46. 文化战争

英国人正被出卖。

The English people are being betrayed.

在危险的外来新思想影响下，一小撮都市知识分子正试图颠覆我们的国家历史，摧毁我们的传统文化。

Under the influence of dangerous new foreign ideas, a tiny minority of metropolitan intellectuals are trying to undermine our national history and destroy our traditional culture.

我们的身份从未如此岌岌可危。

Never before has our identity been to you get the gist.

所以，这就是1530年代的英格兰。

So this is England in the fifteen thirties.

这是1640年代的英格兰，17世纪的英格兰，19世纪的英格兰，1960年代的英格兰，如今再次进入2020年代。

It's England in the sixteen forties, England in the seventeen hundreds, the nineteen hundreds, the nineteen sixties, and now once again in the twenty twenties.

欢迎收听《历史的其余部分》，主持人是饱经沧桑的文化战士汤姆·霍兰德，以及我——更细致、更理性得多的多米尼克·桑德布鲁克。

Welcome to The Rest is History with battle scarred culture warrior Tom Holland, and me, the far more nuanced and reasonable Dominic Sandbroke.

多米尼克。

Dominic.

你好，汤姆。

Hello, Tom.

多米尼克，你在文化战争中真是伤痕累累啊。

Dominic, you are so battle scarred in the culture wars.

我的意思是，你为《每日邮报》写文章。

I mean, you write for the Daily Mail.

这才是文化战士的精髓。

That's the essence of a culture warrior.

好吧。

Okay.

你一下子就直奔主题了。

You're gonna go there straight away.

没问题。

Fair enough.

现在我知道我们各自的立场了。

Now I know where we I know where we stand.

我正在黑入

I'm hacking

在路边。

down the road.

我们要讲一讲文化战争的历史。

We're we are gonna get into the history of culture wars.

我的意思是，我们不一定现在就谈，也许在节目的后半段我们会讨论一些文化战争，但我觉得首先应该搞清楚文化战争到底是什么，因为这是一个非常热门的话题。

I mean, we're not well, maybe we'll fight some culture wars in the second half of the pod, but maybe the to start with, I think it's really this is such a hot topic, and I think we should really sort of get into what culture wars are.

它们是人为制造的吗？

Are they confected?

你知道，文化战争的历史根源在哪里？

You know, where do they come from historically?

我认为，汤姆，我们不妨从一个问题开始。

And we might as well start, I think, Tom, with a question.

我们有一个来自吉尔贝托·莫尔巴赫的问题，他问：文化战争的首次实例是什么？

So we've got a question from Gilberto Morbach, who says, what is the first instance of a culture war?

他说，那不是俾斯麦针对天主教会的‘文化斗争’（Kulturkampf）。

He says, it's not the Kulturkampf, which is Bismarck's war against the Catholic church itself.

我不这么认为。

I don't think it is.

我认为文化战争和历史一样悠久，它们可以追溯到古希腊人和波斯人之间的冲突，那不就是一场文化战争吗？

I think culture wars are as old as history itself, and I think they go back to, you know, what are the Greeks and the Persians but a culture war?

罗马共和国时期的争论，不也是一场文化战争吗？

What are the arguments within the Roman Republic but a culture war?

不过，汤姆，你可能不同意。

But maybe, Tom, you disagree.

我不同意，因为如果用‘文化战争’来指代两种不同文化之间的冲突，那每一场战争都是如此。

I do disagree because I think that if you use culture war to mean the war between two different cultures I mean, every that that's every war.

每一场战争都代表着不同的观点、不同的文化理解、不同的文化假设。

Every war is is bringing different perspectives, different cultural understandings, different cultural assumptions.

所以你干脆直接说‘战争’就好了。

So you might just as well say war.

我认为

I I think

但那并不是我真正想表达的意思。

But that's not that's not quite but the idea of that's not really what I mean.

我的意思是，关于我们应该成为怎样的人，这场争论是什么？

What I mean is the argument about what who should we be?

我们的价值观是什么？

What are our values?

我们的身份是什么？

What's our identity?

我的意思是，希腊人确实争论过这些问题，罗马人也争论过，比如，我们是不是变得太希腊化了？

I mean, Greeks did argue about those things, and Romans argued about them and said, you know, are we becoming too Greek?

我们是不是变得太波斯化了？

Are we becoming too Persian?

我们是不是背叛了祖先？

Are we betraying our ancestors?

