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耶哈。
Yeehaw.
自从巴奇·卡萨迪和日舞小子首次驾机寻找劫掠列车的目标以来，还没有哪一对搭档能像汤姆·霍兰德和我——多米尼克·桑德布鲁克——这样如此强烈地引起观众的共鸣。
Not since Butch Cussardy and the Sundance Kid first rode the planes in search of trains to rob has a double act resonated with its audience quite like Tom Holland and me, Dominic Sandbrook.
当人们拍摄《历史的其余部分》这部电影时——他们肯定会拍——汤姆·霍兰德将由年迈的克林特·伊斯特伍德饰演。
When they come to make the film of The Rest is History, as they surely will, Tom Holland will be played by an aging Clint Eastwood.
而通过科学的奇迹，他们会用 CGI 技术让年轻时的罗伯特·雷德福来扮演我的角色。
And by a miracle of science, they'll bring back a youthful CGI Robert Redford to take on my role.
它确实写着尤尔·布伦纳。
It does say it does say Yule Brunner.
剧本里确实写着尤尔·布伦纳，但我并不想提这个名字。
It does say Yule Brunner in the script, but I don't wanna say that.
我觉得是吉恩·哈蒙德。
Gene Hammond, I think.
不是。
No.
嗯，嗯，这个
Well, Well, the
伙计啊，我通常想到的是演托尼·索普拉诺的那位演员。
fellow well, what I usually get is the fellow who played Tony Soprano.
我想不起他叫什么名字了。
I can't remember what his name is.
詹姆斯·加拉法尼。
James Gallaffini.
每次他出现在屏幕上，我妻子都会看着我说：你不觉得这有点奇怪吗？
Whenever he appears on the screen, my wife kinda looks at me and she says, don't you feel that's a bit weird?
你只是在盯着屏幕上的自己。
You're just staring at yourself on the screen.
不管怎样，根据剧本，这部电影将以我们两人从洞穴中眺望一群持枪的历史学家的画面结束。
Anyway, the movie will end according to the script with the pair of us looking out from a cave at a host of gun toting historians.
这剧本质量真高，不是吗？
This is quality script work, isn't it?
丹·斯诺，这位饱经风霜的领袖，会微笑着彼此点头，然后以辉煌的姿态爆发出来。
Dan Snow, their grizzled leader, will smile, nod at each other, and then burst forth in a blaze of glory.
这真是太棒了，对吧，汤姆？
This is great stuff, isn't it, Tom?
我
I
我喜欢这个。
like that.
是的。
Yeah.
我们就照这个来吧。
Let's just let's just run with this.
我想，显然如此。
I think, well, clearly.
我的意思是，我们并不撰写这些开场白。
I mean, we don't we don't write these introductions.
我们的制作人写的。
Our producer writes them.
而且写得非常好，你也能看出来。
And they're great, as you can tell.
欢迎来到《历史的其余部分》，今天要明确讨论的主题是西部狂野时代。
Well, welcome to The Rest is History, and today's topic for the avoidance of doubt is the Wild West.
这个时期包括枪手、养牛业、套索投掷、风尘女子、妓院、驿站马车、小马快递、印第安战争，以及欧洲移民横跨美洲大陆的扩张。
So the era of gunslinging, cattle ranching, lasso throwing, madams, bordellos, stagecoaches, the Pony Express, the Indian Wars, and expansion of European settlers across the American continent.
汤姆·荷兰，你可是个西部狂野的铁粉。
Tom Holland, a you're big Wild West fan.
这是你的点子，所以你肯定很了解。
This was your idea, so you must be.
我确实喜欢西部狂野这个神话。
I am a well, I'm a fan of the Wild West as a myth.
我不会假装自己对它有深入的专业知识，但我确实去过西部。
I'm not going to pretend to any great specialist knowledge about it, but I've been out west.
我我
I've I've
我去过怀俄明州。
been to Wyoming.
我去过蒙大拿州。
I've been to Montana.
我参观过小大角战役的遗址。
I've visited the site of Battle of the Little Bighorn.
为了你。
For you.
我算是个粉丝吧。
I'm I'm kind of I'm I'm a fan, I guess.
那可是挺远的路啊，汤姆。
That that's a long way to go, Tom.
你为什么会去那里呢？
Why would what what brought you out there?
对于一位古典历史学家来说，那并不是一个显而易见的目的地。
That's not an obvious destination for a classical historian.
我去那里是因为我对恐龙非常感兴趣。
Well, I went there because I'm very interested in dinosaurs.
我不太想在这里深入讨论，因为也许我们可以单独做一期关于恐龙的播客。
And I don't wanna measure too much in this because perhaps we could we could do a separate podcast on dinosaurs.
但19世纪70年代到80年代，是美国西部古生物学的黄金时代。
But the the the eighteen seventies, eighteen eighties was the golden age of paleontology in the Wild West.
那里简直到处都是。
It's absolutely full of Right.
化石遗址。
Bone fields.
所以我主要是去参观那些古生物学博物馆，但那里的历史与美国西部的历史紧密交织在一起。
So I basically went out to look at the the paleontological museums, but it's absolutely woven in with the history of the Wild West.
所以有个叫梅迪辛鲍的地方，那里确实是。
So there's this place called Medicine Bow, which was Yeah.
这是铁路开通后的一个停靠站，你知道的，横贯大陆铁路刚开通的时候。
A stop on the railroad just after it had, you know, Transcontinental Railroad had opened up.
在梅迪辛鲍以北有一个巨大的采石场，那里发现了第一具蜥脚类恐龙化石，这种恐龙尾巴很长、脖子很长。
And a huge quarry just north of Medicine Bow is where they found the first sauropod, so huge long tailed, long necked dinosaur.
但梅迪辛鲍也是欧文·威斯特小说《弗吉尼亚人》中枪战发生的地点，某种程度上来说，
But Medicine Bow is also the place where the shootout takes place in Owen Whistler's novel, The Virginian, which in a way is
这可以说是伟大的西部小说。
kind of the great western Yeah.
小说。
Novel.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
这是奠定西部小说基础的作品，有枪战、酒馆，所有那些典型的元素。
It's it's the foundational western novel with, you know, the shootout, the saloon, all that kind of stuff.
所以，它在某种程度上交织在一起。
So, so it kind of interwove.
而且，你知道，在蒙大拿和怀俄明州，我当然要去参观小大角战役的遗址，因为那也是一个精彩的故事。
And and, you know, being in in in Montana and being in Wyoming, of course, I was gonna go visit the site of the Battle of Little Bighorn because that's an amazing story as well.
我认为，从某种意义上说，像卡斯特、坐牛和疯马这样的角色，对我来说具有荷马英雄般的共鸣。
And I think that, in a way, characters like Custer and Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse, for me, they have the resonance of Homeric heroes.
我的意思是，这些人物超凡脱俗，某种程度上几乎超越了历史的维度。
I mean, they these are these are figures who are larger than life and and who, in a sense, kind of exist beyond the dimension of history almost.
是的。
Yes.
荷马英雄。
Homeric heroes.
但是，汤姆，你不觉得我们可能是最后一代这样的人了吗？
But but, Tom, don't you think that we're probably the last generation of whom that's true?
我的意思是，我是在七十年代的英国长大的，那时候电视上播着西部片，我记得我有一本很棒的图画书，是意大利的图画书，翻译成英文叫《欧内斯特与狂野西部》，讲的是一个叫欧内斯特的男孩，他遇到了卡利马蒂·简，乘坐蒸汽船，遇见了坐牛和卡斯特，故事最后以小大角战役收尾。
I mean, I grew up in seventies Britain, and the cowboy films on TV, and I remember I had a brilliant picture book, an Italian picture book translated into English called Ernest and the Wild West, about a fellow called Ernest, and he meets Calamity Jane, and he goes on steamships, and he meets Sitting Bull and Custer, and it ends at the battle of Little Bighorn.
但你真的觉得今天流行文化中还有像以前那样强烈的这种形象吗？
But but you don't really see that in sort of pop culture today to the same extent, do you?
我想知道，如果你是20岁，或者10岁的话。
I wonder if you're 20 or if you're 10.
你知道，关于牛仔和印第安人的故事，对现在的年轻人来说，还能像对我们和我们父母那代人那样产生同样的共鸣吗？
You know, stories about, as it were, cowboys and Indians have the same resonance as they did for us and for our parents.
我认为这几乎肯定是真的。
I think that's almost certainly true.
我认为，西部拓荒之所以成为历史研究中如此引人入胜的课题，是因为这个神话本身作为历史事实具有深远的影响。
And I think that that one of the reasons why the Wild West is so fascinating as a topic of historical inquiry is that the myth itself is profoundly influential as a fact of history.
某种程度上，它成了当前美国社会诸多争论和对立议题的焦点。
And in a way, it's it's a kind of lightning rod for so much that is being debated and contested in America at the moment.
因为，当然，正是这种作为叙事舞台的吸引力和震撼力，也使它变得令人恐惧——因为这是一个充满暴力、侵略和直接对抗的地方，无论是原住民与移民之间，还是牛仔盗贼与义警之间，抑或其他任何对立群体。
Because, of course, what makes it gripping and fascinating as a a a theater for narrative is also what makes it kind of terrifying because this is a place of violence and aggression and kind of unmediated confrontation between whether it's Native Americans and settlers or cattle rustlers and vigilantes or whatever.
这些都是极具争议的领域。
These are all very, very contested areas.
我认为，关于西部拓荒，有一件事甚至比种族和原住民权利的问题更突出，那就是它极其男性化。
And I think one of one of the things about the Wild West that perhaps even more than the the the the question of of of race and of indigenous rights is the fact that it is very, very masculine.
是的。
Yeah.
确实如此。
It is.
而且，它在塑造美国男性气质方面无疑起到了巨大的作用，对吧？
And, of course, it's it's it's huge in playing creating American masculinity, isn't it, basically?
牛仔和那种阳刚的边疆开拓者的形象。
The image of the cowboy and the sort of macho frontiersman.
在经典作品中，比如《弗吉尼亚人》，弗吉尼亚人甚至被一位来自东海岸的学校妈妈所驯服。
In the classic I mean, even in the even in the Virginian, the Virginian is kind of tamed by an East Coast school mom.
