本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
六十天过去了，教皇给了马丁·路德时间悔改，否则将被定为异端。
Sixty days, the papacy had given Martin Luther to recant or else be damned as a heretic.
现在到了12月10日，最后期限到了。
Now on the December 10, the time was up.
那天早上九点，路德穿过城中的三座城门之一，来到一个焚烧垃圾的深坑旁。
That morning at 09:00, Luther walked through one of the three town gates to where a carrion pit lay.
那里已经聚集了一大群人。
A large crowd had gathered there.
路德在大学的一位同事、神学家约翰·阿格里科拉点燃了火。
One of Luther's colleagues from the university, a theologian named Johann Agricola, lit a fire.
这个地方原本是用来焚烧附近医院死者衣物的。
The spot was where the clothes of those who had died in the nearby hospital were burned.
但阿格里科拉没有使用破布，而是用书籍当燃料。
But Agricola, rather than rags, used books as fuel.
整个早上，他和路德都在翻查图书馆，搜寻教会法的典籍。
All that morning, he and Luther had been ransacking libraries for collections of canon law.
如果两人能找到一本阿奎那的著作，他们也会把它烧掉。
Had the two men been able to find a volume of Aquinas, they would have burned that as well.
不过，他们准备的燃料已经足够了。
Their kindling though proved sufficient.
火焰开始熊熊燃烧。
The fire began to blaze.
阿格里科拉继续将书籍投入火中。
Agricola continued to feed books into the flames.
然后，路德从人群中走了出来。
Then Luther stepped out from the crowd.
他浑身颤抖。
He was trembling.
他高举着那道谴责他教义的教皇诏书。
He held up the papal decree that had condemned his teachings.
因为你们歪曲了上帝的真理，”他用洪亮的声音说道，“今天，主就让你们与这诏书一同被火焚烧。
Because you have confounded the truth of God, he said in a ringing voice, today the Lord confounds you into the fire with you.
他把教令扔进了火焰中。
He dropped the decree into the flames.
羊皮纸变黑、卷曲，化为青烟。
The parchment blackened and curled and turned to smoke.
当路德转身穿过城门时，灰烬在冬日的微风中飘散旋转。
As Luther turned and walked back through the city gate, ashes skittered and swirled on the winter breeze.
原来那是丹·布朗。
So that was Dan Brown.
那是汤姆·霍兰德。
That was Tom Holland.
真没礼貌。
So rude.
在你的鸿篇巨制《主宰》中，你详述了基督教的历史及其如何塑造了西方世界，事实上，汤姆，我认为这样说毫不为过。
In Dominion, which is your magisterial book about the history of Christianity and how it has shaped the Western world, indeed the entire world, Tom, I think it's fair to say.
这真是一个精彩绝伦的场景。
And this is an amazing set piece moment.
所以我们现在进入本系列的第三集，这个系列讲述的是在过去五六百年里， arguably 对西方世界影响最大的人物——马丁·路德。他正在焚烧一份针对他的教皇诏书。
So we are now in episode three of this series about the human being who in the last five to six hundred years has arguably shaped the Western world as much as any other, maybe more than any other, Martin Luther, he is burning a papal bull, a papal decree that was targeted at him.
这等于公开与教廷宣战了，汤姆。
So this is open war with the papacy, Tom.
是的。
It is.
这正是《主啊，求你兴起》这首颂歌的由来，教皇于1520年6月15日发布了这份诏书，给路德六十天时间悔改，否则将被逐出教会。
So this is ex Sergei Domine, rise up, o lord, and the pope had issued it on the 06/15/1520 and had given Luther sixty days to recant or be excommunicated.
六十天期限已到，路德对此最后通牒的回应，正如文中所写。
And the sixty days are up, and Luther's response to this deadline is as written in that.
堪称恢弘的赞誉。
Magisterial praise.
太美了。
Beautiful.
这份诏书特别谴责了路德提出的41项主张。
And the bull is specifically censoring 41 propositions that Luther has put forward.
这些主张中有一条，多米尼克，是烧死异端是错误的。
And one of those propositions, Dominic, is that it's wrong to burn heretics.
因此，死亡的危险
And so the danger of death
是的。
Yep.
路德如此直接地挑战教皇，你知道，这
The fact that Luther, by directly taking on the papacy like this, you know, I mean, it's
对。
Yeah.
是极其危险的行为。
An exceedingly dangerous thing to do.
这是生死攸关的事。
This is life and death.
是的。
Yes.
这件事发生在维滕贝格
And this is happening in Wittenberg
嗯。
Mhmm.
这是萨克森选帝侯弗雷德里克的首都。
The capital of Frederick, the elector of Saxony.
是的。
Yep.
路德是大学的一名教授。
And Luther is a professor at the university.
因此，弗雷德里克有充分的理由支持他。
So Frederick has every stake in kind of backing him.
自从我们第二集结尾提到的那次伟大而著名的反抗行为以来，已经过去了三年。
And three years have passed since that great and celebrated act of defiance that we ended episode two with.
钉上九十五条论纲，不管是不是钉在教堂的门上。
Hammering the theses or not on the walls of the church or churches.
是的
Yes.
钉在教堂的门上。
Onto the doors of the church.
在这三年里，路德引发了一场规模空前的危机，这是拉丁基督教世界自十一世纪以来从未见过的。
And in those three years, Luther has precipitated a crisis on a scale that Latin Christendom has never witnessed before, at least not since the eleventh century.
天哪。
Crikey.
这场危机的特征主要有三个方面。
And the features of the crisis, they're kind of threefold, really.
本质上，这是关于教会——中世纪的教会、罗马教会，无论你怎么称呼它——在 asserting 其权威。
So it's about the church essentially asserting its authority, the medieval church, the Roman church, whatever you wanna call it.
嗯。
Mhmm.
早在1517年，之所以发行赎罪券，是因为教会坚信基督徒可以通过自己的行为摆脱炼狱，是的。
So back in 1517, the whole reason why these indulgences are being issued is because the church is manifesting its assumption that Christians can earn their way out of purgatory Yeah.
通过购买它们，或者做一些善事、朝圣之类的各种行为。
Through buying them or, you know, or through a whole host doing good works, pilgrimages, whatever.
这种观念认为，基督徒可以积累一种精神资本，用以摆脱炼狱，更快地进入天堂。
This idea that there is a kind of spiritual capital that Christians can draw on to get themselves out of purgatory and get to heaven sooner.
当然，在1520年，人们普遍认为教会有权铲除异端。
And, of course, in 1520, the assumption is that the church has the right to eradicate heresy.
这就是为什么教皇发布了诏书。
This is why the pope has issued the bull.
汤姆，我能问个问题吗？
Can I ask a quick question, Tom?
是的。
Yeah.
很多人会这么想。
Lots of people will be thinking this.
为什么叫‘诏书’呢？
Why is it called a bull?
它被称为教皇诏书，也就是所谓的教皇诏书。
It's called a bull, which is obviously a papal bull.
这听起来
That sounds
是的。
Yeah.
这非常新教。
That's very Protestant.
但诏书就是诏书。
But a bull it's a buller.
它是一种盖在文本上的印章。
It's a kind of a seal that stamps the the text of it.
好的。
Okay.
行。
Fine.
我一直很好奇。
I've always wondered.
你知道，教会早就一直在做这件事了。
And, you know, and the church has been doing this for a long time.
因此，这份针对路德的教皇诏书中使用的一个短语，和我们之前关于阿尔比十字军的那期节目里听众可能记得的短语是一样的。
So one of the phrases that is used in this papal bull that's targeting Luther is the same phrase that people who listen to our episode on the Albigensian crusades may remember.
是的。
Yeah.
那个关于小狐狸企图毁坏葡萄园的短语。
The phrase about the little foxes seeking to destroy the vineyard.
完全是同一个短语。
Exactly the same phrase.
汤姆，为了提醒大家一下，路德张贴（或钉上，具体是否如此取决于你的观点）这些论纲，是因为他愤怒地看到一个家伙到处游荡，一个类似狂欢节式的修士。
And, Tom, just to remind people, Luther hammered up these theses or nailed them up or didn't, depending on your view, because he was outraged because a bloke was going around, a kind of carnivalesque monk Yeah.
这个家伙到处兜售赎罪券，为的是筹集资金重建罗马的圣彼得大教堂，路德觉得这简直可耻。
Was going around selling indulgences to raise money for the rebuilding of Saint Peter's Basilica in Rome, Luther just thought this was disgraceful.
是的。
Yeah.
结果情况更糟，因为大量资金流入了一家银行，这家银行曾资助一位想成为大主教的未成年主教。
And it turns out to be even worse because actually loads of the money is going to a bank Yeah.
所以这完全是一场彻头彻尾的腐败。
That has given money to an underage bishop who wanted to become archbishop.
这确实非常腐败。
So it's all fabulously corrupt.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这是其中一个方面。
So that's one aspect of it.
教会基本上试图压制这种不断发酵的叛乱。
The church basically trying to put the lid on this kind of bubbling rebellion.
是的。
Yeah.
第二条线索当然是路德挑战了教会的根本教义。
And the second thread, of course, is Luther defying really fundamental teachings of the church.
因此在1517年，当他抨击赎罪券时，他也在攻击整个教义——即罪人可以通过自身行为摆脱炼狱的惩罚，罪人有能力为自己罪行的惩罚寻求解脱。
So in 1517, when he's attacking indulgences, he is also attacking the entire dogma that sinners can basically earn their way out of purgatory, that sinners have agency in getting rid of the penalty for their own sins.
是的。
Yeah.
这进而促使他质疑教皇所宣称的主导地位，甚至整个神职阶层的地位。
And that then leads him on to question the leading role claimed by the papacy and indeed, actually, the entire clergy.
因此，他开始走向一种观点，即神职人员并没有特殊地位。
So he's starting to move towards a position that the clergy have no particular status.
而这一切很大程度上源于路德声称自己是圣经研究的教授。
And so much of this comes from Luther saying he's been the professor of bible studies.
是的。
Yeah.
在维滕贝格大学。
At the university in Wittenberg.
而他很大程度上是在说，你知道吗？
And so much of this is him saying, actually, do know what?
这些内容在圣经里根本找不到。
None of this is in the bible.