我们是否配得上我们的历史？

Are we living up to our history?

所有这些争论，我们英国人或美国人现在正经历的，其实和历史一样悠久。

All those arguments, which we have as Britons right now or Americans, they are as old as history itself.

但你看，这就像说尤利乌斯·凯撒征服了法国。

But see, I I think that's like saying that Julius Caesar conquered France.

这在某种程度上是对的，但也遗漏了很多内容，而且容易造成时代错置。

It it it's kind of true, but it's also missing quite a lot, and I think it risks anachronism.

我认为文化派确实是从是的开始的。

I I do think that that the culture camp, you know, it it begins with yeah.

基本上，它确实始于俾斯麦和

Basically, it does begin with with Bismarck and the

我不明白。

Oh, I don't understand.

与天主教会作为概念、作为类别的冲突。

Conflict with with the with with the Catholic church as a concept, as a category.

也许你可以以某种方式将这一点回溯投射。

And perhaps you can then back project that in a certain way.

但我认为，俾斯麦所参与的这场文化战争，本质上是关于宗教权威在世俗化国家中的界限问题。

But I think that the, essentially, the the the culture war that Bismarck is engaged in is over the the limits of religious authority over a secularizing state.

所以我认为，这关乎世俗主义与自称为基督徒者之间的张力。

So I think it's about the tensions between the secular and the self professingly Christian.

但但但但令人惊讶的是。

But but but but astonishing surprise.

是的。

Yeah.

但正如你所知，世俗这个概念本身也是基督教的产物。

But but as you as you will know, of course, the the concept of the secular is itself a Christian one.

因此，我要说的是，文化战争本质上是一种升华了的神学。

So what I would say, culture war is basically it's sublimated theology.

所以它产生于一种特定的基督教背景，但在这个背景下，一方已不再承认自己是基督徒。

So it it it is generated out of out of a specifically Christian context, but it's a a context in which one side no longer recognizes itself as being Christian.

因此，这是一种后基督教的战争。

So it's a kind of post Christian war.

所以我认为，美国所有的文化战争本质上都是围绕基督教神学的问题展开的。

So that's I think So I think that that in all the culture wars in America, they are essentially all revolving around issues of Christian theology.

只是有一方没有意识到这一点，而另一方则意识到了。

It's just that one side doesn't recognize that, and one side does.

但让我们先回到汤姆的话题，我想在回到俾斯麦和基督教这些内容之前，再往前追溯一点。

But let's go back for Tom, I I wanna go back further before let's before we get back to Bismarck and Christianity and stuff.

你是不是在说，在罗马共和国后期——你曾对此进行过非常成功的论述——当人们争论说共和国的奠基理想，即他们所认为的清教徒式理想已经失落，他们抨击现代社会的奢侈、柔弱与堕落，像加图这样的人反对他们眼中那些非罗马化的新派人物？

Are you saying that when, in the sort of the later days of the Roman Republic, which you've written about so successfully, when people are arguing that the founding ideals, what they see as the puritanical ideals of the republic, have been lost, and they are arguing about what they see as the luxurious effeminacy and decadence of the modern age, and you know, people like Cato are arguing against what they see as the sort of the new people who are un Roman and all that stuff.

你不觉得这其中也有文化战争的成分吗？

You don't think there's a culture war element to that?

你真的不这么认为？

You really don't.

我认为这更多是关于政治风格的问题，因为这正是核心所在——但这是不是

I I think it's more about political style because that's the essence of But is that

但这不正是现在文化战争所关注的吗？

but that's what culture wars are about now?

我不确定是这样，因为我认为在我们对文化战争的理解中，核心是进步这个概念，除非它变得过于宽泛而变得模糊且毫无意义。

I'm not sure it is because I think that it it's it's about I I think that baked into our understanding of culture war, and it unless it's going to become something so kind of broad reaching that it just becomes nebulous and point pointless is the idea of progress.

关键在于你是否站在进步的一边。

It's the idea of whether you're on the side of progress or not.

这就需要一些人认为自己是进步的，而另一些人则认为进步实际上是一种损失，也就是某种形式的保守主义。

So it it requires people who feel them that that they're progressive and people who feel that that progress is actually a form of loss, so a kind of conservatism.

当然，罗马人中也有人明确地将自己定义为保守派。

There are, of course you know, there are people who define themselves absolutely as conservatives in in in in Rome.

但是

But

是的。

Yeah.