这种对女性化倾向的矛盾态度贯穿了所有这类叙事，甚至也贯穿于真实历史之中，想想看。
And that that there's a very kind you know, the ambivalence towards the feminizing instinct runs throughout all these kind of narratives and indeed through through through the authentic history as well, think.
所以我认为，这确实是一个极具争议的、我想说，是充满问题的议题。
So I think that that it's it's it's a it's a hugely contested and, I guess, the word is problematic.
不。
No.
别这么说。
Don't go there.
我做这个播客并不是为了谈论
I didn't I didn't do this podcast to talk about
事情是否具有问题性。
things being problematic.
我知道这会让你开始
I knew that that would prompt you to get your your
你触发我了，汤姆。
You've triggered me, Tom.
你触发了我，我触发了你。
You've triggered I've triggered you.
让我们稍微回退一下，在进入这个神话之前，先谈谈吧。当然，你会很高兴地知道，这个故事中有一个宗教元素。
Let's let's rewind a bit and and talk before we get into the myth, let's talk a little bit about the So, you'll be delighted to know that, of course, that there's a religious element to this story.
因此，如果不从罗里·马丁的这个问题开始，就显得不够妥当。
So it feels remiss not to start with this quote question from Rory Martin.
他说，汤姆，你热爱基督教对西方的影响。
He says, Tom, you love Christianity's impact on the West.
你说得对，罗里。
You're not wrong, Rory.
你如何解释‘天定命运’和‘山巅之城’神学对美国西部扩张的影响？
How do you explain the influence of manifest destiny and the city on a hill theology on the Western expansion of The United States?
所以，你愿意就此谈一点吗？
So do you wanna say a little bit about that?
嗯，我认为，从某种意义上说，当英国殖民者踏上北美海岸的那一刻，他们就已经面对着一片西方边疆，不是吗？
Well, I guess that, in a sense, the moment that English settlers land on the shores of North America, they're dealing with a Western frontier, aren't they?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，当你踏上普利茅斯岩的那一刻，你身后以西的一切都成了边疆。
I mean, you know, the moment you step onto Plymouth Rock, everything West is a is a is a frontier from you.
是的
Yeah.
当然，这些早期定居者深受《出埃及记》理念的激励，认为他们正生活在应许之地。
And, of course, those early settlers are very motivated by the idea that they're living out the book of Exodus, that they've been given a promised land.
是的
Yeah.
而这正是推动人们向西迁移的一部分原因。
And that that, of course, is a part of what drives people westwards.
但令人惊讶的是，我认为这并不是主要因素。
But shockingly, I don't think it's the main thing.
这非常不寻常。
I This is very unusual.
是的
Yeah.
所以我认为，西部的一个迷人之处在于，它显然主要是由贪婪驱动的。
So I think one of the one of the fascinations of the West is that it's it's clearly essentially driven by by greed, I think.
我的意思是，这是对土地的需求。
I mean, it's it's it's a need for land.
这是对毛皮的需求。
It's a it's a need for for for fur.
我的意思是，一开始正是捕猎的愿望驱使他们沿着这些河流前进，猎杀所有的海狸。
I mean, you know, to begin with, it's it's the desire for trapping that leads them, you know, down these rivers, killing all the beavers.
我认为，宗教当然在西部叙事中扮演了极其重要的角色。
I I do think that, of course, religion plays a huge part in the narrative of the West.
传教士的形象是一个绝对的标准。
The figure of the preacher is an absolute kind of standard.
我认为，当你观察原住民对它的反应时，基督教的影响是非常巨大的。
And I think also that that when you look at Native American responses to it, the influence of Christianity is fairly huge.
所以在狂野西部时期的末尾，出现了鬼舞这种悲剧性事件。
So you're right at the end of of the Wild West period, the kind of the tragic story of the ghost dance.
鬼舞。
Ghost dance.
这是一个精彩的故事。
That's an amazing story.
当美洲原住民被一种扭曲的基督教末世论所浸染时。
Where where Native Americans are are are suffused with a kind of distorted sense of the Christian apocalyptic.
你知道，他们有一种想法，即他们生活在一个彻底崩塌的世界废墟之中。
You know, they have this idea, you know, they're living among the absolute ruins of their world.
是的。
And Yeah.
鬼舞是一种救世主般的讯息，认为只要他们跳舞，白人就会消失，被五英尺深的泥土掩埋，野牛也会回归。
The ghost dance is this kind of messianic message that if they dance, then the white men will will vanish, will be kind of buried beneath five foot of soil, and the buffalo will come back.
野牛已被灭绝，随着野牛的毁灭，整个美洲原住民的生活方式也被摧毁了。
The buffalo have been wiped out, with the the destruction of the buffalo, the whole Native American way of life has been destroyed.
所有死去的美洲原住民都将复活。
And that all the Native Americans who are dead will come back to life.
这是一种极其痛苦、令人心酸的基督教故事的重述。
And it's kind of terribly, you know, painfully tragic reworking of of of the Christian story.
但当然，它带有定居者带来的基督教元素这一事实表明，将对立双方截然分开的观点过于简单化，因为
But of of course, the fact that, you know, it does have this Christian element that has been brought by the settlers show that the kind of stark division between rival sides is is is simplistic because
是的。
Yeah.
西部是一个充满激烈争夺的地区。
The West is a hugely contested area.
我认为，尽管我们谈论基督教对西部的影响，但在经典时期，真正值得注意的是基督教道德的缺失。
And I think that that all despite talking about the influence of Christianity on the West, actually, in the classic period, what's telling about it is the lack of Christian morals.
我的意思是，这是一个枪战真实存在的时代，是西部历史中的一个事实。
I mean, this is this is an era where you you you know, the shootout is an authentic fact of World West history.
这确实发生过。
That really happens.
从一开始，这个世界就充满了暴力，不是吗？
It a world sort of steeped in violence, isn't it, from the very beginning?
我的意思是，有一些统计数据。
I mean, there's a couple of sort of stats.
我知道我们通常并不太关注数据和事实。
I know we don't really normally do stats and fact.
我们是一个没有事实的历史播客。
We've got a fact free history podcast.
但人们经常争论，当第一批定居者抵达北美时，印第安人究竟有多少。
But, you know, people argue about how many Indians there were at the beginning when the first sort of settlers arrived in North America.
但据我估计，这些数字差异巨大。
But there were probab I mean, the the estimates vary massively.
假设当时人口在五百万到一千万之间吧。
But let's say they were between five and ten million.
但到了1890年左右，只剩下二十五万人了。
But by 1890 or so, there were 250,000.
所以是的。
So Yeah.
在短短一段时间内出现了惊人的下降。
A colossal decline in just a short time.
但还有一个更令人震惊的数字，我今天早上为了准备这个播客才了解到：十八世纪末，北美有六千万头野牛。
But an even more shocking figure actually, which I only found this morning when I was swatting up for this podcast, is that in the late eighteenth century, there were 60,000,000 bison in North America.
而到了1889年，只剩下541头。
And in 1889, there were 541.
所以正如你所说，野牛是原住民赖以生存的动物。
So as you say, the bison, which, you know, the the native Americans depended on the bison.
他们之间形成了一种共生关系。
They had this kind of symbiotic relationship.
当野牛被消灭后，他们的世界便彻底崩塌了。
And when the bison were destroyed, their world just completely fell apart.
这个故事——实际上并非我们童年时所听到的版本——完全是彻底的灭绝。
And the story of this, which which basically is not the story that we got as children, is just the the utter extermination.
灭绝，这才是准确的词。
And extermination is the word.
我的意思是，美国将军们常常毫不避讳地谈论要灭绝印第安人，而他们的士兵也常常以令人发指的残暴方式行事。
I mean, American generals talk about exterminating the Indians quite freely, and their men, you know, behave often with appalling savagery.
这确实是那种仍然被浪漫神话稍稍掩盖的故事，对吧？
That that's really the sort of story that you that is still slightly obscured by the romantic myths, isn't it?
说来奇怪，对我而言其实并不是这样。
Well, oddly not for me, actually.
因为实际上，野牛（不管你怎么称呼它们）的灭绝，对我来说，是比任何其他事情都更让我难以释怀的。
Because actually, the destruction of the buffalo bison, whatever you wanna call them, is is for me it's it's the probably the thing that that more than anything else haunts me.
当我去怀俄明州时，他们在黄石国家公园里有这些动物。
When I when I went to to to to Wyoming, they they have they have them in in Yellowstone National Park.
而那正是我最想看到的东西。
And that, more than anything else, was what I wanted to see.
我想看到它们在移动。
I wanted to see them moving.
这种破坏的规模，这种毁灭的程度，简直令人发指。
And the scale of the ruin, the scale of of the destruction is just monstrous.
你听到的那些记载，本质上，是铁路打开了这一切，对吧？
And the accounts that you get I mean, essentially, it's the railroad that opens it up, isn't it?
因为突然之间，猎人的数量根本不足以出去猎杀这些数以百万计的兽群，是的。
Because suddenly, the hunt hunters insufficient volume to get out and wipe these, you know, herds of millions Yeah.
供不应求。
As available.
你还会听到一些可怕的故事，人们坐在马车里，拿着步枪，随意射杀他们看到的每一头野牛。
And you have these terrible stories of people riding along in the in the carriages with their their rifles just kind of shooting all the buffalo that they see.
还有更可怕的记载，人们外出时不得不往步枪上泼水，因为枪管已经烫得不行。
And then terrible accounts of the of of people moving out and having to pour water on the rifles to to to stop because they've got so hot.
当水用光了，他们就撒尿在枪上降温。
And then when they run out of water, urinating on them.
天哪。
Oh, gosh.
这种屠杀的狂热。
And the mania for slaughter.
是的。
The Yeah.
你知道吗，大量兽皮被运回东部用于制作地毯、传送带之类的，骨头被碾碎成肥料，然后就什么都没了。
You know, the volume of hides that get sent back to the East for carpets and conveyor belts and whatever and the the bone being crushed up into fertilizer, and then there's nothing.
还有一个令人痛心的故事，我想是发生在二十世纪二十年代，蒙大拿某个地方的一个定居者农场。
And there's this this terrible story of, I think, in the nineteen twenties that there's a settler farm somewhere in Montana or something.
