41. 波斯

希腊历史学家希罗多德曾写道，波斯人的教育从五岁开始，到二十岁结束。

The education of a boy, wrote the Greek historian Herodotus about the Persians, will begin at the age of five and finish when he is 20.

但在整个这段时间里，他们只会学习三件事：如何骑马、如何射箭，以及如何说真话。

But in all that time, he will only ever be taught three things, how to ride a horse, how to fire a bow, and how to tell the truth.

那么，今天《历史的其余部分》这一集的论点是，实际上波斯人教的东西远不止这些。

Well, the thesis of today's episode of The Rest is History is that actually the Persians taught a lot more than that.

事实上，今天在西方，甚至在二十一世纪，我们许多理所当然视为当然的事物，其根源最终都可以追溯到波斯。

Actually, in fact, that huge amounts today, even in the twenty first century here in the West, that we take for granted, that it derives ultimately from Persia.

我想，这个观点可能乍看之下并不明显，因为波斯人在大众想象中，并不像其他古代文明——比如埃及、希腊或罗马——那样占据显著地位。

And I guess this is a thesis that may not seem immediately obvious because the Persians don't really tend to occupy the kind of outsized role that other ancient civilizations do in the popular imagining civilizations like the Egyptians or the Greeks or the Romans.

但就我个人而言，我研究、撰写和思考古代历史越多，就越觉得波斯就像一口巨大的地下泉源，无数条河流与溪流，若追溯其源头，跨越数个世纪乃至千年，最终都会发现源自于此。

But speaking for myself, the more I've studied antiquity, written about it, thought about it, the more I've come to think that Persia is like some great kind of underground spring from which infinite numbers of rivers and streams, when you trace them back over the course of the centuries and the millennia, turn out to have sprung from.

多米尼克，作为一名现代历史学家，我不知道你是否认同这一点。

Dominic, as a modern historian, I don't know whether you would accept that.

我的意思是，甚至1979年的伊朗革命，某种程度上也扮演了类似的角色，不是吗？

I mean, I guess even the Iranian revolution of nineteen seventy nine is slightly plays that role, doesn't it?

我完全同意，汤姆。

I think it absolutely does, Tom.

我认为，实际上，我们在西方常常会忽略伊朗。

I think, actually, when you we in the West sort of tend to forget a little bit about Iran.

尤其是，我们在二十世纪总是把注意力集中在俄罗斯和中国身上，作为西方的对手。

We're and in particular, we're fixated in the twentieth century on Russia and China, I suppose, as the sort of antagonists of the West.

但在我看来，1979年的伊朗革命是当代历史的一个重要转折点。

But Iran, the Iranian revolution in 1979 seems to me one of the great foundational moments of the contemporary era.

这是阿亚图拉崛起、激进伊斯兰兴起，以及其向外传播的时刻。

So it's the moment that's, you know, the the rise of the Ayatollahs, of radical Islam, and then the the way in which that was exported.

伊朗把自己称为美国——这个‘大撒旦’。

And and Iran's sort of status as, you know, this I mean, Iran talks to The United States as as great Satan.

但从很多方面来看，自1979年以来，伊朗不正是世俗西方眼中的‘大撒旦’吗？

But in many ways, Iran has been the great Satan, hasn't it, for the secular West ever since 1979?

是的。

Yeah.

而且对很多人来说，如果你提到伊朗，你往往会想到裹着黑色面纱的女性、留着长胡子的老者，指着人说：去美国吧。

And and and I think that for lots of people, if you say Iran, you tend to think of of women shrouded in black veils and old men with long beards wagging their fingers and saying, come to America.

而这可能会掩盖波斯作为世界真正伟大而丰富的文明之一的事实。

And and perhaps that can obscure the way in which Persia is one of the truly great, rich civilizations of the world.

是的。

Yeah.

我同意。

I buy that.

我同意。

I buy that.

我们有一位嘉宾，我相信他会认同这一点。

We we we have we have someone who I'm sure will agree with that.

嗯，确实有人对此很了解。

Well, somebody actually knows about it.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

阿里·安萨里，圣安德鲁斯大学伊朗研究教授，著有《伊朗简明导论》。

Ali Ansari, who is a professor of Iranian studies at Saint Andrews University, less, author of a very short introduction to Iran.

阿里，非常感谢你前来参加。

Ali, thanks so much for coming on.

我想你会同意这一点。

I guess that you would agree.

我的意思是，我知道你同意，因为我们已经讨论过这个观点，即几乎所有事物都源自波斯。

I mean, I I know you agree because we've talked about it, this idea that essentially everything comes from Persia.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

一切都源自波斯。

Everything comes from Persia.

你一定会赞同这个说法。

You you would be happy to go along with that.

我的意思是，你知道，我认为伊朗人或波斯人——我们可以讨论一下我们使用的术语。

Well, I mean, you know, I I I think that the, you know, the Iranians or the Persians, I mean, we we can discuss about the the the terms that we use.

我基本上认为，他们对人类文明的贡献被严重低估和忽视了。

I Basically think that their contribution to human civilization has largely been underrated and largely ignored.

正如你们两位所说，由于看待伊朗的视角主要来自1979年的伊斯兰革命，这极大地影响了我们的理解，并渗透到我们对伊朗的方方面面认知中，而实际上，伊朗或波斯人显然拥有更多值得分享的东西，我想这么说。

Precisely, think as both of you have said, because the prism of looking at Iran has been really via the Islamic revolution of nineteen seventy nine, it's very much colored our understanding and it sort of permeates everything we think about Iran, whereas actual the natural fact, of course, Iran or or or the Persians are, you know, have so much more to offer, I would say.

我的意思是，

I mean,

我可以问你一个问题吗？

the Can I ask you a question?

当然可以。

Sure.

我谈到了伊朗。

I talked about Iran.

汤姆谈到了波斯。

Tom talked about Persia.

没错。

That's right.

