40. 历史作为娱乐

他的脸上洋溢着光芒与释然。

His face floods with light and relief.

你赢得了选美比赛的二等奖。

You have won second prize in a beauty contest.

收集十英镑。

Collect 10 pounds.

《大富翁》最初于1903年作为地主游戏被发明，此后不断被重新想象和诠释。

Monopoly, first invented as the landlord's game in nineteen o three, endlessly reimagined and reinterpreted ever since.

欢迎来到《历史的其余部分》，由历史界的肯特路老将汤姆·霍兰德，以及我，梅费尔先生多米尼克·桑布鲁克为您呈现。

Welcome to The Rest is History with the old Kent Road of history, Tom Holland, and with me, mister Mayfair, Dominic Sambrook.

你好，汤姆。

Hello, Tom.

你是个大富翁迷。

You're a big Monopoly fan.

多么美妙的开场啊。

What a what a a wonderful introduction.

你已经赢了《历史其余部分》这个游戏了。

You've won the game of The Rest is History already.

是的，我赢了。

I have.

我们应该现在就停下了。

We should stop right now.

从这里开始就会每况愈下了。

It'll be downhill from here.

所以今天的话题其实非常宏大，对吧？

So today's subject is a huge one, actually, isn't it?

这是作为娱乐的历史，作为桌游、电子游戏的历史。

It's history as entertainment, history as, board games, video games.

我想我们先从重演开始，因为这显然是你非常熟悉的内容，你过去也写过这方面的内容。

And I thought we'd go in first with reenactments, because that's obviously something that you know a lot about because you've written about it in the past.

我们收到了罗兰·明纳的一条提问，他说：我记得罗马人曾把战斗重演作为他们游戏的一部分。

And we had a question to me from Roland Miners who says, I seem to remember the Romans did battle reenactments as part of their games.

我们一直听说，竞技场可以注水来进行海战。

So we're always told that the stadiums could be floated for sea battles.

他说，这是为了给角斗士互相厮杀增添氛围，还是对历史的真实重现？

And he says, was this a bit of theming for gladiators to kill each other, or was this actual reenactment of history?

我想，自从有了历史以来，汤姆，人们就一直在重现它。

And I guess for as long as there's been history, Tom, people have reenacted it.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

人们可能还记得《角斗士》里，罗素·克劳扮演的是迦太基人，在扎马战役中，迦太基人本应输给罗马人，但在电影里他们赢了，这当然也是重现历史的乐趣所在，不是吗？

Well, people probably remember in Gladiator that Russell Crowe plays the part of the Carthaginians in the battle of Zama, where the Carthaginians lost to the Romans, in Gladiator they win, which, of course, is part of the fun of reenacting history, isn't it?

我的意思是，举办这些活动的乐趣之一，就是偶尔会出现不同的结果。

I mean, it's part of the fun of staging these, is that occasionally you get different results.

显然，罗马人会对这些结果施加一定的控制。

Obviously the Romans would have exercised some control over that.

比如我们知道，克劳狄乌斯征服不列颠后，重新上演了他对科尔切斯特的占领。

So we know, for instance, that after Claudius conquers Britain, he restages his capture of Colchester.

毫无疑问，不列颠人是不可能赢这场战斗的。

There was no question that the Britons were going to win that.

显然，罗马人必须赢得这场战斗。

Obviously the Romans had to win it.

但没错，我认为你能感受到，我们知道克劳狄乌斯还赞助了一场盛大的海战，我认为是罗得岛人和叙拉古人之间的对决。

But yes, I think you do get the sense, we know that Claudius also sponsored a great naval battle in which I think the Rhodians and the Syracusans fought each other.

我觉得这更像那些电脑游戏，你可以让阿兹特克人和巴比伦人打起来之类的。

And I think that's a bit more like those kind of computer games where you can get the Aztecs fighting the Babylonians or something.

你让不同的人互相战斗。

You bring different people to fight each other.

当然，这种角斗士所穿的盔甲风格中，有一种叫萨姆尼特人，他们是公元前3世纪被罗马人击败的意大利中部民族，还有色雷斯人，他们是来自北希腊的另一种类型。

And of course, in this style of armor that the gladiators wore, so that you had a type called the Samnite, which was a central Italian people defeated by the Romans in the third century BC, and then you have Thracians who were another kind in Northern Greece.

我认为角斗士战斗的用意在于提醒罗马人铭记自己的历史和尚武精神。

And I think there was the sense with gladiatorial combat that it was about reminding the Romans of their own history, of their martial qualities.

你知道，罗马是这个伟大和平帝国的核心城市。

You know, Rome is this city at the heart of a great peaceful empire.

所以人们确实有点担心他们正在遗忘自己的尚武价值观。

So people did slightly worry that they were forgetting their martial values.

因此，我认为角斗士战斗的存在在某种程度上是为了提醒罗马人他们的古代尚武历史。

So there was, I think, a sense in which gladiatorial combat existed to remind the Romans of their ancient martial history.

所以，我认为在一定程度上可以把这算作历史重演。

So, I think you could count that as historical reenactment to a degree.