有一天，一头野牛走进了镇上，全镇的人都惊呆了：这是什么？
And one day, a buffalo walks into town, and it's like everyone in the town goes, what is this?
他们当然知道这是什么，但对它们来说，这简直像传说一样。
It's you know, they know what it is, but it's it's a legend to them.
就像幽灵突然出现了。
It's like a ghost has appeared.
于是整个镇子的人都跑出来，围在那头野牛周围，只是呆呆地望着它。
So every the whole town comes and and and stands around this buffalo, and they just stare at it.
他们盯着它看了大约二十分钟，却不知道该怎么办。
And they stare at it for about twenty minutes, and they don't know what to do with it.
最后，有个人掏出枪，把它打死了。
So a guy gets a gun and shoots it.
哦，天啊。
Oh, god.
我就知道会发生这种事。
I knew that was gonna happen.
这太令人沮丧了。
That's so depressing.
这简直难以置信。
That's unbelievable.
当然，海狸也遭遇了同样的命运。
Of course, the same thing happens to, to the beavers.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为，美国向西扩张所带来的环境破坏规模是毁灭性的。
The the the the scale of environmental destruction that the westward expansion of The United States brings, I think, is is devastating.
我的意思是，在某种程度上
I mean, to some extent
它聚焦于欧洲定居者所到之处发生的事情。
It focuses what happens wherever European settlers move.
是的。
Yeah.
它确实非常聚焦于这一点。
It it it really focuses it.
这在某种程度上是一个关于资本主义的故事，对吧，汤姆？
It's it's a story about capitalism, isn't it, to some extent?
当然，汤姆，你期待一个像我这样的马克思主义历史学家这么说。
You expect this from a Marxist historian like me, of course, Tom.
但这是一个关于资本主义代价的故事。
But it's a story about the cost of capitalism.
斯蒂芬·库克有一个问题，接着你刚才提到的铁路话题。
Stephen Cook has a question picking up on something you said about railroads.
他说，铁路是否驯服了西部荒野？
He says, did the railroad tame the Wild West?
显然，我认为铁路发挥了巨大的作用。
And clearly, I I think the railroad played a huge part.
所以，某种程度上，西部狂野时代的鼎盛时期——我想说的是旧西部时期——大致从美国独立持续到十九世纪末。
So the sort of, in some ways, heyday of the the Wild West I mean, the Old West period, I suppose, it runs from well, I mean, it runs from American independence through to the end of the nineteenth century.
但它的鼎盛时期是内战前后那几年，也就是十九世纪六十年代、七十年代和八十年代。
But the kind of heyday of it is the years around the civil war and just after the civil war, sort of eighteen sixties, eighteen seventies, eighteen eighties.
而正如你所说，这正是铁路扩张的时代。
And that is, of course, as you said, the age of railroad expansion.
于是你看到了联合太平洋铁路这样的线路，这些庞大的铁路系统将人们横贯美国运送。
So you have these kind of Union Pacific lines and so on, these colossal lines that are carrying people across The US.
但这不仅仅是铁路的作用，因为即使没有铁路，这种迁移也会发生——毕竟之前已经有马车队伍和各种小道了。
But it's not just I mean, that would have happened with or without the railroads because it happened with the the wagon trains and all these trails and and all that sort of thing.
而且正如你所说，我认为利润和对利润的渴望是其中的重要部分。
And and as you say, I think profit, the desire for profit is a big part of this.
但一直萦绕在我心头的问题是，我们在这个播客中经常讨论的反事实和必然性。
But the question that that sort of nags at me is where we've talked about so often in this podcast about counterfactuals and inevitability.
在这一时期的开端，有一个非常有趣的假设。
And there's a great what if at the beginning of this period.
所以1812年，1812年战争结束后，那是1814年。
So in 1812, after the eighteen twelve war, when the British and the it was 1814.
英国人和美国人打完仗后，正试图达成一项和平条约。
So the the the British and the Americans have had their war, and they're trying to to get a peace treaty.
英国人希望在如今的美国上中西部地区建立一个印第安缓冲国。
And the British wanted an Indian buffer state in what's now the Upper Midwest.
美国人则拒绝了，因为他们早已盯上了这片土地，并计划将其纳入扩张范围。
And the Americans said no because they already had their eyes on it, and they'd sort of earmarked it for expansion.
我想，如果当时真的建立了一个印第安国家，并得到了英国的扶持，我们今天会不会以同样的方式讲述这个故事呢？
And I wonder if some kind of Indian state and the kind of British patronage had been created, whether we'd be telling this story in the same way.
但当然，美国人绝不会容许这样的国家存在，原因显而易见。
But, of course, no Americans wouldn't countenance such a state for obvious reasons.
对。
Right.
但我也认为，这根本不可能，因为即使是一个愿意签署协议的美国政府，也不具备这样的权限去同意这件事。
But also, I I I think that I I I don't think that was ever possible because I don't think it was within the remit even of an American government that was willing to sign that to to agree to it.
因为，如果你看看1840年代发生的事情，就会发现西进运动完全脱离了联邦政府的控制。
Because, essentially, if you look at what happens in the eighteen forties, basically, the the process of westward expansion runs away from the federal government.
所以你有对墨西哥的战争，你知道，那场战争极其残酷。
So you've got the the war against, you know, you've the war the war against Mexico, which is incredibly brutal.
这正是科马克·麦卡锡的伟大小说《血色子午线》的背景，是的。
That's the backdrop for Cormac McCarthy's great novel Blood Meridian, which is Yeah.
你知道，那是一种令人恐惧的描绘。
You know, a terrifying portrayal
是的。
of Yeah.
我们在杰森·巴克布鲁克斯的故事里讨论过这个，对吧？
We talked about that in the story of Jason Buckbrokes, didn't we?
而这一切本质上是由一群民兵团伙组织起来的，美国后来则搭上了这趟车。
And and that that is, you know, that essentially is is organized by gangs of vigilantes, and it's it's one that The United States then piggybacks onto.
但还有淘金热。
But, also, you've the gold rush.
1848年，同样是这一年。
And 1848, same year.
确实没有。
There's not, Yeah.
所以，任何联邦政府都无法阻止人们去参加淘金热。
So there's nothing that that any federal government could do to stop people going on that gold rush.
没错。
No.
政府根本无力控制那种情况。
The government's simply not powerful enough to control Yeah.
正如你所说。
As you say.
我的意思是，它没有足够的制度资源。
I mean, it doesn't have the institutional resources.
实际上，它也没有足够的人力。
It doesn't have the the manpower, actually.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
然后，当然，你还经历了内战，这再次意味着西部广大地区实际上脱离了联邦政府的控制。
And and then, of course, you got the the the civil war, which again means that vast reaches of the West essentially are beyond federal control.
没错。
Yeah.
于是就有了得克萨斯游骑兵，他们在美墨战争中扮演了重要角色，尤其在对抗科曼奇人的战斗中表现突出。
So you got the the the the Texas Rangers who, you know, played a prominent role in the in in the war against Mexico and then particularly against Comanches.
他们后来转而支持南方邦联，正是从那时起，西部真正变得狂野起来，因为那里成了彻底的无政府状态。
They go back and fight on the side of the Confederacy, and that's where the West really becomes wild because it's an absolute free for all.
内战和西部拓荒时期在某种程度上交织在一起，这一点你从那些对内战或西部拓荒了解不多、但看过《与狼共舞》的人身上就能感受到，因为凯文·科斯特纳饰演的角色就是一位内战退伍军人。
There was a the civil war and the Wild West kind of bleed into each other, and that's one thing that you get from so people who don't know much about the civil war but have or the Wild West but have seen dances with wolves will get a sense of this because Kevin Costner is his character is a civil war veteran.
就像许多士兵、侦察兵以及那些经典人物，比如野比·希科克和水牛比尔·科迪，他们中的许多人
And as so many of the the soldiers and indeed the scouts and the sort of these classic figures, you know, sort of the wild Bill Hickox and the Buffalo Bill Cody's, I mean, a lot of them have been
都参与了卡斯特将军的行动吗？
involved in General Custer?
是的。
Yeah.
卡斯特曾是内战时期的骑兵军官，对吧？但战后他的职业生涯毫无起色。
Custer is a class class Custer had been a cavalry officer, hadn't it, in the civil war, And his career had gone nowhere afterwards.
他与总统格兰特——尤利西斯·格兰特，那位前内战将军、后来的总统——闹翻了。
He'd fallen out with president Grant, Ulysses s Grant, former civil war general who'd become president.
当卡斯特进行这次注定失败的行动时，他实际上是在试图重振自己的政治生涯。
And he was basically trying to revive his political career, Custer, when he went goes off on this doomed attempt.
我觉得卡斯特其实非常喜欢，他就是热爱这一切，不是吗？
Well, I I I think I mean, I think Custer actually, I mean, mean, he he just loves it, doesn't he?
他热爱西部。
He loves the West.
他觉得这很有趣。
He he thinks it's fun.
他非常享受这一切的刺激。
He he he relishes the excitement of it all.
我真不敢相信你居然在为卡斯特辩护，汤姆。
I can't believe you're speaking up for Custer, Tom.
我完全没想到会这样。
I never saw this coming.
卡斯特是个糟糕的
Well Custer's a terrible
人，真的。
man, really.
他确实是个糟糕的人，但他也很有魅力，因为他享受自己所做的一切。
He is a terrible man, but he's also a a a charismatic man because he enjoys everything that he does.
而且是的。
And Yeah.
所以当格兰特告诉他不能跟随第七骑兵团时，他几乎跪在特里将军面前，苦苦哀求。
So when he when he gets told by Grant that he can't go with his, you know, with the seventh cavalry, He he basically falls down on his knees before general Terry kinda begs him.
这种浮夸和戏剧性的表现方式，正是人们真正被卡斯特吸引的原因。
And and that's and there's a it's it's the kind of the flamboyance and the histrionics of Custer that I think people actually really respond to.
他在密尔人群中非常受欢迎，我的意思是，他有很多敌人，但也备受爱戴。
He's a he's a much loved figure among the mill I mean, he has a lot of enemies, but he's also very loved.
