434. 马丁·路德：革命开始（第二部分）

所以建立这所大学，我想就像是二十世纪初美国中西部的一个小镇希望通过创办一所大学来提升自己的知名度，类似这样的事情。

And so building the university, it's I suppose it's kind of like, I don't know, a Midwest town in the early twentieth century wanting to put itself on the map by founding a university, that kind of thing.

是的。

Yeah.

或者像是波斯湾地区的一个首都建造一座庞大的艺术画廊之类的东西。

Or I don't know, a capital in The Gulf building a massive art gallery or something like that.

是的。

Yeah.

这实际上是在发展文化资本。

It's kind of developing cultural capital.

但除了建立大学之外，弗雷德里克让维滕贝格声名鹊起的另一种方式是他大量收藏圣物。

But the other way in which Frederick puts Wittenberg on the map as well as building a university is that he's a massive collector of relics.

另一种通往天堂的方式就是去参观圣物收藏，表达敬意，从而减少在炼狱中所受的惩罚。

So this is another way that you can get to heaven is that you can go and pay your respects to a collection of relics and get time knocked off, purgatory.

因此，弗雷德里克拥有极其庞大的圣物收藏。

So Frederick has an enormous collection.

所以他拥有19,013块圣人遗骨碎片。

So he has 19,013 fragments of saint's bones.

是的。

Yeah.

他拥有一根基督在十字架上所戴荆棘冠冕上的刺。

He has a thorn from the crown of thorns that Christ wears on the cross.

太疯狂了。

Bonkers.

他有一根摩西所见燃烧荆棘的枝条。

He has a twig from the burning bush seen by Moses.

他拥有婴儿耶稣在马槽里被包裹的襁褓布。

He has the swaddling clothes that the baby Jesus was wrapped up in in the manger.

他有一缕圣母玛利亚的头发。

He has a lock of the virgin's hair.

而我认为最令人印象深刻的是，他拥有希律王军队屠杀伯利恒无辜婴儿中一具完整的尸体。

And I think most impressively of all, he has the entire corpse of one of the innocent babies of Bethlehem massacred by Herod's troops.

当我念出这份清单时，多米尼克看起来越来越像新教徒了。

And Dominic is looking more and more Protestant by the minute as I read that list out.

这使得维滕贝格成为了一个极其重要的朝圣中心，因为如果你去敬拜这些圣物

It makes Wittenberg an enormous focus of pilgrimage because if you go and reverence these relics

那根来自燃烧荆棘的枝条。

The twig from the burning bush.

在教皇特别颁布法令的日子作为朝圣者前往，你可以将你在炼狱中的停留时间减少一百九十万二千二百零二年零二百七十天。

As a pilgrim on days that are specially ordained by papal decree, then you can reduce your stay in purgatory by one million nine hundred and two thousand two hundred and two years and two hundred and seventy days.

这样的优惠，你不会拒绝吧？

You're not gonna turn down that as a bargain, are you?

我的意思是，你不会拒绝的。

I mean, you're not.

而且人们现在依然会去观看他们明明知道是假的东西。

And people do go to look at things that they know are obviously fake right now.

是的。

Yeah.

但我认为他们并不这么想。

But I don't think they do think that.

你不觉得他们这么想吗？

You don't think they do think that?

他们不觉得这是假的。

They don't think it's fake.

因为如果不是这样，你也不会去，对吧

Because otherwise, you wouldn't go, would

你会去的。

you?

是的。

Yeah.

你会去的。

You would.

人们确实会去参观那些古怪的旅游景点。

People do go to see tourist attractions that are wacky.

不。

No.

你不会去的

You're not going

你不会为了一个你根本不相信能带来收益的旅程，跋涉千里、历经艰辛的。

to you're not going to travel miles and miles and miles, very arduous and grueling if you don't believe you're going to benefit from it.

但我的观点是，首先，我不确定这一点。

But my point is, first of all, I'm not sure about that.

其次，我认为人们对远征的机会总是会感到非常兴奋。

And secondly, because I think people the chance of an expedition is always gonna be very exciting to people.

其次，我们刚才在讨论信念的本质。

But secondly so we were talking about the nature of belief.

而且人们常常如此，你知道吗，新教传统背景的人往往会嘲笑这一切，不是吗？

And there's always this people often do you know, people from the Protestant tradition do laugh at all this stuff, don't they?

然后说，什么？

And say, what?

全是些完全的傻瓜，诸如此类的东西。

Complete mugs, all this kind of thing.

但这些在当时可是争论的焦点，不是吗？

But these are the subject of arguments at the time, aren't they?

有很多自认为是正统的（加引号）天主教神学家、作家等等，对此非常生气，说你是在拿严肃的东西开玩笑。

There are a lot of people who regard themselves as orthodox, in inverted commas, Catholic theologians or writers or whatever, who get very cross about this and say you're taking the mickey out of something that is serious.

有些圣物确实是真实的，具有力量，但有些明显是骗局。

That some of these relics are are real and they have power, but some of them are patently frauds.

实际上，人们有时也会拒绝某些圣物，对吧？

And, actually, people will sometimes reject some relics, won't they?

他们会的。

They will.

但再说回去，

But, again, to go back

回到乔叟在《坎特伯雷故事集》中对朝圣者同伴的描绘，那是个令人厌恶的角色，本质上是在欺骗他人、敲诈钱财，让人们去崇敬羊骨碎片，并假装那是圣人的遗骨之类的东西。

to Chaucer's portrayal of the partner in the Canterbury tales, who's a loathsome figure who is basically scamming people, who is fleecing people, extorting money so that they can reverence fragments of sheep bone and pretending that it's the bone of saints or whatever.

是的。

Yeah.

