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在十世纪，欧洲宗教对立尖锐，最真正多元文化的职业莫过于阉人贸易。
In the tenth century, a time of stark religious divides in Europe, nothing was more authentically multicultural than the business of supplying eunuchs.
位于基督教世界东翼的日耳曼战士，为萨克森皇帝作战时，会俘虏大量斯拉夫人。
German warriors on the eastern flank of Christendom, fighting the wars of the Saxon emperors, would take huge numbers of Slavs captive.
其中最俊美的男孩会被带到韦尔东，由犹太外科医生实施阉割，切除睾丸，有时甚至包括阴茎。
The most attractive boys among them would then be taken to Verdun, where Jewish surgeons would castrate them, removing the testicles and sometimes the penis.
这些男孩随后被穿越比利牛斯山脉，横跨西班牙，送往南部的伊斯兰埃米尔国，并在那里的宫殿中被出售。
The boys would then be transported across the Pyrenees, taken across Spain to the Islamic Emirates in the South, and sold into the palaces there.
欢迎来到《历史其余部分》。
Welcome to The Rest is History.
和我一起的是多米尼克·桑德布鲁克。
With me is Dominic Sandbrook.
多米尼克，你翘着腿？
Dominic, crossing your legs?
这真是个令人痛苦的话题，不是吗，汤姆？
This is quite a painful subject, isn't it, Tom?
我以一种奇怪的方式享受了这项研究，但事后我很难再好好吃晚饭。
I I enjoyed researching this in a weird way, but I also found it very hard to have my dinner afterwards.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yes.
我们当时吃了肉丸，不幸的是，这实在不太合适。
We had meatballs, unfortunately, so it wasn't ideal.
关于这个话题，有太多可怕的笑话了，但归根结底，这其实是一个充满巨大苦难的故事。
There there are there are so many kind of gruesome jokes on this, and and yet, of course, it is, at bottom, as it were, a tale of considerable suffering.
确实如此。
It is.
我想，我们之所以能做这件事，汤姆，唯一的原因就是它再也不会发生了。
And I guess it's the only way we can the only reason we can do it, Tom, is because it doesn't happen anymore.
因为如果这还是一个正在发生的丑闻，你就不会去制作一个半开玩笑的播客来谈论它，毕竟这是一件极其残忍的事情，不是吗？
Because if it was a a living scandal, then you wouldn't do a sort of semi humorous podcast about it, because it is an utterly gruesome business, isn't it?
不过，当然了，
Although, of course,
我的意思是，看看积极的一面。
I mean, the the the looking off the positives.
是的。
Yeah.
正如我们将看到的，成为宦官并不总是完全的坏事，因为这在某些宦官拥有相当权力的社会中，也是一种成为重要人物的途径。
As we will see, becoming a eunuch wasn't always totally a 100% bad news because it was also a way to becoming a very significant player in the kind of societies where eunuchs had considerable power.
所以，我们基本上决定要做的是十大奇怪战争，对吧？
And so, basically, what we decided was that we would we did the top 10 weird wars, didn't we?
今天，我们要讲的是十大宦官。
And today, we're going to do the top 10 eunuchs.
是的。
Yes.
我的意思是，如何把名单缩小到十个是个有趣的问题，因为有太多杰出的宦官了，但我认为我们选得不错。
We've got I mean, how how to narrow it down to 10 is an interesting question because there are so many great eunuchs, but I think we've got a good selection.
至少我有。
Well, at least I have.
所以你选了五个，我选了五个。
So you've chosen five, and I've chosen five.
你先来吗？
Do you want to kick off?
当然。
Sure.
那我先介绍这位堪称宦官中的宦官，可以说是宦官鉴赏家的代表。
Well, I'm going to kick off with the eunuch's eunuch, as I like to think of him, the connoisseur's eunuch.
他叫巴加瓦斯。
So he's a he's a fellow called Bagawas.
一些听众可能知道巴加瓦斯，因为他最终被亚历山大大帝选中了。
So some listeners will know of Bagawas because basically he ends up being picked up by Alexander the Great.
亚历山大已经入侵了波斯。
So Alexander has invaded Persia.
他击败了波斯国王大流士，并正迅速横扫波斯帝国。
He's defeated the Persian king, Darius, and he's sort of charging up through the Persian empire.
他最终抵达里海沿岸的一个叫哈卡尼亚的地方，根据亚历山大生平的记载，他在那里收留了这位曾为大流士服务的宦官。
He ends up near the shores of the Caspian in a place called Harkania, and there, according to the accounts of Alexander's life, he basically sort of picks up this guy who's been a eunuch for Darius.
波斯人和几乎所有古代帝国一样，都有宦官。
Now the Persians, like almost all ancient empires, had eunuchs.
他们的宫廷中设有宦官，而宦官对皇帝或国王来说很有用，因为他们无法生育。
They had eunuchs in their court, and of course a eunuch is useful to an emperor or to a king because they can't have children.
他们不会构成威胁。
They're not really a rival.
他们无法建立自己的王朝，因此在这一点上被视为可靠。
They can't found a dynasty of their own, so they are seen as trustworthy in that sense.
他们算是不错的随从。
They're sort of good hangers on.
巴加瓦斯显然是一位年轻人。
Bagawas is clearly a young man.
我们对他的了解并不多。
We don't know that much about him.
史料称他容貌出众，正值青春年少。
The sources say he was exceptional in beauty and in the very flower of boyhood.
但我们其实还是不太了解他。
And ever we we really don't know that much.
有一份史料来自昆图斯·库尔提乌斯·鲁弗斯，他是罗马作家，生活在事件发生数百年后，他笔下的巴瓜形象非常负面。
There's one source, Quintus Curtius Rufus, who writes centuries after the event, a Roman writer, and he says he basically paints a very unflattering portrait of Bagua.
他非常狡猾。
He's cunning.
他像猫一样机敏。
He is sort of feline.
他详细描述了巴瓜如何智胜一位名叫奥辛尼斯的地方总督，并成功在亚历山大心中埋下对他的猜忌。
He he has this big description of him outsmarting, a local satrap called Orsines and basically poisoning Alexander's mind against him.
但很难判断这些说法是否属实，还是只是罗马人将这种狡诈、阴柔的行为投射到了亚历山大、波斯人和希腊人身上。
But it's very hard to know whether that there's any truth in that or whether that's just sort of a Roman projecting this stuff onto Alexandria, onto the Persians, and onto the Greeks, you know, this sort of cunning, effeminate behavior.
所以你并不清楚，这其中有多少是偏见，而非真正的历史史料。
So you don't know how much prejudice there is in this rather rather than actual sort of historical source material.
普鲁塔克记载了一个很好的故事。
There is a good story in Plutarch.
普鲁塔克说，亚历山大从印度返回时，刚经历了一段可怕的沙漠跋涉，随后他们举办了一场盛大的狂欢，所有人都喝得酩酊大醉，载歌载舞。
Plutarch says that when Alexander was coming back from India, he's just got back this dreadful sort of desert crossing, and they have this big sort of basically, they have a big piss up where they all get drunk and they all do singing and dancing.
亚历山大醉得不成样子。
Alexander is absolutely loaded.
他完全醉倒了。
He's completely wasted.
巴伽瓦斯也加入其中，表演了歌唱和舞蹈，与众人竞技。
And Bagawas does a bit of singing and dancing, competition.
马其顿士兵们大声欢呼，催促亚历山大去亲吻他。
And the Macedonian soldiers all shout and roar and tell Alexander that he should kiss him.
而普鲁塔克说，亚历山大张开双臂，温柔地拥抱了他。
And Alexander, he says says Plutarch, threw his arms around him and embraced him tenderly.
但从这一切中很难判断，巴加瓦斯是否真的如一些人所认为的那样，是亚历山大的情人。
Now what is very hard to tell from all this is whether was Bagawas really Alexander's lover, as some people think he may have been.
他是否是一名翻译，一种亚历山大在帝国各地巡行时与当地波斯显贵沟通的中间人？
Was he an interpreter, a kind of go between with the local Persian notables who Alexander met as he kind of went through the empire?
但有趣的是，他是一个被浪漫化的宦官。
But what's interesting is he is a romanticized eunuch.
因此，他最著名的是玛丽·雷诺兹小说《波斯少年》中的主角。
So he's most famously the hero of Mary Reynolds' book, The Persian Boy.
玛丽·雷诺兹将他作为她关于亚历山大的宏伟三部曲中的核心人物之一。
So Mary Reynolds used him in one of the centerpiece of her great trilogy about Alexander.
她以巴古阿作为叙述者。
She uses Bagua as the narrator.
我们目睹了巴古阿被阉割的过程。
So we're with Bagua when he's castrated.
我们通过他的视角看到了亚历山大。
We see Alexander through this.
我们和巴戈阿斯一起经历了这个可怕的场景。
We are so with Bagua as a terrible scene.
对吧？
Speech, aren't we?
所以
So
任何读过这段的男性，都会不自觉地夹紧双腿。
any male who has read that sequence, that's definitely you crossing your legs.
但这是一种
But it's a
非常有趣的一点，因为玛丽·雷尼克是一位同性恋作家。
really interesting one because Mary Renwick was a, of course, a gay writer.
因此，她的许多古世界题材作品中都蕴含着同性恋的潜文本。
So there's this sort of gay subtext in a lot of her ancient world books.
而在这一部中，亚历山大与巴戈阿斯的关系就像一段伟大的爱情故事，不是吗？
And in this, the Alexander, Bagoas relationship is this sort of great love story, isn't it?
所以巴戈阿斯是唯一一个不同于其他所有阴险政客的人，他真心爱着亚历山大，忠贞不二，没有任何个人目的，而这显然与罗马史料——比如昆图斯·库尔提乌斯·鲁弗斯——将他描绘成一个心怀巨大阴谋、阴险又矫揉造作的形象完全相反。
So Bagoas is the one guy who really everybody else is a conniving politician, but Bagoas is the one person who loves Alexander and is true to him and has no agenda, which is obviously completely the opposite of the way that the Roman sources, so Quintus Curtius Rufus, painted him as having this sort of colossal agenda, I mean, this sort of conniving, foppish figure.
我想这触及了我们看待宦官的核心问题。
And I guess that cuts to their heart, as it were, of the way we sort of see eunuchs.
人们之所以拥有宦官，是因为他们认为宦官可靠，认为他们值得信赖。
So people had eunuchs because they thought they were reliable, because they thought they could be trusted.
但对很多人来说，宦官身上似乎有一种固有的不可信之处，我认为这是因为宦官被视为不自然，这也解释了为什么历史文献中对他们的看法常常呈现出二元对立。
But for a lot of people, there was something inherently untrustworthy, I think because or unnatural about a eunuch, and that explains the sort of the dualism with which they've often been seen in historical sources.