而且，讲述历史本身不就是一种重演吗？

And sort of telling history in itself is a reenactment, isn't it?

我的意思是，历史的奇怪之处在于，当你在纸上重新讲述它时，你其实是在表演它。

I mean, the weird thing about history is that, you know, you're you're sort of performing it when you retell it on the page.

关于历史，总存在这样一个问题，或者说我们在推特上经常收到评论，讨论历史在多大程度上是社会科学，又在多大程度上是一种文学娱乐？

And there's always this issue with history or, you know, we get a lot of comments on Twitter about, you know, to what extent is history social science or to what extent is it is it a kind of literary entertainment?

而娱乐从一开始就融入了历史，比如希罗多德等人，不是吗？

And entertainment is kind of baked into history from the beginning, isn't it, with Herodotus and so on?

人们读这些东西是因为有趣，而且他们想

And people read that stuff because it's fun and because they want to have

有趣。

fun.

对吧？

Right?

但你也认为，当你阅读关于过去的东西时，其中本身就蕴含着一种渴望亲眼目睹它的感觉。

But you think also, though, that baked into it is a a kind of when you read something about the past, you you can feel this yearning to see it for yourself.

当然。

Oh, absolutely.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

所以

So

我们谈到了亚瑟。

we talked about Arthur.

我们谈到了温彻斯特的亚瑟王和圆桌，这几乎可以肯定是爱德华一世时期的骑士们试图重现卡梅洛特的象征。

We talked about King Arthur and the round table at Winchester, which almost certainly was built to mark an attempt by knights under Edward I to recreate Camelot.

因此，中世纪的比武大会上，人们会装扮成加拉哈德、兰斯洛特或其他人物，这一直是一个主题。

And that was something So that was a theme in tournaments throughout the Middle Ages, was that people would come dressed as Galahad or Lancelot or whatever.

这是一种渴望让人们相信真实发生过的浪漫世界变得真实的愿望。

And it was a kind of desire to make real this world of romance that people believed had actually happened.

他们和我们一样，有一种无法再找回的失落世界的感觉。

They had a sense as we do of a kind of lost world that they can never recapture.

他们渴望的是魅力与光彩。

And they wanted and glamour.

他们认为过去是有魅力的，是吗？

They think that the past is glamorous, do they?

是的。

Yes.

当然，维多利亚女王加冕后，十九世纪曾试图重现骑士比武，许多人觉得当时的加冕典礼太过平淡。

And then, of course, famously, there was an attempt to recreate the tournament in the nineteenth century after Queen Victoria's coronation, which lots of people felt had been rather drab.

他们摒弃了这样的传统：女王的冠军登场，挑战任何不愿接受单挑的人，以此彰显女王的权威。

And they got rid of this kind of tradition where the champion of the queen comes in and challenges someone to single combat if they're not going to, etcetera, as queen.

于是，埃格斯顿公爵在艾什沙举办了这场比武，当然，那天下雨了。

And so the Duke of Eglinton set up this tournament in Ehysha, which of course it rained.

当然。

Of course.

所以整个活动完全被雨水泡汤了。

So it was all in the absolute kind of washout.

但这种维多利亚时代伪中世纪风格的尝试却极为精彩，对建筑和各种领域都产生了巨大影响。

But that's kind of brilliant, whole kind of Victorian strain of cod medievalism, which was hugely influential on architecture and all kinds of things.

但他们确实需要亲自去组织一场真正的比武。

But it was, you know, they needed to actually try and stage a tournament.

我想，这种做法一直延续到了二十世纪，因为随着消费社会的发展，人们有更多钱去重现这类事物，也就越多人这么做。

And I guess that that is absolutely something that goes into the twentieth century because of course, the more that you have a consumer society, the more you have money that you can spend on recreating this kind of stuff, the more people do it.

是的。

Yes.

我想起曾经和一位叫伊恩·莫蒂默的人聊过，他写了一系列名为《穿越时空指南：某个历史时期》的书，他会把历史写成一本旅游指南的样子。

And I suppose there's a I remember having a conversation once with a guy called Ian Mortimer who writes these books called the time traveler's guide to a particular period, and he'll write about history as though it's a guidebook.

你知道，这是你住宿的地方。

You know, this is where you stay.

这是你吃饭的地方。

This is where you eat.

这涉及到历史作为娱乐的问题。

And it was about the question about history as entertainment.

有时候，作为一位学术历史学家，当你与同行进行史学争论时，很容易忘记这一点。

And sometimes it's easy to forget, I think, when you're a sort of academic historian, engaged in historiographical arguments with your peers.

实际上，人们之所以对历史感兴趣，人们之所以在听这个播客，是因为它很有趣。

That actually the reason people get into history, and the reason actually people are listening to this podcast, is because they is because it's fun.

因为有些东西

It's because there's something

你是说这个播客很有趣？

You're saying this podcast is fun?

嗯，我觉得至少我自己玩得很开心，即使别人不觉得。

Well, I think it's I'm having fun anyway even if nobody else is.