我认为，卡斯特之所以能取得成功——直到小大角河战役前他一直都很成功——是因为他完美地体现了每个骑兵都向往成为的样子。
And I think that part of of what makes Custer a success, and he is a success right the way up to to to Little Bighorn, is that he's the kind of the model of what every cavalryman would like to be.
他是个随性冲动的人，看到野牛就想去射击，看到印第安人部落就立刻冲锋。
He's he's a creature of whim and impulse who whose reaction to a buffalo is to go off and shoot it, to to seeing a warband of of Indians is to charge it.
事实上，来自坐牛的一段精彩描述——他虽未参加小大角河战役，但有人问他：‘那些参加过小大角河战役的人是怎么说的？’
And, essentially, there's this fantastic from from Sitting Bull who was not at Little Bighorn, but was asked to say, you know, what what what what do people who fought at Little Bighorn say?
卡斯特是怎么死的？
How did Custer die?
他回答说：‘卡斯特临死前的最后一件事，是先杀死一个人，然后大笑起来，他就这样死了。'
And he says, well, the very last thing that Custer did as he died was first to kill someone and then to burst out laughing, and that's how he died.
而这基本上就是，你知道的，但那里确实有一种魅力。
And that's basically you know, but but there is a kind of charisma there.
但在我们休息之前，我想先说一点，我觉得你完全抓住了重点，那就是名人效应。
But before we go to a break time, which I want to do in a bit, I'll just say one thing, which I think you've absolutely picked up on, which is celebrity.
卡斯特是个名人。
Custer was a celebrity.
卡斯特在远征时会带上记者，并在报纸上精心塑造自己的形象。
Custer took journalists with him on his on his expeditions, and he manicured his image in the papers.
实际上，整个西部拓荒题材之所以如此精彩、被如此美化和激烈争论，是因为从内战时期开始，也就是西部狂热的鼎盛时期，它就与摄影、廉价小说、新闻报道以及西部秀等各种形式紧密交织在一起。
And, actually, the this whole subject of the Wild West, one reason that it's such a great subject and it's been so glamorized and it's been so debated is that it is wrapped up from the very you know, from the outset of the sort of of the sort of civil war ish period, the sort of heyday of the Wild West with photography, with dime novels, with journalism, and with Wild West shows and all those kinds of things.
所以，坐牛确实出现在各种表演和重演活动中。
So Sitting Bull, I mean, Sitting Bull appears in shows and kind of reenactments.
实际上，我们提到的几乎所有这些人，都以某种方式参与了媒体。
And actually, almost all of these people that we've talked about are in some are engaged in the media.
他们要么为公众表演，要么写作——卡斯特就在报纸上发表文章，这正是让这一切如此特别的原因
So they're they're either putting on shows for the public or they're they're they're writing in Custer writes stories in the papers, and that's what makes it such a
很棒的主题。
great subject.
但有一个例外恰恰证明了这个规律：野西部唯一从未被拍过照的名人是疯马，是的。
And and the exception that proves the rule, the one celebrity from the Wild West who who is never photographed is Crazy Horse Yeah.
恰恰因为这一点，他在所有人中显得最具魅力。
Who in a way is the most kind of charismatic figure of the lot precisely because of that.
尽管他死于一场肮脏的保留地斗殴，但他的遗体后来被神秘地转移了，没人知道他葬在哪里。
And although he dies in a kind of squalid reservation brawl, his body then gets spiritual spirited away, and nobody knows where it's buried.
但这一点显然如此。
But that obviously yeah.
他就是那个传说，不是吗？
He's the That's the legend, isn't it?
那就是
That's the
就像是野西部的亚瑟王。
kind of the king Arthur of of of the Wild West.
而且整个事情是，你知道的，他还会再回来。
And and the whole thing of of that, you know, he he will come again.
有一个非常引人入胜的例子，展现了美国西进帝国扩张与像疯马这样的人不愿被纪念之间的冲突，这就是黑山地区正在进行的这场壮观的雕像之争。
There's this kind of fascinating example of how of of the contest between the the the westward imperial expansion of The United States and the reluctance of people like Crazy Horse to be memorialized is this incredible kind of statue wars that's going on in the Black Hills.
你知道吗？
You know?
你有拉什莫尔山，当然，上面雕刻着四位总统的雕像。
So you got Mount Rushmore, obviously, with the with the the sculptures of the four presidents.
但同时，还有一位波兰雕塑家，他一生都在努力雕刻一座巨大的疯马雕像。
But then you've got this this Polish sculptor who's, over the course of his life, trying to to sculpt a huge statue of Crazy Horse.
是的。
Yeah.
我见过这个。
I've seen this.
它是世界上第二大的雕像。
Just the second largest statue in the world.
但这个雕像争议极大，因为许多拉科塔人说，疯狂马的本意就是不被拍照。
But but but is is hugely contested because a lot of, you know, the Glargla Lakota people say, well, you know, the whole point about a crazy horse, he wasn't photographed.
我们不知道他埋在哪里。
We don't know where he's buried.
别这么做。
Don't do this.
真是个故事啊。
So story.
太棒了。
Great stuff.
好的。
Alright.
汤姆，听我说。
Tom, listen.
该下马喝牛奶了。
It's time to get off your horse and drink your milk.
镇上有一家酒吧，我想喝三指宽的波本威士忌。
There's a saloon bar in town, and I fancy me three fingers of bourbon.
谁写的这些东西？
Who writes this stuff?
总之，我们该休息一下了。
Anyway, we're up for a break.
我们一两分钟后就回来。
We'll see you in, like, a minute or two.
欢迎回到《历史其余部分》，我是多米尼克·桑德布鲁克和汤姆·荷兰。
Welcome back to The Rest is History with me, Dominic Sandbrook and Tom Holland.
提醒一下，4月21日星期三，我们将在线直播这场播客。
And a reminder that on Wednesday, April 21, we will be doing this podcast live on the Internet.
欢迎大家前来参加。
Everybody is welcome.
免费参与，我们将讨论失败和成功的暗杀事件。
It's free to join, and we will be talking about assassinations failed and successful.
我们会在前几天在推特上发布链接。
And we'll put out a link on Twitter a few days beforehand.
这个星期四，我们谈论的内容，好像一个荷兰人还不够似的。
And this Thursday, we are talking as if one Holland wasn't bad enough.
我们请来了一位真正的荷兰人。
We've got a veritable United Provinces.
非常好，多米尼克。
We've got a Netherlands Very good, Dominic.
非常好。
Very good.
汤姆的弟弟詹姆斯，他对二战的了解几乎无人能及，将于周四做客，谈论1940年——或许是近代历史上最重要、被神话最多的年份。
Tom's Tom's brother James, who knows more about the second world war than just about anybody, is coming on on Thursday, and he will be talking about 1940, perhaps the most consequential, the most mythologized year in recent history.
这真是令人期待。
So that's something to look forward to.
好了，汤姆，我们来深入探讨这个神话吧。
Now, Tom, let's let's get into the myth.
所以我们这里有几个问题。
So we've got a couple of questions here.
我们有一个来自阿南德的问题。
We've got a question from Anand.
西方到底是什么样子的？
What was the West really like?
我们能将事实与虚构区分开来吗？
Can we separate fact from fiction?
这和朱利安·霍夫曼的问题不谋而合，他问的是西部片的历史。
And that kind of tallies with Julian Hoffman's question, which is about the history of westerns.
它比西部的真实历史更有影响力吗？
Is it more influential than the actual history of the West?
当然，在很多方面，确实如此。
Of course, in many ways, it it is.
那么，汤姆，事实与虚构。
So, Tom, fact and fiction.
你非常推崇西部神话这种虚构形象，对吧？
You're a great devotee of the fiction, aren't you, of the kind of myth of the West?
是的。
Yes.
我想，某种程度上，确实如此。
I I think I think I mean, I think in a way, yeah.
我 definitely 认为，就像亚瑟王的传说可能比任何真实历史基础（如果它确实存在过的话）更重要。
I definitely just as the the myth of King Arthur is probably more important than whatever the you know, if it even existed, the the the the the bedrock of fact.
我认为，西部神话对二十世纪美国以及外界对美国的理解产生了巨大影响，不是吗？
I I think that the myth of the Western has been hugely influential, hasn't it, on on twentieth century America and on the way that America is understood?
我认为这在美国的自我形象中绝对是核心的。
I think it's absolutely central in America's self image.
我的意思是，所有学习美国历史的大学生都会接触到弗雷德里克·杰克逊·特纳的边疆理论。
I mean, this there was an argument so something that all people who do sort of American history university learn is about Frederick Jackson Turner's frontier thesis.
是的。
So he Yes.
他向
He he presented this to
关于那个？
on that?
实际上，著名记者亚历克斯·梅西也问过这个问题。
Actually and so Alex Massey, distinguished journalist, actually asked about that.
他说，你知道，现在学术界对这个问题的看法是什么？
He he said, you know, what's the current state of academic thinking on that?
多米尼克，现在学术界对这个问题的看法是什么？
Dominic, what is the current state of academic thinking on that?
我认为是在1893年，美国历史学家弗雷德里克·杰克逊·特纳提交了这篇论文，他基本上说，美国人口普查已宣布边疆已关闭，美国已完全被开发完毕。
So in 1893, I think it is, Frederick Jackson Turner, who's an American historian, presents this this paper or he writes this paper, and he basically says, The US census has declared that the frontier is closed, that America has been completely opened up.
已经没有所谓的狂野西部了。
There is no Wild West anymore.
他写了这篇论文，核心观点是边疆对美国至关重要。
And he writes this this paper basically saying the frontier is key to America.
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这正是美国区别于欧洲的地方。
It's what make America different from Europe.
这一点正是美国人努力寻求民族认同感和与欧洲差异感的核心。
This is the point to which Americans are sort of straining for a sense of national identity and a sense of distinctiveness from Europe.
他说，是边疆赋予了你们民主。
And he says it's the frontier, and it gives you democracy.
它赋予了你们自由。
It gives you freedom.
它非常暴力。
It's very violent.
它培养了自力更生，所有这些都使美国区别于欧洲。
It gives you self reliance, and all these things make America different from Europe.
边疆对我们的身份至关重要。
And the frontier is key to our identity.