因此，我接下来要谈的是一个罗马宦官。
So mine, following up on that, is a Roman eunuch.
我们不知道他的真名，但他被赋予的名字叫斯波鲁斯。
And we don't know his real name, but the name he was given was Sporus.
是的。
Yeah.
基本上是希腊语中‘精液’的意思。
Basically kind of Greek for spunk.
所以这是一个相当残忍的绰号。
So a kind of very cruel nickname.
他并不是奴隶，而是一个被皇帝尼禄阉割的自由男孩。
And he was not a slave, but a a free a free boy who who got castrated by the emperor Nero.
他被阉割是有特定原因的，因为尼禄疯狂地爱上了他的妻子，这位妻子有个极富魅力的名字——波佩亚·萨宾娜。
And he got castrated for a very particular reason, which was that Nero was absolutely madly in love with his wife who had the fabulous name Papea Sabina.
就像皮特·汤森德唱的那样，她曾说：‘希望我在变老之前死去。’
And like Pete Townsend, she'd said, hope I die before I get old.
这正是她最著名的特点。
This was her great thing.
她基本上是那种被投射到克利奥帕特拉身上的、关于奢华女性的诸多神话的原型。
She she's basically the kind of archetype for a lot of the myths about luxurious women that get projected onto Cleopatra.
据说她曾用驴奶沐浴。
So she's the one who supposedly bathed in Ass's milk.
好的。
Okay.
她拥有一系列在罗马最时尚的化妆品。
She had a a brand a range of cosmetics that was the most fashionable in Rome.
所以男人们都想和她睡觉。
So men wanted to sleep with her.
女人们都想成为她。
Women wanted to be her.
她简直是前沿潮流的代表。
She was just tremendously cutting edge.
但快到她去世的时候了。
But near she died.
传言说她怀了尼禄的孩子，而尼禄从赛马场晚归。
And the rumor was that that she was pregnant with Nero's child, and Nero came in late from the races.
她不停地责备他。
She nagged him.
尼禄踢了她的肚子，导致流产，夺走了她的生命。
Nero kicked her in the stomach, and the resulting miscarriage killed her.
我们不知道这是否属实，但可以肯定的是，尼禄的悲痛达到了惊人的程度。
We don't know whether that's true, but it's definite that Nero's grief was on a titanic scale.
尽管他再次结婚，娶了一位非常优雅、有教养的罗马女性，但他对帕珀亚的思念如此深切，以至于希望她能 physically 陪伴在身边。
And although he marries again, a kind of again, a kind of very classy, sophisticated Roman woman, He missed Papea so badly that he wanted to have her physically with him.
于是他派出探子寻找长得像帕珀亚的人，最终找到了一个酷似帕珀亚的男孩。
And so he sends scouts out to look for someone who looks like Papea, and they find this boy who looks like Papea.
因此，他显然是一位极其俊美的少年。
So he's clearly an incredibly beautiful young boy.
而这，当然也是阉割的主要原因——阻止青春期的发育。
And that, of course, is a major reason for castration, is that you halt process of puberty.
罗马人对此非常热衷。
And the Romans were very keen on that.
因此，他们有各种方法，比如在腋下涂抹蚂蚁卵以阻止毛发生长，或将羔羊睾丸的血液涂抹在脸颊上以抑制胡须生长。
So there's all kinds of they they would rub ants' eggs on onto the armpits to stop hair from growing and blood from lamb's testicles onto the cheeks to stop the beard from growing.
但最残忍的做法，还是对人进行阉割。
But the most brutal thing that you did was was to castrate someone.
这就是尼禄所做的。
So this is what Nero does.
于是，这个可怜的男孩被命名为帕佩亚·萨比娜，穿上帕佩亚的长袍，梳成帕佩亚那样的发型。
And so this this this poor boy gets called Papea Sabina and gets dressed in Papea's robes, has his hair done as Papea had done.
无论尼禄去哪里，这个斯波鲁斯·帕佩亚都随行，不是以宦官的身份，而是以妻子的身份生活。
And wherever Nero goes, this this Sporus Papea goes and lives out the life not as a eunuch, but as a wife.
这真是一个可怕的故事。
And this is so so so it's a kind of terrible story.
这是一个可怕的故事。
It's a terrible story.
就在尼禄被推翻并自杀前不久，帕佩奥斯·博里斯送给尼禄一幅普罗塞庇涅被普鲁托劫走的画像。
And at at one point, shortly before Nero gets toppled and commits suicide, Papeios Boris gives to Nero an image of Proserpine being abducted by Pluto.
即丰收女神的女儿被死亡之神强暴并带入冥界。
So the the daughter of of of the goddess of the harvest being raped by the god of death and taken down into the underworld.
你能看到其中蕴含的种种心理共鸣。
And you can see all the kind of psychological resonance there.
尼禄死后，帕佩亚萨比娜陪在他身边，扮演哀悼妻子的角色，随后被罗马禁卫军首领尼菲迪乌斯·萨比努斯收留。
And then when when Nero dies, Paparesubaina is there with him, kind of mourns him, plays the the role of the mourning wife, gets picked up by the the head of the praetorians, so the the imperial guard in Rome.
这是一个非常阴险的人物，自称是卡利古拉的私生子。
Very, very sinister guy called Nymphidius Sabinus, who claimed to be the illegitimate son of Caligula.
如果真是如此，那他确实继承了大量令人不快的特质。
Certainly, if it was, it inherited quite a lot of the unpleasantness.
他想自立为帝，于是将斯波鲁斯当作战利品，当作帝国统治的象征掳走。
He wants to make himself emperor, and he seizes Sporus as a kind of trophy, as a kind of icon of of imperial rule.
但他最终被边缘化了。
He he he he falls by the wayside.
加尔巴是一位正直高尚的人物，对宦官妻子毫无兴趣，他成为皇帝后不久就被推翻，取而代之的是奥托——他曾是帕佩亚的丈夫，而尼禄为了迎娶帕佩亚曾将他驱逐。
Galba, a kind of upstanding, upright figure who would have no time with the eunuch brides, becomes emperor but rapidly gets dispatched in turn, gets succeeded by a guy called Otho, who had previously been Papea's husband, and Nero who got rid of him so that he could marry Papea.
他随后又收留了斯波鲁斯·帕佩亚，并显然也被她深深吸引。
He then picks up Sporus Papea and obviously is is transfixed by him her as well.
他后来被维特里乌斯杀害，后者抵达罗马，自立为帝，并宣布要把斯波鲁斯扔进竞技场，让装扮成哈迪斯的角斗士们集体强暴他，以此重现那幕场景；就在那时，可怜的斯波鲁斯自杀了。
He he gets dispatched by a guy called Vitellius, who then arrives in Rome, declares himself emperor, and announces that his what he's going to do with Sporus is put him into the arena and have him gang raped by, presumably, by by by gladiators dressed as Hades, so to kind of replicate this thing, at which point poor Sporis kills himself.
哇。
Wow.
这真是一个可怕至极的故事，让人深刻感受到当时暴行与残忍的规模。
It's That's not a good a horrible, horrible story that kind of reminds you of the scale of the brutality and the cruelty that could underpin.
斯波鲁斯多大了，汤姆？
How old is Sporus, Tom?
你怎么知道他的年龄？
How do you know how old he is?
十二或十三岁。
12 or 13.
我的意思是，正处于青春期的边缘，我想。
I mean, on the cusp of puberty, I would imagine.
所以这或许是个很好的时机。
So maybe this is a very good moment.
快点，我们已经谈到了两位古代宦官。
Quickly, we've talked about two ancient eunuchs.
那么这个主题究竟是什么？
Now what is it about?
我的意思是，作为一名古代历史学家，是什么让宦官对古代宫廷如此有吸引力？
I mean, as an ancient historian, what is it about eunuchs that made them so attractive to ancient courts?
人们为什么想要他们？
Why do people want them?
为什么会有如此庞大的宦官贸易？
Why is there this huge trade in them?
为什么这些人对我们来说很令人不安，但对他们来说显然并不令人不安？
Why are people, you know, disturbing to us, but clearly they weren't disturbing.
你知道，对亚历山大来说并不令人不安，对尼禄来说也不令人不安。
You know, weren't disturbing to Alexander, weren't disturbing to Nero.
他们到底有什么特别之处？
What is it about them?
嗯，我想我们已经触及了所有这些方面。
Well, I think we've touched on all of them.
他们不能发生性关系，也不能让女人怀孕。
They they they can't they can't have sex or get women pregnant.
但他们可以发生性关系。
But they can have sex.
他们可以发生性关系，因为人们常说阉人是出色的情人。
They can have sex because it's often said eunuchs were great lovers.
但他们不能在发生性关系的同时让女人怀孕。
But they can't have sex and have women get get women pregnant.
因此，从象征意义上讲，他们被用来守护后宫。
So archetypally, they are used to guard haremes.
正如你所说，他们不能生育。
Also, as you said, they can't have children.
同样，因为他们不能生育，所以被认为更加忠诚。
Again, they can't have children, so they are seen to be more loyal.
就像斯波里斯的情况，还有可能像巴加瓦斯那样，我们推测，他们的外貌也很出众。
And as in the case of Sporis and probably in the case of Bagawas, I mean, we would guess, their physical beauty.
这是一种保持他们身体美貌完整的想法，不让他们长胡须、长痘痘之类的。
It's it's the idea of of keeping that physical beauty intact and not letting them kind of sprout whiskers or acne or whatever.
但你提到的另一个问题是，你说加尔巴并不是那种会花时间在宦官身上的人。
But the one other question that you raised is that so you said Galba wasn't the kind of person who would have any time for eunuchs.
那么，是否总有一些人从原则上反对宦官制度——如果这个词成立的话——认为他们有问题？
So are there always people who think there's something wrong about them who are who are opposed on principle to eunuchism, if that's a word?
是的。
Yeah.
在罗马宫廷中，确实如此。
In the in the Roman court, definitely.
在罗马宫廷里，他们被视为阴险且带有东方色彩。
In the Roman court, they're seen as as sinister and oriental.
是的。
Yeah.
这不是一个正直的罗马人会拥有的东西。
Not the kind of thing that an upstanding Roman would have.
因此，他们对那些想要推翻传统的人而言，反而成了一种反主流文化的存在。
And so they become kind of countercultural for people who want to push things out.
