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在十月这一年，发生了英国历史上另一个令人难忘的日期，即征服者威廉在十月。
In the year October occurred the other memorable date in English history, viz William the Conqueror October.
这也被称为黑斯廷斯战役。
This is also called the Battle of Hastings.
当征服者威廉登陆时，他躺在海滩上，吞下了两口沙子。
When William the Conqueror landed, he lay down on the beach and swallowed two mouthfuls of sand.
这是他的第一次征服行动，发生在南方。
This was his first conquering action and was in the South.
后来，他也蹂躏了北方。
Later, he ravaged the North as well.
诺曼征服是一件好事，因为从那时起，英格兰不再被征服，从而得以成为顶尖国家。
The Norman conquest was a good thing, as from this time onwards, England stopped being conquered and thus was able to become top nation.
这是W.C. 赛勒和R.G. 耶特曼的经典著作《1066年及一切》中的说法。
So says w c Seller and RG Yateman's classic ten sixty six and all that.
我有什么理由不同意呢？
And who am I to disagree?
欢迎收听《历史其余部分》，我是多米尼克·桑布鲁克，热爱浪漫、崇尚自由的盎格鲁-撒克逊后裔，以及从头到脚都是诺曼人的灰暗严肃的汤姆·荷兰德。
Welcome to The Rest is History with me, Dominic Sambrook, romantic, freedom loving heir of the Anglo Saxons, and grey grim Tom Holland and Norman to his fingertips.
谢谢你的介绍，多米尼克。
Well, thanks, Dominic, for that introduction.
你知道吗？我其实曾在国家电视台扮演过征服者威廉。
You do you know I have actually played William the Conqueror on national TV?
当然了，你演过。
Of course you
演过。
have.
是的。
Yes.
所以我是个 sleek、邪恶的诺曼人，直到
So I I am a sleek, evil Norman to my
刮得干干净净的下巴。
clean shaven chops.
所以当人们把你误认为是演员汤姆·赫兰德时，我的意思是，你确实是个演员。
So when people mistake you for actor Tom Holland, I mean, you are actor.
是的。
Yes.
我是个演员。
I am an actor.
我的意思是，
I mean,
他才是那个冒牌货。
he's the he's the impersonator.
我认为，任何看过我饰演诺曼底威廉表演的人，都会承认那是一场卓越的戏剧表演。
Well, I think that anyone who saw my performance as William of Normandy would would accept that it was a a magnificent thespian performance.
对。
Yes.
漫威选他出演，纯粹是一场严重的认错人事件。
His casting by Marvel was just a colossal case of mistaken identity.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，他们简直就是征服者威廉。
I mean, they're pretty much William the Conqueror.
差不多。
Pretty much.
他花了时间去调侃蜘蛛侠的梗，但我们终于
He's taken the time to get onto the Spider Man jokes, but we finally
是的。
Yes.
好吧，在45集之后，我们终于聊到这个了。
Well, after 45 episodes, we got onto them.
所以，为
So say well done for
你这是在克制自己。
You're putting in self restraint on my part.
这真是英勇之举。
It's been heroic.
所以，汤姆，当我上学的时候，像你一样，可能也像我们很多听众一样，我学到过英国历史上有一个必须记住的日期。
So, Tom, when I was at school, like you, like probably a lot of our listeners, I learned that there was one date that you had to know in English history.
这是英国历史上最具决定性的日期，十月。
It's the defining date in all English history, October.
首先，你觉得它配得上这个地位吗？
Now, do you think that it deserves its place, first of all?
我们确实有一个来自理查德·杜瓦尔的问题，他问：十月真的是英国历史上的一个关键转折点吗？
Well, we we have a question on that, don't we, from Richard Duvall, who asks, is October a genuine pivot point in English history?
我觉得我们应该先给大家讲讲背景。
And I think So give us a sense
我想你应该说说当时发生了什么。
of what happened, I suppose.
好的。
Okay.
在我们讨论这一点之前，我认为这是因为诺曼征服在中世纪英格兰历史的脉络上留下了一道深刻的烙印。
So before we come to that before we come to that, essentially, I think it is because it's it's a kind of great scorch mark across the line of medieval English history.
在这一边，是我们或许会有些争议地称为盎格鲁-撒克逊时期的时代。
And on the one side, you have the period that we we call, maybe controversially, the Anglo Saxon period.
而在另一边，则是我们开始计算英格兰国王和女王世系的时期。
And then we have the period from which we start dating our kings and queens.
在诺曼征服之前，至少有两位名叫爱德华的国王统治过英格兰，但我们从13世纪才开始重新计算爱德华的序数。
So there were lots of you know, there were at least two Edward's who ruled as king of England before the Norman conquest, but we start counting Edward's from the thirteenth century.
这仅仅是诺曼征服如何彻底重塑一切的一个简单例证。
And that's just a kind of a single indicator of the way in which essentially the Norman conquest serves to completely reorient everything.
我认为1066年确实重要，而且确实具有决定性，因为自那以来的千年里，人们一直将其视为如此。
And I think it's ten sixty six matters and and is indeed decisive because over the course of the millennium since, people have seen it as such.
因此，人们也逐渐将它视为
And so have kind of
是的。
Yeah.
你知道，人们围绕它构建了完整的神话。
You know, constructed entire mythologies around it.
十七世纪非常流行的一个观念是‘诺曼枷锁’。
The idea, very popular in the seventeenth century, is the Norman yoke.
这种观点认为英格兰自此以后从未被入侵过，当然这并不真实，但它确立了英格兰作为热爱自由的国家的形象，并在十九世纪和二十世纪产生了巨大影响。
The idea that England has never been invaded since, which of course isn't true, but it it establishes an idea of England as freedom loving that has incredible influence through the nineteenth and twentieth century.
所以我认为这些原因使它很重要。
So I think it matters for those reasons.
但我也认为，从十一世纪的背景来看，它同样重要，因为诺曼人代表了一种在大陆上同时兴起的革命性运动。
But it's also I I I think it matters in the context of the eleventh century because essentially what the Normans represent is this kind of revolutionary movement which is escalating on the continent at the same time as as the Norman invasion.
这既是一场军事革命，也是一场宗教革命。
And it's both a military revolution and a religious revolution.
诺曼征服正是这一故事的重要组成部分，我们稍后可能会谈到这一点。
And the Norman conquest is very much a part of that story, so we might get onto that later on.
我从来不会相信你会
I would never have believed you would
找到了一种将宗教融入其中的方式，但宗教革命，是的。
have found a way to fit religion But but but religious revolution Yeah.
但不要讲十月的故事。
But don't to the story of October.
这真是了不起的工作，汤姆。
This is Fantastic work, Tom.
这是十一世纪。
This is the eleventh century.
是吗？
It is?
十一世纪不仅非常宗教化。
The eleventh century is the is the it was not just very religious.
这是一个巨大的转折点，你知道，这是改变中世纪世界的教皇革命时刻。
This is the great seismic you know, this is the moment of revolution, the the the the papal revolution that transforms the medieval world.
但你说这话，每个世纪都这么说。
There is no century that you don't say that of, though.
不。
No.
我一直认为，十一世纪是革命性的世纪。
The eleventh century, I've always said, is is the revolutionary century.
我认为把十月事件放在这个更广阔的背景下来看是有道理的。
And I think it makes sense to put see October in that kind of broader perspective.
让我试着把你拉回正轨。
Let me try and put you back on your on your leash.
用大约十句话告诉我们十月发生了什么。
Tell us what happened in October in about 10 sentences.
好的。
Okay.
试试看。
Try
是的。
Yeah.
如果可能的话，就一并处理。
Sweep if that's if that's doable.
学生进入中学后在七年级学习这段历史是有原因的，因为这是一个极具戏剧性的故事，本质上就像一场三方版的《权力的游戏》。
There's a reason why students, when they go to secondary school, study it in year seven, because it's a very inherently dramatic story, and, basically, it's a kind of three way Game of Thrones.
你有哈罗德·戈德温森，一位权势过盛的伯爵之子。
You've got Harold Godwinson, son of an overmighty earl.
你有哈拉尔·哈德拉达，即‘铁血王’哈拉尔，挪威国王。
You have Harald Hardrada, Harald the hard ruler, the king of Norway.
还有诺曼底公爵威廉，他是法国最令人畏惧且能力超群的人，三人都将目光投向了英格兰王冠。
And you have William, the duke of Normandy, the most kind of terrifyingly able man in France, all of whom essentially have their eyes on the crown of England.
1066年5月1日，前国王‘忏悔者’爱德华无子而逝，王位因此空缺。
And the crown of England becomes available on the 01/05/1066 when the previous king, Edward the confessor, dies childless.
于是爆发了一场激烈的争夺。
And so there is this massive scramble.
哈罗德·戈德温森迅速在新建成的威斯敏斯特修道院加冕为王。
Harold has himself Harold Godwinson has himself crowned very rapidly in the newly built abbey at Westminster.
这激怒了威廉，因为威廉认为爱德华忏悔者和哈罗德都承诺过让他继承王位。
This provokes William to fury because William thinks that both Edward, the confessor, and Harold are committed to him succeeding to the throne.
与此同时，哈罗德·戈德温森的弟弟托斯蒂爆发了严重冲突，离开了英格兰的一半，前往挪威，游说老派的可怕维京人哈拉尔·哈德拉达，说服他率军前来夺取王位。
Meanwhile, Harold's Harold Godwinson's brother, Tostig, has had a massive bust up, has left England in a half, has gone off to Norway where he's talked to Harald Hardrada, a terrifying Viking of the old school, persuaded him that he could come over and grab the throne.
因此，在十月期间，这三个人都在争夺王位。
So over the course of October, you have these three men all competing for the throne.
这一切都发生在哈雷彗星的阴影下，这无疑是灾难的预兆。
It's in the shadow of Hallie's Comet, a sure portent of doom and disaster.
哈罗德·戈德温森驻扎在英格兰南海岸，等待诺曼人入侵。
Harold Godwinson is stationed on the South Coast Of England waiting for the Normans to invade.
逆风阻止了威廉渡过英吉利海峡。
Contrary winds stop William from crossing the channel.
就在他驻扎期间，他收到消息：哈拉尔·哈德拉达和托斯蒂已经入侵，沿亨伯河而上，击败了诺森布里亚和麦西亚的伯爵，并占领了约克。
While he's down there, he's brought the news that Harold Hardrada and Tostig have invaded, have sailed up the Humber, have defeated the earls of Northumbria and Mercia, have seized York.
哈罗德·戈德温森以惊人的速度行军，出其不意地袭击了托斯蒂和哈拉尔·哈德拉达，并在斯坦福桥战役中击败了他们。
Harold Godwinson marches at a furious speed, takes Tostig and Harald Hardrada by surprise, defeats them at the Battle of Stamford Bridge.