自那以后，历史学家们一直在争论这一观点的真实性，当然，有许多历史学家对此持不同意见，但我个人认为，美国显然是一个深受边疆经历塑造的社会。
And ever since historians have have argued how much how true this is, and, of course, there's lots of historians who have disagreed with it, I actually think it it America clearly is a society shaped by their experience of the frontier.
我的意思是，美国人对枪支的态度，只有在考虑到北美历史上如此多的暴力时才能真正解释得通。
I mean, the American relationship with guns is only really explicable if you think about the violence of so much North American history.
当然，美国历史不仅仅是边疆，但我认为这样说是有道理的。
And, of course, you know, there's more to American history than just the frontier, but I think I think it does make sense.
你觉得呢，汤姆？
What do you think, Tom?
还有，自我 Sufficiency 的神话，不是吗？
And also well, also the myth of self sufficiency, isn't it?
是的。
Yeah.
这种观念认为，你可以
The idea is that you
独自生活
can live
在一座木屋里。
in a log cabin.
所以安德鲁·杰克逊，我们之前谈过1812年战争，那是他对英国取得的重大胜利。
So Andrew Jackson, who we you know, we talked about the war of eighteen twelve, that was his great victory against the British.
我的意思是，他把自己定义为一名边疆拓荒者。
I mean, he defined himself as a as a frontiersman.
他最终
He kind of ended up
在纳什维尔，对吧？
in Nashville, think, didn't he?
还有林肯。
And and Lincoln.
林肯在他的木屋里。
Lincoln in his log cabin.
林肯确实是。
Lincoln is yeah.
经典的例子。
The classic example.
那种白手起家的人。
The sort of self made man.
我认为这绝对是美国身份的核心。
I think that's absolutely central to American identity.
还有，你之前提到的男子气概。
And so and masculinity, which you talked about earlier on.
边疆开拓者、牛仔这样的形象。
The idea of the frontiersman, the cowboy.
我的意思是，牛仔在美国流行文化中是个极其重要的形象。
I mean, the cowboy's such a huge figure in American popular culture.
我想，批评单一边疆观念的人会说，实际上存在多个边疆。
I guess I guess that that that the the criticism of of the idea of there being a single frontier is that actually there are multiple frontiers.
事实上，往往有太多边疆，因此更合理的理解方式是将其视为一种交流地带。
And in fact, there are often so many frontiers that it makes better sense really to think of it as a kind of, you know, a kind of zone of of of exchange.
因为除了北方人和原住民，还有加拿大人、法国人、墨西哥人，以及来自各种不同传统的人们在这里交汇。
Because as well as as Yankees and Native Americans, you've got Canadians, you've got French, you've got Mexicans, you've got people from all kinds of different traditions all kind of meeting up.
我想，在整个十九世纪，我们所说的西部是一个各种文化交汇的区域。
And I guess for much of the nineteenth century, the what we the West is a kind of zone where all of these are meeting.
是的。
Yeah.
这使它成为一个典型的边境地带，一个大熔炉，不是吗？
That makes it so it it is the kind of classic sort of border zone, the sort of melting pot, isn't it?
也就是说，很多牛仔其实是非裔美国人，还有亚裔美国人。
So the mean, I a lot of cowboys, there were black cowboys, you know, Asian Americans.
还有许多墨西哥人。
There were, you know, lots of of of of Mexicans.
那种约翰·韦恩式马车的形象，其实并不真实，
It's it the the sort of image of the John Wayne stagecoach kind of image, the searches, is
不是华工修建的
not Chinese laborers building the
是的。
Yeah.
铁路。
The railroads.
是的。
Yeah.
当然，还有一点需要记住的是，原住民部落也在扩张。
And and, of course, the other thing to to remember is that the Native American tribes are also kind of expanding.
这并不是像现在神话中所描述的那样，他们固守土地，生活在某个特定的地方，但事实并非如此。
It's not like, you know, the the the myth now might be that that they are rooted to the soil, that they, you know, they that they live in one particular place, but that that's not the case.
他们也常常向东扩张。
They also are expanding often eastwards.
他们都在四处迁徙。
They're all kind of sweeping.
我的意思是，科曼奇人，你知道，他们拥有一个庞大的势力范围，你甚至可以称之为一个帝国，不是吗？
So, I mean I mean, the Comanches are you know, they have this kind of huge mean, I you could call it an empire, couldn't you?
科曼奇帝国？
Comanche empire?
有科曼奇人谈论科曼奇帝国。
There's Comanche people talk about the Comanche empire.
没错。
Exactly.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这是一个充满争议的地区。
So so it's it's a very contested area.
但当然，最终因为美国获胜了，所以是美国边疆向西、向西、再向西推进的理念，当然也包括从加利福尼亚向东推进，象征着两条铁路的连接。
But, of course, ultimately, it because it's The United States that wins out, it's the idea of a United States frontier moving westwards, westwards, westwards, and of course, eastwards from California, symbolized by that joining up of the two the two railroads.
但说到西部片，我觉得有趣的是，它并不是完全事后才创造出来的。
But but just on the the western genre, I think what's so interesting about that is it is that it's not it's not completely created afterwards.
所以，西部秀在塑造西部浪漫形象方面起着关键作用。
So the Wild West show, which is key in creating the romantic image of the West.
那些表演西部秀的人——比如水牛比尔和卡利姆蒂·简这类角色——他们演出的时候，西部拓荒时代其实仍处于最后阶段。
So the people who who do these shows, the sort of Buffalo Bills and the and Calamity Jane and these kinds of characters, I mean, they're doing the shows at the same time as the as the Wild West is still in its final stages.
很难想象这些演出竟然如此受欢迎。
And though it's extraordinary to think how popular those shows are.
它们在1880年代和1890年代达到顶峰。
So they kind of peak in eighteen eighties, eighteen nineties.
它们在欧洲极其流行。
They're incredibly popular in Europe.
所以，等等，那些人。
So among the people wait.
如果你深入查证，看过水牛比尔演出的人中，德皇也看过。
If you look into it, the among the people who saw Buffalo Bill's show, the Kaiser saw it.
他是个忠实粉丝。
He was a big fan.
维多利亚女王也看过。
Queen Victoria saw it.
爱德华七世也看过。
Edward the seventh saw it.
乔治五世也看过。
George the fifth saw it.
我的意思是，这对欧洲人来说是巨大的娱乐，不仅面向普通民众，也面向欧洲精英阶层。
I mean, this is massive entertainment for Europe's kind of not just for the sort of common man, but for your the European elite.
希特勒在成长过程中阅读并热爱牛仔故事。
Hitler grew up reading cowboy stories and loving cowboy stories.
在1880年到1920年之间，这种形象深深植根于西方人的想象之中，其程度令人惊叹。
It's it's extraordinary extent to which it was embedded in the kind of in Western imagination between, let's say, 1880 and '8 1920.
但我觉得甚至在此之前，当野牛消失、人们感到土地唾手可得时，就有短短几年时间，各种欧洲贵族纷纷前往西部。
But I think even before that, because I think the moment that the buffalo cleared and you have this sense of there being land up for grabs, there is a kind of just a few years where all kinds of European aristocrats are going out to the West.
比如，丘吉尔的姑姑就是这样。
So you've got, I think Churchill's aunt.
有一位法国贵族建造了一座城堡。
God is a there's a French aristocrat who builds a chateau.
红男爵的祖父搬到了那里。
The the Red Baron's grandfather moves out there.
这我倒是不知道，说得真好。
That's a good didn't know
真的吗。
that.
他们只是短暂地存在过，当然，后来一切都出了问题，因为严冬来袭，所有牛群都被消灭，人们开始围上铁丝网，等等，然后……
Very, very fleetingly, they and then, of course, you you know, it all goes wrong because you the terrible winter, all the cattle get wiped out and people start putting up barbed wire and everything, and then you
是的。
have Yeah.
还有沙尘暴之类的事情。
Dust bowls and stuff.
本质上，西部变成了一片空旷之地，一个被忽略的飞越区。
And and, essentially, the West becomes an empty an empty space, a flyover zone.
但那正是关键所在，正因为那里空无一人，才有可能将幻想投射回去。
But that, of course, is what what then it because it's empty, it's possible then to project fantasy back onto it.
在我们深入讨论大量问题之前，先说一点吧。
Well, let's just say something before we get into lots of questions.
给你一个有趣的酒吧问答小知识。
A quick a nice pub quiz fact for you.
汤姆，你知道第一部西部片是什么吗？
Tom, do you know what the first Western was?
第一部西部电影是什么？
The first Western film?
不是那部由怀亚特·厄普参与顾问的电影。
It's not the one that Wyatt Eap advised on.
不是。
No.
不是。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
告诉我。
Tell me.
所以你想知道吗？你想知道它是在哪里拍摄的吗？
So do you wanna know and give me do you wanna know where it was filmed?
大概吧。
Probably.
我知道，我觉得是在那里拍摄的。
I think it was I I do know this.
是在湖区拍摄的，对吧？
It was filmed in the Lake District, wasn't it?
它是在兰开夏郡的布莱克本拍摄的。
It was filmed in Blackburn in Lancashire.
是的
Yeah.
在布莱克本。
In Blackburn.
对。
Yes.
我知道这一点。
I did know that.
对。
Yes.
确实。
Did.
所以它是一部
So it's
一部可以在网上看到的电影。
a film called you can see it online.
这部电影叫《印第安人绑架》，由米切尔和肯yon拍摄，他们是伟大的电影先驱。
It's called Kidnapping by Indians, and it was a film by Mitchell and Kenyon, the great sort of cinema pioneer.
所以这部电影拍摄于1903年的布莱克本，是第一部西部片。
So it's filmed in Blackburn in nineteen o three, and it's the first western movie.
影片时长一分钟，讲述了一位妇女带着她的婴儿或幼儿，几个印第安人袭击她，随后一位牛仔出现并击退了他们，故事就此结束。
It's a minute long, and it and there's a sort of a woman with her baby or her toddler, and a couple of Indians attack her, and then a cowboy appears and fights them off, and then that's the end of the story.
但这一点本身就说明，从一开始，这种题材就具有国际性。
But that in itself tells you just how international this was right from the very beginning.