但乔叟谴责他的原因，以及他为何是个令人厌恶的角色，并不是因为圣物本身是欺诈性的。

But the reason that Chaucer is condemning him, the reason he's such a loathsome figure isn't because relics per se are fraudulent.

没错。

Exactly.

而是因为他利用了人们真正的希望之源。

It's that it's exploiting Yeah.

人们真正寄托希望的源泉。

What is a genuine source of hope for people.

所以乔叟并不否认圣物具有这种力量。

So Chaucer doesn't discount that relics have this power.

是的。

Yeah.

但他谴责的是那些利用这一点的人。

But he is condemning people who exploit it.

但是，汤姆，那根来自燃烧荆棘的树枝，我的意思是，我不可能是唯一一个觉得即使在维滕贝格也有大量人会想：喂，一根来自燃烧荆棘的树枝？

But, Tom, the twig from the burning bush, I mean, I cannot be alone in thinking that there must have been an awful lot of people even in Wittenberg who thought, come on, a twig from the burning bush?

我的意思是，这东西是怎么到这儿的？

I mean, how's that got here?

它是怎么被保存了数千年之久的？

Like, how's that been preserved over the thousands of years?

嗯，你之所以这么想，我认为是因为

Well, the fact that you think that, I think, is due to

是我的想象力不够。

Lack of imagination on my part.

本集的英雄。

The hero of this episode.

对。

Right.

好的。

Okay.

对。

Right.

但到这个时候，你知道，他已经去了维滕贝格，并在1512年获得了博士学位，成为大学的圣经教授。

But at this point, you know, he's gone to Wittenberg, and in 1512, he gets his doctorate, and he becomes the professor of the Bible in the university.

对。

Right.

这里有很多机会让他真正成名，因为弗雷德里克想要有名气的教授。

And, you know, there is lots of scope here for him to really make a name for himself because Frederick wants celebrity professors.

所以如果路德能以圣经教授的身份成名，弗雷德里克就会全力支持他。

And so if Luther can make a name for himself as professor of the Bible, then Frederick will really back him.

在本集的第二部分，我们会看到——因为我觉得现在该休息一下了——路德在维滕贝格大学担任圣经教授的表现如何，毕竟他会产生巨大的影响。

And we will see in the second part of this episode, because I think we should take a break at this point, how Luther does as professor of the Bible at Wittenberg University because, well, he's gonna have quite a seismic impact.

所以我们几分钟后再见。

So we will see you in a few minutes.

很好。

Very good.

欢迎回到《历史余韵》节目。

Welcome back to The Rest is History.

现在，马丁·路德在经历了一场雷暴中的非凡体验后，已成为维滕贝格一所新大学的教授，那里收藏着一些非常令人兴奋的圣物，汤姆对此深信不疑。

Now Martin Luther, having gone through this extraordinary experience in a thunderstorm, has become a professor at a new university in Wittenberg, home of some very exciting relics in which Tom believes implicitly.

汤姆，他已经获得了博士学位。

And Tom, he's got his doctorate.

他是维滕贝格的圣经教授。

He's professor of the bible in Wittenberg.

而且，我的意思是，这会引导我们进入关于书籍的问题，我们稍后会谈到。

And, I mean, this will lead us on to the question of books, we'll come

马上就会讲到。

to in a minute.

但圣经教授到底意味着什么？

But what does professor of the bible actually mean?

那么他具体在做什么呢？

So what's he doing?

所以他正在讲授《圣经》中的各种书卷。

So he's lecturing on various books in the bible.

这意味着他正在非常仔细地研读圣经经文。

And so it it means that he is looking very, very closely at scripture.

因此，从1513年到1515年，他教授《诗篇》。

So between fifteen thirteen and fifteen, he is teaching the Psalms.

从1515年到1517年，他教授圣保罗的书信。

Fifteen fifteen to fifteen seventeen, he's teaching the letters of Saint Paul.

这是对关键圣经文本的深入探究。

It's kind of deep dives into key biblical texts.

对。

Right.

但有趣的是，从一开始，路德就将这视为一个机会，去探讨的不是他的前辈们对《圣经》的解读。

But what's interesting about this is that right from the beginning, Luther seems to have seen this as an opportunity to engage not with what his predecessors have said about the Bible.

也就是说，不是各种注释和分析，而是他自己对经文的看法。

So, you know, all the various commentaries and analysis and so on, but what he personally thinks about it.

所以有一种感觉，马丁·路德正在一对一地深入研读这部伟大的圣经典籍。

So there's a sense that he, Martin Luther, is engaging one on one with this great body of scripture.

汤姆，这难道不是一种很有人文主义色彩的做法吗？

And, Tom, is that not that's quite a humanist thing, isn't it?

回归本源。

Get back to the sources.

不必拘泥于传统的重负。

Don't worry about the weight of tradition.

就是回归到原始的东西。

Just get back to the original stuff.

是的。

Yeah.

但即便如此，我是说，即使是人文主义学者，也会有那种学术工具，能让你查阅原始的希腊文之类的。

But even so, I mean, even humanist scholars would have, say, the scholarly apparatus that might enable you to look at the the original Greek or whatever.

但路德特意去找大学印刷商，要求他印刷一种‘赤裸的’文本，没有任何注解、没有任何评论，只有纯粹的文本本身。

But Luther makes a point of going to the university printer and asking him to print a kind of a naked text, one without any glosses, any commentaries at all, just the raw text itself.

这确实很不寻常。

And this is really unusual.

因此，这已经表明路德与《圣经》文本之间的独特关系正在显现。

So it suggests already that something distinctive about Luther's relationship to the body of the Bible is kicking in.

汤姆，这给了我们一个机会，来讨论一个我们至今尚未提及的重大话题，而它实际上正是路德整个这段人生的核心。

And, Tom, that gives us an opportunity to talk about something massive that we haven't talked about at all yet, which actually lies at the very center of Luther's life in this whole period.

