433. 路德：改变世界的人（上）

总之，不好意思。

Anyway, sorry.

继续吧。

Continue.

所以他们显然也非常虔诚。

So they're clearly also very pious.

因此他们以圣马丁命名了马丁，来自托尔姆。

So they named Martin after Saint Martin of Tor Mhmm.

因为他的生日第二天就是圣马丁节。

Because the day after his born is the feast day of Saint Martin.

所以他的名字就是这么来的。

So that's where his his name comes from.

他们尤其敬奉圣母玛利亚的母亲——圣安妮，她被奉为未成年人的守护圣人。

And they are particularly devoted to the mother of the Virgin Mary, Saint Anne, who is enshrined as the patron saint of minors.

她将在路德的一生中扮演重要角色，我们稍后会看到。

And she will play an important role in Luther's life, as we will see later on.

她不是那种新教徒后来声称根本不存在的人吗？

Is she not somebody who Protestants will go on to claim doesn't exist?

我们不谈这些了。

We're not getting into all that.

好的。

Okay.

我只是随便提一下。

I'm just gonna throw that out there.

我觉得他们应该会承认她存在，只是不一定能向她祈祷。

Oh, I think I think they'd accept that she exists, just that you can't kind of necessarily pray to her.

好的。

Okay.

汉斯的社会地位不断提升，马丁是他最年长的幸存儿子。

So Hans is very upwardly mobile, and Martin is his eldest surviving son.

因此他决定投资于他的教育，而正如我们一直说的，这在任何涉及社会阶层上升的未成年人的故事中都非常典型。

And so he decides that he's going to invest in his education, which, again, you know, we've been saying is kind of very, very familiar to any drama involving upwardly mobile minors.

他这么做，我想是因为他希望马丁长大后成为一名律师。

And he wants to do this, I think, because he wants Martin to grow up and become a lawyer.

成为一名律师后，他就能帮助汉斯处理合同、生意等事务。

And as a lawyer, he will then be able to help Hans with his contracts, with his business, and so on.

是的。

Yeah.

完全说得通。

Makes total sense.

于是，年轻的路德被送到图林根州一个叫艾森纳赫的学校。

So the young Luther is sent to a school in a place called Eisenach in Thuringia.

他被送到那里的一個原因，是因为那是他母亲的故乡。

And one of the reasons that he sent there is that this is where his mother comes from.

艾森纳赫是一个被一座宏伟城堡主导的地方，这座城堡坐落在一个名为瓦特堡的陡峭悬崖上。

And Isaac is a place that is dominated by a huge castle on a great precipice called the Wartburg.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且这一点在路德的故事中会占据重要地位。

And again, this will feature strongly in Luther's story.

是的。

Yeah.

当路德到达那里时，它因一位名叫约翰·希尔顿的方济各会修士而闻名，他将在本世纪末去世。

And it is famous when Luther arrives there as the home of a Franciscan monk called Johann Hilton, who will die at the end of the century.

因此，从15世纪末到16世纪初，他被囚禁在修道院的牢房里，据说临终前用自己的血书写。

So the kind of the turn from the fourteen hundreds to the fifteen hundreds confined to a cell in the monastery and supposedly writing in his own blood before he dies.

关于他的令人兴奋之处在于，他是一位末世先知。

And the thing that's exciting about him is that he is an apocalyptic prophet.

对。

Right.

他预言了教皇制的覆灭，多米尼克·耶普。

And he is foretelling the ruin of the papacy, Dominic Yep.

以及修道制度的瓦解和一位伟大改革者的到来，不可能。

And the ruin of monasticism and the coming of a great reformer No way.

他将在1516年改变世界。

Who will change the world in the year 1516.

哦，他只差一年。

Oh, he's just a year out.

我的意思是，1516年即将到来。

Well, I mean, the coming in the year 1516.

我的意思是，路德在1516年一定正在为此做准备。

I mean, Luther must be gearing up to it in 1516.

就末世主题而言，我觉得他和这个人在那里真的很有趣。

So just on the apocalyptic theme, I think that's really interesting that he's there and this guy is there.

因为路德一定知道他。

Because Luther must have known about him.

他一定是镇上很有名的人物。

He must have been a well known figure in the town.

是的。

Yes.

我确信。

I'm sure.

我的意思是，如果你用血写字。

I mean, if you're writing things in blood.

是的。

Yes.

所以路德现在处于15世纪90年代末。

So Luther is now this is the late fourteen nineties.

所以路德正处于十几岁到二十岁出头的阶段，这是非常关键的形成期。

So Luther is in his mid to late teens, very formative time.

如果我们把视角拉远一点，退后来看，你就能明白为什么15世纪90年代及之后，末世先知如此盛行，对吧？

And actually, if we zoom out as it were, pull the camera back, you can see why apocalyptic prophets are very, very much in vogue in the fourteen nineties and so on, aren't they?

因为当时欧洲人的生活整体上都弥漫着一种末世氛围，你知道，我们觉得现在的新闻头条已经够糟了，但15世纪末的情况简直更糟糕。

Because there's a sort of apocalyptic tone to European life more generally because, you know, we think the headlines are terrible now, but they're pretty dreadful at the end of the fifteenth century.

所以发生的一件大事是，法国人在1494年发动了对意大利的大规模入侵，最终引发了长达半个世纪的混乱与屠杀。

So the huge thing that has happened is that the French have launched this massive invasion of Italy in 1494, which ends up kicking off half a century of sort of chaos and carnage.

梅毒正在法军中传播，这是它在欧洲首次被发现。

Syphilis is spreading through the French troops, first time it's been known in Europe.

这一切最终将在1527年罗马遭洗劫时达到顶峰，那是一个极其可怕的时刻。

And this is all gonna culminate in the sack of Rome in 1527, which is this absolutely dreadful moment.