但你知道，你对历史感兴趣，不仅仅是因为它有教育意义。

But, you know, there's that sense that you you're interested in history, not just because it's instructive.

我的意思是，我们已经做过一整期关于历史教训的播客了。

I mean, we've done a whole podcast about the lessons of history.

但正如你所说，有一种无法满足的、字面意义上的渴望，想要了解那些在我们之前生活过的人，想要看到他们的世界——那个我们永远无法触及的世界。

But because, as you said, there is this there's this sort of insatiable or I mean, literally insatiable yearning to see people who've been before us and to see their world that we can never that is completely out of reach.

这就是为什么人们总会进行这类重演活动。

And that's why people will always do these kind of reenactments and things.

但说到重演，其实存在一个模糊地带，对吧？当它变成活的历史时。

But when it comes to reenactment, there is actually a kind of border zone, isn't it, where it becomes living history?

人们会说，如果你想理解某件事，你必须亲自去体验它。

And people will say that if you want to understand something, you actually have to experience it.

大约五年前，谈到中世纪比武和重现它们时，我发现通常去国家信托基金举办的活动时，它们只是表演，非常无聊。

So about five years ago, talking on the subject of medieval tournaments and recreating them, I find generally when you go to them, they recreate them at National Trust, I find incredibly dull because they're just staged.

但大约五年前，我去了一次，我记得官方名称好像是‘中世纪战争’之类的。

But about five years ago, went to, I think it's officially called medieval warfare or something.

这有点像一项运动。

It's kind of like a sport.

他们在西班牙中部拉曼查的贝尔蒙特城堡举办，那里曾拍摄过查尔顿·赫斯顿主演的电影《西德》。

And they staged it at this castle Belmonte in La Mancha in the middle of Spain, which is where they filmed El Cid, a Charlton Heston film.

他们举办了一场盛大的国际锦标赛。

And they have this huge international tournament.

这有点像世界杯。

It's kind of like the World Cup.

他们有来自美国、英国、德国以及世界各地的队伍。

They had teams from America and Britain and Germany all around the world.

我以为又会非常无聊。

And I thought it was gonna, again, be really dull.

这太精彩了。

It was brilliant.

简直太棒了。

It was absolutely fantastic.

规则是他们有一个类似足球场的场地，你不允许走出足球场，而且是一对一、五对五的对抗。

So the rules are that they have a kind of like a football pitch, I guess, and you're not allowed to go outside the football pitch and you map up one on one, five on five.

高潮部分是一百对一百。

The climax was 100 on 100.

一百个人？

100 people?

我的意思是，这简直是一场真正的战斗。

I mean, that's a proper battle.

哦，这真的是我参加过的最伟大的体育赛事之一。

Oh, it was really, really it's one of the all great sporting events that I've ever been to.

规则基本上是，你可以随便打任何人头部。

And the rule is essentially that you can smack anyone around the head you like.

你知道，你没有剑。

You know, you don't have a sword.

你没有任何锋利的武器，但你有钝斧、钉头锤之类的，可以随便打人。

You don't have anything sharp, but you have kind of blunt axes or maces or whatever, and you can just smack people.

只要对方还站着，战斗就继续。

And as long as they are on two feet, the battle continues.

一旦他们用手、手肘、头或其他任何部位触地，就出局了。

The moment they touch anything else, say with their hand or their elbow or their head or whatever, then they're out.

这太棒了。

It was amazing.

而这种活动具有教育意义的理由是，你的盔甲越好，就越能站得稳。

And the argument for this being educational was that the better your armour, the better you are able to stand up.

所以我跟德国队的队长聊了聊，我想他是个旅行社职员，但业余时间他会走遍德国各地的教堂和礼拜堂，观察骑士盔甲的雕像。

So I spoke to the captain of the German team, I think think he was a travel agent, but in his spare time, he'd go around chapels and churches all around Germany looking at effigies of knights in armour.

但他是在寻找灵感。

But he's looking for tips.

而且还得利用优势寻找窍门。

And had to live advantage looking for tips.

太有趣了。

Such fun.

但更精彩的是，这还极具政治意味，因为我觉得这项运动最初是由俄罗斯人发起的，而俄罗斯人显然非常强势，因此被其他国家排挤。

But also the other brilliant thing about that was that it was also very, very political because I think that this sport had been begun by the Russians and the Russians were apparently rather aggressive, and so they'd been frozen out by all the other countries.

事实上，我认为参与其中的一些人后来还参与了克里米亚的入侵。

And in fact, I think some of the people who were involved in that then went on to take part in the invasion of Crimea.

这很有趣。

That's interesting.

是的。

Yeah.

这本身就像是对沙皇时代辉煌的重现。

Which is itself a kind of reenactment of czarist glory.

你知道吗？

You know?

我的意思是，政治家们在多大程度上会产生关联？

I mean, to what extent politicians connect.

鲍里斯·约翰逊是不是一种丘吉尔的重现？

Is Boris Johnson a kind of Churchill reenactment act?

我的意思是，或许你可以争论说，重现本身已经深植于政治之中了。

I mean, that's, I suppose, you can argue reenactment is is baked into politics itself.