他们是同一个东西，还是只是恰好位于同一片

Are they the same, or are they just are they two different things that happen to have been in the

地理区域的两个不同事物？还是存在连续性？

same geographical location or is there a continuity?

不，确实存在连续性。我认为，如果我作为伊朗研究学者有什么重大成就的话，那就是终于说服了人们：在西方记录中，伊朗和波斯确实是同一回事。

No, there is a continuity and I think, you know, hopefully my great achievement, if I have one as an academic of Iran, is to finally convince people that actually Iran and Persia are indeed the same thing, certainly in the Western record.

因此，当我们谈论伊朗时，伊朗这个名字实际上是当地原住民赋予这个国家、领土，甚至可以说是文化的名称。

So, when we're looking at Iran, Iran is the name actually given to the country and the territory, the political territory, or even the culture if you will, by the indigenous peoples.

而波斯，正如汤姆所知，是古希腊人和古罗马人对伊朗某个特定民族或部落的称呼和反映。

Persia is really, as Tom will know, is the sort of Greek Roman sort of rendition and the reflection of a particular people or tribe of Iran.

所以，如果从层级来看，有一句非常贴切的话被归于大流士大帝，他说：我家族是阿契美尼德人，部落是波斯人，而民族上则是伊朗人。

So if you look at a hierarchy, I mean there's rather a good quote ascribed or attributed to Darius the Great who basically says that I am an Archaemenid by family, a Persian by tribe, and an Iranian in terms of my peoples.

所以存在一种

So there's a

一种

sort of

三重划分，这种划分相当有效。

a tripartite division which works quite well.

我的意思是，显然，他两千到两千五百年前所说的那些概念，与我们今天所理解的截然不同，但即便如此，它仍为我们提供了关于这些概念之间关系的洞察。

I mean obviously, you know, what he means by those things back two thousand, two and a half thousand years ago is obviously vastly different to what we might understand today, but nonetheless it offers us an insight on how those relate.

我认为，太多人——尤其是西方历史学家——混淆了这一点，他们误以为波斯是与伊朗不同的地方，认为伊朗实际上是二十世纪才被创造出来的。

And I think far too many people, Western historians in some ways, confuse the fact they sort of think that Persia is a different place to Iran and that Iran sort of basically was invented in the twentieth century.

大多数伊朗人会对这种说法感到震惊，而我们所称的波斯人，实际上也自称为伊朗人。

And most Iranians will be horrified at this and most you know, the people who we call the Persians call themselves Iranians.

所以我认为这一点非常明确，为了避免在我们进入所谓的十大亮点之前产生任何歧义，我还应该明确指出，'伊朗人'这个术语与十九世纪欧洲种族主义所使用的'雅利安人'等概念毫无关系。

So I think I think that's very clear, and I think for the avoidance of doubt before we go forward to our top 10 hits in a sense, I should also make clear that the term Iranian has nothing to do with the nineteenth century, European racial connotation of Aryans and this sort thing.

我的意思是，这基本上是一个语言学上的区分和定义。

I mean it's basically a linguistic distinction, linguistic definition that comes out and is basically applied.

我想，汤姆可能会纠正我这一点，但我认为，对许多伊朗人而言，从历史角度看，在亚洲，'伊朗'这个词原本就像法兰克人所理解的那样，意指贵族出身、自由出身之类的意思。

Think, and Tom will probably correct me actually on this, but I think for many Iranians in a historical basis, in Asia, I mean Iran simply meant as the Franks do basically, know noble born, free born, this sort thing.

所以这没什么，其实就是这么回事。

So it's nothing, know, it's really little more than that.

那么阿里，关于如何准确定义伊朗或波斯，我能引用一下那位伟大的伊朗学者本·阿弗莱克的话吗？

Well Ali, on the topic of of how exactly we define Iran or Persia, could I, quote something from that great scholar of Iran, Ben Affleck?

汤姆，你

Tom, you

找到了你的

found your

水平。

level.

本·本说，波斯在建筑和语言上与阿拉伯中东地区大不相同。

Ben Ben says Persia is very different from the Arab Middle East in terms of architecture and language.

尽管我们常把它们视为一个庞大的中东地区，但实际上波斯非常独特。

Even though we think of them as one big Middle Eastern area, in truth, Persia is quite distinct.

所以

So

是的。

Yes.

多么

What a

精彩的引子啊

great teaser to

让你的思绪飞扬。

your mind.

让我们来深入探讨一下，因为波斯、伊朗，无论你怎么称呼它，都是一个广阔的高原。

Let's just but but let's just tease that out because Persia, Iran, whatever you wanna call it, is this great upland plateau.

没错。

That's right.

你有扎格罗斯山脉，然后沿着扎格罗斯山脉往下，就进入了伊拉克和美索不达米亚的平原地带。

You've got the Zagros Mountains, and then you go down the Zagros Mountains, you're into the kind of the flatlands of of Iraq, of Mesopotamia.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那么，从历史上看，波斯与近东其他地区的关系一直是怎样的？

What what what what historically what's the relationship been between Persia and the rest of of the Near East?

嗯，从历史角度看，我们可以把伊朗人或伊朗民族视为一种语言群体。

Well, mean, historically, I mean, you look at the the Iranians or the Iranian peoples as we describe as a sort of a let's take them as a linguistic grouping.

显然，他们拥有独特的伊朗语，属于印欧语系，这意味着波斯语——为了避免混淆——实际上与我们所说的欧洲语言更为接近。

I mean, obviously, they have a distinct Iranian language affiliated to an Indo European heritage which means that actually the language that the Persian language, not to confuse matters, but the Persian language spoken by the Iranians is basically much closer to the European languages that we speak.

你可以从母亲、父亲、兄弟这些词看出来，比如madar、pedar、baradar，类似这样的词。

And you see that in sort of mother, father, you know, brother, madar, pedar, barodad, this sort of thing.

因此，这种语言上的差异其实非常有趣。

So it's actually quite interesting in terms of that linguistic distinction.