所以，奥古斯都的首席顾问梅塞纳乌斯，身边总是跟着两个宦官，这表明他有意挑战正统精英阶层的规范。
So so Mycenaeus, Augustus' great adviser, he's flanked by two eunuchs, and this is a kind of mark of his willing that, you know, he's kind of tweaking the noses of the respectable establishment.
提比略的谋士贾努斯先生，身边有一个名叫‘宝贝’的宦官。
Sir Janus, who is Tiberius' consigliere, he has a he has a eunuch called Boy Toy.
天哪。
Oh my god.
显然，你能明白为什么他会这么做，而且，这又是那种在挑战底线的行为，我想。
Obviously, you can see why he's and, again, he's you know, it's it's it's kind of pushing the edge out, I guess.
但随着时间推移，正如我们将在下一个例子中看到的那样，罗马社会对宦官逐渐变得习以为常。
But but in due course, as we as we will see when we come to my next choice, actually, the Roman world becomes more habituated to eunuchs.
但你的下一步是什么？
But what's what's your next step?
好的。
Okay.
所以我现在要跳到很后面的时间段。
So I'm going far forward in time.
我可以这么做吗？
Am I allowed to?
我们似乎在时间线上来回跳跃，对吧？
We're sort of ranging about chronologically, aren't we?
所以我打算快速跳过去，因为这个人并不是一个制度化的宦官。
So I'm gonna rush forward because this isn't somebody who a sort of institutionalized eunuch.
他是一个特例。
He's somebody who's a bit of a one off.
他叫托马斯·H。
He's called Thomas H.
科贝特，波士顿·科贝特。
Corbett, Boston Corbett.
我知道你了解这个故事，汤姆，因为我们之前聊过。
So I know you know this story, Tom, because we were talking about it earlier.
所以简而言之，他就是那个开枪击毙亚伯拉罕·林肯刺客约翰·威尔克斯·布斯的人。
So he is the man basically, to get the long story short, he's the man who shoots and kills John Wilkes Booth, the assassin of Abraham Lincoln.
这是一个不同类型的案例，因为这个人是自己实施了阉割，而不是小时候被人阉割的。
And so this is a different kind of unit, because this is somebody who is basically autocastrated rather than had it done to him as a boy.
这个故事其实相当悲惨。
So it's quite a sad story, this, actually.
这些故事在某种程度上都很悲惨，但这个尤其令人不安，因为很明显他疯了。
They're all sad stories in their way, but this is a a particularly disturbing story, I think, because he's clearly mad.
他于1832年出生在伦敦。
He's born in London in 1832.
他搬到了纽约。
He moves to New York.
我的意思是，他简直疯得像顶帽子，因为他本来就是个帽匠。
I mean, he's as mad as a hatter because he is a hatter.
这个说法源于帽匠们使用一种叫硝酸汞的物质，而硝酸汞会使人中毒，导致精神失常。
I mean, that expression comes from the fact that hatters worked with a substance called mercury nitrate, and mercury nitrate would basically poison you, and it could make you mentally ill.
这似乎就是发生在波士顿·科贝特身上的事。
And this seems to be what happened to Boston Corbett.
所以他搬到了波士顿，这就是他得到‘波士顿’这个绰号的原因。
So he moves to Boston, which is why he gets the nickname Boston.
他的妻子在分娩时去世，这显然在某种程度上让他彻底崩溃，他开始成为街头传教士，实际上，我们如今会认为他是个宗教狂热分子。
His wife has died in childbirth, and that clearly has sort of pushed him over the edge in some way because he becomes a street preacher, and basically, what we would now think of as he's a kind of religious maniac, really.
他是个典型的原教旨主义者。
He's a sort of fundamentalist.
他相信上帝在对他说话。
He he's he believes God is talking to him.
他相信这个世界充满罪恶，诸如此类。
He believes the world is sinful and all this stuff.
1858年，他在波士顿街头散步时，被两名妓女拦住骚扰。
In 1858, he's walking down the street in Boston where he's accosted by two prostitutes.
我们并不清楚具体发生了什么，但我们知道这次遭遇让他感到极度不安。
And we don't know exactly what happened, but we know that he found the encounter very disturbing in some way.
大概，他被激发了，或者受到了诱惑，或者类似的情况。
Presumably, he was aroused or he was tempted or or something.
于是他回去，读了一会儿圣经，读到马太福音里的一段，大概是说：如果你的眼睛使你跌倒，就把它挖出来。
So he goes back, and he he reads his bible for a bit, and he reads the bit in, I think, Matthew where it's like, if your eye offends you, pluck it out.
如果你的手，你知道的，就砍掉它。
If your hand, know, cut it off.
他心想，
And he thinks,
显然该做的事就是阉割自己，于是他用一把剪刀这么做了。
well, obviously, the thing to do is castrate myself, and he does with a pair of scissors.
吃晚饭的时候别听这个。
Don't listen to this while you're, while you're eating your dinner.
他基本上把自己剖开，把睾丸割了下来。
He basically cuts himself open and takes his testicles out.
然后，令人难以置信的是，他出去吃了顿饭。
Then unbelievably, he goes and he goes out for a meal.
他去了家餐厅之类的地方，然后参加了一个祷告会。
He goes out to, like, a restaurant or something, and then he goes to a prayer meeting.
直到那时，他才去医院，说：哦，对了，我伤得非常严重。
And only after that does he check into does he basically go to hospital and say, oh, by the way, I'm I'm hideously mutilated.
你能帮我处理一下吗？
Can you please sort me out?
之后，他加入了联邦军队。
So after that, he joins the Union army.
极其不服从命令。
Incredibly insubordinate.
他总是惹麻烦，主要是因为他的宗教狂热。
He's always in trouble because of his religious mania, basically.
所以当别人给他下达命令时，他常常违抗，因为他声称上帝给了他不同的指示。
So when people give him orders, he often disobeys them because he says God's given him a different order.
他总说不想服从上级，因为那些人满嘴脏话或者喝酒什么的。
He's always saying he doesn't want to obey his officers because they're swearing or drinking or something.
他是被派去抓捕约翰·威尔克斯·布斯的人之一，当时他们得到的命令是活捉他。
And he is the guy he's among the people who are sent to capture John Wilkes Booth, and they're told, bring him back alive.
别开枪。
Don't shoot him.
但他还是开枪了。
He shoots him.
因此他为此惹上了麻烦，但他后来却利用这件事为自己谋利。
So he he gets in trouble for that, but he then sort of trades on that.
他四处巡回演讲，就像我们之前在《西部狂野》播客里讨论过的，那个时期美国的媒体，他成了名人。
He goes around you know, we were talking in our Wild West podcast about the about the media in America in this period, and he's a celebrity.
他以‘击毙约翰·威尔克斯·布斯的人’身份巡回演讲，但这一切最终以悲剧收场。
He goes and gives talks as the man who shot John Woodford Booth, but that all sort of ends in tears.
他又重新当起了帽子匠。
He becomes a hatter again.
他后来成了传教士。
He becomes a preacher.
他基本上变成了一名疯狂的流浪汉。
He basically becomes a mad a sort of itinerant madman.
有一段时间，他担任堪萨斯州众议院的门卫，但因为疯狂地自言自语并挥舞枪支而丢了这份工作。
At one point, he's the porter of the Kansas House of Representatives, a job he loses because he's sort of madly muttering to himself and waving a gun around.
即使在那个年代相对无法无天的堪萨斯，人们也觉得这太过分了，这种门卫行为完全不合适。
And even in Kansas, which is kind of lawless in those days, people think this is a bit much, and this is not ideal kind of porter behavior.
我们其实并不清楚。
And we don't really know.
人们普遍认为他很可能在明尼苏达州的一场森林大火中丧生，像个疯子一样，这是一个非常悲伤而诡异的故事。
People think he probably died in a forest fire in Minnesota as a sort of loony it's a very, very sad and strange story.
但这就是另一个需要阉割的原因，对吧？
But he So that's another reason for cast for castration, isn't it?
是宗教狂热。
Is religious mania.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为这两个地区就是了。
I think those are the two regions.
汤姆，我还有一堆宗教狂热分子要讲。
I I've got more religious maniacs to come, Tom.
我有你想要的所有宗教狂热分子。
I've got more I've got I've got all the religious maniacs you might want.
所以，基巴莱的祭司们，那位母神的祭司，
So so there were there were the priests of Kibalei, the mother goddess
没错。
Right.
他们认为是母神召唤他们自宫。
Thought that they were called by the mother goddess to castrate themselves.
因此，这成了他们的一大特色：他们会自宫，然后在街上游荡，高举着自己的证物。
And so this was very much their gimmick, was that they would castrate themselves and then roam the streets waving their their testimony in in the air.
天哪。
Gosh.
所以那正是那种乐趣的一部分。
So that that was very much that was all part of the fun.
是的。
Yeah.
但我还有一位反复自阉的人，因为他觉得基督希望他这么做，他就是伟大的教父奥利金。
But I I've also got someone who repeatedly castrated himself because he he felt that Christ wanted it, and that is the great church father Origen.
啊，是的。
Ah, yes.
对。
Yeah.
我认为最杰出的教父出生在公元二世纪末的亚历山大，他比任何人都更融合了亚历山大城的希腊传统与犹太传统。
I think the the the most brilliant of the church fathers, born in in Alexandria in the the late second century AD, and he, more than anyone else, fuses these two great traditions that you have in Alexandria of the Greek and the Jewish.
他是一位杰出的哲学家，精通希伯来圣经，并将两者融合，从而奠定了基督教神学的基础。
So he's a brilliant philosopher, he's completely schooled in Hebrew scripture, and he kind of blends the two to create basically Christian theology.
因此，他和任何人一样，堪称基督教神学之父。
So essentially, he's he's the much as anyone does, he's the father of Christian theology.
所以他是个极其出色的人。
So he's a brilliant, brilliant man.
根据优西比乌的说法，这个故事是这样的，他是四世纪初巴勒斯坦的一位主教，也是君士坦丁的传记作者，以及第一部基督教教会史的伟大作者，对奥利金极为推崇。
And the story is, according to Eusebius, who is a Palestinian bishop in the early fourth century, a biographer of of Constantine, the great author of the the first history of the the Christian church, great admirer of Origen.
他说奥利金自阉了。
And he says that Origen castrated himself.
他这么做是因为他根据对圣经的理解而被要求这样做。
And he did this again because he was mandated by his understanding of scripture.
圣经中的这段经文出自《马太福音》，内容是这样的。
And the verse in scripture, it came from Matthew, and it was this line.
因为有生来就是阉人的，有被人阉的，也有为天国的缘故自阉的。
For there are eunuchs who have been saved from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven.
能领受的，就领受吧。
Let anyone accept this who can.
这就是《马太福音》19章12节。
So that's Matthew nineteen twelve.
