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If you want more from the show, join the rest is history club.
圣诞节快到了，你还可以为你生活中的历史爱好者赠送一年的会员资格作为礼物。
And with Christmas coming, you can also gift a whole year of access to the history lover in your life.
只需访问restishistory.com并点击礼物选项。
Just head to the restishistory.com and click gifts.
大家好，欢迎收听'余下皆历史'，这个能区分瘟疫与灾祸的播客节目。
Hello, and welcome to the rest is history, the podcast that knows its plague from its pestilence.
你知道吗？
Do you know?
我是在照着稿子念呢。
I'm reading that from script.
基本上，瘟疫就是灾祸，对吧？
Basically, plague is pestilence, isn't it?
不过无所谓啦。
But whatever.
好的。
Okay.
总之，继续吧。
Anyway, moving on.
我是汤姆·霍兰德。
I'm Tom Holland.
我是一名古代史学家。
I'm a historian of the ancient world.
我是多米尼克·桑布鲁克，研究现代史的历史学家。
And I am Dominic Sambrook, historian of the moderns.
汤姆，这个介绍真是天衣无缝。
Tom, that introduction was seamless.
完美。
Perfect.
开头很顺利，希望我们能继续保持。
Beginning is I hope we carry on.
今天我们要探讨的问题是：关于瘟疫或疫情（随你怎么称呼），雕像被砸，政府几乎将圣诞节视为一个庄严屈辱的时刻。
Today, what we're gonna ask is, what with pestilence or plague, depending what you wanna call it, statue smashing, the government on the verge of treating Christmas as a time of solemn humiliation.
我们是否正经历着一个十七世纪的时刻？
Are we living through a seventeenth century moment?
我们很快就会详细展开这个话题。
So we'll tease that out very shortly.
不过在此之前，我们收到了关于前两期节目的一些有趣来信。
But before that, we've had some interesting correspondence following our first two episodes.
确实如此，汤姆。
We have indeed, Tom.
我们的第一期节目，你可能还记得，是关于伟大这个话题的。
So our first episode, as you may remember, was about greatness.
我们当时问为什么，汤姆，除了... 我们现在已经没有伟人了。
And we asked why, Tom, apart, we don't have any great people anymore.
现在我们有大英帝国驻卢加什的大使，这真是对《粉红豹》系列的绝妙致敬。
We had now the British ambassador to Lugash, that is a splendid return of the pink panther reference there.
英国驻卢格什大使联系表示，他认为你们可能低估了习近平。
The British ambassador to Lugash got in touch to say he says, I think you may have underplayed Xi.
他将推动完成的发展与变革轨迹，恰恰是获得'伟大'标签的标准。
The arc of development and change he will see to fruition is not is exactly what gets the great tag.
我不是说这一定正确，但中国已进入现代化并重获自尊。
I'm not saying it's right, but China has entered modernity and regained self regard.
其中的弊端会被粉饰，西方应得的赞誉也会被忽略。
The evils will be glossed over as will the credit due to the West.
实际上，这种说法有很多真实之处。
Actually, there's a lot of truth in that.
我认为习近平在中国人的集体记忆中将作为一位伟大的领导人。
Think Xi Jinping will go down in Chinese sort of memory as a great leader.
但他会被称作'伟大'吗？
But will be called will he be called Xi the the great thing?
我是说，这这
I mean, that's that's
在中文里，他或许会被尊称为伟人？
Will he be well, in Chinese, maybe he will.
是啊。
Yeah.
嗯，我是说，你知道的，我们在节目里提到过这是希腊的传统。
Well, it's I mean, it's it's you know, we we we said yet in in the episode that it's a Greek thing.
很巧的是，HypatiaCassandra2020留言建议说，我认为必须是个征服者或至少是统一者才能获此称号。
And so very suitably we have something from HypatiaCassandra2020 who suggests, I think you have to be a conqueror or at least a unifier.
埃尔多安肯定想要这个头衔，毕竟他埋葬了凯末尔主义并带回了更奥斯曼化的思维，但我不认为后世会授予他。
Erdogan would certainly like the title since he buried Ataturkism and brought back a more Ottoman mindset, but I don't think posterity would give it to him.
嗯，我想这取决于他是否能征服维也纳。
Well, I I guess it depends if he conquers Vienna.
我们得——
We'll have to
我们得——
we'll have
等着瞧吧。
to wait and see.
是啊。
Yeah.
不过，他他他确实有这种自我认知，不是吗？
Well, he he he has the self image though, doesn't he?
伟人都是这样。
As great people do.
自视为伟人，这往往就成功了一半。
Believes himself to be great, and that's often half the battle.
我们收到的其他建议还有女王和吉米·安德森。
Anyway, other suggestions we had, the Queen and Jimmy Anderson.
我猜这两个都来自犹他州吧。
I assume they were both from both from Utah.
我我完全同意关于吉米·安德森的看法。
I I completely agree about Jimmy Anderson.
是啊。
Yeah.
而格雷厄姆·伯顿以这个直白的提议胜出——'鲍里斯是个大蠢货'。
And Graham Burton wins this one with the very straightforward suggestion, Boris the great big idiot.
马丁·布莱特——这位杰出记者曾在电影《官方机密》中由马特·史密斯饰演——提到1999年左右有位海军上将与他共进午餐时说：'给我一支民兵和一家报社，我明天就能挑起英格兰和苏格兰的内战'。
Martin Bright, the distinguished journalist who who was played by Matt Smith in the film Official Secrets, said that an admiral an admiral had a a long lunch with him around 1999 and said, give me a militia and my own newspaper, and I could provoke a civil war between England and Scotland tomorrow.
我觉得现在干这事可比1999年容易多了。
I guess that would actually be quite a lot easier now than it was in 1999.
谁没幻想过拥有自己的民兵组织和报社呢？
Which of us hasn't dreamed of having his own militia and his own newspaper?
我懂。
I know.
要是我中了彩票，这两件事我立马就办——买下《奇平诺顿广告报》，再组建自己的小分队，谁知道呢？
I mean, if I won the lottery, that's two things I would immediately, you know, I'd buy the chipping Norton advertiser and set up my own branch of some guy, who knows?
没错。
Yeah.
你你有点
You you kind of
想要自己的民兵组织对吧，汤姆？
want your own militia, don't you, Tom?
是啊。
Yeah.
当然。
Of course.
没错，
Yeah,
砖头防御部队。
Bricks to defense force.
对。
Yes.
我会先组建砖头部队，然后是南伦敦分队。
I'd I'd start with Bricks and then the next South London.
然后从那里开始，我会逐步向外扩展，
And from there, I'd I'd gradually move out,
最终将会是全世界。
and it would be the world.
在我们继续之前，约翰·兹米拉克还有一点要补充。
Well, we have, one other point from, John Zmirak before we move on.
他说，这是个非常棒的播客。
He says, an excellent podcast.
他的判断力真是出色。
What a fine judge he is.
我建议汤姆考虑一下是否...
I would suggest that Tom consider whether yeah.
汤姆，考虑一下像纳尔逊·曼德拉这样的人提出的道德优越主张，是否只是另一种宣示权力的方式。
Tom, consider whether the moral claims to greatness filed by the like of Nelson Mandela are just a different means of asserting power.
是的。
Yes.
我是说，圣徒身份传统上是一种权力来源，但并非亚历山大那种意义上的权力。
I mean, sainthood traditionally was a source of of of power, but not, I think, power in the the kind of Alexander the Great, sense.
总之，感谢大家对这些关于伟大概念的评论。
So anyway, thanks for all those, comments on the the idea of greatness.
