictator, you know, when I'll have to kill people.

他说到做到。

And he's as good as his word.

我认为，把列宁所代表的那种温馨的马克思主义，和斯大林时期的集体坟墓式马克思主义割裂开来，这种想法是错误的。

And I think in that to that, the idea of there being a separation between this sort of cuddly Marxism that Lenin supposedly incarnates, and then the sort of, you know, the mass graves Marxism of Stalin, I I think is a false image.

总之，汤姆，我们该休息一下了。

Anyway, we need to take a break, Tom.

抱歉。

Sorry.

我们休息一下吧。

Let's take a break.

听众们非常渴望去推翻社会现状并实现农业集体化。

The the listeners are very keen to go and overthrow social conditions and collectivize agriculture.

所以我觉得我们应该让他们去干，我们喝杯茶。

So I think we should let them do it, and we'll have a cup of tea.

然后你可以在休息后说你原本想说的话。

And then you can say what you wanted to say after the break.

怎么样？

How about that?

他们不会去听广告吗？

Are they not gonna they're gonna go and listen to adverts, aren't they?

嗯，马克思肯定会赞成的。

Well, Marx would approve, I'm sure.

好的。

Alright.

等你们尽情享受完一些资本主义冲动后，我们再见。

We'll see you after you've you've indulged some capitalist impulses.

一会儿见。

See in a minute.

欢迎回到《历史其余部分》。

Welcome back to The Rest is History.

周四，我们将推出与今天关于共产主义讨论自然配套的节目。

On Thursday, we're offering that natural companion piece to today's discussion on communism.

我们将与历史学家特蕾西·博曼讨论伊丽莎白一世。

We're talking Elizabeth the first with the historian Tracy Borman.

这里提前给你们的日程一个提醒。

And here's an early warning for your diaries.

在4月21日星期三晚上，我们将做一件非常激动人心的事。

On the evening of Wednesday, April 21, we are going to do something very exciting.

我们将首次在线直播播客节目，主题将是暗杀事件。

We're gonna do our first live episode of the podcast live on the Internet, and it's gonna be all about assassinations.

亚伯拉罕·林肯，约翰·F。

Abraham Lincoln, John F.

肯尼迪，英迪拉·甘地。

Kennedy, Indira Gandhi.

汤姆知道我们在谈论尤利乌斯·凯撒。

Tom will know that we're talking about Julius Caesar.

我们不会提前剧透的，汤姆。

We'll be not to anticipate, Tom.

不会。

No.

是的。

Yeah.

卡利古拉。

Caligula.

当然。

Of course.

非常好。

Very good.

有很多罗马人。

Loads of Romans.

是的。

Yeah.

所以那周我们会在推特上发布一个链接。

So we'll post a link on Twitter that week.

欢迎所有人参与节目，我们会现场回答问题。

Everybody is welcome so you can join the show, and we'll be answering the questions live.

到时候你们可以尽情吐槽我们，我们无处可躲。

You can throw your abuse at us then, and there's nowhere for us to hide.

这会对每个人来说都特别有趣。

It will be a lot of fun for everybody.

现在，汤姆，我刚才打断了你，你说过一些关于共产主义极其有趣的观点。

Now, Tom, I cut you off, and you wanted to say something unbelievably interesting about communism.

嗯，是的。

Well, I yeah.

极其有趣。

Unbelievably interesting.

但我打算把它和我们收到的众多问题中的第一个结合起来，这是来自邓肯·希巴德的问题：共产主义本质上是极权主义的吗？

But I'm gonna combine it with, the first of the many, many questions we've had, and this is from Duncan Hibbard, where he says, is communism inherently totalitarian?

我在思考列宁和斯大林。

I'm wondering about Lenin and Stalin.

斯大林主义难道不是本质上以经济为基础的吗？

Isn't isn't Stalinism essentially economically based?

所以它主要是试图重新配置经济。

So it it's about trying to to to reconfigure the economy.

嗯。

Mhmm.

一旦你这么做了，从某种意义上说，你就不得不掌控每一个可能的杠杆。

And once you do that, then inevitably, in a sense, you have to kind of seize control of every possible lever.