但更甚于此的是，奥斯曼帝国在巴尔干地区的扩张也由此拉开序幕。

But even more than that, the whole business with the Ottomans is kicked off in the Balkans.

奥斯曼帝国在穆罕默德二世、塞利姆一世，当然还有苏莱曼大帝的统治下不断扩张。

So the Ottomans are expanded under Mehmet and Selim and then, of course, Suleiman the Magnificent.

最著名的事态——想必也深植于路德心中，正如它深植于基督教世界每一个人的心中——

And the most famous thing which would have happened, you know, it must be in Luther's mind as it's in the mind of every single person in Christendom

是的。

Yeah.

是君士坦丁堡于1453年陷落。

Is that Constantinople had fallen in 1453.

不仅如此，多米尼克，因为1480年，意大利城市奥特朗托曾被奥斯曼帝国占领并控制了一年之久。

Well and not just Constantinople, Dominic, because in 1480, actually, an Italian city, Atranta, for a year has been seized and occupied by the Ottomans.

因此，我认为希尔顿在他的预言中说土耳其人最终会征服德国和意大利，并不令人惊讶。

And so I think it's not surprising that that Hilton in his prophecies says that the Turks are going to end up conquering Germany and Italy.

但人们真的这么想，不是吗？

But people genuinely think that, though, don't they?

他们确实这么想。

They do.

是的。

Yeah.

几个世纪以来，人们第一次真正认为这是末日来临。

For the first time in in centuries, they genuinely think these are the end times.

你知道，基督教世界将被吞没。

You know, Christendom is going to be rolled up.

是的。

Yeah.

伊斯兰教即将来临。

The Islam is coming.

所以，在他关于宗教改革的书中，达蒙·麦克库洛赫说，你根本无法理解宗教改革。

So in his book on the reformation, Damon McCulloch says, you cannot understand the reformation at all.

如果不认识到在他们看来，他们正生活在基督教文明世界的末日，你就无法理解路德或当时任何人内心的想法。

You cannot understand what's going on in Luther's mind or anybody's mind at the time without realizing that as they see it, they are living in the end of days for Christian civilization in the world.

那种黑暗正在来临。

That sort of darkness is coming.

它以奥斯曼帝国的形式具体化。

It's personified by the Ottoman Empire.

因此，当你回顾十五世纪末的景象时，会发现许多末日预言。

And that's why when you look across the scene in the end of the fifteenth century, there are apocalyptic prophecies.

人们谈论着怪异的分娩事件。

There's talk of kind of monstrous births.

所有这类事情都层出不穷。

There's all that kind of stuff.

而路德身处这座小镇，那里有个人被关押着，他必定也在吸收着这些氛围。

And Luther must be absorbing that when he's in this town where this bloke is locked up.

当然。

Of course.

而且有人说，一位改革者将在1516年出现，教皇权将被摧毁，土耳其人将征服德国，世界将在17世纪50年代终结。

And saying that there's gonna be this reformer who's gonna emerge in 1516, that the papacy is going to be destroyed, that the Turks are going to conquer Germany, and that the world is going to end in the sixteen fifties.

17世纪50年代。

Sixteen fifties.

这非常精确。

That's very precise.

非常精确。

Very precise.

这些都是路德童年时期的背景。

This is all the kind of the background for Luther's childhood.

但与此相对，人们也有一种感觉，认为未来是光明的，世界正在重生，或者说，一场文艺复兴正在到来。

But against that, there is also this sense that the future is bright, that the world is being reborn, if you want, that there is a renaissance.

好的。

Okay.

因为路德将从艾森纳赫前往爱尔福特上大学，那是图林根的首府。

Because Luther will go on from Eisenach to go to university in Erfurt, which is the capital of Thuringia.

这是德国最古老的大学。

It's the oldest university in Germany.

尽管他看起来是个普通的大学生，成绩平平，只勉强完成了一半的学业。

And although he seems to be quite an average student of his his marks are to be gauged, he only kind of finishes about halfway.

但他将在1505年获得文学硕士学位。

But he will graduate in fifteen o five as a master of arts.

他后来的职业生涯表明，他实际上是一位杰出的拉丁语和希腊语学者。

And the rest of his career will show that actually he is a brilliant scholar of Latin and particularly Greek.

因此，他首次直接从希腊语将《圣经》翻译成德语。

So he will translate the Bible directly from Greek into German for the first time.

从这个意义上说，路德不仅是这种末世论环境的产物，也是同时期兴起的人文主义文艺复兴的产物。

And it is in that sense that Luther, as well as being a product of this kind of apocalyptic environment, is also a product of the kind of humanist renaissance, which is very much happening at the same time.

所以对于不了解的人来说，这显然不是今天那种新教背景下‘无神的人文主义’含义，比如举办一个人文主义婚礼。

So this for people who don't know, this is obviously not humanism in your kind of Protestantism without God sense of today, like having a humanist wedding ceremony.

不。

No.

人文主义关注古典遗产，也涉及对书籍、文字之类事物的着迷，我想是这样的。

So humanism is about the classical heritage, and it's about a fascination, I guess, with books and words and stuff like that.

是吗？

Is it?

这样说公平吗？

Is that fair?

是的。

Yeah.

并且细致地研读文本。

And looking at texts kind of very closely.

对。

Right.

例如，在整个中世纪，《圣经》的译本——武加大译本——一直是拉丁文的。

So for instance, throughout the middle ages, the translation of the bible, the Vulgate had been in Latin.

嗯。

Mhmm.

但人文主义学者们开始转向希腊文，甚至希伯来文来研究《旧约》。

But humanist scholars are kind of going to the Greek and indeed the Hebrew for the Old Testament.

他们研究的是原始文本和资料。

They're looking at the original texts and sources.