但说到政治，这真是个有趣的现象，你去过法国的一个叫普伊杜福的地方吗？那是欧洲最受欢迎的主题公园之一，主题全是历史。

But on the politics, that's a really interesting thing because have you ever been to this place in France called Puy Du Fou, which is this one of Europe's most popular theme parks, is all about history?

没有。

No.

我去过星标公园。

I've been I've been to the Asterisk Park.

我从来没去过星标公园，但普伊杜福非常迷人，因为它分成了好几个区域。

I've never been to the Asterisk 1, but the Puigi Fu one is fascinating because it was so it has a series of zones.

其中一个区域是关于维京人的。

One there's one about the Vikings.

还有一个关于中世纪的，有好几个都是关于中世纪的。

There's one about med there's a couple about the Middle Ages.

那些是你一定会喜欢的。

They have which you would love.

他们有一个罗马竞技场，我是说，那里有举办战车赛、角斗士对决和野兽表演的竞技场。

They have a Roman amphithe I mean, they have an amphitheater where they have shows with chariot racing, gladiatorial battles, and and wild animals.

宣传册上说他们有处决表演，但我认为这不可能是真的。

It says in the brochure they have executions, but I don't believe that can be true.

但在这个领域，它非常受欢迎。

But it's massively popular in this space.

你每年能吸引数百万游客。

You get hundreds of thou millions of people.

它是法国第二大主题公园，仅次于迪士尼乐园。

It's the second most visited theme park in France after Disneyland.

有趣的是，它是由一位政客创办的，他最初是密特朗的文化部长，菲利普·德·维利耶，如今他立场极右，反伊斯兰、反移民，是一位毫不掩饰的法国民族主义保守派。

And what's interesting about it is it's set up by a politician who was originally Mitterrand's culture minister, Philippe de Villiers, who's now very right wing, very anti Islam, anti immigration, kind of an unashamed French nationalist conservative.

而你所看到的历史版本，基本上就是国王和战争的纯粹故事。

And and the the version of history that you get is kinda kings pure kings and battles.

这有点像我们英国的‘岛国故事’版本。

It's a kind of it's a kind of the French equivalent of our island story.

所以关于黎塞留的火枪手，他们有一个关于第一次世界大战凡尔登战役的展示，非常受欢迎。

So the stuff about Richelieu's musketeers, they have a thing about the battle of Verdun from World War one, and it is colossally popular.

我的意思是，很难想象真的去过那里。

I mean, I it's hard

你能想象去过那里吗？

to imagine been to that?

我其实没去过。

I haven't actually.

我是在跟人聊这个，我本来打算在疫情前去的。

I'm talking about it with with, I was going to go before COVID.

我儿子特别想去，疫情期间我们时不时为了消遣，就会看一些视频。

My son is desperate to go, and every now and again to amuse ourselves during lockdown, we would watch videos.

你知道吧？

You know?

那种处决方式简直太可怕了。

And that's sort of terrible Executions.

这是第三手的游客式体验。

Third hand tourist way.

我们会看其他去过的人上传的YouTube视频，是的。

We'd watch YouTube videos of other people who've been Yes.

然后我们为自己无法亲自前往而感到难过。

And sort of weeped that we can't go ourselves.

我的意思是，那看起来很棒，但我一直在想，能不能用一种不那么右翼的方式来做？

I mean, it looks amazing, but I was thinking, could you do it in a less right wing way?

我的意思是，能不能搞一个左翼历史主题公园？

I mean, could you do a left wing history theme park?

我不确定，如果他们搞一个彼得·卢的重演，再讲讲宪章运动，会怎么样。

And I'm not sure what if they did a sort of Peter Lou reenactment and a thing about the chartists.

我的意思是，托尼·本可能会喜欢，但他们会在伯福德举办一天的大型重演活动。

I mean, Tony Ben would like, but they have level a day in Burford, which is a which is a kind of big reenactment.

我的意思是，确实有一些重演活动，人们带着海报来，高喊约翰·利尔本之类的名字。

I mean, there's some reenactment as in people turn up with posters and shout about John Lilburn or something.

嗯，有一个封印结，不是吗？

Well, I I mean, there's a sealed knot, isn't there?

是的，就是那个。

Which is Yeah.

我想说的是

I think what

我能看出来你

I can see you

封印结现在都老了。

as a sealed years old now.

你有没有参加过封印结？我打赌你肯定参加过封印结。

Have you have you done the sealed I bet you've done the sealed knot

对我来说。

to me.

嗯，我记得我从来没有过。

Well, I I remember I've never no.

我从未真正参与过。

I've never actually taken part in it.

我总是怀有隐秘的向往。

I've always had secret yearning.

是的。

Yeah.

不过你会扮演一个骑兵，对吧？

You'd be a cavalier, though, wouldn't you?

当一个？不。

To be an no.

当一个铁甲兵。

Be an iron sight.

你会吗？

Would you?

我会成为一个铁眼。

I'd be an iron sight.

我真想成为铁眼。

I'd love to be an iron sight.

