39. 伊丽莎白一世

我知道我拥有一个柔弱无力的女人的身体，但我拥有一个国王的心和胆识，一个英格兰国王的心和胆识。

I know I have the body of a weak and feeble woman, but I have the heart and stomach of a king and of a king of England too.

伊丽莎白一世于1588年8月18日，在西班牙无敌舰队来袭的夏天，于蒂尔伯里检阅军队时发表了这段话。

So spoke Elizabeth the first as she reviewed her troops at Tilbury on the 08/18/1588, the summer of the Spanish Armada.

尽管按照当时的标准，她已是一位年迈的女性，牙齿发黑，戴着红色假发，但这并未妨碍她的言辞成为英国历史上最伟大的动员口号之一，也未妨碍她在同时代人的心目中成为伟大统治者的典范——荣耀女神、童贞女王。

That she was by the standards of the age an old woman with black teeth and a red wig did not prevent her words from serving as one of the great rallying cries in English history and Elizabeth herself from serving in the imaginings of her contemporaries as the very model of a great ruler, Gloriana, the Virgin Queen.

而这一形象，她至今仍在延续。

And that's a role that basically she continues to serve to the present day.

多米尼克·桑布鲁克与我一同主持。

Dominic Sandbrook with me.

谢谢，汤姆。

Thanks, Tom.

一如既往。

As ever.

我意识到，这实际上是我们第一次制作一期专注于单一人物的播客。

I realise that this is actually the first time we've done a podcast devoted to one person.

你觉得她配得上这个赞誉吗？

And I do you think that she merits this accolade?

我希望你是这么认为的。

I I hope you do.

那么，我们现在要做什么？

Well What are we doing?

我本来是期待做一期关于詹姆斯·卡拉汉的节目，但好吧。

I obviously I obviously was holding out for a podcast on the life of James Callahan, but Yes.

当然。

Of course.

奇怪的是，听众的需求似乎比我想象的要少。

Weirdly, there doesn't seem as much demand among the listeners as I had thought.

所以我觉得伊丽莎白这位女王是个不错的次选。

So I think Elizabeth the verse is a good second best.

当然，她在英格兰的象征体系中是一位巨人般的人物。

Of course, she is a colossal figure in the kind of iconography of England.

而且我认为，实际上，奇怪的是，在英国脱欧之后，这位女性反抗了所谓的欧洲入侵者。

And I think, actually, weirdly post Brexit, you know, this woman defying, you know, the European invader.

我的意思是，她已经深深铭刻在我们的集体想象中。

I mean, she's sort of enshrined in our collective imagination.

想想所有那些电影和相关作品。

Think of all the films and stuff.

所以实际上，我认为她是一个绝佳的主题。

So, actually, I think she's a great subject.

我的意思是，尤其是因为人们投射在她身上的种种东西，也许我们今天的嘉宾能帮我们剥离一些神话，还原真实的故事。

I mean, not least because of stuff that people project onto And maybe our guest today can help us, you know, strip away some of the myths and get to the real story.

是的。

Yes.

因为一个伟大的主题需要一位出色的嘉宾，而我们的嘉宾无疑正是这样的人。

Because a great subject needs a great guest, and our guest is certainly that.

她就是历史学家特蕾西·博曼，著有大量广受赞誉的都铎王朝英格兰相关著作。

It's the historian Tracey Borman, author of a range of highly acclaimed books on Tudor England.

在这些著作中，与我们今天的主题密切相关的是《伊丽莎白的女性们：处女女王的隐秘故事》。

And among those, germanely for our purposes, is Elizabeth's Women, the hidden story of the Virgin Queen.

特蕾西，非常感谢您加入我们。

Tracy, thank you so much for joining us.

这真是我的荣幸，不过我得说，多米尼克称伊丽莎白为‘次等’，我有点震惊。

It's my great pleasure, although I have to say I'm slightly reeling from Dominic referring to Elizabeth as second best.

我不确定接下来会发生什么。

I'm not sure what's going to happen.

詹姆斯·卡勒汉。

To James Callahan.

但说到詹姆斯·卡勒汉，得了吧。

But to James Callahan, come on.

特蕾西，根据多米尼克的说法，历史上所有人物在詹姆斯·卡勒汉面前都是第二流的。

Tracy, everyone in history is second best to James Callahan according to Dominic.

好吧，这倒也没错。

Okay, fair enough.

但《想象历史》这个节目却不是这样，他们给我们提了一个问题，我认为这正是开启我们讨论的完美方式。他们说，如果一个人只知道几位国王或女王，那么‘伊丽莎白一世’几乎肯定会出现在那份名单上。

But not to, Imagining History, who who sent in a question to us, which I think is the perfect way to kick this off, and he or she says, chances are if a person only knows of a few kings or queens, then Lizzie One will be on that list.

关于这位君主的书籍和电影数不胜数，而且似乎永远不会有尽头。

There's countless books and films telling the tale of this monarch with no end in sight.

所以我想知道，究竟是什么让伊丽莎白一世的名声如此持久？

So I'd like to know, what was it about Elizabeth I that has made her fame so enduring?

这确实是个大问题，不是吗？

And that's the big question, isn't it?

确实是，而且你问的是一个完全有偏见的人，因为伊丽莎白是我心目中永恒的历史偶像。

It is, and you're asking somebody completely biased because Elizabeth is my all time historical heroine.

她正是我热爱历史的起点。

She's really where my love of history began.

你认为她配得上在历史上占据这样的地位吗？因为她打破了所有逆境。

Well, do think she deserved that place in history, because she defied all the odds.

当她在1558年登基时，人们普遍认为女性统治是绝对的灾难，此前也几乎没有成功的先例，但她彻底改变了这一切。

By the time she came to the throne in 1558, it was seen as an absolute disaster for a woman to bear rule, as it was said, and there hadn't been very happy precedents before Elizabeth, but she changed all of that.

她打破了女性软弱无能的刻板印象，她的统治比整个都铎王朝其他时期都更加稳定。

She confounded the stereotype of a weak and feeble woman, and her reign achieved greater stability than throughout the rest of the Tudor period.

我认为这是历史上最大的讽刺之一：她的父亲亨利八世费尽心机，只为得到一个儿子。

I think it's one of history's greatest ironies that Henry VIII, her father, goes to all that trouble for a son.

他其实完全可以满足于自己那个被遗忘的幼女。

He could have been content with his forgotten younger daughter, really.

所以亨利八世，你知道，他显然也是我们想象中的一个巨人般的人物。

So Henry the eighth, you know, obviously, he's also a titanic figure in our imagination.

他是不是始终萦绕在伊丽莎白的心头？

He must have been a is he at the back of Elizabeth's mind the whole time?

她登上了王位。

So she comes to the throne.