这是一项你都知道路德一定会支持的事业。

And this is a project that, you know, Luther will definitely buy into.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，这也对路德产生了一定影响。

So this also is a kind of an influence on him.

但当他1505年毕业时，看起来这并不是他的未来。

But when he graduates in fifteen o five, it would look as though this isn't his future.

他并不会专注于圣经研究，因为你知道，他打算成为一名律师。

He's not going to be focusing, say, on biblical scholarship because, you know, he's gonna become a lawyer.

这就是一切的要点。

This is what it's all about.

所以，在他毕业时，是的。

So at this point, when he graduates Yeah.

当时他身上没有任何迹象表明，他将来会引发一场巨变。

There is nothing really about him to suggest the detonation that he's going to end up setting off.

是的。

Yes.

汤姆，我们先休息一下，广告后继续讲述马丁·路德。

Tom, let's just take a break, and we'll be back after the break for more Martin Luther.

欢迎回到《历史其余部分》。

Welcome back to The Rest is History.

汤姆，马丁·路德。

Tom, Martin Luther.

对。

Yeah.

他是个聪明的孩子。

He's a bright kid.

对吧？

Right?

因为他如果不是这样，就不会上大学，也不会做这么多事。

Because he wouldn't go to university if he wasn't, and he wouldn't be doing all this.

他是个聪明的人，但我们此时对他性格了解多少呢？

He's a bright person, but do we know anything about his personality at this point?

所以，对于那些认为路德有点枯燥的人，他绝对不是这样。

So is he for people who think Luther is a bit dry, he's absolutely not.

他非常爱争论，脾气暴躁。

He's very disputatious, hot tempered.

他痴迷于身体。

He's obsessed with the body.

冲动。

Impulsive.

是的。

Yeah.

他痴迷于性，还有所有这些方面。

He's obsessed with sexuality, all these kinds of things.

但实际上，你说他痴迷于性。

Well, actually, you say he's obsessed with sexuality.

我不确定他真的痴迷于性。

I'm not sure he is obsessed with sexuality, actually.

那并不是让他着迷的事情之一。

That's one of the things that doesn't obsess him.

但他确实有很多其他的执念。

But he does have lots of other obsessions.

你说得对。

You're right.

我想是关于排泄物的执念吧。

Scatological obsessions, I guess.

当然，粪便方面的执念。

Certainly, scatological obsession.

我们会谈到这些的。

We'll come to them.

不。

No.

我认为目前并没有什么特别之处能让他显得与众不同。

I don't think there's anything particularly at this point that would mark him out as as anything exceptional.

好的。

Okay.

而且，再次强调，更令人难以置信的是，我认为如果你在像英国这样文化上属于新教的国家长大，

And, again, what makes it all the more improbable is that I think that there is a sense, particularly if you grow up, I think, in a kind of culturally Protestant country like Britain.

你会觉得只要等像路德这样的人出现，去戳一下那棵腐朽的橡树，一切就会自行崩塌，是的。

You assume that it's just waiting for someone like Luther to come along and poke at the rotten oak Yeah.

中世纪教会的那棵腐朽橡树，一切就会自行崩塌。

Of the medieval church, and it will all just collapse.

胖修士、腐败，你知道的，人们大摆宴席，而农民却在挨饿，是的。

Fat monks, corruption, you know, people having feasts while the peasants are starving Yeah.

假圣物。

Fake relics.

所以我不太想说，但在我生命最初的三十年里，我差不多就是这么想的。

So I hate to tell you, but I think for about the first thirty years of my life, that's pretty much what I thought.

我的意思是，我内心深处仍然觉得天主教会的故事就是这样的，但你现在要告诉我，这完全不对。

I mean, I kind of still deep down think was the story with the Catholic church, but you are now gonna tell me that's not right at all.

嗯，我认为这种假设已经深深嵌入了‘宗教改革’这个带有大写R的短语本身。

Well, so I think that assumption is hardwired into the very phrase, the reformation with a capital r.

因为，当然，这是一种非常非常新教的视角。

Because, of course, that's a very, very Protestant perspective.

事实上，直到十九世纪末，只有新教徒才会使用这个词。

And in fact, right the way up until the end of the nineteenth century, it's only Protestants who ever use it.

因为我认为天主教徒会指出，‘改革’这个词源自拉丁语‘reformatio’，意思是重塑，实际上它并不专属于新教。

Because I think Catholics would point out that reformation, which comes from the Latin word reformatio, remaking, is actually it's not specific to Protestantism.

这是在整个教会历史中持续存在的现象。

It is something that has been continuous throughout the entire history of the church.

事实上，新教改革所推翻的中世纪教会本身正是某种改革（reformatio）的产物，它本身就是一种革命性的机构。

And the truth is that the medieval church that the Protestant Reformation overthrows is itself the product of a reformatio, is itself a kind of revolutionary Yeah.

机构。

Institution.

因为第一次改革——这一点对理解路德的立场至关重要——并不是发生在16世纪，而是发生在11世纪。

Because the first reformation and this is important background to understand what Luther is about because the first reformation happens not in the sixteenth century, but in the eleventh century.

这很重要，因为第二次改革是对它的回应，但同时也是它的延续。

And it matters because the second reformation is you know, it's a reaction to it, but it's also bread of it.

嗯。

Mhmm.

所以我认为我们应该描绘一下这次改革，因为这正是路德所要回应的对象。

So I think we should just give a portrait of this reformation because it is what Luther is going to be reacting against.

因此，这个具有革命性的机构——中世纪教会——其关键特征在于，它以一种前所未有的方式将世界划分为两个部分。

So the key features of this revolutionary institution that is the medieval church, it divides the world into two in a way that had never happened before in any kind of culture in the world.