我想成为像克伦威尔的间谍头子那样的人，可以吗？

I'd like to be like, can you be Cromwell spymaster or something?

那才是我想做的事。

That's what I'd want to do.

也许是弥尔顿，坐在那里，双目失明，用拉丁文写些粗鲁的东西。

Milton perhaps, just sit there being blind, writing rude stuff in Latin.

有一本书，是犯罪作家安东尼·普赖斯写的小说，他几乎没人再读了，但我真的很喜欢他的作品。

There was a book, a novel by a crime writer called Anthony Price, who almost, I don't think anyone reads them anymore, but I really love them.

这些故事总是围绕历史展开的犯罪、惊悚和间谍故事。

They're always crime stories, thrillers, espionage stories revolving around history.

他写过一本叫《战争游戏》的小说，故事背景设定在一场战斗中，类似于‘密封结’类型的战役。

And he had one called War Game, which was set in the context of a battle, a kind of sealed knot type battle.

书中核心设定是，议会派一方全都是极左派，而保王派一方则全是极右派。

And the gist in that was that everyone on the parliamentarian side was very much on the left and everyone on the royalist side was very much on the right.

一个被军情五处逼到崩溃的极左人士，最终死在沟渠里，胸口插着一柄战斧——听起来很棒。

And a very left wing guy who's being shattered by MI5 ends up dead in a ditch with a halberd through his Sounds great.

那本书真的很棒。

And it was great.

我记得它特别出色。

I remember it being great.

然后故事逐渐揭示出一个巨大的阴谋论。

And then it kind of turns out to be a big conspiracy theory.

但我一直在想，如果你是左派，大概会被圆颅党吸引；而如果你是右派，就会倾向于保王党，是的，他就是这样。

But I was kind of wondering whether I guess that if you're on the left, you would be probably drawn to the round heads, and if you're on the right to the Yeah, he would.

我查了‘密封结’这个词，因为我觉得我们最后肯定会谈到它。

I looked up the sealed note because I thought we'd probably end up talking about it.

它说，这个协会的名字来源于护国公时期密谋恢复君主制的一个团体。

And it says the name of the society derives from a group which during the protectorate plotted for the restoration of the monarchy.

所以这是一个骑士协会，但在这里，相似性就结束了，因为根据网站上的大写字母显示，现在的协会是非政治性的，没有任何政治立场或野心。

So it's a cavalier society, but here the similarity ends as the present society, and this is in capitals on the website, is nonpolitical and has no political affiliation or ambitions.

所以，显然让这一点清晰明了对这个印章来说非常重要。

So it seems very important for the seal not to make that clear.

我相信他们确实如此，但与此同时，我认为他们可能在性格上有些狭隘，因为他作为一个重演者非常保守。

I can believe that of them, but at the same time, I think there probably is something temperamentally small, because he's conservative about being a reenactor.

你不这么认为吗？

Don't you think?

我的意思是，如果你是极左派，你大概会认为你应该致力于建设一个更好的明天，而不是回到昨天，戴上一顶漂亮的帽子之类的东西，我觉得这确实带有一种保守倾向，虽然我不是说帽子本身有什么保守性，但这种感觉确实存在，对吧？

I mean, if you're super left wing, you probably think what you want to do is build a better tomorrow rather than go back to yesterday and sort of put on a nice hat and stuff, which I think is I'm not saying there's something inherently conservative about hats, but that kind of is there, isn't it?

当然。

Definitely.

特别是他们还加入了羽毛元素。

Particularly, they got feathers in.

是的，但你看，我要是打扮成斯坦利·鲍德温之类的人，那可能还挺——

Yeah, but see, I'd to dress up as Stanley Baldwin or something, so it would probably be quite-

当然。

Of course.

嗯，这肯定是个大赚钱项目。

Well, think that's a massive money spinner.

我觉得你应该去推进这个想法。

Think you should go ahead with that.

是的。

Yeah.

当然，毕竟在极端情况下，你真的会触及一些相当可疑的领域。

Well, there's, I mean, of course, because at the furthest extremes, you really are pushing into some quite dodgy areas.

哈里王子。

Prince Harry.

哈里王子。

Prince Harry.

嗯，是的。

Well, yes.

所以哈里王子打扮成纳粹。

So Prince Harry dressing up as Nazis.

所以打扮成纳粹是

So dressing up as Nazis is

这绝对是被禁止的。

big It's verboten, as it were.

大约十年前，有一位国会议员叫里奇·阿亚特，我想。

So there was congressman, Rich Ayatt, about ten years ago, I think.

他当时正在竞选国会议员，但他的参选资格被毁了，因为后来发现他是一名重演爱好者。

He was running for congress, and his candidature got torpedoed because it turned out that he was a reenactor.

而在他参与的重演活动中，他曾穿着党卫军制服。

And among the reenactments that he'd done, he dressed up in SS uniform.

那确实如此。

That's yeah.

我觉得从这种事中很难翻身。

I think that's hard to come back from that.

穿上党卫军制服，我认为，这简直是越界了。

Dressing up in an SS uniform, I think, I mean, that's you're pushing the pushing the boat out there.