他刚松了一口气，就得知诺曼人已在南海岸登陆。
He's just breathing a deep sigh of relief when he's informed that the Normans have landed on the South Coast.
于是他急忙赶回去，在黑斯廷斯以北七英里的一座山丘上与他们相遇。
So he hairs back down there, meets them at a a hill some seven miles north of Hastings.
整日都在激战。
A battle is fought all day.
哈罗德最终阵亡。
Harold ends up dead.
威廉则等待盎格鲁-撒克逊贵族们承认他。
William ends up, waits for the Anglo Saxon nobility to accept him.
但他们没有。
They don't.
于是他开始蹂躏南部地区。
So he starts to ravage the South.
这一策略十分有效，因此在1066年圣诞节，他得以进入伦敦并掌控城市。
This is sufficiently effective that on Christmas Day ten sixty six, he is able to take in possession of London.
就在那一天，他在威斯敏斯特教堂加冕为英格兰国王。
And on that day, he is crowned in Westminster Abbey as king of England.
这是一个极其戏剧化的故事。
So it's an incredibly dramatic story.
我敢肯定，它在英国历史上扮演如此关键角色的部分原因，就在于它如此戏剧化且在许多方面都非同寻常。
And I'm sure, again, part of the reason why it has this seismic role in English history is simply that it's so dramatic and in in lots of ways unusual.
这是一个精彩的故事。
It's a great story.
干得好，汤姆。
Well done, Tom.
这是一场精彩的表演。
That was a bravura performance.
这不就像《权力的游戏》吗？
And it is a kind of Game of Thrones, isn't it?
但让我觉得有趣的是，就在录制前我思考这个问题时，人们普遍想象中，盎格鲁-撒克逊时期是一段田园诗般的和平岁月，然后诺曼人这些恶棍到来，烧杀抢掠，诺曼征服是一场巨大的创伤性断裂。
But what's interesting to me about it, just thinking about it before recording, is that the sort of the in the popular imagination, there's this sort of period of bucolic Anglo Saxon peace, and then these bastards arrive from Normandy and burn everything and smash everything up, and the Norman conquest is this great traumatic rupture.
但有趣的是，英格兰，我的意思是，英格兰非常富裕。
But the interesting thing is that England I mean, England is very rich.
英格兰非常强大，国家机器高效，征税能力很强，还有郡县等一套完整的体系。
England is very you know, has a very sort of potent state, so it's very good at raising taxes, and it has the sort of Shires and all the rest of it.
但英格兰长期以来一直处于争夺之中。
But England has kind of been up for grabs for a while.
英格兰曾被丹麦人入侵过。
So England has been invaded by the Danes.
它曾由克努特统治。
It's been run by Cnut.
它曾是北海帝国的一部分，而且在诺曼征服之前，诺曼人的影响在英格兰已经增强了数十年，对吧？
It's been part of the North Sea Empire, And the Normans the Norman influence has been getting stronger in England for decades, hasn't it, before the Norman conquest?
所以忏悔者爱德华有一半诺曼血统。
So Edward the confessor is half Norman.
他有诺曼朋友。
He's got Norman friends.
他把土地分给了一些诺曼人。
He's he's given lands to some Normans.
以一种
In a
方式，是的。
way Yeah.
哈罗德·戈德温森有一半斯堪的纳维亚血统。
And Harold Godlington is half is half Scandinavian.
没错。
So exactly.
所以，这基本上意味着英格兰将被这两种势力之一接管——要么是挪威，要么是诺曼底，两者本质上都是维京势力。
So isn't this basically England is going to be taken over by one of these two sort of powers, either Norway or Normandy, both Viking powers, basically.
这是不可避免的。
And it's inevitable.
你不觉得吗？英格兰注定会被拉入斯堪的纳维亚或诺曼底与法国的势力范围，唯一的问题是
Do you not think do you think there's space it's going to be dragged into the orbit, either of Scandinavia or of Normandy and France, And the only question
是哪一个。
is which.
我认为它始终会是法国的。
I think it was always going to be that of of France.
我认为它始终会是这样，因为法国持续不断的革命性动荡规模太大了。
I think it was always going to be because of this the the the scale of this ongoing kind of revolutionary ferment in France.
但你说得对，好吧。
But you're right Okay.
它之所以如此，是因为英格兰实在太富裕、太成功了。
That it is also I mean, essentially, England is is too rich and too successful.
我的意思是，这么说听起来有点奇怪。
I mean, sounds an odd thing to say.
但早在十世纪建立的统一英格兰王国，在当时欧洲其他地区尚未出现这种中央集权国家的情况下，已经极为超前了。
But the the unitary Kingdom Of England that gets founded in in the tenth century is incredibly precocious by the standards of the rest of Europe, where where this kind of centralized nation state doesn't really exist.
但你也不能过分强调中央集权。
And you mustn't overemphasize the centralization.
我的意思是，北方基本上是被粗略控制的。
I mean, the North is is is is very roughly controlled.
但确实存在明确的边界。
But it is there there are recognized boundaries.
有一种统一的信仰。
There's a single faith.
几乎可以说有一种统一的语言。
There's there's almost a kind of single language.
我的意思是，这些方言基本上是可以互相理解的。
I mean, the dialects are kind of pretty much mutually intelligible.
有一种统一的宗教。
There's a single religion.
有一位统一的国王。
There's a single king.
而且还有着惊人的征税能力。
And there are these kind of incredible abilities to raise taxes.
因此，以其他地区为标准，它非常非常富裕。
So it's by the standards of other lands, very, very wealthy.
但这也是个问题，因为你被强盗包围着。
But that's a problem because you're surrounded by robbers.
这就像是在到处都有抢劫的地方行走，却还戴着钻石之类的东西。
So it's kind of like walking through a place where there are lots of muggings with wearing a kind of, you know, wearing diamonds or something.
我的意思是，这简直是在招惹麻烦。
I mean, it's kind of asking for trouble.
而维京人，当然，这对他们来说极具吸引力。
And the Vikings, you know, this is incredibly appealing to them, of course.
于是他们来了，那时正是埃塞尔雷德二世在位时期。
So they come over, and it's in the reign of Aethelred the unready.
克努特建立了他的统治。
Canute establishes his reign.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Absolutely.
本质上，哈拉尔·阿尔德拉达在这一点上是典型的旧派人物。
Essentially, that Harald Ardrada, in that sense, is kind of old school.
因为他所做的事，维京人自林迪斯法恩袭击以来就一直在做，基本上就是闯进来抢东西。
Because what he's doing you know, Vikings have been doing pretty much since the the the reign on Linde the the raid on Lindisfarne, is basically kinda come in and grab stuff.
我认为威廉是不同的，因为哈拉尔·哈德拉达虽然是基督徒，而且确实是将成为挪威主保圣人圣奥拉夫之人的同父异母兄弟，但他信基督教只是因为所有人都必须是基督徒。
William, I think, is is different because he he although Harold Harold Hardrada is Christian and indeed is is the half brother of the man who will become Norway's patron saint, Saint Olaf, he's he's Christian in the sense that everyone has to be Christian.
所以他并不相信吗？
So he didn't believe it?
我不认为。
I don't think
他可不是那种打左脸转右脸的人。
He's not a turning the other cheek man.
他根本就不是那种打左脸转右脸的人。
He's very much not a turning the other cheek man.
对于威廉来说，情况不同，因为他深信上帝希望他登上王位，而且爱德华忏悔者确实应该这么做，我认为爱德华曾许诺将王位传给他。
For for William, it's it's different because William really passionately believes that God wants him to have the throne and that Edward the Confessor, I think he's right to do this, I think Edward the Confessor had promised him the throne.
哈罗德·戈德温森在著名的事件中，大约在十月前一年，因船只失事被威廉从囚禁中救出，这一幕出现在巴约挂毯上。
Harold Godwinson, in a famous episode that appears on the Bayeux Tapestry a year or so before October, has been shipwrecked and essentially rescued by William from captivity.
他发誓以圣徒的遗骨为证，支持威廉对王位的权利。
And he has sworn an oath on the bones of saints that he will back William's right to the throne.
威廉的故事只是宣传者编造的吗，托马斯？
And William's about a story just told by propagandists, Thomas?
这有多真实？
How how true is that?
我认为这是真的，你觉得是真的吗？
I think it's You think it's real?
是的。
Yeah.
我认为是真的，因为我觉得哈罗德如果没这么做，根本不可能脱身。
I think it is because I don't think Harold would have got away otherwise.
我的意思是，争论的焦点在于哈罗德为何前往那里。
I mean, the the debate is over why Harold has gone there.
英格兰方面的史料称，他去那里是为了赎回威廉扣押的一些俘虏或人质，而诺曼方面的说法则称他是被爱德华忏悔者派去的。
So the English sources say that it's to to ransom some captives, some hostages that William has, and the the Norman say that he's been sent there by Edward the confessor.
我认为英格兰方面的记载可能更真实，但我认为哈罗德确实去过那里，这一点很清楚。
I think the English sources there are probably truer, but I think it's pretty clear that Harold did do it.
哈罗德这么做的原因是他并没有认真对待这件事。
And the reason that Harold does this is because he doesn't take it seriously.
在爱德华忏悔者传记中，有段精彩描述，这部传记写于十月事件几十年后，提到他从一个埋伏到另一个埋伏，始终带着一种警觉的嘲讽态度。
So there's fabulous description of him in the life of Edward the Confessor written decades ago after October, where it refers to his his watchful mockery that he takes from ambush to ambush.
我认为，他觉得这件事其实并不重要。
And I think there's the sense that he feels it doesn't really matter.
而且我认为不仅如此，他当时就在诺曼底。
And I think more than that, that he's he's in Normandy.
他能够观察威廉，准确评估自己面对的是怎样的对手。
He's able to scope out William and and and exactly calculate what he is up against.
但哈罗德的问题在于，威廉坚信，如果他要前往英格兰，他将是作为上帝的代理人行事。
But the problem for Harold is that William is signed up to the idea that essentially, if he is going to England, he will be doing so as the agent of God.
作为证明
And as proof of
所以他有教皇的旗帜，还是
So he's got a papal papal banner or
什么？
something?
他拥有
He has
一面教皇旗帜，这非常令人震惊，因为教廷根本无权干预这种事务。
a papal banner, which is which is very shocking because it's it's none of the business of the papacy to intervene in this kind of thing.
这是一个教廷影响力远不如十年后那样的时期。
This a period where the reach of the papacy is nothing like what it becomes even within a decade or so.
因为此时罗马的改革者们正开始利用教廷，试图将整个基督教世界纳入他们所设想的改革进程中。
Because this is the period where reformers in Rome are starting to use the papacy as a way to bring the whole of Christendom to heel as they see it, to subjective to a process of reformatio.
英格兰是一个巨大的目标。
And England is a massive prize.