那就是印刷术。

And that's obviously printing.

是的。

Yeah.

因为你可以论证，不是吗？如果没有印刷术，宗教改革不会以这种方式发生。

Because you could argue, couldn't you, the reformation would not have happened as it did.

我相信你几乎肯定会认为，如果没有印刷术，宗教改革就不会以这种方式发生。

I'm sure you pretty much would argue that, wouldn't you, that it doesn't happen in the way it

是的。

Yeah.

这绝对是根本性的。

It's absolutely completely fundamental.

所以印刷术的故事非常有趣，因为达蒙·麦克库洛赫在他关于宗教改革的书中指出，直到这一时期的最近阶段，也就是大约1450年左右，人们一直认为所有的伟大智慧和进步都发生在过去。

So the printing story is a really interesting one because Damon McCulloch in his book on the reformation makes the point that up till quite recently in this period, so up to, you know, 1450 or whatever, people had always assumed that all great wisdom and advances had been made in the past.

人类历史的故事被认为是从那时起不断衰败，没有任何事物真正改善、变化或变得更好，除了不断恶化。

And the story of human history was a story of decay since then, and nothing had ever improved or changed or got better other than, you know, it only changed and deteriorating.

但显然，有一种方式让生活变得更好了，那就是信息科技。

But clearly, there is one way in which life has got better, and that's through, you know, information technology.

首先，从13世纪开始，纸张逐渐取代了羊皮纸。

So first of all, they've had paper replacing parchment, which is about the thirteenth century onwards.

然后在1450年，古腾堡印刷了活字版《圣经》。

And then in 1450, Gutenberg's bible, movable type.

蒂姆·麦克库洛赫在他的书中提到，当然，此前早已存在许多对教皇权威或教会正统观念持批判态度的运动。

And Timur McCullough in his book, he says, of course, there had been previous movements very critical of papal authority or kind of church orthodoxy.

我们之前提到过约翰·威克里夫和罗拉德派，但他们没有印刷机。

So we mentioned John Wycliffe and the Lollards, but they didn't have the printing press.

他们无法轻易传播他们的反对意见。

They weren't able to easily disseminate their No.

他们的信息。

Their message.

这里有一个观点，不是吗？

And there is an argument, isn't there?

约翰·加尔文支持伯纳德·科特雷，如果你这么念他的名字的话。

John Calvin's prog for Bernard Cotre, if that's how you pronounce his name.

我假设他是法国人或瑞士人之类的。

I'm assuming he's a Frenchman or Swiss or something.

他说，是圣经数量的增加。

He says it's the increase in Bibles.

是印刷版圣经的增加促成了宗教改革，而不是相反。

It's the increase in printed Bibles that creates the reformation, not the other way around.

你觉得这是真的吗？

Do you think that's true?

我的意思是，如果你看看路德在做什么，他去大学印刷厂订购没有注释的圣经。

I mean, if you look at what Luther is doing, that he is going to the university printer and ordering this Bible without glosses.

我的意思是，这绝对很好地说明了这一点，因为以前他是不可能做到这一点的。

I mean, that absolutely kind of illustrates it because he would not have been able to do that previously.

如果他想要那样，你知道，他得去抄写室，花上好几年时间手抄出来。

If he'd wanted that, you know, he would have had to go to a scriptorium, would have spent, you know, years and years writing out about it.

你知道，这根本不可能做到。

You know, it just wouldn't be possible to do it.

是的。

Yeah.

但现在可以了。

But now it is.

难道不是也有观点认为，印刷术改变了思维方式吗？

And isn't there also an argument that the nature of thinking changes with printing?

同样，在麦卡洛克的书中，他说，如果你是十二世纪或十三世纪的学者，你会安排自己一天的时间做什么。

So again, in McCulloch's book, he says, if you're a scholar in the twelfth century or the thirteenth century, you work out what you do with your time in the day.

你抄写书籍。

You copy out books.

这就是你打发时间的方式。

I that's how you spend your time.

你没有时间去思考它们。

You don't have time to think about them.

对。

Right.

你在一个智慧会衰退的世界里保存着古代的智慧，羊皮纸可能会腐烂，或在火灾中被毁，或发生其他情况。

You are preserving the wisdom of the ancients in a world where it will deteriorate, where the parchment will will rot or become destroyed in a fire or whatever.

所以这非常重要。

So it's really important.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，它正以互联网使文本更易获取的方式变得越来越容易获得。

So it's becoming more accessible in exactly the way that the internet has made texts more accessible.

我认为，这种类比经常被人提及。

And the parallel, I think, is one that has often been made.

事实上，我们在第四或第五集就做过这个类比，将印刷术对宗教改革时期欧洲的影响与互联网对当今世界的影响相提并论。

In fact, we made it, I think, in our fourth or fifth episode we ever did the parallel between the impact of the printing press on reformation Europe and the impact of the internet on today's world.

但你可以看到，我认为，就像路德和他的《圣经》那样。

But you can see, I think, I mean, just that thing of Luther with his Bible.

正如你所说，他不必花大量时间手抄它。

As you say, he doesn't have to spend lots of time kinda getting it written out.

他可以直接拥有它。

He can just have it.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，尽管他仍然是修士，但现在他是大学教授，有时间专心研究它。

And also the fact that although he's still a monk, now he's a university professor, he has the time to really focus in on it.

我的意思是，正是这一点让他能够以过去不可能的方式深入理解经文和文本。

I mean, this is what enables him to get to grips with scripture, with the text in a way that he you know, wouldn't have been possible

是的。

Yeah.

如果他早一个世纪成为修士，这根本不可能实现。

If he'd become a monk, say, a century before.

这根本是不可能的。

It just wouldn't have been possible.