当然，在七世纪阿拉伯穆斯林哈里发国崛起之前，伊朗人曾建立过三个主要的帝国，这意味着他们在中东的存在远早于阿拉伯人。

And of course the Iranians occupying and having three sort of major imperial empires prior to the rise of the Arab Muslim caliphates of the seventh century meant that they had a certain presence in the Middle East, have to say, long before the Arabs.

那么，请列出这三个帝国，给我们讲讲古代历史的脉络。

So just give out those three empires, just give us a span of the ancient history.

如果从时间顺序来看，第一个波斯帝国就是西方人最熟悉的那个，即阿契美尼德波斯帝国，它覆盖了从希腊到印度河、南至埃及的广大地区，等等。

So basically if you look at, to give us some sort of chronological parameters, we have the first Persian empire which actually is the empire that most people in the West would be familiar with, is the Archaemenid Persian empire which is the one that covers, you know, everything from Greece over to the Indus and down to Egypt and so on and so

继续。

forth.

在马拉松战役中失败的是哪些？

The ones that lose at Marathon?

是的，但我要说，他们在温泉关赢了。

Well yeah, but win at Thermopylae if I might say so.

是的，就是。

Yes, was.

那就是居鲁士大帝、大流士、薛西斯。

That's Cyrus the Great, Darius, Xerxes.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

薛西斯，就是我们从圣经和古典文献中熟知的那些人。

Xerxes, all the people that, you know, we know from our biblical and classical experiences.

我们之后肯定会再聊聊他们的一些事。

And and we'll talk a little bit about more about them, I'm sure, afterwards.

当然，你引用的希罗多德那句话，我应该提醒一下，希罗多德严格来说是波斯的臣民，对吧，汤姆？

And of course, the quote you gave from Herodotus, I mean I should remind us, you know, of course Herodotus is technically a Persian subject, isn't he Tom?

所以他算是个叛徒，但他是现代史学之父——不，是历史学之父。

So I mean he's a of a renegade, but he's, you know, he's and the father of modern not modern, but the father of history.

这是第一个帝国。

So that's the first empire.

这个帝国持续了大约两百年，最终被亚历山大大帝推翻，我们也可以聊聊亚历山大在波斯世界留下的遗产。

That's the empire that lasts for about two hundred years and is basically overthrown by Alexander the Great, and we can, you know, also talk a little bit about Alexander's legacy in the Persian world.

当然，结果并不全是正面的，这点你不会感到意外。

Not all positive, you won't be surprised to know.

在一段希腊化时期的插曲之后，一个新的王朝崛起，在西方语言中我们称之为帕提亚人。

And then subsequent to a sort of a Hellenic interlude, you then get the rise of a new dynasty which in the western lingo we know as the Parthians.

帕提亚人是持续时间最长的王朝，高度分散，同样占据着伊朗高原的广大地区，正是在帕提亚时期，首次与罗马及罗马共和国发生了冲突，随后自然也与罗马帝国产生了对抗。

And the Parthians are actually the longest lasting of the dynasties, quite decentralized, again occupying much of the Iranian plateau, and it's with the Parthians that you get the first sort of contest with the Romans and the Roman Republic, and then the Roman Empire obviously subsequently.

帕提亚人持续了大约从二月到二月，随后被波斯历史上最具影响力的前伊斯兰王朝所取代，那就是萨珊王朝。

The Parthians last from about, you know February to around February and then they are subsequently succeeded by probably the most influential of the pre Islamic Persian empires, as far as Iran is concerned, and that is the Sassanians.

萨珊王朝声称自己在高原上拥有更悠久的传承，一直持续到七世纪中期，直到被阿拉伯穆斯林军队推翻。

And the Sassanian dynasty claims a much longer heritage on the plateau and lasts really then until the mid seventh century, until the overthrow by the Arab Muslim armies.

但实际上，正是萨珊王朝比之前的王朝更深刻地塑造了历史格局。

But it's the Sassanians that really set the scene far more than the previous dynasties in actual fact.

他们是第一个整理历史记录的王朝。

They're the ones that compile a sort of historical record.

正是他们首次将这片政治疆域命名为‘伊朗’。

They're the ones that actually give the name Iran to that political territory.

如果我要说我的第一个观点——如果可以这么说的话——那就是有一种说法，我相当乐意接受，虽然并非完全不加批判，但确实认同：伊朗是自古代延续至今、具有某种程度连续性的、最早、甚至可能是第一个领土界定的政治实体。

And if I was to say my first first, if I can put it that way, is that there is a suggestion which I'm sort of happy to accept really, not entirely uncritically but certainly accept, that Iran is one of the, if not the first, territorially defined political unit that has a degree of continuity to it from the period of antiquity to the present.

因此，由萨珊王朝建立的‘伊朗帝国’，基本上构成了我们今天所知的现代伊朗的文化疆域，尽管其政治疆域显然比现在更大。

So the Iran that is set up by the Sassanians, the Empire of Iran, is basically, you know, the sort of cultural territory, if not entirely the political territory because it was bigger it is bigger obviously than what we have today that we find in modern Iran.

所以伊朗是第一个国家吗？

So Iran is the first country?

嗯，这正是他们的说法。

Well, mean, would be the claim.

我的意思是，显然当我们深入探讨时，对于伊朗人来说，根据历史文献，伊朗是第一个王国。

I mean, obviously, when we get into it, you know, Iran, as far as the Iranians are concerned in historical books is the first kingdom.

我的意思是，这是人类对自然的首次统治。

I mean it's the first dominion of man over nature.

但这很大程度上属于神话遗产，而伊朗民族主义者非常热衷于推广这一说法。

But that's largely, you know, obviously part of the mythical heritage, it's one that Iranian nationalists are very very keen to promote.

有些年代追溯得非常久远，完全不切实际，但我很乐意和你聊聊。

Some of the chronology goes really quite far back and wholly unrealistic, but I'm happy to sort of chat though.

