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我本已写完我的信，却从各种报告以及人群的匆忙奔走中得知，那位异端大师正在进入城中。
I had already concluded my letter when I gathered from various reports as well as the hasty running of the people that the great master of heretics was making his entrance.
我派了一个人出去，他告诉我，大约有一百名骑兵护送他来到城门。
I sent one of my people out, and he told me that about a 100 mounted soldiers had escorted him to the gate of the city.
他坐在一辆马车里，带着三位同伴，于上午十点进入城市，周围有大约八名骑马者随行，并在萨克森亲王附近安顿下来。
Sitting in a coach with three comrades, he entered the city at ten in the morning, surrounded by some eight horsemen, and found lodgings near his Saxon prince.
当他走下马车时，一位神父拥抱了他，三次触碰他的衣袍，欣喜若狂地大喊，仿佛手中握着最伟大圣徒的遗物。
When he left the coach, a priest embraced him and touched his habit three times and shouted with joy as if he had the relic of the greatest saint in his hands.
我怀疑他很快就会被传颂能行奇迹。
I suspect he will soon be said to wear miracles.
这位路德从马车下来时，用他那恶魔般的眼睛环顾四周，说道：‘上帝与我同在。’
This Luther, as he climbed from the coach, looked around in the circle with his demonic eyes, and he said, god will be with me.
随后他走进一家客栈，许多人为他而来，其中有十到十二人与他共进餐食。
Then he stepped into an inn where he was visited by many men, 10 or 12 of which he ate with.
用餐之后，全城的人都涌向那里，只为一睹他的风采。
And after the meal, all the world ran there to see him.
所以，汤姆，这位是教皇特使吉罗拉莫·亚历山大，他报告了马丁·路德于1521年4月16日抵达沃尔姆斯城的情况，这座城位于莱茵河畔。
So, Tom, that was Hieronymus Alexander, the papal legate, and he was reporting on Martin Luther's arrival in the city of Worms, which was the city on the banks of the Rhine, on the 04/16/1521.
有趣的是，当你读这段文字时，它就像一个法利赛人描述耶稣的到来，
The funny thing about that passage I mean, when you read it, it's very kind of a pharisee describes the coming of Jesus,
不是吗？
isn't it?
我的意思是，和他一起吃饭的那十二个人。
I mean, the 12 people eating with him.
令人惊讶的是，吉罗拉莫·亚历山大竟然没有注意到空气中悬而未决的这种相似性，或者
It's remarkable that Hieronymus Alexander did not notice the parallel hanging there in the air, or
也许他注意到了。
maybe he did.
正如我们后来会发现的，路德被安排在韦尔布斯住了下来，条件非常优厚。
Well, as we'll find out, Luther gets given excellent accommodation in verbs.
是的。
Yeah.
而亚历山大却没有注意到。
And Alexander doesn't.
没错。
Right.
也许他对住宿待遇的差异感到有些不满。
And it may be that he's a bit cross about the discrepancy in accommodation that's going on.
是的。
Yeah.
但这是欧洲历史上最伟大的场景之一，不是吗？
But this is one of the great scenes in European history, isn't it?
正如你昨天所说，对英语使用者来说，这一直是个令人发笑的话题。
And as you said yesterday, to English speakers, it's always been a cause of amusement.
沃尔姆斯议会。
The diet of worms.
所以，议会是一种由帝国各地的领导人被召集组成的集会
So a diet is a kind of it's an assembly of the various leaders from across the empire who get summoned
嗯。
Mhmm.
由皇帝亲自召集。
By the emperor himself.
但，显然，吃蠕虫这个想法。
But, obviously, the idea of eating worms.
我的意思是，在我们关于巧克力的那期节目中，我们谈到过在17世纪，有人建议在巧克力里添加蠕虫。
I mean, we in our chocolate episode, we talked about how in the seventeenth century, it was recommended that you should add worms to chocolate.
鳗鱼胆。
Gall of eel.
鳗鱼胆。
Gall of eel.
是的。
Yeah.
但尤其是蠕虫。
But worms particularly.
更近一些时候，埃弗顿足球俱乐部嗓音沙哑的经理肖恩·戴奇。
And more recently, the the gravel voiced manager of Everton football club, Sean Deitch.
他召开了一场新闻发布会，对吧？
He called a press conference, didn't he?
是的。
Yeah.
顺便说一下，我绝对不吃虫子。
For the record, I definitely don't eat worms.
他确实吃了。
He did.
制片人托尼告诉我们关于他的这个精彩趣闻。
Producer, Tony, told us that great anecdote about him.
嗯，因为他
Well, because he
当时他正是伯恩利队的主教练，才做出了这件事。
was he was the manager of Burnley at the time when he he made this.
是的。
Yeah.
托尼是伯恩利队的球迷。
And Tony is a Burnley fan.
他说，肖恩·迪奇有一个迷信的习惯，每次比赛后都会去麦当劳喝杯咖啡。
He said that Sean Dyche superstition, a a ritual of his, that after every match, he stops at McDonald's for a coffee.
托尼觉得这个细节非常非凡，但我们并没有像他期待的那样表现出激动和兴奋。
Tony thought this was an absolutely extraordinary detail, but we didn't greet it with the rapture and excitements that he was hoping for.
是的。
Yeah.
因为，我的意思是，如果他停下来喝杯咖啡，再吃一堆蠕虫，那倒还说得过去。
Because, I mean, if he'd stop for, you know, coffee and a load of worms, please.
对。
Right.
那会
That would
会很有趣。
have been interesting.
但不管怎样，听好了。
But, anyway, listen.
我们别跑题了。
Let's not get sidetracked.
所以，汤姆，我们来把这个放在背景下说。
So, Tom, let's just put this into context.
因为上周我们谈到了马丁·路德从默默无闻到成为欧洲名人的发展过程，也就是欧洲范围内的名声。
Because last week, we talked about the rise of Martin Luther from obscurity to European celebrity, so European fame.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这位1483年出生的修士，要么确实，要么没有，把他对赎罪券的抨击钉在了维滕贝格教堂的门上。
This monk born in 1483 who either does or does not nail his attack on indulgences to the door of the church in Wittenberg.
随后，他与天主教正统代表们展开了一系列的对抗和辩论——如果这不算自相矛盾的话——他越来越激进，对体制的抨击也愈发猛烈。
There's then a series of kind of confrontations and debates with representatives of of Catholic orthodoxy, if that's not a contradiction perhaps, where he's going further and further and becoming more and more radical in his attack on the establishment.
他经历了我们上一次谈到的那些过程。
He has gone through we talked last time.
他经历了一种近乎转变的体验，一种重生的体验。
He's gone through this almost kind of conversion experience, an experience of being born again.
这被称为他的改革时刻，在这一时刻，他确信唯有通过圣经的体验和唯独信心才能获得救赎。
His reformation moment as it is called, where he becomes convinced that only through the experience of the Bible and through faith alone can you achieve salvation.
现在，我们正走向历史上一场史诗般的对抗，一场伟大的对决。
And now we are heading for one of history's titanic confrontations, a great showdown.
所以，正如你在笔记中提到的，已经过去了两年。
So it's two years, as you say in your notes here.
这是在另一次我们讨论过的对抗之后的两年，那场对抗发生在恩南·科尔特斯与阿兹特克皇帝蒙特苏马之间，地点在特诺奇蒂特兰的堤道上。
So it's two years after another showdown we talked about, which was that between Enan Cortez and the Aztec emperor, Montezuma, outside Tenochtitlan on the causeway.
这是两年后的事了。
This is two years later.
但可以说，这场对抗虽然没那么戏剧化，但你认为它是否更重要，或者至少同样重要？
But arguably, this is I mean, it's less dramatic, but it's would you argue it's more important or as important maybe?
科尔特斯与蒙特苏马的会面在象征意义上至关重要，因为它预示了未来的走向。
The meeting of Cortez and Moctezuma is symbolically important for what it portends.
但我认为这次会面真正重要的是它的结果。
But I think the meeting here, I mean, it really matters what the result of it is.
旧世界与新世界的相遇，其奇异程度显然超乎想象。
And the meeting of the old world and the new is obviously off the scale in terms of of the strangeness of it.
但这里也有一种奇异之处，因为路德不仅是一个被定罪的异端，他出身也非常卑微。
But there is a strangeness here as well because Luther, as well as being a condemned heretic, I mean, he is also a very humble stock.
他来自一个普通的矿业村庄。
He is from a, you know, humble mining village.
他的祖先都是农民。
His ancestors are peasants.
而皇帝查理五世是哈布斯堡家族的人，他统治着可能是当时世界上最大的帝国——当然也是欧洲历史上最大的帝国，因为他拥有广袤的欧洲领地。
And the emperor, Charles the fifth, is a Habsburg, and he is the ruler of probably the largest empire the world you know, certainly European world has seen because he's got all these vast European possessions.
他是神圣罗马帝国皇帝。
He's the Holy Roman Emperor.
他拥有西班牙。
He's got Spain.
他拥有尼德兰。
He's got The Netherlands.
他拥有一大堆东西。
He's got all kinds of stuff.
德国。
Germany.
是的。
Yeah.
但他还正在获得这个新世界的帝国。
But he's also getting this empire in in the new world.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这是一个非凡的时刻。
So it is an amazing moment.
但这对宗教改革的历史也至关重要，因为到这个时候，路德已经是德国最著名的人。
But it's also it really matters in the history of the reformation because Luther, by this point, is the most famous man in Germany.
他是维滕贝格大学的明星教授。
He is the star professor at the University of Wittenberg.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
那么现在的问题是，该如何处置他？
And the question now is what is going to be done with him?
他已被谴责，但似乎德国的主流民意站在他这一边。
He's been condemned, but it seems that the massive German opinion is on his side.
更关键的是，帝国政治中的一个重要人物也支持他，那就是萨克森的选帝侯腓特烈智者。
And more germanely, a key figure in the politics of the empire is on his side, and that is Frederick the Wise, the elector of Saxony.
他是维滕贝格大学的创办者，不希望看到自己的明星教授真的被活活烧死。
And he is the man who has founded Wittenberg University, and he doesn't want to see his star professor go you know, literally go up in smoke.
因此，他出面斡旋，让路德的案件不在罗马审理——在那里他无疑会被定罪并处以火刑，而是在德国审理，并且不是由教会代表，而是由皇帝亲自听审。
And so he is the one who negotiates to have Luther's case heard not in Rome where he would undoubtedly be condemned and burnt, but in Germany, and to have it heard not by the representatives of the church itself but by the emperor.
听众可能会好奇，他是如何能够促成这件事的呢？
And listeners may be wondering, well, how how is he able to force this through?
答案是，弗雷德里克处于非常有利的地位。
And the answer is that Frederick is in a very strong position.
我们之前谈到过，他是七位选帝侯之一。
So we talked about how he is one of the seven electors.
是的。
Yeah.