如果一切都要源自圣经，那这些全都是后来杜撰出来的无稽之谈。
And if everything is meant to come from the bible, this is all just Tosh that has been dreamed up subsequently.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这既源于他阅读圣经，也源于他拉扯一根线，结果整块地毯都散开了。
And so it's partly from his reading the bible, and it's partly from his tugging on a thread and the whole carpet falls to pieces.
是的。
Yeah.
因此，如果你质疑一个基本教义，就会开始质疑教皇的角色，进而质疑神职人员的角色。
So if you question a fundamental dogma, then you start to question the role of the papacy, then you start to question the role of the clergy.
本质上，路德逐渐形成了一种更民主的基督教观念，在这种观念中，神职人员与平信徒之间的界限正在被消除。
And, essentially, Luther is coming to a much more democratic understanding of what it is to be a Christian, one in which the division between the clergy and the laity is being erased.
所以，他说每个真正的基督徒，无论生死，都分享基督和教会的一切恩典。
So, you know, he says every true Christian, whether living or dead, has a part in all the blessings of Christ and the church.
他是不是在想自己在回归早期基督徒的状态？
Is he thinking he's getting back to the early Christians?
是的。
Yes.
就像《使徒行传》里那种基督徒？
Like, the acts of the apostles kind of Christians?
对。
Yeah.
因此，他开始构建一种与传统观点截然不同的基督教历史观。
And so he's starting to construct an understanding of Christian history, is radically opposed to the traditional one.
所以他基本上是在说，早期教会是正确的，但之后一切都走偏了。
So he is essentially saying that you have the early church, and then it all goes wrong.
对。
Yeah.
他逐渐走向一种观点，认为教皇就是《启示录》中所描述的巴比伦大淫妇。
And he is moving towards a position in which the papacy is the whore of Babylon as described in the book of Revelation.
因此，你知道，一千多年以来，它一直在腐蚀和污染基督纯正的教导，这显然是一个极为激进的修正。
And therefore, you know, a thousand years and more, it's been corrupting and polluting the pure teachings of Christ, which is obviously a very radical revision.
这肯定不会让教皇高兴。
It's not gonna go down well with the pope.
正如我们所见，这不会被接受，因为他发布了教皇诏书。
It's not gonna go down well as we see, because he he issues his bull.
但使这场危机加剧的第三个方面是，路德是自我宣传的绝对高手。
But the third aspect of what is making this a crisis is that Luther is an absolute master of self promotion.
而且，你知道，这真的出人意料。
And, you know, this is really unexpected.
我的意思是，他只是一个名不见经传大学的教授，却偏偏点燃了导火索。
I mean, he's a professor in an obscure university, but he just kind of lights the touch paper.
他对印刷术的精通——这一点我们在上一集已经讨论过。
And his mastery of particularly of printing, which we talked about in the previous episode.
我的意思是，印刷术已经存在了一个世纪左右，但他却恰好适应了这场社交媒体革命。
I mean, printing has been around for about a century, but he turns out to be absolutely suited to a kind of social media revolution.
我的意思是，伟大的新教历史学家亚历克·雷里说，他在德语论战方面展现出一种原始的、类似特朗普式的才华。
I mean, so, Alec Reyrie, great historian of Protestantism, he says he turns out to have a kind of raw Trumpian brilliance at German language polemic.
德国版的特朗普。
German Trump.
我的意思是，人们之前一直在购买印刷品，但路德让这一切变得令人兴奋。
And I think that, you know, people have been buying printed matter, but Luther makes it exciting.
于是人们养成了购买的习惯，甚至可能读给那些不识字的人听等等。
And so they get into the habit of buying it and perhaps kind of reading it out to people who can't read and so on.
正是路德真正创造了购买印刷品的市场，这是以前从未有人做到过的。
And so it's Luther really who generates the market for buying printed matter in a way that no one had done previously.
你知道你那个特朗普式的类比。
And you know your Trumpian analogy.
路德的言辞中确实有一种民粹主义的倾向，不是吗？
There's a kind of populist side to Luther's rhetoric, isn't it?
他擅长
He's brilliant at
是的。
Yeah.
用非常激烈、粗俗、有时又搞笑的方式描述事物。
Describing things in very aggressive, scatological, sometimes funny Yeah.
用一种近乎原始的、接地气的表达方式，这可能是其他神学家几乎做不到的。
Raw kind of earthy terms in a way that maybe virtually no other theologians can do.
所以他能接触到其他人无法触及的人群？
So he can reach people who other people can't reach?
是的。
Yes.
绝对如此。
Absolutely.
他做的另一件事是，非常擅长策划公共活动。
And the other thing that he does is that he's very, good at staging a public event.
所以1520年焚烧教皇诏书，这是一次刻意制造的戏剧性举动。
So the burning of the bull in 1520, it's a deliberately dramatic thing.
是的。
Yeah.
这可不是异端分子会做的事。
This is not what heretics do.
被定罪的异端通常会躲起来。
Heretics who are condemned kind of you know, they hide.
他们不会公开挑战教皇，因为那太疯狂了。
They they don't publicly defy the pope because that would be mad.
但路德能这么做，因为他有腓特烈在背后保护他。
But Luther can do it because he has Frederick is kinda guarding his back.
是的。
Yeah.
但他其实是在上演一场反抗的庆典。
But, you know, he's staging a kind of festival of defiance.
在焚烧教皇诏书之后，他得到了所有学生的支持。
And in the wake of the burning of the bull, he has got all his students behind him.
因此，学生们纷纷聚集在他身边。
So the students are rallying to him.
所以在维滕贝格焚烧教皇诏书的第二天，学生们制作了一个巨大的花车，并用对教皇诏书和法令的讽刺模仿品装饰它。
So the day after the burning of the bull in Wittenberg, students build an enormous float, and they they kind of festoon it with parodies of papal bulls and decrees and so on.
他们驾着花车在镇上巡游，然后把所有东西都烧掉了。
And they drive it around the town, and then they burn the whole lot.
其中一人装扮成教皇，戴着教皇冠，随后把冠冕扔进了火堆。
And one of them has dressed up as a pope in a kind of, you know, the papal tiara, and he then tosses his tiara into the fire.
这是一场盛大的反抗庆典，而且非常有趣。
So this is a kind of great festival of defiance, and it's fun.
好的。
Okay.
那为什么人们要这么做呢？
So why are people doing that?
因为路德所说的内容非常具有争议性。
Because what Luther is saying is very scandalous.
所以这里有两种可能：要么学生们被路德的思想所折服，或许是因为他是一位极其出色的教师，又或许是因为这种观点一直存在潜在的受众；要么他们只是因为觉得好玩才这么做？
So there are two possibilities there that either the students kind of are converted to Luther's way of thinking, maybe because he's such a brilliant teacher or maybe because there was always a latent audience for that message, or are they just doing it because it's fun?
我认为两者都有。
I think both.
好的。
Okay.
我认为，我们往往容易忽视基督教教义的陈述竟然会如此令人兴奋。
And I think that I mean, I guess we are so prone to not thinking that statements on Christian doctrine are exciting.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，今天人们通常不会觉得这类话题能激发热情。
I mean, it's not the kind of thing that that infuses people by and large today.
但当时，这却是你能做的最令人激动的事情。
But back then, it is the most thrilling thing you can do.
是的。
Yeah.
而且，你只要看看今天在社交媒体上推动那些让保守派反感的教义时所激发的那种兴奋感就知道了。
And, I mean, you just have to look at the sense of excitement that powers, I don't know, the pushing of doctrines that are offensive to conservatives today, say, on social media.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Of course.
我的意思是，人们很喜欢这样。
I mean, people love it.
他们确实喜欢。
They do.
同样，保守派也很享受反击的过程。
And likewise, conservatives quite enjoy kind of punching back.
没错。
Exactly.
你知道我刚才在想什么吗？
Do know what I was thinking about?
我在想2020年，乔治·弗洛伊德死后，人们大规模攻击雕像之类的事件激增。
I was thinking about 2020, the surge in people, like, attacking statues and stuff after the death of George Floyd.
是的。
Yes.
没错。
Exactly.
有些人
Some people
他们在那里是因为真的相信这个事业。
are there because they really believe in the cause.
有些人只是去凑热闹。
Some people are there because it's a laugh.
他们想出来感受抗议的狂欢氛围，体验那种令人陶醉的感觉。
They wanna get out, the carnivalesque side of protest, the intoxication of it.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为这完全正确，因为从长远来看，雕像终将被推倒。
And I think that that is exactly right because in the long run, statues will be toppled.
随着时间推移，各种偶像也终将被推倒。
Icons will be toppled in due course.
原因与推倒奴隶贩子雕像之类的行为完全类似，嗯。
And for reasons that are exactly analogous to the toppling of, you know, statues of slavers or whatever Mhmm.
因为它们被视为罪恶的象征。
That they are seen to be sinful.
在二十一世纪，公开展示你的虔诚，其吸引力与十六世纪时一样强烈。
And a public display of, you know, your godliness is as exciting in the twenty first century as it was in the sixteenth century.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这一切本质上都追溯到路德。
So it all goes back to Luther, basically.
好的。
Okay.
所以今天，我认为我们应该看看他是如何从张贴九十五条论纲，如果他确实这么做了，
So today, I think we should look at how we get from Luther banging up the theses, if that's what he does
对。
Yep.
到被开除教籍的过程。
To him being excommunicated.
好的。
Okay.
在九十五条论纲张贴之后发生的事情是，他将这些论纲也翻译成了德语和拉丁语。
And what happens in the wake of the 95 theses going up is that he has them printed in German as well as Latin.
这些论纲在公元1518年新年之际开始出现在各大书店。
And these these start to hit the bookstores in, you know, the new year of fifteen eighteen.
它们由整个帝国各地的印刷厂印制。
And they are produced by presses across the entire empire.
所以，如今德国的全部地区，以及瑞士和将来将成为荷兰的地区也都包括在内。
So the whole of what is now Germany and indeed Switzerland and in what will be The Netherlands as well.
是的。
Yeah.
因为这些论纲尖锐、易懂，而且常常十分幽默，人们都能理解。
And because the theses are are sharp, they're understandable, they're often quite witty, people can understand them.
而且他们真的很享受阅读这些内容。
And they kinda really enjoy reading up.