你知道，他们说的不只是两千五百年，而是要追溯得更久远。

You know, they say it's not just two and a half thousand years, mean let's get it back further.

你可以坐下来和一些伊朗人聊聊，我们能把时间再往前推。

You can sit down and talk to a number of Iranians you know and we can extend back.

实际上，在二十世纪初，有一位民族主义历史学家的论述相当著名，我觉得挺有意思，他通过伊朗的神话史诗《列王纪》推算伊朗王国的长度，得出结论说这个王国可以追溯到一百亿年前。

There was quite a famous account actually in the early twentieth century when a nationalist historiographer which I was found quite entertaining calculated the length of the kingdom of Iran going back through the mythical great epic poem of Iran, the book of kings, and he calculated that the length of the kingdom could be traced back ten billion years.

显然有人指出，这甚至早于世界的创造，所以我的意思是，这些都是些

And obviously someone else pointed out this predated the creation of the world, you know, so I mean, these are things

这让罗马人自愧不如。

That puts the Romans in their place.

我知道。

I know.

没错。

That's right.

所以我想

So I

我的意思是，如果你接受这一点，那么一切显然都起源于伊朗。

mean, if you accept that, then everything does begin in Iran, obviously.

我的意思是

I mean

但是，阿里，显然，这使得情况变得复杂，因为显然存在着一种强烈的历史连续性。

But, Ali, obviously, what complicates the picture in terms of the cont because clearly, there is this incredible sense of continuity.

伊朗最后一位沙阿曾在波斯波利斯——这座伟大的阿契美尼德首都——举行盛大的庆典，还从巴黎空运来厨师，搞了一场奢华的盛会。

And the the last Shah of Iran famously had great celebrations at Persepolis, the great Achaemenid capital, and he jetted over cooks from Paris and kind of great extravaganza.

然后，当然，我们知道他后来遭遇了什么。

And then, of course, we know what happened to him.

我认为，这种连续性图景的复杂之处在于，公元七世纪的萨珊帝国在阿拉伯人到来之前就崩溃了。

And I suppose what complicates this picture of continuity is that the Sasanian empire in the seventh century collapses before the Arabs.

没错。

That's right.

他们引入了伊斯兰教。

They introduce Islam.

没错。

That's right.

伊斯兰教在多大程度上是一场彻底的断裂？在多大程度上，伊朗文化与伊斯兰教达成妥协，并形成真正的连续性？

And to what extent is Islam, a radical rupture, and to what extent does Iranian culture come to an accommodation with Islam and there is a genuine sense of continuity?

我的最爱说法是，每当我想让我的阿拉伯同事哑口无言时，我都会说：被俘的波斯俘虏了她的征服者。

Well, I mean, my favorite phrase in all this and always always to disarm my Arab colleagues is to say, know, captive Persia took prisoner her conquerors.

我从未真正知道是谁最先说的这句话，但我很想把它归功于自己。

I've never actually known who actually said that first, but I'd like to sort of lay claim to it.

本质上，这种观点认为伊朗历史上发生了一系列断裂，从亚历山大大帝开始一直延续至今，阿拉伯人的征服显然是一次严重的心理和意识形态上的断裂，带来了新的宗教、新的历法等等。

It's essentially this notion that there have been a series of ruptures in Iranian history, clearly from Alexander the Great all the way through, and you get the Arabs are obviously in the Muslim conquest is a very serious almost psychological ideological rupture obviously and bringing a new religion, new calendar, on and so forth.

但此外，十三世纪的蒙古入侵在社会经济层面也造成了特别严重的破坏。

But then also you have the Mongol invasions of the thirteenth century that are particularly devastating on a socio economic level.

但在所有这三种情况下，你都能看到波斯人的文化自信——我现在会交替使用这些术语，以便真正让我们的观众感到困惑。

But in all three cases, I mean you find this sort of cultural confidence of the Persians and I'll use those terms interchangeably now in order to really confuse our audience.

这种波斯文化自信贯穿始终，面对阿拉伯人时，伊朗人基本上将伊斯兰教从一种本质上属于阿拉伯的宗教，转变为一种全球性的普世宗教，其中非阿拉伯人同样具有同等地位，因此。

That sort of Persian cultural confidence comes through and with the Arabs what you find is that the Iranians basically take Islam and turn it from what is essentially an Arab religion into a global universal religion in which non Arabs are equally valid and therefore

所以，阿里，你的意思是伊斯兰教实际上是波斯的吗？

So Ali what you're saying is Islam is actually Persian?

嗯，有一些观点，但说实话，这样说有点过头了。

Well there are some, I think that would be pushing it a bit to be perfectly honest.

伊朗有不少人确实认为，如今我们所见的这种全球普世主义的伊斯兰教，实际上已经被去阿拉伯化了。

There are a number of people in Iran who would certainly claim that the Islam that you see today in terms of a global universalist religion is really something which has been de Arabized

并且波斯化。

and Persianized.

是的，某种程度上是这样。

Yes, mean to some extent.

我的意思是，何必纠结呢？

I mean why quibble?

但这确实是其中一种观点。

But that's certainly one of the views.

我的意思是，我本人未必会认同这一点，但显然这是一种被所有人信仰的宗教。

I mean I wouldn't necessarily, I have to say, subscribe to that, but it's obviously a religion adhered by all.

当然，这种论点在什叶派和其他方面也能看到，但在蒙古人身上也同样明显。

And that's the argument though, of course, you see that with Shiism as well and other things, but you see it also with the Mongols.

伊朗是蒙古帝国中唯一一个将蒙古人融入波斯文化的地方。

Iran is the only part of the Mongol empire that basically absorbed the Mongols within Persian culture.

在中国，他们驱逐了蒙古人，但在伊朗，人们 somehow 就把他们吸收了。你仍然可以看到许多蒙古和突厥征服的痕迹。

In China they expelled the Mongols, see, but the Iranians somehow just absorbed them You still, you know, and you still see lots of traces of the Mongol, and Turkic conquest in Iran.