查理是在1519年当选的，并且获得了全票通过。
And Charles, he was elected in the 1519 and was elected unanimously.
这真的、真的很重要。
And that really, really mattered.
弗雷德里克一直秘而不宣。
And Frederick had held his cards close to his chest.
他直到最后一刻才透露自己会投给谁。
He hadn't revealed until the last moment who he was going to vote for.
所以，你知道，查理觉得自己欠他人情。
And so, you know, Charles feels in his debt.
是的。
Yeah.
这一点的证据是，金钱开始流入弗雷德里克的金库。
And the evidence of this is that money starts to flow into Frederick's coffers.
我的意思是，这算不算贿赂，也许不算。
I mean, whether it's a bribe or not, I mean, maybe not.
也许这被看作是一种偿还之类的。
Maybe it's kind of cast as a repayment or whatever.
但毫无疑问，双方的关系不仅用金钱来衡量，也用婚姻关系来界定。
But definitely, relations are, being couched in monetary terms, but they've also been couched in matrimonial terms.
因此，弗雷德里克的侄子曾与查理的妹妹订婚。
So Frederick's nephew has been engaged to Charles' sister.
尽管他们最终并没有成婚，但在这段时期内他们算是姻亲，这一点也很重要。
And although they never actually marry, the fact that they are kind of in laws for this period, I mean, that also matters.
当然，除此之外，还有地缘政治背景，那就是土耳其人已经兵临城下。
And then of course, on top of that, there is the geopolitical context, which is that the Turks are at the gates.
作为皇帝，查理有责任构建一个统一战线。
And it's Charles' responsibility as emperor to construct a united front.
萨克森因为其银矿而非常富裕，这也是查理不想得罪弗雷德里克的另一个原因。
And Saxony is very rich because of its silver mines, and there is that reason as well why Charles doesn't want to alienate Frederick.
关于查理和选举的事，我觉得稍微提供一点背景会比较好。
So just on Charles and the election, because I think it's nice to have a little bit of context.
他在那次选举中的主要对手，大家都认为他肯定会当选，因为他的祖父马克西米利安曾是皇帝，这几十年来几乎成了哈布斯堡家族的囊中之物。
His main opponents in that election, so his rivals everyone thinks he's probably gonna get it because his grandfather, Maximilian, had been the emperor, and it's kind of been a little bit of a Habsburg bauble for the last couple of generations.
但他的对手是法国的弗朗索瓦一世，还有我们自己的亨利八世，汤姆。
But his rivals are Francois the first of France, but also our own, Henry the eighth, Tom.
是的。
Yeah.
历史可能会有多么不同。
How his how different history might have been.
正如你所说，查理以全票当选。
Now as you said, Charles wins a unanimous victory.
不过，有趣的是，我们上次谈到了原始的民族主义。
Interestingly though, we talked last time about kind of proto nationalism.
这个时代常被认为处于民族主义之前，但民族情感确实存在。
This is an age often thought of as being before nationalism, but national sentiments do exist.
是的。
Yeah.
查理在选举中获胜，部分原因是他声称自己是最具德意志特色的候选人。
Charles wins in the election partly because he says, I'm the most German candidate.
嗯，他连马都用德语说话，不是吗？
Well, he speaks German to his horse, doesn't he?
对。
Right.
所以托斯是一个真正非常有趣的人物。
So Toss is a genuinely really, really interesting figure.
他在英国或英语世界中的知名度不如在欧洲大陆，在那里他是一位极具影响力、近乎超凡的历史人物。
He's not as well known in Britain or the English speaking world as he is in Continental Europe, where he's a massive, you know, transcendent kind of historical figure.
那么他后来成了什么样的人呢？
So he became what is he?
他20岁时遇见了路德。
He's 20 when he meets Luther.
是的。
Yeah.
所以他出生于1500年？
So he's born in 1500?
他于1500年出生于根特，也就是现在的比利时，当时属于他的尼德兰领地的一部分。
Born in 1500 in Ghent, which is now in Belgium, which was then, you know, part of his kind of Netherlands possessions.
他是勃艮第的菲利普一世和卡斯蒂利亚的胡安娜的儿子。
He's the son of Philip the fair of Burgundy and Joanna the mad of Castile.
这名字真够疯狂的。
Crazy name.
疯丫头。
Crazy girl.
是的。
Yes.
非常好。
Very good.
他受过极好的教育。
He's incredibly well educated.
他能说很多种不同的语言。
He speaks lots of different languages.
所以那句著名的话是：他用西班牙语对上帝说话，用意大利语对女人说话，用法语对男人说话，用德语对他的马说话。
So the famous saying is he speaks Spanish to God, Italian to women, French to men, and German to his horse.
是的。
Yeah.
他有着著名的哈布斯堡下巴，而且他非常聪明、深思熟虑，但也很内向，是的。
And he has an enormous jaw, famously the Habsburg jaw, and he's a very you know, he's intelligent and thoughtful, but he's also very introverted Yeah.
阴郁、多疑、谨慎。
Gloomy, suspicious, cautious.
他显然刚刚成为神圣罗马帝国皇帝，却肩负着如此庞大而分散的职责。
And he's obviously only just come in as holy Roman emperor, and he has this massive disparate role.
知道。
Know.
噩梦般的情况。
Nightmare situation.
他正面对着奥斯曼帝国。
He's facing the Ottomans Yeah.
但同时还要作为西班牙国王、尼德兰和勃艮第的统治者维持统一。
But also to maintain unity as king of Spain, as ruler of The Netherlands and Burgundy Yeah.
统治着这片疯狂的拼凑领土
As ruler of this mad patchwork of
神圣罗马帝国，这真是个艰巨无比的任务。
the holy that's a tough, tough job.
他能看出，支持路德的人与忠于传统教会的人之间的分裂，确实构成了严重威胁。
And he can see that the schism between people who back Luther and people who are loyal to the established church, I mean, is really threatening.
没错。
Right.
因此，他想设法解决这一分裂，同时还要争取弗雷德里克的支持。
And so he wants to somehow try and resolve that while also keeping Frederick on board.
因此，他同意召见路德到沃尔姆斯听他陈述。
And so this is why he agrees that he will summon Luther to hear him at Worms.
于是，查理于3月26日向维滕贝格发出传唤，要求路德就他的书籍和教义作出回应。
And so the summons arrives from Charles in Wittenberg on the March 26, and Luther is instructed to answer with regard to your books and teachings.
他被给予三周时间配合，同时，多米尼克也从皇帝那里获得了人身安全保证。
And he is given three weeks to comply, And he also, Dominic, receives a personal assurance from the emperor of safe conduct.
之前节目的听众会明白，这对路德来说可能并不完全令人安心，因为历史上有个警示性的例子：一位被指控为异端的教授曾被帝国当局传唤，也获得了安全通行保证，那就是扬·胡斯——他于1414年前往康斯坦茨，尽管有安全保证，最终仍被烧死。
And listeners to earlier episodes will appreciate that this may not be entirely reassuring to Luther because there is a salutary example of a professor accused of heresy being summoned by the imperial authorities to make a case and being given a safe conduct, and that is Jan Hus who goes to Constance in 1414 and despite his safe conduct ends up being burnt.
那位是波希米亚的改革者，或准改革者。
And that's the Bohemian reformer or would be reformer
是的
Yeah.
人们认为他是路德的先驱。
Who people saw as the sort of precursor to Luther.
路德曾说，他被约翰·艾克逼到了角落里。
And Luther had said he'd been pushed into a corner by Johann Eck.
是的
Yeah.
他还说，你知道，我认同胡斯的很多观点。
And he had said, you know, I believe a lot of Hus's stuff.
因此，这个相似之处一定悬在他头上。
So that parallel must be hanging over him.
当然。
Absolutely.
在前往途中，他对同伴说：‘我们都是胡斯派，却自己都没意识到。’
And as he's going there, he says to a companion, we are all Hussites and did not realize it.
所以他现在公开把自己与胡斯认同在一起。
So he's now overtly identifying himself with Hus.
而且，你知道，他曾是一名修士。
And, you know, he'd been a monk.
他曾经是一名非常虔诚的天主教徒，因此他原本把胡斯看作异端。
He'd been a very devout Catholic, so he would have seen Hus as a heretic.
他在一座修道院里，那里有一位谴责胡斯的人物被埋在祭坛旁。
He's in a monastery where one of the figures who condemns Hus is buried by the altar.
但如今，他从根本上逆转了自己对历史的理解。
But now, essentially, he's totally reversing his understanding of history.
他把胡斯看作正义的一方。
He's seeing Hus as the goody Right.
而把教廷看作邪恶的一方。
And he's seeing the papacy as the baddie.
我认为他前往沃尔姆斯时，已经做好了可能被烧死的准备。
And I think that he is going to Worms thinking that he might well be burnt.
我的意思是，他无法不被这段历史的教训压得喘不过气。
I mean, he cannot help but have this lesson from history weighing him down.
他这么做，真是无比勇敢。
And it's incredibly brave of him to do it.
你知道，他能不能全身而退并不是板上钉钉的事。
You know, it's not a given that he will get away with this.
于是他离开维滕贝格，带着他的律师——维滕贝格的法学教授希罗尼穆斯·舒尔夫，我们之前已经提到过他。
So he leaves Wittenberg and he has his lawyer who is the professor of law at Wittenberg, Hieronymus Schurf, who we've already mentioned.
他总是试图稍微抑制路德那过于直率的倾向。
He's a guy who's always trying to kind of slightly stop Luther from being quite as forthright as as Luther tends to be.
是的。
Yeah.
他们启程上路，显然在路上非常显眼，因为查理五世派出了他的传令官卡斯帕·施图姆，他驾驶着一辆马车，载着路德、舒尔夫以及来自维滕贝格的其他人。
And they set out and they obviously, they're very conspicuous on the road because Charles the fifth has sent his herald, a guy called Casper Sturm, and he leads this wagon with Luther and Scherff and various other people from Bittenberg.
这位传令官的袖子上绣着德意志帝国的鹰徽。
And the herald, he has the imperial eagle of Germany on his sleeves.
每次他们出行到达一个城镇，都会引起巨大轰动，因为到了这个时候，路德已经是一位极其著名的公众人物了。
And so every time they go on the road and they come into a town, huge excitement because Luther is I mean, he's a massive, massive celebrity by this point.
这对路德来说也非常有趣，因为他正经过自己曾经求学过的地方。
And great fun for Luther because he's going through places where he was educated.
他抵达了埃尔福特——他曾经求学的地方，那里为他举办了盛大的庆典。
So he arrives in Erfurt where he'd been a student, and huge party thrown for him.
他发表了一篇布道，前来听讲的人太多，以至于人们担心教堂会坍塌。
He gives a sermon, and so many people crowd into the church that people are worried it's gonna collapse.
这就像是你，多米尼克，突然回到鲍利奥学院，所有人都为你举办盛宴，纷纷出来听你讲话。
So it'd be like you, Dominic, turning up at Balliol, and everyone holds a feast, and they all come out to hear you.