这几乎就像给他们带来了一首自由的歌，带有一丝亵渎的刺激感。
Kinda gives them a free song, you know, almost a kind of the shiver of blasphemy about them.
提醒一下，一个重要的是，这个帝国是一个非常奇特的、支离破碎的拼凑体。
And to remind people, an important point, the empire is a very strange fragmented patchwork.
因此，帝国对此事的干预能力必然有限，必须依赖地方统治者，对吧？
So the imperial authority to deal with this necessarily is limited and depends upon local rulers, doesn't it?
这一点在路德的故事中将至关重要。
And that will be really important in Luther's story.
对。
Right.
特别是皇帝病得很重，这意味着很可能很快就会举行帝国选举。
And in particular, the emperor is quite ill, and that means very likely there's going to be an imperial election very soon.
而这当然赋予了路德的保护者腓特烈巨大的权力。
And that, of course, gives an enormous power to Frederick, Luther's protector.
他是仅有的七位选帝侯之一。
He's one of only seven electors.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
但即便如此，教会别无选择，只能回应路德的挑战。
But even so, the church has no option but to respond to Luther's challenge.
这部分是因为在路德的抨击之后，赎罪券的销售似乎真的开始下滑。
And this is partly because it seems that the sale of indulgences really starts to fall off in the wake of Luther's attack.
但这也是因为路德把一份副本寄给了美因茨大主教阿尔布雷希特，而他正是引发整个问题的人。
But it's also because Luther has sent a copy to Albrecht, the archbishop of Mainz, who is the guy basically who's caused the whole problem.
是的。
Yeah.
他把信寄给直接相关的人，这真是太不寻常了。
Extraordinary that he sent it to the very person.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Yes.
这就像是有人在社交媒体上@你，把你曝光了一样。
It's like someone tagging you into a social media thing exposing you or something.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
于是阿尔布雷希特将它送往罗马，以求得一个权威裁决，你知道的，就是事情的核心所在。
And so Albrecht then sends it to Rome to get a kind of ruling, you know, in the in the the center of things.
传统上，教皇并不承认这是一场危机。
And the tradition is that the pope doesn't recognize, you know, that it's a crisis at all.
他只是觉得这不过是些修士在争吵。
He just thinks it's a load of monks squabbling.
这就像2010年一位政客高高在上地鄙视推特一样。
And it's kind of, you know, the lordly tone of a politician in 2010 turning his nose up at Twitter.
对。
Right.
说这无关紧要。
Saying it doesn't matter.
这不重要。
It's unimportant.
这些事都无关紧要。
Nothing on this matters.
是的
Yeah.
与此同时，回到德国，他们确实感受到了危机。
Meanwhile, back in Germany, they definitely have a sense of crisis.
因此，多明我会授予提策尔——那个兜售赎罪券的人——一个荣誉博士学位，以便他能与路德平起平坐，毕竟路德拥有博士学位。
So the Dominicans give Tetzel, the guy who's been flogging the indulgences, an honorary doctorate so that he can take on Luther as an equal because, of course, Luther has a doctorate.
他是个博士。
He's a doctor.
对
Yeah.
提策尔夸口说，获得博士学位后三周内，他就要把路德烧死在火刑柱上。
And Tetzel is boasting that within three weeks of his getting his doctorate, he will have Luther in the flames.
毫无疑问，路德身处危险之中。
And there's no question Luther is in danger.
但由于得到了腓特烈的支持，他基本上是安全的。
But because he has the backing of Frederick, basically, he's safe.
而且他还得到了你们知道的学生们的支持。
And he also has the backing of you know, we talked about the students.
学生们已经纷纷站出来支持他。
The students are already rallying behind him.
他们弄到了特策尔对路德的驳斥，并把它烧了。
They get hold of Tetzel's repudiation of Luther and burn it.
对。
Right.
所以这一切发生得非常早。
So this is happening very, very early on.
有趣的是，焚书将成为宗教改革的一个特点。
And it's interesting that book burning will be a feature of the reformation.
实际上，这是由改革者们率先开始的。
It actually begins with the reformers.
并不是教廷最先焚烧书籍。
It's not the papacy that is the first to burn books.
是的。
Yeah.
这很有趣。
That is interesting.
有趣的是，竟然是学生在烧书。
And it's interesting that a student's burning books.
我的意思是，还记得我们做纳粹系列时讨论过，纳粹的焚书行为是由学生和他们的讲师推动的，而不是由那些反对学生意愿的人主导的。
I mean, remember when we did the Nazi series and we talked about how Nazi book burnings are driven by students and their lecturers, not by people
是的。
Yeah.
违背学生的意愿。
Against the students' wishes.
而且再说一遍，我认为，你只要看看当今的世界就会意识到，学生们其实很享受这种行为。
Well, and again, I mean, I think that that you just have to look at the world today to realize that students quite enjoy.
是的。
Yeah.
如果不是烧书，那就是
If not burning books, then
禁止它们。
having them ban.
他们确实这么做了。
They do.
你知道，这当中有一种某种兴奋感。
You know, there is a kind of, you know, an excitement in it.
是的。
Yeah.
推翻传统结构等等。
Tearing down traditional structures and so on.
而且他还得到了越来越多教职员工的支持，嗯。
And he also has the backing of growing numbers of the faculty Mhmm.
在维滕贝格。
In Wittenberg.
所以有两个人将在他的故事中扮演关键角色。
So two particular will play key roles in his story.
一个是神学教授，同时也是大学的校长。
So one is the professor of theology who's also the chancellor of the university.
他叫安德烈亚斯·冯·卡尔施塔特。
He's a guy called Andreas von Kalstadt.
是的。
Yeah.
尽管他实际上比路德还小三岁，却曾授予路德博士学位。
And he had actually given Luther his doctorate even though he's actually three years younger than Luther.
还有一位年轻得多的学者，是希腊语教授菲利普·梅兰希通，年仅21岁。
And there's a much younger scholar who's the professor of Greek, Philip Melanthon, who's only 21.
所以这很像伊诺克·鲍威尔。
So quite Enoch Powell.
他就像伊诺克·鲍威尔。
He is like Enoch Powell.
他说话像伊诺克·鲍威尔吗？
Does he speak like Enoch Powell?
不。
No.
你会用你的伯明翰口音模仿他吗？
Are you gonna do him in your Birmingham accent?
不会。
No.
我不会。
I'm not.
我不会。
I'm not.
他改了自己的名字。
He'd renamed himself.
是的。
He did.
他的真名其实是施瓦策，意思是黑土，而黑土已经被翻译成希腊语。
His name is actually Schwarzer, which means black earth, and black earth has been translated into Greek.
是的。
Yeah.
这正是维滕贝格的教授们喜欢玩的把戏。
And this is this is very much the kind of jape that professors at
真的吗？
Really?
在维滕贝格的教授们喜欢玩这种把戏。
At Wittenberg like to get up to.
这算是一种恶作剧吗？
Does that count as a jape?
这不只是一种糟糕的做作吗？
Is that not just a a terrible affectation?
路德也这么做。
So Luther does it as well.
对。
Right.
所以路德的名字实际上是路德。
So Luther's name is actually Luther.
对。
Right.
但他觉得这还不够好。
But he he thinks this isn't good enough.
于是他自称Eleutherius，在希腊语中意为‘自由的人’。
So he calls himself Eleutherius, which in Greek means the freed one.
得了吧。
Oh, come on.
然后他又简化成了路德。
And he then makes more accessible as Luther.
汤姆，知道这些后，我对他的评价更低了。
I think less of him now, Tom, knowing that.
所以路德这个名字其实是个古典学者的笑话。
So Luther also is a kind of it's a classicist's joke.
对。
Right.
太精彩的对话了。
Great banter.
太精彩的对话了。
Great banter.
但路德是在表达一个严肃的观点，因为他声称自己是自由者。
But Luther is making a serious point because he's saying he's freed, the freed one.
那么他究竟从什么中获得了自由？
So what exactly has he been freed from?
所以他推测，路德认为自己从迷信、蒙昧、谬误以及对上帝之爱一无所知的黑暗中获得了自由。
So he thinks presumably he's been freed from superstition, obscurantism, error, the darkness of not knowing the love of God.
基本上就是这样，对吧？
Is that it, basically?
是的。
Yes.
于是他被召去参加奥古斯丁会的大会。
So he gets summoned to a chapter meeting of the Augustinians.
1518年4月，他作为一名奥古斯丁会修士，会议在海德堡举行。
He's an Augustinian monk in April 1518, and it's held in Heidelberg.
那可是一段相当远的路程。
So and it's quite a long way.
我们再次看到他在宣传上的娴熟手段。
Again, we see his mastery of publicity.
他一路步行前往。
He walks there.
对。
Right.
没错。
So Right.
所以，你知道，这实际上是在为自己吸引关注。
So, you know, that that's really drawing attention to himself.
他走到哪里都被当作绝对的名人对待。
And he's treated as an absolute celebrity everywhere he goes.
他一路上受到欢呼，到达海德堡后，当地的王子炫耀了他的小教堂和城堡，并邀请路德共进晚餐。
He's kind of cheered and he gets to Heidelberg and the the local prince shows off, you know, his chapel and his castle and invites Luther to dine with him.
所以这一切都太了不起了。
So it's all tremendous.
那么，汤姆，这一切是不是有点像乔丹·彼得森？
So, Tom, is there a slight Jordan Peterson side to all this?
是的。
Yes.
我觉得有一点。
A little bit, I think.
一位名人教授，是的。
A celebrity professor Yeah.
是谁说出了那些不可言说的事，你记得当初人们第一次报道乔丹·彼得森举办集会时的情形吗？
Who has said the unsayable and who has suddenly you know, do you remember how people first reported when Jordan Peterson was doing rallies and stuff?
人们会说，真不可思议，居然有人在谈论一些，是什么呢，某种
People would say it's amazing that somebody who's basically talking about, what is it, some sort
龙虾。
of lobsters.
荣格哲学之类的东西。
Jungian philosophy and stuff.
是的。
Yeah.
荣格哲学正在激励着年轻人。
And Jungian philosophy is inspiring young people.
你知道，这真是了不起。
You know, what a remarkable thing.