阿里，你给了我们一份庞大的清单，列出了你认为波斯人几乎发明的一切，让我们必须跪下来向波斯人顶礼膜拜。

Ali, you've given us this huge list of things that you think that Persia basically invented, that for which we should be getting down on our knees and groveling before the Persians

我不会这么说，我们还是很宽宏大量的。

I wouldn't go that far, we're very magnanimous.

不，

No,

在伟大的文明面前自我挫败

frustrating ourselves before the great

我觉得你至少应该承认一点，波斯实际上是西方的接生婆，不是吗？

great I just think that you know there are a number of I mean the one thing which I think you should acknowledge is that basically, you know, Persia is the midwife to the West, isn't it?

我的意思是，如果没有

I mean, there would be

就没有西方

no West

没有波斯人。

without the Persians.

那么，阿里，关于那个主题，是的。

So so, Ali, on that theme Yeah.

你准备了一份关于什么的清单？

You've prepared a list of of what?

关于最重要的

Of top

波斯人献给世界的十大事物？

10 things that the Persians have given the world?

我的意思是，我不得不说我觉得被10这个数字限制得很厉害，但是让让

I mean, I I have to say I felt very restricted by 10, but let let

在我看来，在我看来

There look to me there look to

汤姆，我觉得这清单上的东西不止10项。

me to be more than 10 on this list, Tom.

是的。

Yeah.

因为有一些子集，对吧？真的有。

Because there's some there's certain subsets, aren't there, really?

基本上，阿里是为10个播客做准备来的。

Basically, Ali has come prepared for 10 podcasts.

好的。

Okay.

那我们还有多久？

Well, we how long have we got?

我们还剩大约五分钟吗？

We got, what, five minutes left?

我想这一半大概有十分钟吧？

Ten minutes, I guess, for for this half?

我们马上把这些列出来。

We're gonna rattle these off.

好的。

Right.

那我们开始吧。

So so let's kick off.

你第一个选什么？

What's what's your first selection?

我的意思是，我觉得

Well, I mean, I I I think

我想我们可以先开始

we can I think we can start

从波斯是第一个王国这个议题入手，我在这里引用那位伟大的德国哲学家黑格尔的观点来提醒我们：历史始于波斯人？

with that sort of issue of of of Persia being the first kingdom, and and basically I will elicit here the support of that great great German philosopher Hegel to remind us that history begins with the Persians?

因此，我们对历史作为某种进步运动、或者说启蒙进程的理解，实际上是从波斯人开始的。

So our understanding of history as a progressive movement in a sense, of enlightenment if you will, really begins with the Persians.

不过，就像所有好的史学一样，我们不太愿意引用黑格尔接下来的那句话，即历史始于波斯人，然后就抛下了他们。

Now, like all good historiography, we don't like to quote the next clause that Hegel puts out, that you know it starts with the Persians and then left them.

我不打算用他接下来的那句话。

I wouldn't want to use his next phrase.

我们还是聚焦在第一部分吧。

Let's stick with the first part.

但我认为，伊朗作为人类第一个王国、第一个主宰自然的政权，是历史真正开始的地方，正如我之前对多米尼克说的，这个有明确领土界限的国家，在古代意义上，也是‘西方’这一概念的助产士。

But I think this idea of Iran as the first kingdom, first dominion of man over nature, the first place where history begins effectively, and you know as I was saying to Dominic earlier, this territorially delimited state which is also the midwife in a sense, in an ancient sense to that concept of the West.

所以，正如你们两位所说，我们确实没有像对待罗马人、希腊人，甚至巴比伦人或埃及人那样，将波斯视为一个伟大的文明。

So it's interesting as you both said, know we don't have this notion of Persia as a great civilization the same way as we have with the Romans and the Greeks and even the Babylonians or Egyptians to be honest.

但无论如何，我们目前只是最佳配角，而我希望将我们从最佳配角真正提升到舞台中央。

But nonetheless we are there as best supporting actor and I would like to move us from best supporting actor really to center stage.

坦白说，我们应该获得最佳男主角奖。

I think we should be getting the best actor award frankly.

阿里，这一切是从居鲁士大帝开始的吗？

Ali, did that all kick off with Cyrus the Great?

他是不是实际上创造了波斯？

Was he the person who basically created Persia?

是的，这要看你问谁了。

Yes, depending who you talk to.

我的意思是，是的，根据大众的理解，正如所提到的，国父基本上就是居鲁士大帝，他将米底人和波斯人联合起来，建立了第一个伊朗帝国。这个波斯帝国从五月开始，到什么时候呢，汤姆，大概是三月左右，最终崩溃了。

I mean, yes, I I think in the popular understanding, the father of the nation, as was noted, is basically Cyrus the Great who basically binds the Medes and the Persians together into the first of these Iranian Empires, And this Persian Empire from, you know, May to when would it be Tom, March, something Yeah, like collapse.

这是第一个波斯帝国，它基本上确立了——我要补充的是——第一个普世帝国。

That's the first of the Persian Empires which basically establishes, and you know, I would add to that, the first universal empire.

是的。

Yeah.

我完全同意波斯人是第一个将帝国统治构想为某种普世体系的民族。

I so I completely agree about the idea that the the Persians are the first people who formulate their imperial rule as something universal

没错。

That's right.

而且确实，这种统治反映了宇宙的模式。

And and indeed moral, that it reflects the kind of patterning of the universe.

当然。

Absolutely.

但为了稍微扮演一下反方观点。

But just slightly to play devil's advocate.

所以居鲁士大帝，他的名声极其显赫。

So Cyrus the Great, he his fame is is immense.

他之所以出名，是因为他征服的两个人对他大加赞扬。

And he's famous because he is hugely praised by two people who he conquers.

其中之一是希腊人。

One of them, the Greeks.

希腊人认为他是伟大人物的典范。

And the Greeks think he's the model of of of a great man.

没错。

That's right.

另一个当然是犹太人。

And the other, of course, is the Jews.