当然，后来你有了塞尔吉奥·莱翁内的意大利式西部片等等，但即使在电影的早期阶段，
You know, obviously, later on, you have the spaghetti westerns of Sergio Leone and so on, but but even at the beginning of
那些影片不也正说明了我们一开始所讨论的吗？实际上，要理解西部，你必须想象自己回到一个可能被印第安人绑架的世界。
those doesn't it also does it not also point out what in a sense, we're talking about right at the beginning, which is that, actually, to understand the West, you have to imagine yourself back into a world where you could be kidnapped by Indians.
是的。
And Yeah.
你知道，如果你被卡曼奇人绑架了，那肯定非常可怕。
You know, if you get kidnapped by the Camanche, you know it's gonna be pretty horrible.
你知道，你会被活埋到脖子，眼睑被割掉，或者睾丸被割下塞进嘴里。
You know that, you know, you're gonna be buried up to your neck and have your your eyelids cut off or have your testicles cut off and stuffed in your mouth.
我的意思是，这些都是一些难以言表的恐怖事情。
I mean, it's it's all fairly unspeakable stuff.
因此，那种真实危险和生死攸关的元素，当然，一旦这种危险感消失，就为电影提供了完美的舞台。
And so the element of of danger, of real jeopardy, then, of course, once that sense of danger, jeopardy has gone, it provides a perfect stage for film.
我的意思是，这正是
I mean, that's
确实如此。
It does.
而且我认为，汤姆，西部狂野时代不也蓬勃发展吗？
And I and I think as well, the Wild West don't you think though, Tom, that the Wild West also flourishes?
我的意思是，这正是托尔金写作、中世纪题材大行其道的时期。
I mean, this is also the period when Tolkien is writing and when kind of medievalism is super popular.
换句话说，西部狂野时代是为生活在城市里、从未见过大平原的人们所创造的一个传奇。
And in other words, the Wild West is is a is a legend created for people who live in cities who who who are not you know, they they they don't see the Great Plains.
他们并不与自然和谐共处。
They don't live in communion with nature.
他们很少外出，你知道的，很少离开他们的工厂和办公室。
They don't get out, you know, they don't get out of their factories and their offices very much.
这有点像童子军，你知道的，巴登-鲍威尔和《所罗门王的宝藏》这类英国帝国冒险故事的浪漫情怀。
And this it's a bit like the Boy Scouts in a way, you know, Baden Powell's and and the and the romance of kind of King Solomon's Mines and all these sort of British imperial adventure stories.
这是为日益城市化的人群提供的逃避现实方式。
It's escapism for people for an increasingly urban population.
这就是我想说的
That's what I
所以我们这里有一个来自塞尔瓦·杜尔菲奇的问题：是什么让这个时期催生了神话般的牛仔枪手？为什么在我们的文化中，这种战士传奇如此持久？
So we got a Dominic, we got a question here from Selva Durficic, who says, what is it about this period that led to the creation of the mythic cowboy gunslinger, and why throughout our culture has this warrior legend become so enduring?
所以我认为，某种程度上，你已经基本上回答了这个问题。
So I think in a way, you've you've you've, you know, you've basically answered that.
但对啊。
But Yeah.
不过，还有，你提到的关于男子气概的问题，汤姆，这确实有很多这方面的东西，对吧？
Although, also, the gunslinger your point your point about masculinity, Tom, there's a lot of that in it, isn't there?
枪战，你不这么认为吗？
Gun slaying, don't you think?
我的意思是，有一种克林特·伊斯特伍德式的刻板形象，或者约翰·韦恩式的刻板形象，那种沉默寡言、下颌坚毅的人物。
I mean, there's a sort of the Clint Eastwood sort of stereotype or the John Wayne stereotype, this sort of taciturn granite jawed figure.
我的意思是，这和女性争取选举权运动兴起的时间点同时出现，是巧合吗？
I mean, is it coincidence that that emerges at the time when the women's suffrage movement is taking off?
你知道的，当男性似乎变得更加女性化的时候？
You know, when men are seeming maybe more feminized?
我不知道。
I don't know.
所以，这就是为什么我认为最有趣的西部片是《正午》。
So so that's that's why I think almost the most interesting western.
作为美国研究专家，我不知道你们是否同意这一点，但作为一面反映美国文化的镜子，我认为《正午》是最合适的。
I don't I knew as an American specialist, any, we'd agree with this, but but as a kind of mirror held up to American culture would be High Noon.
《正午》的剧情是，有一群匪徒正骑马前往小镇，要枪杀那位曾将匪首关进监狱的警长，而匪首刚刚出狱。
Because the plot of High Noon is, you know, there's a bandit the bunch of bandits who are riding down on the town to to gun down the, the sheriff who'd put away the, the leader of the the bandits who's been let out of prison.
他是一位贵格会教徒的新郎，他们本打算去度蜜月。
And he is, he's Quaker bride, and they're due to go off and enjoy their honeymoon.
但他觉得自己必须留在小镇上保卫它。
But he feels that he has to stay in the town and and defend it.
而他的贵格会新娘，格蕾丝·凯利，说：如果你这么做，我就离开你。
And the Quaker bride, Grace Kelly, says, you know, if you if you if you do this, I'm going to leave you.
他的丈夫，由加里·库珀饰演的警长，坚持留下，因为他觉得这是他的责任。
And her husband, the the the marshal, played by Gary Cooper, insists on saying because he feels that that's his duty.
正是这一点，使得这部电影成为罗纳德·里根和比尔·克林顿的最爱，这很有趣。
And it's this that then make it's basically, it's Ronald Reagan's favorite film and Bill Clinton's and interesting.
你提到了托尼·萨普隆诺。
You mentioned Tony Soprano.
这其实是托尼·萨普隆诺的电影。
It's Tony Soprano's film.
托尼·索普拉诺其实是在说：为什么现在没人像加里·库珀那样坚强而沉默了呢？
And Tony Soprano is Tony Soprano is kinda saying, I want you know, why aren't people strong and silent like Gary Cooper anymore?
对里根和克林顿来说，这关乎克服困难，因为《正午》里的镇民们软弱、怯懦，不肯支持他。
And for Reagan and Clinton, it's about overcoming you know, because the townspeople in in in High Noon are are feckless and cowardly and and and won't back him.
这关乎在一切逆境中坚持做正确的事。
It's about doing the right thing in the face of everything.
希特勒和斯大林都喜欢西部片，汤姆。
Both both Hitler and Stalin loved westerns, Tom.
所以这背后是不是有什么深层原因呢？
So that sort of there's something about that, isn't there?
关于那种男性英雄、那种反抗精神，我想，但这些西部片中也总弥漫着一种末日感。
About the sort of the male hero, the defying, you know, defying, I guess but there's also a sense of doom that hangs over a lot of these westerns.
因为你知道，主角不仅可能走向毁灭，整个世界也注定走向毁灭。
Because you know that not only is maybe is the protagonist potentially doomed, but the world is doomed as well.
我认为，正是这种感觉赋予了它们一种浪漫的色彩，你不觉得吗？
I think that was what gives it this sort of romantic edge, don't you think?
是的。
Yes.
而且again，这种男性英雄时代的气息实际上正受到和平所带来的所谓女性化倾向的威胁。
And again, it's it's the sense that this masculine age of of of heroism is actually threatened by Yeah.
通常被看作是和平所带来的女性化冲动。
What is often cast as the kind of feminizing impulses of peace.
所以《正午》中的格蕾丝·凯利角色，她渐渐被说服，认为站在丈夫身边是她的责任。
So the Grace Kelly figure in in High Noon, she she she's kind of persuaded that that actually it's her duty to stand by her man.
你知道的，那首著名的歌：‘不要抛弃我，我的爱人’。
You know, do not forsake me, oh, my darling, the famous song.
她最终从背后开枪打死了那个坏蛋。
And she ends up shooting the the the baddie in the back.
但如果她没有这么做，那么你知道，警长就会被枪杀。
And then they but but but but if she hadn't, then then, you know, the marshal would be would be shot.
是的。
Yeah.
而且这也是
And it's also
《西部往事》的剧情。
the plot Once Upon a Time in the West.
所以塞尔吉奥·莱翁内的这部伟大电影。
So Sergio Leone's great film.
所以，是的，那位女性才是主角。
So that, yeah, the woman the woman is the protagonist.
克劳迪娅·卡汀娜是主角。
Claudia Cardinale is the protagonist.
铁路的到来。
There's the coming of the railroad.
所有那些老式枪手基本上都死了。
All the sort of old gunslingers basically end up dead.
亨利·方达和……
Henry Fondur and Go.
而她最终被独自留下。
And she is left alone at the end, basically.
她现在成为了将主宰西部的决定性人物。
She is now the defining person who's going to sort of rule the West.
铁路已经到来。
The railroad has come.
旧时代已经消逝。
The old age is gone.
而这正是我认为那种逝去时代、失落的骑士精神感的一部分，这种骑士精神常常在这些故事中扮演重要角色。
And that that's part of, I think, that sort of sense of a vanished age, of a lost age of chivalry, and that chivalry often sort of plays a part in these in these in these things.
我认为你可以将这种模式映射到西部片的故事中，比如《正午》《搜索者》或《驿站马车》之类的。
There's a kind of I think that you can map onto the stories of the Old West, like High Noon and like The Searchers or Stagecoach or whatever.
关于骑士的故事。
Stories about knights.
关于那个身披闪亮盔甲的英雄的故事。
Stories about, you know, the hero in shining armor.
所以，再回到欧文·威斯特和《弗吉尼亚人》，他的观点明显带有种族主义色彩，认为盎格鲁-撒克逊种族是最初的游侠骑士。
And so again, to go back to Owen Wister and and the Virginian, I mean, was kind of overtly racist in his sense that the Anglo Saxon race were this kind you know, they were the knight original knights errant.
从某种意义上说，劣等种族必须被清除，这包括墨西哥人以及原住民。
And that in a sense, inferior races had to be cleared out of the way, which would include, you know, Mexicans as as well as Native Americans.
我认为，这也是西部狂野神话文化发展中的一部分，正是这一点让它在当下备受争议。
And I think that that's another kind of element in the the the the cultural development of the Wild West myth that makes it obviously furiously contested at the moment.
我们来回答一些问题吧。
Let's do some questions.
我们来回答一些问题吧。
Let's do some questions.
你想选哪一个？
Do you wanna pick one?