而且，印刷、阅读和书籍的另一点不也是这样吗？

And isn't he also isn't the other thing about printing and reading and the book?

你会有那种体验。

You experience that.

那就是你一个人和书在一起。

It's just you in the book.

对吧？

Right?

这不是一种集体性的事情。

It's not a collective thing.

它不是通过某个机构来中介的。

It's not mediated by an institution.

但在修道院里，它可能是这样的，因为修士会在人们用餐或其他时候朗读圣经。

Well, it can be in a monastery because the monk would read out from the bible while people are dining or whatever.

但在大学里，是的。

But at a university, yes.

当然。

Absolutely.

是的。

Yeah.

它不一定要那样。

It doesn't have to be that way.

而所有将成为新教受众的人——律师、商人、乡绅，那些能够阅读、或许拥有书籍或渴望拥有书籍的人。

And all the people who are gonna be the audience of protestantism, lawyers, merchants, the gentry, people who can read and perhaps own books or aspire to own books.

因此，拥有这种与上帝话语的私人体验，意味着，从定义上讲，你拥有更个人主义的精神。

So to have that private experience with the word of god, yeah, it means, by definition, you have a more individualistic ethos.

你对宗教、学习和思想世界有一种更强烈的感受——那只是你和文本之间的互动，而不是别人告诉你该如何理解你可能根本无法接触到的文本。

You have a more a a sense of religion, learning, the world of the mind being just you and the text, not somebody else telling you what to make of a text that you perhaps don't even get to access yourself.

因此，这是技术与文化交汇的经典例子。

And so it's a classic example of the interface between technology and culture.

而且，正如你所说，路德谈到他用这种文本教授《圣经》的经历，能够与之建立一种个人化的关系。

And, I mean, just so Luther talking about his experience teaching the Bible with this text, being able, as you said, to have a kind of personal relationship with it.

在他晚年，他曾说，如果你把《圣经》想象成一棵参天大树，每个词都是一根小枝，我曾摇动过每一根枝条，因为我想要知道它是什么、它的含义是什么。

Much later in his life, he said, if you picture the Bible to be a mighty tree and every word a little branch, I have shaken every one of these branches because I wanted to know what it was and what it meant.

其结果是，他越来越建立起自己对经文的理解。

And the consequence of this is that increasingly he is establishing his own understanding of what scripture says.

由于他没有那些注释，没有那些评注，这种做法对他而言非常独特。

And because he doesn't have all those glosses, because he doesn't have the commentaries, it is something that is very distinctive to him.

到了1517年，也就是他发表《九十五条论纲》抨击赎罪券的那一年。

And by 1517, which is the year in which he will publish the the 95 theses on indulgences.

是的

Yeah.

所以他于秋天发表了九十五条论纲。

So he publishes the 95 theses in in the autumn.

但那年夏天，他撰写了九十七条论纲，得出了某些非常激进的结论。

But that summer, he writes up 97 theses in which he is coming to some very, very radical conclusions.

事实上，这些论纲比更为著名的九十五条论纲更加激进。

In fact, more radical than the the more famous 95 theses.

因此，在这些论纲中，他基本上否定了整个中世纪神学体系，尤其是伟大的哲学家亚里士多德。

So in these theses, he is essentially rejecting the entire structure of medieval theology, particularly Aristotle, the great philosopher

对。

Right.

他的哲学在十三世纪开始被学者们融入神学体系。

Whose philosophy in the thirteenth century had begun to be interwoven by scholars.

对。

Yeah.

因为亚里士多德生活在亚历山大大帝的时代。

Because Aristotle is living in the age of Alexander the Great.

他不是基督徒。

He's not a Christian.

对。

Right.

但他被融入了中世纪神学的体系中。

But he gets integrated with the fabric of medieval theology.

路德认为这简直疯狂。

And Luther comes to think that this is mad.

因此他说，一个人除非在不依赖亚里士多德的情况下成为神学家，否则就无法真正成为神学家。

And so he says, you know, one of his propositions is that no one can become a theologian unless he becomes one without Aristotle.

他一生都憎恨亚里士多德，称他为该死的、傲慢的、狡诈的异教徒，写出了史上最糟糕的书。

And he, all his life, will hate Aristotle, a damned, arrogant, roguish heathen, author of the worst books ever written.

哇。

Wow.

太棒了的评价。

So great review.

这比我的一些评价还要糟。

That's worse than some of my reviews.

所以他强调的是，你不需要亚里士多德。

And so he what he is emphasizing is you don't need Aristotle.

你不需要这些哲学。

You don't need all this philosophy.

你不需要中世纪教会所构建的这套庞大而宏大的体系。

You don't need all this massive great structure that the medieval church has been erecting.

你需要的是拉丁文中的‘唯独圣经’，仅靠圣经就够了。

What you need is in Latin, sola scriptura, the bible alone.

你只需要这个。

That's all you need.

是你和圣经，仅此而已。

It's you and the bible, and that's that's all you need.

汤姆，这是因为他也不信任亚里士多德的那些东西吗？

And, Tom, is that because he also distrusts the stuff of Aristotle?

你知道，亚里士多德把基督教和希腊思想这些东西融合在一起。

You know, Aristotle integrating that with Christianity and Greek thoughts and stuff.

这一切就像是，让我们花上几十年时间，去研究这些极其复杂的智力谜题，推敲所有概念的定义，探索它们的后果。

It's all like, let's spend, you know, decades with these very complicated kind of intellectual puzzles, working out all definitions of things and exploring the ramifications of them.

他不信任这些，因为他认为人类的理性本质上是腐败、罪恶和邪恶的。

And he distrusts that because he thinks human reason is necessarily corrupt and sinful and evil.

是的。

He does.

而且他对此有着极其深刻的看法。

And he thinks that again very, very profoundly.