英格兰是一个古老的基督教国家，但坎特伯雷大主教斯蒂甘德却完全代表了罗马改革者所厌恶的一切。
England is a kind of ancient Christian country, but the archbishop of Canterbury, a guy called Stigand, is absolutely representative of everything that the reformers in Rome dislike.
他，你知道的，非常腐败。
He you know, he's corrupt.
他兼任多个教职。
He holds multiple benefices.
他根本不在乎自己的信仰。
He does not take his faith seriously at all.
因此，将英格兰纳入掌控的机会极其诱人。
And so the chance to bring England to heel is hugely, hugely tempting.
在教皇背后，说服教皇亚历山大二世将带有教皇祝福的旗帜授予威廉的人名叫希尔德布兰德，他后来成为了教皇格列高利七世。
And the guy behind the the pope who who essentially persuades the pope, Alexander the second, to give a a banner with a papal blessing to William is a guy called Hildebrand, who in due course will become pope Gregory the seventh.
格列高利七世是十一世纪伟大的革命性教皇，正是他，在亚平宁山脉北部的卡诺萨城堡，让皇帝亨利四世跪在雪地中向他屈服。
And Gregory the seventh is the great revolutionary pope of the eleventh century, and he's the guy who at Knossa Castle in in the North Of The Apennines will get Henry the fourth, the emperor himself, to kneel in the snow and humble himself.
嗯。
And Mhmm.
本质上，哈罗德的屈服是这一系列行动的一部分。
Essentially, the humbling of Harold is a part of this.
那些反对格里高利七世、反对改革者、反对这种彻底动摇基督教世界、净化并使其更真正基督教化政策的人。
And people who are opposed to what Gregory the seventh are doing, opposed to what the reformers are doing, opposed to this policy of essentially kind of shaking Christendom up, cleansing it, purifying it, making it more truly Christian.
他们将格里高利七世（希尔德布兰德）对亨利四世的做法，与之对比，将其描绘成叛乱、僭越和革命性的行为。
They compare Gregory the seventh Hildebrand's approach to Henry the fourth, and they cast it as kind of rebellion, as as upstart behavior, as revolutionary behavior.
他们明确地将其与威廉对哈罗德所做之事相提并论。
And they explicitly compare it to what William had done to Harold.
你知道的，杀害并肢解一位基督教国王。
You know, the the the murder and dismemberment of a Christian king.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我认为，这正是理解这一事件的极其重要的背景。
So I think that that that that is a massive, massive part of the context for it.
因此，在黑斯廷斯战役之后，威廉在哈罗德倒下的地方建造了一座宏伟的修道院。
And that's why when after the battle of Hastings, William builds a great abbey on the site where Harold fell.
还有那座高坛，是的。
And the high the high altar yeah.
巴特尔修道院。
Battle Abbey.
所以巴特尔修道院的高坛，据说就建在哈罗德倒下的位置上。
So Battle Abbey, the the high altar is supposed to stand on the spot where Harold fell.
这对威廉来说，是一种真诚的忏悔之举。
And this is a gesture of penance that that for William is a is a truly heartfelt one.
所有参加黑斯廷斯战役的诺曼人都必须为他们造成的死亡进行忏悔。
And everyone, all the Normans who fought at at Hastings have to do penance for the death that they inflicted.
因此，诺曼人有一种更基督教化的倾向。
So there is a kind of sense Normans are kind of they're more Christian.
他们比哈罗德、戈德温森家族及其追随者和爪牙更虔诚地践行基督教信仰。
They wear their Christianity more heavily than Harold and the Godwinsons and their sort of hangers on and henchmen.
这公平吗？
Is that fair?
我觉得是的。
I think so.
他们在基督教信仰上非常激进，好吧。
They are militant in their Christianity Okay.
一种令人恐惧的，而且
In a terrifying And
一个相关的疑问。
a sort of allied question.
很多小说家，我想到了朱利安·拉特博恩，他写过一本关于这个主题的书，叫《最后的英格兰国王》。
So lots of novelists I think of Julian Rathbone, who wrote a book on this called The Last English King.
很多小说家都写过这个题材，当然，这也是儿童历史读物中的常见内容。
Lots of novelists have written about this, and, of course, it's it's the stuff of children's history books.
而且我们总是试图给这些人物赋予个性，所以我们稍后会谈到哈拉尔德·哈德拉达，因为他身上有很多值得探讨的问题。
And and we always attempted to project personalities onto these characters, so we're gonna come to Harold Hardrata later because there's lots of questions about him.
他是个非常出色的人物。
He's this amazing character.
对很多人来说，哈罗德·戈德温森是个浪漫的英雄，你知道的，他在一场惨烈的战斗后倒下。
Harold Godwinson, for lots of people, is this kind of romantic hero, you know, who falls in battle, basically, after a massive fixture pile up.
而威廉则有点儿，哦，你扮演了他。
And William is kind of, oh, you played him.
所以你了解自己。
So you know yourself.
他是个阴郁、极具政治手腕、非常紧张、能力超群、令人畏惧的人物。
So he's kind of this grim, very political, you know, very intense, supremely competent, terrifying figure.
你认为有多少这种形象是我们用好莱坞式的方式，将个性投射到这些人身上？他们本质上只是相互竞争的军阀。
How much of that do you think is us projecting personalities, sort of Hollywood style, onto these people who are who are basically I mean, they're basically competing warlords.
对吧？
Right?
他们其实就是帮派的头目。
They're they're they're they're leaders of gangs.
他们确实是相当可怕的人，现在我们会把他们看作类似弗拉基米尔·普京那样的人物，总之都是硬汉。
They're they're they're pretty scary people, who now we would think of as kind of the equivalent of, you know, Vladimir Putin and and sort of they're they're tough guys.
你觉得我们对他们的现代印象基本上是浪漫化的虚构吗？
And are our modern impressions of them basically romantic inventions, do you think?
但从一开始，他们就被神话化了。
But they've been mythologized right from the right from the right from the beginning.
所以，哈拉尔·哈德拉达是冰岛萨迦中的英雄，这个形象就是这样流传下来的。
So the image so the story that this you know, Harald Hardrada is the hero of Icelandic saga.
关于他前往拜占庭、与龙搏斗、与女皇有染、征服圣地的故事层出不穷。
So there's all this stuff about how he he goes off to Byzantium, how he fights dragons, how he has affairs with empresses, how he conquers the Holy Land.
我的意思是，这些显然全是胡编乱造的。
I mean, it's all totally obviously, totally made up.
但这确实基于一个事实：哈拉尔·哈德拉达年轻时确实去了君士坦丁堡，确实在瓦兰吉卫队中大放异彩，带回大量财富，为自己赢得了声望，最终用这些资源收服了战团，夺得了挪威王冠。
And it it it draws on the fact that Harald Hardrada as a young man did go to Constantinople, did clearly cut a tremendous dash with the Varangian Guard, came back with lots of cash, made himself you know, and with which he was able to win war bands and and win the the the the crown of Norway.
我的意思是，显然他——用我弟弟的话说——是个超级猛男。
I mean, clearly, he's he's he's, as my brother would say, a massive lad.
就像内维尔·张伯伦一样。
In a Like Neville Chamberlain.
是的。
Yeah.
就像内维尔·张伯伦一样。
Like Neville Chamberlain.
他是个令人恐惧的人，我的意思是，他当然很可怕，这正是人们为他写史诗的原因。
He's a terrify I mean, of course, he's a terrifying guy, and that's why people write epics about him.
哈罗德·戈德温森也是如此，这家伙在和威尔士人作战，还把被他击败的威尔士王子的头颅当作战利品展示。
Harold Godwinson, likewise, is I mean, this is a guy who's fighting the Welsh and gets given the head of the Welsh prince who he's been fighting and treats it as a as a trophy.
是的。
Yeah.
现在说到正常的类比，他是
Now to to to the normals of parallels is he's
有点在听诗歌，牵着他的妻子埃迪丝的手，埃迪丝有着优雅的天鹅颈。
kinda listening to poetry and holding hands with Edith, his Edith wife swan neck.
是的。
Yes.
美感，对。
The beauty Yeah.
他热爱盎格鲁-撒克逊的传统等等。
And he's loving kind of Anglo Saxon traditions and all that.
那全是胡扯，是吗？
That's all balls, is it?
我认为，我的意思是，我认为他是哈罗德·哈罗德·戈德温森，是个很有魅力的人。
I think, I mean, I think he's Harold Harold Goddleton is a charismatic man.
他一定很有魅力，才能赢得支持。
He must have been to win the support.
本质上讲，我的意思是，哈罗德·戈德温森有点像理查三世那样的人。
Essentially, I mean, he you see, Harold Goddinson is he's a kind of a decent Richard the third.
他是个篡位者，就像理查三世一样。
He's a usurper like Richard the third.
你知道的，有这么一个人
There is, you know, there
有一位埃塞尔林，一个
is an Aetheling, a man
是的
Yeah.
一位王子，即爱德加，本应成为国王。
A prince who who should become king in the form of Edgar.
爱德加是英格兰国王埃德蒙·铁边的孙子，埃德蒙曾与克努特作战，然后去世。
Edgar is the the the the grandson of Edmund Ironside, the English king who fought Canute and then and then died.
埃德蒙·铁边的儿子在匈牙利长大。
Edmund Ironside's son had been brought up in Hungary.
他回到了英格兰。
He'd come back to England.
他几乎立刻就去世了。
He died almost immediately.
埃德加是儿子。
Edgar is the son.
他在十月时只有大约13岁，所以还不能真正登基为王。
He's only about 13 in October, so he's not really able to to to to have the crown.
但即便如此
But even so
他是合法的继承人。
He's the rightful heir.
哈罗德·戈德温，是的。
Harold Godwin yeah.
哈罗德·戈德温把他挤到一边，我的意思是，但并没有杀他之类的。
Harold Godwin elbows him out of the way, I mean, but doesn't kill him or anything.
所以他就像理查三世那样的骑士。
So so so he's a knight Richard the third.
但他是个很有魅力的人，能说服其他所有贵族支持他。
But but he's so he's a charismatic man to to persuade all the other noblemen to to to sign up
为了这个。
for that.
但没错，篡位者只是个篡位者。
But, yeah, a usurper is only a usurper.
只有当他们失败了，才会被记住为篡位者，不是吗？
It's only remembered as a usurper if they then lose, aren't they?
如果一个篡位者成功了，那他就只是正统历史的一部分。
If they're a usurper and they win, then they're just part of the canon.
所以没人会想到
So no one thinks of
他们作为国王。
them as king.
而且情况更复杂，因为关于谁该继位的法律，你知道，其实并不明确。
And also it's more confused because the the the laws around who becomes king is, you know, it's it's more up for grabs.
本质上，这是一个选举职位，然后通过加冕仪式来确认。
Essentially, it's an elective office, and you then get it sealed with a coronation.
哈罗德，我是说，他是被选为国王的。
Harold, I mean, he's elected king.
所以他显然很有魅力。
So he clearly is charismatic.