她之前的继任者是她的姐姐玛丽，还有爱德华六世，而在这所有人之上，就是她的父亲亨利八世。

She's had Mary, her sister before her, Edward the sixth before her, and then above them all, kind of the daddy, Henry the eighth.

她是在试图成为另一个亨利八世吗？

Is she trying to be another Henry the eighth, do think?

还是她试图成为完全相反的人？

Or is she trying to be the opposite?

我觉得这是个非常有趣的问题。

I think that's a really interesting question.

当然，伊丽莎白公开将自己与父亲联系在一起，她称自己为‘雄狮之子’，经常提到‘这在父王的时代是无法想象的’。

Certainly, Elizabeth publicly identifies with her father, so she calls herself the lion's cub, and she often refers to, well, wouldn't have happened in my father's time.

所以我认为她确实感受到父亲的存在，仿佛他始终站在她肩头，尤其是在统治初期，她仿佛在向已故的父亲证明自己。

So I think she does feel his presence, almost like he's there on her shoulder for a lot of her reign, particularly the early days, and it's like she's having to prove herself to her late father.

但我认为，她实际上希望人们将她视为亨利八世的女儿，以此淡化她也是那位声名狼藉的安妮·博林女儿的事实；但当你观察她的行动而非言辞时，就会发现她多么敬重已故的母亲——她一登基就提拔所有博林家族的亲属，并采用了母亲的徽章。

But I think actually that's what she wanted people to identify her as, as the daughter of Henry VIII, kind of gloss over the fact she's also the daughter of the scandalous Anne Boleyn, but when you look at her actions, not her words, you see how much actually she revered her late mother, The fact she promotes all her Berlin relatives as soon as she's Queen, she adopts her mother's emblem.

但她知道过多谈论安妮·博林太过敏感，因此伊丽莎白的公众形象——请记住，她可是公关大师——全部围绕着她的父亲构建。

But she knows it's too controversial to talk too much about Anne Boleyn, so the public face of Elizabeth, and let's remember she's the master of PR, is all about her father.

而特蕾西，安布尔林是新教徒，而她的异母姐姐、前任女王玛丽则是一位天主教徒。

And Tracey, Amberlynn is a Protestant, and Mary, her half sister, her predecessor, of course is a Catholic.

因此，这就像阴阳交替，十六世纪的钟摆来回摆动。

And so this is the yin and yang, the pendulum swinging backwards and forwards through the sixteenth century.

安·博林是新教徒，这是否意味着伊丽莎白注定会拒绝玛丽试图重新引入的天主教？

Did the fact that Anne Boleyn was Protestant mean that Elizabeth was always going to reject the Catholicism that Mary had tried to reintroduce?

我觉得是的，但伊丽莎白小时候的导师也对她影响很大，他们都是改革派或新教倾向的人。

I think so, but also Elizabeth was very influenced by her tutors in childhood, and they were all of a reformist or Protestant bent, really.

她还和同父异母的哥哥爱德华关系非常亲密，也就是未来的爱德华六世，他可能比伊丽莎白本人还要虔诚地信奉新教。

And she also was very close to her half brother, Edward, the future Edward VI, who was probably an even more staunch Protestant than Elizabeth herself.

所以我认为这在某种程度上是一种代际现象。

So I think it was kind of a generational thing.

玛丽比伊丽莎白大17岁，她出生时世界仍深深植根于天主教传统，而伊丽莎白出生时，时代已经开始发生巨大变化，这彻底塑造了她的世界观。

Mary was much older than Elizabeth, 17 years older, and she was born very much into a Catholic world, whereas things by the time of Elizabeth's birth were very much beginning to change, so that absolutely shaped her worldview.

玛丽和伊丽莎白关系如何？

How did Mary and Elizabeth get on?

她们真的互相讨厌吗？

Did they really dislike each other?

表面上看，我们往往认为她们从一开始就水火不容，但事实远非如此。

Well, on the face of it, we tend to think that they were loggerheads from the beginning, but far from it.

我认为玛丽值得称赞，因为她本有充分的理由憎恨这个被唾弃的安妮·博林所生的孩子，毕竟安妮取代了她自己的母亲阿拉贡的凯瑟琳。

I think Mary deserves credit, because she had every reason to hate this child of the despised Anne Boleyn, who'd supplanted her own mother Catherine of Aragon.

但在安妮·博林被处决后，她似乎对年幼的伊丽莎白感到同情。

But she seems to have felt sorry for the young Elizabeth after Anne Boleyn's execution.

她收留了伊丽莎白，我认为她有着强烈的母性本能。

She took her under her wing and I think she had quite strong maternal instincts.

令人惋惜的是，玛丽自己从未有过孩子。

It's quite tragic Mary never had a child of her own.

因此她悉心照顾伊丽莎白，甚至说服她们的父亲亨利宽恕伊丽莎白，原谅她因安妮·博林的命运以及伊丽莎白所做的一切——在亨利看来，这些都是对他的背叛。

So she really looked after Elizabeth and actually persuaded their father, Henry, to forgive Elizabeth for Anne Boleyn's fate and everything that she'd done to him as he saw it.

所以这两位姐妹实际上一起长大，关系相当亲密，但后来因宗教问题被彻底疏远，尤其是玛丽登基之后。

So the two sisters did grow up actually quite close, but then they were driven apart by this eternal issue of religion, particularly after Mary became queen.

还有宗教方面的因素。

And that religious side of things.

显然，这不仅仅是个幌子，伊丽莎白确实真心信仰新教。

Obviously, it's not just a sort of fig leaf, it's not something that you Elizabeth genuinely was a Protestant, she believes in it.

但她确实得小心翼翼地应对。

But she sort of has to navigate it really.

你知道，英格兰已经四分五裂了。

You know, England has been torn apart.

它一会儿往这边，一会儿又往那边。

It's it's gone one way then the other.

她是个务实的人。

She's a pragmatist.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，她必须在这片极其复杂的水域中穿行。

I mean, she's sort of navigating through these very tricky kind of waters.

奇怪的是，

And actually, the weird thing

我们最终拥有的是她的教会，一种半天主教、半新教的混合体。

is that we've ended up with her church, which is a kind of half Catholic, half Protestant.

这样说是对的吗？

Is that is that about right?

一半天主教，一半新教？

A half Catholic, half Protestant?

是的。

Yep.

多米尼克，你用‘实用主义者’这个词简直一针见血。

You've you've absolutely hit the nail on the head there, Dominic, with the word, you know, pragmatist.

她本质上就是这样的。

That's what she was, above everything else.

是的，她可能有相当坚定的信仰，也确实更偏向新教而非天主教，但她追求的是妥协，不希望宗教问题继续分裂她的子民。

Yes, she might have had quite strong beliefs, and she definitely veered more towards Protestantism than Catholicism, but she wanted compromise, she didn't want this issue of religion to continue to divide her people.