加图就是一个很好的例子。

Cato would be a great example.

但是但是

But but

凯撒并不是在维护某种理念，他只是在展现一种风格。

Caesar is not he he's upholding a kind of style.

这是一种表面的炫目。

It's a it's a kind of flash.

这是一种迎合大众品味的诉求。

It's a kind of an appeal to the tastes of the people.

但它并没有违背罗马的根本理念。

But it's not going against the very idea of Rome.

它并没有提出某些习俗和传统应该被抛弃、被取代的观点。

It's not kind of formulating the idea that there are customs and practices that are superseded that should be jettisoned.

我认为，如果你想找罗马历史上最接近文化战争的例子，那就是基督教关于社会应如何运作的理念，与传统罗马价值观之间的碰撞。

I think if you want so if you want the closest approximation to a culture war, I think, that you get in in Roman history is one where where Christian ideas about what a society should properly be is are coming up against traditional Roman ideals.

因为这确实是一场真正的冲突。

Because that genuinely is a kind of a clash.

我认为，那些反对罗马文化某些方面的基督徒，他们的做法或许可以被定义为进步的。

And I think that the Christians who are opposing certain aspects of Roman culture are doing it in a way that we could perhaps define as progressive.

他们有点说好吧。

They're kind of saying Okay.

我总是

I always

那个。

that.

可以改进。

Be improved.

事情可以变得更好。

Things can be better.

而你所维护的传统已经过时，应该被抛弃。

And the the the the traditions that you are are upholding are antiquated and should be jettisoned.

所以，嗯，我本来想问

So so the Well, I wanted to ask

关于基督教出现时的那件事。

you about that when Christianity comes in.

因为在那里，你肯定会有某种感受。

Because there, surely, you have you must have a sense.

我的意思是，现在很难把握这一点，因为我们的史料非常有限。

I mean, it's very hard to get hold of that now because our sources are so limited.

但你一定对罗马帝国君士坦丁大帝及其继任者时代的人们有所了解——我想更多是指他的继任者们，他们曾说：‘我从小被教导要相信X、Y和Z，但现在，是的。’

But you must have a sense of people in there in Rome in the days of Constantine the Great and his successors, well, I suppose more his successors, who were saying, you know, I was always brought up to believe x, y, and z, and and now Yeah.

我所相信的一切都被彻底颠覆了。

Everything that I believe has been turned on its head.

难道不令人痛心吗？这些尖声叫嚷、咄咄逼人的人——在这种情况下是基督徒——正在夺走我们的国家？

And isn't it awful that these shrieking, strident people, in this case, the Christians, are taking our country from us?

我的意思是，他们不会说‘我们的国家’，但你知道，是夺走我们的世界，把一切都翻了个底朝天。

I mean, wouldn't have said our country, but, you know, our world from us and turning everything on its head.

我曾经坚信二十年前人们所相信的一切，可突然间，有人告诉我那全都是错的。

I just believe what what people believe twenty years ago, and suddenly, I'm told that's all wrong.

我甚至不知道正确的说法该是什么。

I didn't even know what the right words are.

你知道，我们懂这些行话。

You know, we we know the lingo.

那么，他们说的不正是这个意思吗？

So aren't they saying exactly that then?

所以基督徒带给这个局面的，首先是这样一种观念：存在一种超越地方性的普遍身份。

So so what Christians are bringing in to the to the party is, first of all, the idea that there is a kind of universal identity that transcends the local.

因此，罗马传统并没有那么重要。

So Rome Roman traditions are not that important.

相对于基督徒所带来的好消息——这才是真正普世的——这些传统就显得不那么重要了。

They relative to the the good news of of of that Christians bring, which are which is which are properly universal.

另一个观念是，罗马文化的某些方面不仅无关紧要，而且根本就是邪恶的，因此必须以某种或许略显过时但我们可以称之为‘进步’的东西之名加以废除，因为基督徒认为，铲除邪恶能改善社会和每个人的生活。

And, also, the other the the other idea is that certain aspects of Roman culture are are not just kind of irrelevant, but literally demonic, and therefore have to be abolished in the name of of something that perhaps rather anachronistically we could call progress because Christians would see the removal of the demonic as improving life for society and everybody within it.

所以像角斗士这样的事情吗？

So is that things like gladiatorial?

是的。

Yeah.

但还有一种奴隶制。

But there's one slavery.