在第二集中，我们探讨了现代工业国家发生内战所需的条件。
In episode two, we wondered about the conditions required for a civil war to take place in a modern industrial country.
名字相当威武的威斯克将军就提到了美国，他说：'想看看当前美国红蓝州如何能正式分裂我们，但以当前所谓的领导力来看，这并非不可能。'
The splendidly named General Whiskers got in touch with regard to The US and said, Triggy to see how the current red and blue states of The USA could divide us formally, but with current so called leadership it is possible.
中央州与边缘州的对峙，这个设想很有意思。
Central states versus peripheral states, an interesting scenario.
我确实看到过一种观点，红州或许想脱离并组建自己的国家，蓝州或许可以加入加拿大。
I did see one idea that the that the the red states might want to break off and form their own country, the blue states could perhaps join Canada.
是啊。
Yeah.
这确实不现实，但并非不可能，对吧？
It's it's it's unrealistic, but not impossible, isn't it?
我是说，这在我看来完全不现实。
I mean, that's how seems completely unrealistic to me.
但如果你要想象美国在未来，比如说未来一百年内的噩梦场景。
But if you were gonna imagine a nightmare scenario for The US in the next let's say, the next hundred years.
大概等到你我都不在人世，但我们的孩子们还活着的时候
So maybe when you and I are dead, but when our children
所以肯尼，我...是啊。
So you Kenny, I Yeah.
我在预测一些事情，但我
I'm predicting something, but I'm
会在
gonna happen at
内心深处，但等我死后。
heart, but when I'm dead.
我相当确信到时候我就不用为此负责了。
I'm pretty confident that I won't be hard to account for it.
我非常确信分裂是完全不可能想象的。
I'm pretty confident utterly implausible to imagine secession.
对吧？
Right?
或者想象某种
Or to imagine some kind
州政府不再听从联邦政府指令的情况。
of situation where you have the state governments no longer taking direction from the federal government.
而且它
And it
有点，我是说，你
kind of I mean, you
在美国体制中经常看到这种对峙局面。
have these standoffs in the American system all the time.
现在的情况是这种根深蒂固的分裂，不是吗？沿海与内陆之间，中心地带与自由主义都市边缘之间的对立。
What you've got right now is this entrenched division, don't you, between the coasts and the center, between the heartland and the kind of liberal metropolitan fringes.
你看，这就是当前选举的非凡之处——尽管过去四年风风雨雨，特朗普的支持基础依然如此稳固。
And you see that I mean, that's the extraordinary thing about this election right now is that despite the last four years, Donald Trump's support has been so resilient.
这些人现在肯定会说选举结果被窃取了，诸如此类的言论。
And these are people who, you know, now are gonna say that the election was stolen from him and all the rest of it.
所以这些分裂不会轻易消失。
So, you know, those divisions are not gonna go away.
我的意思是，这确实非常、非常不现实。
And it's not entirely I mean, okay, it's it's very, very unrealistic.
但怪事时有发生。
But strange things happen.
你真的认为加拿大会吞并吗？
Do you really think that Canada would would annex?
是啊。
Yeah.
英属北美地区的重建。
The the restoration of British North America.
这基本上就是我生活的意义。
I mean, that's basically what I live for.
而且，是的。
And, yes.
所以英国在北美的影响力，确实如此。
And so so British English engagement in North America, really Yeah.
大约在十七世纪开始显现，对吧，多米尼克？
Kind of kicks in in the seventeenth century, doesn't it, Dominic?
这使得我们能够投入其中。
Which enables us to commit.
那实际上是无缝衔接的。
That that that that's actually seamless.
天衣无缝。
Seamlessly.
那就是无缝的。
That is seamless.
是的。
Yes.
没错。
Yes.
那么现在该把注意力转向本周的主题了：瘟疫与灾祸、雕像破坏、圣诞节的肃穆氛围、内战、阴谋，诸如此类。
So it's time to turn our attention to this week's subject, pestilence and plague, statue bashing, solemnity at Christmas, civil war, plots, all the rest of it.
汤姆·霍兰德，我们是否真的在重返十七世纪？
Tom Holland, are we actually returning to the seventeenth century?
首先，给我们大致描述一下。
Well, first of all, give us some sense.
很多人并不了解，也不清楚我们在讨论什么，所以请给我们讲讲当时发生了什么。
A lot of people don't know you know, won't know what we're talking about, so give us some sense of what happened.
好的。
Okay.
最精彩的部分。
Greatest hit.
伊丽莎白一世去世了。
Elizabeth first dies.
她由苏格兰的詹姆斯六世继位。
She gets succeeded by James the sixth of Scotland.
这位斯图亚特国王成为了英格兰的詹姆斯一世。
Stuart King, who becomes James the first of England.
他的儿子查理一世继位，留着尖尖的胡子和引人注目的小胡子。
He is succeeded by his son, Charles the first, who has a a pointy beard and a sensational moustache.
他们
They
最终导致英格兰、苏格兰以及同样由斯图亚特王朝统治的爱尔兰陷入内战。
end up England, Scotland, Ireland as well, which the Stuart monarchy rules, implodes into a civil war.
查理一世被斩首。
Charles the first has his head chopped off.
在奥利弗·克伦威尔领导下建立了护国公时期。
Protectorate is established under Oliver Cromwell.
克伦威尔去世。
Cromwell dies.
查理一世之子查理二世复辟。
Charles the first son, Charles the second, is restored.
1665年伦敦爆发瘟疫。
Plague hits London in 1665.
次年，伦敦发生大火。
The following year, London burns down.
查理二世是个风流君主，与各色人等有染，包括内尔·格温。
Charles the second is a merry monarch, has affairs with all kinds of people, including Nel Gwyn.
他去世了。
He dies.
他的弟弟詹姆斯二世继位，是个天主教徒。
He's replaced by his brother, James the second, who is a Catholic.
这在以新教徒为主的英格兰极不受欢迎，詹姆斯二世最终被驱逐，由荷兰人威廉取代。
This is not popular with massive majority Protestant England, who James the second ends up getting chased out, is replaced by William, who is a Dutchman.
这实质上确立了一种模式，随后在安妮女王的统治下延续至十八世纪。
And, this essentially establishes a kind of model that then goes through under the reign of Queen Anne into the eighteenth century.
讲得好，汤姆。
Good stuff, Tom.
真是场精彩绝伦的表演。
That was a bravura performance.
学生们可以直接拿这段去应付A-level考试了，非常感谢。
People can do their A levels Thank you very much.
在那之后。
After that.
我们就挑其中一个话题深入吧，比如瘟疫，因为它最引人注目。
So let's just go in on one of those things, maybe the plague, because that's the most obvious.
显然我们是在封城第一天聊这个的。
Obviously, we're doing this on the first day of the lockdown.
1665年伦敦瘟疫爆发时，他们其实也实行了封城对吧？
They had a lockdown too in London, didn't they, effectively in 1665 when the plague hit?
是的，宫廷撤退到了牛津，那里有个最有趣的细节。
Yes, and the court retreats to Oxford, where the most entertaining detail.
住在牛津的古文物研究者安东尼·伍德报告说，他们驻扎在牛津的各个学院等地。
The antiquary Anthony Wood, who lived in Oxford, reports that they camped out in the various Oxford colleges and so on.
当宫廷后来离开，瘟疫结束后，人们搬回去发现朝臣们在住处到处留下了粪便。
And when the court then left, when the plague had ended, people moved back in and discovered that the courtiers had left turds all over their accommodation.