所以我们有了这个美妙的妥协产物——英格兰教会。如果允许我插一句，因为我总是要提她，我最钟爱的六位王后之一是克利夫斯的安妮。

So we have this wonderful compromise that is the Church of England, and if I may just put in a little pitch, because I always have to mention her, my favourite of the six wives, Anne of Cleves.

我认为正是她教会了伊丽莎白实用主义的艺术。

I think it's she who taught Elizabeth the art of pragmatism.

她帮亨利争取到了离婚，也目睹了那些不顺从亨利意愿的女性的下场，因此她顺势而为，成为亨利六位妻子中 arguably 最成功的一位，而伊丽莎白也深受安妮·克利夫斯的影响，学会了实用主义的处世之道。

She'd given Henry his annulment, she'd seen what had happened to women who didn't do what Henry wanted, so she went with the flow, became arguably the most successful of Henry's wives, and Elizabeth became very influenced by Anne of Cleves and learned the art of pragmatism.

安妮·克利夫斯活得最久，对吧？

Anne of Cleves lived the longest, didn't she?

是的。

She did.

她比其他人都活得久。

She outlived all the rest.

她一直活到玛丽女王统治时期，我认为这恰恰证明了她从未与任何人发生过冲突。

She lived well into Mary's reign, and I think it's really to her credit that she didn't fall out with anybody.

无论你是天主教徒还是新教徒，无论你站在王室的哪一边，大家都喜欢她。

Catholic, Protestant, whichever side of the royal divide you're on, everybody liked her.

没有人对安妮·克利夫斯说过一句坏话，所以我特别喜欢她。

Nobody had a bad word to say against Anne of Cleves, so I love her.

她得到了苏塞克斯郡的许多房产。

She got given a lot of houses in Sussex.

哦，是吗。

Oh, did.

这些房产现在由萨塞克斯考古学会所有，这是英国最古老的郡级考古学会，但资金略显紧张。

And they are now owned by the Sussex Archaeological Society, Britain's oldest county archaeological society, which is slightly short of cash.

如果有人愿意帮助他们，请慷慨解囊，您将为保护一段历史出一份力。

Anyone out there would like to help them, do do chip in, and you'll be helping with a bit of history.

但是，特蕾西，我刚才说到伊丽莎白，她是个实用主义者，但在我看来，她还有一种特质——我有点能理解这种特质，因为我自己也有。

But, Tracy, I was about Elizabeth, mean, she's a pragmatist, but she's also, it seems to me, and I I kind of recognize this trait in her because I kinda have it myself.

你把自己比作那位‘处女女王’？

You're comparing yourself to the Yes, Virgin

是的，我就是。

I am.

始终如一，永远不变。

Sempare Adem, always the same.

她基本上很不喜欢变化，对吧？

Basically, didn't like change very much, did she?

我现在强烈感受到这一点，因为昨天我参加了一个Zoom会议，回来后发现我妻子把整个城堡的墙纸都换掉了。

And I'm feeling this very strongly at the moment because my my I went up for a Zoom yesterday, came down and found that my wife had completely re wallpapered the citadel.

我认为伊丽莎白一世不会赞成这种做法，我也对此感到有点惊讶。

And I think that Elizabeth I would not have approved of that, and I was kind of slightly startled by it as well.

某种程度上，她拒绝拆除教堂和大教堂里的唱诗班等传统，我非常庆幸她没有这么做。

And there's a kind of sense in which her refusal to get rid, say, of the choirs in cathedrals and churches and things, which I'm very glad she didn't.

总的来说，她喜欢保持原状，不想改变，所以不管激进的新教徒想做什么，她都会坚持保留。

Basically, liked it, she didn't want to change it, so she's going to keep it no matter what the firebrand Protestants wanted to do.

也就是说，这也是她性格的一个方面，对吧？

Mean, that is also an aspect of her character, isn't

确实如此。

It absolutely is.

我想知道，这是历史学家的特质吗？

I wonder, is this a historian's trait?

因为我和她完全一样，我讨厌变化，根本无法忍受。

Because I'm exactly the same, I hate change, I cannot abide it.

伊丽莎白确实有一个恰当的座右铭，我认为，尽管她被看作是一位新教君主，但她保留了那些她一直比较喜欢的天主教元素，实际上有证据表明她私下仍参加弥撒，她有天主教朋友，她的藏书中也有天主教书籍，所以她确实有点挑挑拣拣。

Think Elizabeth certainly had an appropriate motto, and I think even though she has gone down as a Protestant monarch, she did retain those bits of the Catholic faith that she'd always rather liked, and actually there's evidence she continued to hear Mass in private, and she had Catholic friends, she had Catholic books in her collection, so she did sort of pick and choose a little bit.

我们来谈谈有些人会认为的关键问题。

Let's get to what some people would consider the big question.

我说的有些人，当然不是我，但推特上的琼或约翰确实认为这是个关键问题。

When I say some people, not me, of course, But June or John on the on Twitter does consider this the big question.

他——或者她——当然说，关于她是否真的是处女，一直存在争议。

He's he or she he or she says, of course, there's the debate as to whether she was really a virgin.

历史学家们无法抗拒去探究她的私生活。

Historians can't resist probing her private area.

我觉得这是个男人，多米尼克。

Think that's a man, Dominic.

那就是个男人。

That's a man.

对于这个问题，我表示歉意。

I apologize for the question.

我觉得那实际上是汤姆·霍兰德。

I think that's I think that's actually Tom Holland.

是的。

Yeah.

他问过这个问题。

He's asked that question.

绝对不是。

Absolutely not.

非常尊重处女女王的隐私。

Great respecter of the Virgin Queen's privacy.

你知道，如果我没被问到这个问题就好了，因为每次演讲我都会被问到这个问题。

You know, would be if I didn't get this question, because every single talk I give, I'm asked this question.

我说的每次演讲，即使主题完全不同，我也曾做过一场关于征服者威廉的妻子佛兰德斯的玛蒂尔达的讲座，问答环节的第一个问题就是：伊丽莎白真的是处女女王吗？

And when I say every single talk, even if the talk has been on something completely different, I once gave lecture on Matilda of Flanders, the wife of William the Conqueror, and in the Q and A the very first question was, So was Elizabeth really the Virgin Queen?

对此我感到很不满。

Which I took offense at.

总之，我的观点是她确实一直是处女。

Anyway, so my view is that she absolutely was.

这并不意味着她没有与男性宠臣有过一些暧昧和 flirtations，但当你仔细审视时，她从过去的经历中吸取了教训，难怪她长大后对婚姻和生育充满恐惧，她的童年缺乏积极的榜样，早期生活中也缺乏正面的女性影响。

That's not to say she didn't dabble in various flirtations and the like with her male favourites, but when you look at it, she had learned from the lessons of her past, there's no wonder she grew up terrified of marriage, of childbirth, she had no positive role models from her childhood and the female influences of her early life.