有一种特别的事件，非常著名，发生在四世纪末。

The the there's one there's one particular kind of incident which is which is famous, which takes place in the late fourth century.

元老院里有一个名为胜利祭坛的祭坛，它象征着罗马人对其往昔辉煌的认同。

There is an altar in the Senate house called the Altar Of Victory, which serves as a symbol for the Romans of their the the glories of their past.

因此，有一座胜利女神尼刻的雕像，可以追溯到与皮洛士战争时期，甚至早于汉尼拔的时代。

So there's a statue of victory, Nike, which dates back to the wars with Pyrrhus, so so before the time of Hannibal even.

而这个祭坛本身是由奥古斯都设立，以庆祝他战胜安东尼和克利奥帕特拉的胜利。

And the altar itself is has been put there by Augustus to celebrate his victories over over Antony and Cleopatra.

所以它绝对是，你知道的，就像纳尔逊纪念柱一样。

So it's absolutely you know, it's it's Nelson's column.

它代表着罗马人眼中所有体现其军事荣耀的事物。

It's it's everything that the Romans kind of see as embodying their martial glory.

那就是你的教会。

That's your church.

是的。

Yes.

那是在议会里。

That's in parliament.

当然。

Absolutely.

基督徒憎恨它，因为它要求人们焚烧香料、向这些基督徒视为恶魔的神灵献祭。

And the Christians hate it because it's it it it requires people to to offer to burn incense, to offer sacrifice to the these gods who the who Christians see as demonic.

因此他们不断呼吁将其移除。

So they're constantly agitating to have it removed.

公元357年，君士坦提乌斯二世确实将其移除了。

And three five seven, Constantius the second does remove it.

随后继位的是尤利安，基督徒称他为背教者，因为他想恢复异教信仰。

Then he's succeeded by Julian, who is notoriously named by the Christians as the apostate because he wants to reintroduce paganism.

于是他又把祭坛重新搬了回来。

So he he brings it back in.

然后在三月，它又被移除了。

Then it gets removed again in March.

而实施这一行动的皇帝格拉提安在政变中去世，他的同父异母兄弟瓦伦提尼安二世随后被请求恢复这一制度。

And the emperor who does that, a guy called Gratian, then dies in a coup, and his half brother, Valentinian the second, is then petitioned to to bring it back.

这一点之所以被详细记录下来，是因为我们拥有双方的记录。

And the reason that this is is is very well documented is that we have both sides.

我们有一位名叫叙马库斯的参议员，他是异教徒参议员，写信给皇帝说：

So we have a guy called Symmachus who is a senator, a pagan senator, who's writing to the emperor and saying, look.

你知道的，己所不欲，勿施于人。

You know, live and let live.

基督徒可以拥有他们的教堂。

Christians can have their churches.

为什么我们不能保留我们的祭坛？

Why can't we have our altar?

当然。

Sure.

这没问题。

That's fine.

然后我们有米兰主教圣安布罗斯的回应，他说我们不能对此进行任何妥协，因为这是恶魔的行为。

And then we have the the the response from Saint Ambrose, who's the bishop of Milan, saying we cannot negotiate with this because this is demonic.

必须把它清除掉。

It has to be got rid of.

我们完全不能妥协。

We have no no compromise at all.

我认为，这里确实可以看到我们社会文化战争雏形的轮廓。

And I think there you do see a kind of a proto example of the contours that the culture wars in our society will will take on.

对于那些自视为所谓进步派的人来说，某些事情是绝对不可谈判的。

The sense that that certain things for those who are identifying themselves with what we might call the progressive cause is nonnegotiable.

过去的残余不能仅仅被容忍。

And that detritus of the past cannot just be tolerated.

必须将其移除。

It has to be removed.

我认为那是汤姆，

I think that that's Tom,

我认为你已经 brilliantly 驳斥了你一开始的论点，对我来说，这完全令人信服。

I think you've brilliantly disproved your argument I at the beginning of the I mean, mean, that to me is utterly compelling.

我的意思是，这听起来完全真实可信。

I mean, that sounds completely recognizable.

阿姆布罗斯是清醒的，而另一个家伙是不清醒的，所以两者之间根本没有妥协，所以我想说的是，我

Ambrose is well is is woke, and the other fellow is unwoke, and never the so there's no compromise between So what I would what I

我承认，基督教与既存社会的关系中确实存在文化战争的元素。

would grant is that there is a there are certainly cultural war elements within Christianity's relationship to the preexisting society.