据说，奥利金正是受到这段经文的影响才自阉的。
And supposedly, Origen was influenced by this to castrate himself.
但他真的这么做了吗？
Now did he really?
对此事存在非常严重的怀疑。
Very, very serious doubts about this.
奥利金据说曾向亚历山大的一位名叫德米特里乌斯的主教秘密透露，自己确实这么做了。
So Origen supposedly told a bishop in Alexandria, a guy called Demetrius, that he'd done this in strictest confidence.
而优西比乌正是从这里得知这一说法的。
And this is where Eusebius got it from.
但有两点理由让我们对这一说法持怀疑态度。
But there are two reasons to doubt this account.
第一，德米特里乌斯和奥利金之间爆发了严重的冲突。
The first is that Demetrius and and Origen had an enormous bust up.
德米特里乌斯认为奥利金态度傲慢、自以为是，有点儿不知天高地厚。
Demetrius felt that that that Origen was kind of insubordinate, was too clever for his own boots, was was kind of getting above himself.
所以你完全可以想象，这很可能是一种阴险的‘是的’。
So you could absolutely imagine that this is the kind of snide Yeah.
恶意的背刺
Malevolent backstabbing
所以德米特里乌斯不可能是在称赞他。
So so Demetrius wouldn't be saying it in praise.
他会说，这人 literally 没有胆量， basically 就是这样。
He would be saying, this man literally has no balls, basically.
据说他最初是同意的，但后来改变了主意。
Supposedly, he initially approved it and then just changed his mind.
对。
Right.
但另一个怀疑的理由是，奥利金确实写过一部关于《马太福音》的长篇注释，并且专门讨论了这一节经文。
But the other reason to doubt it is that Origen actually wrote a huge commentary on Matthew, and he wrote on this very verse.
他说：别这么做。
And he said, don't do it.
好吧。
Alright.
但他可能是有感而发。
But he could be speaking from experience.
他可能会说，我犯了一个可怕的错误。
He might say, I've made a terrible mistake.
别重复我的错误。
Don't don't repeat my mistake.
是的。
Yeah.
他之所以这么说，是因为他提到有些人自残，而这些自残的人，你知道的，会遭到谴责。
He could be because he says that people have castrated themselves and that these people have, you know, people who've castrated themselves, people get reproach.
你知道的，他们会招来非议。
You know, they they they draw reproach.
他们会给自己招来丑闻。
They draw scandal upon themselves.
所以他可能是在谈论自己。
So he might have been talking about himself.
就我个人而言，我对此表示怀疑。
Personally, I doubt it.
所以也许我不该把他包括进来，但他以可能是个太监而非常出名。
So perhaps I shouldn't have included him, but he's very famous as someone who might have been a eunuch.
是的。
Yeah.
他是我的选择。
He's my choice.
我想我们还有一点时间再讲一个。
We've got time for one more, I think.
所以我觉得，汤姆，这些太监真正有趣的地方在于，他们被笼罩在如此多的神秘之中，不是吗？
So I think what's really interesting about sort of these eunuchs, Tom, is that they're shrouded in so much mystery, aren't they?
正因如此，他们才如此迷人，因为人们会向他们投射自己的想象，看到自己想看到的东西。
And that's what makes them fascinating because people project onto them, and they see what they want to see.
我的下一个例子很好地说明了这一点，他叫萨姆森·罗利。
And my next example is a great example of that because he's a man called Samson Rowley.
一些在推特上的听众问：你会谈到萨姆森·罗利吗？
And a few listeners on Twitter said, are you going to talk about Samson Rowley?
但问题在于，我们对他知之甚少。
But of course, the problem with him is we don't really know very much.
我们所知道的是，他是十六世纪诺福克一位商人的儿子。
So what we know about him is he's a Norfolk merchant's son in the sixteenth century.
他很可能来自大雅茅斯。
He's probably from Great Yarmouth.
他的父亲来自布里斯托尔，因此他们显然涉足了商业领域。
His father came from Bristol, so they're clearly involved in the kind of mercantile world.
1577年，萨姆森·罗利登上了名为‘知更鸟号’的船，这艘船似乎被奥斯曼帝国俘获了。
And in 1577, Samson Rowley is on the ship called the Swallow, which is captured by, seems to be captured by the Ottomans.
我推测船上很多人被杀，但他幸免于难。
And I assume a lot of the people on the ship were killed, but he wasn't.
他被阉割并成为宦官，改信伊斯兰教，取名哈桑阿加，最终抵达阿尔及尔——这基本上是奥斯曼帝国的边远属地。
He's castrated and turned into a eunuch, And he converts to Islam, he takes the name Hassan Aga, and he pitches up in Algiers, which is the sort of outlying possession basically of the Ottoman Empire.
他成为了阿尔及尔的财政大臣。
And he becomes the sort of treasurer of Algiers.
因此，他通过改宗和成为宦官而步步高升。
So, he basically rises through conversion and through becoming a eunuch.
这种情况并不罕见。
This is not uncommon.
当时，阿尔及尔的首席刽子手是一位来自埃克塞特的屠夫，名叫亚伯拉罕。
So the chief executioner of Algiers was a butcher from Exeter at the same time, a man called Absalom.
事实上，管理阿尔及尔的人——乌鲁奇·阿里（意大利语称奥基亚利）——曾是意大利南部的前划桨奴隶。
And in fact, the man who was running Algiers, who was Uluc al Ali, or Occhiali in Italian, was a former galley slave from Southern Italy.
这说明了奥斯曼帝国的运作方式：你可能被俘虏并囚禁，但依然有机会步步高升。
So that shows you something about how the Ottoman Empire worked, that basically you could be captured and imprisoned and then work your way up.
因此，显然，拥有外来经验的人备受重视。
So clearly, there's a premium on people with experience from elsewhere.
你会觉得罗利之所以成为财政官，是因为他是个商人，因为他懂得如何管理账目。
And and you would think that Rowley the reason Rowley becomes the treasurer is because he's a merchant, because he knows his way around a ledger.
我的意思是，他虽然失去了生殖器，但仍然知道如何平衡预算。
Mean, he's he's lost his his genitals, but he knows still knows how to sort of balance a a budget.
于是他成为了财政官。
So he becomes the treasurer.
有一幅他的画像，画中他戴着白色头巾，皮肤非常苍白，脸颊略带红润。
There is a picture of him that shows him with a white turban, very pale skin, and kind of rosy cheeks.
不过话说回来，由于他是在成年后才被阉割的，这不太可能对他的外貌产生巨大影响，所以这很可能又是某种投射。
Although having said that, because he's castrated at a late stage, it's unlikely that it would have had a massive impact on his appearance, so this is probably again a bit more projection.
但有一份资料总是被人提及，那就是伊丽莎白一世的大使写给他的一封信，请求他利用影响力释放一些奴隶。
But there's one source that people always pick up on, which is basically a letter from Elizabeth I's ambassador to him to say, can you use your influence to release some slaves?
因此，他常被当作伊丽莎白与奥斯曼帝国之间关系的一个窗口，毕竟他们双方都敌视天主教势力。
So he's often used as a kind of window into this relationship between Elizabeth and the Ottomans, because of course they both hate the Catholic powers.
在那个时期，伊丽莎白时代的英格兰正试图与地中海地区建立一些联系。
So this was a period when Elizabethan England was sort of trying to forge some links with the Mediterranean.
全球化的英格兰。
Global England.
没错。
Exactly.
全球化。
Global.
没错。
Exactly.
但这就是我们对萨姆森·罗利所知的全部了。
But that's really all we know of Samson Rowley.
因此，很多人觉得他是个引人入胜的人物，尤其是现在，因为历史学家们对各种奇特的多元文化联系，以及英格兰与伊斯兰世界之间的关联非常感兴趣。
So a lot of people find him a fascinating figure, particularly now because, of course, people are very historians are very interested now in of wacky multicultural links and in links between England and the Islamic world and so on.
所以，他如今作为历史人物的形象可能比以往任何时候都更加突出，但我们对他却知之甚少。
So he sort of looms much larger as a historical figure now, probably than he's ever done before, but we know so little about him.
还有一种说法，虽然我还没见过任何相关史料，但据说有人曾对他说：‘你为什么不回英格兰呢？’
And there is this sort of story, I haven't really seen any sources for it that at some point, people said to him, why don't you come back to England?
你为什么不回到大雅茅斯呢？
Why don't you come back to Great Yarmouth?
他说，你知道的，我过得很好。
And he said, you know, I'm fine.
我在阿尔及尔。
I'm in Algiers.
我是首席财政官。
I'm the I'm the chief treasurer.
我为什么要放弃在北非当一个非常重要的人物——这里有宜人的气候，能吃塔吉恩料理，或者他正在做的任何事——反而跑去大雅茅斯管一个仓库呢？
Why do I kinda wanna, you know, run a warehouse in in Great Yarmouth when I could be a very important person in North Africa with this nice climate and eating tagines or whatever he's whatever he's up to?
这个故事显然可以追溯到十世纪甚至更早，因为从欧洲被贩卖到伊斯兰世界的奴隶数量极其庞大。
That's part of the story that clearly goes all the way back to to the tenth century and before because the the scale of the slave trade of people from Europe going into the the Islamic world is is absolutely enormous.
也许我们可以再谈一谈这一点。
Again, perhaps something that we could we could do a few
几年前。
years ago.
问他这个问题。
Question with him.
你是更希望，我的意思是，这很有趣。
Would you rather I mean, it's interesting.
我想知道，他是否宁愿保留自己的生殖器，留在诺福克？
I wonder if would he rather have kept his genitals and stayed in Norfolk?
或者，是的。
Or Yes.
这是个不可能的
It's it's it's an impossible
这显然是艾伦·帕特里奇该回答的问题。
It's a question for Alan Partridge, surely.
是的。
Yes.
嗯，我认为关于那部分
Well, I I think on that on that part of
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你的喷气式飞机，
your jet,
该休息了。
time for a break.
欢迎回到《历史其余部分》，今天我们探讨一个令人尴尬的话题——太监。
Welcome back to The Rest is History on the very squirm worthy subject of eunuchs.
我们已经介绍了前十大太监中的五位，而汤姆·霍兰德一如既往地藏了一个太监。
Now we've done five of our top 10 eunuchs, and Tom Holland, as always, has a eunuch up his sleeve.
汤姆，汤姆，你的太监是谁？
Tom Tom, who's your eunuch?
从不有意错过一个太监。
Never knowingly without a eunuch.
是的。
Yes.
所以，我认为我的这位太监是拜占庭历史上最非凡的人物之一。
So so mine mine is is, I think, one of the most remarkable figures in Byzantine history.