这很可能真的会发生，汤姆。
That probably would happen, Tom.
我觉得这种情况真的会发生。
I think that would happen.
来一场关于历史其余部分的现场演出之类的。
Do a live show of the rest of history or something.
那会很棒。
It would be great.
但我认为，显然，这也让人紧张不已。
But I think also, obviously, it's nerve wracking as well.
当他到达艾森纳赫——也就是瓦尔特堡，那座宏伟的城堡——时，由于恐慌发作，他虚弱到不得不接受放血治疗，而那里正是路德曾求学的地方。
So when he gets to Eisenbach, which is the Wartsburg, that great castle, but it's where Luther had been at school, he's so prostrated by panic attacks that he has to be bled.
明白了。
Right.
路德把这一切归咎于魔鬼。
And Luther blames the devil for this.
路德始终被一种念头困扰：魔鬼正企图迫害他。
Luther is haunted by the sense that the devil is out to persecute him.
当然。
Of course.
但你知道，他越来越紧张，就在他即将进入城市时，弗雷德里克的秘书警告他不要进城，因为人们会谴责他。
But, you know, he's getting more and more nervous, and he's just approaching firms when Frederick's secretary warns him not to enter the city because he is going to be condemned.
所以非常令人担忧。
So very alarming.
这就有点像纳瓦尔尼返回俄罗斯，但选择站出来抗争。
So it's a bit like Navalny going back to Russia, but making a stand.
你知道，他是在站出来抗争，但他知道这很可能以灾难收场。
You know, he's making a stand, but he knows it'll probably end in disaster.
我认为路德比纳瓦尔尼更希望他能侥幸逃脱。
I think Luther is more hopeful that he may get away with it than Navalny.
我认为纳瓦尔尼清楚，他返回俄罗斯就意味着注定失败。
I think Navalny knew that he was doomed by going back.
路德并不认为自己必死无疑，但当然，他必须意识到死亡可能是结果。
Luther doesn't think he's doomed, but he, of course, I mean, he he has to be aware that that death may be the result.
好的。
Okay.
但他鼓起勇气说：即使面对地狱之门和黑暗势力，我们也要勇往直前。
But, know, he kind of summons up his courage and he says, we shall enter verbs in spite of the gates of hell and the powers of darkness.
所以他一直在做自己一贯做的事，把自己塑造成光明的使者，而将反对他的人视为魔鬼的代理人。
So he's doing what he always does, which is to cast himself as the agent of light and those who are opposing him as the agents of the devil.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我们从他朗读的那段文字中得知，教皇特使记载他于4月16日抵达。
So we heard from the passage he read, the account by the papal legate that he arrives on the April 16.
他被安排在靠近主教宫殿的舒适房间，那里将举行他与皇帝的会面。
He's installed in very nice rooms near to the the Bishop's Palace where his meeting with the emperor will take place.
嗯。
Mhmm.
第二天下午，也就是4月17日，他被召见去会见查理五世。
And he is summoned to meet Charles the fifth the following afternoon, April 17.
让我来描绘一下沃尔姆斯的样子。
So just to paint a picture of Worms.
沃尔姆斯位于莱茵河的西岸。
Worms is on the Western Bank Of The Rhine.
它位于德国西部。
It's in the West Of Germany.
它被称为帝国自由城市，因此在皇帝统治下实行自治。
It's what's called an imperial free city, so it's self governing under the emperor.
有故事说，路德曾受到城内犹太社区代表的拜访，因为沃尔姆斯有大量犹太人口。
There are stories that Luther is visited by representatives of the town's Jewish community because there's a big Jewish population in in Worms.
对。
Right.
维滕贝格没有犹太人。
And there are no Jews in Wittenberg.
对。
Right.
他们早在十四世纪就被驱逐了。
So they have been expelled in the fourteenth century.
哦，而且当地人口也比平常增长了许多倍。
Oh, and also its population has swelled to many times its normal size.
我认为那里多出了大约一万四千人，因为帝国议会——这是由选帝侯和其他帝国诸侯定期召开的集会。
I think there was something like 14,000 extra people there because the imperial diet, which is this regular assembly of the electors and other princes of the empire.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道，这种集会自九世纪以来就一直存在，那时帝国还属于法兰克世界的一部分。
You know, these have been held since the ninth century when the empire was part of the Frankish kind of world.
你可以想象，街道上挤满了小贩、艺人、游客，人潮汹涌，气氛热烈。
And you can imagine the streets full of hucksters, minstrels, tourists, you know, big crowds, and great excitement.
是的。
Yeah.
因此，所有关于路德在此现身的记载都强调了人群的规模。
So all the accounts of Luther's appearance here emphasize the crowds.
所以他们说，当他在4月17日下午前往会议时，人群如此之多，以至于他不得不从侧面进入。
So they say that when he goes to the meeting on the afternoon of the April 17, that the crowds are so great that he has to be taken in by a sideways.
因此，他被引导穿过一座花园，从侧门进入会场。
So he gets led through a garden and in through a side door to the meeting.
人们都爬到屋顶上观看。
And people are climbing onto the rooftops to see.
你提到在引言中，教皇特使无意中勾勒出基督进入耶路撒冷的画面。
And you talked about how in the introduction, the papal legger inadvertently is kind of conjuring up an image of Christ coming into Jerusalem.
路德的仰慕者们明确表达了这种看法。
Luther's admirers are overtly saying that.
他们直接将这些人群与棕枝主日出来迎接基督的人群相比较。
They're overtly comparing these crowds to the crowds who come out to see Christ on Palm Sunday.
当然，这未必是种安慰，是的。
Now, of course, that's not necessarily a reassurance Yeah.
因为你知道，耶稣最终还是被钉上了十字架。
Because, you know, Jesus still ends up being crucified.
我认为路德对此感到不知所措。
And I think Luther is overwhelmed by it.
我认为他真的、真的非常不安。
I think he is really, really unsettled.
所以他走进了议事厅。
So he walks into the chamber.
帝国的贵族们都在那里。
The nobility of the empire are there.
他们身着华丽的珠宝、长袍和紧身裤，盛装出席。
They're sumptuously arrayed in jewelry and robes and cod pieces and everything.
是的。
Yeah.
而路德只穿着一件朴素简单的长袍。
And Luther has just got his plain, simple casacon.
尽管许多贵族在为他加油鼓劲，但对他来说，这仍是一场令人恐惧而压倒性的经历，尤其是因为房间尽头，当然，坐着皇帝本人。
And even though lots of the nobles are are shouting encouragement to him, it's a terrifying, overwhelming experience for him, particularly because there at the end of the room, of course, is the emperor himself.
还有一张桌子，上面堆满了他所有的各种出版物。
And there is also a table that has a great pile of all his various publications.
这不就是你的噩梦吗？
That's your nightmare, isn't it?
你被召去参加一场由世界上最有影响力的人组成的会议。
That you're called into a meeting of the biggest people in the world.
是的，确实如此，对吧？
Yeah, it is, isn't it?
而且他们
And they're
你所有的书都必须被逐字剖析。
all your books have to be dissected.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
他们一边挑剔地翻看，一边问你：这些书是你写的吗？
And they cut you know, they're looking at them disapprovingly and say, have you written them?
这个问题首先用拉丁语，然后用德语提出。
And this is asked both first in Latin and then in German.
sheriff 路德的律师说：请朗读这些书的标题。
And Sheriff Luther's lawyer says, let the titles of the books be read.
所以，多米尼克。
So, Dominic.
是的。
Yeah.
阳光下的季节。
Seasons in the sun.
我太喜欢了。
I'd love that.
所有那些。
All that.
我其实特别喜欢这首歌。
I'd actually love that song.
在整个过程中，路德只能回答是或否。
And the whole way through, Luther is supposed to only answer yes or no.
因此，这次审讯的安排方式是为了让他没有机会炫耀，因为他的敌人很清楚，他在这方面非常非常擅长。
So this is the this interrogation has been structured so that he won't have an opportunity to grandstand because everyone is aware, his enemies, that he he's very, very good at this.
所以整个流程的设计就是为了确保他无法自由发挥。
So the whole thing has been structured to ensure that he he can't start freewheeling.
对。
Right.
我认为他对此感到非常不安和畏惧。
And I think he he he's very upset by this and intimidated.
因此，他采取了一种拖延策略。
So he adopts a delaying strategy.
你知道，有人问他：‘你愿意收回并撤销你的书籍吗？’
You know, he's asked, will you recant and revoke your books?
他对此回答说：‘我不知道。'
And he says to this, I don't know.
我想花点时间好好想想。
I want to have time to think about it.
他说，这是一个关乎信仰和灵魂救赎的问题，因为它涉及神圣的道，而我们都必须敬畏它，因为天上地下再没有什么比这更伟大的了。
And he says, this is a question of faith and the salvation of souls and because it concerns the divine word, which we are all bound to reverence, for there is nothing greater in heaven or on earth.
于是他请求休会，这一请求得到了批准。
And so he asked for an adjournment, and this is granted.
但是，汤姆，这简直难以置信。
But, Tom, this is unbelievable.
他一路走了这么远，还有大批人群簇拥。
He's gone all this way, and there are huge crowds.
然后他走进了这个房间。
And then he goes into this room.
你知道，这就像《指环王》或《星球大战》里的场景一样。
You know, it's like something from the Lord of the Rings or Star Wars or something.
人们穿着华丽的长袍，只有他一个孤独的修士。
People in their magnificent robes and just this one lone monk.
然后他进去说，我明天回来。
And then he gets in and says, I'll come back tomorrow.
但这真是个高明的策略。
But it is a genius tactic.
这是一场表演。
It's theater.
对吧？
Right?
这简直是彻底的表演。
It's absolute theater.
他在公关方面太厉害了。
He is brilliant at this PR.
胆子真大啊
What chutzpah
居然敢对皇帝、所有选帝侯、亲王、伯爵以及那些人这么说。
to say that to the emperor and to all of these electors and princes and counts and whatever they are.
多么非凡的自信啊。
What extraordinary confidence.
但同时，多米尼克，这就像帝国权力面前的一种沉默。
But also, Dominic, it's a kind of silence before the imperial power.
还有谁曾在帝国权力面前保持沉默？
And who else was silent before the imperial power?
当他离开大厅时，外面的人群呼喊着让他坚强、勇敢，不要屈服，许多人公开将他比作站在彼拉多面前的基督。
When he goes out from the hall for his adjournment, the crowds out there are calling on him, you know, to be strong, to be brave, not to give in, and there are lots of them who are openly comparing him to Christ before Pilate.
我认为他是在有意识地利用这一点。
I think he's consciously making play with this
对。
Right.
同时他也在争取时间。
Even as he is also playing for time.
我们已经一次又一次地讨论过这个问题了。
You You know, we we've talked about this again and again and again.
路德对那些令人难忘、会被人们传颂和神化的戏剧性时刻的把握。
Luther's genius for the dramatic moment that people will remember and talk about and mythologize.