真恶心。
Nasty.
典型的牛津做派，非常
And Oxford behavior, Very
恶心又粗野，安东尼·伍德这么评价。
nasty and beastly, Anthony Wood says.
是啊。
Yeah.
而且有这么多有趣的相似之处，对吧？
And there's so many funny parallels, aren't there?
我正在读塞缪尔·佩皮斯的日记。
So I was reading Samuel Pepys' diary.
佩皮斯——很多人都知道——是十七世纪六十年代查理二世复辟时期记录伦敦生活的杰出日记作者。
Pepys, as many people will know, is this guy who writes this fantastic diary during the sixteen sixties of of Charles the second's restoration and life in London and so on.
佩皮斯提到他不想买假发。
And Pepys sort of says things like, know, he doesn't want to get a wig.
他不想买新假发是因为他担心假发会携带病菌。
He doesn't want to get a new wig because he fears it will basically be sort of Infected.
对，就是那种被污染的感觉。
Suffused with yeah.
担心假发会感染 .
Infected with plague virus.
他说他很好奇会有多少人因为害怕感染而去买假发。
And he says, I he wonders how many people are gonna be getting wigs because they'll be so worried that they're infected.
这就像现在人们给快递消毒一样——当人们对疫情感到恐慌时就会做出各种防护行为。
And that's just like, you know, people disinfecting their post or whatever it is people do when they're very alarmed about getting COVID.
是啊。
Yeah.
我认为，显然，瘟疫与灾祸贯穿了英国的历史。
I think, I mean, obviously, plague and pestilence has swept Britain across history.
在这次疫情期间我们已听闻了太多相关故事。
We've heard all about them over the experience of this current pandemic.
但我觉得十七世纪应对瘟疫和灾难的经历有个有趣之处——它与人们对气候变化的感知相关联。
But I think that one of the things that is interesting about the seventeenth century experience of plague and catastrophes generally is that it's linked to a sense of climate change.
所以这在今天又形成了一种有趣的呼应。
So that is a kind of interesting parallel again today.
没错。
Right.
因为这是小冰河期时期，对吧？
Because this is the period of the Little Ice Age, isn't it?
当时气温下降了约一度，整个欧洲普遍如此。
So temperatures dropped, I think, by about a degree, about a generally across Europe.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
著名历史学家杰弗里·帕克有本杰作《全球危机》，他将英国经历内战、陷入分裂的疫情体验，置于气候变化的大背景下进行解读。
And there's some fantastic book by the great historian Jeffrey Parker, Global Crisis, where he puts the experience of Britain, the implosion of Britain into civil war, the experience of pandemic against this backdrop of climate change.
他以完全全球化的视角展开论述，追踪到世界各地在这一时期都经历了革命、战争与崩溃的灾难性阶段。
And he puts it in an entirely global perspective and kind of traces the sense that across the entire world, this is a devastating period of revolution, of war, of collapse.
是啊。
Yeah.
未来的历史学家是否会回顾二十一世纪初，认为我们正在经历的动荡是由气候变化驱动的，这点我不得而知。
And and and whether future historians will look back at the early twenty first century and say that the convulsions that that we're living through were driven by climate change, I don't know.
但这种相似性确实耐人寻味。
But it's kind of it is an interesting parallel.
但这种相似性也令人毛骨悚然。
But it's a terrifying parallel.
对吧，汤姆？
Right, Tom?
因为我读过那本书。
Because I've read that book.
那本书大约有6000页那么厚。
It's about 6,000 pages long.
我是说，这简直是部鸿篇巨制。
I mean, just a colossal book.
他在书中指出，十七世纪欧洲大部分地区的人口实际上减少了约三分之一。
And in that book, he he points out that in much of Europe, the population in the seventeenth century actually dropped by about a third.
在德国，人口减少了一半。
In Germany, it fell by half.
当时的德国正处于三十年战争期间。
So in Germany, you've got the thirty years war going on.
整个德国乡村到处都有人在遭受谋杀、强奸、屠杀和酷刑。
People are being kind of murdered, raped, butchered, tortured, left, right, and center in villages all across Germany.
试想一下，基本上每两个人中就有一人死去，你就能体会到那个世纪在人们心理上留下的巨大文化创伤。
And if you think, you know, one in every two people basically dies, you get a sense of the sort of the massive cultural scar that that century left on people's sort of psyche.
正因如此，我认为不仅研究我们时代与十七世纪的相似之处很有趣，对比两者的差异也同样重要——因为我觉得这能让人振作起来。
Well, that's why I thought that it would be interesting to to look not only at the parallels of our present age with the seventeenth century, but also the contrast because I thought that that would cheer people up.
尽管当前局势可能看起来很糟糕，但远不及当年那般惨烈。
Because terrible though things may seem at the moment, they're not as bad as they were.
当然，我们经历的COVID疫情与1665年伦敦大瘟疫相比根本不值一提。
And and, of course, you know, our experience of of of COVID is as nothing compared to London's experience of of of plague in 1665.
我记得1665年伦敦约有十万人丧生。
About a hundred thousand people, I think, died in London in 1665.
这相当于当时四分之一的人口。
That's about a quarter of the population.
而且你知道，到处都是关于尸体被扔进瘟疫坑之类的故事。
And, you know, there's all these stories about bodies being dumped in plague pits and all the rest of it.
我们还没沦落到那种境地，对吧？
We can't we're not in that situation, are we?
我们确实没有陷入那种境地。
We we are not in that situation.
当然，尽管我们现在可能觉得国家充斥着分裂，但这些分裂远不及十七世纪困扰英国的那些。
And and, of course, although we may feel now that, the country is riven with divisions, they are nothing like the divisions that afflicted Britain over the course of the seventeenth century.
特别是在1665年伦敦大瘟疫之前的几十年，即1640年代和50年代，英格兰、苏格兰以及威尔士确实被惨烈的内战所蹂躏。
And of course, particularly in the decades that had preceded the plague of London in 1665, so over the course of the 1640s and '50s, when England was and Scotland too, and Wales was really ravaged by by by violent civil war.
我是说，从致命程度来看，确实如此。
I mean, on a on a kind of lethal scale, think, kind of Yeah.
我认为按人口比例计算，十七世纪四十年代内战的死亡人数超过了两次世界大战中的任何一次。
I think more people died in the civil wars of the sixteen forties per head than died in either of the world wars.
这足以说明一切。
I mean, that tells you, you know, all you need to know.
但你知道吗，汤姆？
But you know what, Tom?
说到这些分裂。
Talking about the divisions.
我认为一个引人入胜的相似之处在于，这些分裂在多大程度上是由技术和新媒体驱动的。
Something that I think is a fascinating parallel is the extent to which the divisions are driven by technology and new media.
在十七世纪，有印刷机、小册子，还有报纸的真正诞生。
So in the seventeenth century, you have the printing press, you have pamphlets, you have the birth of newspapers, really.
人们阅读这些极具煽动性的报纸，上面讲述着新教徒在欧洲遭受的暴行，或天主教徒据称在爱尔兰犯下的暴行，这某种程度上煽动着他们陷入狂热。
So people are reading these incredibly inflammatory newspapers saying them about atrocities that Protestants are suffering in Europe or that Catholics are supposedly carrying out in Ireland, and this is sort of whipping them up into a frenzy.
真的，这与人们因推特、脸书等平台上的虚假信息和错误信息而被煽动起来的狂热程度，又有何不同呢？
And really, is that so different from the extent to which people are whipped up to into a frenzy by false information, misinformation on Twitter and Facebook and and all the rest of it.