人们总是声称，他们只是喜欢这套制服。

The claim that people always make, isn't it, is they just like the uniform.

但，是的，这其中多少有点‘我们是反派’的意味，我觉得很难克服，你觉得呢？

But, yeah, there's a slight are we the baddies aspect to it that I think is hard to overcome, don't you?

因此，我也想知道，在这个背景下，美国南北战争的重演现状如何？

And so also I was wondering in that context, and I don't know the answer to this.

我不知道答案是什么。

What the state of play is at the moment with the reenactment of wars of battles in the American civil war?

因为我知道在美国，这是一场规模庞大的活动。

Because I know that that's a huge scene in America.

我的意思是，他们让这些表演看起来不像外行。

I mean, they made the sealed not look like amateurs.

我的意思是，他们确实是外行，但你知道我的意思。

I mean, they are amateurs, but you know what I mean.

这规模可太大了。

They they it's huge.

但我好奇，这种做法是否在默认接受一个我们绝对应该在另一期播客里讨论的话题——即南方邦联的失败事业。

But I wonder whether that kind of buys into a subject that we should do in a definitely in a separate podcast, which is the lost cause of the confederacy.

所以很多人热衷于——我的意思是，对内战的着迷，我认为在美国往往带有某种政治色彩，就像种植园那一整套生态体系一样。

So lots of people love to I mean, fascination with the civil war, I think, often does have a sort of political dimension to it in America, rather like that whole ecosystem of plantations and and all that sort of stuff.

而且，是的，我的意思是，这会是

And, yeah, I mean, it would be

作为局外人很难理解。

hard as an outsider.

我的意思是，也许美国听众会不同意，并纠正我们的看法。

I mean, maybe American listeners will disagree and will put us right.

但作为局外人，我认为当你穿上南方邦联的制服为奴隶制辩护时，这其中总带着某种意味。

But as an outsider, I think there's an element when you're pulling on a confederate uniform in defense of slavery.

我的意思是，我知道有些人会说，哦，是州权问题之类的，但很明显，奴隶制是其中一个重要部分。

I mean, I know some people will say, oh, States rights or whatever, but there's obviously, slavery is a big part of it.

这在当下确实非常敏感，对吧？

That does feel very highly charged at the moment, doesn't it?

在英国，关于国家信托基金以及是否应该向游客披露那些拥有、建造或管理庄园的人是否靠奴隶制赚钱，存在很大争议。

Well, I mean, there's a big controversy here in Britain about the National Trust and to what extent visitors should be told about whether people who owned it or built it or whatever, whether they were making their money from slavery.

我在想，比福特那些大型种植园目前的状况如何，或者

And I was wondering what the stage of play is with the grand plantations at Beaufort or

我去过一个种植园。

Well, I've been to a plantation.

我去过一个叫邦尼霍尔的种植园。

I went to a plantation called Boone Hall.

我们被一位完全像《乱世佳人》里那种形象的人带领参观，她带我们看了厨房、漂亮的客厅、阳台以及所有这类地方。

We were shown around by absolutely, this sort of vision, this Scarlet O'Hara light vision, who, you know, told took us through the the kitchens and the lovely drawing room and the veranda and all this sort of stuff.

但她一次都没提到过奴隶制。

But she didn't mention slavery once.

远处还有一些小屋。

And there were sort of a load of huts in the distance.

我问那些小屋里发生了什么？

And I said, what was going on in the huts?

她说，哦，这些大概是员工宿舍之类的。

And she said, oh, this this is like the the staff quarters or something.

你知道的。

You know?

我的意思是，这都是几年前的事了。

I mean, this was some years ago.

我的意思是，也许他们之后已经改变了讲解方式。

I mean, maybe they've changed their their rubric since then.

但很明显，他们刻意淡化了作为游客本应最关注的核心内容。

But there was definitely a downplaying of the the the key element that you would think as a visitor would loom largest.

当然，我相信很多听众都会觉得，沉浸在这种世界中却对它最显著的特征避而不谈，实在有些不妥。

And obviously, as a lot of listeners, I'm sure, will think there's something kind of really a bit tasteless about luxuriating in this world without drawing attention to its single most salient feature.

我甚至在想，像伦敦地牢这样的地方，重点完全放在酷刑、死亡和谋杀上。

I wonder even something like the London Dungeon, where the emphasis is very much on torture and death and murder.

你知道，是开膛手杰克。

Know, he's know, it's Jack the Ripper.

嗯，关于开膛手杰克，我们请过哈莉·鲁本霍尔德来做客，她非常积极地反对所谓的‘开膛手杰克产业’，这很有趣，因为当我告诉我九岁的儿子我们要和她做一期播客时，他说：‘她会告诉我们谁是开膛手杰克吗？’

Well, Jack the Ripper, we had we had Hallie Rubenhold on, and she's very vigorous in campaigning against the Jack what she sees as the Jack the Ripper industry, which is interesting because when I told my son, who's nine, that we were doing a podcast with her and she and he said, is she gonna tell us who killed Jack the Ripper?