这是罗马帝国。
So this is the Roman Empire.
它位于东部，中心在君士坦丁堡。
It's it's in the East, centered in Constantinople.
罗马和意大利已经落入了蛮族之手。
Rome and Italy has fallen to the barbarians.
在君士坦丁堡，那里的皇帝对这种情况并不满意，而六世纪最伟大的罗马皇帝查士丁尼，正盯着收复意大利。
In in Constantinople, the emperors there are not very happy about that, and the greatest Roman emperor of the sixth century, Justinian, has his eyes on on the reconquest of Italy.
率领这支军队的是贝利撒留，他不是宦官，因此可能对皇帝构成潜在威胁。
And the guy who leads that is is Bellisarius, who isn't a eunuch, but therefore could potentially be a danger to the to to to the emperor.
所以，接替贝利撒留、负责将意大利重新纳入罗马帝国的人是一位宦官，名叫纳尔塞斯，亚美尼亚裔。
And so the guy who takes over from Belisarius as the the the guy who's in charge of of bringing Italy back into the Roman empire is a eunuch, a a guy of Armenian extraction called Narses.
我们并不清楚他究竟是如何或为何成为宦官的，但我们知道他本质上是君士坦丁堡财政部门中一位极具影响力的人物。
And we don't really know how or why he became a eunuch, but we know that he is essentially kind of again very influential figure in the in the kind of in the treasury of Constantinople.
让宦官来管理国库，这个想法我觉得挺有意思，但也许
This idea that essentially the treasury should be run by eunuchs, I think, is a kind of interesting one, but perhaps
我正在想最近财政大臣的几次变动。
I'm trying to think of recent chances of the Exchequer.
菲利普·哈蒙德、乔治·奥斯本、戈登·布朗。
Philip Hammond, George Osborne, Gordon Brown.
但纳尔塞斯在君士坦丁堡一场重大体育丑闻中扮演了角色，那是在五月，当竞技场中两支对立的车队——蓝党和绿党——的支持者爆发冲突时。
But Narcis Narcis plays a role in the the kind of the great sports scandal of of Constantinople when in May, when the two rival teams in the in in the hippodrome, the blues and the greens, rival factions supporting different chariot teams.
一场大规模暴乱爆发，最终几乎将君士坦丁堡中心区焚为废墟。
There's a spectacular riot, and the riot basically ends up burning down Central Constantinople.
他们之所以能做到这一点，是因为蓝党和绿党罕见地联合了起来。
And they can do this because, freakishly, the blues and the greens have teamed up.
通常情况下，他们是死敌。
Normally, they're inveterate enemies.
纳尔塞斯在争取蓝党重新站队方面发挥了作用，使得查士丁尼的士兵得以屠杀绿党。
And Narses plays a role in getting the Blues back on side so that then Justinian soldiers can slaughter the Greens.
这正是《权力的游戏》中瓦里斯那种典型角色的写照。
And that's the kind of classic role of the kind that you get in Game of Thrones with Varys.
那个在幕后操作、四处斡旋、行贿拉拢、暗中操控的人。
The guy operating behind, wheeling, dealing, offering bribes, pulling strings.
瓦里斯在电视剧中确实被描绘成一个身材高大的男人。
Varys is is certainly has played in the in the in the TV drama is a large a large man.
纳尔西斯是个瘦弱的人，非常纤细单薄。
Narcissus was a thin man, very thin and slight.
但事实证明，他后来成了一位杰出的将领。
But it turns out he comes becomes a brilliant general.
他在贝利撒留被召回后，以一种不可思议的高龄前往意大利。
And he goes to Italy after Bellisarius has been called back at at at a kind of incredible age.
我的意思是，他第一次去的时候已经六十多岁了，表现极为出色，被召回后，七十多岁又再次出征。
I mean, he's he first goes there when he's in his sixties, does incredibly well, gets recalled, then goes out in his seventies.
他前往那里是因为其他所有将领都未能击败那位拒不投降的哥特国王。
And he goes there because all the other generals have failed against a Gothic king who's refusing to accept defeat.
纳尔西斯最终击败了他。
Narcissus defeats him.
他随后击败了一群轻视他作为太监的法兰克人。
He then defeats a bunch of Franks who who very contemptuous of him as a as as a eunuch.
接着，他举行了罗马最后一次凯旋仪式。
And he then he he celebrates Rome's last triumph.
他带着俘虏、黄金和战利品穿过罗马的街道，这是最后一次
So he takes his prisoners and his gold and his loot through the streets of Rome, and this is the very last
哇。
Wow.
最后一个这样做的
Guy to
人。
do it.
多么
What a
让罗马告别的壮丽方式啊。
way for Rome to to to bow out.
我知道。
I know.
而且，我的意思是，想想在尼禄的时代，有人说最后一个举行凯旋仪式的罗马人会是一个宦官。
And and, I mean, imagine in the age of Nero saying that the last Roman who will celebrate a triumph will be a eunuch.
没人会相信这一点。
No one would have believed it.
随后，他在十二年里非常有效地高效地组织了意大利。
And he then organizes Italy very, very effectively and efficiently for twelve years.
直到八十多岁，查士丁尼才去世。
Right the way into his late eighties, Justinian dies.
一位新皇帝登基，据说皇后非常鄙视他，送给他一个金纺锤，说：‘既然你是宦官，就不该去管理军队和国家这类事情。’
A new emperor comes, and it's said that the the empress is very contemptuous of him and sends him a golden spindle and says, because you're a eunuch, you shouldn't be organizing, you know, armies and states and things.
你该回家去管管女人织布的事。
You should come home and organize the the the women weaving.
据说纳尔塞斯回答说：‘我会为你织出一幅你永远拆不掉的挂毯。’
And Narses, it is said says, well well, I can I I I will weave you such a tapestry as you will never unpick?
据说，他临终前给伦巴第人送去了消息，而伦巴第人是拜占庭帝国在意大利所面临的最可怕的敌人，他们在纳尔塞斯生命的最后几个月入侵了意大利。
And the the story is is that his last dying thing is to send a message to the Lombards who are the most terrifying enemy that the the the the Byzantine Empire faces in Italy who invade in the last months of of Nazi's life.
但我认为这个故事是假的。
But I story, I think, is untrue.
但我认为真实的情况是，伦巴第人一直在等待纳尔塞斯去世后才发动入侵，这某种程度上
But I think what is true is that the Lombards are waiting for Nazis to die before launching their invasion, which is a kind
是对他的极大敬意。
of incredible tribute to him.
他会亲自上战场吗？
Would he have would he have fought himself?
他会亲自参战吗？
He have gone into battle?
他会
Would he
会的。
Yes.
他是一位非常、非常杰出的将军，善于灵活搭配他的重装步兵、长矛兵和骑兵，效果极为出色。
He's he's a he's a very, very brilliant general, and he kinda mixes and matches his his heavy infantry and his pikemen and his cavalry to brilliant effect.
他是古代最伟大的将军之一。
He's one of the great, great generals of antiquity.
我的意思是，他和汉尼拔一样出类拔萃，是个了不起的人物。
I mean, he's kind of, you know, up there with with Hannibal, and and he's an amazing, amazing guy.
哇。
Wow.
当然，如果他不是宦官，他就会成为皇帝的威胁，根本不可能获得这个职位。
Of course, if he hadn't been a eunuch, he would have been a threat to the emperor, so he'd never have got that role.
他也根本不可能进入君士坦丁堡的宫廷。
And what he would and he would never have got into the court of Constantinople.
所以他永远不会引起皇帝的注意。
So he would never have come to the emperor's attention.
所以他是另一个赢家。
So he's another winner.
他又是另一个，你知道的
He's another, you know
他是个赢家。
He's a winner.
所以失去睾丸可能会带来巨大的
So losing your testicles can be a huge kind of
是的。
Yes.
职业优势。
Career advantage.
好吧，我下一个选择的人确实从失去睾丸中获益了。
Well, my next choice is a man who definitely benefited from losing his testicles.
所以几乎所有的人，嗯，我们谈过古代人物，也谈过一个宗教狂热者。
So almost all the people well, we've talked about ancient people, and we've talked about a religious maniac.
我的意思是，这个人失去睾丸主要是出于商业原因，他是一位阉人歌手，法里内利，可能是所有阉人歌手中最著名的。
I mean, this is somebody who loses his testicles basically for commercial reasons, and he's a castrato singer, Farinelli, probably the most famous of all castrato singers.
我们现在觉得这是非常奇怪的事，但在十八世纪，意大利每年大约有五千名男孩被阉割，通常是他们的父母所为，因为他们大多来自贫困家庭。
Now we think of this as a as a must think of this as a very weird thing, but in the eighteenth century, about five thousand boys a year were castrated in Italy, generally by their parents, for they often came from poor families.
由于这在技术上是非法的，父母总会找一个借口。
And because it was technically illegal, the parents would always come up with a pretext.
他们会说，哦，他被马踢中了腹股沟，或者他生来就没有睾丸，又或者他摔倒了出了事故，所以必须切除。
They'd say, oh, he's been kicked in the groin by a horse, or he was born without them, or he's fallen over and had some accident, that means they have to be removed.
他们这么做主要是因为希望孩子成为歌手，并赚大钱。
And they basically did this because they wanted them to be singers, and they wanted them to make a lot of money.
法里内利就是这种情况。
And that's what happens with Farinelli.
他的父亲是意大利南部安德烈亚大教堂的乐长。
So his father was the capellmeister at Andrea Cathedral in Southern Italy.
他出生于1705年。
He's born in seventeen o five.
他出身于一个还算富裕的家庭，但父亲在他年幼时去世，家里急需用钱，而他又是个出色的歌手。
And so he's from quite a well off family, but his father died when he was young and the family needed money, and he was a good singer.
所以当他12岁时，他们给他做了阉割。
So when he's 12, they have him castrated.
他其实不算太小。
So he's not he's not that young.
我的意思是，他当时12岁。
I mean, he's he's 12 years old.
这有点像
It's kind
去唱诗班学校，
like going to choir school,
对吧？
isn't it?
这太可怕了。
It's awful.
我的意思是，你知道，那时候没有麻醉。
I mean, he's you know, there's no anesthetic.
他们会把孩子
They would sort of I
认为孩子们经常会被给予鸦片，并用某种牛奶给他们洗澡。
think they'd give kids opium often, and they would bathe them in some sort of milk.
但你得想象，很可能有很多人在手术中死去，或遭受可怕的感染。
But you've to imagine quite a lot of people probably die in the operation or suffer hideous infections and things.
但无论如何，他并没有死。
But anyway, he doesn't die.