这是一个像我们一样，努力应对信息爆炸的社会。
It's a society struggling to to manage an explosion of information as we are.
而且，我想，我们所谓的传统媒体正被替代新闻来源所取代，而你非常
And also, have you have, I guess, what what we would call the mainstream media being replaced by alternative news sources, and you very
十七世纪的主流媒体中有多少是这样的？
What's much have that in the mainstream media in the seventeenth century?
嗯，我想主流媒体就是那些获得许可的小册子
Well, I suppose the mainstream media is is is pamphlets that are licensed
对。
Right.
由王室授权。
By the Crown.
当然，随着王室权威的崩塌——尤其是在伦敦——到1650年代彻底瓦解时，确实出现了这场惊人的信息爆炸。
And, of course, as as the Crown's authority, particularly in London, collapses and then goes completely in the sixteen fifties, you do have this incredible explosion.
而对此大加赞颂的著名人物就是约翰·弥尔顿。
And the man who famously celebrates this is John Milton.
那位诗人。
The poet.
这位诗人，《失乐园》的作者，在英联邦时期担任克伦威尔的秘书，也是处决查理一世最著名的国际辩护者。
The poet, author of Paradise Lost, secretary to Cromwell during the Commonwealth, the most prominent international defender of the execution of Charles I.
从某种意义上说，他是克伦威尔政权的宣传主管。
So in a sense, the chief of propaganda for Cromwell's regime.
但他完全推崇这种'百花齐放'的理念。
But he completely celebrates this idea, let a million flowers bloom.
是啊。
Yeah.
完全的言论自由。
Freedom of speech completely.
但当然，就像我们现在一样，人们开始说，哦，我不确定我们是否想让这类内容传播出来。
But, of course, people rather as we do now, people start saying, oh, I'm not actually sure whether we want this kind of stuff coming out.
我认为我们需要尝试控制它，尝试规范它。
I think we need to try and try and rein it in, try and regulate it.
所以他们和我们一样经历了这场言论自由的斗争。
So they have this whole freedom of speech battle as we do.
对吧？
Right?
我是说，这对他们来说是个大问题。
I mean, this is a big issue for
他们。
them.
我想这是旧秩序试图压制新技术发展，针对日益增长的文盲人口。
Is it I suppose it's an old order trying to put a lid on new technological development on a growing illiterate population.
这是否公平？但这也关乎信仰和公开表达内容的爆炸式增长，因为内战部分涉及宗教问题。
Is that Is that a fair Yeah, but it s also about the explosion of what it is possible to believe and to express publicly because part of what the civil war is about is religious.
如果你生活在一个虔诚的基督教国家——17世纪的英格兰无疑就是如此——那么人们对宗教的言论就至关重要。
And if you live in a devoutly Christian country, which England certainly was in the seventeenth century, then what people are saying about religion matters hugely.
但很多人会对此感到困惑，不是吗？
But a lot of people will be baffled by that, won't they?
因为我记得我研究17世纪时非常热爱这段历史。
Because I remember when I did you know, I loved the seventeenth century.
我高中时选修过这门课，还记得大约十年前和一家大型出版社的编辑聊天。
I did it for A level, but I can remember talking to an an editor at a very big publishing house about ten years ago.
我告诉他17世纪多么精彩，他却说没人会买关于17世纪的书，因为那段历史完全令人费解。
And I was telling him how brilliant the seventeenth century was, he said, nobody ever buys books in the seventeenth century because it's all completely baffling.
全都是关于祭坛摆放位置的争论。
It's all about the placement of the altar.
而且，你知道，
And, you know, are
你被允许拥有圣徒画像吗？
you allowed to have pictures of saints?
还有，你被允许——人们正在互相残杀，争论牧师该穿什么法衣或该用什么祈祷书。
And and are you allowed is a priest people are killing each other about what vestments a priest should wear or whatever or what prayer book they use.
对许多人来说，这完全令人困惑。
To a lot of people, that's completely baffling.
是的。
Yes.
我我同意。
I I I agree.
我认为这就是为什么我说，人们对其他历史时期更感兴趣，因为它们似乎不那么令人困惑。
And I think that that's why I say, you know, there's much greater interest in other periods of history that seem to be less baffling.
但我真的认为十七世纪很重要。
But I really think the seventeenth century does matter.
宗教之所以重要，是因为它关乎人们对国家未来走向的根本认知。
Religion matters because it's fundamental to people's sense of where the country is going.
如果你对上帝的旨意怀有强烈信念，那么对17世纪中叶的大多数人来说，确保全国上下都信奉这一信念至关重要。
And if you have a passionate sense of what God wants, then it's important for most people in the middle of the seventeenth century that everybody in the country subscribes to that.
否则，上帝的怒火将降临这个国家。
Because if they don't, the wrath of God will descend on the country.
因此，关于国家教会应当如何、民众应信奉何种教义的问题具有极其重大的意义。
And so therefore, the question of what the national church should be, what beliefs people subscribe to, is hugely significant.
在1650年代国王被处决、护国公政体建立后，这种共识开始逐渐瓦解。
And part of what happens over the course of the 1650s after the execution of the king, the establishment of the protectorate, is that that understanding starts to fragment.
越来越多的宗教团体开始认为，全国是否与你持相同信仰其实并不重要。
And you get increasing numbers of religious groups who come to feel that it doesn't actually matter whether the whole country believes what you think.
重要的是某种程度的良心自由，即表达宗教观点的自由。
What matters is a kind of freedom of conscience, a freedom to express your religious views.
从某种意义上说，这其实是在展望未来的方向。
And in a sense, you know, that is looking forward to the future.
这最终将是这个国家的归宿。
That is where, ultimately, the country will end up.
不错。
Nice.
好的。
Alright.
完美。
Perfect.
适合短暂休息的地方。
Place to take a short break.
待我们回来后，将回答大家关于17世纪方方面面的问题。
When And we return, we can be answering some of your questions on the subject of everything so seventeenth century.
你好。
Hello.
我是汉娜·弗莱教授。
I'm professor Hannah Fry.
我是Michael Stevens，Vsauce频道的创始人。
And I'm Michael Stevens, creator of Vsauce.
我们想不请自来地加入你们一会儿。
We thought we would join you for a moment completely uninvited.
我们不会停留太久。
We are not gonna stay too long.
当然，除非你们希望我们留下。
Unless you want us to, of course.
我们来是为了告诉大家我们的全新节目。
We're here to tell you about our brand new show.
《剩余的科学》。
The rest is science.
每期节目都会从看似熟悉的事物开始，然后我们会层层剖析，直到你完全认不出它原本的样子。
Every episode is gonna start with something that feels initially familiar, and then we're gonna unpick it and tear it apart until you no longer recognize it at all.
你知道香蕉味的食品尝起来并不像真正的香蕉吗？
You know how banana flavor doesn't taste like bananas?
是啊。
Yeah.
这是怎么回事呢？
What is that about?
它本应尝起来像一种在香蕉末日中灭绝的古老香蕉品种。
So it is supposed to taste like an old species of banana that was wiped out in a banana apocalypse.
而现在你只能在植物收藏中见到它了
And now you will only find it in botanical collections in
亿万富翁的花园。
the gardens of billionaires.
哇。
Wow.
香蕉糖其实是早已灭绝的香蕉的幽灵。
Banana candy is actually the ghost of a long extinct banana.
所以如果你喜欢浅尝辄止、深入思考或更奇怪的东西。
So if you like scratching the surface, thinking a little bit deeper Or weirder.
是的。
Yes.