她的母亲是奉她父亲的命令被处决的，她的一位继母也被处决了。

Her mother was executed at the orders of her father, one of her stepmothers was also executed.

她的姐姐玛丽曾出现过假孕，并承受了所有的羞辱。

Her sister Mary had phantom pregnancies and suffered all that humiliation.

因此，伊丽莎白长大后觉得‘好吧，这真的不适合我’，也就不足为奇了。

So there's little wonder Elizabeth grew up thinking, 'Okay, this just isn't for me'.

但从政治角度来看，她也不愿意把任何权力交给男人。

But politically as well, she didn't want to give any power away to a man.

现在，有关于她有婚外情的传闻，而且当时就存在这些传闻。

Now, there are rumors, and there were rumors, that she had affairs.

好吧，她不想结婚，但她仍然会保持性关系。

Okay, didn't want to marry, but she was still going to have sexual relationships.

我不认为她会冒这样的风险，因为她知道这会给她的声誉带来丑闻，而且当然还有怀孕的风险。

I don't believe she would ever have taken that risk, because she knew the scandal it would visit on her, and also, of course, the risk of pregnancy.

但我认为，证明伊丽莎白贞洁的最有力证据之一出现在1562年。

But I think one of the most compelling pieces of evidence for Elizabeth's virginity came in 1562.

现在，我要插一句，我本该现在在汉普顿宫。

Now, I'm going to get a plug in for where I should be right now, which is Hampton Court.

这是我为历史皇家宫殿工作时的日常工作。

This is my day job working for Historic Royal Pulses.

在她统治早期，伊丽莎白在汉普顿宫逗留期间感染了天花，这是当时最致命的疾病之一。

It's while staying at Hampton Court early in her reign that Elizabeth contracted smallpox, one of the deadliest diseases of the age.

她差点丧命。

She almost died.

她深信自己即将死去，于是召来了忏悔神父，并坚持声称她与最亲近的男性宠臣罗伯特·达德利之间从未有过任何不妥之事。

She was so convinced she was going to die that she summoned her confessor, and she insisted that nothing improper had ever passed between her and her closest male favorite, Robert Dudley.

你可能会说，好吧，是的，说起来容易。

Now you might say, Okay, yeah, words are easy.

在这个敬畏上帝的时代不会。

Not in this God fearing age.

她会认为，说谎会牺牲她永恒的救赎。

She would have thought that she was sacrificing her eternal salvation by telling a lie.

所以我确实认为她是处女，但正如我所说，她可能偶尔有过越界行为。

So I do think she was the virgin, but, you know, she may have, as I say, dabbled.

难道不是真的吗？德雷克搬进了离她很近的房间之类的？

Isn't it true that Dudley had room she moved Dudley into a room next to her or something?

哦，你可以说

Oh, you could

而且你不觉得，

and and you don't think that,

你知道，在深夜里吗？还是你觉得，我的意思是，这太下流了吧，不是吗？

you know, in the dead of night or do you think what well, I mean, this is so prurient, isn't it?

这让我们变成了像阅读网络上的‘羞耻侧栏’或类似内容的人。

It reduces us to sort of people reading, you know, the sidebar of shame and mail online or something.

不。

No.

但但但你真的不认为你觉得她有吗

But but but you genuinely don't think you think she had it

我想她有

I suppose she had it

极强的自制力，不是吗？

iron self control, didn't she?

她和

She And

她在私生活中也会运用这种自制力，就像在政治生活中一样。

she would have exercised that in her private life as well as her political life.

她确实如此，我认为她是从母亲那里继承了这种自制力，她母亲曾将亨利八世拒之门外七年。

She absolutely did, and I think she'd inherited that self control from her mother who kept Henry the eighth at bay for seven years.

所以我认为她确实会运用这种自制力。

So I do think she'd have exercised that.

我认为她确实很享受达德利的陪伴，而且她确实做过一些在当时人看来完全不当的事情，比如把他的房间安排在自己隔壁，在授予他荣誉时逗弄他的衣领，诸如此类的事情。

I think she certainly enjoyed Dudley's company, and absolutely she did things that were completely inappropriate in the eyes of her contemporaries, moving his rooms next to her, tickling his collar when she conveyed an honour on him, and all sorts of things like that.

但我认为她从未发展到与达德利有完整的性关系。

But I don't think she ever went so far as to have a full sexual relationship with Dudley.

我认为她不会冒这样的风险。

I don't think she'd have taken the risk.

特蕾西，关于伊丽莎白的贞洁，我还有两个其他问题。

Tracy, two other questions on this theme of Elizabeth's virginity.

一个来自克里斯托弗·肯特。

One from Christopher Kent.

‘贞洁女王’这一形象在多大程度上是对托马斯·西摩丑闻的回应？

How much of the Virgin Queen persona was a reaction to the scandal with Thomas Seymour?

他不是她的监护人吗？

So he was her guardian, wasn't he?

是的。

Yes.

而且当时还有传言称他可能试图强奸她。

And there was rumours perhaps of attempted rape.

确实如此。

Absolutely.

所以

So

你能给我们讲讲这背后的背景吗？

can you give us the background on that?

因为我觉得这非常有趣。

Because I think that's very interesting.

这确实很有趣。

It is interesting.

托马斯·西摩在亨利八世去世后不久，就与伊丽莎白的最后一位继母凯瑟琳·帕尔结了婚，这在当时引起了巨大丑闻。

So Thomas Seymour married Elizabeth's last stepmother, Catherine Parr, scandalously soon after Henry VIII's death.

伊丽莎白非常爱凯瑟琳·帕尔，因此她原谅了她这场颇为不当且仓促的婚姻，并搬去和他们一起住。

Elizabeth loved Catherine Parr, so she forgave her for this rather inappropriate, quick marriage, and she went to live with them.

正如你所说，西摩是她的监护人。

As you say, Seymour was her guardian.

不久之后，就开始流传关于西摩对少女伊丽莎白行为的谣言，这种行为简直太过分了。

And not long afterwards, rumors started about Seymour's behaviour towards the teenage Elizabeth, and it was absolutely out of order as behaviour goes.

所以他会一大早趁伊丽莎白还没起床穿衣时，溜进她的房间，在床上挠她痒。

So he would go into Elizabeth's room early in the morning before she was up and dressed and sort of tickle her in bed.

另一次，凯瑟琳·帕尔按住伊丽莎白，而西摩把她的裙子剪成了上百片。

On another occasion, he cut her gown into 100 pieces, while Catherine Parr held Elizabeth down.

这一切都令人深感不安。

It's all deeply disturbing.