而且这是一样的
And it's the same
展开剩余字幕（还有 480 条）
没错。
Exactly.
如果你认为他所说的一些话，长期以来在大学里是不可言说的，那么路德在海德堡也在做类似的事情。
If you think that he is saying things that in universities for a long time have been unsayable, Luther is doing something similar at Heidelberg.
因此，他现在直接攻击了在拉丁西方盛行了数个世纪的神学基础。
So he is now directly attacking the foundations of the theology that has prevailed in the Latin West for centuries and centuries.
与认为通过亚里士多德所中介的理性能够让你理解上帝的观点相反，路德说理性实际上是个妓女。
So as opposed to the idea that reason, as mediated through Aristotle, enables you to understand God, Luther says that reason is actually a whore.
对。
Right.
他说哲学是一种幻觉，真正的基督徒只能是愚人。
He says that philosophy is a delusion, that the only true Christian is a fool.
他明确表示，除非教会法——即包含其规则和法令的教会法、经院神学、哲学和逻辑——被彻底废除并以其他学科取代，否则教会不可能得到改革。
He says out front, I believe it is impossible for the church to be reformed unless church law, so that's canon law, with its rules and decrees, scholastic theology, philosophy, and logic, as they are now taught, are eradicated and replaced by other studies.
我每天都在祈求主，尽快恢复对《圣经》和教父著作的纯粹研究。
Daily, I ask the lord that the pure study of the bible and the church fathers might be summoned back as soon as possible.
这就有点像乔丹·彼得森说性别研究全是胡扯。
So that is a bit like Jordan Peterson saying gender studies, it's all woo woo.
对。
Right.
你知道的，后殖民研究，全是废话。
You know, postcolonial studies, all nonsense.
咱们干脆把它们全都废除吧。
Let's get rid of it all.
咱们回到研究莎士比亚之类的吧。
Let's go back to to studying Shakespeare or whatever.
或者，就像那场辩论中另一方的人在攻击他们自己的学科。
Or it's like people on the other side of that particular debate attacking their own disciplines.
是的。
Yes.
不是吗？
Isn't it?
我的意思是，这非常流行，而且他们属于政治光谱的左翼，认为我们的整个学科都是殖民的。
I mean, that's very popular, and they're sort of on the left as where the political spectrum is saying, our whole discipline is colonial.
它被偏见所玷污。
It is tainted by prejudice.
让我们把它废除吧。
Let's get rid of it.
去殖民化盎格鲁-撒克逊研究之类的。
Decolonize Anglo Saxon studies or whatever.
是的。
Yes.
人们觉得这令人着迷。
And people find that intoxicating.
对。
Right.
路德是这两种传统的源头，这正是他如此迷人和重要的原因。
And Luther is the wellspring of both those traditions, and that's what makes him so fascinating and important.
所以路德确实是这两种思潮的真正源头。
So Luther is genuinely the place from which both those impulses come.
当然，他反过来借鉴了奥古斯丁，最终源自《圣经》。
Of course, he is in turn drawing on Augustine and ultimately on the bible.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
但这种表述方式是全新的。
But the framing of it is is new.
这正是如此令人兴奋和着迷的地方。
This is what is so thrilling and intoxicating.
是的。
Yeah.
而且这也很勇敢，因为他也在质疑教皇的权威。
And it's also very brave because he is also he's questioning authority of the papacy.
他在维滕贝格有一位同事。
And he has a colleague at Wittenberg.
他是法学教授，名叫希罗尼穆斯·舍尔夫，这名字真棒。
He's the professor of law, a guy called Hieronymus Scherff, brilliant name.
舍尔夫对路德说：教廷不会容忍这种行为，但路德毫不在意。
And Scherff says to Luther, you know, the papacy is not gonna stand for this, and Luther doesn't care.
嗯。
Mhmm.
那么，为什么路德毫不在意呢？
So why does Luther not care?
我认为这是一种智力上的兴奋感，但我认为更重要、更深刻的是，这一时刻对基督教历史产生了如此重要且变革性的影响，以至于他首次体验到这一时刻时，被称为‘宗教改革时刻’。
I think it is a sense of intellectual excitement, but I think it is also something much, much more really, really profound that is so important and so transformative on the history of Christianity that the moment when he supposedly first experiences it has been called the reformation moment.
为了更清楚地说明这一点，汤姆，他和我们今天所讨论的现代人之间的区别在于，如果他判断错了，他就会丧命。
And just to put that into context, Tom, the difference between him and the people we're talking about in the modern world is he will die if he gets this wrong and if he misjudges.
你知道，他的生命真的处于危险之中。
You know, he's in real danger for his life.
是的。
Right.
是的。
Yes.
所以我认为，要展现出这种勇气，必须拥有绝对的确定性，而正是这种改革时刻，我认为赋予了路德这种确定性。
So I think you have to have an absolute certitude to display that kind of courage, and it's this reformation moment, I think, that gives Luther that certitude.
但这一时刻是否真实存在，抑或是一个持续的过程，仍存在广泛争议。
But whether it is a moment or whether it is a continuous process is much debated.
但本质上，我们在第一集中看到，路德如何成为修士，并生活在对上帝审判的恐惧之中。
But, essentially, we saw in the first episode how Luther becomes a monk, and he lives in dread of God's judgment.
他说他憎恨上帝。
He says that he hates God.
对。
Yeah.
你知道，上帝注定要惩罚他，而他对此无能为力。
You know, God is is going to condemn him, and there's nothing he can do about it.
因此，这就是为什么他会节食、祈祷、连续数小时忏悔，诸如此类的事情。
And so this is why he's, you know, starving himself and praying and confessing for hours on end and all that kind of thing.
然后他作为教授开始研读《圣经》，并思考其内容。
And then he gets to study the Bible as a professor and to reflect on what it is saying.
他越这样做，就越意识到自己试图通过努力赢得上帝的宽恕都是徒劳的。
And the more he does this, so the more he comes to see all his, you know, attempt to earn liberation from God's condemnation as wasted effort.
而这一关键人物就是圣保罗。
And the key figure in this is Saint Paul.
没错。
Right.
在《新约》中，有他写的多封书信。
In the New Testament, there are a number of his letters.
这些是我们所拥有的最早的基督教文献。
They're the earliest texts that we have written by a Christian.
对于不知道圣保罗是谁的人，汤姆，他原本是个迫害基督徒的人，后来——
And for people who don't know who Saint Paul is, Tom, he's a boke who was persecuting the Christians and then Yes.
在前往大马士革的路上皈依了。
Converts on the road to Damascus.
对。
Right.
起初，保罗是一个法利赛人，他对圣经教导和摩西律法有着极深的造诣。
So initially, Paul is a Pharisee, so he's very, very learned in the scriptural teachings, in the law, the law that's been given to Moses.
是的。
Yeah.
但最终，这些并不能使他得救。
But it turns out that this is not what redeems him.
使他得救的，是那种如醍醐灌顶般的顿悟时刻，这被概括为‘大马士革之路’。
What redeems him is this kind of blinding moment that is is summed up in the phrase the road to Damascus.
他看见了复活的基督，因圣灵的降临而失明，这使他成为蒙拣选之人。
He has a vision of the risen Christ and is blinded by the descent on him of the spirit, and this marks him out as one of the elect.
当路德阅读保罗的著作时，他也被一种类似的神圣恩典意识所震撼——上帝拣选了他，爱着他。
And Luther, when he is reading Paul, he gets overwhelmed by a similar consciousness of divine grace that God has chosen and loves him.
路德谈到这一刻，说这种被上帝之爱洗涤的感觉，让我感觉自己完全重生，通过敞开的 gates 进入了天堂。
And Luther says of this moment, this feeling of being washed in the love of God, I felt I was altogether born again and had entered paradise itself through open gates.
重生这种观念影响深远。
That thing of being born again, so influential.
路德是第一个使用‘重生’这个说法的人吗？
Is Luther the first person to use that particular phrase, being born again?
还是说他是让这个说法广为流传的人？
Or is he the person who popularizes it, I should say?
我认为是他让这个说法流行起来的。
I think he popularizes it.
我的意思是，重生这个概念在《圣经》里就有。
I mean, the idea of being born again is in the Bible.
对。
Right.
洗礼就赋予你重生。
That is what baptism gives you.
但我觉得，你能有这样一个明确的时刻并确信它，这才是新的地方。
But I think the idea that you can have this moment and be sure of it so this is what's new.
所以亚历克·雷里，他在理解这一改革时刻为何如此重要方面非常出色。
So Alec Reyrie, who is brilliant on this, on what it is that makes this reformation moment so important.
他说，路德的神学并不是一种教义。
He says that Luther theology was not a doctrine.
而是一场爱的邂逅。
It was a love affair.
所以这并不是关于抽象地归纳神学原则。
So it's not about drawing abstract theological principles.
对。
Right.
而是关于表达一种情感，一种强烈而深沉的爱。
It's about articulating a feeling, a kind of an an an intensity of love.
长期以来，路德一直担心自己不配得到上帝的爱，担心自己会被上帝的公义审判，认为上帝憎恨他，直到他突然意识到：上帝爱他，而且这种爱超越了那些‘你做了这件事，所以你必须付出代价，你将在炼狱中待多久’之类的规则。
So all the time that Luther had kind of been dreading that he was unworthy of God's love, that he would be condemned by God's justice, that God hates him, This realization suddenly that God loves him and that God loves him in a way that transcends rubrics of you've done this, and therefore you have to pay this penalty, and you'll be in purgatory this long.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这根本不是重点。
That's not what it's about at all.
这是完全的。
It's total.
它有种令人陶醉的感觉。
It's kind of intoxicating.
它超越了理性。
It's beyond reason.
我认为，这种领悟对路德而言，部分源于一种心理上的冲动——在试图向上帝证明自己却始终感到痛苦时，对这种爱的深切渴望。
And it comes to Luther, I think, partly through kind of psychological impulses, a kind of yearning for this love in the face of all the unhappiness that he's been feeling in trying to kind of justify himself to God.
但正如我所说，它也来自对保罗著作的阅读，尤其是其中一句话。
But as I say, it also comes from reading Paul, and it particularly one line.
保罗写给教会基督徒的信中，有一段话，就是《罗马书》。
So there's a line in the letter that Paul writes to the Christians in the church, the letter to the Romans.