政府不控制的领域就再也没有任何空间了。

There is no space left for anyone to do anything that the government isn't controlling.

也许还存在其他形式的共产主义，比如格兰姆斯基的版本，它更强调对文化的控制而非对经济的控制。

And that there might be, I don't know, other I mean I mean, Grampsky would be maybe an alternative form of of communism that puts an emphasis on control of of culture rather than of the economy.

好的。

Okay.

所以我认为共产主义本质上是极权的，因为它不是多元主义的。

So I would say it probably is inherently totalitarian because it's not pluralist.

你知道，如果你是共产主义者，你就不会容忍，或者说，你根本无法容忍任何挑战。

You know, if you're a communist, you don't tolerate you know, you can't really tolerate challenges.

我认为，当然，列宁的民主集中制理念是，一旦政党达成一致，所有人都必须服从。

I think and and, of course, Lenin's idea of kind of democratic centralism is that basically when the parties agreed, everybody must agree.

你不能有，你知道，马克思和列宁都憎恨异议或分歧。

And you can't have you can't you know, Marx and Lenin hated dissent or disagreement.

我的意思是，他们花了大量时间试图镇压自己小圈子内任何形式的分歧。

I mean, they spent an enormous amounts of time trying to crush any sort of disagreement among their own kind of little group of skills.

所以我认为，这确实具有内在的极权主义倾向。

So I I think it probably does have an inherently totalitarian, bent.

而且我认为，汤姆，回到你刚才说的，斯大林认为俄罗斯需要迅速实现工业化，因为他完全接受了马克思主义关于历史进程的观点——即先成为工业国，然后才能成为共产主义国家。

And I think, Tom, going back to what you're saying, Stalin Stalin thought that Russia needed rapidly to industrialize because he'd completely imbibed the kind of Marxist idea about the course of history that you'd become an industrial country and then you'd become, you know, a communist one.

于是他推动了这一进程，要求全面控制，尤其是农业集体化。

So he pushes that through, you know, and he demands total control of and particularly and it's mainly the collect collectivization of agriculture.

我的意思是，这正是二十世纪三十年代初导致大量人死亡的原因。

I mean, that's what kills a lot of people at the turn of the nineteen thirties.

因为他没有其他收入来源。

He Because there's no other source for of revenue.

是的。

Yeah.

因为他需要，他确实需要。

Because he needs to he needs to yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

他希望迅速地实现工业化。

He he wants to rapidly, rapidly industrialize.

工业化。

Industrialize.

他想把粮食卖到国外。

He He wants wants to to sell sell grain grain abroad.

国外。

Abroad.

他想让人们进入工厂。

He wants to get people into the factories.

他想消除。

He wants to cut out.

他憎恨农民拥有私人财产的想法。

He hates the idea of, you know, private ownership among the peasants.

你知道，那些富农，他们自己建立了小小的土地 holdings。

You know, the kulaks who have built up their own little small holdings.

他确实想镇压他们，但这并不是因为——我的意思是，他最新的传记作者会说，他并不是一个疯狂的怪物、一个流着口水的恶魔，而是因为他是个马克思主义者，他认为这才是实现美好社会的正确做法。

He does he wants to crush them not because he's a I mean, his latest biographer would say, not because he's a a mad monster, this sort of slavering demon, but because he's a Marxist, because he thinks that's what you do to get the good society.

但他是一个背离了马克思一个相当基本主张的马克思主义者，那就是这种理念应该是普遍的。

But he's a Marxist who has turned his back on a fairly fundamental proposition of Marx that this is something universal.

我的意思是，他推动的是‘一国社会主义’的理念。

I mean, he's pushing the idea of socialism in one country.

他是这么做的。

He is.

你说得对。

You're right.

是的。

Yes.

因此，我的意思是，一旦他做出了这个决定，一旦他绑定了这个想法，很多其他事情就随之而来，因为……

And so that I mean, it's it's it's that basically that that, I guess, once he's made that decision, once he's he's hitched his start of that idea, an awful lot then follows from that because Yeah.