我说：‘不会。’

And I said, no.

她更关注那些受害者女性本身。

She's more into the women than victims.

他却说：‘谁在乎那些受害者？’

And he said, who cares about the victims?

他想知道夏洛克·福尔摩斯能不能抓到开膛手杰克，还有开膛手杰克是不是一位王子？

I wanna would Sherlock Holmes have caught Jack the Ripper, and was Jack the Ripper a prince?

这才是每个人真正想得到答案的两个问题。

Those are the two questions that everybody wants answered.

每个人都很想知道的问题。

Questions everyone wants.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yes.

嗯，我的意思是，我想那些经常被重现的通常是暴力场景。

Well, I I mean, I suppose that that the you know, if we the things that tend to get reenacted are violent.

它们确实是，而且无论是

They are, they're also Whether

是伦敦地牢里的开膛手杰克，还是重演战役，你都不会去重演普通人。

it's Jack the Ripper in London Dungeons or reenactment battles, you don't reenact people.

我想在某种程度上你确实会，不是吗？

I suppose to a degree you do, don't you?

偶尔会有一些尝试，比如汉普郡的一个村庄，他们重建了不同历史时期的茅屋。

Occasionally there kind of attempts to There's that village in Hampshire where they've rebuilt various huts from various periods of history.

确实会有一些人围坐在一起织东西之类的，但这些场景本身没那么有戏剧性。

And you do get people who kind of sit around and and weave and things, but it's it's less inherently dramatic.

确实没那么有戏剧性。

It is less dramatic.

如果你从更广泛的角度来看待历史作为一项产业，比如电影和书籍，经典上最畅销的是第二次世界大战和都铎王朝。

And if you judge if you judge history as an industry more broadly, so you think about films but also books, I mean, classically, sells is the Second World War and the Tudors.

都铎王朝的魅力在于人们会被砍头。

And the fascination of the Tudors is that people have their heads cut off.

我的意思是，人们喜欢这个故事，正是因为这一点。

I mean, that's what people like about the story.

这不仅仅是关于长袍和圣经之类的东西。

It's not just about kinda gowns and and and Bibles.

是的。

Yes.

这讲的就是处决。

It is about the execution.

执行是成功的关键。

The execution acts as key to the success.

我们现在来看角斗士比赛。

And and, you know, we look now at gladiatorial games.

我的意思是，我们得做个关于角斗士比赛的播客，但我们现在看角斗士比赛时是带着恐惧的。

I mean, we will have to do a podcast on gladiatorial games, but we look now at gladiatorial games with horror.

我敢说，这是因为我们的基督教传统，所以我们对血腥场面和一切相关的东西感到反感。

I'm sure you would say because of our Christian heritage, and we recoil from the spectacle of the blood and all the rest of it.

但我们不是也在消费血腥吗？

But we consume the blood, don't we?

间接地。

Vicariously.

我的意思是，我们马上就要谈电子游戏，但我们在书籍中也在消费这些内容。

I mean, we're gonna do video games in a second, but we consume it in the books.

我的意思是，现在有多少作者、多少历史学家正在撰写章节，描述上千人惨烈死去的场景。

I mean, how many authors right now, how many historians are crafting a chapter in which a thousand people die horribly.

是的

Yeah.

而且我们会阅读它，人们也会为了娱乐而阅读它。

And we're gonna read it for people are gonna read it for entertainment effectively.

对。

Right.

你提到了电脑游戏，还有桌游，很多以历史为背景的游戏确实涉及大量人员死亡。

And you you mentioned computer games and indeed board games, and an awful lot of those that have a kind of historical setting absolutely do involve lots and lots of people being killed.

但可能只是棋子在棋盘上移动，整个大陆就被征服了，或者在电脑游戏中，你攻占一座城市之类的。

But it could be a counter moving across a board and entire continents are conquered, or in a computer game, you storm a city or something.

但让我们在广告后继续讨论球类游戏和电脑游戏。

But let's get onto that after the break, ball games and computer games.

你好。

Hello.

欢迎回到《其余皆历史》。

Welcome back to the rest is history.

我们正在讨论作为娱乐形式的历史，特别是游戏。

We're talking about history as entertainment, particularly games.

多米尼克，你在这期节目的开头提到了《大富翁》。

And Dominic, you opened this episode by talking about Monopoly.

是的，我提了。

I did.

是的。

Yeah.

毫不掩饰地。

Shamelessly.

那么《大富翁》严格来说是一款关于历史的游戏吗？

So Monopoly is is that strictly a game about history?

它难道不是一款关于资本主义的游戏吗？

Isn't it a game about capitalism?

事实上，它确实是。

It's actually it is.

嗯，它实际上是关于某种特定形式的资本主义的游戏。

Well, it's it's a game about a particular version of capitalism.

而且它确实是一款具有历史根源的游戏。

So and it's and it is a historically rooted game.

关于垄断的起源有很多争论，但据我们所知，它大约始于1903年，最初是一款反资本主义的游戏。

So there are all sorts of arguments about the origins of monopoly, but as far as we can tell, it began in about nineteen o three, and it was an anti capitalist game.