格雷戈里·多尔提出的这个问题挺有意思的。
Well, that's an interesting one from Gregory Doyle.
美国和加拿大的西部拓荒经历有何不同？
How different were the American Canadian experiences of the Wild West?
因为加拿大也有自己的西部拓荒时期。
Because, course, Canada had a Wild West as well.
持枪的警长与 unarmed 的骑警，是两种刻板印象，还是反映了根本性的差异？
Are the gun slinging sheriffs versus the unarmed mounties both caricatures or demonstrative of fundamental differences?
我希望你能回答这个问题，汤姆，因为我其实知道答案。
I hope you're gonna answer this, Tom, because I actually know.
你对此有什么看法吗？
You got any views on that
完全吗？
at all?
我没有任何看法。
I have no views.
我就像H。
I'm like H.
P。
P.
泰勒在第一次问答环节，当被问到住房问题时。
Taylor on the very first question time when they asked him a question about housing.
他说，我对这个问题完全没有意见。
And he said, I have absolutely no opinion about this.
我一直很钦佩他这一点，而且我一直寻找机会这样做，而提到加拿大就是我这么做的机会。
So always thought I've always admired him for that, but and and look for an opportunity to do it, and the first mention of Canada is my chance to do that.
但加拿大也有自己的淘金热，就在那里。
Well, but Canada had a had a gold rush as well with the club there.
而且它也有一个西部，一个边疆。
And it and it had a and it had a West it had a frontier.
我的意思是，它还有原住民。
I mean, and it had native Americans.
是的。
Yes.
但定居程度要低得多。
But but but much less heavily settled.
是的。
Yeah.
所以小大黄蜂和疯马在小大角河战役后，能够撤退到边境并留在那里。
So Sitting Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse after the battle of Little League, Bighorn were able to retreat across the frontier and and stay there.
他们并不喜欢，但觉得那里太无聊了。
They didn't like but they found it so boring.
天哪。
Oh god.
他们又跨了回去。
That they they crossed back.
基本上，虽然这么说，但我还是去了一个叫德鲁梅勒的地方，因为那里有世界上最好的恐龙博物馆，而且还有酒吧，镜子上方保留着精心修复的弹孔。
Basically, love but but having said that, think so I went to a place called Drumheller again because it has the world's best dinosaur museum, but it also has saloons where there are bullet holes over the mirror, carefully preserved.
所以偶尔会发生枪战。
So there were the occasional shootout.
但克朗代克才是骑警神话的真正起源地，因为那是一个经典案例。
But the Klondike, that's kinda that's where the myth of the Mounties essentially comes from because it's it's a a classic.
你知道，那里有妓院、枪战、淘金者，一切都在发生。
You know, there are the bordellos and the shootouts and the gold prospectors and everything happening there.
而骑警进去后，就把局面给镇压下去了。
And the Mounties go in and they, you know, they they kinda muscle it down.
但同时，淘金热也是杰克·伦敦两部伟大小说《野性的呼唤》和《白牙》的背景，这两部作品堪称对这一主题的精彩探索，而且故事发生在加拿大。
But, also, the the the the conduct gold rush is the setting for Jack London's two great novels, The Call of the Wild and White Fang, which is, you know, kind of brilliant explorations of that whole theme, and they're set in Canada.
所以我认为，西部神话中也有加拿大的维度。
So I think there are Canadian dimensions to the Wild West myth.
嗯，不只是加拿大的维度。
Well, not just Canadian dimensions.
安德鲁·杰伊有个非常好的问题。
So Andrew Jay has a really good question.
他想问关于俄罗斯的事。
He wants to ask about Russia.
他说，这和俄罗斯在罗曼诺夫王朝时期向东扩张的情况相比如何？
He says, how does it compare with Russian expansion under the Roman officer, Russia expanding east?
两者都经历了大规模的扩张。
Both saw massive expansion.
他们在阿拉斯加附近有所交汇。
They meet to a certain extent near Alaska.
俄罗斯人也有类似的天定命运观念吗？
Do Russians have a similar sense of manifest destiny?
我会说，绝对有。
And I would say, absolutely, they do.
这对我来说是一个非常有趣的平行现象。
There is that that is a, to me, a really interesting parallel.
俄罗斯人正是在这一时期向东扩张。
The Russians are expanding at pretty much exactly this point.
他们向东进入西伯利亚，那里显然人烟稀少，但同时也向中亚扩张。
So they're going east into Siberia, which is obviously not very settled, but they're also going into Central Asia.
某种程度上，俄罗斯的牛仔就是哥萨克人。
And to some extent, the Russian equivalent of the cowboys, Cossack.
你知道，他们身处边疆。
You know, they're on the frontier.
他们不受监管。
They're unregulated.
他们武装齐全。
They are armed.
他们极具阳刚之气。
They are hypermasculine.
他们是，你知道的，法外之徒。
They are you know, they're they're outlaws.
他们是自由掠夺者，诸如此类的人。
They're freebooters, all this sort of thing.
所以，你知道，牛仔在美洲之外也有类似的形象。
So, you know, cowboys do have analogies outside The Americas.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yep.
不错的东西。
Good stuff.
好的。
Okay.
那么，我们还剩多少时间？
Well, here's are we how much longer have we got?
我们时间很充裕。
Are we Loads of time.
好的。
Okay.
这真是个好问题。
Well, this is a this is a great question.
杰夫·阿内洛，关于旧西部最根深蒂固的错误迷思是什么？
Jeff Anello, what's the stickiest myth about the Old West that is patently wrong?
天啊。
Gosh.
这是个好问题。
That's a good question.
还是A.J.P.泰勒。
AJP Taylor again.
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
很多。
A lot
很多传说都源于一定的事实，对吧？
of the myths are anchored in have a grain of truth, don't they?
你提到了妓院。
So you mentioned bordellos.
我的意思是，妓院之所以存在，部分是因为当时有大量矿工和牛仔，这很明显。
I mean, bordellos, you know, they were a thing partly to they they sprang up to there were so many minors and and cowboys, obviously.
我想但是否
I suppose But did
所有的妓女都有心吗？
all the tarts have hearts?
什么？
What?
每个人都有心啊，汤姆。
Well, everybody's got a heart, Tom.
你肯定知道这一点。
Surely you know that.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我从未见过没有心的妓女。
I've never met a tart without a heart.
那是因为
That's for
当然。
sure.
是的。
Yeah.
总之，说到卡米思，那牛仔呢？
Anyway, on the Carmith, what about cowboys?
我觉得我们对牛仔的印象可能是这样的，也就是说，当牛仔其实特别无聊。
I think cowboys the the our sense of cowboys is probably I mean, being a cowboy was unbelievably boring.
我的意思是，你大部分时间都骑在马背上，每年只进行两次牛群清点，把需要烙印的小牛从其他牛群里分出来。
I mean, you sort of spent so much time in the saddle, then you did your two roundups every year where you separated out the calves to be branded from the rest of the sort of herd.
这非常辛苦。
It's very grueling.
牛仔通常都很年轻。
The cowboys are often young.
他们大多在青春期就开始干这行，后来有些人成了内战退伍军人。
They're kind of they start off when they're adolescents, then later on some of them are civil war veterans.
但实际发生的枪战要少得多。
But it's and there's much less shooting.
所以牛仔有时会携带步枪，但他们和枪手并不是同一类人。
So cowboys do carry rifles sometimes, but they're they're not the same people as the gunslingers.
因此，我们通常以为的枪手——那些被当作牛仔的人——其实是侦察兵、捕猎者，或者前内战军官，但他们并不是牛仔。
So often the gunslingers, who we think of as cowboys, are scouts or trappers or, you know, ex civil war officers, but they're not cowboys.
他们是完全不同的一类人。
They're different kind of people.
所以我会说，牛仔可能是最大的一个神话。
So I would say maybe the cowboy is the big is the big myth.
你是否可以进一步说，牛仔和印第安人的概念本身就是一个神话？
And would you expand that to say that actually the idea of cowboys and Indians is a myth?
因为关于牛仔，关键不就是这一点吗？
Because isn't the point about cowboys Yeah.
牛仔们把德克萨斯长角牛之类的牲畜从北部赶往怀俄明州和蒙大拿州，是因为野牛和印第安人都已经消失了。
That that that the cowboys are moving the Texas longhorns or whatever it is from up into Wyoming and Montana because the buffalo and and the Indians have gone.
所以基本上，你知道，那里已经没有了？
So there's basically, there isn't you know?
是的。
Yeah.
实际上，你说得对。
So, actually, you're right.
真正大量杀害印第安人的，是军队里的那些人，或者像你说的，是民兵团伙，但他们根本不是牛仔。
The the cowboys the people who really kill a lot of Indians in the army Yeah.
我的意思是，那根本不是牛仔的职责。
Or or sort of vigilante bands, as you say, but they're not really cowboys.
没错，那不是牛仔的工作。
I mean, that's not a cowboy's job.
牛仔并不是去大量屠杀印第安人的。
A cowboy's not there to kinda go and kill lots of Indians.
牛仔的职责是照顾——主要是照顾牛群。
A cowboy is there to look after the I mean, to look after the the the cattle, basically.
所以，你说得对。
So, yeah, you're right.
牛仔与印第安人的神话并不完全正确。
The cowboys versus Indians myth is not quite right.
是的。
Yeah.
那么也许是这一个。
So maybe that one.
好的。
Okay.
所以，或许另一个误解是，西部拓荒时代存在着明确的好人与坏人之分。
So so perhaps another one would be the idea actually that there are goodies and baddies in the Wild West.
是的。
Yeah.
确实存在这样一群人，你知道的，有戴白帽子的和戴黑帽子的整个群体。
That there are there are peoples with, you know, there are entire groups of people with white hats and black hats.
但显然这种观念已经被颠倒了，不是吗？
But that's obviously been turned on its head, hasn't it?
所以现在毫无疑问了。
So now there's no question.
我今天早上刚读到一篇美国历史学家的文章，谈到了道德视角已经完全改变了。
I was only reading this morning an essay by an American historian talking about how the moral lens has completely changed.
因此，如今盎格鲁-美国的资本主义拓荒者常常被描绘成特别邪恶的一方。
So now Anglo American capitalist settlers are are often painted as uniquely bad.