这真是

That's

非常奇怪。

very weird.

真的很奇怪。

It's really weird.

这被称为儿童虐待，但有趣的是，人们的看法发生了变化，因为历史学家过去总是将此事描绘成伊丽莎白早年的 flirtation，认为这让她习惯了身边围绕着仰慕她的廷臣；而如今，我们则认为这更加令人不安，我认为这种看法是正确的。

It has been called child abuse, and yet it's interesting how attitudes change, because this was always portrayed by historians as Elizabeth having this early flirtation, and it gave her a taste for surrounding herself with admiring courtiers, whereas now we see it as much more disturbing, and I think rightly so.

我认为这确实给伊丽莎白上了宝贵的一课。

I think it did teach Elizabeth very valuable lessons.

它很可能坚定了她对婚姻和与男性关系的抗拒，让她不想涉足其中。

It probably confirmed her belief that really she just didn't want to go there when it came to marriage and relationships with men.

我认为这还让她变得极为保护自己的关系，因为这件事严重损害了她的公众形象。

I think as well it made her very protective of her relationship, because this was incredibly damaging to her public image.

这不仅在英国，而且在国际上都引发了巨大丑闻，损害了她作为潜在新娘的声誉。

It was an absolute scandal, not just in England but internationally, and it damaged her reputation as a potential bride.

我认为这确实促使她此后下定决心保护自己的声誉。

I think this did make her really motivated to protect her reputation going forward.

好的，明白了。

Right, okay.

那么，接下来谈谈这一点，处女身份如何成为她政治责任的象征。

And so following up on that, the way in which perhaps the virginity becomes the badge of her political responsibility.

米姆问了一个问题：她对自己的形象有多大的意识和掌控力？

There's a question from Mim who asks, how aware and impersonal control was she of her image?

替换圣母玛利亚的形象广为人知，但将她与异教神祇直接比较的例子众多且极为巧妙。

The replacement Virgin Mary stuff is well known, but the many direct comparisons to pagan deities are multiple and very skilful.

因此，这就是斯宾塞和其他诗人所处的整体氛围。

So that's all kind of the climate that you get with Spencer and other poets.

这很有趣，不是吗？

That is interesting, isn't it?

这确实非常有趣，我认为伊丽莎白完全掌控着自己的形象。

It's really interesting, and I think Elizabeth was absolutely in control of her image.

我提到过，她堪称公关大师，用今天的话说，她非常谨慎地控制着自己的形象，比如在绘画中使用所谓的‘青春面具’，让她永远不显老；她还积极参与策划和设计自己的公共庆典与巡游，营造出一个她作为不可企及的处女、身处满朝爱慕者、顾问和使节之中的世界，她对细节的关注令人惊叹，甚至细致到要求侍女们穿着素雅的服饰，以衬托她自己华丽的礼服。

I mentioned she was a master of PR, really, as we would call it today, and she very carefully controlled her image in paintings with the so called mask of youth, where she never ages, and she also was instrumental in the crafting and the design of her public pageants and progresses, and she created this world in which she was the unattainable virgin in a court full of adoring men and advisers and ambassadors, and her attention to detail was quite extraordinary, all the way down to obliging her ladies to dress in sober colours so that her own glorious gowns were shown off to best effect.

我很喜欢这一点。

I love that.

你认为她的形象填补了空白，即通过抹去圣母形象来消除天主教的影响吗？

Do you think the idea that she fills a gap, the banishment of the Virgin with banishment of the Catholicism.

你觉得这个观点站得住脚吗？

Do you think that's an idea that holds water?

我认为是的，我认为她公开将自己定位为人间的圣母玛利亚，这或许是天主教遗留下来的一种她非常珍视的元素，但她将其转化为了替代品，我认为这真是绝妙之举。

I think it is, and I think she publicly identified herself as a sort of Virgin Mary here on Earth, and perhaps that's one of those remnants of Catholicism that actually she had quite cherished, but she became something to replace that, and I think that was a real masterstroke.

这不仅仅是要求臣民服从她，更是对她的崇拜。

It about worshipping her, not just obeying her, as all subjects were required to do.

这使她的权威完全提升到了另一个层次。

This kind of set her authority on a whole other footing.

汤姆，我看到前方有西班牙船只。

Tom, I can see Spanish ships ahead.

我觉得我们应该休息一下，玩一局保龄球。

I think we should take a break, play a game of bowls.

好的。

Yes.

召集我们的部队，然后我们再回来。

Get our our troops together, and then we'll come back.

是的，我们可以再问特蕾西一些问题。

And, yes, we can can ask Tracy some more questions.

休息结束后见。

We'll see you after the break.

欢迎回到《历史其余部分》。

Welcome back to The Rest is History.

汤姆和我都有关于伊丽莎白一世的问题要问特蕾西，但既然我现在掌握话筒，我先问我的问题。

Tom and I both have questions for Tracy Borman about Elizabeth the first, but since I'm in control of the mic, I'm gonna ask my question first.

所以，特蕾西，西班牙无敌舰队——也就是我们 podcast 的开端——你认为它对伊丽莎白的王位和生命构成了多大的真实威胁？在击退腓力二世这件事上，我们应该把多少功劳归于她本人，而不是她的将领，或者天气？

So, Tracy, the Spanish Armada, which is where we began the podcast, how much of a genuine threat to Elizabeth's crown and life do you think it was, and how much credit should we give her her rather than her captains for or or indeed the weather for seeing off Philip the second.

我认为，无敌舰队是伊丽莎白乃至英格兰多年来所面临的最大威胁。

So I think the armada was the greatest threat that not just Elizabeth, but England had faced, really for many years.

仅就西班牙在本国集结舰队并启航而言，这支舰队实际上与伊丽莎白的海军实力相当，但关键在于，西班牙无敌舰队计划与帕尔马公爵的舰队和部队会合，而帕尔马公爵的部队驻扎在邻近英格兰的尼德兰地区。

Now, on its own, Philip II assembling a fleet in Spain and setting sail, that fleet was actually pretty well matched with Elizabeth's navy, but the key factor here was that the Spanish Armada was going to unite with the Duke of Palmer's ships and the Duke of Palmer's forces, which was stationed in The Netherlands, perilously close to England.

如果这次会合成功完成，我认为无敌舰队几乎是不可战胜的，但最终并未实现，随后又接连发生了一系列灾难，尤其是天气因素。

Now, if that rendezvous had happened successfully, I think the armada was pretty much unbeatable, but it didn't, and then there was a series of catastrophes, not least the weather.

但我认为我们也必须给予伊丽莎白的指挥官们一些赞誉，比如霍华德勋爵以及她当时海军中的其他成员，因为他们都是技艺高超的水手和战术专家，使用火船的策略起到了关键作用。

But I think we have to give some credit to Elizabeth's commanders, Lord Howard, and the other members of her navy, such as it was in those days, because they were very skilled sailors and they were very skilled tacticians as well, and the use of fire ships was quite instrumental.