你有一个循环的维度，即尘世凡俗的维度，这为我们带来了‘世俗’这个词。

You have a dimension of the cyclum, which is the kind of the earthly mortal dimension and will give us the word secular.

然后你有教会的维度，它是光辉而纯净的，构成了拉丁语中连接天堂的‘religio’。

And then you have the dimension of the church, which is radiant and pure and constitutes the link or the religio in Latin to heaven.

因此，这里就有了后来至今仍存在的关键分界线，即世俗与宗教之间的分界。

So there you have kind of what will become the key dividing line in which we still have to this day between the secular and the religious.

被称为‘religiosi’的神职人员，这些人守护着religio的维度，即连接人类与天堂的纽带。

And the clergy who are called the religiosi, these are the people who guard the dimension of the religio, the bond joining humans to heaven.

所以这些，恕我直言，是职业基督徒，这在世界上任何地方都相当罕见，因为有一群人占人口的10%左右，专门从事信仰生活。

So these are, dare I say, professional Christians, which is quite unusual anywhere in the world to have a class who take up, in some places, a 10% of the population.

他们的工作就是做基督徒。

Their job is just to be Christians.

是的。

Yes.

他们以贞洁为标志，这一点也非常独特，实际上直到十一世纪才被引入。

And they are marked by chastity, which again is very distinctive and which really only is introduced in the eleventh century.

以及使用拉丁语，这再次表明他们属于一个普世且永恒的教会。

And by the use of Latin, which is again a kind of marker of the fact that they belong to a universal timeless church.

他们有着非常复杂的等级制度，显然教皇位居顶端。

They have a very complex hierarchy, obviously with the Pope at the head of it.

在他之下，是各种不同的神职人员。

And beneath him, are all kinds of different clergy.

因此，有被称为世俗神职人员的群体，他们活跃在世俗维度中，与平信徒一起工作。

So there are what are called secular clergy, clergy who are operating out in the dimension of the cyclum with the laity.

这些就是你们所说的修士和修道院院长。

These are that your friars and monarchs.

这些是总主教、主教，对吧。

So these are the archbishops, the bishops Right.

一直往下到堂区神父。

Right the way down to the parish priests.

修士、修道士、修女，这些被称为规诫神职人员。

The friars, the monks, the nuns, these are called regular clergy.

所以这些人走的是通往天堂的狭窄但最稳妥的道路。

So these are people who are taking the kind of the narrow path to heaven, but the surest path to heaven.

他们某种程度上在为广大的基督教民众积累福祉。

And they in a way are kind of storing up kind of benefits for the vast mass of the Christian people.

因为像所有革命性机构一样，教会的合法性来自于向人们承诺更好的生活。

Because like all revolutionary institutions, the church gets its validity from offering people the promise of a better life.

所以在现世中存在着正义，这种正义是通过一套源自教父、教会会议和教皇法令的完整法律体系提供的。

So you have justice on this world in the mortal world, And this justice is provided for people as a result of a kind of entire framework of law that derives from the church fathers, from church councils, from decrees of the popes.

这些法律统称为教规。

And these are collectively known as canons.

因此，教会法的体系被称为教规法，它被视为上帝正义的体现。

So the framework of church law is called the canon law, and this is seen as expressive of God's justice.

在教规法、教会自身的等级制度及其实践和机构之间，始终存在一种张力，对吧？

And there's always a tension, isn't there, between that, the canon law, and the separate hierarchy that the church has and its own practices, its institutions, and all that stuff Yeah.

这种张力也存在于教会与地方君主之间，比如亨利二世、亨利八世，或者其他任何认为自己特权受到侵犯的国王，你知道的。

There's always a tension between that and, like, the local king, Henry the second, Henry the eighth, whoever, who thinks they're kind of invading my privileges and you know?

这并不是从亨利八世想要一个儿子开始的。

That doesn't start with Henry the eighth wanting a son.

不是。

No.

不是。

No.

确实不是。

It doesn't.

这已经存在了几个世纪。

That's been there for centuries.

教会法从12世纪开始构建，到16世纪路德时代，已经形成了庞大的体系。

Canon law begins to be constructed in the twelfth century and by the sixteenth century, by by the time of Luther, it's this vast edifice.

教会所主导的精神经济体系也是如此。

As also is the edifice of the spiritual economy that the church is presiding over.

因为归根结底，它所承诺的是天堂和救赎。

Because of course, what it ultimately is promising is the promise of heaven, of salvation.

但阻止你进入天堂的是罪。

But what will prevent you from getting to heaven is sin.

而如果你不想下地狱，就必须偿还这些罪债。

And sin, you know, if you're not going to go to hell, you have to pay it down.

你必须清除它们。

You have to get rid of it.

这就引出了赎罪券的概念。

And this is where indulgences come in.

赎罪券可以彻底洗净你的罪。

So indulgences, they can wipe your sin completely clean.

但是，汤姆，你不会马上下地狱，对吧？

But, Tom, you're not going to hell straight away, are you?

所以，如果你这一生毫无罪过——这几乎不可能，就连圣人也是如此。

Well, so effectively, if you were sinless in this life, which is almost impossible, so even saints Yeah.

你可能会直接升入天堂。

You might go straight to heaven.

但绝大多数人必须在一处称为炼狱的地方偿还他们罪过的债务。

But the vast mass of people are going to have to to work off their debt of sin in a place called purgatory.

所以那就像一个等候室。

So that's like a waiting room.

是这样吗？

Is that right?

你并不是

You're not

这不是地狱。

it's not hell.

一个着火的等候室。

A waiting room with fire.

所以它就像一个较轻的地狱？

So it's like a lesser hell?

是的。

Yes.

这就像地狱，但有

It's like hell with a

时间限制。

time limit.