所以，他在1517年发表的97条论纲中的另一条指出：人从根子上已被败坏，既无法渴望，也无法行出任何善事，只能行恶。

So another of his 97 theses that published that that 1517, the truth is that the human being corrupted to the root can neither desire nor perform anything but evil.

对。

Right.

因此，这就是为什么路德无法通过行善或其他方式赢得上帝的爱的原因。

And so this is an explanation for why Luther has been unable to win the love of God by doing good works or whatever.

实际上，他想表达的是，整个教义都是无稽之谈，你根本不可能做到。

Effectively, what he's saying is that that entire doctrine is nonsense, that there's no way that you can do it.

人类被罪恶深深渗透，无法靠自己赢得救赎。

The humans are so shot through with sin that you cannot win salvation for yourself.

汤姆，这不正是圣奥古斯丁对原罪之类问题的看法吗？他认为我们生性邪恶，唯有上帝才能使我们变好。

Tom, is that not what Saint Augustine thought about original sin and all that kind of thing, that we were wicked and no amount of you know, only God could make us good.

靠我们自己那微不足道的理智，根本无法使我们变得良善。

It wasn't in our own power, the power of our own puny minds to make us good.

这样理解对吗？

Is that alright?

关于奥古斯丁的教导，其实有各种不同的解读，但这种解读确实存在。

Well, there are kind of various interpretations of what Augustine taught, but that is certainly one interpretation.

当然，路德是奥古斯丁主义者，所以他对此非常清楚。

And, of course, Luther is an Augustinian, so he's very aware of that.

所以他一定会专注于奥古斯丁所教导的内容。

So he would have been focusing absolutely on what Augustine is teaching.

而且奥古斯丁写作时也是基于圣保罗的教导。

And also Augustine is writing in the context of what Saint Paul wrote.

因此，所有这些都在路德的脑海中不断翻腾——他意识到自己无法接近上帝，因为人类完全堕落，而这又使得魔鬼显得更加可怕。

So all of this is kind of bubbling away in Luther's mind, the sense that he cannot reach God because humans are are completely sinful, which in turn means that the devil is all the more terrifying.

是的。

Oh, yeah.

因为他对魔鬼着了魔。

Because because he's obsessed with the devil.

对吧？

Right?

他认为魔鬼就是路西法，那个堕落的天使吗？

Does he think the devil is Lucifer, the fallen angel?

他就是这么想的吗？

Is that what he thinks?

是的

Yeah.

他认为魔鬼无处不在。

And he thinks the devil is literally everywhere.

他就在你的茶杯里。

He's in your cup of tea.

他躲在家具后面。

He's lurking behind the furniture.

他存在于一切之中。

He's he's in everything.

他渗透着整个世界。

He permeates the world.

是这样吗？

Is that right?

是的

Yeah.

尤其是，魔鬼就寄居在……

And particularly, the the devil inhabits.

我的意思是，你可以称之为屎的维度。

I mean, you could call it a dimension of shit.

天哪。

Crikey.

我用这个词是有意的。

And I use the word advisedly.

所以那些认为路德是一位神学家、因此非常抽象的人，我的意思是，在某些方面他确实是，但在其他方面，他极其接地气。

So people who think that Luther is a theologian and therefore very abstract, I mean, in some senses, he is, but in other senses, he is unbelievably earthy.

他对神学的理解非常、非常根植于物质世界。

And his understanding of theology is very, very rooted in the physical.

他对魔鬼的理解，比如说，魔鬼被想象为寄居在屎的维度中。

And his understanding, say, of the devil, the devil is to be imagined as inhabiting the dimension of shit.

托比，你超爱这句话。

Toby, you love that phrase.

回到1515年，是的。

And back in 1515 Yeah.

路德被施陶皮茨任命，在修道院全体修士面前发表一篇仪式性讲道，主题聚焦于背后中伤。

Luther had been appointed by Staupitz to give a ceremonial sermon before all the monks in his monastery, and he focuses in on the theme of backbiting.

路德说，诽谤者所做的不过是用自己的牙齿咀嚼他人的污秽，像猪一样把鼻子埋在泥土里打滚。

And Luther says, a slanderer does nothing but ruminate the filth of others with his own teeth and wallow like a pig with his nose in the dirt.

这也是为什么他的粪便最臭，仅次于魔鬼的粪便。

This is also why his shit stinks most, surpassed only by the devils.

没有人会在私下排便。

And no man drops his shit in private.

诽谤者并不尊重这种隐私。

The slanderer does not respect this privacy.

他沉溺于沉浸其中的快感，根据上帝公义的审判，他不配得到更好的对待。

He gluts on the pleasure of wallowing in it, and he does not deserve better according to God's righteous judgment.

好的。

Okay.

嗯，你确实反复强调了这个词。

Well, you've really doubled down on the that word.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

荷兰学者海科·奥伯曼写了一本精彩著作，译名为《路德：上帝与魔鬼之间的人》。

And Heiko Obermann, a Dutch scholar, he wrote a brilliant book translated as Luther, man between God and the devil.

没错。

Yep.

他有一段精彩论述，谈到路德语言中那种刻意的粗俗——你甚至可以说带有某种排泄物般的特质，正如奥伯曼所言，这体现了他在肉体与灵魂上与威胁两者之敌进行的痛苦斗争。

He has a brilliant section on this, talking about how the deliberate earthiness I mean, you might almost say kind of scatological quality of of Luther's language that what he's doing there, and to quote Obman, it's expressive of the painful battle fought body and soul against the adversary who threatens both flesh and spirit.

所以西奥提出了一个我也想问的问题：你多次使用了这个词。

So Theo is asking a question that I would ask, which is you've used that word multiple times.

路德当时用的就是这个词吗？

Is that the word that that Luther would have used?

他不会说排泄物或者

He wouldn't have said excrement or

嗯，他是用拉丁语说的。

Well, he's doing it in Latin.