但必须承认，综合来看，如果不是英国的好天气最终决定了战局，我不确定舰队的溃败是否真能成为伊丽莎白最辉煌的时刻。

But I have to say that all of that considered, if it hadn't been for the good old British weather deciding the day, then I'm not sure the Armada really would have been Elizabeth's finest hour.

但是，特蕾西，如果他们成功了呢？

But but, Tracy, if they'd if it had worked.

对吧？

Right?

如果他们控制了英吉利海峡，把军队运到英格兰，那伊丽莎白是不是就完蛋了？

If they'd got, you know, if they'd if they'd got control of the channel, if they'd got the troops over into England, I mean, would would that have been curtains for Elizabeth?

我的意思是，她会不会被送上断头台，还是躲进修道院？

I mean, would it have been an appointment with a chopping block, or would she been off to a convent?

或者，她的未来会是什么样子？

Or, you know, what was the what was the future for her?

是的。

Yeah.

我认为伊丽莎白会完蛋，因为腓力二世不可能允许她活着，真正建立自己的权威。

I I think it would have been curtains for Elizabeth, because Philip the second couldn't have allowed her to live, really, and establish his own authority.

我的意思是，他能娶她，或者把她嫁给自己的家族成员吗？

I mean, could he have married her or married her to one of his family?

也许可以，但我认为她始终会被视为太大的威胁。

Possibly, but I think she would always have been seen as too great a threat.

所以我认为伊丽莎白的生命将走到尽头，而是否会有足够的抵抗力量并协调一致地驱逐西班牙人、在腓力二世的控制下另立一位英格兰或苏格兰君主，这则更值得商榷。

So I think it would have been the end of Elizabeth's life, whether in fact there would have been enough resistance and coordinated resistance to eject Spain and install another English or probably Scottish monarch in Philip II's place is a bit more debatable.

但毫无疑问，这对伊丽莎白和整个都铎王朝来说都是生死存亡的危机。

But no, this was absolute peril for Elizabeth and the entire Tudor dynasty.

因为蒂尔伯里战役本质上就是老爸的军队，对吧？

Because the thing about Tilbury is basically it was dad's army, wasn't it?

而另一边的西班牙军队可以说是当时欧洲最致命的杀戮机器。

And the Spanish troops on the other side are kind of the most lethal killing machine in Europe.

所以如果他们真的渡海登陆，一切就都结束了。

So if they had crossed, would have all been over.

是的，这一切确实有几分《爸爸的军队》的味道，但当伊丽莎白发表那场标志性的演讲时——让我们承认，这是她众多公开讲话中最出色的一次——当她在蒂尔伯里向士兵们说出那些令人振奋的话语时，危险实际上已经基本消退了。

Yeah, there's more than a whiff of Dad's Army about all of this, but by the time that Elizabeth delivered that iconic speech and let's give her credit for that speech of all of her many public addresses, that was the best, I think by the time she was at Tilbury saying all those amazing, inspiring words to her troops, the danger had pretty much passed.

但她当时并不知道吧？

She didn't know that, did she, by that point?

这样说公平吗？

Is that fair?

我简直不敢相信你居然在为她辩护，而我又在说话了，按理说应该是反过来才对。

I can't believe that you're defending her, and I'm sort of speaking again, so it should be the other way around, actually.

但没错，你说得对。

But no, you're right.

考虑到当时的沟通条件，她其实并没有那么脱离现实。

She probably communications being as it were, she she wasn't that away.

她这么做仍然是非常勇敢的。

It was still a very brave thing for her to do.

但是，特蕾西，如果我可以插一句的话。

But but, Tracy, if I can jump in.

汤姆知道我喜欢持怀疑态度。

Tom knows I like to be skeptical.

那场演讲，我的意思是，我们怎么知道她真的说了那些话呢？

That speech, I mean, how do we know that she actually said any of those words?

那些话会不会只是编年史家或其他人编出来安在她头上的？

Is that not are those not just words put in her mouth by a chronicler or something?

不过，为了替伊丽莎白辩护，我认为我们可以相当确定：当时不止一个人记录了那场演讲，而是有好几位亲历者写了记录。

Well, the thing is, in Elizabeth's defence, and I and I think we can be pretty certain about this, there wasn't just one account of that speech, there were several written by people who were there.

这些记录并不完全一致，但非常接近，尤其是某些关键语句。

Now they don't exactly match up, but it's close enough, particularly with certain lines.

我想相信它。

I want to believe it.

我想相信它。

I want to believe it

和任何人一样。

as much as anybody.

是的，当然。

Yes, absolutely.

人们认为伊丽莎白说过那番话的原因之一，是因为她是一位伟大的作家。

One of the reasons for thinking that Elizabeth said that was that she was a great writer.

我的意思是，她是一个非常、非常有文化素养的人。

I mean, she was a very, very literate person.

当然，这是英国文学的黄金时代。

And of course, this is the great age of English literature.

因此，西班牙无敌舰队渗透进了诗人们的著作中。

So the Spanish Armada percolates through into the writings of the poets.

它出现在莎士比亚的作品里：‘来自世界三隅的军队集结而来，我们将震撼他们。’

It's there in Shakespeare, come the three corners of the world in arms and we shall shock them.

你认为伊丽莎白在多大程度上扮演了这场文学复兴的主导天才角色？

To what extent do you think Elizabeth plays a role as the kind of presiding genius of that literary Renaissance?

还有一个与此相关的问题：你认为这些文学作品的卓越才华，在多大程度上反过来塑造了我们对伊丽莎白的看法？

And also kind of a matching question, to what extent do you think the genius of that writing then reflects back on the perspective that we have on Elizabeth?

我认为人们很容易陷入一种诱惑，我也曾未能幸免，那就是把伊丽莎白时代文化与艺术的辉煌成就全部归功于伊丽莎白本人。

I think there is a temptation, and I've fallen prey to this, to give Elizabeth credit for everything that happened in this glorious Elizabethan flowering of culture and the arts.

但我确实认为她是艺术的伟大赞助者。

But I do think that she was a great patron of the arts.

我们知道她观看过莎士比亚的戏剧，显然埃德蒙·斯宾塞也是她非常喜爱的作家，因此她积极地参与并推动了艺术的发展，但与此同时，也存在其他影响因素。

We know that she attended plays by Shakespeare, obviously Edmund Spenser was a big favourite as well, so she was an active participant and promoter of the arts, but arguably there were other influences at play here too.