他是个非常出色的歌手，法里内利，他在意大利各地成名。
He's a very good singer, Farinelli, and he becomes famous across Italy.
他被称为‘小男孩’。
He's known as Il Ragazzo, the boy.
他在帕尔马、米兰等地演唱。
He sings in Parma and Milan and places like that.
他前往维也纳。
He goes off to Vienna.
然后在1734年，他来到了伦敦，并且大受欢迎。
And then in 1734, he ends up in London, and he's a huge hit.
我的意思是，他是一位超级巨星。
I mean, he's a great star.
他赚了非常多的钱，每年收入5000英镑。
He makes so much money, so he makes £5,000 a year.
我做过计算。
And I did the calculation.
你可以在网上自己算一算。
You can do the calculations online.
有一个专门的网站叫‘Measuring Worth’。
There's a special sort of website called Measuring Worth.
按购买力计算，他每年的收入大约是一千万英镑。
And in terms of earning power, he's making about £10,000,000 a year.
所以他是一位极其、极其著名的巨星。
So he is a massive, massive star.
他去了凡尔赛，最后终于到了马德里，成为马德里著名的歌唱明星。
He goes to Versailles, then he ends up finally in Madrid, and he's basically the big singing star in Madrid.
当他厌倦了之后，便退隐到博洛尼亚。
And then he retires to Bologna when he's had enough.
他被拜访过，我的意思是，他是一位超级名人。
And he's visited I mean, he's such a celebrity.
莫扎特和卡萨诺瓦这样的人都来拜访他。
He's visited by Mozart and and Casanova and people like that.
人们专程前去朝圣，只为一睹他的风采。
They make pilgrimages to go and see him.
他收集了大量在旅途中获得的精美艺术藏品。
He's got this fantastic art collection that he's picked up on his travels.
他拥有委拉斯开兹和穆里略的作品。
So he's got Velazquez, Murillo.
我们了解他和父母的关系吗？
Do we do we know what his relationship with his parents was?
不。
No.
我不知道。
I don't know.
这是个非常好的问题。
That's a very good question.
所以我不知道他是否……我推测，人们不会轻易阉割自己的孩子，除非他们认为自己能从中获得实际利益。
So I don't know whether he he I would assume that people wouldn't castrate their children unless they thought they were gonna benefit personally from it.
所以他们大概会认为，如果孩子赚了大钱，就会寄钱给他们。
So they would probably think that their children would, you know, send money to them if they made a lot of money.
作为阉人歌手，你可以赚到巨额财富。
And you could make an enormous amount of money as a castrato singer.
而且令人惊讶的是，汤姆，你认为最后一位阉人歌手是什么时候退休的？
And the extraordinary thing, Tom, is when did you think the last castrato singer retired?
二十世纪？
Twentieth century?
是的
Yeah.
1913年
1913.
所以教廷实际上并没有禁止它。
So it wasn't actually banned by the papacy.
我 somewhere 写下来了。
I've got it written down somewhere.
1903年。
Nineteen o three.
1903年。
Nineteen o three.
直到那时才被禁止，你知道的，它在整个晚上还在继续。
It wasn't banned until the so, you know, it's still going on throughout the night.
虽然不那么流行了，但我认为YouTube上有一段阉伶歌手的录音。
It's not as fashionable, but there I think there was one recording of a castrato singer on YouTube.
换句话说，最后一批阉人歌手演唱的时候，录音技术已经存在了，他们拥有非凡的音域和演唱能力。
So in other words, the last castrati were singing at a time when there was recording technology, and they had this incredible vocal range and stuff.
我的意思是，这种能力很大程度上已经失传了。
I mean, that's kind of largely been lost, suppose.
但这确实是个有趣的现象，因为它和我们之前讨论的大多数人非常不同。
But that this that's an interesting thing because it's very different from most of the people we're talking about.
我的意思是，这是一个极其冷酷的经济决策。
I mean, this is a a very cold blooded economic decision.
是的。
Yeah.
所以
And so
我只是好奇，他是否对父母心存感激，还是感到怨恨，或者
I just wonder whether whether, you know, whether he felt grateful to his parents or resentful or
有趣的是这一点。
Well, here's the interesting thing.
你不能有孩子，但仍然可以做爱。
You can't have kids, but you can still make love.
阉伶正是因为这一点而备受推崇，因为他们据说可以连续演唱数小时。
And and Castrati were prized for that reason because they could they could supposedly perform for hours.
你知道的？
You know?
是的。
Yes.
而且不会让你怀孕。
And not get you pregnant.
所以这是一个有趣的问题。
So it's it is an interesting question.
我的意思是，我们中很少有人会为自己的孩子做这样的选择，或者希望别人为自己做这样的选择。
I mean, few of us would make that choice for our own children or or would wish to have it made for us.
但他真的这么做了吗？
But did he?
我的意思是，他因此变得极其富有。
I mean, he was so rich as a result of this.
说到性行为和阉割，这正好引出我的下一个选择——伟大的彼得·阿贝拉尔。
So on the subject of having sex and castration, perfect lead in to my next my next choice, which is the great Peter Abelard.
啊，是的。
Ah, yes.
他可能是中世纪欧洲最具魅力的人物之一。
Probably one of the most charismatic figures of medieval Europe.
他是杰出的神学家、杰出的修辞学家，被描述为一个拥有不可抗拒的智慧、无与伦比的记忆力和超凡能力的人。
Brilliant theologian, brilliant rhetorician, described as a a man possessed of inestible cleverness, unsurpassed memory, superhuman capacity.
他自称是世界上唯一的哲学家。
He he described himself as the only philosopher in the world.
他是巴黎学派的明星。
He was the star of the Paris schools.
人们，尤其是女孩们，都为他神魂颠倒。
People girls swooned over him.
他极具魅力。
He was terribly charismatic.
男人们纷纷前来听他的讲座。
Men flocked to hear his lectures.
绝对是明星人物。
So an absolute star.
他受雇于巴黎圣母院的一位教士富尔贝尔，担任富尔贝尔侄女的家教，这位侄女是一位同样聪慧的年轻女子，名叫爱洛伊斯。
And he was employed by one of the canons at Notre Dame, a guy called Fulbert, to serve as tutor to Fulbair's niece, who was an equally brilliant woman called, well, young girl called, Eloise.
当然，阿贝拉尔曾发过守贞的誓言。
And Avillard, of course, had taken a vow of chastity.
他会让这个誓言妨碍他追求那位极其美丽、极其聪明、极具魅力的爱洛伊斯吗？
Did he let that get in the way of getting off with the incredibly beautiful, incredibly smart, incredibly charismatic Heloise?
他没有。
He did not.
于是他们发生了婚外情。
And so they had an affair.
阿洛伊丝怀孕了。
Heloise fell pregnant.
阿贝拉尔送阿洛伊丝去他在布列塔尼的亲戚家生孩子，孩子是个男孩，取了个极富创意的名字——阿斯特罗拉姆。
Abelard sent Heloise off to his relatives in Brittany to have the baby, who was a boy, who was given the brilliant name of Astrolame.
这有点像给你的孩子取名叫‘iPhone’之类的。
It's kind of like calling your, I suppose, I don't know, calling your your baby iPhone or something.
我的意思是，这是个很棒的名字。
I mean, it's wonderful name.
阿洛伊丝回到巴黎找阿贝拉尔。
Heloise came back to to Abelard in Paris.
他们秘密结婚了。
There's a secret marriage.
但到了这个时候，富尔贝尔和亲戚们对阿贝拉尔的态度开始变得越来越敌对。
But by this point, Fulbair is and and and the the relatives generally are are starting to get a bit sopranos in their attitudes towards Abelard.
于是阿贝拉尔送阿洛伊丝去修道院以保护她。
So Abelard sends Heloise off to a nunnery to keep her safe.
他在自己的房间里遭到袭击，被按倒在地。
He gets attacked in his own room, gets pinned down.
他们拿出钳子，把他的生殖器剪掉了。
They get out the pliers, and off off come his off come his goon.
其余的就都是历史了。
The rest is history.
他因此被致残，深受羞辱和创伤，这位原本才华横溢的公共演说家退隐到圣丹尼修道院，觉得自己一无是处，不敢再公开露面。
So he's left maimed and and so humiliated by this, so traumatized that that essentially this kind of brilliantly gifted public speaker retreats to a monastery in Saint Denis and feels that he has nothing to offer, that he can't appear in public.
但他依然是阿贝拉尔，于是开始研究圣丹尼的起源传说，并驳斥了这些说法。
But he's still Abelard, and so he starts investigating the the traditions of of the origins of Saint Denis and disproves them.
这自然引起了不小的不满。
So this doesn't go down very well.
他还是老样子，爱惹麻烦。
So he's still up to his tricks.
基本上，他随后便离开了圣丹尼，尽管他曾发誓要留在那里。
And, basically, he then leaves Saint Denis despite having taken a vow that he'll stay there.
他重新踏上旅途，再次成为了一位备受瞩目的明星。
And he goes back onto the road, and, again, he he he essentially, he becomes the kind of, you know, the great star.
他与海洛伊斯保持距离，但两人一生中持续通信。
He he keeps apart from from Heloise, but they they write to each other over the course of of of their life.
阿贝拉尔最终被指控为异端。
Abelard ends up accused of of heresy.
他被教廷正式禁声，但他依然极具魅力，被勃艮第著名的克吕尼修道院院长收留。
He gets officially silenced by the papacy, but he remains such a a kind of charismatic figure that he gets picked up by the abbot of Cluny, which is the the great monastery in Burgundy.
克吕尼修道院院长照顾阿贝拉尔直至他去世。
And the abbot of Cluny looks after to Abelard until he dies.
他去世后，修道院院长将阿贝拉尔的遗体送往海洛伊斯处，并亲自护送灵柩前往。
And then when he dies, he sends Abelard to Eloise, and the abbot of Cluny accompanies the coffin there.
阿贝拉尔被安葬，数十年后海洛伊斯去世，也被安葬在阿贝拉尔身旁。
Abelard gets buried, and a couple of decades later when Eloise dies, she gets buried alongside Abelard.
据说，当人们打开墓穴将海洛伊斯的遗体安放在阿贝拉尔身旁时，阿贝拉尔的遗体竟抬起双臂，将海洛伊斯拥入怀中，他们……
And the story is that when they open the tomb to put Eloise's body beside Abelard's, Abelard's body, he he reaches up with his arms and and takes Heloise in his arms, and they
哦，这真感人。
Oh, it's moving.
这真感人。
It's moving.
是的。
Yeah.