当然也包括那个。
Definitely that too.
每周二和周四，你可以在任何收听播客的地方加入迈克尔和我的节目。
You can join Michael and I every Tuesday and Thursday wherever you get your podcasts.
欢迎回到《余下皆历史》。
Welcome back to the rest is history.
如果你喜欢我们的节目，请订阅、评分并留下评论，也可以通过推特联系我们，提出你的意见、问题、批评和更正。
Do please subscribe, rate, and review the pod if you've enjoyed it, and get in touch with us on Twitter with your comments, questions, abuse, and corrections.
这条留言来自乔纳森·希利，他的推特账号是‘社会历史狐狸’。
This one is from Jonathan Healy, who tweets as social history fox.
我记得他过去曾在推特上抨击过我，不过算了，我们就不提这事了。
I believe he slapped me off on Twitter in the past, but anyway, we'll let that go.
非常
A very a
一位非常、非常杰出的十七世纪历史学家，而且在推特上非常活跃的多米尼克，所以说话要小心。
very, very distinguished historian of the seventeenth century and very active on Twitter, Dominic, so be careful what you say.
我以为你
I thought you
有一瞬间我以为你在说我，直到你提到十七世纪。
were I thought you were talking about me for a second until you mentioned the seventeenth century.
请注意他说我们还有一位统治者与主教团起了冲突，我。
Note that he says that we also have a ruler who has picked a fight with the episcopacy, I.
即，主教们。
E, bishops.
他与苏格兰关系紧张，现在又禁止了盖伊·福克斯骑士。
He has a problematic relationship with Scotland and has now banned Guy Fawkes Knight.
他到底在说谁呢？汤姆·霍兰德？
Who on earth could he be talking about Tom Holland?
所以我认为他是在将鲍里斯·约翰逊与詹姆斯二世相提并论，后者对天主教君主做了那些事，显然对盖伊·福克斯骑士很不满。
So there he is, I think comparing Boris Johnson to James II, who did all those things to the Catholic monarch who obviously was not very happy about Guy Fawkes Knight.
那么鲍里斯是谁呢？
So who is Boris?
我是说，鲍里斯确实像个十七世纪的人物，不是吗？
I mean, Boris does seem quite a seventeenth century figure, isn't he?
粗野喧闹，有点不可靠，实际上非常不可靠，有人可能会这么说。
Rumbustious, kind of boisterous, slightly unreliable, indeed very unreliable, some might say.
他到底是谁？
Who who is he?
嗯，查理二世？
Well, I Charles the second?
是的。
Yes.
我是说，当他接替特蕾莎·梅上台时——梅是那种著名的圆颅党式人物，严肃务实——他的崇拜者们曾以为他会成为一位欢乐君主，整天和卖橙女郎厮混，剧院重新开放，到处都是戴着皱领、穿着丝绸的骑士们寻欢作乐。
I mean, when when he came in after Theresa May, who was a kind of famously round head kind of figure, sober and doer, I think there was a feeling on the part of his admirers that he was going to be a kind of merry monarch, and he'd be hanging out with orange sellers and the theaters would be open and there'd be cavaliers and ruffs and silks roistering and doistering.
但过去一年的经历证明，他基本上变成了奥利弗·克伦威尔。
But of course, the experience of the past year, he's basically turned into Oliver Cromwell.
他四处奔走，禁止一切活动，否决各种提议。
He's just rushed around banning everything and turning things down.
不过值得一提的是，人们普遍认为克伦威尔曾禁止过圣诞节。
Although important to say, of course, famously that that people think Cromwell banned Christmas.
所以禁止圣诞节这件事很有意思，不是吗？
So the banning Christmas is interesting, isn't it?
他们确实在某种程度上禁止了圣诞节，因为清教徒们在1640和1650年代认为，圣诞节不该充满欢乐、礼物和胡吃海喝。
So they they kind of did ban Christmas because they didn't think the Puritans, this is, in sixteen forties and sixteen fifties, because they thought that Christmas shouldn't be all about jollity and and presents and sort of stuffing yourself with chocolate.
圣诞节应该是对基督神性的静默沉思之类的。
It should actually be about silent contemplation of the divinity of Christ or whatever.
是这样吗？
Is that right?
他们不赞成放纵肉体和感官的享乐。
They they they were not in favor of giving liberty to carnal and sensual delights.
没错。
Right.
当然，这几乎就是鲍里斯·约翰逊的写照，对吧，
Which which, of course, is pretty much what Boris Johnson is about, which is Well,
他是什么？
he is what?
他追求的就是肉体欢愉。
He is about carnal delights.
他沉迷于肉体和感官的享乐，不是吗？
He is about carnal and sensual delights, isn't he?
我觉得这非常符合他的风格。
I think that's very much his kind of shtick.
顺便说一句，是的，他关闭商店并告诉人们不能聚集玩乐，这有点
Which is By why the way, yes, that he's kind of closing down shops and telling people that they can't gather and have fun, is kind of
真是巨大的转变。
quite the transformation.
但克伦威尔本人有个奇怪的现象，人们认为他非常阴郁，认为克伦威尔就是特蕾莎·梅。
But Cromwell himself there's this weird thing, isn't it, that people think Cromwell was terribly dour and that Cromwell was Theresa May.
然而克伦威尔本人实际上是个相当快活的人物。
And yet Cromwell himself actually was a much more jolly figure.
我是说，有关于他在女儿婚礼上的故事，你知道的，跳舞玩得很开心。我觉得克伦威尔是个很会找乐子的人。
I mean, there's sort of stories about him at his daughter's wedding, you know, dancing and having great I think of Cromwell as a great laugh.
总之他
Anyway He
也很热爱音乐。
loved his music as well.
热爱音乐。
Loved his music.
是啊。
Yeah.
我们这里还有另一个问题。
We've got another question here.
休·伯恩提问：关于取消圣诞节的主题，你能谈谈奥利弗·克伦威尔是英雄还是恶人吗？
Hugh Bourne says, on the theme of cancelling Christmas, can you talk about Oliver Cromwell hero or villain?
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我一直觉得理查德·哈里斯把他演绎得相当引人入胜。
I always thought Richard Harris made him quite compelling.
你看过那部电影吗，汤姆？
You've seen that film, Tom?
理查德·哈里斯饰演克伦威尔那部？
Richard Harris playing Cromwell?
看过。
Yes.
很多年前了。
Years ago.
还有亚历克·吉尼斯
And that's Alec Guinness
亚历克·查尔斯·吉尼斯把查理一世演得真是出神入化。
as Alec Charles Guinness is a brilliant Charles the first, actually.
是啊。
Yeah.
在我一生中，有两位伟大的查理一世。
There have been two great Charles the firsts in my lifetime.
亚历克·吉尼斯和彼得·卡帕尔迪在电视上扮演过他们。
Alec Guinness and Peter Capaldi played them on telly.
是的。
Yes.
他演得非常出色，确实。
He was very good, Yes.
不是吗
Wasn't
确实非常出色。
was very good.
是的，他演得确实好。
Yes, he was.
是的。
Yes.
他是他们中最出色的，某种程度上带有左翼宣传性质，我记得主要是关于约翰·利尔伯恩和平等派的内容。
He was the best they had the sort of it was sort of agitprop lefty kind of it was all about John Lilburn, as I remember, and the Levellers.
而彼得·卡帕尔迪抢尽了风头，某种程度上是在模仿亚历克·吉尼斯扮演塔兹一世。
And Peter Capaldi stole the show, sort of channeling Alec Guinness playing Taz the first.