她帮助建立的政权与国家的稳定，无疑促进了艺术与文学的繁荣；而十六世纪后期，我们从全球各地汲取的各种影响，我认为对艺术的发展也产生了深远的影响。

The stability of the regime and of the kingdom that she had helped to establish certainly did promote this flowering of the arts and of literature, and the fact that we were getting influences from all corners of the globe during the later sixteenth century, I think that was very profound as well in terms of the development of the arts.

但人们都追随伊丽莎白的步伐。

But people followed Elizabeth's lead.

她去剧院看戏，阅读所有这些戏剧作品，资助这些艺术家、作家和剧作家，因此当时英格兰的名流显贵们无不紧随伊丽莎白的足迹，这正是为什么在伊丽莎白统治时期，我们能看到如此丰厚的艺术资助——如果用现代术语来说的话。

She was going to the theatre, she was reading all of these plays and patronising all of these artists and authors and playwrights, and so the great and the good of England at the time absolutely went where Elizabeth followed, and that's why you get of the funding for the arts, if you like, if you put it in modern terms, that we see during Elizabeth's reign.

但伊丽莎白时代的英格兰还有另一面，不是吗，特蕾西？尼克·布朗在推特上提出了这个问题。

But there's another side to Elizabeth's England, isn't there, Tracy, which Nick Brown has asked question about on Twitter.

他想了解伯利和沃尔辛厄姆的监控体系。

And he wants to know about the Burghley Walsingham surveillance state.

而他

And he

问道，普通民众是否觉得必须谨言慎行？

says, did ordinary citizens feel they had to watch what they said?

而且还有像斯蒂芬·阿尔福德写的《监视者》这类书籍。

And there are books like Stephen Alford's book, The Watchers and stuff.

你知道，就是那种把伊丽莎白时期的英格兰描绘成她基本上是个戴假发的疯子的形象。

You know, this sort of image of Elizabeth in England where she's basically a sort of lunatic with a wig.

而且，你知道，公众某种程度上生活在恐惧中，觉得到处都有间谍。

And, you know, the the public are kinda living in fear that, you know, there's spies everywhere.

存在偏执和阴谋论，这就像是某种伊丽莎白时期的东德状态。

There's paranoia and conspiracies, and and it's just this sort of, you know, this sort of Elizabethan East Germany.

你对这一切作何回应？

How do you respond to all that?

你觉得这其中是否有些许真实性？

Do you think there's bit of truth in all that?

沃尔辛厄姆和一定程度上伯利所建立的间谍网络的复杂性，确实有其真实之处。

There's certainly truth in the sophistication of the spy networks that Walsingham and, to a lesser extent, Burleigh helped to establish.

顺便说一句，我非常推崇史蒂芬·奥尔森的这本书，我不断向别人推荐，它令人惊叹，真正揭示了稳定伊丽莎白政权所付出的全部努力——这不仅仅是伊丽莎白发表伟大演讲和留下难忘公开形象那么简单，还有大量幕后工作支撑着她坐稳王位，我认为沃尔辛厄姆在全球范围内（而不仅限于英格兰）建立起的通信渠道令人印象深刻。

And by the way, I'm a huge fan of Stephen Olsen's book, and I keep recommending it to people, it's amazing and a real eye opener to just what went into stabilising the Elizabethan regime, and the fact it isn't just Elizabeth there making her great speeches and these memorable public appearances, there's a whole lot that went into keeping her on her throne, and I think it's incredibly impressive the communication channels that Walsingham managed to open up across the world, not just in England.

但我认为，说伊丽莎白只是这一切背后的无能傀儡、纯粹的象征性人物，而没有自己掌控大局，这种说法走得太远了，我相信她实际上是在掌控全局的。

But I think it goes too far to say that Elizabeth is some ineffectual puppet at the head of all of this, just a figurehead, and that she isn't pulling her own strings, as I believe she was.

从对议会会议、她出席的议会以及她与大臣们通信的描述中，你可以看到她个人参与的程度有多深，她如何亲自塑造甚至在某种程度上主导着国家事务。

I think you see from the descriptions of the council meetings, the parliaments that she attended, of her correspondence with her ministers, just how much she is personally involved, how much she is shaping and, to a certain extent, dictating affairs.

但我认为伊丽莎白最了不起的才能之一，就是她愿意听取建议。

But I think one of Elizabeth's greatest gifts is that she did take advice.

她不像她父亲那样有同样的自负，她父亲喜欢假装自己是唯一掌权者，所有主意都出自他一人之手，而实际上真正幕后操盘的是像托马斯·克伦威尔和沃尔西这样的人。

She didn't quite have the same ego as her father, who liked to pretend that he was the one solely in charge, coming up with all the ideas, when really it's the likes of, Thomas Cromwell and and Woolsey, working behind the scenes.

而伊丽莎白则公开依赖像威廉·塞西尔、韦利勋爵这样的顾问。

Whereas Elizabeth, you know, she she very publicly did depend on advisers such as as, William Cecil, Lord Verley.

我的意思是，接着说说伊丽莎白时代英格兰那种阴暗面。

I mean, follow-up on that, the darkness that one could see in Elizabethan England.

因为这是一个充满潜在恐怖威胁、流行病、经济衰退和与欧洲隔离的时代。

Because this is a time of potential terrorist threats, pandemics, recession, isolation from Europe.

这其中确实存在某些相似之处。

There are certain parallels there.

当我想到伊丽莎白时代的英格兰时，总是会联想到蓝天、伊丽莎白女王在欢乐的英格兰游行，人们围着枫树跳舞的场景。

I guess the kind of When I think of Elizabethan England, always think of blue skies and yes, the Elizabeth's procession through merry England and people dancing around maples.

但现实无疑更加阴暗和沉重，尤其是对天主教徒而言，也对许多在经济困难时期挣扎求生的人们来说。

But of course the reality must have been grimmer and darker, particularly if you're Catholic, but also for lots of people struggling to make a living in what economically were quite difficult times.

正如你所说，瘟疫对伊丽莎白时代英格兰的影响，如今我们比一年半前有了更深刻的感受。

And as you say, the impact of plague on Elizabethan England, obviously you have a profounder sense of it now than perhaps we might have had a year and a half ago.

我知道，当代的相似之处确实非常显著。

I know the the contemporary parallels really are very striking.

我认为在整个都铎时期，大约四年前，有人请我为一家全国性报纸（我不会说出名字）写一篇关于‘亨利八世是否应对英国脱欧负责？’的文章。

I think throughout the Tudor period, was asked, about four and a half years ago to write a piece for a national newspaper that I won't name, on was Henry the eighth responsible for Brexit?

是的，大卫·斯塔基写了那篇文章。

Yeah, David Starkey did that piece.

就是这样。

There you go.

我想我写过那篇文章。

Think I've done that piece.

哦，好吧。

Oh, okay.

所以我决定不涉及这个话题。

Well, I decided not to go there.