从那件事中，你能感受到一种审视般的嘲讽。
And I think you get the sense from that thing of him, the watchful mockery.
我认为这是在他生前写成的，而且这确实符合他作为国王所展现的风格。
I think that that's written within his lifetime, and I think that that's clearly true to the style that he brings to kingship.
他是一个幽默、善于自嘲的人。
He's an amusing, amused kind of man.
威廉，我是说，他令人恐惧，因为他能力惊人，而且就像那些极其能干的革命者一样，总是令人畏惧。
William, I mean, he's terrifying because he's terrifyingly able and he's terrifying in the way that very, very competent revolutionaries are invariably terrifying.
关键是，这场革命不仅具有宗教性质，也具有军事性质。
And the thing is that the revolution is not just religious, it's also military.
因为在法国，这正是两个非常重要的变革时期。
Because this in France, this is the age of of two very, very significant developments.
其中之一是在安茹地区形成的认知，威廉在进攻英格兰之前，几十年间一直与安茹人作战。
One of which is the realization, particularly in Anjou, who William fights against for for decades before he launches his attack on England.
安茹人意识到，城堡可以作为压迫的工具。
The Angevin recognized that you can use castles as tools of oppression.
是的。
Yes.
所以当诺曼人到来时，英语里没有‘城堡’这个词，对吧？
So they start There's no word in English for castles, is there, when the Normans come over?
没有。
No.
人们根本不知道那是什么东西。
People don't know what they are.
没有。
No.
他们完全不了解。
They've got no idea.
而在卢瓦尔河沿岸，早期的城堡纷纷建立起来。
Whereas all along the, you know, the the Loire, the early chateau are going up.
本质上，安茹伯爵们能够利用这些城堡作为确立自身权力的手段——他们几乎从无名之辈崛起，成为法国中部的主要势力。
And essentially, the the Angevin counts are able to use these chateaus as ways of establishing themselves as kind of power you know, they come from almost nowhere to become the major power in Central France.
诺曼人很快意识到了城堡的巨大潜力。
And the Normans pick up on this very, very quickly, the scope for castles.
威廉在还是个孩子的时候，就非常年轻地成为了公爵。
And William, as a as a boy, you know, he's he he he becomes duke very, very young.
因此，他不得不面对那些贵族们到处修建城堡的行为。
So he has to put up with all the the noblemen whacking castles up all over the place.
他早年的大部分时间都在瓦解这些势力。
And he spends his early years essentially breaking that power.
所以他非常清楚城堡所发挥的作用。
So he's very, very alert to the use that castles play.
而他之所以能做到这一点，是因为他是诺曼人，而诺曼人擅长另一项重大发展——将马匹作为压迫的工具。
And he's able to do that because he is a Norman and the Normans are kind of proficient at the other great development, which is the the use of horses as a tool of oppression.
所以你有了城堡和马匹，而这本质上就是骑士。
So you've got castles and horses, and these are, of course Basically knights.
骑士，法语叫Chevalier。
Chevalier knights.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
是的。
Yes.
我的意思是，生活在诺曼人附近，就像被困在一个装满黄蜂的瓶子里。
And, I mean, essentially, to to to be in the neighborhood with the Normans is like being stuck in a bottle with a hornet.
他们令人恐惧，就像斯巴达人或罗马共和国中期的军队那样令人畏惧。
These are these are terrifying in the way that the Spartans were terrifying or the Romans of the of the Mid Republic were terrifying.
这些人完全为战争而组织，他们生活和呼吸都围绕着战争。
These are people who are completely organized for war, who live and breathe it.
威廉从小时候起就一直在马背上接受战争训练。
William has been in the saddle training for war since a boy since he was a boy.
而盎格鲁-撒克逊人虽然经常打仗，却不像这样有组织性，也没有城堡。
And the Anglo Saxons, although they fight a lot, are not organized for war in that way, and they do not have castles.
他们只有些没有防护的木制大厅。
They have kind of wooden halls that are unprotected.
因此，诺曼征服之所以能成功，是因为他们引入了这种令人恐惧的军事技术——这种技术正在改变法国，而英格兰对此却极为脆弱。
So that is what enables the Norman conquest to work, is that they are introducing this terrifying military technology, which is transforming France and which England is very, very vulnerable to.
所以，汤姆，我们稍后
So, Tom, we're have
要休息一下，然后再回答问题。
to take a break in a second and then do the questions.
但在那之前，我想问问你对这件事的看法。
But before we do that, I want to ask you what what you think about this.
因此，英格兰已经发展成为一个相当强大的单一国家，是欧洲最统一、最复杂的统治体系，甚至有人认为它是第一个欧洲民族国家，部分原因是受到维京人入侵的威胁。
So, England has become quite a potent unitary state, the most united, the most sophisticated sort of governing apparatus really in Europe, and some people say the first European nation state, partly under threat from Viking invasions.
因此，由于维京人的入侵，以及持续需要筹款来抵御他们、整顿防御等，英格兰国王在十月份之前就已经与他们的塞恩等人共同建立起一个强大的国家体系，使其成为一个极具吸引力的目标。
So because of the Viking invasions, because the constant need to raise money to fight them off and to sort the defences out and stuff, English kings before October have built, have created with their theanes and whatnot this great state that makes it a prize.
所以，你只要除掉国王，就能接管这个国家，然后你就变得非常富有。
So, you can decapitate the king and you can take it over, and then you'll be very rich.
那么问题来了，为什么他们没有建立起与之相匹配的军事技术体系呢？
So, the question is, why haven't they created a technological military apparatus to go along with that.
换句话说，为什么他们在军事技术上落后了？
So in other words, why are they behind?
如果他们在征税等方面已经领先于其他欧洲国家，为什么在军事技术上却如此落后？
If they are ahead of other European sort of states in tax raising and all that stuff, why are they behind technologically in military terms?
这是否与地理因素有关？
Is it because they to do with the geography?
是因为他们只需要对抗维京人吗？
Is it because they're only having to fight Vikings?
真正的原因是什么？
What's the reason?
这正是因为英格兰国家如此统一的缘故。
It it's it's precisely because the English state is as unitary as it is.
国王，或者至少统治着威塞克斯、麦西亚、东盎格利亚和诺森布里亚这些前王国的伯爵们，拥有足够的权威，任何敢给他们找麻烦的人，最终都会落得悲惨下场。
The the king or at least the, you know, the earls who rule the former kingdoms of Wessex and Mercia and East Anglia and Northumbria are have have sufficient authority that people who who who give them any shit can you know, will come to a grizzly end.
这在法国可不是这样。
That is not what happens in France.
在法国，国王的权力不断萎缩，再萎缩，直到几乎只集中在巴黎岛一带。
In France, the the the power of the king shrivels and shrivels and shrivels until essentially it's just focused on the Ile De Paris.
没错。
Right.
这意味着所有的公爵领地对任何想夺取它们的人来说，几乎都是唾手可得的猎物。
And that means that all the the duchies and are are essentially kind of fair game for anyone who wants to grab it.
因此，在即将成为法兰西王国的这片土地上，存在着一种有组织的无政府状态，这正是压迫滋生的温床。
So you have a state of kind of organized anarchy across what will become the Kingdom Of France, and this is a breeding ground for for for oppression.
创新，我想是这样。
Innovation, I suppose.
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这就像是，你知道的，一个由黑帮统治的城市。
It's it's kind of like, you know, you know, one city where you have mob rule.
你有黑手党。
You have the mafia.
黑手党变得非常擅长勒索，然后他们闯入一个根本没有黑手党的城市。
You know, the mafia become incredibly good at extorting stuff, and then they muscle into a city where there's no mafia at all.
突然间，店主们不得不面对，你知道的，他们对此毫无保护。
And suddenly, the shopkeepers are having to you know, they have no protection against it.
这就是为什么在英格兰根本不需要城堡或骑士，因为你有一个统一的君主制。
And that's the that essentially is the situation that there's no need for castles or knights in England because you have the the unitary monarchy.
但正是这一点让它变得如此宝贵。
But that's precisely what makes it as so valuable.
所以，以一种奇怪的方式，法国生活中那种无政府状态的竞争催生了创新与成功。
So in a weird way, competition, the sort of anarchic competition of life in France, breeds innovation and success,
基本上。
basically.
英国
Britain
几乎成了自身成功的受害者，这是一种不同类型的受害者
is almost a victim of its own well, it's a it's a victim of a different kind of
成功。
success.
是的。
Yeah.
这种新型的、强大的压迫形式，也就是骑士和城堡的压迫。
And and this this kind of potent new form of of I mean, it it is oppression with the knights and the castles.
不仅仅是英格兰，随着时间推移，苏格兰和爱尔兰也深受其害。
It's not just England that and and in the due course, Scotland and and Ireland that suffers from it.
意大利也是如此。
It's also in Italy.
因此，诺曼冒险家们前往那里。
So Norman adventurers travel there.
他们征服了南意大利。
They conquer Southern Italy.
他们征服了西西里的穆斯林政权。
They conquer the Muslim state in in Sicily.
他们入侵了巴尔干地区。
They invade the Balkans.
他们在巴尔干地区狠狠打击了拜占庭皇帝，随后成为第一次十字军东征的先锋力量。
They, you know, they they they give the Byzantine emperor an incredibly bloody nose in the Balkans, and then they provide the cutting edge for the First Crusade.
因此，这些诺曼人无疑是欧洲最优秀的战士。
So these are quite simply the best warriors in Europe.
是的。
Yeah.
英格兰是他们的受害者之一。
England is one of their victims.
英格兰只是
England is just the
最著名的受害者。
most high profile victim.
英格兰是最突出的，这就是为什么诺曼征服如此不同寻常。
England is the high the most and and that's why the Norman conquest is is so unusual.
一群人在没有类似先例的情况下进驻并接管一个王国，除了诺曼征服之外，几乎没有其他例子。
The the fact that, you know, a band of men can move in and take over an entire kingdom, nothing really quite like it happens apart from the normal conquest.
完美。
Perfect
该休息一下了，汤姆。
point to take a break, Tom.
我们可以去磨利我们的剑，建造我们的城堡之类的东西。
And we can go and sharpen our swords and build our castle and stuff.
然后我们回来回答问题。
And then we'll come back and do the questions.
一分钟后见。
See you in a minute.
欢迎回到《历史其余部分》。
Welcome back to The Rest is History.
从播客的角度来说，我们刚刚在斯坦福桥击退了挪威人，现在正拼命南下，因为诺曼人已在佩文西登陆，带来了大量问题，我们现在就来一一解答。
In podcasting terms, we've seen off the Norwegians at Stamford Bridge, and now we're marching desperately south to find the Normans have landed at Pevensey with a ton of questions, and we're gonna get through them now.
就像箭雨般倾泻而下。
Like arrows falling onto us.
没错。
Exactly.