义人必因信得生。
The righteous shall live through faith.
嗯。
Mhmm.
路德理解这句话的意思是，信仰特指上帝爱你，而不管你是否沉溺于罪中。
And Luther understands this to mean the faith specifically that God loves you and that it doesn't matter if you're lost to sin.
每个人都沉溺于罪中。
Everyone is lost to sin.
人类如此堕落，以至于无法凭借自身的力量获得上帝的宽恕。
Humanity is so sinful that they can't, through their own agency, obtain the forgiveness of God.
但这无关紧要，因为如果上帝爱你，你就处于恩典之中。
But it doesn't matter because if God loves you, then you exist in a state of grace.
而恩典的状态就是你感受到基督存在于你内心深处，嗯。
And the state of grace is the feeling that you have that Christ is present in you Mhmm.
在你最隐秘的心灵深处。
In your secret most heart.
而这种恩典的确信，反过来赋予路德所说的良知之平安，让你对是否得救的所有焦虑都烟消云散。
And the certainty of that grace in turn gives you what Luther calls the peace of conscience, that all your anxiety about whether you're going to be redeemed or not is gone.
因此，你可以拥有一种深刻而深远的精神喜悦与确信感，这种确信感从根本上斩断了所有关于炼狱、告解以及我是否能得救的纠结。
And so you can have a kind of deep, profound spiritual joy and sense of certitude that essentially cuts the Gordian knot of all the purgatory stuff, all the confession stuff, all the am I going to go to heaven or not.
这是一个令人惊叹的时刻，我意思是，它提供了一种神学上的正当性，但更重要的是，我认为它提供了一种情感上的正当性，是的。
And it's an incredible I mean, it's a really, really kind of profound moment because it provides both a theological, but more importantly, I think an emotional justification Yeah.
为摒弃所有关于炼狱、神职人员和朝圣之类的东西提供了理由。
For getting rid of all the purgatory and clergy and pilgrimage and all that kind of stuff.
这不仅仅是那些东西是错误的。
And it's not just that that stuff is wrong.
它们实际上是罪恶的，因为它们阻断了基督徒对上帝之爱的正确认识。
It's positively sinful because it's blocking off a proper understanding to the Christian people of God's love.
因此，这就是为什么路德强调每个基督徒在上帝面前的孤独性。
And so this is why Luther emphasizes the loneliness of the individual Christian before God.
只有你独自面对圣经，面对信仰。
It is you alone with scripture, with faith.
你不需要任何其他东西。
You don't need anything else.
好的。
Okay.
所以，汤姆，有两点。
So two things, Tom.
第一，如果真是这样，那这岂不是成了一个巨大的借口？你知道的，你不必为自己的罪恶感到内疚，因为上帝爱你，人人都有罪。
Number one, if this is the case, why isn't this just a massive get out for, you know, you don't have to feel bad about your sins and stuff because God loves you, everyone's sinful.
你知道吗？
You know what?
人人都有罪。
Everybody is sinful.
这个世界是有罪的。
The world is sinful.
而真正重要的是，上帝爱你。
And the thing is all that matters is that God loves you.
所以尽管去做吧，尽情享受吧。
So crack on, you know, fill your boots.
这是伟大的争论，
This is the great debate,
这也是对这种新教选民观念的主要批评。
and this is the great criticism of that kind of protestant sense of election.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，你把你的
I mean, you you put your
一针见血地指出来了。
finger on it immediately.
其次，谈到二十世纪二十年代，无论持何种立场，一些人对某些激进分子那种大写的热情所提出的批评是，他们充满了自我正义感。
Secondly, what I would say, thinking about the twenty twenties, a criticism that some people would have of the capital e enthusiasm of some activists no matter what side they're on is the tremendous sense of being puffed up with their own righteousness.
你知道，那种我们这些更怀疑的人觉得如此令人反感的确定性。
You know, the certainty that some of us, more skeptical, find so obnoxious.
路德难道没有意识到，其他人会如何看待他的道德确定性、他那种得救的优越感吗？瞧瞧我。
Is Luther not conscious that other people will find his moral certainty, his sense of being saved, oh, look at me.
上帝爱我。
God loves me.
这难道不精彩吗？
Isn't that brilliant?
不。
No.
他不爱，因为他正处于一段恋情中。
He doesn't because he's in a love affair.
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
他正处于一段恋情中。
He's in a love affair.
当你陷入恋情时，根本不在乎别人怎么想。
And when you're in a love affair, you don't care what other people think.
你只关心你爱的那个人。
You only care about the person you're in love with.
我的意思是，我认为这就是全部了。
I mean, I think that that is it.
是的。
Yeah.
因为，当然，体制上的批评会说，这一切都只关乎你，不是吗？
Because, of course, the institutional criticism would be, it's all about you, isn't it?
对。
Right.
这非常自我中心。
This is very narcissistic.
嗯，确实如此。
Well, it is.
但另一方面，我认为这之所以重要，是因为它确实影响了此后几个世纪中出现的各种思想潮流。
But it also I mean, again, I think this is why it matters because it does feed into all kinds of intellectual trends that will emerge over the course of of the centuries that follow.
所以，再次引用罗里的说法，这个理念最初的影响就像达尔文主义或马克思主义在其时代那样。
So, again, to quote Rory, the idea's initial impact was like that of Darwinism or Marxism in their own times.
这是一个以前没有人以如此方式思考过的概念，但一旦人们理解了它，许多人就觉得它显然是正确的。
It was a concept that no one had thought of in quite those terms before, but that seemed to many people once they had grasped it to be self evidently true.
所以，这不仅仅是路德的问题。
So it's not just Luther.
我的意思是，还有其他人也是如此。
I mean, it's other people as well.
一旦他们拥有了这种体验，就能分享这份爱。
Once they have this, then they can share in the love.
但当然，这颠覆了基督教世界中每个人都是基督徒这一观念。
But, of course, it kind of turns on its head the notion that everyone in Christendom is a Christian.
因为路德基本上是在说，你必须感受到上帝爱你，你已重生，你已进入天堂之门，否则你就不是真正的基督徒。
Because what Luther is saying basically is that you have to have this feeling that God loves you, that you've been born again, that you've entered the gates of paradise, or you're not really a Christian.
是的。
Yeah.
因此，这反过来意味着只有极少数被选中的人才能得救。
So the implication in turn of that is that only a tiny elect really are going to be saved.
尽管路德相信对上帝的认知铭刻在每个人的灵魂中，但他说的‘信仰’是指你对自己已被赐予救赎抱有绝对的信念。
And although Luther does believe that the knowledge of God is imprinted on the soul of every human being, I mean, what he would call belief is the idea that you have an absolute conviction that your salvation has been granted to you.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
而这种信仰，当然，是一种罕见得多的绽放。
And this, of course, is a much, you know, it's a much rarer bloom.
因此，路德基本上认为，也许每千人中只有一人能称得上是真正的基督徒。
And so he basically, Luther ends up saying that maybe only one in a thousand people rank as a Christian, a true Christian.
你知道他该说其他人是什么吗，汤姆？
Do you know what he should say that the other people are, Tom?
我对这个非常满意。
I'm very pleased with this.
这非常像一种信任的行为。
It's very it's trust like behavior.
他应该称他们为名义上的基督徒。
He should call them chinos, Christians in name only.
非常好。
Very good.
我喜欢这个说法。
I do like that.
是的。
Yeah.
太棒了。
Excellent.
当然，这意味着，比如说，你生活在一个新教国家或新教社区里，你不能只是随波逐流。
And, of course, the implication in turn of that is that, say, you live in a Protestant country, you know, a Protestant community, you can't just coast.
我的意思是，你必须去思考自己相信什么。
I mean, you have to you have to work out what you believe.
信仰这件事，变成了你个人的责任。
The job of believing becomes something that is personal to you.
你不能把信仰完全留给专业的基督徒。
You can't just leave it to the professional Christians.
是的。
Yeah.
这关乎你的真相。
It's about your truth.
对吧？
Right?
这关乎活出你的真相。
It's about living your truth.
是的。
Yes.
活出你的真相。
Living your truth.
这就是'活出你的真相'这一理念的由来。
This is where the idea of living your truth comes from.
当然，这种长期的张力会导致无神论和不信，同时也导致对上帝的信仰，因为你可能只是觉得这种压力太大了。
And, of course, the reason why this breeds in the long run atheism and unbelief as well as belief in God is that you may just feel the strain is too great.
你知道，你努力去相信，但却做不到。
You know, you you're trying to believe and you don't.
所以，我认为这正是路德成为西方出现的无神论的源头的原因。
So, again, I think this is why Luther stands at the head of the atheism that emerges in in the West.
但部分原因在于，无神论依然全部围绕着你自身。
But partly because the atheism is all about you again.
就像是，你怎么看？
It's like, what do you think?
没错。
Exactly.
它忽视了传统和所有那些东西。
It's ignoring tradition and all that stuff.
因此，这就是为什么人文主义者明显是路德的后继者。
And so that's why, you know, humanists are patently the descendants of Luther.
他们的真相是，他们不相信，但这种不相信是以一种非常路德宗的方式进行的。
Their truth is that they don't believe, but they don't believe in a very Lutheran way.
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这就是为什么我认为这真的很重要。
So that's why I think it really matters.
基本上，我们今天所理解的‘信仰’这一概念，正是在这里诞生的。
That basically belief in the the sense that we today understand belief is being born here.
由于我们对此已经习以为常，因此没有意识到这种变化有多么深刻。
And because we're so habituated to it, we don't recognize how profound change is.
对。
Yeah.
我们看不到它。
We don't see it.
我的意思是，我会用'个人主义'这个词。
I mean, the word I would use is individualism.
你基本上是在说，对吧？
You're basically saying, are you not?
在路德之前，宗教信仰的概念是集体性的，你确实应该相信。
That pre Luther, the idea of religious belief was collective, that you really ought to believe.
大多数人根本不会考虑自己内心的想法，因为他们只是默认要随大流。
And most people what they personally thought didn't occur to them, most people, because they just assumed you would go along with what everybody else said.
对大多数人来说。
To most.
是的。
Yeah.
正是路德提出了或普及了这样的观念：你与宗教世界的关系必须是个人化的。
And it's Luther who invents the idea or popularizes the idea that your relationship with the world of religion must be a personal one.