你看，这就是我有多不喜欢争议，多米尼克，但显然你比我勇敢。

There you go, that's how little I like controversy, Dominic, but obviously you're braver than me.

但确实存在一些相似之处，我认为伊丽莎白时代的英格兰无疑有更黑暗的一面，尤其是随着统治的推进和继承问题日益突出，毕竟我们有一位处女女王，她不会留下任何直系后代，这时人们对未来才真正感到不安，天主教徒无论是国内还是国外的威胁也在不断增加。

But there were parallels certainly, and I think there is a darker side, undoubtedly, to Elizabethan England, and particularly as the reign progresses and as the succession becomes more of an issue, because of course we have the Virgin Queen, she's not going to leave any direct descendants, and that's when really there is nervousness about the future, and there is an increasing threat from the Catholic community, both within and outside England.

作为我为历史宫殿工作的一部分，我经常去伦敦塔，我觉得观察伊丽莎白晚年时期笼罩其上的黑暗氛围的实物证据非常震撼，这些证据来自伦敦塔内的比彻姆塔，那里可以看到1580年代和1590年代被关押的天主教囚犯留下的涂鸦，他们因涉嫌策划刺杀伊丽莎白而被监禁。

Now, as part of my work for historical palaces, I am at the Tower Of London a lot, and I think it's striking to look at the physical evidence for this darkness that descended in Elizabeth's later years, and that comes from the Beecham Tower inside the Tower Of London, where you see the evidence of graffiti left behind in the 1580s, 1590s by all of the Catholic prisoners who were kept there under suspicion of plotting Elizabeth's assassination.

所以请记住，教皇曾批准过这项行动。

So let's remember, the pope had sanctioned it.

他鼓动同信仰的人去谋杀他们的女王，你真的能在伦敦塔内的比彻姆塔的石墙上看到这些刻痕。

He'd encouraged people of the faith to actually murder their queen, and you really see that chiseled into the stone of the Beecham Tower inside the Tower Of London.

我认为大多数参观伦敦塔的人会直奔王冠珠宝，但我还是想为比彻姆塔说几句好话。

I think most people who visit the tower tend to make a beeline for the crown jewels, but I'd like to just put in a pitch for the Beecham Tower.

这真的非常令人毛骨悚然。

It's really very chilling.

特蕾西，考虑到稳定对伊丽莎白有多么重要，以及都铎王朝作为一个新王朝——

Tracy, given how much stability mattered to Elizabeth and how much the question of I mean, Tudor dynasty is a new dynasty.

你知道，它从1485年才开始。

You know, it's only been there since 1485.

考虑到这显然且合情合理地对她的父亲至关重要，她却长期让继承问题悬而未决，这似乎有些奇怪，因为你会觉得继承规划应该是头等大事。

And given how much it obviously and understandably mattered to her father, it seems odd that the succession is kind of that question is just hanging there the whole time because you'd think succession planning would be, you know, the number one priority.

例如，推特上的保罗·伯纳迪问：你认为她为什么让这个问题悬而未决这么久？

So for example, Paul Bernardi on Twitter says, why do you think she left that in doubt for so long?

这是否近乎一种自负，让她无法想象除了自己之外还有别人能当君主？

Is that a kind of egotism almost, that she can't conceive of anybody other than herself as monarch?

我认为答案非常简单，因为伊丽莎白自己告诉了我们，而且这个说法站得住脚。

I think the answer is very simple, because Elizabeth told it to us, and it does hold water.

她曾说，她在姐姐玛丽统治期间的经历对她观点的形成产生了深远影响，因为当玛丽姐姐病重时，人们开始纷纷转向伊丽莎白，认为她是最可能的继承人，完全将注意力从玛丽身上转移，所有人的目光都聚焦在未来的女王身上，而非当时的在位女王。

And and what she said was that what she'd experienced during her half sister Mary's reign was very profound in shaping her view, because when her sister Mary dying, people started to flock to Elizabeth as being the most likely heir, and they completely shifted their focus away from Mary, and certainly all of the eyes were on the future Queen, not on the present Queen.

这不仅仅是自负，我认为伊丽莎白希望保持控制权，不愿过早指明继承人。

It's not just egotism, I think Elizabeth wanted to retain control, and she didn't want to name her successor too early.

她曾给出过一些暗示，但从未明确确认苏格兰国王詹姆斯六世——她最亲近的血亲——会成为继承人。

She gave hints, but she never went so far as to confirm that it would be the King of Scots, James the sixth, who was her closest blood relative.

尽管她的父亲亨利八世实际上曾排除了苏格兰后裔的继承权，但我们往往忽略了这一事实。

Although her father Henry the eighth had actually barred his Scottish descendants, we tend to overlook that fact.

而且，特蕾西，她并不在意王位将不再由都铎家族继承。

And it doesn't bother her, Tracey, that it's not going be a Tudor.

我的意思是，如果这真让亨利如此困扰，那王位必须由都铎家族继承。

I mean, if it had bothered Henry so much, it had to be a Tudor.

当然，因为他的父亲是靠战场上的武力赢得王冠的。

Of course, because his own father had won the crown on the battlefield.

为什么伊丽莎白不担心王朝这么快就终结呢？

Why doesn't that bother Elizabeth that the dynasty is gonna come to an end so quickly?

我认为这确实让她困扰，但伊丽莎白的核心问题在于婚姻，而这正是整个继承问题陷入争议的根本原因——伊丽莎白面临一个两难的选择：要么结婚并留下直系继承人，但那样就必须将权力让渡给丈夫，而她曾说过那句名言：‘这里只能有一个女主人，没有男主人。’

I think it does bother her, but I think the sticking point with Elizabeth is marriage, and I think this really, of course, is why the whole succession is thrown into doubt, because Elizabeth is faced with this impossible choice between marrying and leaving direct heirs, but then either ceding her authority to her husband, and she made that famous remark, I will have but one mistress here and no master.

但你又该选谁做丈夫呢？

But also, who do you choose as a husband?

如果你选一个英国人，就会分裂宫廷，引发派系对立。

If you choose an Englishman, it divides the court, it kind of creates these factions.

如果你选一个外国人，看看她姐姐玛丽的下场吧——她曾说过，英国人憎恨外国人，所以我不能嫁给外国王子。

If you choose a foreigner, well, look how that went for her sister Mary, she wants to remark, the English hate foreigners, so I can't marry a foreign prince.

伊丽莎白就是这样。

They are Elizabeth was.

因此她面临一个无解的困境，根本没有好的或容易的选择。

And so she had this impossible choice, there isn't a good option here or an easy option.

这就是她决定不结婚的原因，也正因如此，继承问题在她统治后期变得如此棘手。

So that's why she decides not to marry, and of course, that's why the succession becomes such a hot potato, particularly in her later reign.