你知道，他们就是反派，而印第安人呢，你知道他们在做什么吗？
You know, they are just the baddies, and the Indians are sort of you know, what are the Indians doing?
他们似乎在吸毒、与灵体沟通，亲近自然之类的。
They're sort of taking drugs and and communing with spirits and and being close to nature and stuff.
而这一点在那种说法中有点被忽略了，那就是印第安文化常常极其暴力，以我们今天的标准来看，这种暴力真的让人非常不适。
And and what's sort of slightly lost from that is the fact that the, you know, Indian culture was often incredibly violent in a way that we would now find really quite quite off putting.
嗯，是的，我们提到过科曼奇人施加酷刑的记录，这确实非常可怕。
Well, yes, we mentioned the the Comanche record with torture, which is really quite quite something and terrifying.
但我认为，我们所理解的大平原文化也深受欧洲人带来的影响。
But I guess also the the the the what we think of as the the Great Plains culture is very, very influenced by what Europeans are bringing.
也就是说，它依赖于马。
So, I mean, it's dependent on the horse.
它依赖于步枪。
It's dependent on the rifle.
是的。
Yeah.
而且我认为
And I think that
同样，那种截然对立的观念并不完全准确。
Again, it's that sense of there being a stark division isn't quite true.
两者实际上在相互影响。
Both are kind of influencing the other.
因为事实上，许多印第安人花大部分时间在互相战斗，而不是与白人作战。
Because actually, a lot of Indians spend most of their time fighting each other, not fighting the white man.
所以，他们未能抵抗美国扩张的一个原因是，这符合帝国主义和征服的经典叙事——原住民往往花大量时间彼此争斗、争吵，或者试图利用定居者来对抗自己的敌人，而不只是抵抗新来者。
So, I mean, what's one reason why they are why they they fail to resist American expansion is because they you know, it's the classic story of imperialism and conquest that often the the indigenous people spend as much time fighting each other or quarreling or thinking how they can they can use the settlers to play against their enemies as much as they do as much as they do in kind of resisting the the newcomers.
但事实上，亚历克斯·西霍斯特提出了一个问题，这个问题是整个主题背后的核心。
But actually, Alex Shiphorst has this question, which is the which is the question underlying this whole subject.
关于对当地原住民实施的杀戮和暴行，能否将其归类为种族灭绝，还是说情况更为复杂？
Can about the kill can the killing and atrocities carried out on local native populations be categorized as genocide, or is this or is it more nuanced?
我的意思是，我们能谈论对美洲原住民的种族灭绝吗？
I mean, can we talk of genocide of native Americans?
汤姆，你怎么看？
Tom, what do you think?
我认为，这是一个极其困难但又必须面对的问题。
This is such a difficult but necessary question, I think.
我认为，野牛的灭绝是一种文化灭绝的尝试，而且基本上成功了。
I I think that the annihilation of the buffalo was an attempt at cultural genocide that basically pretty much worked.
我不认为他们想要彻底消灭每一个美洲原住民。
I I don't think that, you know, they didn't want to wipe out every last Native American.
但随着铁路和军队向西扩张，这与一种伪达尔文主义思潮相吻合。
But that expansion westwards with the the the railroad and the the army moving in coincided with a kind of a cod Darwinism.
当达尔文主义作为一种流行观念真正兴起时，情况就是这样。
It's it's when Darwinism is really kicking in as a kind of a popular idea.
然后，它似乎被美国精英阶层中的很大一部分人所接受。
And then it seems to to have lent to large elements of the American elites.
他们有一种感觉，那就是所谓的‘天定命运’——红种人应当在白种人崛起面前退让和衰落。
The sense that, it was kind of, you know, if you like, the manifest destiny
是的。
Yeah.
红种人应当在白种人崛起面前退让和衰落。
Of the red man to retreat and be diminished before the rise of the white man.
这当中显然带有种族因素。
And there was definitely a kind of racial component to that.
当谢里丹将军下令灭绝野牛时，他有意识地说过，著名的那句话是，草原上将遍布斑点牛和欢快的牛仔。
And when when when general Sheridan gave the order that that the buffalo should be wiped out, he was consciously say you know, he had this kind of famous phrase that it would, you know, the Prairies would be covered with speckled cattle and the festive cowboy.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但那根本没什么欢快可言。
You know, there was nothing festive about it.
他他他
He he he
他知道自己在做什么。
knew what he was doing.
谢里丹将军就是那个说‘唯一的印第安人就是死掉的印第安人’的人，汤姆。
He he was But general Sheraton is the man, Tom, who says, the only good Indian is a dead Indian.
你知道的？
You know?
是的。
Yeah.
有点难的是，长期以来，人们总是把这句话当作一种近乎幽默的、充满冒险精神的格言来引用。
It's kinda hard to the the weird thing is that for so long, people would quote that as a sort of almost an amusing, you know, swashbuckling saying.
而如今，我觉得这变得非常困难了。
Whereas now, I think it's very hard.
我的意思是，我是个非常不‘觉醒’的人。
I mean, I speak as somebody who's very unwoke.
我的意思是，按‘觉醒’的标准来看，我基本上是个睡着的人。
I mean, I'm basically fast asleep by kind of woke standards.
但我发现，读到这些内容时，很难不感到非常矛盾、深受触动。
But but I find it hard to to read some of this stuff without feeling, you know, very conflicted, very moved.
我我我我我觉得奇怪的是
I I I I I and I think people the weird thing
在美国，人们常说美国的原罪是奴隶的输入。
with America, right, is that people talk about America's original sin being the the importation of slaves.
当然，如今美国社会充斥着关于奴隶制遗产以及非裔美国人所遭受不公的争论。
And and, of course, America is now a society suffused with arguments about the legacy of slavery and about, you know, the injustices that have been done to African Americans.
但对我来说，这么多美国州的建立本质上是基于对原住民的灭绝。
But for me that, you know, so many of these American states are founded on basically the extermination of their native population.
我的意思是，你不需要多么‘觉醒’就能看到这一点，也知道这不应该被掩盖起来。
I mean, I don't think you have to be terribly woke to to see that and to see that as as well, not something that, you know, not something that should be swept under the carpet.
我认为这值得讨论。
I mean, think it is worth discussing.
我认为，我们完全可以在忠于美洲原住民所经历的悲剧与恐怖的同时，不单从二十一世纪的视角来看待它。
And I think that it's it's possible to to to kinda be true to the the tragedy and the horror of what happened to the Native Americans and not merely view it from the point of view of the twenty first century.
因为当时有很多人对正在发生的事情感到震惊和恐惧。
Because there were there were plenty of people who, you know, were horrified by what was happening and and stunned by it.
所以当坐牛在保留地里，受到管理人种种刁难时，前来调解的人竟然是水牛比尔·科迪，正如你所说，他曾带着坐牛环游世界。
So when when Sitting Bull is in his reservation and getting all kinds of grief from the guy running the reservation, the person who comes and tries to sort it out is Buffalo Bill Cody, who, as you said, you know, took Sitting Bull with him around the world.
还有一个令人心碎的故事：当坐牛被枪杀时，他的马原本被训练在表演中跳特定的舞蹈，而它听到了枪声。
And there's this terrible story that that when Sitting Bull gets shot, his horse has been kind of trained to do this dance routine as part of the show, and he hears the gunshot.
当坐牛躺在那里奄奄一息时，那匹马还在跳着舞蹈。
And as Sitting Bull is lying there bleeding to death, the horse is doing this dance routine.
我认为，布法罗·比尔对此做出了回应。
And I think that, you know, Buffalo Bill responded to that.
你知道吗？
You know?
我的意思是，他感受到了其中的残酷、悲剧以及损失的规模。
I mean, he's he's he's he's sensed the cruelty of that and the the tragedy of it and and and the scale of the loss.
因此，《伤膝河：印第安人灵魂的安息之地》这本书，你知道，那本著名的著作，本质上是深吸一口气。
And in that sense, Bury My Heart at Wounding Knee, which is, you know, the the famous book that essentially Deep breath.
重新调整了我对西部神话的看法——我认为这和那些更颂扬胜利的西部片一样，真实地反映了西部神话。
Recalibrated the I don't think it's an you know, I think that that is that is true to the the myth of the West in the same way that the the kind of more triumphalist westerns are as well.
我认为这始终是故事的一部分。
I think that was always part of the story.
我认为这种感觉——这就是为什么我把它和荷马史诗以及亚瑟王传说相提并论，因为这些神话之所以强大，不仅因为它们关乎自夸、暴力和男性荣耀。
I think the sense of that that's you know, it's it's and that's why I compared it to to Homer and to and to King Arthur, is that those myths are powerful because they're not just about braggadocio and and and violence and and and masculine glory.
它们也传达了一种理解：没有毁灭、废墟和死亡，就不可能有这些。
They are also about an understanding that you can't have that without destruction and ruin and death.
那么，说到这里，这就是我的
Well, on that note, so that's my
我的，不是吗？
my isn't it?
到我的，到
To my to
我的夸耀与尚武荣耀，与汤姆的毁灭和死亡。
my braggadocio in martial glory, to Tom's destruction and death.
好吧，现在我要念一下制片人写的欢快结尾，就为了让大家开心一下。
Well, now now I'm gonna I'm gonna read out the the jolly script ending that the producer has written just to cheer people up.
他写道：狂野的西部已经被驯服。
And he's written, the Wild West has been tamed.
是时候挂起马刺，脱下靴子了。
Time to hang up our spurs and kick off our boots.
这个小镇容不下我们两个人，汤姆。
This town ain't big enough for the both of us, Tom.
下次见。
See you next time.
如果有人抱怨说这些播客内容单一，那他们就大错特错了，因为我们能在六十秒内展现各种各样的情绪。
So if people complain this these are one note podcasts, they're quite wrong because we do all kinds of emotions emotions in the space of sixty seconds.
汤姆，下次见。
Tom, see you next time.
耶哈。
Yeehaw.
感谢收听《余史》。
Thanks for listening to the rest is history.
如需获取附加剧集、提前收听、无广告播放以及加入我们的聊天社区，请前往 restishistorypod.com 注册。
For bonus episodes, early access, ad free listening, and access to our chat community, please sign up at restishistorypod.com.
网址是 restishistorypod.com。
That's restishistorypod.com.
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