所以当人们说，我不确定自己是否相信上帝，但我有个人的灵性之类的
And so when people say, well, I don't know whether I believe in God, but I have a personal spirituality or whatever
是的。
Yeah.
那就是路德宗的观点。
That's Lutheran.
因为在他之前，没人会这么想。
Because before him, no one would have ever thought to say that.
对吗？
Is that right?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，回到新冠疫情的类比，当时我们说，在疫情期间，大多数人乐于依赖流行病学家来告诉他们该怎么做。
I mean, to go back to the the COVID analogy where we're saying that that in the pandemic, most people were content to rely on the epidemiologists to, you know, basically kind of tell them what to do.
是的。
Yeah.
他们没有理由去怀疑或不相信他们所说的话。
They had no reason to doubt it, to unbelieve what they were saying.
现在的情况就像是，在新冠疫情期间，疫苗只对那些绝对且坚定不移地相信它们有效的人都有效。
Now it's as though, say, during COVID, the vaccines will only work on those who absolutely and unshakably believe that they will work.
我的意思是，这就是转变，这种变化。
I mean, that's that's the shift, the change.
但我想，如果你和一群朋友见面，他们每个人都会说，我对新冠有自己的非常个人化的信念。
But, also, I guess, the idea that if you met with a group of friends, each of them would say, well, I have my own very personal beliefs about COVID.
我的意思是，没人会这么说。
I mean, no one would say that.
这么说会很疯狂。
It'd be a mad thing to say.
从长远来看，这是个问题，但路德在这个时候并没有意识到这一点。
And so this in the long run is the problem, but Luther doesn't recognize it at this point.
好的。
Okay.
因为他认为只有一种理解方式。
Because he thinks that there is only one way of understanding it.
对。
Right.
我认为他将其描绘为一个单一的顿悟时刻，一个宗教改革的时刻。
And he frames it, I think, as a single blinding moment, a reformation moment.
因为从某种意义上说，这确实让它变得更个人化。
Because in a way, that does make it more personal.
这意味着，与其说这是他经过长时间思考得出的结论，不如说是一个突如其来的启示，让他真正理解了上帝。
It does imply that rather than something that he's worked out over a long period of time, it's a single blinding moment of revelation that enables him properly to understand God.
人们不是称它为他的‘塔中体验’吗？
And don't people call it his tower experience?
比如，他当时被关在塔里，一直在思考之类的事情。
Like, he was shut up in a tower thinking about it or something.
是的。
Yeah.
因此，他在后来的生活中对这个顿悟时刻的由来给出了多种说法。
So he gives a a range of accounts of how he came by this moment later in life.
所以其中一个场景，他在粪坑里，也就是厕所。
So one of them, he's he's in the cloaca, so the shitter.
所以，你知道的，我们在上一集已经讨论过这个了。
And so, you know, we've talked about this in the previous episode.
汤姆，要是我每听你说一次就花一英镑的话，
Tom, if I had a flipping pound for every time you you
所以他是在马桶上。
So he's on the toilet.
对。
Right.
他在那里所做的，是把魔鬼的维度——也就是粪便和污秽——归于上帝。
And what he's doing there is that he is appropriating the dimension of the devil, I e excrement and and filth Mhmm.
归于上帝。
To God.
好的。
Okay.
你知道吗，他晚年时会说，再次向在座的听众道歉。
You know, later in life, he will say and, again, you know, apologies to people listening.
但当他宣认对基督的信仰时，他会说：如果这还不够，魔鬼，你听着，我甚至还拉过屎、撒过尿。
But when he avows his faith in Christ, he says, if that is not enough for you, you devil, addressing Satan, I have also shat and pissed.
用这个擦擦嘴，狠狠咬一口吧。
Wipe your mouth on that and take a hearty bite of it.
如今你再也听不到神学家们说这种话了，对吧？
You don't hear that from any theologians these days, do you?
但本质上，他想说的是，就连撒旦的领域，基督也存在于那里。
But, essentially, what he's saying is that even the dimension of Satan, Christ is to be found there.
基督能够净化一切。
Christ can can purify everything.
但你说得对。
But you're right.
他提到的另一个著名经历是，他在维滕贝格修道院的一座塔楼里。
The other famous account he gives is that he's in a tower in the monastery at Wittenberg.
你觉得他是比喻这么说的吗？
And do you think he means that metaphorically?
这个问题争议很大。
It's so debated.
我想我们永远也不会知道。
I don't think we'll ever know.
好吧。
Okay.
而且，再说一次，他还提供了各种关于这件事发生时间的说法。
And, I mean, again, he also gives various accounts as to when it happens.
所以他明确提到了1519年这个日期。
So he specifically gives the date of 1519.
也就是说，这发生在95条论纲发表两年之后。
So that's two years after the 95 theses have gone up.
所以理查德·雷克斯在他的书中认为，这件事发生在1518年初，也就是他张贴论纲之后不久，这个观点非常有说服力。
So Richard Rex in his book, I think, very convincingly argues that it happened early in 1518, so just after he's put it up.
我认为这正是赋予他勇气去反抗教廷的原因。
And I think that this is what gives him the courage to do what he does, to defy the papacy.
是的。
Yeah.
因为在1518年，罗马方面认定这些观点是异端。
Because in the 1518, Rome concludes that they are heretical.
8月7日，消息传到维滕贝格的路德那里，称他被召往罗马，他知道这是一次很可能导致他被烧死在火刑柱上的召唤。
And on the August 7, news reaches Luther in Wittenberg that he is summoned to Rome, and he knows that this is a summons that is likely to end up with him being burned at the stake.
路德正面临死亡。
Luther is facing certain death.
还是说，并非如此？
Or is he?
广告后回来，了解他的命运如何发展。
Return after the break to find out what happens to him.
教廷通过当地大主教收到的95条论纲，经过八个月的思考，最终在1518年8月宣布这些观点确实属于异端。
The papacy, sent the 95 theses by the local archbishop, had pondered them for eight months before finally pronouncing in August 1518 that they were indeed heretical.
这位作者已被召至罗马，但这一举动非但未能平息事态，反而进一步点燃了火势。
The author had been summoned to Rome, yet this far from settling the matter served only to stoke the flames further.
早在维滕贝格，当地宗教裁判官的著作已在广场上被公开焚烧。
Already in Wittenberg, writings by the local inquisitor had been ceremonially burnt in the market square.
凯塔坦在奥格斯堡的住所密切关注事态发展，担心这场争议的野火正日益失控。
Kayatan, tracking events from his residence in Augsburg, fretted that the bushfires of controversy were increasingly out of control.
作为教皇特使，他有紧急责任将这些火苗扑灭。
As papal legate, it was his urgent responsibility to stamp them out.
他认定，最理想、最符合基督教精神的方式，就是召见这位撰写95条论纲的麻烦制造者到奥格斯堡，亲自劝说他悔改。
The best and most Christian way to do this, he decided, was to summon the troublesome author of the 95 theses to Augsburg and persuade him in person to recant.
凯塔坦严肃、博学且虔诚，就连那些通常对宗教裁判官心存戒备的人，也相信他值得信赖。
Austere, learned, and devout, Khayatan was a man whom even those normally suspicious of inquisitors knew that they could trust.
他的邀请得到了正式接受。
His invitation was duly accepted.
1518年7月10日，马丁·路德抵达奥格斯堡。
On the 10/07/1518, Martin Luther arrived in Augsburg.
所以，汤姆，这正是丹·布朗或汤姆·霍兰德的著作《主宰》中，那个被斥为异端的路德，与一位教会王子、一位枢机主教面对面的时刻。
So this is the moment, Tom, from Dan Brown or Tom Holland's book, Dominion, your own book, when Luther, a man whose writings have been condemned as heretical, comes face to face with a prince of the church, an inquisitor And a cardinal.
是的。
Yeah.
他掌握着路德的生杀大权。
Who has the power over him.
不是吗？
Does he not?
我的意思是，路德的性命此时悬于一线。
I mean, Luther's life hangs in the balance here.
这样说太夸张了吗？
Is that too strong?
是的。
Yeah.
哦，汤姆。
Oh, Tom.
因为本质上，路德已经获得了安全通行权。
Because, basically, Luther has been given safe passage.
是的。
Yeah.
但没错，从长远来看，绝对是这样。
But, yeah, I mean, in the long run, absolutely.
我的意思是，这涉及极其重大的利益。
I mean, this is incredibly high stakes.
尤其是因为佩坦在许多方面都体现了路德所拒绝的一切。
And particularly because Pehtan, in so many ways, is the embodiment of everything that Luther is rejecting.
所以他一生致力于研究路德所摒弃的各种哲学和中世纪对上帝的理解。
So he is someone who's devoted his life to the study of all kind of the the philosophy and and the medieval understanding of God that Luther is rejecting.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但他绝对是个非常了不起的人。
But he is absolutely I mean, he's a very impressive man.
非常严肃，非常有道德。
Very serious, very moral.
他实际上是多明我会的会长。
He's actually head of the Dominicans.
虽然我们一直把多明我会塑造成这个故事中的反派，但你知道，特策尔就是多明我会的人。
And although we've been framing the Dominicans as the baddies in this story, you know, Tetzel is a Dominican.
对。
Right.
当然，其他地方的多明我会士表现得非常好。
Of course, the Dominicans elsewhere are behaving very well.
所以我们觉得这是节目的朋友，巴托洛梅·德·拉斯卡萨斯，嗯。
So we we think a friend of the show, Bartolome de las Casas Mhmm.
那位在新大陆为印第安人争取权利的多明我会士，他就这么称呼他们。
The Dominican in the new world who is standing up for the rights of the Indians, as he would call them, out there.
是的。
Yeah.
凯莱廷对听到的关于西班牙人在新世界行为的描述感到震惊。
And Quelletin is appalled by what he's being told about how the Spanish are behaving in the New World.
他实际上见到了那位西班牙人，并对他说：你难道不怀疑你的国王正在地狱里吗？
And he actually meets the Spaniard, and he says to him, do you not doubt that your king is in hell?
没错。
Correct.
所以他是个道德上令人钦佩的人。
So he is he's a morally impressive man.