所以你呢，你知道的，是个十恶不赦的人。

So you've been, you know, a terrible man.

你是希姆莱。

You're Himmler.

你会下地狱。

You're going to hell.

但你我只是普通的罪人，像你我这样。

You're just a common or guardian offender like you and I.

我们都是普通的有罪之人。

You know, we're ordinary sinful people.

我们可能会在炼狱里待上一千年。

We might go to purgatory for a thousand years.

你知道吧？

You know?

谁知道呢？

Who knows?

我认为在你的情况中，多米尼克，时间会稍微长一点。

I think in your case, Dominic, it's slightly longer.

谢谢。

Thanks.

你可以忍受一下海姆勒的情况。

You can bear with me with Himmler.

但你可以慢慢减轻罪责。

But you could work this down.

是的。

Yeah.

所以你可以向圣人和圣母祈祷，她们会向上帝代为求情。

So you could make prayers to the saints and the Virgin who will intervene with God.

是的。

Yeah.

或者你可以，你知道的，做慈善捐赠，行善事。

Or you could, you know, charitable donations, good works.

你可以去朝圣，最重要的是，还有弥撒。

You could go on a pilgrimage And above all, there are there are masses.

弥撒是纪念基督在十字架上的牺牲，通过面包和葡萄酒使它变得生动而真实。

And the mass, it's the celebration of the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, and it's made vivid and real in the bread and wine.

基督真正地临在于此。

Christ is literally present there.

这为基督徒提供了一种体验共同身份、与信仰的奥秘相通的方式。

And this is a way for the Christian people to kind of experience a sense of common identity and commune with the mystery of their faith.

这就是为什么教堂被视为神圣场所的原因。

So this is why churches are set aside as sacred places.

所以你有图像。

So you have images.

你有圣像。

You have icons.

你有香。

You have incense.

你有各种我敢肯定会激起你新教疑虑的东西。

You have all the kind of stuff that I'm sure would rouse your protestant suspicions.

我其实挺喜欢圣像的。

I actually like icon stuff.

我爱圣像。

I love an icon.

很好。

Good.

很好。

Good.

我非常喜欢东正教会。

I love the kind of the Orthodox church.

我是东正教会的忠实粉丝。

Big fan of the Orthodox Church.

但弥撒在灵性经济中的作用是，人们相信它们能够超越时空，是的。

But the role that masses play in the spiritual economy is that they are kind of believed to transcend place and time Yeah.

并将所有基督徒与基督在十字架上的牺牲联系起来。

And to link all Christians to, you know, the sacrifice of Christ on the cross.

因此，它们在消除炼狱中亡者罪孽方面具有惊人的效力。

And therefore, they have an incredible efficacy in burning away the sins of the dead in purgatory.

所以到了十五世纪，富人支付修士或其他人替亡者举行弥撒的做法，已成为基督教虔诚的重要组成部分。

And so by the fifteenth century, the idea of wealthy people paying monks or whoever to perform masses for the dead has become a crucial part of Christian piety.

所以，汤姆，关于弥撒我有两点要说。

So Tom, two points about masses.

首先，以一种奇怪的方式，我真没想到我会在这样一个话题上对你这么说。

So one is, in a weird way, actually, never thought I'd say this to you on this of all subjects.

我认为你几乎稍微低估了弥撒的重要性，字面意义上的重大意义。

I think you're almost slightly underselling what a massive deal, literally a massive deal, the mass is.

因为大多数人一年只会去领一次圣餐。

Because most people would only go and take communion once a year.

是这样吗？

Is that right?

他们会得到是的。

And they would get the Yeah.

面包，但没有酒。

Bread, but not the wine.

葡萄酒是留给神父的。

The wine is reserved for the priest.

但这是一个非同寻常的时刻

But this is a a moment of extraordinary

在你生命中具有强大力量。

power in your life.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

这简直就像你正在接近一个核反应堆的核心一样。

It's almost as though you were approaching the heart of a nuclear reactor or something.

圣体就是驱动一切的反应堆。

The mass is the reactor that is powering everything.

对。

Right.

它如此强大，只有神职人员才能接近它。

And it's so potent that only priests can approach it.

即使如此，也必须极其谨慎。

And even then, only with extreme care.

是的。

Yeah.

而对于平信徒来说，你知道，接近它是太危险了。

And for the laity, you know, it's too dangerous to approach.

对。

Right.

就像《夺宝奇兵》里他们打开约柜的盖子，所有东西都飞出来的那个场景。

It's the bit the raiders of the lost ark when they take the lid off the ark of the covenant and all the stuff is flying out.

是的。

Yes.

那就是你生命中的那个时刻，对吧？我的意思是，上帝真的就在那里。

That's the moment in your life, isn't it, where I mean, God is literally there.

是的。

Yeah.

真的就在那里。

Literally there.

真的在面包和葡萄酒中。

Literally in the bread and wine.

是的。

Yes.

面包和葡萄酒就是身体和血。

The the bread and the wine are the body and blood.

我的意思是，上帝确实临在。

I mean, God is literally present.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

但我想说的另一件事是，为死者举行弥撒以帮助他们脱离炼狱的做法。

But, also, the other thing I was going to say, that thing about saying masses for the dead to get you out of purgatory.

但我说得没错吧，这种产业——因为它确实是一种产业——在德国比在基督教世界的其他任何地方都更发达。

But am I not right in saying that that industry, because it is an industry, is more developed in Germany than in any other part of Christendom.

所以像路德这样成长起来的人，会发现这种做法在他眼中显得异常庞大，而如果他生活在意大利、西班牙或弥撒产业没那么发达的地方，就不会有这种感觉。

So somebody like Luther growing up, it looms, again, massively large in a way that it wouldn't if he was in Italy or Spain or somewhere where the mass industry is not quite as developed.