至于他把自己比作耶稣，或者说是扮演耶稣，这个人不久前还因为觉得自己不配而连续六小时向忏悔神父倾诉。
And on that thing of comparing himself to Jesus or at least role playing as Jesus, as it were, this is somebody who, not long ago, was having six hour therapy sessions with his confessor because he felt unworthy.
他现在是不是有点自鸣得意？也许用这个词太严厉了？
Does he now just feel kinda puffed up is maybe too harsh?
但不是的。
But No.
主与他同在。
The lord is with him.
他重生了。
He's born again.
上帝爱他。
God loves him.
是的。
Yeah.
他充满活力。
He's invigorated.
他乐在其中。
He's loving this.
他确实认为，重新演绎耶稣的旅程，这没什么问题，因为我是在为主工作。
And he does think, reenacting the journey of Jesus as it were, he thinks it's fine because I'm doing the Lord's work.
基督与他同在。
Christ is with him.
基督在他心中。
Christ is in his heart.
这就是他的恩典状态。
That is his state of grace.
对。
Right.
好的。
Okay.
所以他在第二天下午回去了。
So he goes back the following afternoon.
现在我们来到了4月18日。
So that's now we're now on the April 18.
有太多人想看这场对决，以至于他们不得不把地点换到一个更大的厅里。
And so many people want to see this showdown that they've had to move it to a bigger hall.
即便如此，一些前来的大公们也只能站着。
And even as it is, some of the princes who've come, they have to stand.
这足以说明，这场活动绝对是城里最抢手的盛事。
So this is the measure of how this is, by miles, the hottest ticket in town.
路德走了进去，此时天色已晚。
And Luther goes in, and by now it's getting dark.
火炬正在燃烧。
The torches are burning.
影子在摇曳。
The shadows are flickering.
他被问了同样的问题：你愿意收回并撤销你的著作吗？
And he is asked the same question, will you recant and revoke your books?
路德回答说，就像他之前对红衣主教卡莱塔所言那样——我们在上一集中提到过他——如果有人能从圣经中证明这些书中有错误，他愿意收回。
And Luther replies, rather as he had done to Calhattan, the cardinal, who we talked about in the previous episode, that he will, if it can be shown from scripture that they contain errors.
但除此之外，他不会收回。
But otherwise, he won't.
对。
Right.
他说，你看，我写的这些书，看看它们在这座城市乃至整个帝国引发了怎样的轰动。
And he says, you know, these books, the things I have to say, look at the stir they have created here in the city across the empire.
我不会为此道歉，因为这些书引发的热议恰恰证明了它们所言的真实性。
And I'm not going to apologize for this because, basically, the excitement that my books have created is proving the truth of what they say.
他说，看到因上帝的话语而激起的激动与分歧，对我来说，是这些事情中最令人欣喜的部分。
And he says to see excitement and dissension arise because of the word of God is to me clearly the most joyful aspect of all in these matters.
因此，他把敌人指控他制造社会动乱的说法完全颠倒了过来，说：没错，公众的动荡恰恰证明了我所做之事的价值。
So he's turning on its head the charge of his enemies that he is creating public unrest and saying, well, yes, the public unrest is the proof of the value of what I'm doing.
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对。
Right.
聪明。
Clever.
因为这正是上帝话语的方式、契机与结果，正如基督所说：我来不是带来和平，而是刀剑。
For this is the way, the opportunity, and the result of the word of God, just as Christ said, I have not come to bring peace but a sword.
每当一位基督教领袖这样说时，你知道，这有点让人紧张。
And whenever a Christian leader starts saying that, you know, it's it was slightly nerve racking.
但关于审问者，抱歉。
But the thing with the the inquisitor sorry.
审问者对他说，托马斯，对吧？
The inquisitor says to him, Tom, doesn't he?
路德说，你知道，要让我撤回，你们得在圣经里证明。
Luther says, you know, basically, to make me recant, you'd have to prove in the bible.
我的意思是，对我来说，只有圣经，别无他选。
I mean, it's just the bible or nothing for me.
是的
Yeah.
但即使在这一点上，这位审问者，一个男人，有点令人困惑的是，他叫约翰十世。
But even at this point, the inquisitor, who's a guy, slightly confusingly, he's called Johann X.
所以他和之前的约翰十世同名。
So he has the same name as a previous Johann X.
他经历过多次约翰十世的浪潮。
Had waves of x.
但他是个不同的人。
But he's a different man.
约汉内斯说，你知道吗？
And Yohannes says, do you know what?
所有异端分子都会
All heretics go on
谈论圣经。
about the Bible.
我的意思是，
I mean,
他提出了这一点。
he makes this point.
他说，你在谈论经文，但所有异端都是这样做的。
He says, you're talking about scripture, but that's what all heretics do.
这就是为什么你需要教会作为机构来解释圣经的含义，因为否则它太模糊、太不明确了。
That's why you need the church as the institution to explain what the Bible means because otherwise, it's too ambiguous and it's too unclear.
而这个问题，这种两者之间的冲突，我的意思是，它贯穿了数百年，不仅是新教与天主教之间的对抗，更是西方文明中个人良知与体制之间的冲突。
And that issue, that conflict between the two, I mean, that runs through hundreds of years of not just Protestant versus Catholic, but kind of Western civilization, the individual conscience versus the institution.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Absolutely.
因为路德理所当然地认为，圣灵正在通过他说话，他对经文的理解不言而喻就是真理，如果每个人都分享他的体验，他们就会像他一样完全理解上帝的话语。
Because Luther is taking for granted that the spirit is speaking through him, that his understanding of the word is self evidently the truth, and that if everyone shares in his experience, they will understand the word of God exactly as he does.
这就是他的立场。
And that is his position.
这给了他直面审判官的勇气。
And this is what gives him the strength to face down the inquisitor.
当审判官指责他只是在玩经院哲学的游戏，像个大学讲师一样，用华丽的诡辩来逃避责任时
And when the inquisitor accuses him of kind of basically playing scholastic games, playing the kind of the university lecturer, trying to wriggle out of situations with fine sounding sophistry
嗯。
Mhmm.
路德做出了掷地有声的声明。
Luther makes this ringing statement.
他直视着审判官。
He fixes his Inquisitor with his gaze.
他环顾四周。
He looks around him.
他说，他蔑视教皇、议会和审判官的一切虚伪做派，因为他只受圣灵启示给他的圣经理解所约束。
He says that he scorns all the pretensions of popes and councils and inquisitors because he is bound only by the understanding of scripture that has been revealed to him by the spirit.
他说：我的良知被上帝的话语所束缚。
And he says, my conscience is captive to the word of God.
所以，他又一次强调了‘良知’这个词——我既不能也不愿收回任何话，因为违背良知既不安全也不正当。
So that word conscience again, which he keeps emphasizing, I cannot and I will not retract anything since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience.
根据审讯记录，他在这里停了下来。
And according to the transcript of the interrogation, this is where he he stops.
这是他的最后陈述。
This is his final statement.
但根据后来由他在维滕贝格的支持者发布的审讯记录，他随后又说了一句铿锵有力的话，这可能是他一生中最著名的一句话。
But according to the transcript that in due course will be released by his supporters in Wittenberg, he then goes on to utter a ringing phrase that will probably be the most famous thing he ever says.
我别无选择。
I cannot do otherwise.
我站在这里。
Here, I stand.
我在这里，Ich。
Here stay ich.
这句话将响彻整个帝国，甚至穿越几个世纪。
And this phrase will ring across the empire and indeed, Dominic, down the centuries.
太棒了。
Oh, brilliant.
所以，基本上，他的敌人无意中给了路德一个绝佳的机会，让他能直接向皇帝陈述自己的观点。
And so, basically, his enemies have handed Lewis exactly what they didn't want to do, which is a chance to make his case in front of the emperor himself.
这位平凡的修士，对抗着教会皇帝所有的威严与权力。
This simple monk opposed by all the panoply and power of the emperor of the church.
你知道，这是一个非凡的时刻。
And, you know, it's an amazing moment.
汤姆，顺便说一下，那个时刻，那句‘我站在这里，我别无选择’——无论你怎么翻译——多米尼克·麦克库洛赫在他的《宗教改革》一书中说，这不仅是宗教改革的座右铭，更是整个现代西方文明的座右铭。
Tom, that moment, by the way, that phrase, here I stand, I can do no other, or however you translate it, Didman McCulloch, in his book on the Reformation, says that's the motto, not just of the Reformation, but of all modern Western civilization.
是的。
Yeah.
活出我的真实。
Living my truth.
是的。
Yeah.
就是这样。
That's what it is.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Exactly.
是的。
Yeah.
这就是它产生回响的原因。
And that's why it reverberates.
这就是它具有如此影响力的原因。
That's why it has the influence it does.
这意味着，在人们理解这场对抗时，路德而非皇帝才是中心人物。
And it means that Luther, rather than the emperor, is center stage in the way that people understand this confrontation.
但在他听到路德发表声明两天后，查理五世就回复了。
But two days after he's heard Luther make the statement, Charles the fifth writes his reply.
他说，他知道，自己始终遵循前任皇帝树立的榜样。
And he says that, you know, he is staying true to the example set by his predecessors as emperor.
他将永远是天主教信仰、其仪式、法令、规章和习俗等的捍卫者。
He will always be a defender of the Catholic faith, of its rituals and its decrees and its ordinances and its customs and so on.
因此，他确认了对路德的绝罚。
And so he confirms Luther's excommunication.
然而，他是一个言而有信的人。
Nevertheless, he is a man of his word.
他曾给予路德安全通行的保证，因此他会坚守这一承诺。
He had given Luther safe passage, and so he will hold to that.
但路德只有三周时间，之后将被逮捕并处决。
But Luther has three weeks, and after that, he will be arrested and liquidated.
而这正是他所使用的措辞。
And that is the word that he used.
对。
Right.
我觉得这样很公平，汤姆。
I think that's fair, Tom.
我觉得这体现了查理五世的品格。
I think that reflects well on Charles the fifth.
议会继续进行。
And the diet carries on.
在5月26日，也就是议会结束后的第二天，查理颁布了《沃尔姆斯敕令》，规定任何人都不得为路德提供庇护或食物，也不得购买、阅读、购买或印刷他的著作。
And on the May 26, so this is the day after the diet ends, Charles issues the edict of Worms, which is that no one is to offer Luther shelter or food, and no one is to buy or read or purchase or print his works.
对。
Right.
不久之后，一份由路德支持者发布的宣传册像野火般传播开来，称宗教裁判官和教士们收集了路德的所有书籍并将其焚毁。
And a pamphlet is published shortly after this that kind of sweeps like wildfire by Luther supporters saying that the inquisitors and verbs had gathered up all Luther's books and burnt them.
但在封面之上，有一幅路德的画像，而这些书并没有烧掉。
But on the top, there was an image of Luther and that this didn't burn.