嗯，关于这个话题，当然，还有一个有趣的相似之处，就是平等派，他们当时的思想非常激进，你知道的，普选权之类的。
Well, on the topic of that, of course, that's another intriguing parallel, is the levelers, people who had very radical for for the time, very kind of, you know, universal suffrage, all that kind of stuff.
所以他们算是17世纪的科尔巴尼斯塔斯派？
So they're sort of the they're the sort of korbanistas of the seventeenth century?
嗯，或者更准确地说，是贝尼特斯们，因为作为托尼·本的狂热崇拜者，你会知道托尼·本带着极大的兴奋感发现了平等派。
Well, or or more specifically the Benites, because you as a huge admirer of Tony Ben will know that that that, that Tony Ben kind of discovered the levellers with a huge sense of excitement.
在托尼·本自己的认知里，之前根本没人听说过他们，直到
Tony Ben's own mind, no one had ever heard of them until
我没有发现他...托尼·本某种程度上将奥利弗·克伦威尔比作哈罗德·威尔逊，这似乎
I Didn't discovered he he Tony Ben kind of he he he compared Oliver Cromwell to Harold Wilson, which seems
不。
No.
呵呵呵，是的。
He he he yes.
他说过，'我是二十世纪七十年代的平等派'。
He said he said, I'm the leveler of the nineteen seventies.
你知道，我是那种为人民而战的英雄，是社会主义新黎明的先知。
You know, I'm this sort of hero who fights for the people and is, you know, the the prophet of the socialist New Dawn.
他还说，'那克伦威尔是谁呢？'
And he says, so who's the Cromwell?
嗯，要么是哈罗德·威尔逊，要么是丹尼斯·希利。
Well, it's either Harold Wilson or Dennis Healy.
我是说，明显是丹尼斯·希利。
I mean, it's clearly Dennis Healy.
这完全是另一码事了。
Anyone who knows any I mean, it's a whole different can of worms.
任何了解七十年代的人都知道，丹尼斯·希利会非常乐意动用军队镇压他的激进反对派。
Anyone who knows anything about the nineteen seventies will know Dennis Healy would have derived great pleasure from using the army to crush his radical opponents.
我是说，我认为这确实凸显了另一个方面，当我们把十七世纪与当今时代相比较时，并不只是些可能略显牵强的类比。
I mean I mean, I think that that kind of does highlight another way in which when we compare the seventeenth century to the the present day, it's not just about kind of maybe faintly tendentious parallels.
它还关乎这种传承脉络的感知。
It's also about this kind of sense of a line of descent.
而这种传承脉络往往相当虚假，但却被人们拾起并深信不疑。
And the line of descent is often quite a bogus one, but it gets picked up by people and believed in it.
迈克尔·富特的父亲艾萨克·富特有句名言：'我想知道一个人会在马斯顿荒原战役中选择哪一方'——那是圆颅党与保皇党、议会与国王之间内战的关键战役之一。
So Michael Foote's father, Isaac Foote famously said that, what I want to know about someone is which side would he have fought on at the Battle of Marston Moor, one of the decisive battles in the civil war between round heads and cavaliers, between parliament and king.
而博览群书的迈克尔·富特本人，则完全认同那种'光荣旧事业'的传承。
And Michael Foote, who was incredibly well read in all this, absolutely identified with that kind of the good old cause, the descends.
作为天生保守、总是倒向胜利者一方的人，我会选择哪边作战呢？
Which I'm side would I have fought a kind of naturally conservative person who always swings round to the victor.
所以我猜自己可能会先为国王而战，然后迅速转向另一边。
So I imagine I would have begun fighting for the king and then swung round very rapidly to fight Right.
为
For
这这很有趣。
That's That's interesting.
我我一直都是我是说，我也是个天性保守的人，但我总觉得自己会是个圆颅党。
I've I've always been I've always I mean, I'm quite a naturally conservative person too, but I always thought I would be a round head.
我是说，我真的有个非常圆的脑袋。
I mean, I I genuinely have a very round head.
哦，这倒是真的。
Oh, there is that.
是的。
So Yes.
对。
Yes.
没错。
Yeah.
你不可能戴那种软塌塌的帽子，因为它根本戴不住
You couldn't have worn one of those floppy hats because it just wouldn't have wouldn't have stayed
但我某种程度上认为自己就是那种人，你知道，我完全支持后来对激进主义的打压，就像克伦威尔那样利用少将们来镇压反对派，把革命的所有乐趣和精神都扼杀掉。
But I sort of see myself as one of those people who, you know, I'd all in favor of the the later crackdown on on radicalism and on, you know, using the the major generals, as Cromwell did, to kind of crush to sort of crush opposition and and to sort of to to take all the fun and spirit out of the revolution.
那就是
That's what
我 那本该是你的专长。
I'm That would have been your thing.
是啊。
Yeah.
绝对的。
Absolutely.
绝对的。
Absolutely.
那种严厉作风，我很喜欢。
The Duauness, I love.
我真的很欣赏那种风格。
I really like that.
我觉得当个保皇党会更有趣。
I think it would have been more fun to be a cavalier.
哦，确实。
Oh, it would.
当然了，肯定会的。
Of course, it would.
但是但是但是
But but but
显然不是在克伦威尔时期，因为那样风险太大。
obviously not during the not not under Cromwell, because then it would be too risky.
不。
No.
你想象自己穿着粗布衣服的样子。
You see yourself wearing a rough.
我觉得我实际上会是个类似布拉夫牧师那样的人物，就是那个以见风使舵著称的布拉夫牧师。
I think I will actually be a kind of vicar of Brave figure who is the vicar of Brave kind of famously swinging with the wind.
所以我想那大概就是我会做的事。
So I think that that's probably what I would have done.
我不认为我会对任何一方的事业有足够强烈的信念，从而采取强硬立场。
I don't think I would have believed in in either cause strongly enough to have taken a strong position on it.
所以你可能会成为——我是说我们之前聊过的那些‘俱乐部人’。
So you'd been one of I mean, we talked about these guys The club men.
上一集提到的。
The last episode.
那些俱乐部人。
The club men.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
所以你，我
So you I
我觉得他们相当——他们看起来相当土气。
I regard them as quite they they seem quite rustic.
没关系。
That's alright.
他们可不会泡在咖啡馆里读那些新潮报纸，对吧？
They're they're not in they're not in coffee houses reading these newfangled newspapers, are they?
不会。
No.
他们主要活动在威尔特郡，那是我老家，他们常在树林里闲逛。
They're centered very much in Wiltshire, which is where I come from, they kind of hang out in woods.
我还挺喜欢在树林里闲逛的。
I quite like hanging out in the wood.
我不知道。
I don't know.
看吧。
See.
我们走着瞧。
We'll see.
不过话说回来，汤姆，我同意你关于异议的严肃观点。
Anyway But I agree with you, Tom, on the serious point about the dissent, by the way.
我认为你可以追溯保守主义与自由主义的发展脉络，后来的保守党与工党，甚至脱欧派与留欧派。
I think you can trace know, conservatism and liberalism, later conservatives and labor, even leave and remain.
我的意思是，虽然有点牵强，但确实能从十七世纪那些激烈冲突中梳理出一条异议传统？
They can I mean, of course, it is a bit spurious, but you can kind of tease out a line of dissent from the great passions of the seventeenth century?
有本杰作你可能很熟悉，剑桥大学教授罗伯特·图姆斯的《英格兰人及其历史》，他是脱欧派学者。
And there's a brilliant book, which you probably know very well, The English and Their History by professor Robert Toombs, who's a Brexiteer and a Cambridge professor.