这就解释了为什么他最终会反抗它，以及为什么它在德国、瑞士、波罗的海和斯堪的纳维亚等地变得如此极具争议。

So that explains why he ends up kicking against it and why it becomes so incredibly controversial in Germany and Switzerland and the kind of Baltic and Scandinavia and so on.

但同样，要迈出反抗这一步也需要一些时间。

But, again, I mean, it takes some time to take the dramatic step of kicking against it.

因为我认为，一开始的时候，他还是个学生或者是个孩子。

Because I think to begin with that, you know, he's a schoolboy or he's a student.

是的。

Mhmm.

他并没有真正去思考这个问题。

He's not really thinking about it.

因为对于麦卡洛克所说的那些非职业基督徒来说，这并不是一种你必须明确相信或不相信的事情，因为这是路德将欧洲推向现代性进程的一部分。

Because for most people who are not kind of professional Christians in McCulloch's formulation, this is it's not something you necessarily believe in in the way that we believe or don't believe in things because this is part of the course of modernity that Luther is going to set Europe on.

对。

Right.

所以我认为，对大多数人来说，这就像他们呼吸的空气一样自然。

So I think for most people, it's just kind of part of the air that they breathe in.

我认为，这是前改革时期文化中最难让我们理解的方面之一。

And I think it's one of the aspects of the pre reformation culture that is hardest for us to get our heads around.

因为我认为，改革如何改变了我们对信仰的关系，是它之所以具有革命性的一个最深刻的方面。

Because I think that the way that the Reformation changes our relationship to belief is one of the profoundest aspects of what makes it revolutionary.

对我们来说，你相信什么，或者不相信什么？

So for us, what do you believe in or what don't you believe in?

这是我们身份的一个关键标志，但我认为这在15世纪的拉丁基督教世界中是非常不同的。

It's a crucial marker of our identity, But it's really, I think, different, say, in fifteenth century Latin Christendom.

所以，当基督徒称犹太人或穆斯林为不信者时，他们并不是在定义犹太人或穆斯林的信仰是错的。

So say when Christians call Jews or Muslims unbelievers, they're not really defining them in terms of the fact that what Jews or Muslims believe is wrong.

而只是因为他们不相信拉丁欧洲人人都视为理所当然的那些东西。

It's just that they don't they don't believe in the stuff that everyone in Latin Europe is taking for granted.

所以，汤姆，我非常喜欢你笔记中的这一部分，因为真的，有时候我对你们很苛刻，但我觉得这里特别有意思，就像很多人一样，我经常想，

So, Tom, I loved this section in your notes because it really I mean, sometimes I'm very hard of on you and the rest is history, but I think here, I just thought, wow, this is so interesting because like many people, you know, I'd I'd often thought,

人们真的相信这些吗？

did people really believe this?

他们真的相信身体

Did they really believe that the body

和血液会变成那些东西吗？

and blood turned into all that stuff?

你知道的，圣物、赎罪券。

You know, relics, indulgences.

他们怎么能相信这些呢？

How could they believe it?

但我觉得你在这里指出的是，某种程度上，人们根本不会去思考它。

But I think what you're bringing out here is that in a way, don't really think about it.

对。

No.

为什么要去想呢？

Because why would you?

是的。

Yeah.

就像你我知道，例如，人类需要氧气才能生存，或者宇宙起源于大爆炸。

It's like you and I know, for example, that, you know, human beings need oxygen to survive or that the universe was born in the big bang.

但我们之所以知道这些，只是因为周围所有人都这么认为。

But we only know that because everyone we know thinks it.

我们被这样告知，于是便信以为真。

We've been told it, and we take it on trust.

我们对此完全视作理所当然。

And we just take it completely for granted.

他们对待魔鬼、赎罪券、炼狱，所有这些东西，都是这样想的。

And that's how they thought about the devil, indulgences, purgatory, all that stuff.

他们不会在深夜里坐下来争论这些是否真实，不会。

They didn't sit up at late at night debating whether or not it was true No.

因为对他们来说，这显然是真的。

Because it obviously was true to them.

我认为一个非常有趣的类比是，比如在新冠封锁期间人们对流行病学的态度——大多数人接受流行病学家告诉他们的内容，因为为什么不呢？

Well, I think a kind of a really fascinating parallel would be with, say, people's attitudes to epidemiology during the COVID lockdowns, that most people accepted what they were told by the epidemiologists because why wouldn't they?

是流行病学家才懂这些。

It's the epidemiologists who know.

所以神学家就像是中世纪的流行病学家。

And so the theologians are the kind of the medieval equivalent of epidemiologists.

你可能会想，他们是怎么知道的呢？

And you may wonder, well, you know, how do they know?

他们是如何获得这种确定性的？

How do they get their certainty?

他们之所以知道，是因为他们拥有以经文形式呈现的启示，同时也拥有大学里的知识分子所称的科学。

And they get it because they have revelation in the form of scripture, But also they have what is called by intellectuals in the universities, so science.

但这并不是我们意义上的科学。

But it's not science in our sense.

它是通过推理和严谨研究从启示中推导出来的知识。

It's the knowledge that can be deduced from revelation via kind of deduction, via rigorous study.

因此，炼狱就是这样被推导出来的。

And so so this is how purgatory comes to be deduced.

炼狱并没有在圣经中被明确提及，但你可以从圣经中得出的各种结论中推断出它。

Purgatory is not mentioned in scripture, but you can deduce it from kind of various conclusions that can be drawn from scripture.

因此，这种信仰体系的整个结构，就像一座宏伟的大教堂，你不必走进大教堂就能感受到它的存在。

And so the whole edifice of, you know, this this kind of framework of belief is like a kind of enormous cathedral that you don't have to go into the cathedral to be aware of it.