犹太人认为他就是弥赛亚。

And the the Jews and the he's he's the messiah.

他是受膏者，以赛亚也如此称颂他。

He's the anointed one, praised as such by Isaiah.

但我们从波斯人那里真正保留下来的，只有墓志铭之类的文字。

But the the all we really have from the Persians is kind of tomb inscriptions.

那么，波斯人并没有像希腊人和犹太人那样实际记录历史，他们又在什么意义上创造了历史呢？

So in what sense are the Persians inventing history when they're not actually writing it down in the way that the Greeks and the Jews are?

汤姆，你提出的这一点非常有意思。

Well that's a very interesting point you've made there Tom.

我认为关键在于，我们必须理解波斯人对历史的一个贡献，那就是理解历史是如何被书写的。

I think that the main thing is that we have to understand is that one of the contributions to history that I think the Persians make is if you understand the way in which history is written.

我的意思是，一方面存在神话叙事，另一方面则是我们所谓的史实叙事。

I mean one of the things that know are sort of mythological narratives and what we might call historical narratives.

在希腊化时期之后，进入帕提亚和萨珊时期，伊朗人倾向于撰写一种主要基于神话的历史。

The Iranians certainly after the Hellenic period and into the Parthians and the Sasanian period tend to sort of write a history that is largely mythologically based.

我的意思是，他们构建了一套关于自身起源的神话叙事。

I mean they derive a mythological narrative of their descent.

有趣的是，阿契美尼德王朝在这一历史叙述中，几乎被彻底抹去了。

Now the interesting thing with that is that certainly the Archaemenids tend to sort of get erased from that history in a very detailed sense.

但他们确实存在于神话叙事中。

But they do exist in the mythological narratives.

他们确实存在，库鲁什（波斯语中的居鲁士）也出现在许多这些神话叙事中。

They are there, and the figure of Qurosh, which is the Persian for Cyrus, does appear in a number of these mythological narratives.

然而，在这些叙事中，他被降到了其他世界国王之下。

He is however somewhat demoted in that narrative under the world kings that exist.

所以确实存在一种历史叙事，只是它不是我们所熟悉的历史叙事，而是一种更偏向神话建构、充满民间传说的深刻历史叙事，而不是我们通常理解的那种学科意义上的历史。

So there is a historical narrative, it's just not a historical narrative that we would recognize, but it's a very profound historical narrative that is more mythological in a sense in its construction and full of folklore than the history, you know, the history we would have in terms of of of the discipline that we would understand it and you we collectively would understand it.

但我认为，这只不过是一种不同类型的历史，如果我可以这么说的话。

But I I think it's just a different type of history, if I can put it that way.

我正在努力，但希望你能回应我的观点。

I'm trying hard, but, hopefully you will answer my argument.

阿里，给我们讲讲你清单上的一些内容，你认为波斯人

Ali, take us through some of the things on your list, the things that you think the Persians

嗯，我认为有好几种

Well, mean, think there are a number of

我试着将这些内容进行分类。

things that I've sort of tried to divide.

所以，如果我们看一下，我已经讨论了它的政治层面，但还有其他我认为非常重要的方面。

So if we look at I've sort of dealt with the political side of it, but there are other things that I think are quite important.

一些对宗教的贡献。

Some of the contributions to religion.

我的意思是，我们已经提到过波斯人对伊斯兰教的贡献，但我认为波斯人对宗教和宗教思想的贡献非常显著。

I mean we've mentioned about the Persian contributions to Islam obviously, but I think the Persian contributions to religion and religious thought have been pretty impressive.

尤其是通过琐罗亚斯德教，琐罗亚斯德教是伊斯兰教之前波斯或伊朗的宗教，它提供了许多观念。

Certainly through Zoroastrianism, and Zoroastrianism was the pre Islamic religion of Persia or Iran, and Zoroastrianism provided a number of ideas.

我知道我可能会遭到汤姆的反驳，但让我们先不谈这个。

I know I'm going to get some pushback from Tom, but let's No

你没有，我完全同意，我完全同意。

you're not, I completely agree, I completely agree.

你知道，从一些相当简单的事情来看——当然，这些是我们今天习以为常的事，这也说明了它的影响有多深远。

You know in terms of, I mean some fairly sort of simple things, well things that we take for granted today of course which just shows how effective it's been.

比如末世论和精神救世主的概念，这些都具有明显的琐罗亚斯德教特征，然后它们又与犹太教传统交织在一起，最终融入了基督教。

This notion of the end of times for instance and a spiritual redeemer, these are quite zoroastrian, know, and then they're sort of bound in with that sort of Judaic heritage that sort of then come come through in Christianity.

是的。

Yeah.

阿里，因为我们应该提到，犹大和耶路撒冷的人被巴比伦人掳到巴比伦。

Ali, because because we should say that the the the people of Judah, of Jerusalem, get taken by the Babylonians to to Babylon.

没错。

That's right.

我们在巴比伦的河边哭泣。

By the rivers of Babylon weeping.

犹太人被囚禁在巴比伦，后来他们基本上被释放了。

So the the Jews are in the Jews are in captivity in Babylon and then basically release them.

然后居鲁士允许他们返回。

And then Cyrus lets them come back.

对。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

这就是为什么犹太人喜欢波斯人。

Which is why the Jews love the Persians.

那么他们回来时带上了波斯的思想吗？

Do they come back with Persian ideas then?

这就是他们所说的吗？

Is that what they said

对这个论点？

to the argument?

这就是这个观点。

That's the idea.

所以犹太教是波斯的吗？

So Judaism is Persian?

别夸大其词，以免削弱这个论点的效力。

Mean, let's not exaggerate to diminish the effectiveness of this argument.

我对这种策略很陌生。

I'm a stranger to that tactic.

不，别这么做。

No, don't do that.