他的核心论点是英国政治本质上是对十七世纪意义的漫长争论。
And he basically argues that British politics is a huge argument about the meaning of the seventeenth century.
你知道的，就是那种辉格党与托利党的分歧——这两种党派在十七世纪末逐渐成形。
You know, kind of wig our wigs and Tories, which kind of come about at the end of the seventeenth century.
这种分歧一边是托利党那种约翰牛式的传统愿景，另一边则是清教主义那种异议精神与高尚情操，这些脉络都能追溯回去，对吧？
And this sort of the division between, you know, the sort of Tory vision of the sort of John Bull and all of that kind of thing, and then the the spirit of descent and high mindedness and Puritanism, you can trace those things back, can't you?
是的。
Yeah.
而且我认为，真正有趣的是在脱欧公投后进行的多项研究，这些研究将内战期间支持国王和支持议会的地区，与投票支持脱欧和留欧的地区进行了对应分析。
And I I think that that that what is what what is interesting is a number of studies that were done in the wake of the Brexit vote, which mapped, areas that, supported the king in the civil war and supported parliament onto areas that had voted for Brexit and those that had voted for remain.
匹配度相当高。
And the match was pretty good.
伦敦这类地区就是典型，它们无论在21世纪还是17世纪，都因与欧洲大陆经济的紧密联系而获益。
It was London, it was the kind of areas that have profited from close contacts with the European continental economy, both in the twenty first century and in the seventeenth century.
而那些在17世纪
And it was the left behind areas that in the seventeenth century
支持国王的
had backed the king.
落后地区。
So the king is Brexit.
所以国王就代表脱欧？你是这个意思吗？
That's what you're saying?
穆迪的观点。
What Muddi's at.
本质上讲，保皇党地区与支持脱欧的地区相吻合。
Essentially, the royalist areas map onto the Brexit supporting areas.
是的。
Yeah.
这很有趣，不是吗？
That's interesting, isn't it?
因为脱欧派，那些极端狂热的脱欧派人士，比如保守党欧洲议会议员丹尼尔·汉南这类怪人，他们自认为是圆颅党的后裔。
Because Brexiteers, super keen Brexiteers, sort of loon loonies like Daniel Hannan, the Tory MEP, they they see themselves as the descendants of the round heads.
但这就是其精彩之处——根本不存在清晰的传承脉络。
But that is that's what's so glorious about it, is that the that there is no clear line of descent.
这一切都极其混乱且令人困惑。
It's it's all incredibly confusing and muddling.
他们恰恰就是托利党与辉格党的写照。
And they're exactly who Tories and Whigs are.
我是说，他们在十七世纪末到十八世纪期间，几乎一直在不断变换立场。
I mean, they they're kind of constantly switching sides and over the course of the late seventeenth century into the eighteenth century.
所以那种血脉传承的感觉既存在又不存在。
So that sense of a line of descent is of there and kind of not.
维多利亚时期也是如此，当时政治对立双方的人们都自视为保皇派，尤其是与克伦威尔认同。
And the same in the Victorian period, the way in which people on opposite sides of the political divide in the Victorian period are identifying themselves with the royalists, particularly with Cromwell.
我是说，将克伦威尔视为自由主义之父的观念——这解释了为什么他的雕像会矗立在议会大厦外。
I mean, the sense of Cromwell as the father of liberalism, which is I mean, it explains why that statue is up outside the houses of parliament.
这其实与克伦威尔本人关系不大。
It's not really about Cromwell himself.
而是关乎维多利亚晚期自由主义者如何理解自我。
It's about how late Victorian liberals understand themselves.
这再次成为历史魅力的组成部分——人们始终在利用历史。
That, again, is part of the fascination of the history, is that people are constantly using it.
而通过这种利用，他们某种程度上改变了历史的意涵。
And by using it, are kind of changing the sense of it.
我认为实际上，在国家当前面临的另一个重大政治分歧——英格兰与苏格兰的关系问题上，我们再次看到了这种历史映射现象。
And I think that actually, on another kind of huge political division that the country's facing now, where again we see that, which is the relationship between England and Scotland.
因为十七世纪的历史为我们提供了一个模型，展示了脱离英格兰和威尔士后独立的苏格兰可能呈现的样貌。
Because the thing about the seventeenth century is that that provides us with a model of what an independent Scotland cut loose from England and Wales, what it might look like.
而我认为，或许不会以...
And I think that, it's perhaps not It would start in
同样的方式开始，汤姆，就像当年一位妇女因新祈祷书问题向波塔舍十字扔凳子那样。
the same way, Tom, with, a woman throwing a stool at Potasher's Cross about the new prayer book.
这就是你对尼古拉·斯特金的看法吗？
Is that how you see Nicola Sturgeon?
嗯，我确实这么认为。引发那场席卷整个不列颠和爱尔兰的内战的原因之一，就是查理一世试图将一种特定的宗教模式——在苏格兰人眼中被视为英格兰宗教模式——强加给苏格兰。
Well, I I I do think so so one of the things that that ends up precipitating the civil wars that convulses the whole of Britain and Ireland is the attempt by Charles I to impose a particular model of religion and what is seen in Scotland as an English model of religion on Scotland.
你审视这段历史就会发现，宗教问题确实具有深远影响。
You look at it and you can see that this religious stuff matters profoundly.
它足以撼动整个国家。
It's capable of shaking entire nations.
它彻底影响了人们看待和理解世界的方式。
It completely affects how people see and understand the world.
这种影响的印记甚至在基督教信仰或许消散后依然存在。
And the print of that endures even after Christian faith perhaps evaporates.
我认为现代苏格兰民族主义的传承脉络，源自一种圣经浸染的选民意识——将苏格兰人视为天选之民，这绝对是当代政治的一部分。
And I think that the line of descent of modern Scottish nationalism from a kind of biblically infused sense of the Scots as being an elect is absolutely a a part of contemporary politics.
听众们都知道，只要稍加引导，汤姆就能滔滔不绝地讲上几个小时，内容不外乎两点：一是基督教，二是苏格兰民族主义。
As listeners will know, it takes very little effort to get Tom to opine for hours on end about his thoughts on, a, Christianity, and b, Scottish nationalism.
但我们时间不多了。
But we're running out of time.
我只想最后问一个想法。
I just want one last thought.
女巫。
Witches.
这是猎巫和焚烧女巫的鼎盛时期，我不禁联想到另一位与苏格兰有关联的人物——J·K·罗琳，以及她在网络上遭受的攻击等等。
This is the great age of witch hunting and witch burning, and I can't help thinking of somebody else with Scottish, or certainly Scottish associations, JK Rowling, and the online attacks on her and all that.
这与十七世纪的猎巫行动有什么相似之处吗？
Is there any parallel there with witch hunts of the seventeenth century?
我认为J.
I think that J.
K.
K.
罗琳更像是一个风向标。
Rowling is more significant as kite.
她相当于宗教领袖，因为女巫大体上是没有受过教育的人，正因为她们如此边缘化，正因为她们没有响亮的声音，才容易受到惩罚。
She's the equivalent of a religious leader because witches were, by and large, they were uneducated people who could be punished precisely because they were so marginal, precisely because they didn't have a loud voice.
C罗琳拥有惊人的影响力，这使她成为众矢之的，无论是支持还是反对她立场的人。
JK Rowling has an incredible voice, and that's what's made her a lightning rod, both for people who support her position and those who don't.
所以我认为J.K.罗琳相当于积极参与了
So I think that JK Rowling is someone who's very active in the equivalent of what would have been in
十七世纪的小册子论战。
the seventeenth century pamphlet wars.