哦，这确实发生了。
Oh, that definitely happened.
这确实发生了。
That definitely happened.
你会记得，在你读过的段落中，教皇特使说人们很快就会称他为圣人。
And you'll remember in the passage you've read the papal legate saying people will be calling him a saint soon.
我的意思是，这种奇迹般的事情——比如画像不会被烧毁——其实很矛盾。
I mean, the paradox is that all this kind of miraculous stuff of, you know, images not burning.
我的意思是，这非常符合宗教改革前的特征，可以说。
I mean, this is this is very pre reformation, one one might say.
是的。
Yeah.
但同时，多米尼克，我想重申你之前提到的一个观点：实际上，问题在于路德怎么知道他所说的是对的？
But also, Dominic, just to say and to reiterate a point that you made earlier about how really, the question is, how does Luther know that that what he's saying is right?
因为查理五世在回应中说，他并不自称拥有深厚的神学知识。
Because what Charles the fifth says in his response is that, you know, he doesn't pretend to deep theological knowledge.
他不是像路德那样的神学和圣经教授。
He's not a professor of theology and the bible as as Luther is.
但他不理解，一个修士怎么可能在某个观点上是正确的，而根据查理的说法，这个观点意味着整个基督教在过去的千年乃至现在都一直、并将永远处于错误之中。
But he doesn't understand how a single monk could be correct in an opinion, which, as Charles puts it, according to which all of Christianity will be and will always have been in error, both in the past thousand years and even more in the present.
我的意思是，这是一个非常公正的观点。
I mean, that's such a fair point.
对吧？
Right?
因为查理五世完全可以这么说：听好了，伙计。
Because Charles the fifth could reasonably say, listen, fellow.
基督教就是基督教教会所定义的那样。
Christianity is what the Christian church says it is.
就这样，没得商量。
End of story.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Right.
所以，如果整个基督教教会说，这就是基督教，而你说，不是。
So if the whole Christian church says, this is Christianity, and you say, no.
不是的。
It isn't.
是别的东西。
It's something else.
你从定义上就是错的，因为教会说了算。
You're by definition wrong because the church decides.
是的。
Yeah.
多米尼克，有趣的是，有一位名叫约翰·科克莱斯的人文主义学者在沃尔姆斯，他支持路德。
And, Dominic, what's interesting is that there is a a humanist scholar called Johann Kokleis who is in Worms, and he's come sympathetic to Luther.
他对此感到担忧。
And he's he's worrying about this.
他想知道路德的想法是什么。
He wants to know kind of what Luther thinks.
所以4月24日，当路德还在沃尔姆斯时，他主动受邀到路德的房间共进晚餐，并发现自己坐在路德和选帝侯腓特烈三世之间，后者也在场。
So on the April 24, while Luther is still in Worms, he gets himself invited to dinner in Luther's rooms, and he finds himself sitting between Luther and Frederick the Wise, the elector, who's there as well.
他向路德追问这一点，但路德并没有给出令人信服的回答。
And he presses Luther on this point, and Luther doesn't really give him convincing answers.
于是，晚餐后路德回到自己的住处，科克拉乌斯跟了上去。
And so Luther, after dinner, goes back to his quarters, and Koklaeus follows him.
这正是那种
So it's exactly the kind of behavior that
你绝对不希望看到的行为。
you really don't want.
所以这就是我期望神学家们应有的表现。
So that's how I expect theologians to behave to prefer.
但路德允许科克拉乌斯进来。
But Luther Luther allows Koklaeus in.
科克拉乌斯拉开斗篷，展示自己没有携带任何武器。
Koklaeus pulls back his cloak and shows that he doesn't have a sword or anything.
科克拉乌斯继续追问，说你知道吗，你怎么知道你对圣经的解释是正确的？
And Koklaeus keeps pressing him and saying, you know, how do you know that your interpretation of scripture is right?
当然，每个人都会有不同的解释。
Surely, everyone will have different interpretations.
是的。
Yeah.
路德的回答是，上帝话语的含义是清晰明了的。
And Luther's answer is that the meaning of God's word is plain.
如果圣灵启迪你，你就会明白。
If the spirit illumines you, then you will you will know.
你会理解正确的。
You'll get it right.
汤姆，对不起。
Tom, I'm sorry.
这太明显了。
This is such obvious.
胡说。
Tosh.
好吧。
Okay.
嗯，凯克拉乌斯站在你这边。
Well, Keclaeus is with you.
他同意。
He agrees.
他们之间的争论变得如此激烈，以至于两人彻底决裂。
And the argument between them becomes so intense that the two of them fall out irrevocably.
凯克拉乌斯从路德的仰慕者变成了他最顽固的敌人之一。
And Keclaeus, from being an admirer of Luther, becomes one of his most inveterate enemies.
他所撰写的关于路德的记载如此恶毒，又如此受路德敌人的欢迎，以至于影响了天主教徒对路德的看法长达数个世纪。
And the accounts that he will write of Luther are so abusive and so popular with Luther's enemies that they will influence how Catholics see Luther for for for centuries and centuries to come.
是的
Yeah.
但我同意。
But I I agree.
他聚焦于一个关键问题，而这一问题在后续事件中将证明是路德乃至整个宗教改革的核心。
He has kind of zoomed in on what, as events will show, is the big issue for Luther and indeed for the entire reformation.
实际上，从某种意义上说，这是路德与单一宗教改革运动紧密关联的最高潮。
And, really, in a way, this is the high point of the identification of Luther with a single reformation.
直到此时，他就像猫王之类的人物。
Up until this point, he has been like kind of Elvis or someone.
他是主导人物。
He is the dominant figure.
我简直不敢相信你把他比作猫王。
I can't believe you compared him with Elvis.
我的意思是，没错。
I mean Right.
所以猫王是国王。
So Elvis is The king.
国王。
The king.
他主宰着摇滚乐的世界。
He dominates the world of rock and roll.
然后，当然，他被征召入伍了。
And then, of course, he gets drafted.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
他从舞台上消失了。
And he vanishes from the scene.
路德的经历也差不多类似，你知道的，他在皇帝的特使逮捕他之前有三周的宽限期。
And something rather similar to that happens to Luther because, you know, he has this three week period of grace before the agents of the emperor will arrest him.
他正返回维滕贝格，离开沃尔姆斯。
He's heading back to Wittenberg, and he's leaving Worms.
他是个英雄，也是个逃犯。
He's a hero, and he's an outlaw.
他在沃尔姆斯议会之后的名气甚至超过了之前，成为无数小册子的主角，这些小册子将他与皇帝激烈对抗的消息传遍了整个德语世界乃至更远的地方。
Even more famous than he had been before the Diet, the star of countless pamphlets spreading news of his great confrontation with the emperor across the whole of the German speaking world and beyond.
接着，出现了惊人的转折。
And then comes this extraordinary twist.
当他途经图林根的一条峡谷，正往维滕贝格返回途中，突然遭到伏击。
He's halfway back to Wittenberg going through Thuringia through a ravine when suddenly he gets ambushed.
一队骑马的人拦住了他。
A posse of horsemen confront him.
他们带着十字弓。
They've got crossbows.
他们将十字弓对准路德和他的同伴，绑架了路德以及与他同行的两人，把他们拽上马背，飞驰而去，马蹄声渐渐消失，只留下一片尘土，无人知晓是谁掳走了路德，他去了哪里，命运如何。
They point them at Luther and his companions, and they abduct Luther and two of the people who are traveling with Luther, put them onto their horses, gallop away, the hoofbeats fade, nothing left but dust, and there is no clue as to who has taken Luther, where he has gone, what his fate is.
事实是
And it is the case that
是的。
Mhmm.
欧洲最著名的人从地球上消失了。
The most famous man in Europe has vanished from the face of the earth.
太棒了，汤姆，这个悬念真让人揪心。
What an unbelievable cliffhanger, Tom.
场景太精彩了。
Such exciting scenes.
但对听众来说，好消息是，广告结束后回来就能知道马丁·路德发生了什么。
But the good news for the listeners is they just need to return after the break, and they'll find out what has happened to Martin Luther.
大家好，欢迎收听《读书俱乐部》，这是由我多米尼克·桑布鲁克主持的Goal Hanger全新播客。
Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Book Club, a new podcast from Goal Hanger, hosted by me, Dominic Sambrook.
还有我，塔比莎·赛勒斯。
And me, Tabitha Cyrus.
你们中的一些人可能知道，我之前一直是多米尼克在《历史其余部分》节目的制片人，去年我们还做了一个关于书籍的迷你系列。
As some of you may know, I've been Dominic's producer on The Rest is History, and we even did a miniseries last year about all things books.
由于我们非常享受那次合作，我们决定把它做成一档独立的节目。
And since we enjoyed that so much, we have decided to roll it out as its own show.
所以它将在每周二播出。
So it'll be coming out every Tuesday.
每次我们会选择一本不同的书，深入探讨它们背后的所有故事。
We'll be doing a different book each time and digging into all the stories behind them.
我们将探讨一些有史以来最伟大、最著名书籍背后的历史背景。
And we are gonna be talking about the historical context behind some of the greatest and most famous books of all time.
我们会深入挖掘这些作品背后非凡的人物、故事中的意外情节，同时也会逐步解开每本书的剧情，深入探究其内涵。
We're gonna be digging into the remarkable people behind them, the unexpected stories behind the stories, and also unraveling the plot of each book a bit and delving into the depths of the story.
你不需要读过这些书就能收听本节目，但我们希望，听完每一集后，你都能假装自己读过它们。
Now you don't have to have read the books to listen to the show, but we hope that by the end of each episode, you will be able to pretend to people that you've read them.
这才是关键。
That is the key thing.
无论你是否读过这些书，我们都希望你能学到许多引人入胜的趣闻。
And either way, whether you read them or not, we hope that you'll learn lots of fascinating facts.
你会读到许多精彩的故事，也许还会听到塔比那奇怪的笑声。
You'll read lots of great stories, and maybe Tabby, the odd laugh.
我们将探讨像《呼啸山庄》和《弗兰肯斯坦》这样扣人心弦的哥特式爱情小说，以及像《了不起的盖茨比》或《小妇人》这样的经典作品。
We will be looking at thrilling gothic bodice rippers like Wuthering Heights and Frankenstein, as well as iconic stories like The Great Gatsby or Little Women.
此外还有一些更现代的作品。
Then also some more modern stuff.
比如《权力的游戏》《正常人》《饥饿游戏》《哈姆内特》，各种令人兴奋的故事。
So Game of Thrones, Normal People, The Hunger Games, Hamnet, all manner of exciting stories.
所以，请在你收听播客的任何平台加入我们，一起探索与书籍有关的一切。
So please join us on our journey into all things books wherever you get your podcasts.
只需每周二搜索‘读书会’，希望那时能在那里见到你。
Just search for the book club every Tuesday, and, hopefully, we will see you there.
欢迎回到《历史的其余部分》。
Welcome back to the rest is history.