这是丹尼·凯耶提出的观点，我们之前稍微提到过，但他问的是：为什么尽管英格兰已经拥有相对发达的国家体制，却仍如此容易成为入侵者的目标？
It's from Danny Kaye, and we've sort of addressed this a bit, but he says, why despite a relatively well developed state was England such an easy target for invaders?
我们某种程度上已经回答了这个问题，但还没回应他的后续问题：诺曼人做了什么来改变这一状况？
We've kind of answered that, but we haven't answered his second his follow-up, which is what did the Normans do to change that?
那么，为什么会发生这种变化？
So why does it change?
为什么诺曼人登陆之后，没有更多人入侵英格兰？
Why doesn't why don't more people invade England after the Normans have landed?
为什么其他人不一拥而上，试图从他们手中夺取英格兰呢？
Why why don't everybody else pile in and try to take England from them,
汤姆？
Tom?
因为他们是强大的对手。
Well, because they're a car source.
所以，你知道，在十月之后，确实有一些维京国王曾小规模地试探过英格兰。
So, you know, there are kind of Viking kings who who do have a kind of little nibble at England after October.
但他们能做什么呢？
But what can they do?
我的意思是，
I mean,
诺曼人 simply 太可怕了。
you know So the Normans are simply too fearsome.
一旦他们占有了英格兰，就再也无法将他们赶走了。
Once they've got possession, you can't dislodge them.
他们到处奔波，迅速建起了许多城堡。
Well, they they they rush around putting castles up everywhere.
对。
Right.
我认为哈罗德·戈德温森从斯坦福桥南下时，没有像他本该做的那样休息并等待更多援军，而是如此急切地进军威廉，是因为他曾经去过诺曼底。
And I think one of the reasons that that Harold Godwinson, when he comes south from Stamford Bridge, rather than resting and waiting for more troops to come as he probably should have done, isn't is is so desperate to march on on on William is that he's been in Normandy.
所以他亲眼见识了诺曼人建造城堡的能力，他知道即使只是粗略搭建的几座城堡，也几乎不可能被拆除。
So he sees what the Normans can do with their castles, and he knows that even a a a few very rough castles put up are almost impossible to remove.
因此我认为他急着赶下去，是想阻止这种情况发生。
So I think he's rushing down to try and stop that from happening.
当然，一旦威廉成为国王，他就会派他的封臣们四出行动。
And, of course, the moment that that William's become king, you know, he he's sending his his his liege men out.
他们正在建造城堡。
They are putting up the castles.
一旦城堡建成，就没人能将它们推倒了，因为诺曼人拥有压倒性的军事技术，使任何人无法与之抗衡。
And once the castles have gone up, there's no one who can pull them down because the the Normans have the have the military technology that prevents anyone from from from competing.
我认为维京人也是如此。
And I think that's true for the Vikings as well.
这就引出一个有趣的问题。
So that raises an interesting question.
如果维京人征服了英格兰，如果哈拉尔·哈德拉达占领了英格兰，你认为最终诺曼人还是会赢吗？因为他们拥有如此先进的技术？
If the if the Vikings had taken England, if Harald Hardrada had taken England, do you think ultimately the Normans would have won anyway because they have so much technology?
我认为这种技术迟早会传播开来。
I think at some point that technology would have crossed.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
这确实很有趣，我的意思是，我基本同意。
That's an interesting I mean, I kind of agree.
我的意思是，这正是有趣之处，不是吗？
I mean, that's the interesting thing, isn't it?
这个观点认为，这是一个关键时刻，因为它将英格兰纳入了诺曼人乃至法国的势力范围。
The argument is that this is a pivotal moment because it brings England into the Norman and then the French orbit.
但我认为，最终的重点无疑是，英格兰迟早会在接下来的几年里被这个势力范围所吞并。
But I suppose the ultimate point, surely, is that England would have been claimed by that orbit at some point in the next couple
无论如何。
of years anyway.
我认为在接下来的几十年内就会发生。
I I I think I think within the next few decades.
因为我觉得，没错。
Because I I think that Right.
法国发展出的军事技术的致命性，加上教皇革命的激进性，意味着英格兰不可能继续维持现状。
The the lethal quality of of the military technology that had been developed in France and the militant quality of papal revolution meant that that England couldn't be allowed to kind of drift along as it was.
这和关于英语的问题其实是一样的，不是吗？
And it's sort of like the same question about the English language, isn't it?
我的意思是，人们常说，这是英语演变中的一个关键时刻，因为它吸收了法语词汇，还有类似的情况。
I mean, you know, it's often said this is a pivotal moment in the evolution of English that it absorbs French words and and and that sort of stuff.
但我的意思是，你可以说，法国的文化引力意味着在接下来的几百年里，由于贸易和文化交流，英语必然会吸收大量法语词汇。
But, I mean, I suppose you could argue that France's cultural gravitational pull meant that at some point in the next few hundred years, English was bound to take in lots of French words because of trade, because of cultural contacts.
是的。
Yeah.
我也这么认为。
I think so.
会有宫廷往来之类的接触。
There would have been court contacts and stuff like that.
好的。
Okay.
我们再提一个问题。
Let's have another question.
我想我再问一遍吧。
I'll ask it again, I guess.
切特·阿特博尔德。
Chet Artbold.
所以切特是这个节目的朋友。
So Chet is a friend of the show.
我们对切特的问题非常熟悉。
We're very used to Chet's questions.
问题。
Questions.
切特说他想知道爱德华的合法继承人是谁。
Chet Chet says he wants to know who was Edward's lawful heir.
我们能解决这个问题吗？
Can we resolve that?
他问了三个问题。
Well, he's asked three questions.
我的天啊。
My gosh.
我们先来讨论爱德华的合法继承人吧。
Let's do the left Edward's lawful heir first.
我认为，埃德加·拉弗林是合法继承人。
Edgar Raffling, I think, Was the lawful heir.
但它
But it
这并不重要，对吧？
doesn't matter, does it?
因为，我的意思是，谁是合法继承人根本无关紧要。
Because it it I mean, it's irrelevant who the lawful heir was.
对吧？
Right?
在那个时候，是的。
At this time Yeah.
自从那时起，就一直有丹麦人的入侵。
Ever since you know, there's been Danish invasions.
王位已经多次易主。
The crown has been changing hands lots.
我的意思是，这根本不是个正确的问题，我想。
I mean, it's kind of and it's it's it's not the right question, I guess.
但除了这一点。
Well, except except that.
不。
No.
除了这一点。
Except that.
有一种
There is a kind of
阿尔弗雷德一系具有某种神圣性，埃德·加贝洛夫斯基称之为威塞克斯家族。
a sacral quality to the line of Alfred, which Ed Ed Gabelovsky says, the house of Wessex.
而爱德加就是威塞克斯家族的人。
And that's that's Edgar is the house of Wessex guy.
但他始终无法
And But he could never
明白了。
have got it.
对吧？
Right?
因为他太年轻了。
Because he was too young.
但他是个运动员。
But he's an athlete.
这个事情
The the thing
而且每个人都叫他运动员，而运动员意味着，你知道的，配得上当国王。
And and everyone calls him athlete, and athlete means, you know, deserves to be king.
几乎是王储了。
Crown prince almost.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yes.
但这种感觉是你有资格成为国王。
But but but with the sense that you have the right to become king.
所以为什么
So So why does
当忏悔者爱德华咽下最后一口气时，为什么没人替他发声？
no one speak up for him when Edward the confessor, you know, breathes his last?
因为他才13岁。
Because he's 13.
他们都害怕哈罗德·戈德温森吗？
They're all frightened of Harold Godwinson?
是的。
Yeah.
因为他才13岁，而且他们知道，他们不想要诺曼人。
Because because he's 13, because they know that that they don't want the they don't want the Normans.
他们不信任埃德加能对抗诺曼人。
They don't they don't trust Edgar to stand against the Normans.
哈罗德是，
Harold is Yeah.
是一位有实战能力的将军。
Is a general of proven ability.
是的。
Yeah.
所以他们纷纷支持那个能保住英格兰英格兰本色的人。
So they're rallying to they're they're rallying to the guy who who will keep England English.
因此，选择哈罗德并不是一种
So choosing Harold is not this kind
奇怪的、非法的、被戈德温森暴民胁迫的情形。
of weird, illegitimate, they've been intimidated by Godwinson kind of mobs.
这是完全合理的，是的。
It's a completely reasonable Yeah.
合法的选择。
Legitimate choice.
是的。
Yes.
是。
Is.
好的。
Okay.
很好。
Good.
因为那就是我的想法。
Because that's what I think.
那切特的下一个问题呢？
What about Chet's next question?
他问到了阶级问题。
He asks about class.
所以有一种说法认为，像格兰维尔这样姓氏的人，比像史密斯这样的人更有可能富有，因为前者是诺曼人的后裔，而后者则可能仍然是那种典型的、朴实的英国工人阶级。
So there is this argument that people called, let's say, Glanville are more likely to be rich because they're descended from the Normans than people called Smith, who are likely to be, you know, still kind of, you know, working class sort of salt of the earth Britons.
你认同这种观点吗？
Do you do you buy this?
你认为诺曼征服是否留下了延续至今的阶级体系，
Do you think the Norman conquest is has left a class system that has endured for,
长达一千年之久？
you know, a millennium?
是的。
Yes.
你真的这么认为？
You do?
我确实这么认为。
I do.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
I do.
是的。
I do.
你不这么认为吗？
Do you not?
我的意思是，从统计上看，不是有这样的情况吗？
I mean, I think statistically, wasn't there?
几年前有一项研究发表过。
There was some study published a couple of years ago.
是的。
Yes.
确实有。
There was.
没错。
Exactly.
我想到的就是这个。
That's what I'm thinking of.
所以我很乐意支持这一点。
So I'm very happy to go along with that.
那些有诺曼名字的人
I The people with Norman names
是的。
Yes.
蒙哥马利。
Montgomery.
蒙蒂为自己是这样的人感到非常自豪。
Monty was very proud of being.
我不知道。
I don't know.
老实说，我对这个有点怀疑。
I'm a bit dubious about this, to be honest with you.
但我认为，正如你在节目前半段所指出的，这确实影响了我们对阶级的认知，即使不是现实本身，至少是我们对它的理解。
But I think it's definitely I mean, you made the point in the first half of the show that it's definitely what it's actually clearly made a difference to is our sense of class, if not the reality, then our understanding of it.
也就是说，我们对‘有产者’与‘无产者’、‘统治阶级’与‘被压迫大众’之间二元对立的感知。
So our sense of a sort of dualism between haves and have nots, between a ruling class and an oppressed mass.
我的意思是，这种观念在马克思之前就已存在了。
I mean, that's there before, you know, Marx or anything like that.
这种观念早在……
That's there in
是的，在中世纪就已经存在了，
the That's that's there in the middle ages,
不是吗？
isn't it?