不，因为我觉得有趣的是，如果你仔细看两部圣经文本，我认为是《但以理书》和《启示录》，它们里面包含了一些相当明显的琐罗亚斯德教的象征和思想。

No, because I think the interesting thing is if you look at two biblical texts, I think it's book of Daniel and the book of Revelation, they carry some fairly strong Zoroastrian tropes and ideas in there.

我的意思是，显然，比我聪明得多的学者们会深入研究和分析这些文本，但如果你留意犹太人从巴比伦流放归来之后的情况，关键点在于很多人并没有回来，而是留在了美索不达米亚——也就是波斯帝国的核心地带，吸收了大量这些思想并将其发扬光大。

I mean obviously these are things that scholars far brighter than me will be dissecting and interrogating looking at these texts, but if you look at once the Jews returned from the Babylonian captivity, and of course the main point is a lot of them didn't, a lot of them stayed in Mesopotamia which is the heartland of the Persian Empire and imbued a lot of these ideas and sort of produced it.

但你可以看到琐罗亚斯德教的思想渗透其中，甚至在文本中有些地方明确使用了明显源自波斯语的词汇。

But you can see Zoroastrian ideas coming through, and there's even parts of the text where they sort of say there are words that are being used that are clearly Persian.

但整个概念，比如琐罗亚斯德教末世论中有一个伟大的观念——一位龙王。

But the whole notion, for instance, of there's a great concept in Zoroastrian eschatology of a sort of a dragon king.

到末日之时。

To the end of days.

是的，在末日之时。

Yes, in the end of days.

尽管末日带有一定的循环性，但确实，末日之际会出现一位伟大的龙王，随后被推翻，等等，然后正如我们所希望的那样，迎来和平与正义。

Although the end of days has a certain circularity to it, but nonetheless, yes, sort of end of days, a sort of great dragon king that is then overthrown and whatever, and then you have peace and justice as one might hope.

而佐罗亚斯德教文本中所描述的龙王，与《启示录》中的兽有着显著的相似之处。

And the dragon king in the way it's described in Zoroastrian texts has strong similarities I should say with the beast in the book of Revelation.

这非常有趣。

So it's quite interesting.

不过，这些都并非定论，你知道，古代史也好，任何历史也好，都是如此。

Now again none of these are definitive, you know what would be an ancient history really, any history for that matter.

但即便如此，我认为这确实有力地证明了其中存在巨大争议。

But nonetheless I think it does make for quite a strong case that there's huge controversy.

我认为，波斯人非常擅长传播宗教和宗教思想，容我这么说。

Mean one of the things that I think the Persians have been extremely good at exporting, if I may say so, is religion and religious ideas.

而整个世界被划分为对立两极的理念——希罗多德曾说，波斯人被教导真理，而与之相对的则是谎言。

And the whole idea of of the world being divided I mean, they Herodotus was saying that the Persians get taught truth, and that, of course, the counterpoint to that is the lie.

谎言。

The lie.

世界被划分为善与恶的观念，

The sense of the world divided into good and evil and

没错。

That's right.

黑暗显然非常强大。

And darkness is obviously hugely strong.

所以我认为我们可以认为，波斯人发明了帝国、历史、犹太教、基督教和伊斯兰教。

So I think we could we could chalk up that the Persians have invented empire, history, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

这已经很不错了。

So that's not bad.

所以我认为我们大概应该

So I think we should probably

我不会去讨论犹太教，好吧。

I'm not take I'm not gonna go I'm not gonna go into Judaism, Okay.

我必须说，他们做出了重要贡献。

I must say they made significant contribution.

太晚了。

It's too late.

太晚了。

It's too late.

已经结束了。

It's done.

是的。

Yeah.

我明白你的意思。

I I hear you.

我明白你的意思。

I hear you.

所以

So

那我们就说到这里吧，休息一下。

so, let's let's leave it at that, and we'll take a break.

当我们回来时，你会有更多的内容，我想可能包括园艺。

And when we come back, you'll have some more, I think possibly including gardening.

那我们一会儿见。

So let's see you then.

你好。

Hello.

欢迎回到《余音未了》。

Welcome back to the rest is history.

和我在一起的是多米尼克，当然还有阿里·安萨里，他将为我们解释为什么波斯人发明了一切。

With me is Dominic, of course, and Ali Ansari, who is talking us through basically why the Persians have invented everything.

阿里正在为我们列出波斯人带给世界的十大发明。

Ali is is giving us his list of top 10 things that the Persians have given the world.

我们已经谈到了帝国和宗教。

We've already had empire, and we've had religion.

那么，阿里，你的十大发明列表下一项是什么？

So, Ali, what what's next on your list of top 10?

嗯，我认为另一件非常重要的事情是，波斯人发明了天堂，但我想这里需要稍作说明。

Well, the other thing I think is very important is that, you know, the Persians invented paradise, but I suppose it needs a bit of qualification here.

确切地说，是围墙花园的概念，一种经过规划和设计的围墙花园。

Really, the idea of a walled garden, a walled garden that's a planned and structured garden.

这实际上与居鲁士大帝的形象密切相关，考古学家发现他在伊朗南部的首都帕萨尔加德拥有一座相当壮观的围墙花园。

This is something that's very closely associated actually with the figure of Cyrus the Great who archaeologists have discovered had a rather spectacular walled garden at his capital in Pasadigai in Southern Iran.

当然，波斯人对自然世界的这种钟爱——我甚至要在这里提出一个主张，他们实际上是原始的环境保护主义者，所以你们能明白我的意思。

And of course this Persian affection shall we say for the natural world I'm going make a claim here actually that they're really the original environmentalists by the way, so you can see where I'm going.

你知道绿党其实是在伊朗开始的。

You know the Green Party really did start in Iran.

但这种对自然世界、花园的热爱，以及自然界的秩序与美感，我认为是与波斯人紧密相连的，历史上确实如此，甚至你会发现欧洲评论家和其他人也在谈论这一点。

But this sort of affection for the natural world, gardens, the sort of the order and beauty of the natural world I think is something that's very closely associated with the Persians throughout history actually, and one that you know you even find European commentators and others commenting on it.