它被称为乔治主义游戏。

It was what's called a Georgist game.

美国有一位名叫亨利·乔治的人，他提出了许多关于地主制度、反对地主制度的理论。

So there was a guy called Henry George in America who had all these theories about landlordism, about fighting landlordism.

这是美国的进步时代，人们试图遏制资本主义的过度膨胀，比如卡内基那种肆无忌惮的铁路式美国资本主义。

So this is the progressive era in America where people are sort of taming the excesses of capitalism of the sort of Carnegie, you know, sort of rampant railroad kind of American school of capitalism.

而垄断游戏的初衷是为了说明地主制度有多糟糕。

And the point of monopoly was to illustrate how bad landlordism is.

换句话说，如果你拥有大量地产，你就可以征税、压榨租户，让自己变得富有，而他们永远无法获胜。

So in other words, if you've got all this property, you can tax you can you can you can you can squeeze your your tenants, and you'll become rich, and they will never win.

这就是它的目的：如果你没有拥有所有这些财产，你就永远赢不了。

That was the point of it, that you would never win if you didn't get all this, you know, you didn't get all this property.

然后，大富翁这个游戏逐渐演变，围绕它的专利发生了激烈争斗，最终被玩具公司接手，并在大萧条时期转变为一款资本主义游戏。

And then, basically, monopoly evolved and was there was a big battle over the the the patents for it, and it ended up being taken up by the sort of toy companies and turned into a capitalist game in the depression.

所以它不再是为了展示这种制度有多邪恶。

So it's no longer about showing you how evil it is.

现在它变成了一种炫耀胜利、赞美自己赢取财富的游戏。

Now it's about glorying in it, glorying in your winnings.

从那以后，它显然取得了巨大的成功。

And, obviously, it's been very successful since then.

但有趣的是，这个游戏一直被不断重新诠释其政治含义。

But what's interesting is it is the game that's permanently been reinterpreted politically.

因此，曾出现过冷战时期的共产主义版本。

So there were cold war kind of communist versions.

一些听众告诉我们，东德异见者曾制作过一个叫‘官僚opoly’的版本，用以讽刺东德体制。

Some of our listeners sent in there was a version done by East German dissidents called bureaucratopoly, which was mocking the East German system.

然后匈牙利共产党也有他们自己的版本，叫《精明预算》。

And then the Hungarian communists, I mean, they had a version of their own called budget smartly.

匈牙利语的原名是gazdalkodj okosan，我的匈牙利语。

The actual title in Hungarian is gazdal kodj okasan, has my magiar.

我们需要乔纳森·威尔逊来

We need Jonathan Wilson here to

是的。

We do.

是的。

Yeah.

他会同意这一点的。

He would agree on this.

他会纠正我的。

He would put me right.

这一点毫无疑问。

There's no doubt about that.

所以，是的，垄断本身就是一个伟大的……我的意思是，大概我们的垄断历史学家们将其视为二十世纪的一种地图。

So, yes, a monopoly in itself is a great his I mean, presumably, our historians of monopoly who see it as a sort of map of the twentieth century.

好的。

Okay.

因此，这意味着它最初是一款反资本主义的棋盘游戏，但很快便演变为关于征服敌人并尽可能变得富有和强大的游戏。

So the implication of that is that it begins as an anti capitalist board game, but very rapidly, it becomes all about conquering your enemies and becoming as rich and powerful as possible.

是的。

Yeah.

就像大多数游戏一样。

Like most games.

就此主题而言，我们有一个来自名叫‘Dick of Axe’的观众的问题，他说：从《文明》到《风险》，再到《欧陆风云》，人类似乎有一种无法抗拒的冲动，就是要将地图涂成单一颜色。

And on on that theme, we have a question from the splendidly named Dick of Axe, and he says, From civilization to risk to Europa Universalists, there is some irresistible urge in humans, it seems, to paint a map one color.

不管你玩的是球类游戏，还是当罗马皇帝，都无所谓。

Doesn't matter if you're playing a ball game or if you're Roman emperor.

你同意吗？

Do you agree?

我的意思是，无论是球类游戏还是电子游戏，从历史题材的游戏来看，普遍都涉及大量的征服元素。

I mean, definitely, when it to both the ball games and computer games, historically themed games, by and large, do seem to involve an awful lot of conquest.

它们就是关于征服的。

They are about conquest.

我刚刚听到这个问题才突然想到，我确信去殖民化桌游的运动只能是当然的。

Is there not it's only just occurred to me hearing that question that I'm sure the movement to decolonize board games can only be Yeah.

会的。

Will.

所以

So

我的意思是，风险、外交，所有这些桌游，不都是在建立帝国吗？

I mean, risk, diplomacy, all these kind of board games, they're all about creating empires, aren't they?

还有击败并消灭你的对手。

And defeat and smiting your opponents.

我的意思是，很难想象一个不涉及这些元素的游戏，因为这正是游戏的乐趣所在。

I mean, it's hard to imagine a game that didn't involve that because that's the that's the pleasure of games.