好吧。

Okay.

但那是一种最好用某种口语化方式翻译的拉丁语形式。

But it's a form of Latin that is best translated in a kind of colloquial.

这可不是什么'哦，粪便或排泄物'那种委婉说法。

It's not kind of, oh, stools or excrement.

对。

Right.

他选了一个非常粗俗的词。

He has picked a very vulgar word.

他是故意这么选的。

He's deliberately picked it.

好的。

Okay.

而且，你知道，他就像在向所有其他僧侣布道一样宣扬这一点。

And, you know, and he's preaching this as in a sermon before all his fellow monks.

所以他在这一点上并没有什么特别出众的地方。

So it's not like he's anything particularly exceptional there.

但我认为，正如我们后续将看到的，他在对排泄物的痴迷上确实如此。

But I think actually in his obsession with the scatological, as we will see in due course, he is.

因此，他对罪恶所代表的危险有着非常生动、接地气的理解，嗯。

And so he has this very, very vivid, earthy sense of the danger that sin represents Mhmm.

这种理解很大程度上源于厕所和马桶。

Kind of founded in latrines and Toilets.

是的。

Yeah.

粪便、马桶以及各种各样的东西。

Excrement and toilets and all kinds of things.

但他也开始逐渐意识到，或许存在一种方式，能够超越这一切，摆脱中世纪教会的种种繁文缛节，与上帝建立一种更为个人化的关系。

But also, he is starting to develop a sense that perhaps there is a way of getting beyond this, of reaching beyond all the kind of paraphernalia of the medieval church and having a kind of more personal relationship with God.

但迄今为止，我认为这种想法尚未完全成形。

But as yet, I think it's not entirely formed.

但随后发生了一件事，使这些模糊的感受变得清晰起来。

But a thing then happens that focuses these inchoate feelings.

这改变了所有事情。

That changes everything.

这改变了所有事情。

That changes everything.

这正是我们这个系列开篇所提到的时刻——他反对赎罪券。

And this is the moment that we began this series with, which is his opposition to indulgences.

是的。

Yeah.

这一切是由那个秋天发生的一件事触发的：一场完整的赎罪券销售巡回活动涌入了萨克森。

And it's triggered by something that happens that autumn, which is that a kind of an entire indulgence selling roadshow comes rolling into Saxon.

这由一位修士领导，他是多明我会的，而不是奥古斯丁会的。

And it's led by a friar, so a Dominican, so not an Augustinian.

因此，人们本能地知道，多明我会和奥古斯丁会之间存在着激烈的竞争。

So there's a kind of instinctively you know, there's a great rivalry between Dominicans and Augustinians.

这位修士名叫约翰·特策尔，那真是一场盛大的表演。

And this friar is called Johann Tetzel, and, you know, it's a a great show.

他身边还带着一些官员。

He's accompanied by officials.

他让人举着教皇的纹章十字架。

He's got people to carry the papal coat of arms on a cross.

他带来了教皇签发的所有赎罪券，这些赎罪券都铺在丝绒垫子上。

He's got all these indulgences that have been issued by the pope, and they're kind of laid out on velvet cushion.

他登场时，之所以要大张旗鼓，就是为了吸引人群。

And he comes in, and and the reason that he wants to make a show is he wants to draw a crowd.

一旦人群聚集，他就开始布道，那简直是一场毫无廉耻的强力推销。

And the moment the crowd is there, he launches into a sermon, and it's an absolutely shameless hard sell.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，他说，买下这份赎罪券，否则你所有的亲人、你的父母，或者无论谁，你所爱的人都会在火焰中痛苦挣扎。

You know, he's saying, buy this indulgence or all your relatives, your parents, or whoever, your loved ones will be writhing in the flames.

爱

Love

它。

it.

他臭名昭著地声称，他的赎罪券效果如此之好，即使有人强奸了圣母玛利亚，也能保证获得完全的

He notoriously claims that his indulgences are so effective that even if someone had raped the Virgin Mary, he would be assured complete

炼狱赦免。

remission of purgatory.

尽管赎罪券本不应该被出售。

And even though indulgences are not supposed to be sold.

所以这不像那种'花钱就能出炼狱，随便给我多少钱都行'的情况。

So it's not like, you know, get out of purgatory and pay me whatever.

你做出奉献，就像做善事或去朝圣一样。

You make the offering, you know, as you might do a good work or go on a pilgrimage or whatever.

对。

Right.

但特策尔在这方面太过明目张胆，以至于有一首著名的顺口溜被归于他名下。

But Tetzel basically is so blatant about it that a notorious jingle is attributed to him.

虽然从未出现在他讲道的记录中，但所有相关资料都将其归于他。

Never actually appears in the record of his sermons, but it is in all the sources attributed to him.

金币一叮当落进钱箱，灵魂便立刻跳出炼狱。

As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs.

在历史的其他时候，我们绝不会这样行事，对吧？

We would never behave like that in the rest of history, would we?

我们就是这样的。

We're there.

我们绝不会如此无缝地推销产品。

We would never advertise products so seamlessly.

我们会

We would

绝不会，绝不会强行推销。

never, never hard sell.

不会。

No.

不会。

No.

我们绝不会这么做。

We'd never do that.

这简直是赤裸裸的腐败。

So it's pretty nakedly corrupt.

是的。

Yeah.

你不得不想，为什么教会会容忍这种事？

And you have to wonder, well, why is the church tolerating it?

原因在于，基本上每个人都能从中获益。

And the reason for that is that basically everyone is benefiting from it.

所以，特策尔筹集的这笔钱据称是要送往罗马，用于重建圣彼得大教堂的。

So this money that is being raised by Tetzel is supposedly going to Rome to pay for the rebuilding of Saint Peter's.