他不是你那些腐败的红衣主教。
He's not one of your corrupt cardinals.
他不是那种毒害修道院的阴险邪恶的红衣主教。
He's not a sinister evil cardinal, the kind that poisons a nunnery.
而且他是意大利人。
And he's an Italian.
对吧？
Right?
他来自加埃塔，因此得名。
He's from Gaeta, hence the name.
是的。
Yeah.
所以他的名字由此而来。
So hence his name.
是的。
Yeah.
他的真名是托马索·德·维奥，他以中世纪最伟大的神学家托马斯·阿奎那为名，自称托马索。
So his real name is Tommaso de Vio, and he names himself Tommaso after Thomas Aquinas, who is the greatest of the medieval theologians.
是的。
Yeah.
亚里士多德的追随者。
Devotee of Aristotle.
也是路德憎恨的人。
And the guy that Luther hates.
而路德特别憎恨的那个人。
And the person who Luther particularly hates.
当然。
Absolutely.
但他不仅是一位神职人员，还是一位极其出色的外交家，尽管他四处侮辱西班牙国王。
But as well as being a churchman, he's also a very, very skillful diplomat despite the fact he goes around insulting the Spanish king.
因此，他被派往奥格斯堡，并非专门去见路德，而是试图协调一场针对土耳其人的十字军东征，因为土耳其人此时正大举进军巴尔干地区。
And so he's been sent to Augsburg not specifically to meet Luther, but to try and coordinate a crusade against the Turks who are starting to really move into the Balkans at this point.
这很有趣，不是吗？
So this is fascinating, isn't it?
所以我们上一次，或者几集之前，谈到了奥斯曼人在1453年攻占君士坦丁堡，那是一个令人难以置信的震撼时刻，是的。
So we talked last time, didn't we, or a couple of episodes ago about how the Ottomans had captured Constantinople in 1453, an absolutely unbelievably shocking moment Yeah.
对于基督教世界而言。
For Christendom.
所以他们在1516年占领了阿尔及尔。
So they take Algiers in 1516.
他们正在逐渐蔓延至地中海，但将在1521年攻占贝尔格莱德。
They're sort of spreading through the Mediterranean, but they're gonna capture Belgrade in 1521.
是的。
Yeah.
因此，他们正在这个夏天为进攻贝尔格莱德做大规模准备。
So they're preparing for a big campaign against Belgrade this very summer.
五年后，他们彻底击溃了匈牙利。
Then they crush Hungary five years later.
是的。
Yeah.
到了1520年代末，他们将兵临维也纳城下。
And then by the end of the fifteen twenties, they are going to be at the gates of Vienna.
因此，实际上已经逼近德国边境。
So, really, within striking distance of Germany.
对。
Yes.
我的意思是
I mean
是的
yeah.
而且别忘了我们之前谈过伊斯恩贝格的修士约翰·希尔顿，路德上学时他就在那里，据说他用自己的血写下了预言。
And and remember that we talked about Johann Hilton, the monk in Isenberg where Luther was at school who, you know, he supposedly wrote prophecies in his own blood.
他预言德国将被土耳其人征服，这将预示着末日的来临。
And he had prophesied that Germany would be conquered by the Turks and that this would herald the coming of the apocalypse.
现在，哈亚特·汗完全反对这种说法。
Now Khayyat Han is absolutely against this.
教廷也不赞同末日即将来临的观点。
The papacy is not in favor of the idea that the apocalypse is threatening.
事实上，1513年，罗马拉特兰宫的一次大公会议明确禁止宣讲敌基督即将降临。
And in fact, in 1513, a council in the Lateran Palace in Rome had specifically prohibited preaching the imminence of the Antichrist.
但路德对此却极为热衷，尤其是因为这位预言修士希尔顿曾预示一位伟大的先知将在1516年出现，而1516年离1517年如此之近，让路德不由得想到
But, of course, Luther is all over this, not least because Hilton, this prophetic monk, had foretold that a a great prophet would emerge in 1516, which is close enough to 1517 for Luther to think
那他可能就是那个预言中的人。
that it might actually be him.
关于末日这个话题，汤姆，你和我都清楚，所有听这个节目的人都知道，奥斯曼帝国并没有进入中欧和西欧。
And just on that apocalyptic thing, Tom, you and I know and everyone listening to this knows that the Ottomans didn't get into Central And Western Europe.
他们没有越过匈牙利。
Well, they didn't get beyond Hungary.
他们没有占领维也纳。
They didn't take Vienna.
他们没有进入德国。
They didn't get into Germany.
但当时没有人知道这些。
But nobody knows that then.
我的意思是，整个路德的故事只有在人们认为这个社会正面临迫在眉睫的入侵和占领时才有意义，是的。
I mean, the whole Luther story surely only makes sense if you think that this is a society that thinks it is facing imminent invasion, occupation Yeah.
基督教被彻底消灭，等等。
The stamping out of Christianity, whatever.
整个故事中弥漫着一种令人难以置信的末日般的恐惧。
That there's this incredible sense of existential dread that hangs over the whole story.
是的。
Yeah.
这确实束缚了科约廷应对路德的手脚，因为我们提到过，皇帝马克西米利安正在衰弱，他希望确保他的孙子查理能继承帝位。
And this really ties Coyotin's hands in dealing with Luther because we mentioned that the emperor Maximilian is fading, and he wants to ensure that his grandson, Charles, will succeed him as emperor.
这显然赋予了路德的保护者兼选帝侯弗雷德里克巨大的权力。
And this obviously gives enormous power to Frederick, Luther's defender and protector, as an elector.
是的。
Yeah.
因为哈布斯堡家族继承帝位并不是板上钉钉的事。
Because it's not a done deal that a Habsburg will succeed.
也可能是别人。
It could be somebody else.
不。
No.
这还不是板上钉钉的事。
It's not a done deal.
我认为关键在于查理希望获得一致选举支持。
I think the key thing is is that Charles wants to be elected unanimously.
对。
Right.
而弗雷德里克一直秘而不宣，没有透露他会投给谁。
And Frederick is keeping his cards close to his chest and not saying who he is going to vote for.
因此，如果凯坦想组建一个统一阵线对抗土耳其人，他就不能得罪弗雷德里克。
And so that means that Caetan, if he's to get a kind of united front against the Turks, he can't afford to alienate Frederick.
而这正是弗雷德里克能够说服凯坦在奥格斯堡会见路德，而不是将他押往罗马的原因。
And, you know, this is why Frederick is able to persuade Caetan to meet Luther in Augsburg rather than have him sent to Rome.
对。
Right.
再次说明，路德在这事上非常幸运。
Again, Luther is very, very lucky about this.
所以他很幸运，但当然，他也拥有这种非凡的能力，能够抓住公众的注意力。
So he's lucky, but, of course, he also you know, he has this incredible ability to seize the limelight.
于是，他再次徒步前往奥格斯堡，装出一副谦卑的上帝仆人模样。
And so, again, he goes to Augsburg on foot, kind of playing the humble man of God
对。
Right.
与凯塔南作为教会王子般的奢华排场形成鲜明对比。
As opposed to the splendor and pomp of Caetan as a kind of prince of the church.
凯亚特·汉非常温和地接待了他。
Khayyat Han welcomes him very gently.
他扮演着父亲对儿子说话的角色，试图劝说他认识到自己的错误。
He's kinda playing the part of a father speaking to a son, trying to persuade him of the error of his ways.
但他们进行了三次会面，随着会面的进行，凯亚特·汉越来越失控。
But they have three meetings, after the course of the meetings, Khayyat Han loses it more and more.
他变得越来越生气。
He gets more and more cross.
他的声音越来越高，因为他很快意识到，真正关键的不是那95条论纲的细节。
His voice goes up higher and higher because he realizes very, very quickly that what's at stake is not the details of the 95 theses.
本质上，这是关于谁在基督教世界拥有权威的问题。
It's about, essentially, who has authority in the Christian world.
对凯坦来说，谁拥有权威显而易见。
And to Kirtan, it seems self evident who does.
是教会。
It's the church.
是天主教会。
It's the Catholic church.
一直以来都是如此。
It always has done.
将来也永远会是。
It always will.
我的意思是，质疑这一点是不可想象的。
I mean, to question that is just unspeakable.
但路德正在质疑这一点。
But Luther is questioning that.
他质疑教皇权威。
He's questioning the papacy.
他质疑教会法。
He's questioning canon law.
他质疑所有源自亚里士多德的哲学，全部都质疑。
He's questioning, you know, all the philosophy derived from Aristotle, all of it.
路德主张，真正重要的是《圣经》，即‘唯独圣经’。
And Luther is arguing that all that really matters is the bible, sola scriptura, scripture alone.
是的。
Yeah.
他对凯坦说，教皇并不高于上帝的话语，而是服从于它。
And he says to Chaitan, the pope is not above but under the word of god.
凯顿无法相信这一点。
And Caetton can't believe it.
他无法相信，自己竟然在与一个默默无闻的修士辩论，而这个修士却坚持自己的观点，拒绝接受教会教义的权威性。
He can't believe that he is arguing with this obscure monk who is making this case and refusing to accept the majesty of the teachings of the church.
所以，用你之前在播客系列中用过的类比来说，这就相当于一位极其杰出的科学家——世界顶尖的科学家之一——突然发现自己必须与一个不仅在声望上远不及他、而且还说‘我不相信你们的科学’的人辩论，这个人正在从根本上拆解科学，声称他不接受这位科学家及其同行们视为理所当然的一切。
So to use an analogy that you've used previously in the podcast in the series, it is the equivalent of an incredibly distinguished scientist, you know, one of the world's great scientists, suddenly finding that he's got to have a debate with somebody who not merely doesn't come anywhere near him in eminence, but says, I don't really believe in your science, and is kinda ripping it down to the foundations and saying he doesn't accept everything that that scientist and his colleagues take for granted.
但我认为区别在于，这位反对教授的人至少具备基本的知识基础，能够论证自己的观点，而路德却说：‘你来反驳我吧。’
But I suppose the difference would be that this person who's opposing the professor would have a basic grounding that would enable him to argue his case because Luther is saying, you know, disprove me.
去读《圣经》，向我证明教皇为何该有这些权力，或者亚里士多德的哪些观点是正确的，等等。
Go to the Bible and prove to me that the pope should have this and that Aristotle is right on that or whatever.