例如，基督教哲学家和神学家对异教文学的态度中也存在这种焦虑。

And it's there, for instance, also in the anxieties that Christian philosophers and theologians feel in their attitude towards pagan literature.

所以在十世纪，有一位克鲁尼修道院院长做了一个梦，梦见一个花瓶，里面盘绕着三条蛇。

So so in the in in the tenth century, there's an abbot of Clooney who has a dream in which he sees a vase, and it's full of coiling snakes, three coiling snakes.

他醒来后，一位天使出现，说：这些蛇就是维吉尔、贺拉斯和奥维德，你必须除掉它们。

And he wakes and and an angel appears and says, these snakes are Virgil and Horace and Ovid, so you must get rid of them.

与此同时，在拉文纳，有些人认为，我们实际上应该学习维吉尔而不是福音书，因为维吉尔的作品要好得多。

Meanwhile, simultaneously, in Ravenna, you have people who are who are who are saying that, actually, we should be studying Virgil rather than the gospels because they're much better.

所以，我想，这在某种程度上预示了我们今天所熟知的一些趋势。

So that that, I guess, is a kind of you know, there are kind of prefigurings there of of of trends that we recognize.

但我认为，本质上发生的是一个根本上是基督教的社会与一个不认同自身为基督教的社会之间的张力。

But I think that, basically, what what is happening there is that it's the tension between a fundamentally Christian society and a society that is that is not identifying itself as Christian.

我认为，基督徒们

And I think that Do the Christians

会删减内容吗？

cancel stuff?

他们想禁止文学作品吗？

Do they want to cancel literature,

其实并不真的如此。

Not for really.

有些人会，但那只是少数。

Some do, but but it's a kind of minority.

但对此总有一种微妙的矛盾心理。

But there's always a slight ambivalence around it.

我认为，比如说，在二十一世纪的美国大学里，学生在学习奥维德的作品前会收到预警提示，这种做法某种程度上反映了晚期古代基督徒对奥维德或维吉尔所持有的那种矛盾心态。

And I think that, you know, there are kind of I mean, I I would argue that the, say, you know, people giving giving before trigger warnings before studying Ovid or something in twenty first century American university, that there is a kind of echo there of the ambivalences that Christians felt, say, towards Ovid or Virgil in late antiquity.

我认为，本质上，这两种情况都源于深刻的基督教信念，即相信普遍性与进步性。

And I think that, essentially, it's but in both cases, it's bred of deeply Christian assumptions about both the universal and the progressive.

我认为，这些才是关键。

And I think that those are the keys.

在这一时期，汤姆，也就是晚期古代到早期中世纪，人们对图像产生了巨大的争议。

What you also get in this period, Tom well, sort of late antiquity, early medieval, is a huge amount of hullabaloo about images.

让我感到某种延续性的是，如今关于雕像、纪念牌以及该纪念谁的刻像，正涌动着大量讨论。

And and one thing that does strike me as a kind of continuity is that, obviously, there is a torrent of stuff at the moment about statues, and about plaques to people, and, you know, who you celebrate in the graven image.

这种争议在拜占庭时期的圣像破坏运动中也存在。

And that's there in Byzantium, in the arguments about iconoclasm.

而那时，你不也看到类似的情况吗？

And then there again, I think, don't you see the same kind of thing?

有些人会说，我从小就被教导要相信X、Y和Z。

People who say, well, I've been brought up to believe X, Y and Z.

我一直认为这些图像至关重要，是我们文化以及想象和宗教精神世界的核心，而现在这些家伙却跑来把它们涂白、清除掉，就像后来宗教改革时期所做的那样。

I've always believed that these images were an important part, they're central to our culture and our imaginative and religious spiritual world, and now these bastards are coming along and whitewashing them and getting rid of them, just as they obviously later do in the Reformation.

在我看来，这种冲动贯穿了过去两千年。

And that seems to me to be that's a fascinating impulse running through the last two thousand years.

关于图像、该树立谁、以及是否该树立图像的持续争斗。

Constant battles about images and who you put up and whether it's right to put up an image at

全部。

all.

但我在知道我们要讨论这个话题时，就一直在想，我觉得这有所不同，因为那些都是基督徒用基督教的术语在争论该怎么做。

But I was I was kinda thinking about this knowing that we were gonna be talking about this, and I I just kind of have this I I feel that that's different because those are Christians arguing in Christian terms about what should be done.