汤姆，这确实是件非常重要的事。

Well, that's a really important thing, Tom.

因为教皇想要重建圣彼得大教堂，是由于教皇在几十年前曾离开罗马，导致罗马城完全荒废了。

Because the pope wants to rebuild Saint Peter's because the pope is previously, decades ago, was out of Rome, and Rome fell into total dereliction.

而且所有的君主，包括教皇在内，你知道的，他们其实都在某种程度上武装自己，不是吗？

And all monarchs, the pope included, are really kind of you know, they're kind of tooling up, aren't they?

在十六世纪初，他们的权力确实有所增强。

At the beginning of the sixteenth century, they've got a bit more power.

他们想要更盛大的排场。

They want greater display.

他们想要更宏伟的宣言，就像亨利八世那样。

They want more grandiose statements like Henry the eighth.

所以教皇也想参与其中，他希望通过重建圣彼得大教堂，既作为其新权力和自信的世俗象征，也作为精神上的体现。

So the pope wants in on that too, and he wants to rebuild Saint Peter's as an earthly statement as well as a sort of spiritual one of his new power and his confidence.

是这样吗？

Is that right?

所以这很昂贵，但很有益处。

So it's expensive, but it's beneficial.

你知道，这是圣父啊。

You know, it's the holy father.

因此，这笔钱用于这个目的完全是正当的。

So it's perfectly legitimate that the money raised from this might go to it.

哦。

Oh.

但实际上，只有一半的钱到了教皇手里，另一半则流向了奥格斯堡的一个银行家族——富格尔家族。

But in fact, only half of it is going to the pope because the rest of it is going to a a family of bankers in Augsburg called the Fuggers.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，他们是十六世纪初期的巨头。

Well, they're the huge names in the in the early sixteenth century.

富格尔家族，他们是那个伟大的银行王朝，对吧？

The Fuggers, they're the great banking dynasty, aren't they?

是的。

Yeah.

所以是他们出版了报道阿兹特克征服的报纸

So they're the ones who published the newspaper that report the conquest of the Aztecs

没错。

Exactly.

我们在系列节目中提过。

That we mentioned in our series.

是的。

Yeah.

而钱会流向他们的原因是，基本上，美因茨大主教——也就是德国的大人物，他是神圣罗马帝国一个王侯家族的幼子，名叫阿尔布雷希特。

And the reason that the money is going to them is because, basically, the archbishop of Mainz, so big cheese in Germany, who's the younger son of a princely family in the the holy Roman emperor, a man called Albrecht.

是的。

Yeah.

他欠他们两万一千达克特。

And he owes the fuckers 21,000 ducats.

他欠他们两万一千达克特的原因是他同意支付这笔钱给教皇，作为建造圣彼得大教堂的捐赠。

And the reason that he owes them 21,000 ducats is because he has agreed to pay that sum to the pope as a donation to the building of Saint Peter's.

他同意这么做是因为他实际上在贿赂教皇，因为他是个年轻人。

And the reason he's agreed to do that is because he is effectively bribing the pope because he's a very young man.

他只有27岁。

He's only 27.

他已经是两个教区的主教了。

He's already the bishop of two bishoprics, two cities.

现在，美因茨大主教区空出来了。

And now the archbishopric of of Mainz has come free.

他也想要这个职位。

He wants that as well.

为了让教皇同意这件事，这就是他支付这么多钱的原因。

And to get the pope to agree to this, this is why he's paying him all this money.

还有件事，汤姆。

And one more thing, Tom.

他想成为美因茨大主教，因为那是神圣罗马帝国的七大选帝侯之一。

He wants to become the archbishop of Mainz because it's one of the seven electors of the holy Roman empire.

所以是的。

So Yeah.

他非常希望得到它

It really matters to him to get

他会不惜一切财务代价，为他的家族、他的王朝争取到这个职位。

it, and he will do whatever it takes financially to get his hands on that post for his family, for his dynasty.

所以一切事情都联系在一起了，政治、金融和教会。

And so everything kind of connects, the politics, banking, the church.

确实如此。

It does.

每个人都从中受益。

And everyone is benefiting.

是的。

Yeah.

这些混蛋赚得盆满钵满。

The fuckers get rich.

阿尔布雷希特得到了主教职位。

Albrecht gets his archbishopric.

教皇得到了大量资金来建造圣彼得大教堂。

The pope gets lots of money to build Saint Peter's.

是的。

Yeah.

所有信徒都能从炼狱中解脱出来。

And all the the faithful get to get out of purgatory.

太棒了。

Brilliant.

每个人

Everyone

都赢了。

wins.

实际上，并不是每个人都赢了，因为弗雷德里克没有赢，因为他不希望泰策尔来打扰他的圣物收藏。

Actually, not everyone wins because Frederick doesn't win because he doesn't want Tetzel coming and distracting from his relic collection.

所以泰策尔实际上不被允许进入维滕贝格。

So Tetzel is not actually allowed into Wittenberg.

因为如果你能买赎罪券，就不会特意去看圣物了。

Because you're not gonna go to see a relic if you can buy an indulgence instead.

没错。

No.

所以泰策尔把自己的基地设在维滕贝格东北约二十英里处。

So so Tetzel bases himself about 20 miles northeast of Wittenberg.

但显然，关于他活动的消息传到了维滕贝格，也传到了路德那里。

But, obviously, news of his activities reaches Wittenberg, and it reaches Luther.

路德彻底爆发了，因为这体现了他正在怀疑的一切。

And Luther absolutely explodes because it's expressive of everything that he is coming to doubt.

你知道，他认为所有这类赎罪券都是骗局。

You know, he regards all this kind of indulgent stuff as a scam.

是的。

Yeah.

如果他知道了阿尔布雷希特在做什么，这种感觉肯定会更加强烈。

And that sense would definitely be sharpened if he'd known what Albrecht was up to.