它在中世纪就存在，并且影响深远。
It's there and it's there in the middle ages, and it's it's hugely influential.
我的意思是，到了十四、十五世纪，正如你所说，诺曼枷锁的观念逐渐兴起，而且影响巨大——我们之前已经讨论过《艾凡赫》和沃尔特·斯科特，以及诺曼人与英格兰人之间巨大分裂的这种观念。
I mean, it's kind of growing up there by the fourteenth, fifteenth centuries, as you say, the Norman yoke, and it's massive or we've already talked about Ivanhoe and Walter Scott and that idea of of there being a massive division between Normans and English.
而且这并不是虚构的。
And I And that's not made up.
这是真实的。
That's real.
我的意思是，我认为它是虚构的。
I mean, that I think it is made up.
我认为
I think
它是虚构的。
it is made up.
我的意思是，当然，当约翰在13世纪初失去诺曼底时，情况确实如此。
Do I think that I mean, certainly, by the time that John loses Normandy in the Yeah.
在13世纪初，顺便说一下。
In the thirteenth cent early thirteenth century Oh, by the way.
每个人都把自己视为英格兰人。
Everyone is thinking of themselves as English.
但很长一段时间里，汤姆，也许是几百年，那里的人口大约是一百五十万，而通常过来的人只有数万，可能两万、一万五左右。
But for a long time, Tom, maybe a couple of hundred years, people are there is a sense of England is, what, one and a half million people, and they're normally to come over, we're talking about tens of thousands, maybe a maybe 20,000, 15,000 or something.
是的。
Yeah.
他们拥有所有的土地。
They have all the land.
他们掌握所有的权力。
They have all the power.
我的意思是，他们
I mean, they
是一个统治阶级。
are a ruling class.
对吧？
Right?
你从第一位撰写英格兰历史的作家——威廉·马姆斯伯里那里就能看到，他提到到处都是新面孔，享受着英格兰的财富，同时蚕食着它的根基。
You you you get this with the the first English historian to write about you, William and Marmsbury, and who who who talks about new faces everywhere enjoying England's riches and gnawing at her vitals.
听到这些真让我恶心，真让我恶心。
Makes me sick makes me sick to hear this stuff.
还有亨利·亨廷顿说，上帝根本就是创造了诺曼人来消灭英格兰人。
And and and you've got Henry of Huntington who says that that god basically has invented the Normans to wipe out the English.
所以这种说法是的。
So that's Yeah.
所以这种感觉是非常真实的。
So that sense is is very real.
但我认为这种情绪很快就消失了，到十三世纪就没了。
But but I think it fades pretty it's gone by the thirteenth century, think.
诺曼人现在基本上把自己当成英格兰人了。
And the Normans basically now see themselves as English.
因为他们大概在和法国人打仗。
Because I suppose they're fighting the French.
对吧？
Right?
所以他们是在与法国人对立中定义自己，对吧
So they're defining themselves against the French, do
你觉得呢？
you think?
绝对是的。
They are absolutely yes.
他们确实是。
They are.
但还有一点，比如在农民起义期间，那些农民们将诺曼征服神话化，用以解释他们的苦难。
And but but what also happens is, say, with the Peasants Revolt, you're getting peasants there who were mythologizing the Norman conquest to explain their sufferings.
那切特的最后一个问题是，英格兰是否会更倾向于斯堪的纳维亚而非法国？
What about Chet's final question, which is about would England have looked more to Scandinavia than France?
我的意思是，这确实是人们常问的问题。
I mean, I think that is that's the question that people often ask.
如果历史走向不同，英格兰会不会实际上成为斯堪的纳维亚的一部分？
If it had gone otherwise, would England effectively be part of Scandinavia?
我们会吃肉桂卷吗？
And would we be eating cinnamon buns?
太棒了。
Fantastic.
中世纪风格的家具。
Mid century furniture.
我们会享有非常优厚的养老金，但要缴纳巨额税收。
We'd have very generous pensions and pay would Colossal taxes.
是的。
Yeah.
所以如果他们赢了，我们都会听ABBA的歌，去宜家购物。
So if they'd won, we would all be listening to ABBA and shopping at IKEA.
哦，我们确实如此。
Oh, we are.
对。
Yeah.
好吧，太好了。
Well, great.
你看，我特别喜欢这个，因为我是个真正的北欧迷。
You see, I love this because I'm a real scandophile.
所以我想，要是哈拉尔德三世赢了就好了。
So I kinda think, oh, if only Hardrada had won, it'd great.
我们会都在看一些疯狂的剧。
Be We'd all be watching Some mad.
关于那里的悲惨剧目，就是这样。
Miserable dramas about the There we are.
不。
No.
我认为，正如我们讨论过的，法国的吸引力会太强。
I think that for the as we've discussed, I think that the gravitational pull of France would have been too great.
但我们可以看出，因为斯堪的纳维亚的情况也是如此。
But and we can we can tell that because the same is true of Scandinavia.
斯堪的纳维亚王国也开始建造哥特式大教堂，参加十字军东征，拥有骑士和城堡等。
The Scandinavian kingdoms likewise start building Gothic cathedrals and going on crusade and having knights and castles and things.
所以，我认为这是一种无法抗拒的文化吸引力。
So it it's it's a cultural pull that I think was not to be resisted.
好的。
Okay.
我来跟你讲一个关于挪威的事。
Here's one for you on on the subject of Norway.
这是来自斯蒂芬·詹森的。
This is from Stefan Jensen.
因为我是个挪威人，所以我当然要问，哈拉尔德在黑斯廷斯战役失败前，离建立一个伟大的、令人惊叹的北海帝国究竟有多近？
Since I'm Norwegian, I, of course, have to ask how close to a great and awesome Norwegian led North Sea Empire was king Harald really before he lost at Hastings?
如果时间稍微错开几周，他有可能成功吗？还是说这从一开始就是个注定失败的计划？
Could he have made it, e g, the timing had differed by a few weeks, or was it a doom project from the beginning?
所以，当然，说的是哈拉尔德·哈德拉达。
So Well, that Harald Hardrada, of course.
因为克努特的例子表明，这并不一定是从一开始就注定失败的，因为克努特确实建立过北海帝国。
Because the the the example of Cnut suggests that it wasn't necessarily doom from the beginning, because Cnut had a North Sea Empire.
但我认为反对的观点是，北海帝国本身就容易分裂。
But I suppose the argument against it is that North Sea Empire was was liable to fragmentation.
所以，克努特的帝国正如我们所知瓦解了，也许即使哈拉尔在斯坦福桥战役中获胜，接着又击败了威廉——而根据你的说法，这由于技术差距几乎不可能——英格兰是否仍会留在北海帝国之中，还是说这个帝国由于其内在特性必然分裂？
So, Cnut's empire breaks up, as we know, and maybe even if Hardrada had won Stamford Bridge, if he'd then beaten William, which is, according to you, unlikely because of the technological gap, Would England have remained as part of a North Sea empire, or would that empire have inherently fragmented because it because of its sort of Yeah.
我认为它会分裂。
I think it would have fragmented.
四分五裂，没错。
Scattered yeah.
我的意思是，
I mean,
嗯，哈拉尔·哈德拉达已经是个老人了。
Well, Harald Hardrada was an old guy.
他都五十岁了吧？
He's 50, isn't he?
他那时大约五十岁，是的。
About 50 when he Yeah.
所以输了。
So lost.
他再过五到十年就死了，是的。
He's dead in five, ten years Yeah.
大概吧。
Probably.
在这一时期，你一直会看到一系列继承危机。
And one of the things you get throughout this period, right, is a series of succession crises.
这就是为什么王冠频繁易主，而在十月之前这百年间的历史如此混乱的原因。
So that's why the crown is swapping so much, and it's such a confusing story in the sort of hundred years before October.
所以还会出现另一次继承危机。
So there'd have been another succession crisis
我想是的。
Well, I guess
关于德拉达的死因。
of how Drada died.
那之后会发生什么？
And what would have happened then?
我想是托斯蒂格。
Tostig, I guess.
是的。
Yeah.
会另有一位伯爵挑战他，可能会有人从挪威赶来，整个局面会变得一团糟。
There would have been some other earl would have challenged him, and it would have been somebody would have pitched up from Norway, and it would have all have been a bit of a mess.
托斯蒂格，托斯蒂格。
Tostig Tostig
然后诺曼人就会在
And then the Normans would have come over at
某个时候登陆，对吧？
some point, wouldn't they?
然后，你知道，
And then, you know,
谁还会再来争夺呢？
who would have had another go?
我的意思是，但很明显，托斯蒂格认为，当哈罗德去世后，王位就是我的了。
I mean but but clearly, Tostig is thinking, I'm going to get the throne when Harold when Harold dies.
我一直对托斯蒂格挺有好感的。
Always had a soft spot for Tostig.
我们的猫就是以他命名的。
He our cat our cat is named after him.
所以我们有哈罗德、托斯蒂格和埃迪丝。
So we had it we had we had Harold, Tostig, and Edith.
哈罗德跑掉了，但我们还留着托斯蒂格和埃迪丝。
Harold Harold wandered off, but we still got Tostig and Edith.
哈罗德肯定会向其他人宣誓效忠的。
Harold would love to swear an oath to some other Yes.
他确实这样做了。
He did.
他确实这样做了。
He did.
他走丢了。
He wandered off.
在南伦敦拥有一处住宅。
South London home owned.
是的。
Yeah.
他确实这样做了。
He did.
他现在在别的家里。
He's with some other home.
哦，这真让人难过，汤姆。
Oh, that's sad, Tom.
警惕的嘲讽。
Watchful mockery.
多么创伤的时刻啊。
What a traumatic moment.
是的。
It is.
但我们还是把它扔了。
But we still have tossed it.
看，哈罗德·哈德拉德，我们又来一个。
Here's So Harold Hardrider, we've got another.
是的。
Yeah.
又一个给你的。
Another one for you.
帕特里克八五一号。
Patrick eight five one.
威廉真正的胜利是否在于以骑兵取代了维京人的战争方式？
Was William's real triumph ending the Viking way of war in favor of cavalry?
如果是的话，为什么流亡的英格兰人逃到地中海后如此成功，比如在拜占庭的英格兰卫队？
If so, were the English exiles why why were the English exiles so successful in the Mediterranean after they fled, e g, the English guard in Byzantium?
是的。
Yeah.
所以拜占庭的英格兰卫队，这方面你比我更了解，汤姆。
So the English guard in Byzantium, you'll know more about this than me, Tom.
他们基本上是瓦兰吉卫队，已经存在很久了。
So they're basically the Varangian guard have been there for a while.
他们是皇帝的贴身护卫，主要从斯堪的纳维亚人中招募。
They're the emperor's kind of bodyguard, and they're recruited from Norsemen.