我们在上半部分以一个非凡的悬念收尾。
We ended the first half with an extraordinary cliffhanger.
汤姆，手持十字弓的人们带着被绑架的路德，策马扬尘而去。
Tom, men with crossbows riding off into the dust with Luther, kidnapped.
是谁带走了他，又是为了什么？
Who has taken him and why?
嗯，多米尼克，他是被萨克森选帝侯智者弗雷德里克的代理人绑架的，他们把他带到了一个路德非常熟悉的地方。
Well, Dominic, he's been abducted by agents of Frederick the Wise, the elector of Saxony, And they have taken him to a place that Luther knows very well.
那就是艾森纳赫，他曾在那里上学，具体来说就是瓦尔特堡，那座俯瞰着城镇的宏伟城堡。
It's Isaac where he had been to school and specifically to the Wartburg, the great castle that broods over the town.
他被带到那里，并伪装成一名骑士。
And he's taken there, and he gets disguised as a knight.
于是他脱下了他的法衣。
So he takes off his cassock.
他甚至穿上了护裆。
He even gets to wear a codpiece.
这真是一次惊人的转变。
So an amazing transformation.
他留长了头发。
He grows his hair out.
于是剃了秃顶，留起胡子，看起来像个骑士。
So the tonsil goes, grows a beard, and he looks like a a knight.
因此，他的看守们称他为容克格奥尔格，也就是骑士格奥尔格。
So he he's called Junker Georg, Junker George, knight George by his keepers.
但他并不像个称职的骑士。
And he he doesn't make a very convincing knight.
他偶尔被带出去打猎，却从马上摔下来，还为一只野兔哭泣。
He occasionally gets taken out hunting and he falls off his horse and he sobs over the hare.
有一次，他捡起一只野兔，用斗篷把它裹起来，结果狗群冲上来，天哪。
There's occasion where he picks up a hare and shelters it in his cloak and the dogs just recup and Oh god.
它们一把揪住兔子，咬得粉碎。
Kinda grab the hair and chew it to pieces.
但他还是被允许外出。
But he is allowed out.
他并不是被完全关起来的。
He's not just locked up completely.
他可以外出，但必须受到严密的监督。
He is allowed out, but under very close supervision.
大多数时候，他被关在城堡里，因为显然，弗雷德里克不希望皇帝知道他负责看管一名被定罪的异端。
Most of the time, he's kept in the castle because, obviously, Frederick doesn't want the emperor to know that he is responsible for looking after a condemned heretic.
因此，路德大部分时间都被困在房间里，那间房很小，天花板很高，家具极其简陋，他陷入了深沉的内省，而我们知道他很喜欢这样。
So most of the time, Luther is stuck in his room, which is very small, has a high ceiling, very plain furniture, and he's plunged into kind of gloomy introspection, and we know He loves that.
你知道，从他当修士的时候就是这样。
You know, from his time as a monk.
但他是个特别喜欢忧郁的人。
But he's a great man for gloomy.
是的。
Yeah.
他需要一些更好的帮助，多米尼克。
He needs a bit of better help, Dominic.
是的。
Yeah.
他确实需要。
He does.
这正是他所需要的。
That's really what he needs.
他非常需要。
He totally does.
所以，像往常一样，当他不开心时，他会开始沉迷于什么？
And so as is always the case when he's unhappy, what does he start obsessing about?
哦，汤姆，让我惊讶一下。
Oh, Tom, amaze me.
他开始 obsessively 关注他的肠道。
He starts obsessing about his bowels.
对。
Right.
所以他确实会给亲密的朋友写信，满篇都是抱怨便秘，说他连续好多天都便秘。
And so he does write letters to close friends, and all he does is moan on about his constipation, saying, I'm constipated for days on an end.
他还对最终排便时那种极度痛苦的体验做了非常生动的描述，我敢肯定所有当母亲的听众都会对此深有共鸣。
And he has this very vivid description of how agonizing it is finally to get released that I'm sure all mothers listening to this will really enjoy.
他说：‘我现在像产妇一样痛苦地坐着，被撕裂得鲜血淋漓。’
He says, now I sit in agony like a woman in childbirth, ripped up and bloody.
天啊。
God.
这便秘也太严重了吧，
That's pretty intense constipation,
对吧？
isn't it?
他显然把这当成是魔鬼在迫害他。
And he sees this obviously as being persecution by the devil.
所以他几乎每天晚上都写，每当我醒来，他就迫不及待地想和我争论。
And so he he writes it almost every night when I wake up, there he is itching to argue with me.
这正是那个著名故事的由来，说路德朝墨水瓶扔过去，是的。
And this is the period that generates the famous story of Luther throwing an ink well, an ink pot Yeah.
他朝魔鬼扔墨水瓶，据说那墨水痕迹至今仍能在瓦尔特堡看到。
At the devil, and supposedly the ink is is available to be seen in the Vartburg.
这并不真实。
This is not true.
好的。
Okay.
我的意思是，魔鬼当然不可能在那里，他也没朝魔鬼扔墨水瓶。
I mean, certainly the devil wasn't there, but he didn't throw an ink pot at it.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但路德晚年确实证实过其他一些故事。
But there are other stories that Luther does substantiate later in life.
有一个故事说，魔鬼化作一只狗溜进他的房间，路德一把抓起那只狗，从窗户扔了出去。
And there is a story that the devil comes into his room disguised as a dog, and Luther picks the dog up and hurls it out of the window.
所以，汤姆，我对此印象深刻。
So, Tom, I was really struck by this.
这是关于阿特和路德最让我感兴趣的一点，因为我们在他历史的其他部分已经讨论过其他打狗的人。
This is the one thing that most interests me about Art and Luther because we have talked about other dog murderers in the rest of his history.
杰里米·索普，汤姆，那个腐败的无赖，前自由党领袖。
Jeremy Thorpe, Tom, the CAD bounder and erstwhile leader of the Liberal Party.
不过，他应该是节目的朋友吧。
Friend of the show, though, I think.
绝对是节目的朋友。
Very much a friend of the show.
还有杰克奥·麦克卡考。
And Jacko MacCacow.
另一位节目的朋友。
Another friend of the show.
那只在威斯敏斯特斗狗场击败狗的斗猴。
The fighting monkey who defeated a dog at the Westminster Pit.
实际上，那里有一些有趣的相似之处。
And, actually, there are some interesting parallels there.
所以，就像马丁·路德一样，杰克奥·麦克卡考也充满了许多谜团。
So Jacko MacCacow, as with Martin Luther, there's a lot of mystery.
我们不知道他到底是什么种类的猴子。
We don't know what kind of monkey he was.
而关于路德，他的精神危机对我们来说也相当模糊，不是吗？
And with Luther, some of his spiritual crisis is obscure to us, isn't it?
马丁·路德，你曾非常有力地谈到过他与技术的关系，以及他如何运用开创性的技术。
Martin Luther, you talked very powerfully about him and technology and his use of pioneering technology.
当然，杰里米·索普也是 hovercraft 的狂热爱好者。
And, of course, Jeremy Thorpe was a great enthusiast for the hovercraft.
对 hovercraft 的爱好者。
For the hovercraft.
是的。
Yes.
这些相似之处正在不断累积。
The parallels are piling up.
但是，多米尼克，我想说，他和杰克·奥马查科至少有一个不同之处，那就是路德非常爱狗。
But, Dominic, I would say one way in which, certainly, he's not similar to Jack O'Machaco is that Luther is a great dog lover.
我认为这正是这个故事令人无比悲伤的原因。
And I think that this is actually what makes this story terribly sad.
真的吗？
Really?
尤其是对那只狗来说。
Especially for the dog.
是的。
Yeah.
但对路德来说也是如此。
But also for Luther.
我的意思是，至少那只狗死了，事情就结束了。
I mean, at least, you know, the dog is, blah, flat, and then it's all over.
但对于卢瑟来说，痛苦仍在继续，因为他深爱着狗。
But for Luther, the agony continues because he adores dogs.
哦，他才是真正的受害者，是吗？
Oh, he's the real victim, is he?
他才是真正的受害者。
He's the real victim.
所以他谈到狗时说，我们的主上帝赋予了人类最美好、最普遍的礼物，我觉得这太可爱了。
So so he says about dogs that our lord god has made the best gifts the most common, which I think is adorable.
他还有一件非常温馨的事：看到狗摇尾巴时，他会说：‘狗啊，愿你得安慰。’
And there's a very sweet thing that he sees a dog wagging its tail, and he says, be thou comforted, dog.
你也会在复活时拥有一条小小的金色尾巴。
Thou too in resurrection shall have a little golden tail.
这是内疚在作祟。
That's guilt talking.
这确实是内疚在作祟，汤姆。
That is guilt talking, Tom.
不。
No.
不是的。
It's not.
不。
No.
不是的。
It's not.
他不会这么说。
He wouldn't say that.
他可不是那种臭名昭著的、像里纳那样杀狗的人。
He wasn't a notorious Rinker style dog murderer.
哦，我真希望能像我的小狗盯着肉那样祈祷。
Oh, that I could only pray the way that my puppy stares at meat.
我的意思是，不爱狗的人是说不出这种话的。
I mean, no one who didn't love dogs would come out with that.
胡说八道。
Rubbish.
这太阴险了。
That's sinister.
总之，多米尼克，这是魔鬼的错。
Well, anyway, Dominic, it's the fault of the devil.
这不是路德的错。
It's not Luther's fault.
是魔鬼在迫害他。
It's the devil persecuting him.
杰里米·索普在法庭上对坎特利法官就是这么说的。
That's what Jeremy Thorpe said in court to mister justice Cantley.
不。
No.
此外，路德似乎是‘波尔特盖斯特’这个词的创造者，指的是一个看不见的幽灵，会把东西扔来扔去。
Also, Luther is the person who seems to have coined the word poltergeist, so an invisible ghost that that throws things around.
真的吗？
Really?
路德创造了这个词？
Luther coins the word?
是的。
Yes.
我想是的。
I think so.
哇。
Wow.
罗杰·克拉克在他的精彩著作《幽灵自然史》中就是这样写的，我没有任何理由怀疑他。
That's what Roger Clark writes in his brilliant book, A Natural History of Ghosts, and I have no reason to doubt him.
对。
Yeah.
但路德创造这个词是因为他实际上并不相信幽灵，因为幽灵据说是来自炼狱的。
But Luther coins the word because he doesn't actually believe in ghosts because ghosts supposedly come from purgatory.
对。
Right.
路德不相信炼狱。
Luther doesn't believe in purgatory.
所以，实际上，这个向他扔坚果的波尔泰格斯特显然是魔鬼又来了。
So, actually, this poltergeist who's chucking nuts at him is clearly the devil again.
波尔泰格斯特在向他扔坚果。
The poltergeist is throwing nuts at him.
他杀害了狗，人们还在向他扔坚果。
He's killing dogs, and people are throwing nuts at him.