所以他并不知道阿尔布雷希特是这些赎罪券的直接受益者。

So he doesn't know that Albrecht is a direct beneficiary of these indulgences.

但他还是毫不犹豫地写下了自己的论文。

But he does it doesn't stop him from launching, you know, in his thesis that he writes up.

他直接猛烈地抨击了大主教。

He launches a very, very direct attack on the archbishop.

路德写道：基督从未命令过要宣扬赎罪券。

Luther writes, on no occasion has Christ ordered that indulgences should be preached.

主教允许 indulgences 在他的民众中大声喧哗，而福音却被沉默，这该是多么可怕的灾难啊，比起更关心 indulgences 的销售而非福音，这更危险。

What a horror, what a danger for a bishop to permit the loud noise of indulgences among his people while the gospel is silenced than to be more concerned with the sale of indulgences than with the gospel.

所以，非常直接明了。

So very, very forthright.

这是他将在10月31日万圣节前夕公布的95条论纲之一。

And, you know, this is one of the 95 theses that he will promulgate on the October 31, which is all hallows eve.

是的。

Yep.

维滕贝格挤满了朝圣者，因为他们都来参加11月1日的节日。

And Wittenberg is full of pilgrims because they've all come to mark the festival on the November 1 Yeah.

去参观弗雷德里克的圣物收藏。

To go to Frederick's relic collection.

他们来是为了看燃烧的荆棘丛和被希律王杀害的人的遗体。

They're coming to look at the burning bush and the corpse of the person killed by King Herod.

所有这些东西。

All of that.

在本系列的开头，我们阅读了理查德·雷克斯关于路德的著作

Now at the beginning of this series, we read from Richard Rex's book on Luther

是的

Yeah.

一段记载。

An account.

把论纲钉在门上的事，汤姆。

Nailing their theses to the door, Tom.

但雷克斯在书中指出，而且他绝不是唯一这么认为的人，这件事几乎肯定没有发生过。

But as Rex in his book goes to point out, and he's absolutely not alone in doing this, it almost certainly didn't happen.

什么？

What?

路德从未真正提到过这件事。

Luther never actually mentions it.

熬了两个小时，你居然让我们这么失望。

After two hours, you let us down like this.

但等等。

But just wait.

所以这个故事最早出现在1546年。

So the earliest appearance of the story isn't isn't until 1546.

事实上，如果真像传统所说的那样发生了，也不会有多大影响，因为教授们把东西贴在或钉在门上，这根本就是家常便饭。

And the truth is actually that if it had happened, as, you know, the tradition says, it wouldn't have had much impact because actually professors going and pasting things on doors or nailing them on doors, this is par for the course.

这没什么特别的。

There's nothing particularly exceptional about it.

对。

Right.

路德真正做的要激进得多。

What Luther actually does is much more radical.

他把他的论纲印刷了出来。

He has his theses printed.

而且，这又回到了你之前提到的印刷术的重要性。

And again, this goes back to what you were saying about the importance of the printing press.

如果他只是写下来，把它们贴在某个偏僻大学小镇的教堂门上，就不会产生这样的影响。

If he'd just written them up and put them on the doors of a church in an obscure university town, it wouldn't have had the impact.

但他把它们印了出来，这样就能传遍整个帝国。

But he prints them off, and so they can be sent out across the empire.

而且他特别把它们寄给了奥古斯丁修会的上级，以及德国各地的权贵们，是的。

And specifically, he sends them to his superiors in the Augustinian order to various movers and shakers across Germany Yeah.

还寄给了美因茨的阿尔布雷希特大主教。

And to the archbishop himself, to Albrecht in Mainz.

当然，这是一种利用新技术推广自己观点的非常现代的策略。

And, of course, this is, you know, this is a very modern strategy using new technology to promote your message.

它可能会迅速走红。

It can go viral.

是的。

Yeah.

这不是一种传统的方式，多米尼克。

It's it's not an analog approach, Dominic.

这是一种数字手段。

It's a digital approach.

对。

Right.

它们确实以巨大的影响迅速传播开来。

And they do indeed go viral with huge consequences.

人们会不会说，宗教改革的风暴云正在基督教世界上空聚集，多米尼克？

One might say that the storm clouds of reformation are gathering over Christendom, Dominic?

天哪。

Oh my word.

随着约翰·特策尔的厚颜无耻。

With the shamelessness of Johann Tetzel.

就是这样。

There we go.

实际上，说到约翰·特策尔的厚颜无耻，这真是一个绝佳的悬念。

Well, actually, talking of the shamelessness of Johann Tetzel, this is an amazing cliffhanger.

是的。

Yes.

所以路德引爆了这颗炸弹。

So Luther has detonated this bomb.

他的真理炸弹。

His truth bomb.

对。

Right.

这将彻底改变欧洲的政治、文化和思想。

Which is going to which is gonna completely revolutionize European politics, culture, and thought.

而且，如果你想知道接下来发生了什么，只需加入俱乐部即可。

And, actually, if if you want to find out what happened next, you just have to sign up to the club.

记住，只要硬币落入钱箱，特奥地下室的剧集就会上演。

Remember, as soon as the coin and the coffer rings, the episode from Theo's basement springs.

唱吧。

Sing.

那么，杰夫，我的意思是，你为什么要拿自己不朽的灵魂去冒险呢？

So, Jeff, I mean, why would you wanna risk your immortal soul?

现在就加入历史俱乐部的其余部分，你就能听到所有后续内容了。

Join up to the rest rest of of this history club now, and you can hear all the rest.

在这个重磅消息上，汤姆，非常感谢你，我们下次再见。

And on that bombshell, Tom, thank you very much, and we'll see you next time.

再见。

Bye bye.

再见。

Bye bye.