这确实是一个极其悲惨的、最伟大的悲剧爱情故事之一。
It is it is I mean, it's an incredibly tragic one of the great tragic love stories.
但他和我们其他太监不同，他的身份并不源于他是太监这一事实。
But he's bit different from our other eunuchs because he he doesn't owe his identity to his being a eunuch.
所以他
So he's
不像纳粹或
not like Nazis or
他的身份被这一身份剥夺了。
His identity gets taken away by it.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
所以，我的意思是，这确实是一种残害，不仅摧残了他的身体，也毁掉了他整个职业生涯。
So he I mean, it genuinely is a mutilation, not just of his body, but of his entire career.
是的。
Yes.
他觉得自己被这种经历残害、羞辱了。
He he feels himself to be mutilated, humiliated by it.
从那时起，这就像一道阴影笼罩着他的名声。
And it's a kind of shadow over over his fame from that point on.
但当然，这也为他的故事增添了悲剧性的力量。
But, of course, it it it lends this tragic power to his story.
你觉得，如果他没有经历这种可怕的……我们还会如此铭记他吗？
Do you think we'd remember him so much if he hadn't had this sort of dreadful
磨难？
ordeal?
我认为即使没有这个，他仍会被中世纪基督教思想的研究者们铭记，因为他太重要了。
I think he'd still be remembered by students of of medieval Christian thought because he's that significant.
他就是这么重要。
He's that important.
但显然，中世纪有很多重要的基督教思想家，人们却并不记得他们。
But but, obviously, you know, there are all kinds of major Christian thinkers in the Middle Ages that people don't really remember.
所以，人们真的会记得阿尔萨姆吗？
So we do do people remember saying Alsalm?
我的意思是，中世纪神学的学生们当然记得，但他并不是家喻户晓的名字。
I mean, students of medieval theology do, but he's not a household name.
而阿贝拉尔和爱洛伊丝，你知道，人们甚至为他们写歌。
Whereas, Heloise and Abelard, I mean, you know, people write songs about them.
他们至今仍是小说、电影和戏剧的主题。
He's they're still the theme of novels and films and dramas.
所以，是的，我认为这是这一部分的关键所在。
And so, yes, I think it's it's it's a crucial part of that.
总之，
Anyway,
我的最终选择。
my final choice.
我的最终选择。
My final choice.
但我对我的最后一个选择感到非常不满。
But I've big with my last choice.
所以，有个人名叫康德拉季·伊万诺维奇·萨列瓦诺夫。
So it's a man called Kondraty Ivanovich Salevanov.
他不仅是个太监，还说服了成千上万，甚至数十万人也去做太监。
And he's not merely a eunuch, but he's a man who persuades tens, if not hundreds of thousands of other people to be eunuchs too.
他生活在18世纪末的俄罗斯。
He lives in the late eighteenth century in Russia.
俄罗斯，正如每个人都知道的，或者至少我们的许多听众都知道，是一个数百年来各种古怪教派和邪教层出不穷的地方。
Russia is, as everybody will know, or at least a lot of our listeners will know, it's a place where weird sects and cults proliferate for centuries.
当时有一个叫‘克利斯特’的教派，他们是一群狂热的鞭笞者。
And there was a sect called the Clists, and they were kind of ecstatic flagellants.
他们四处游荡，鞭打和抽打自己。
They went around beating and whipping themselves.
而苏利瓦诺夫是个农民，他基本上从克利斯特教派中分裂出来。
And Sulyvahnov, he's a peasant, and he basically leads a breakaway from the Clists.
你看，克利斯特教派的做法对他来说还不够极端。
See, the clists don't go far enough for him.
他声称自己既是救世主，也是前沙皇彼得三世。
He claims that he is both the messiah, and he's the former czar, Peter the third.
俄罗斯有着一种悠久的传统，即有人冒充假的德米特里或假的彼得之类的人物。
So Russia has this great tradition of people pretending to be false Dimitris or false this sort of Peter
彼得三世是被叶卡捷琳娜女皇谋杀的那位。
the third is the one murdered by Catherine Knight.
没错。
Exactly.
所以为那些见证过伟大之人欢呼吧。
So huzzah in the those who've seen the great.
所以坎达拉蒂·伊万诺维奇·苏利瓦诺夫声称自己是上帝之子、救世主，他需要大量追随者，并称他们为白鸽，他说我们必须摆脱原罪，而做到这一点的方法就是阉割自己，如果是女性，则要切除乳房。
So So Kandarati Ivanovich Sulyvahnov says he's the son of God, he's the redeemer, and he wants lots of followers and he calls them white doves, and he says, basically, we need to break with original sin, and the way to do that is to castrate yourself, or if you're a woman, to cut off your breasts.
所以他基本上认为，你的生殖器或性器官，是亚当和夏娃在伊甸园中偷食禁果的象征。
So he basically says your genitals or your sort of sexual organs, they're signs of the forbidden fruit that Adam and Eve took in the Garden Of Eden.
为了回归我们纯真的、堕落前的状态，我们必须割除它们，而他们确实这么做了。
And to get back to our sort of pure pre fall state, we need to cut them off, and they do.
所以有两种方式：一种叫‘小印’，我认为只是切除睾丸；而‘大印’则是全部割除，他们用刀子、剃刀来做，然后用烧红的铁块灼烧伤口以止血。
So there are two ways of doing it, there's one thing called the lesser seal, which I think you just cut your testicles off, and the greater seal is when you cut the lot off, and they do this with knives and with razors and stuff, and then they get a hot iron and they cauterize the wound.
如果你做了‘大印’且是男性，你就必须随身携带一根牛角，以便排尿。
If you've had the greater seal and you're a man, you need to carry a cow's horn through which you can urinate.
你可能会以为这不会流行起来，但你错了，因为成千上万人追随他，他在圣彼得堡成了重要人物。
Now you would think that this wouldn't really catch on, but you'd be wrong because thousands of people he becomes a big figure in St.
圣彼得堡，他在圣彼得堡吸引了大量追随者。
Petersburg, he gets lots of recruits in St.
圣彼得堡、莫斯科以及敖德萨等新兴城市都有大量信徒。
Petersburg, in Moscow, in places like Odessa, so kind of burgeoning growing cities.
陀思妥耶夫斯基曾提及此事。
Dostoevsky talks about it.
到二十世纪初，这类信徒——被称为斯科普西——可能已有约十万人。
By the turn of the twentieth century, there were probably about a 100,000 Skopsy, as they're called.
因此，这是一个庞大的教派。
So there's a big cult.
共产党镇压了这一教派，此前也有人试图镇压，因此一些斯科普西被迫流亡。
The communists suppressed it, and and before that, people tried to suppress it, and so some Scopsy were forced into exile.
在凡德赛克时期，流亡到罗马尼亚的斯科普西人数众多，以至于他们基本控制了布加勒斯特的出租车行业。
So at of the Fandersiek, there are so many Scopsy in exile in Romania that they basically control the Bucharest cab trade.
因此，如果你在布加勒斯特，甚至可能在布达佩斯搭出租车，司机很可能是斯科普西成员——一个自我阉割的男人。
So if you get in a cab in Bucharest or indeed perhaps in Budapest, then the chances are it will be driven by a member of the Scopsy, so a man who's castrated himself.
成千上万的人这样做，非常流行。
And people do this thousands in Incredibly popular.
是的。
Yeah.
成千上万的人在一种狂热中这样做，相信这是通往天堂的道路。
Thousands of people do this in a kind of frenzy, believing that this is the route to heaven.
这直到苏联时期才被彻底制止。
And it's only really stamped out during the Soviet Union.
我认为有说法称，直到20世纪40年代仍有斯科普西人存在，有些人甚至认为现在可能还有。
I think there's a claim that there are scotsy around, as certainly as late as the 1940s, and there are some people who think there may still be some now.
它们可能在某些角落里依然存在。
There may flourish in some sort of nooks and crannies.
我的意思是，你会
I mean, you get
像英国国教徒那样担心他们太过优柔寡断。
what you people in the Church of England worrying that they're a bit bit wishy washy.
按这些标准来说。
Well, by these standards.
我的意思是，也许这就是方式来
I mean, maybe this would be the way to
重新焕发活力。
To reinvigorate.
是的。
Yeah.
这是一种坚定的信仰，汤姆。
It's a it's a robust faith, Tom.
这一点毫无疑问。
There's no doubt about that.
这是一种要求很高的信仰，但想必它也有其回报。
It's it's demand it's a demanding faith, but presumably, it has its rewards.
我无法想象这些回报会是什么，不过嗯，
I can't imagine what they would be, but Well,
是的。
yeah.
我的意思是，想象一下，如果你后来意识到自己犯了一个可怕的错误。
I mean, and imagine if you then realize you've made a terrible mistake.
那将会
That would
已经无法回头了，是吧？
There's no going back, is there?
尤其是如果你已经到了吹牛角的阶段。
Especially if you got got to the cowhorn stage.
我的意思是，那可就糟透了。
I mean, that's pretty bad.
所以我的最后一个，我们要去中国。
So my my last one, we're going to China.
是的。
Yeah.
中国是世界宦官的重要中心之一，这一传统可以追溯到4000年前。
China is one of the the the great centers of of world eunuchs, which is back 4,000.
秦始皇，也就是第一位皇帝，当时整个官僚体系都是由宦官来运作的。
So and the the Qin emperor, first emperor, I mean, already, they've all the bureaucracy is run by by eunuchs.
因此，阉割既是作为一种惩罚，也是一种晋升的途径。
So it's done both as a punishment, but as a way of getting ahead.
是的。
Yeah.
这是一种捷径，
It's a shortcut,
可以说是。
as it were.
这就像一个精英培养计划。
It's like a graduate scheme.
这就像一个精英培养计划。
It's like a graduate scheme.
是的。
Yes.
我特别提到的这个人，是我们之前和迈克尔·伍德在中国专题片中讨论过的，他就是郑和，生活在1370年至1435年间。
And my my particular one is one we've somebody we've talked about, I think, with Michael Wood in the the thing we did on China, and it's Zheng Hei, who lived between 1370, 1435.
他是那位率领十五世纪初远洋探险航行的伟大海军统帅。
And he's the great admiral who leads the the voyages of discovery that are sent out in the the early fifteenth century.
他是一名穆斯林，不过是一种相当独特的穆斯林。
He is a Muslim, although a Muslim of kind of quite an eccentric kind.
所以当他出海时，他会崇拜海上的大女神。
So when he goes sailing, he he he he worships the great goddess of the sea.
明白了。
Okay.