我读过一段非常美好的叙述，我相信它出自色诺芬，不过汤姆，你可以再次纠正我，故事中一位斯巴达国王去拜访小居鲁士，在他位于萨迪斯的总督宫殿里，非常慷慨地称赞了他花园的壮丽，并说，你一定要表扬你的奴隶们做了这么多工作。

There's a lovely lovely narrative that I've read which actually I believe comes from of the, I think it comes from Xenophon actually, but Tom again you can correct me, where a Spartan king goes to visit Cyrus the Younger in his satraple, his governor's palace in Sardis, and comments very generously about the splendid nature of his garden and says, you you must congratulate your slaves for having done so much work.

当然，小居鲁士笑了，他反而说，不，不，要知道，这是我亲手做的。

And of course Cyrus the younger laughs and rather than he says, no, no, know, I've done this by my own hand.

斯巴达国王对此感到震惊，认为他竟会亲手弄脏自己，沾上泥土，但居鲁士说——我应该强调一下，这是年轻的居鲁士。

And the Spartan king is rather shocked at this that he should sully his own hands by getting in the dirt and all this, but Cyrus says that, this is Cyrus the Younger I should stress.

年轻的居鲁士说，我觉得非常重要的是，在亲手劳作之前，人不应该坐下来吃饭，你知道，这种想法就是让我们走出去，稍微活动一下，体验一下？

Cyrus the Younger says, know, I always feel it very important that until one has labored with one's own hands, one should not sit down for a meal, you know, and that sort of I mean, it's this sort of idea that let's get out there and let's have a bit of you know?

我觉得这是其中一点。

I think it's one of the yeah.

波斯帝国最令人惊叹的事情之一，就是国王们被描绘成伟大的园丁。

One of the most wonderful wonderful things about about the Persian empire is the way the kings are portrayed as great gardeners.

是的。

Yes.

那就是他们所扮演的角色。

That that that's the role they play.

薛西斯被鼓动入侵希腊的一个理由就是，那边有一些令人惊叹的树木和花卉，你不会想错过的，有点像是可以收集的东西。

That that one of the ways in which Xerxes is encouraged to invade Greece is they say, well, you know, there's some amazing trees and flowers there that you won't you know, it's kind of like Might be collect.

就像去一家园艺中心一样。

Going to a garden center or something.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我很想去波斯波利斯的花园里多收集一些树。

I mean, I'd like to go and collect some more trees for my garden back in Persepolis.

阿里，我可以插一句吗？我从未去过伊朗。

Ali, can I jump in as somebody who's never been to Iran?

所以我认为可能

So I think probably a

我们的许多听众也没去过

lot of our listeners won't have been to

伊朗。

Iran either.

所以我的印象，尽管这可能完全错误。

So my perception, which may be completely and utterly false.

当然。

Sure.

汤姆提到的伊朗是个高原，是不是一个尘土飞扬、非常炎热的地方？

Is that Iran, you Tom talked about as a plateau, is that it's quite a sort of dusty and and hot place.

那么，‘天堂’是指那种有围墙的花园吗？

So is the paradise the kind of walled garden?

这是为了躲避炎热而建的吗？它必须是人工建造的，还是我完全想错了？实际上，波斯是不是更绿意盎然、植被更茂盛？

Is that a refuge from the the heat and the is it does it have to be created, or am I completely wrong, and is Persia actually much greener and more verdant?

嗯，这是个好问题，因为在古代，人们普遍认为伊朗南部比现在要更加绿意盎然，但确实如此。

Well, I mean, into it it's it's a good question because, of course, in the ancient period, the argument is is that Southern Iran was much more verdant than we have today, but it's certainly true.

我认为你的核心观点非常正确：正因为地貌稀疏，伊朗人发展出了庞大的灌溉网络和供水系统。

I think your central point is quite true that it was because of the sparseness of the landscape some ways that the Iranians, developed vast irrigation networks and plans for, you know, water supply.

他们在这方面非常擅长，因此也就发展出了这些作为避暑之所的围墙花园。

I mean, they were quite skilled at that and therefore developed, I suppose, these walled gardens as a refuge.

但这并不意味着高原本身——别忘了，人们对中东有一种典型的东方主义刻板印象，认为那里全是沙漠和骆驼。

Now that's not to say that the plateau itself I mean, let's not forget because there is this sort of, how should we say rather, orientalist view of the Middle East as all being deserts and camels.

伊朗当然有沙漠，但伊朗也有热带雨林。

There are deserts in Iran obviously, but there are also jungles in Iran.

我的意思是，你去里海和北部地区，那里非常郁郁葱葱。

I mean, you go up to the Caspian and the northern areas, it's very verdant.

所以这里有各种不同的气候类型，但在南部，我认为这种对花园的钟爱，正如你所说，正是为了在原本相当荒凉的环境中，通过利用自然来创造一片避世之所。

So there's a whole range of different sort of climate types, but certainly in the South, and I think this sort of idea, the affection for a garden was precisely as you say it, that it's a way of harnessing nature to provide a refuge really in an otherwise rather sort of bleak landscape in some ways.

那些花园，我记得去过伊斯法罕的一个花园，当时天气挺热的。

And those garden I mean, I remember going to Esfahan and going to a garden there, and and it was kinda quite hot.

你一走进花园，就感觉凉爽了。

You went into the garden, and it was cool.

那里有喷泉。

There were fountains.

植被与建筑的融合美得令人叹为观止。

And the synthesis of the the the vegetation with the architecture was so breathtakingly beautiful.

我一次次在伊朗旅行时，都忍不住想，这些地方美得不亚于我见过的任何地方。

And again and again, I I kept going around Iran and thinking, you know, the the these places are as beautiful as any I've ever seen.

你能理解为什么人们会认为，这些围墙花园是上帝曾与人类漫步交谈的地方。

And you can see why the idea of of that these these walled gardens are the kind of places where god would have walked and talked to man.