但这种寻找替罪羊的冲动——点名羞辱那些偏离正统信仰的人，将社会弊病归咎于特定个体的道德缺陷，尤其是那些你可以欺负的弱势群体——这感觉非常像十七世纪的猎巫行为，不是吗？
But that impetus to find scapegoats, to name and shame people who have fallen from the true faith, to attribute the ills of society to the moral failings of particular individuals, particularly people who you can pick on and you can kind of bully, I mean, that feels very like seventeenth century witch hunting, doesn't it?
是的。
Yes.
我认为有趣的是...我的意思是，跳出英国视角看整个欧洲，关于猎巫狂热最令人沮丧的一点是，这几乎是当时唯一真正跨教派的活动。
And I think what's inter I mean, pulling out from just Britain and looking at the whole of Europe, one of the incredibly depressing things about the witch craze is that it's pretty much the only ecumenical thing that happens.
这是天主教徒和新教徒唯一完全达成共识的事情——迫害女巫。
It's the only thing that Catholics and Protestants completely share in, is the desire to persecute witches.
这或许也是当下我们看到的某种现象：实际上，极左和极右之间可能存在着更多共同点
And again, maybe that's something that we see in the present, that actually, there's perhaps more that joins extremes of left and right
没错。
Yeah.
虽然我们之间存在诸多分歧，但总能团结起来
Than So much divides us, but we can all unite around.
对付那些'出言不逊'的女性。
Turning on on women who speak out of place.
是啊。
Yeah.
哦，天哪。
Oh, gosh.
让我们在最后快速转向一个完全不同的话题。
Let us move on to a very different subject very quickly right at the end.
来自名字奇妙的CFJC七十五号的简短留言，想必是C3PO的表亲。
A quick note from the fabulously named CFJC seventy five, so presumably a cousin of c three p o.
先生们，他说/她是一位非常优秀的法官。
Gentlemen, he says, he's a very fine judge or she's a very fine judge.
先生们，刚刚在格林威治公园散步时欣赏了你们的前两期播客。
Gentlemen, just enjoyed your first two podcasts while walking around Greenwich Park.
如果你们能做一期关于二十世纪每十年历史书籍推荐的播客就太好了。
It would be great if you did a podcast on history book recommendations from each century and each decade of the twentieth century.
不过那确实是个好主意。
But that is a good idea.
我认为我们应该简单推荐一下十七世纪的相关书籍。
I think we should just do a quick recommendation about the seventeenth century.
汤姆，给我们推荐几本你认为听众可能会喜欢的十七世纪书籍。
Tom, give us a couple of seventeenth century books that you think listeners might enjoy.
嗯，我之前已经提到过一本，杰弗里·帕克的《全球危机》，不仅关于英国，而是涵盖全球视野。
Well, I I I mentioned one already, which is Jeffrey Parker's Global Crisis, not just about Britain, about the whole sweep of the world.
这本书令人震撼，几乎在每一个可能的方面都引人入胜。
Really stupefying book and interesting in almost every way it's possible to be interesting.
我还想推荐今年早些时候出版的一本书，保罗·莱关于克伦威尔执政时期（护国公时期）的精彩著作《失落的天意》。
I'd also recommend a book that came out earlier this year, Paul Lay's fantastic book on the protectorate Cromwell's period in power called Providence Lost.
书名巧妙地呼应了《失乐园》。
So play there on Paradise Lost.
这本书极其易读且精彩绝伦，非常吸引人。
Incredibly readable, incredibly good thing, fascinating.
我也来推荐几本我自己的选择，都是些年代较久的书。
And I'll give a couple of my own a couple of older books.
有一本关于克伦威尔的书叫《上帝的英国人》，作者是克里斯托弗·希尔，篇幅很短。
There's a book on Cromwell called God's Englishman by Christopher Hill, which is short.
很多十七世纪的书籍都很冗长，但这本是短篇。
A lot of seventeenth century books are very long, so it's a short book.
它真正深入克伦威尔的内心世界，实际上是对那个时期的绝佳入门读物。
And it really gets under Cromwell's skin, and it's a great introduction to the period, actually.
另一本是我有史以来最爱的书籍，我认为每个人都该读读——哪怕对十七世纪历史毫无兴趣——那就是《塞缪尔·佩皮斯日记》。
And the other book is one of my favorite books of all time, which I think absolutely everybody should read, even if they have no interest in history of the seventeenth century at all, is the Diary of Samuel Pepes.
这本书很长，但你可以读缩写版。
Now it's very long, but you can read short versions.
我想不出还有多少其他书籍能让你如此深入一个完全不同时代人物的内心世界。
And I can't think of many other books that get you into the mind of somebody living in an entirely different era.
我的意思是，读完这本书后，你会像了解自己、配偶或密友一样了解塞缪尔·佩皮斯。
I mean, you know Samuel Peebs by the time you finish that book, as well as you know yourself or your husband or your wife or your closest friends.
你会感觉自己仿佛活在他的思想里。
And you you kind of, you know, you're living in his head.
这本书堪称杰作，是了解十七世纪真实底层生活的绝佳指南。
It's a fantastic book, fantastic guide to what life was actually like sort of on the ground in the seventeenth century.
多米尼克，在结束前，我想推荐一本可能是我心目中排名第一的历史小说。
And Dominic, just before we end, one novel, which I think is possibly absolutely top of my list of historical novels.
书名叫《指柱之证》，作者伊恩·皮尔斯。
It's called Instance of the Fingerpost by Ian Pearce.
故事背景设定在护国公时期结束、查理二世复辟的时代。
And it's set against the backdrop of the end of the Protectorate, the restoration of Charles II.
它有点像一部悬疑小说。
It's a kind of a mystery.
书中提供了四种不同的叙事视角。
You have four different perspectives.
结局精彩得超乎想象。
The denouement is out of this world.
一定要读一读。
Do read it.
这本书太精彩了。
It's brilliant.
我完全同意你的看法，汤姆。
I could not agree with you more, Tom.
那绝对是一本精彩绝伦的书。
That is an absolutely brilliant book.
我记得我熬夜通宵读完了那本书。
I remember I stayed up all night reading that book.
那种感觉真是...实在太难得了。
It was I was it's so rare to think.
它完全可以与《秘史》或《玫瑰之名》这类伟大作品比肩
It's right out there with The Secret History or The Name of the Rose or any of these kind of great
它是最伟大的历史小说之一。
It's one of the one of the great, great historical novels.
确实如此。
It is indeed.
总之，我觉得我们只是触及了表面，还有很多话要说，但我们玩得很开心，希望你也一样。
Well, anyway, I kind of feel we've only scratched the surface and there's so much more to say, but we've had fun, and I hope you have too.
这就是本周的内容了。
So that's it for this week.
感谢收听。
Thank you for listening.
我们每周一都会在这里，用历史话题为你的新一周拉开精彩序幕。
We're gonna be here every Monday to start your week with a historical bang.
历史性的精彩开场。
A historical bang.
谁知道会是什么呢？
Who knows what that could be?
请务必订阅我们。
So do please subscribe.
请在苹果播客上给我们评分，也感谢你的收听。
Do please rate us on Apple Podcasts, and you for listening.
再见。
Goodbye.
谢谢
Thanks
感谢收听《The Rest is History》。
for listening to The Rest is History.
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For bonus episodes, early access, ad free listening, and access to our chat community, please sign up at restishistorypod.com.
网址是restishistorypod.com。
That's restishistorypod.com.
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