这是一种非常不寻常的……
That's a very unusual kind of
他年轻时在云南被俘，当时云南是蒙古统治者在中国的最后一块据点，而明朝正在十九世纪末收复这片土地。他被俘后遭阉割，进入中国宫廷，迅速崛起，就像纳粹那样——实际上，他被任命为七次远洋航行的统帅，这些航行横跨印度洋，最远抵达非洲。
He he got captured in Yunnan, which was the last holdout of the of the Mongol rulers of China by the Ming who were kind of capturing it back at the end of the fourteenth century, gets captured, castrated, introduced into the Chinese imperial court, has a kind of meteoric rise rather in the way that Nazis did, And basically gets pointed the admiral of these seven voyages that get sent out across the Indian Ocean all the way to as far as Africa.
他带回了鸵鸟、斑马和长颈鹿。
So he brings back ostriches, he brings back zebras, he brings back a giraffe.
他还清除了海上的海盗，俘虏了那个时代最臭名昭著的海盗，把他带回中国，结果这个人如预期般被残酷处决。
He also cleans the seas of pirates, so he captures the most notorious pirate of the age, brings him back to China where the guy is predictably brutally killed.
锡兰（斯里兰卡）的国王试图反抗他。
The the king of of Ceylon, Sri Lanka, tries to oppose him.
愚蠢的决定。
Bad idea.
他被押回中国，不得不道歉。
He gets taken back, has to apologize.
这基本上就是那个伟大的‘如果’——如果中国继续这种向外探索的路线会怎样？
And, essentially, this is the kind of the great what if that what if China had continued this outward bound approach?
是的。
Yeah.
这正好发生在欧洲海上扩张之前。
It's just on the the just just before the the European expansion across the sea.
所以，他真是一个极其有趣的人物。
So really, really fascinating figure.
然而，他基本上在中国被遗忘了，因为这些远航被埋没了。
Still, he basically gets forgotten in China because these voyages get buried.
中国帝国政策突然叫停。
Chinese imperial policy slams the brakes.
这没必要。
It's not necessary.
政策开始倒退。
It goes into reverse.
所以这些远航被埋没了。
So they get buried.
但近年来，他已成为一个非常重要的人物。
But in recent times, he's he's become a very significant figure.
直到今天，他仍然在中国受到纪念。
He is still commemorated to this day in China.
所以7月11日是他于1405年首次出海的日期，直到今天，7月11日仍然是中国的航海日。
So the July 11 is the the the date that he first sailed in in fourteen o five, and July 11 to this day is Maritime Day in China.
那他晚年怎么样呢？我是说，他有没有平安返回，过上长久幸福的退休生活？
And what happened to him at the end when he got I mean, did he get back and leave a have a long, happy retirement?
他在一次航行中去世，并被埋葬在
He died on one of the voyages and got buried at
海上。
sea.
明白了。
Okay.
关于太监制度延续到现代的话题，你知道最后一位宫廷太监是什么时候去世的吗？
And on on the topic of eunuchs lasting into the present day, do you know when the last imperial eunuch died?
我猜大概是爱德华七世时期，第一次世界大战之前，可能在1910年左右。
I'd probably guess, again, Edwardian pre First World War, maybe 1910.
1996年。
1996.
不。
No.
哇。
Wow.
这是个很棒的事实。
That's a great fact.
所以那个人是……等等。
So that's somebody who but hold on.
他多大年纪？
How old was he?
大约120岁？
About 120?
我的意思是，他一定
I mean He must have
活得挺好的，他一定是那种吃得很健康的中国人。
been well, he must have one of those Chinese people who just eat very healthy.
他一定是个男孩，在皇宫里被阉割了。
He must have been a boy, castrated at the imperial court.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，总结一下，我想说，这些人可以大致分为两类。
So the question so the to sort of sum all this up, I mean, a lot of these people these people, I suppose, can be divided into two categories.
他们要么是宗教狂热者，要么是那些因为成为太监而得以晋升、扮演原本可能无法扮演的角色的人——比如他们可能是歌手，或者可能是官员。
They're either religious maniacs, or they are people who have you know, being a eunuch has allowed them to rise, to play a part they might not otherwise have been because they're not a either because they're a singer or because they're a bureaucrat.
哦，我认为还有第三类人，就是那些陷入荒诞爱情纠葛的人。
Oh, I think there's a third category, which is people embroiled in in grotesque love affairs.
对。
Yes.
我想是这样的。
I suppose so.
好。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
所以斯波里斯其实并不是阉人。
So Sporis Sporis is not a eunuch, really.
他也没有被当作阉人对待。
He's not treated as a eunuch.
他被当作新娘对待。
He's treated as a bride.
是的。
Yeah.
有意思。
Interesting.
所以这很奇怪。
So that's that's weird.
然后阿贝拉尔被阉割作为惩罚。
And then Abelard is is castrated as a punishment.
所以这可以说是一种，我认为，第三种类别。
So that's a kind of, I think, a third category perhaps.
但问题是，纵观数千年来的人类历史，所谓的文明史中，一直存在宦官。
But the question then is, you know, through thousands of years of human history, sort of civilized history as it were, there have been eunuchs.
我们不拥有宦官，这反而是不寻常的。
We are unusual in not having eunuchs.
你认为宦官会重新出现吗？
Do you think eunuchs will come back?
我不知道。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我认为，这个问题是无法回答的。
That, I think, is an impossible question to answer.
我认为不会，因为我无法想象任何一种情况，让国际社会认为阉割男性是可接受的。
I would have thought not because I can't imagine any circumstance in which international opinion would regard the harvesting of eunuchs as being in any way acceptable.
你看不到阉人交易吗？
You don't see the eunuch trade?
你知道，照这样下去，谁知道呢？
You know, the way things are going, who knows?
谁知道呢？
Who knows?
我我真的不敢相信。
I I I can't I can't believe it.
不。
No.
我的意思是，几乎每个社会现在都会认为这种行为是不可接受的。
I mean, because because pretty much every every society would regard it as being beyond the pale now.
这是一个很好的例子，说明曾经被视为理所当然的事情如今已不再被接受。
It's a really interesting example of something that was taken for granted no longer being accepted.
是的。
Yes.
不过我想，我们现在对性别等问题的态度确实更加开放了，不是吗？
Although I suppose we do we we do have much more fluid attitudes to gender and things though now, don't we?
我的意思是，人们会做性别重置手术等等。
I mean, people have, reassignment surgery and so on and so forth.
所以，手术本身，或者改变性别的想法，对我们来说已经不像对
So the idea of surgery per se, or of changing gender is not anathema to us as it was to
我们的前辈那样令人反感了。
our predecessors.
是的。
Yes.
但太监并不会变成女人。
But eunuchs don't become women.
嗯，斯波里斯倒是变成了女人。
Well, Sporis did.
他没有。
He no.
他不是因为那个是尼禄想要的。
He didn't because he that was what Nero wanted.
好的。
Okay.
他还悬赏给那些能做必要手术的医生，如果有人能做，但他们做不到。
And he offered prizes for people who you know, if if there were surgeons who could could do the necessary surgery And they couldn't.
想把他变成女人，但无法完成，也无法植入子宫，所以他仍然像以前一样，基本上是不育的。
To make him into a woman, but couldn't do it, and couldn't implant a womb, so prepare remains as prepare, he remains kind of infertile.
那尼禄那边到底怎么回事，汤姆？
And what's going on with Nero there, Tom?
我的意思是，所有这些话题中，这才是真正的重点，很多其他事情都能理解。
I mean, that's the real of all these subjects, I mean, a lot of these make sense.
你能明白有些人精神失常，或者有些人想要钱，但尼禄为什么要做这种事？
You can understand that somebody is deranged or that somebody wants money, but why does Nero want to do that?
好的。
Okay.
嗯，我觉得我不太会回答这个问题，因为大英博物馆即将举办一场关于尼禄的展览，我觉得我们可以考虑做一个关于尼禄的特别播客。
Well, I think I'm not gonna answer that because there's there's an exhibition on Nero coming up at the British Museum, and I think it might be a good idea to to see if we could do a a podcast on Nero Great.
具体来说。
Specifically.
好。
Great.
我不觉得‘特别’。
I don't think Great.
我们先把这个放一放。
Let's let's save that.
所以，我觉得我们已经说得够多了。
So let's I I and I think we've we've run on long enough as it is.
我只想提一下，这个节目将在周四播出，也就是明天。
Could I just put in a plea where this is going out on Thursday, the tomorrow.
所以，如果你在周四听到这个节目（也就是4月23日星期五，圣乔治日），我将徒步穿越伦敦，沿着一条体育能量线从一端走到另一端，全程40英里。
So if you're listening to this on Thursday when it's dropped, so Friday, April 23, Saint George's Day, I will be walking 40 miles across London from one end to the other along a sports ley line.
所以我会从埃平的一家板球俱乐部出发，前往洛德板球场，再到克雷文小屋，然后到特威克纳姆橄榄球体育场，最后到达切特西的一家板球俱乐部，我这么做是为了支持三家无家可归者慈善机构，试图战胜无家可归这个恶魔，多米尼克。
So I'll be going from a cricket club in Epping to Lords to Craven Cottage to Twickenham Rugby Stadium to a cricket club in Chertsey, and I'm doing that in aid of three homelessness charities to try and and slay the dragon of homelessness, Dominic.
你就是我们这个时代的大圣乔治。
You are the Saint George of
我们的时代。
our time.
我就是圣乔治。
I am Saint George.
如果你愿意赞助我，我会非常非常感激。
And if you felt like sponsoring me, that would be hugely, hugely appreciated.
你可以通过访问我的Twitter主页@Holland_Tom找到赞助链接。
You can find the link if you go to my Twitter page at Holland underscore Tom.
在置顶推文中，有一段宣传视频，展示我像洛奇一样为这次活动进行训练。
The pinned tweet there, there is a promotional video showing me as a kind of Rocky figure getting in training for this event.
那里还有一个链接，如果你愿意捐款，可以点击前往。
And there is a link that you could go and pay if you wanted to contribute to that.
那将会非常忙碌。
So that would be very much busy.
如果不行也没关系。
If not, no worries.
希望你们喜欢今天的节目。
I hope you enjoyed today's show.
我们下周会带来更多播客。
We will be back next week with more podcasts.
但在那之前，非常感谢你们的收听。
But until then, thanks very much for listening.
再见。
Bye bye.
再见。
Bye bye.
感谢收听《历史之外》。
Thanks for listening to The Rest is History.
如需获取附加剧集、提前收听、无广告收听以及加入我们的聊天社区，请前往 restishistorypod.com 注册。
For bonus episodes, early access, ad free listening, and access to our chat community, please sign up at restishistorypod.com.
网址是 restishistorypod.com。
That's restishistorypod.com.
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