是的。
Yeah.
这对他来说是个问题。
And that's a problem for him.
对吧？
Right?
这确实是个问题。
That is a problem.
凯坦回应说，是的。
And Khaitan comes back and says, yes.
但这正是教会的庄严所在。
But this is, you know, this is the majesty of the church.
这是传统。
This is tradition.
我代表了它。
I embody it.
路德说，对我来说，我的良知比你所说的更重要。
And Luther says, you know, my conscience is more important to me than what you're saying.
是的。
Yeah.
而他在这里为良知发声，是的。
And here he is making the plea for conscience Yeah.
这再次体现了现代西方人理解自身行为基础的核心所在。
Which again is so important to the way that I think people in the modern West understand the basis for what they do.
是的
Yeah.
你知道，他们的道德基础。
You know, their moral underpinnings.
但同样，正是路德迈出了这一步，将良知置于比其他任何事物都更重要的位置。
But again, it is Luther who is taking this step and foregrounding conscience as something that is more important than anything else really.
嗯。
Mhmm.
因此你可以理解为什么凯塔克彻底发火，让路德离开。
And so you can see why Ketak completely loses his his rag and tells Luther to go away.
所以，你知道，只有当你准备悔改时才能回来，而路德并没有。
And so, you know, only come back if you, if you're prepared to recant, and Luther isn't.
于是，施陶皮茨——德国奥古斯丁修会的负责人，正是他当初任命路德为维滕贝格大学教授——解除了路德的修道誓言。
And so what happens is that Staupitz, who is the head of the Augustinians in Germany, the guy who'd originally made Luther a professor at Wittenberg, he releases Luther from his vows.
这意味着他不再是奥古斯丁修会的一员。
And so that means he's no longer part of the Augustinians.
因此，路德现在感到自己是孤独的，但对路德来说，孤独是一种解放。
And so Luther is now you know, he feels he's alone, but to be alone for Luther is liberating.
它让你更接近上帝。
It brings you closer to God.
于是，他通过写下两封极其无礼的信来表达他对上帝的爱，一封寄给考特，另一封寄给教皇。
And so he he displays his love of God by writing two unbelievably rude letters, one that he sends to Caerton, one to the pope.
然后，他翻越了奥格斯堡的城墙，逃回了维滕贝格。
And then he he clambers over the the city walls of Augsburg, and he scarpers back to Wittenberg.
所以他已经被逐出奥古斯丁会了。
So he's been kicked out of the Augustinians.
这是否实际上就是发生的事情？
Is that effectively what's happened?
我认为这是一次双方同意的分离。
I think it's been a mutually agreed separation.
明白了。
Right.
因为斯塔尔皮茨觉得，我不需要这种麻烦。
Because Stalpitz thinks, I don't need this hassle.
你知道，这太丢脸了。
You know, this is embarrassing.
是的。
Yeah.
他不希望自己的修会和他自己个人被卷入这场纷乱之中。
He doesn't want his order and himself personally to be dragged down into the kind of the magic mix of all this stuff that's going on.
对。
Right.
我认为，马丁，为了修会的声誉，最好……但是，
I think it would be best for the reputation of the order, Martin, if But,
你知道，这种担心机构如何看待的问题，现在看起来已经非常过时了，因为路德又在传播他的观点。
you know, already, this kind of concern with what institutions will think is starting to look very retro because Luther again is broadcasting his perspective.
观点。
Perspective.
对。
Right.
因为更有趣，所以获得了更多的关注。
And because it's more interesting, it gets far more attention.
于是他回到维滕贝格，写下了与凯坦相遇的经过。
So he gets back to Wittenberg, and he writes up an account of his encounter with Keitan.
他说，上天垂怜，让我成为众人谈论的对象。
And he he said, it has pleased heaven that I should become the talk of the people.
不错。
Nice.
这简直是了不起的谦虚自夸。
Which is tremendous, humble bragging.
是的。
Yeah.
当然，凯坦不会公开讲述他做了什么。
And, of course, Keitan, he's not gonna broadcast an account of what he did.
所以路德就像拥有大量社交媒体账号的人，而凯坦则连电子邮件都没有。
So Luther is like someone who has masses of social media accounts, and Keitan is like someone who doesn't even have an email address.
这意味着路德能够主导辩论的议题。
And it means that Luther can dominate the terms of the debate.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但你把路德比作乔丹·彼得森。
But you compared Luther to Jordan Peterson.
当然，乔丹·彼得森引发了巨大的反向反应。
Of course, Jordan Peterson provokes massive counter reaction.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，他并不是总能如愿以偿。
I mean, he doesn't have it all his own way.
你知道，他不断被人攻击。
You know, he's endlessly being abused.
不。
No.
于是，同样的事情也开始发生在路德身上，即路德并不是唯一能使用印刷机的人。
And so the same thing starts to happen to Luther, that Luther is not the only person who is able to use the printing press.
还有其他人。
There are other people as well.
还有其他具有敏锐时机感的人。
There are other people with a sense of occasion.
其中一位是路德的前同事、朋友，名叫约翰·艾克。
And one of them is a former colleague, a friend of Luther's, a man called Johann Eck.
艾克对路德的走向感到震惊，并向他发起辩论。
And Eck is appalled by where Luther is going and challenges him to a debate.
而且，这非常像二十一世纪，不是吗？
And, again, this is very twenty first century, isn't it?
是的。
Yeah.
现在发生的就是这样。
That is what happened now.
理查德·道金斯与主教会面，或参加乔·罗根的节目之类的事情。
Richard Dawkins meeting with a bishop or appearing on the Joe Rogan show or something like that.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Absolutely.
就是这种
It's that
情况。
kind of thing.
艾克挑战路德进行辩论。
And Eck challenges Luther to a debate.
路德同意了，他将和维滕贝格大学的校长卡尔斯塔特一起去，卡尔斯塔特正在大力支持路德。
Luther agrees, and he'll he'll go with Karlstadt, the chancellor of Wittenberg University, who's kind of rallying behind behind Luther.
结果反而比路德更激进，不是吗？
And actually ends up being more radical than Luther, doesn't he?
他对路德的言论感到非常兴奋。
He gets so excited by Luther's message.
是的。
Yeah.
确实如此。
He does.
确实如此。
He does.
我们稍后会谈到这一点。
We'll come to that.
路德接受了前往莱比锡的邀请，但结果证明这是一个错误的决定。
And Luther accepts the invitation to go to Leipzig, but this turns out to be a bad mistake.
这就像是，如果你作为一名流行病学家受邀参加乔·罗根的节目，去和一个质疑传真的人辩论，是的。
So rather like if you're invited on Joe Rogan as an epidemiologist to debate someone who is skeptical of faxes Yeah.
你知道，你这是自讨苦吃，因为场地会对你不利。
You know, you're on a hiding to nothing because the venue will be against you.
莱比锡是另一个萨克森地区，对吧？
And Leipzig is the other Saxony, isn't it?
公爵治下的萨克森，不是选帝侯领地，所以这确实是敌对领土。
Duke or Saxony, not electoral, so it genuinely is rival territory.
是的。
Yes.
公爵乔治非常虔诚地信奉天主教，而且对路德极为敌视。
And the duke Georg is very devoutly Catholic and very hostile to Luther.
是的。
Yeah.
所以对路德来说，这是个不友好的地方。
So it's unfriendly territory for Luther.
路德到达后非常愤怒，因为莱比锡的人给艾克送了一件非常华丽的长袍，却没给他准备任何衣物。
And Luther gets there and he's furious because the people of Leipzig have given Eck a very fancy coat and gown, and they haven't given him one.
所以他对此感到非常沮丧。
So he's at an enormous drop about this.
对。
Right.
艾克是一位非常出色的辩手，也非常擅长自我宣传。
And Eck is a very good debater and very good at publicizing himself.
他成功让路德公开承认了一系列令人震惊的异端观点。
And he is able to get Luther publicly to confess to a whole staggering array of heresy.
他让路德公开表态，称教皇的权威没有圣经依据，炼狱不存在，布拉格的异端分子扬·胡斯——1414年被烧死的那位——在许多问题上都是对的。
So he gets Luther to go publicly on record as saying that the authority of the pope does not have the sanction of scripture, that purgatory doesn't, that Jan Hus, the Prague heretic who had been burnt at the stake in 1414, had been right on all kinds of issues.
是的。
Yeah.
这太重大了，不是吗？
That's massive, isn't it?
斯科特·亨德里克斯在他的路德传记中提到，路德实际上说过，胡斯的许多信仰完全是基督教的。
Scott Hendricks, I think, in his book on Luther says, Luther actually says many of Hus's beliefs were completely Christian.
这就像是说以诺是对的。
And that's like saying Enoch was right.
你知道的，对吧？
You know, isn't it?
我的意思是，这相当于在正统派眼中彻底玷污了自己，无法挽回。
I mean, it's sort of it's tainting yourself in the eyes of the orthodox beyond redemption.
是的。
Yeah.
这就像在推特上的争论中可能发生的情况，人们情绪激动，最终说出一些事后后悔的话。
And it is the kind of thing that can happen, say, on a Twitter spat that, you know, people can get so cross that they end up saying things that they really come to regret.
没错。
Yes.
所以卡尔施塔特实际上把善行，比如施舍武器之类的，比作经血污秽。
So Karlstadt, actually, he he compares good works, so giving arms or whatever Yeah.
经血污秽。
To menstrual filth.
是的。
Yeah.
这非常强烈。
That's very strong.
而这同样是你不希望出现在自己推特动态上的那种言论。
Which again is you know, that's not the kind of thing that you want to have on your Twitter feed.
关于善行，我们不能马上深入探讨，因为这是一个非常大的议题。
And on good works, we can't massively get bogged down on that right away because that's a very big issue.
但这确实是日常虔诚的重要组成部分，不是吗？
But that is a huge part of kind of everyday piety, isn't it?
人们被期望做各种各样的事，比如这里捐点钱，那里资助一个弥撒堂。
That that you are expected to do a whole range of, like, give a bit of money here, endow a chantry there.
你知道的。
You know?
对很多人来说，这就是他们宗教生活的本质。
To a lot of people, that is the essence of their religious life.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。