他们常常来自基辅罗斯等地，也就是北欧人建立的、通往如今乌克兰地区的贸易路线。
They've often come down from sort of Kievan Rus' and all that sort of stuff, the sort of trade routes that the Norse have established going down into what's now Ukraine.
但瓦兰吉人也吸纳了很多盎格鲁-撒克逊流亡者，对吧？
But the Vrangingar pick up a lot of Anglo Saxon exiles, don't they?
我这么说对吗？
Am I right?
没错。
That's right.
他们之所以令人畏惧，是因为他们奇特的胡子、项链以及酗酒的习惯。
And they're sort of feared because of their strange moustaches and necklaces and sort of hard drinking ways.
他们简直就是一群去了现代土耳其、行为恶劣的足球流氓，你知道的，就是现在土耳其那一带。
They're basically football hooligans who've gone to Turkey, modern day, you know, what's now Turkey and sort of behaving badly and and
却表现得挺和平的。
being peaceful and stuff.
瓦兰吉卫队跟随拜占庭人前往巴尔干地区对抗诺曼人，结果在一座谷仓里被诺曼人烧死。
The Vranking guard go with the Byzantines to confront the Normans and the Balkans after October and end up in a barn and the Normans burn them to death.
所以它
So it
好吧。
Alright.
所以他们并没有那么成功。
So they're not as successful as all that.
确实没有，很遗憾。
They're not, unfortunately.
但话又说回来，我认为，你知道的，英格兰国王的亲卫队——家臣兵，是欧洲最优秀的步兵。
But having said that, I think the, you know, the housecarls, the the the personal guard around the the English king are simply the best infantry in Europe.
所以在黑斯廷斯，
So what you have at Hastings,
他们使用的是盾墙战术，对吧？还有那些东西？
this is They've got the shield wall tactics, haven't they, and all that stuff?
这就像他们正在争夺欧洲杯一样。
This this is, you know, this is kinda European cup that they're they're going for.
这是最优秀的骑兵对阵最优秀的步兵。
It's the best cavalry against the best infantry.
黑斯廷斯战役中真正不同寻常的一点是，它整整打了一整天。
One of the things that's that's really unusual about Hastings is that it it goes on all day.
我的意思是，这对一场古代或中世纪的战斗来说真的很不寻常。
I mean, that's really unusual for an ancient battle or a medieval battle.
它们通常在一个小时内就结束了。
They're usually over in about an hour.
那确实是个夸张的说法。
That's an ex yeah.
我的意思是，人们常常低估了
I mean, one feeling underestimated
这场战斗有多疲惫。
is how exhausting.
是的。
Yeah.
那一定极其
It must have been absolutely
我的意思是，到结束时，他们几乎连武器都举不起来了。
I mean, barely able to lift their weapons at the end, you would assume.
很多人很可能只是因为太累了，再也无法继续战斗而死去。
A lot of them presumably just die because they're too tired to fight anymore.
是的。
Yeah.
我也这么认为。
I I think so.
而且令人印象深刻的是，诺曼人和英格兰人在某个时刻都看起来即将溃败。
And also, what's impressive is that both the Normans and the English at one point look as if they're going to break.
于是有传言说，威廉一度被误认为已阵亡，但随后他摘下头盔，重新鼓舞了士气。
So there's the rumor that not that William's been killed and that they're such and then William takes his his helmet off and rallies them.
然后盎格鲁-撒克逊人从山坡上冲了下来。
And then the Anglo Saxons have run down the hill.
很多人被杀，但他们依然没有溃散。
Lots of them get killed, but they still don't break.
即使盾墙被突破后，他们依然坚守在高地之上。
And even when even when the shield wall breaks, they remain on the top.
而这正是这场战役如此决定性的原因——哈罗德没有逃跑。
And that's that's essentially what that's that's why the battle is so decisive is that Harold doesn't flee.
他坚守在原地。
He stays where he is.
但是，汤姆，关于这场战役的记载，我的意思是，这些描述究竟有多少是真实发生的事，又有多少只是标准的战斗叙事套路？
But, Tom, the accounts of the battle, I mean, how much is that actually what happened, and how much of that is just sort of standard battle narrative, the formulae?
我的意思是，人们总是在战斗中几乎被杀死，然后举起头盔喊‘我还活着’，假装撤退，又被追击，再折返回来。
I mean, people are always almost being killed in battles and lifting their helmets and saying, I'm still alive, and and and sort of staging feints and being chased and then coming back.
而这些记载，史料说
And isn't that Well, the sources the sources say
关于黑斯廷斯战役的史料，其可靠性相当不错。
about sources for medieval relative to medieval battle are are pretty good for Hastings.
它们是由亲历者、目击者或采访过目击者的人写成的，而且还有贝叶挂毯作为佐证。
You know, they're written by people who were there or who witnessed it or who talked to eyewitnesses, and you've got the Beow Tapestry.
当然，有些细节我们仍然不得而知。
So obviously, there are details that we don't know.
这已经被神话化了。
It's mythologized.
人们无法确切知道。
People can't know for sure.
但我认为，诺曼人和英格兰人相继溃败这一基本轮廓，在同时代的多个史料中以不同方式被反复提及。
But I think the basic outline and the thing about the both the Normans and then the English kind of breaking is repeated in different ways in near contemporary sources.
所以它们并不是互相抄袭。
So it's they are not copying one another.
它们显然是基于一种信念，即这件事确实发生过。
They're clearly drawing on a sense that this had actually happened.
因此，我对这一点是满意的。
So I'm I'm I'm happy with that.
我认为这件事确实发生了。
I think it happened.
但让我们回到关于拜占庭的瓦兰吉卫队和英格兰卫队的问题上，我认为这实际上是历史上最浪漫的故事之一。
But to just go back to the question for a second about the Varangian guard and the English guard in Byzantium, I think that's one of the most romantic stories in all history, actually.
我非常喜欢瓦兰吉卫队这类故事。
I love the Varangian guard sort of stuff.
你可能已经看过，我不记得我们之前播客里有没有聊过，圣索菲亚大教堂里哈尔夫·丹的涂鸦，我想是叫这个名字。
So you've probably seen, I can't remember if we've talked about this in the previous podcast, the graffiti in Hagia Sophia by Half Dan, I think.
他不是叫哈尔夫·丹吗？
Isn't he called Half Dan?
他是个哨兵之类的，然后在柱子上乱写一通，或者我记不清他具体是怎么做的了。
He he's a sentry or something, and he scribbles on a pillar or or I can't remember how he does it.
他把字刻在了墙上之类的。
He's etched it into the wall or something.
我们真该做个关于北欧人在东方的播客。
We really need to do a podcast on the Vikings in in the East.
那会很棒。
It'd be great.
嗯，我们之前聊过
Well, we talked in a
上一期节目我们谈到了罗斯玛丽·苏特克利夫的书《血仇》，讲的是一个英国男孩成为瓦兰吉卫队成员的故事。
previous episode about Rosemary Sutcliffe's book, Blood Feud, which is about an English boy who becomes a Varangian guard.
他变成了一个维京人，沿着河流而下，去了基辅，最后为皇帝效力。
And he becomes a Viking, and he goes down the the river, and he goes to Kiev, and then he ends up working for the emperor.
这内容太棒了。
It's great stuff.
我们其实应该专门做一期关于这本书的播客。
We should do a podcast just about that book, actually.
好了，我们来回答另一个问题。
Anyway, let's do another question.
好的。
Okay.
罗布·斯科特。
Rob Scott.
你想选一个吗？
Wanna pick one?
是的
Yeah.
罗布·斯科特。
Rob Scott.
关于国王哈罗德是被射中睾丸而非眼睛的传闻，有几分真实？
Is there any truth in the rumor that King Harold was shot in the balls rather than the eyeball?
这一点确实很少被提及，对吧？
And that's that's quite absent, isn't it?
因为我们即将做一期关于宦官的节目。
Because we're about to do one on eunuchs.
所以
So
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
我们的下一期播客。
Our next next podcast.
所以，多米尼克，你对哈罗德国王是被射中眼睛这件事怎么看？
So, Dominique, what's your take on the was King Harold shot in
眼睛之谜？
the eye mystery?
你其实可以对这个事件赋予任何你想当然的解读，但我认为它之所以能流传这么久，部分原因就在于挂毯中的那个画面。
You project onto this what you want, really, but I think it's endured for so long partly because of that that image in the tapestry.
据我所知，一些学者现在认为，挂毯中的画面展现了他死亡的两个阶段。
So the as far as I can understand, some scholars now think that the image in the tapestry show shows two stages of his death.
所以，他先被射中眼睛，然后倒下，接着他被
So he's shot in the eye, then he falls, then he's
是的。
Yeah.
这是一种说法。
That's one.
被砍杀。
Butchered.
是的。
Yeah.
但他手里还拿着一支长矛。
But then he's holding a spear.
那个拿着
That the guy with the
箭的人手里也拿着长矛。
arrow is holding a spear.
所以，对。
So Yeah.
我的意思是，我觉得哈罗德中箭而死的故事太精彩了，它之所以流传至今，是因为这比他只是被砍死在地上的说法更动人，不是吗？
I mean, I think that Harold shot in it is such a great story, and it's endured because it's I mean, it's a better story, isn't it, than he's just butchered on the ground.
中箭入眼之所以经典，是因为它引入了偶然性的元素。
The shot in the eye and because the shot in the eye introduces the element of contingency.
所以这让他更容易被看作一个浪漫的英雄。
So it makes it easier to see him as a romantic hero.
如果，如果那支箭没有正好射中他
If if only he the arrow hadn't hit him right in
眼睛
the eye
但也许他本可以获胜并
But but maybe he could have prevailed and
另一种看待它的方式是？
But the other way of seeing
是的？
like about it, is it?
这不是偶然，而是上帝的审判。
It's not contingency, that it's the judgment of god.
嗯，我知道你要说什么了。
Well, I knew this was coming.
因为实际上，现存最早的史料记载了这一点，也就是睾丸这一说法的来源：威廉在战场上看到哈罗德，于是召集了一些人，前去攻击哈罗德，将他残忍杀害，肢解尸体，砍下他的睾丸，然后斩下他的头颅。
Because because, actually, the the earliest extant source says that and this is where the the the testicle thing comes in, as it were, is that that William sees Harold on the battlefield, and he William gathers some men around him, and they go and attack Harold, and they butcher him, and they dismember him, and they hack off his testicles, and they behead him.
太棒了。
Great.
很好。
Nice.
很好。
And Nice.
我认为有趣的是，这种说法并没有被后人采纳。
I think that that what's interesting about that is that it it that is not a tradition that gets picked up.
我认为它没有被采纳的原因之一，是因为这会让威廉显得很糟糕。
And I think one of the reasons it doesn't get picked up is that it makes William look bad.
而威廉将黑斯廷斯之战描绘成我们把一切交由上帝裁决。
Whereas William has cast Hastings as being, you know, we're putting this before god.
上帝会审判。
God will judge.