它正悄然逼近你。

It is looming up over you.

你知道，因为他们是专家。

You know because they're the experts.

没错。

Exactly.

只有疯子才会。

And only a madman.

你知道，在2024年，如果有人说我根本不相信地球是圆的。

You know, in 2024, somebody who said, well, I don't believe the world is round, actually.

你会觉得，哦，这纯粹是为了标新立异。

You know, you would be like, oh, it's just eccentric for the sake of it.

违背大家公认的事实，有什么意义呢？

What's the point in going against what everybody knows to be true?

那我们来探讨一下这个新冠疫情的类比吧。

Well, let's pursue that COVID analogy.

当然，在新冠疫情期间，有很多怀疑者。

Of course, during COVID, there are skeptics.

是的。

Mhmm.

我的意思是，有些人会反对医学权威告诉他们的内容。

I mean, there are people who kick back against what the medical establishment are telling them.

同样地，在中世纪，当然也有人反对教会权威告诉他们的内容。

And so likewise in the middle ages, of course you do have people who are kicking back against what the church authorities are telling them.

而这些人当然被称为异端。

And these are people who of course are called heretics.

如果他们顽固不化，拒绝悔改，就会被烧死。

And if they're inveterate as heretics and they refuse to recant, then they're burnt.

在十五世纪，人们对这种传统有着非常鲜明的意识。

And in the fifteenth century, there is quite a vivid consciousness of this tradition.

因为历史上有过很多异端，对吧？

Because there have been lots of heretics, haven't there?

在法国有一位名叫彼得·瓦尔多的人，非常著名，汤姆，我心中敬爱的前任贝利亚主人，约翰·威克里夫。

There's been a guy called Peter Valdo in France, very famously Tom, dear to my heart, the former master of Belial, John Wycliffe.

是的。

Yes.

在1449年，佛罗伦萨有一位名叫萨沃纳罗拉的人，他逐渐成为这座城市的领袖。

And in this forty ninth, there's a guy called Savonarola in Florence who's a sort of becomes the leader of the city.

但你要谈论的这个人，才是路德真正的先驱。

But the guy you're gonna be talking about is the real precursor to Luther.

那就是扬·胡斯。

That's Jan Hus.

对吧？

Right?

扬·胡斯来自布拉格。

So Jan Hus, he is from Prague.

他在那里的大学里是一位学者，极具魅力，智慧超群，人格高尚，深受威克里夫的影响。

He's a scholar there at the university, immensely charismatic, intellectually brilliant, huge personal integrity, very influenced by Wycliffe.

是的

Mhmm.

威克里夫质疑教皇的权威，质疑教会教义的方方面面。

And Wycliffe is questioning the authority of the papacy, questioning all kinds of aspects of church teaching.

胡斯深受他的影响。

Huss is influenced by him.

因此，胡斯以威克里夫为榜样，教导说《圣经》是最高权威，教会的传统相比《圣经》的神圣性几乎无关紧要。

And so Huss, Wycliffe's example, is teaching that the Bible is the ultimate source of authority and that the traditions of the church are kind of irrelevant compared to the sanctity of the Bible.

对。

Right.

神职人员如此腐败，以至于教会的整体结构可能都已经腐化了。

That the clergy are are so corrupt that maybe the entire fabric of the church is corrupt.

他同样蔑视教皇声称自己拥有上帝赋予的至高地位的说法。

And again, he is scorning the claim of the papacy to have a primacy that's been given by God.

胡斯还有另外两件事值得注意。

And there are two other things that are interesting about Huss.

其中一个问题是，他在弥撒中被剥夺了喝葡萄酒的权利。

So one of them is that he says, you are being denied the wine at mass.

你们应该同时拥有面包和葡萄酒。

You should have both bread and wine.

基本上，神父们把所有的葡萄酒都独占了。

And, basically, the priests are hogging all the wine for themselves.

每个人都应该有权享用。

That everyone should have it.

是的。

Yeah.

而且你知道，这可不是一小杯葡萄酒那么简单。

And because this is you know, it's not just a little glass of wine.

没错。

No.

这是基督的血，分享着神圣的力量

This is the blood of Christ sharing in the radiant power

上帝的。

of God.

对。

Right.

第二点是，赫斯特身上有一种语言民族主义，不是吗？

And the second thing is that there's a linguistic nationalism to Hearst, isn't there?

所以他希望很多东西都用捷克语，就像威克里夫用英语一样，这将在后来的宗教改革中发挥作用。

So he wants lots of stuff to be in the Czech language, a bit like Wycliffe with the English language, and that that will play a part in the later reformation.

嗯，这更复杂一些，因为威克里夫确实把《圣经》翻译成了英语。

Well, that's more complicated because actually so Wycliffe translates the Bible into English.

是的。

Yeah.

但《圣经》被谴责并不是因为被翻译成了英语，而是因为它与威克里夫及其异端追随者联系在一起。

But it's condemned not because he's translated it into English, but because it's associated with him and his heretical followers.

因此，在整个十五世纪，教会当局开始将异端与方言版本的《圣经》联系起来。

So it's over the course of the fifteenth century that an association on the part of the church authorities is starting to develop with heresy and with the Bible in vernacular languages.

所以不是用拉丁文。

So not in Latin.

是的。

Yeah.

但这一点在这个时候还没有完全确立。

But it's not been absolutely solidified at this point.

但已经有一些苗头了，对吧？

But there's a hint of it, right?

对。

Yeah.

确实有一些苗头。

There is a hint.

它真正成为定势是在十六世纪，作为对宗教改革的回应。

It really only gets kind of bedded down in the sixteenth century as a reaction to the reformation.

好的。

Okay.

但没错，这也是其中一部分。

But yeah, that is a part of it as well.