得了吧。
Come on.
他伪装成狗出现，然后扔坚果。
Well, he's coming in disguised as a dog, and he's throwing nuts.
因此，路德对这件事感到非常不安也就不足为奇了。
So it's not surprising that Luther is very unsettled by this.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为他是个内心困扰的人，这么说公平。
He's a troubled man, I think, is fair to say.
但他说他有一种安全的方法，没错。
But he says he has a fail safe method Right.
当祈祷无法驱赶魔鬼时，他有办法把魔鬼赶走。
For getting rid of the devil when prayer fails to get rid of the devil.
我引用路德的话说：我放个屁就把他赶跑了。
And I quote Luther, I chase him away with a fart.
对。
Yeah.
所以便秘也不是全无好处。
So the constipation isn't all bad.
汤姆，他脑子里发生的事，我们根本无法想象。
There's stuff going on in his mind, Tom, that we can't even begin to imagine.
但我的意思是，再强调一下，这些都算是些粗俗的举动，但对路德来说，魔鬼是真实存在的。
But, I mean, just to reiterate, I mean, all this is kind of knockabout stuff, but the devil is intensely real for Luther.
是的。
Yeah.
他与魔鬼的斗争非常深刻。
And he is wrestling with with the devil very profoundly.
而他最终应对这场危机的方法——魔鬼钻进他的狗体内，朝他扔坚果，诸如此类的事情——
And ultimately, his solution to this crisis, the fact that the devil is coming in his dog and throwing nuts at him and all kinds of things
对。
Right.
就是我認為在這種情況下我們所有人都會做的：翻譯《新約》。
Is the one that I think that we would all do in his situation, which is to translate the New Testament.
當然。
Of course.
我第一個想到的就是這個。
It's the first thing I thought of.
你不会这么做吗？
Wouldn't you do that?
是的。
Yes.
当然了。
Absolutely.
我认为，如果你得不到更好的帮助的话
I think, again, if you can't get better help
对。
Yeah.
那就翻译《新约》吧。
Translate the New Testament.
这也不是《新约》第一次被翻译成德语了。
And it's not the first time that the New Testament has been translated into German.
自古腾堡出现以来，德语版的《新约》就已经被印刷过，并且实际上重印了13次。
Since Gutenberg appeared on the scene, a German translation has been printed and has actually been reprinted 13 times.
所以，你知道，它肯定是存在的。
So, you know, it's definitely out there.
但路德是第一个直接从希腊文而不是从拉丁文翻译的人，也就是从原文翻译。
But Luther is the first to translate it directly from Greek rather than from Latin, so from the the original language.
是的。
Yeah.
他花了十一个星期完成，这部译本影响巨大。
And it takes him eleven weeks, and it is massively influential.
我不是德语母语者，也没有资格这么说，但我了解到，这部译本在德语中的分量，类似于英语中的《钦定版圣经》。
You know, I'm not in any way, not actually speaking German really qualified to say this, but I gather that it, you know, it has a heft in German similar to the King James Bible in English.
哦，这影响巨大。
Oh, it's massive.
但《钦定版圣经》语言非常庄重恢宏
But whereas the King James Bible is all very sonorous
对。
Yeah.
到目前为止，听众可能不会对路德的译本更加质朴这一事实感到惊讶。
It may not surprise listeners at this point to learn that apparently Luther's translation is much earthier.
确实很质朴。
It is earthy.
约翰，我查过了，汤姆。
John, I looked it up, Tom.
路德的写作风格非常简短，这在德语写作中是不寻常的。
And Luther writes in very short, unusually for somebody writing in German.
他使用极短的句子和尽可能简短的词汇。
He writes very short sentences and using the shortest possible words.
目的是为了便于理解。
And designed to be accessible.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
他后来写了一首著名的赞美诗，《Ein Fester Burg ist ein Gott》。
The very famous thing is that he wrote later on a hymn, Ein Festerburg is eine Gott.
坚固的堡垒是上帝。
A strong fortress is Agot.
用词极其简短，非常容易理解。
And the very, very short words and very kinda easily comprehensible.
这又是路德的平民主义，对吧？
That's Luther's populism again, isn't it?
是的。
Yeah.
你可以理解为什么他成了德国民族主义者眼中的重要人物，因为他某种程度上创造了德语，就像乔叟之于英语。
You can see why he became a an important figure for kinda German nationalists because he invents German, the language, to some degree, as Chaucer does with English.
口语化语言。
The vernacular.
对。
Yes.
他塑造了白话文。
He shapes the vernacular.
是的。
Yeah.
你看，我认为路德身上有一件被严重低估的事情，而你非常出色地指出了这一点：他不仅仅是在对神学家和权贵们说话，而是用普通男女都能理解的语言进行交流。
And you see, I think one of the really, really underappreciated things about Luther, which you have brought out really brilliantly, is that he's not just talking to theologians and bigwigs and stuff, but he's actually talking in terms that are comprehensible to the man and woman in the street.
没错。
Right.
我也认为他激励了人们用这种风格写作。
I I think inspiring people as well to write in that style.
所以即使他在瓦尔特堡期间没有出版任何作品，
So even while he's in the Wartburg, he's not publishing anything.
但人们却出版了小册子，传播他的思想，并以模仿他那种简单朴实德语的方式进行表达。
But people are putting out pamphlets that are articulating his ideas and doing it in in ways that echo his mastery of kind of simple plain German.
但传播的不仅仅是文字，还有图像。
But it's not just word that is being promulgated, but the image.
所以，打个现代的比方，路德不仅仅是在推特上。
So to kind of give a modern analogy, Luther is not just on Twitter.
他还在Instagram上。
He is also on Instagram.
而他在瓦尔特堡隐居期间，其思想和形象得以广泛传播，一个重要原因是众多插画师也纷纷加入。
And this is also hugely important in promulgating his message and his image while he is in isolation in the Wartburg is that illustrators are piling in as well.
这一视觉风格的灵感来自卢卡斯·克拉纳赫，他是维滕贝格腓特烈宫廷的画师，与路德成为挚友，并从一开始就发挥了关键作用，塑造了路德的品牌形象。
And the inspiration for this is Lukas Cranach, who is Frederick's court painter in Wittenberg, who has become a very good friend of Luther and who, right from the beginning, has played a key role in branding Luther.
安德鲁·佩蒂格鲁写了一本精彩的书，名为《品牌路德》，对此做了极好的探讨。
And there's a brilliant book called Brand Luther by Andrew Pettigree that explores this wonderfully.
克拉纳赫在视觉表达方面堪称大师。
And Cranach is is a master of everything visual.
就连路德出版的小册子和书籍，也是由克拉纳赫负责设计封面。
So even the pamphlets and books that Luther is putting out, it's Cranach who frames them.
他为这些出版物设计了独特的装帧，使它们在书店中脱颖而出。
So he gives them a kind of distinctive binding so that they will stand out on the bookstore.
而且你知道，字体和排版都非常清晰、精准。
And, you know, the font and the lettering and everything is is very clear and precise.
所以这就像企鹅经典系列一样，你一看到这种小册子就能立刻认出是路德的作品。
So it's a bit like, a penguin classic or something that you will immediately recognize a pamphlet by Luther if you see it.
没错。
Right.
但他也在绘制路德的肖像。
But he's also doing portraits of Luther.
那幅据说没有被烧掉的路德肖像，是的。
So that portrait of Luther that supposedly didn't burn Yeah.
这是一幅著名的路德肖像，描绘他作为修士，显得非常虔诚、苦修。
It's a famous image of Luther as a monk looking very pious, ascetic.
他的头顶上有一只鸽子象征着圣灵。
He's got the spirit in the form of a dove over his head.
我明白你的意思。
I know what you mean.
是的
Yeah.
这进一步塑造了路德形象与其言论相辅相成的图景。
And this promulgates the image of Luther as an accompaniment to his words.
人们都知道路德长什么样。
People know what Luther looks like.
当然，在印刷术出现之前，这样做会困难得多，对吧？
And, of course, this would have been harder to do in an age before printing, wouldn't it?
你不可能传播这么多图像。
You wouldn't have been able to distribute so many images.
的
Of
当然。
course.
完全正确。
Completely.
更不用说这么多文本了。
Let alone so many texts.
是的。
Yes.
当然。
Absolutely.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yes.
当路德在瓦尔特堡期间，克拉纳赫与年轻的希腊语教授梅兰希通合作，出版了一部连环漫画。
And while Luther is in the Wartburg, Cranach teams up with Melancton, who is the very young professor of Greek, and they publish a strip cartoon.
这是一组13幅木刻版画，将基督的生活与教皇的生活方式形成鲜明对比，极大地贬低了后者。
So it's 13 woodcuts that contrast the life of Christ with the lifestyle of the pope very much to the
对后者极为不利。
To the detriment of the latter.
对教皇不利。
To the detriment of the pope.
是的。
Yeah.
但不仅如此，他们还大量制作了充满攻击性的漫画。
But even more than that, they really pile in with abusive cartoons.
所以卡洛斯·埃雷，他写了一部关于这一整个时期的精彩综述，书名耐人寻味地叫做《宗教改革》。
So Carlos Eyre, who's written a brilliant survey of this entire period called tellingly reformations.
也就是说，存在着多种宗教改革。
So the idea that there are multiple reformations.
我的意思是，他说，福音派——路德的追随者——发明了讽刺漫画。
I mean, he says the evangelical, so the followers of Luther, invented the satirical cartoon.
他们以图像作为贬低和论战的媒介，其规模在历史上前所未有。
And they use images as a medium of descent and polemic on a scale that has never been paralleled in history.
在这些漫画中，路德是英雄，而他的对手则成为被嘲笑的对象。
And in these cartoons, Luther is the hero, and his opponents are objects of ridicule.
对。
Right.
毫不意外，因为路德是这一切的灵感来源，这些漫画中充满了粪便内容。
And unsurprisingly, because Luther is the inspiration for this, there is a lot of excrement in these cartoons.
是的。
Yeah.
它们真的非常粪便成性，不是吗？
They're incredibly scatological, aren't they?
有一幅著名的漫画描绘了魔鬼在排泄修士。
So there's one famous one where the devil is shitting out monks.
他在排泄修士。
He's excreting monks.
谢谢你的分享，汤姆。
Thanks for that, Tom.
但还有另一幅卡洛斯·埃雷尔提到的漫画，针对的是约翰·科克利斯。嗯。
But there's another one that Carlos Eyre writes about which targets Johann Kokleis Mhmm.
那位曾与路德在弗姆斯交谈的人文主义者。
The humanist who had been chatting to Luther at firms.
我来读一下艾尔对它的描述。
And I'll read Eyre's description of it.
这是所有宗教改革图像中最污秽、最放肆的一幅，堪称抹黑手段的极致，将约翰·科克勒斯的作品贬为粪便。
One of the most obscenely outrageous of all reformation images, the very epitome of smear tactics, reduces the work of Johann Kocleus to fecal matter.