如果战斗已经结束，你知道，哈罗德被射中眼睛的故事其实也很早就有。
And if the battle is finished you know, and the story that Harold gets shot in the eyes are are quite early.
如果真是这样，那显然证明上帝站在威廉一边。
If that happens, then, obviously, it proves that god is on on William's side.
所以我认为，这个问题——我的意思是，它非常有趣——被卷入了诺曼宣传和正当化的纷乱之中。
So I I think that question, I mean, it's a really interesting one, gets caught up in the snarl of Norman propaganda and justification.
他们可能希望人们这么想。
They might have wanted to think that.
说到浪漫和哈罗德，来自Pink Hays的一个问题是：国王哈罗德真的埋葬在沃尔瑟姆修道院吗？
And on the on the topic of of romance and Harold, one from Pink Hays, is king Harold really buried at Waltham Abbey?
我去过战场和沃尔瑟姆修道院，看过他们认为是他的坟墓，但那真的是他吗？
I've been to both battle and at Waltham Abbey and have seen what they assume is his grave, but is it him?
关于哈罗德结局的故事非常浪漫。
So the story of what happens to Harold is terribly romantic.
我真的不知道。
Just don't know.
有人说他也在博斯姆？
There a claim that he's also at Bosom?
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
That's right.
据说曾有人提议挖掘博斯姆的坟墓进行DNA检测，但申请被拒绝了，我想是这样。
And there has been an argument about permission was refused, I think, to dig up a grave in Bosom to do DNA testing or something.
我的意思是，汤姆，你觉得呢？
I mean, do you think, Tom?
你有确凿的答案吗？
Do you have a do you have a definitive answer?
不知道。
Don't know.
你怎么可能知道呢？
How can you?
我不知道。
I don't know.
但这个故事是这样的：最早的说法是，威廉拒绝将哈罗德的遗体交还给他的母亲。
But the the story well, so again, the earliest thing is that is that Harold is that William refuses to give the body of Harold to to Harold's mother.
没错。
That's right.
把它交给另一个诺曼人，
Give it to another Norman,
我想。
I think.
他们开个玩笑说，哈罗德的遗体应该放在潮间带上，面向大海。
They make a they make a joke that Harold's body should be put on the foreshore looking out to sea.
这挺有意思的，因为博斯姆就在海边。
And that that's kind of interesting because Bosom is on the sea.
它位于萨塞克斯海岸。
It's on the Sussex Coast.
所以也许就是这样，但有很多中世纪故事说他在这场战役中幸存下来，成了隐士。
So maybe that's the But there are a lot of medieval stories that he he survives the battle and becomes a hermit.
我喜欢这个。
I like that.
我也喜欢这个。
So I like that one.
所以
So
他会喜欢这个，也许他会来这里。
he'll like that Maybe he'll come here.
制作人告诉我们，我们只能再提一个问题。
We've been told by the producer that we can only do one more question.
所以我认为我们应该再提两个问题，以彰显一下。
So I think we should do two more questions just to Assert.
只是为了彰显某种可怜的、残存的对我们自己播客的控制权。
Just to to assert some pathetic some pathetic sort of vestige of power over our own podcast.
所以我觉得我们应该问康纳·穆恩的问题，因为这个问题非常关键，如果你能回答得非常关键的话。
So I think we should do Connor Moon's question because it's very crucial, if you can be very crucial.
康纳·穆恩问：当诺曼统治建立时，占人口十分之九的底层民众的生活发生了怎样的变化？
How, if all, if at all, says Conor Moon, did life change for the submerged nine tenths of the population when Norman rule was established?
对农民来说，生活是否照旧，还是发生了巨大变化？
Was it life as usual for the peasants, or were there big changes?
我想这确实是个非常重大的问题，对吧？
And I guess that's a really huge question, isn't it?
所以，你正生活在林肯郡或赫里福德郡的某个村庄里。
So, you're living in a village somewhere in Lincolnshire or Herefordshire.
这对你的生活究竟有多大的影响？
How much does this actually matter to you?
这不过是另一个精英阶层取代了旧的精英阶层吗？
Is the replacement of one elite by another?
这在你的生活中真的有重大区别吗，汤姆？
Know, does it make a big difference in your in your life, Tom?
我会告诉你，谁的生活发生了巨大变化——那就是奴隶。
Well, I'll tell you who it does make a big difference for is the slaves.
因为在盎格鲁-撒克逊时期的英格兰，大约十分之一的人口是奴隶，而诺曼征服实际上终结了这种制度。
Because about a tenth of the population in Anglo Saxon England are enslaved, and the Norman conquest effectively ends that.
有证据表明，威廉在意识形态上反对奴隶制，他认为奴隶制违背了上帝的旨意。
There is evidence that William is ideologically opposed to slavery, that he regards it as being contrary to god's will.
因此，你也可以把诺曼入侵视为一场反奴隶制运动，这倒是个有意思的角度，确实可以这么说。
So you could cast the Norman invasion as an anti slavery movement as well, which is something Well, you could.
没错，可以这么讲。
You could.
把这个观点也加进去。
To throw into the mix.
好的。
Okay.
关于诺曼征服带来的损失，这里有一个来自节目好友蒂姆·瓦兹比·伯尼的问题。
And so on that topic of what gets lost with the Norman conquest, here is one from Tim Vazby Burney, friend of the show.
当你想到十月时，盎格鲁-撒克逊文化的多个方面就此终结了。
When you think of October, various aspects of Anglo Saxon culture came to an end.
我们已经谈过奴隶制。
So we've talked about slavery.
这是其中一个终结的方面。
That's one aspect that comes to an end.
是的。
Yeah.
我们最为此感到惋惜的是哪一个呢？
Which of these are we most saddened by?
所以，多米尼克，你在这方面是个浪漫主义者。
So, Dominic, you're a a romantic on this.
我是。
I am.
你看，我所怀念的，汤姆，可能是完全虚构的东西——那就是盎格鲁-撒克逊人传统的自由，你知道的，普通英格兰人的自由，被这些法国化的人碾压了。我确信这完全是杜撰的，但我就是喜欢诺曼枷锁这个浪漫的想象。
So you see, I what I mourn, Tom, is something that probably is utterly made up, which is the sort of the traditional liberties of the Anglo Saxon, you know, the Anglo the ordinary the ordinary the Middle England, you know, crushed by these Frenchified and I'm sure that's utterly invented, but I kind of like the romance of the of the Norman yoke.
我想，根据史料显示，诺曼统治实际上并不怎么愉快。
And I suppose there's you know, the sources suggest that actually Norman rule wasn't a bundle of laughs.
我的意思是，英格兰方面的史料说，人们哭泣哀嚎，向神呼求，因为压迫实在太严重了。
I mean, people sort of English sources say, you know, they they sort of wept and cried out and to god, such was the oppression.
所以我认为，显然有一种感觉，那就是某种程度的自由、自治或文化完整性正在丧失，我想是这样。
So I think there was there is obviously a sense of of of some degree of liberty or self government or cultural integrity being lost, I guess.
当然，另一样失去的东西是头发。
The other thing that's lost, of course, is the hair.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，在巴约挂毯里，盎格鲁-撒克逊人看起来确实毛发浓密，对吧？
So there's a sort of hairiness to Anglo Saxons, isn't there, in the in the Bayeux Tapestry.
他们不是都有胡子和胡须吗？
Don't they have moustaches and stuff?
是的。
Yeah.
所以他们看起来就像村子里的人一样。
So they look like the village people or something.
而且这种特征显然在某种程度上已经消失了，不是吗？
And that's that's obviously been been lost to some extent, hasn't it?
我的意思是，作为一个剃须干净的人，我想我
I mean, as a clean shaven person myself, I suppose it's
你从未想过留个戈德温森式发型吗？
Are you never tempted by a by a kind of Godwinson star?
我觉得我会看起来很滑稽。
I think I I think I'd look ridiculous.
比我现在还要滑稽。
Mean, more ridiculous than I do now.
你觉得吗？
You think so?
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得你应该试试。
I think you should try it.
也许吧。
Maybe.
好吧。
Alright.
你觉得什么是被遗忘的？
What do you think's been?
你觉得
What do
我的意思是，
you I mean,
你是个典型的诺曼人，诺曼式的清教徒。
you're another Norman Norman conscientist.
对我来说，我认为被破坏的是英格兰教会的独特性，以及我们对圣徒、盎格鲁-撒克逊圣徒的认同感，正如你所知，我们曾研究过圣卡斯伯特。
For me, I'm I I think what gets broken is the distinctive quality of the English church and our sense of the saints, the Anglo Saxon saints, which, as you'll know from we did the Saint Cuthbert.
圣库特伯特确实被占用了。
Saint Cuthbert does get appropriated.
相当多的圣人都被占用了。
Quite a lot of them get appropriated.
但这是因为诺曼人进驻并接管了所有大教堂、修道院以及一切，那种与征服前教会及其传统和圣人之间有机联系的感觉，就这样被打破了。
But be be because, essentially, the Normans move in and they take over all the cathedrals and monasteries monasteries and everything, that sense of a kind of organic link with the pre conquest church and its traditions and its saints, that that gets broken.
我对这一点感到难过。
And and I I'm sad about that.
尽管可能不会因为你不留胡子而那么难过，
Although possibly not as sad about the fact that you don't have a moustache,
我真的觉得，
and I really think that
你应该认真考虑通过留胡子来肯定自己作为自由盎格鲁-撒克逊人的权利。
you should seriously think about affirming your rights as a freeborn Anglo Saxon by growing one.
汤姆，最后一个问题是，我刚听了你的话后想到的。
Tom, one last question, which has occurred to me from what you you just said.
你认为，蒂姆·瓦兹比·伯尼牧师提出这样一个问题，以及将1066年视为一种断裂和自由丧失的象征，这在多大程度上影响了英国例外论？
Do you think that the the fact that that such a question is being asked by the reverend Tim Vazby Burney and the sense of twenty sixty six as a rupture and a lost sense of liberty, do you think that plays a part in English exceptionalism?
英国对自己的认知是独特的。
England's sense of itself is distinct.
我认为，当我们一开始讨论这个问题时，十月在中学课程中的地位至关重要，它正是从这里开始的。
I think that I think it's very, very I when we talked about this right at the beginning about it, the the role that October plays in the secondary school curriculum, that it's right at the beginning.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为，如果英国是例外的，那它的例外之处在于，它将英国人被击败的故事奉为国家神话。
I think that that if England is exceptional, it's exceptional in the way that it enshrines, as is national myth, the story in which the English get defeated.
我的意思是，苏格兰人或美国人并不会这样做。
I mean, that's not something that the Scots or the Americans do.
这看起来非常非常奇怪。
It seems very, very odd.
我认为这确实某种程度上缓和了英国人的胜利主义，至少是如此。
And I think that that does kind of I think it's always slightly served to qualify the English triumphalism, certainly.
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