所以胡斯被视为麻烦制造者。

So Hus is seen as a troublemaker.

他于1414年被邀请参加在瑞士康斯坦茨市举行的教会会议。

He gets invited to a church council in 1414 that is being held in the Swiss city of Constance.

帝国当局——也就是后来成为皇帝的那个人——给了他安全通行证。

And he is given a safe conduct there by the imperial authorities, by the guy who will go on to become the emperor.

因此，他于1414年11月抵达那里。

And so he arrives there in November 1414.

三周后，他被逮捕了。

Three weeks later, he is arrested.

他接受了审判。

He's put on trial.

他被要求悔改。

He's told to recant.

他没有。

He doesn't.

他被烧死在火刑柱上，骨灰被撒入莱茵河。

He's burnt at the stake, and his ashes are dumped in the Rhine.

哦，是噤声。

Oh, it's hush.

所以，我的意思是，这是一个令人不寒而栗的例子，说明如果你过分挑战教会，会发生什么。

So that I mean, that's a kind of a chilling example of what can happen if you you push the church too far.

对。

Right.

但我认为重要的是要强调，并非所有指出教会腐败、需要改革或可以改进的人，都会被视作异端。

But I think it is important to emphasise that not everyone who says that the church is corrupt or that it needs reform or that improvements can be made is seen as a heretic.

这是中世纪教会传统的一部分。

This is something that is part of the fabric of the traditions of the medieval church.

所以，你可能会走得太远，最终被烧死。

So you can go too far and end up burnt.

但同样，你也可以提出这些观点，而完全不脱离教会的框架。

But equally, you can make these arguments and absolutely stay within the fabric of the church.

这难道不正反映出教会并非静止不变，基督教也不是一成不变的，总是在不断争论，比如教皇该不该拥有权力，还是应该由神职人员议会来决定？

And doesn't that reflect the fact that the church is not static, that Christianity is not a fixed thing, and that there are always arguments going on, like, should the pope have power or should it be councils of clergymen?

教会与国家之间的确切关系究竟是怎样的呢？

What is the exact relationship between church and state as it were?

所以教皇总是和世俗统治者发生冲突，对吧？

So the pope's always falling out with secular rulers, isn't he?

是的。

Yeah.

这始终在不断协商中。

This is constantly being negotiated.

所以让我们回到我们一开始讨论的问题。

So just to go back to the thing that we began this with.

所以是赎罪券。

So indulgences.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这正是乔叟笔下的赎罪券贩子所贩卖的东西。

I mean, this is what Chaucer's pardoner is selling.

他是我们在上一集中讨论过的《坎特伯雷故事集》中最令人厌恶的角色。

The most loathsome figure in the Canterbury Tales we talked about in our episode.

我的意思是，他真的很糟糕。

I mean, he's he's terrible.

但乔叟并没有被斥为异端。

But Chaucer is not condemned as a heretic.

他最终被安葬在威斯敏斯特教堂。

He ends up buried in Westminster Abbey.

你可以批评这种精神经济体系的某些方面，如果你想这么称呼它的话。

You can criticize aspects of this spiritual economy, if you wanna call it that.

没错。

Right.

并且成为一个完全虔诚的天主教基督徒。

And be a completely devout Catholic Christian.

所以我认为，正是在这个意义上，宗教改革并非不可避免——你可以批评教会，但不必彻底摧毁整个体系。

So I think it's in that sense that there is nothing inevitable about the reformation, that you can criticize the church, but you don't have to kind of pull the whole fabric down.

因此，问题来了：为什么它偏偏在1517年爆发了？

And so, again, the question is, why does it end up kicking off in 1517?

就是我们这集开头提到的那些赎罪券风波。

This kind of, you know, indulgences bust up that we began this episode with.

同样地，为什么这场变革偏偏由我们刚刚提到的那个人引发？

And equally, why does it end up kicking off with this guy who we left?

你知道，他刚从大学毕业。

You know, he's just graduated from university.

他父亲希望他去当律师。

His father wants him to go and be a lawyer.

他身上没有任何迹象表明，他会引发这场深刻改变拉丁欧洲基督徒自我认知的全球性变革。

There's nothing about him that suggests he's gonna precipitate this globally significant transformation in the way that Christians in Latin Europe think about themselves.

你知道，到底发生了什么？

You know, what is it that happens?

好的。

Alright.

好吧，汤姆，原本这部分只是节目的前十分钟左右，但现在却成了整期节目，这真是太好了，因为我觉得这个话题非常丰富有趣。

Well, Tom, this was meant to be like the first ten minutes or so of of the episode, but it's become the whole episode, which is great because I find it such a rich and interesting subject.

所以，对于那些属于我们自己小教派——‘余下皆历史’俱乐部的成员来说，你们当然现在就可以收听其余的节目，了解究竟是什么让路德反对教会，以及那些疯狂发生的事情。

So for those of you who are members of our very own little sect, the rest is history club, you can, of course, hear the rest of the episodes right now so you can find out what turned Luther against the church, all the crazy stuff that happened.

接下来还有很多惊心动魄的情节，你们可以立即深入探索。

There's lots of sort of blood and thunder to come, so you can dig into that right away.

对于那些仍然忠于传统方式、每期节目发布时才收听的听众，这也很棒。

For those of you who are still loyal to the old ways of listening to an episode every you know, when it comes out, That's great.

你知道，我们也喜欢你们。

You know, we like you too.

我们并不谴责你们。

We don't condemn you.

是的

Yeah.

你得等到正式发布。

You'll have to wait until the official release.

无论如何，下次我们会带来更多关于马丁·路德的精彩内容。

Either way, we'll be back with more Martin Luther excitement next time.

汤姆，非常感谢你，再见。

Tom, thank you very much, and goodbye.

再见。

Bye bye.