在这幅图像中，魔鬼将粪便排入科克勒斯的口中，而科克勒斯则从臀部排出书籍。
In this image, the devil defecates into Kokleis' mouth, and Kokleis in turn excretes books out of his rear end.
魔鬼们欢快地跳舞庆祝这一过程，一名修士和一位王子捡起这些书籍，一群旁观者有的捂着鼻子，满脸厌恶地注视着这一切。
As devils gleefully dance in celebration of this process, a monk and a prince pick up the books, and a crowd of bystanders, some covering their noses, look on in disgust.
是的。
Yeah.
我现在正在看这幅图。
I'm looking at the image now.
我的意思是，你描述得非常公正。
I mean, you've described it very fairly.
我的意思是，这 literally 就是正在发生的事。
I mean, this is literally what happens.
一个可怕的恶魔正把排泄物灌进这个人的嘴里，
A horrendous devil is opening his bowels into the mouth of this bloke,
而他自己，正如你所说，正在排出书籍。
and then he himself is, as you say, excreting books.
完全没有任何想象力可言。
Nothing is left of the imagination whatsoever.
我们在社交媒体上也熟悉这种现象，谩骂和侮辱性图像变得越来越极端，因为似乎有一股兴奋的浪潮，
And we are familiar with this with our own social media, that abuse and abusive images become more and more abusive because there's a kind of tidal wave, I suppose, of excitement
对。
Right.
那些觉得自己参与其中的人会被卷入这种狂欢。
That people who feel themselves to be part of amusement get gathered up on.
如果你有能力通过推文、图片或其他方式传播你的观点和极端言论，那你就会这么做。
And if you have the means to propagate your opinions and your hot takes by means of tweets or images or whatever, then you take it.
而这一行为的后果，反过来，可能是那些最初激发它的人被抛在了后面。
And, of course, the consequence of that in turn is that maybe the people who've inspired it can be left behind.
好的。
Okay.
这种情况尤其明显，比如路德，你实际上相当于被踢出了社交媒体。
And this is particularly the case, you know, if, like, Luther, you've been effectively the equivalent of being kicked off social media.
是的。
Yeah.
被锁起来，魔鬼在四处扔坚果。
Locked up with the devil throwing nuts around.
对。
Yes.
没错。
Exactly.
因此，当路德在瓦尔特堡期间，这一现象的后果在他在维滕贝格的广大支持者中清晰可见。
And so the consequences of this while Luther is in the Wartburg are very visibly seen in his great base in Wittenberg.
在维滕贝格，当他离开期间，人们受到他敢于对抗皇帝和教皇这一形象的鼓舞。
So in Wittenberg, while he is away, people are inspired by the image of him standing up to the emperor and to the pope.
维滕贝格的修士和修女们开始离开修道院，放弃他们的誓言，有些人甚至结了婚。
And the monks and nuns in Wittenberg start to leave their cloisters and abandon their vows, and some of them even get married.
人们感到维滕贝格乃至更广泛地区的修道制度正在开始崩溃。
And there's a sense that monasticism in Wittenberg and beyond is starting to implode.
学生们，同样地，这一点我们也非常熟悉，他们被这股热潮所卷入。
And students and, again, this is there's something that we are familiar with as well, that they get caught up in the excitement of it all.
他们开始针对弥撒。
And they start targeting masses.
他们开始砸毁教堂里的圣像，并攻击对圣母和圣徒的崇拜。
They start smashing images in churches, and they start targeting veneration of the virgin and the saints.
这一系列事件真正爆发于1521年12月，也就是圣诞节前夕。
And it really starts kicking off in December 1521, so in the buildup to Christmas.
带头的是路德的朋友和仰慕者安德烈亚斯·卡尔施塔特，他当时是维滕贝格的校长，曾陪同路德参加与约翰·艾克在莱比锡的著名辩论。
And the guy who takes the lead is Luther's friend and admirer, Andreas Karlstadt, who is the guy who is the chancellor, who had accompanied Luther to the great debate with Johann Eck in Leipzig Yeah.
他一直是一位谨慎而冷静的学者，但如今却展现出一种激进分子的面貌。
And had always been a kind of restrained and sober scholar, but he now emerges as a kind of firebrand.
而且，这就像一位备受尊敬的学者突然在推特上发疯，肆意辱骂他人。
And, again, it's kind of like the highly respected scholar who suddenly goes berserk on Twitter, abusing people left, right, and center.
是的。
Yeah.
这正是我在想的。
That's exactly what I was thinking.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我想到，这种比较显然与过去五到十年间那种大规模的、充满激情的运动、 activism 以及社会正义话题的兴起有关。
So I was thinking the comparison is obviously with the great sort of upsurge of kinda capital e enthusiasm in the last five to ten years and activism and sort of the talk of social justice and stuff.
曾经那些非常枯燥的学者们
And you would have people who previously would be very boring academics
是的。
Yeah.
突然找到了自己的声音。
Who suddenly find their voice.
然后，当然了，他们是在讨好观众，对吧？
And and then, of course, they're playing to the gallery, aren't they?
所以他们自我激进化。
So they self radicalize.
是的。
Yeah.
他们获得点赞，想要更多的点赞。
And they get the likes, and they want more likes.
你知道，点赞越多，你就越激进。
And, you know, the more likes you get, the more radical you become.
对。
Yeah.
我认为卡尔施纳特是这一现象的第一个真正例子。
And I think Karlschnatt is the first example of this happening, really.
他是那种因英国脱欧而愤怒的学者的典型代表。
He's the kind of the primal example of the angry academic getting cross about Brexit on
推特上。
Twitter.
是的。
Yeah.
所以在十二月，他发表了一系列充满激情的布道，煽动了维滕贝格的学生们，他们开始肆意破坏图像、拆毁祭坛，并公然威胁那些以传统方式举行弥撒的神职人员。
So in December, he preaches this whole series of fiery sermons, and he whips the students in Wittenberg up who go on the rampage destroying images and pulling down altars and and overtly menacing priests who are celebrating mass in the in the traditional way.
在平安夜，维滕贝格爆发了一场大规模骚乱，人们闯入教堂，摧毁圣像。
And on Christmas Eve, there's a kind of enormous riot across Wittenberg breaking into churches, destroying images.
而在圣诞节当天，卡尔施塔特非但没有为此道歉，反而变本加厉。
And on Christmas day, rather than apologizing for this, Karlstadt doubles down.
于是他举行了一场庆祝活动，并提出了一系列观点。
So he he holds this festive celebration, and he is making a whole series of points.
他没有穿着传统的法衣，而是披着一件朴素的斗篷。
So he does it not in the traditional vestments, but in a kind of plain cloak.
他没有背对会众，转向圣餐仪式中那神圣的奥秘，而是面向会众。
He is not turning away from the congregation towards the awesome mystery that is at the heart of the mass but facing the congregation.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
他念祝圣词时，不用拉丁语，而用德语。
He is speaking the word of consecration, not in Latin, but in German.
德语。
German.
他直接把面包分发到会众手中，而不是放进他们嘴里。
And he is distributing the bread directly into the congregation's hands, so rather than putting it in their mouth.
因为这种观念认为平信徒没有资格接近圣物，更不用说触碰它了。
Because this whole idea that the laity are not qualified to approach it, let alone touch it.
我的天，这简直是令人震惊的亵渎。
I mean, this is a shocking, shocking blasphemy.
亵渎。
Blasphemy.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
他还会分给他们葡萄酒，这非常符合胡斯派的做法。
And he gives them wine, which is a very Hussite thing to do.
这是一种非常明显的异端行为。
It's a very overtly heretical thing to do.
卡尔施塔特正直接推进这一切。
Karlstadt is going straight in.
他正在全面推行这些做法。
He's doing this the whole thing.
为了更进一步，新年时他结婚了，娶的是一位15岁的女孩。
And just for good measure, in the new year, he marries and the person he marries is a 15 year old girl.
嗯，他彻底投入了。
Well, he's all in.
他完全投入了。
He's he's all in.
是的。
Yeah.
他完全投入了。
He's all in.
维滕贝格的市政当局支持他。
And the Wittenberg magistracy, they back him.
因此，在1522年1月24日，他们正式认定卡尔施塔特在圣诞节举行的非法仪式非常出色，应作为典范，同时禁止所有私人弥撒，并要求在1522年2月前将维滕贝格所有教堂中的宗教图像全部移除。
So on the 01/24/1522, they basically say that the illegal service that Karlstadter celebrated on Christmas, that this is brilliant, that this should be the model, that all private masses should be banned, that all religious images should be removed from Wittenberg's churches, and they give a date in February 1522 when all of this has to be done.
随后，一伙暴民在维滕贝格四处肆虐，把所有剩余的图像和圣像都拖了出来。
And a mob duly goes on the rampage through Wittenberg, and they haul out every remaining image, icon, whatever.
他们焚烧了木制的圣像。
They burn icons that are made of wood.
石制的圣像，比如基督的石像、圣母的石像。
The stone ones say stone images of Christ, stone images of the Virgin.
他们砸掉头颅，折断手臂，欢呼庆祝，这一切都妙不可言。
They smash off the heads and break off the arms and celebrate, and it's all great fun.
所以，汤姆，有几件事让我印象深刻。
So, Tom, a couple of things strike me about that.
其中之一显然是一个主题，肯定会引起许多听众的共鸣，我们不想过多赘述，那就是摧毁图像、拆毁雕像的冲动，这在人类历史上显然非常熟悉，而且其持久性令人惊叹。
One is obviously the theme that will have struck loads of listeners, which we don't want to labor too much, which is the impulse to destroy images, to tear down statues and stuff is something we're obviously very familiar with, and it's remarkable how enduring it is in human history.
关于宗教图像和雕像的破坏与移除，我想问一个问题。
Just a question about destruction and removal of religious images and statues.
这有什么新奇的吗？
Is that something new?
因为显然，从拜占庭圣像破坏运动以来，这类例子屡见不鲜，还是说这是一种持久的焦虑？
Because, obviously, there've been lots of examples of it going back to byzantine iconoclasm, or is this an enduring anxiety?
不是。
No.
我认为这并不是一种持久的焦虑。
I don't think it is an enduring anxiety.
我认为在拉丁基督教世界中，这一点被视为理所当然。
I think it is taken for granted in Latin Christendom.
你说得对，东正教世界确实有过争论，但那些争论发生在
You're right that there were debates in the orthodox world, but they were
几个世纪之前。
Centuries and centuries earlier.
更早的几个世纪。
Centuries before.
是的。
Yeah.
所以在拜占庭和拉丁基督教世界都是如此。
So both in Byzantium and in Latin Christendom.
人们普遍认为，图像作为引导和辅助，或许能让文盲更接近对信仰的理解，这种观念根深蒂固。
The assumption that that images are guides and helps maybe to the unlettered to you know, it brings them closer to an understanding of their faith is deeply, deeply entrenched.
对。
Yes.
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