所以拜占庭时期关于圣像的争论，以及十六世纪关于图像的争论，双方都是基督徒。

So the arguments about about icons in Byzantium and about images in the sixteenth century are people who who both accept that they're Christians on both sides.

因此，这是关于神学的争论，双方都承认自己是在讨论神学问题。

So it's it's arguments about theology where both are recognizing that they're arguing about theology.

我认为但他们并不

I think But they don't

觉得对方是好基督徒，对吧？

think the other people are good Christians, though, do they?

不。

No.

他们不觉得。

They don't.

他们真的不认为对方是好基督徒。

They really don't think the other people are good Christians.

但我认为文化战争的定义是，双方本质上都在用神学术语辩论，但只有一方不承认这一点。

But I think I think the definition of a culture war is where both sides are essentially debating theological terms, but only one side one side doesn't recognize it.

好的。

Okay.

那你给我解释一下。

So explain that to me.

你觉得一方是多元主义，而另一方不是多元主义吗？

You think one so one side pluralist and the other not pluralist?

所以关于

So on the

在雕像问题上，基督教文化本身对雕像就存在极大的矛盾心理。

stat on the statue on the statues issue, there is there is absolutely of course, Christian culture introduces a huge ambivalence about statues.

树立雕像以纪念伟人的想法，是一种非常具有文化特性的做法。

And the idea of putting up statues to memorialize great figures is is a very culturally specific one.

这种做法是古希腊人，尤其是古罗马人所拥有的。

It's it's one that the Greeks have and and particularly the Romans have.

罗马人总是不断竖立他们伟大将军和杰出人物的雕像。

So the Romans are the Romans are always shoving up statues of their great generals and their great men.

而现代欧洲这种趋势，实际上反映了基督教对公共空间中何为可接受之物的理解正在逐渐松动。

And, essentially, the the the trend in modern Europe to do that reflects a kind of loosening of specifically Christian understandings about what is acceptable in the public space.

所以，真正开始有人这么说，是在十七世纪，然后延续到十八世纪，他们说：我们也拥有自己的伟人。

So you in the it's in the it's in the seventeenth century, really, and then in through into the eighteenth century that you start getting people saying, you know, we too have great men.

你知道，这种对罗马的认同感正在不断增强。

You know, this is this this increasing identification with with particularly Rome.

所以，你知道，十八世纪被称为奥古斯都时代。

So so, you know, the eighteenth century is known as the Augustan age.

正是在十八世纪，人们开始为伟大的将军和国王竖立雕像。

So it's in the eighteenth century that you start getting people putting up statues of of great men, of generals, and and Kings.

是的。

Yeah.

国王，还有慈善家，基督教的慈善家。

Kings, but also benefactors, Christian benefactors.

是的。

Yeah.

于是雕像纷纷竖立起来，这就是为什么我们公共空间中的大多数雕像都代表十八、十九世纪和二十世纪初的人物。

So so up they go, and that's why most of the statues in our public spaces are represent figures from the from the the eighteenth and the nineteenth and the early twentieth century.

是的。

Yeah.

帝国时代。

The age of empire.

但这是因为这是一个古典主义的时代。

But because this is a this is a classicizing age.

这是一个回望罗马时代的时代。

This is an age that is looking back to the Roman age.

我认为，今天围绕雕像的焦虑源于一种深刻的基督教观念。

Now I think that the the anxieties around statues today are bred of kind of deeply Christian ideas.

只是那些反对雕像的人，并不会意识到这其实是一种基督教观念。

It's just that the people who are campaigning against it, they wouldn't recognize that as being Christian.

但本质上，我们之所以不能竖立雕像，是因为它纪念了堕落与邪恶，比如奴隶贩子、帝国主义者等等。

But, essentially, the the sense that we can't have a statue up because it it it commemorates depravity and evil, So if it's a slave trader or an imperialist or whatever.

这背后假设了：通过奴隶制获利，或征服广袤领土并在此过程中杀害他人，都不应得到赞扬。

This is very this is drawing on the assumption that to make a profit from slaves or to conquer vast reaches of territory and kill people while doing so is not something that is deserving of praise.

而这些假设源于我们基督教历史的伟大传统。

And these are assumptions that are bred of the great heritage of our of of of Christian history.

但他们已经摆脱了特定基督教教义的束缚，如今这些观念只是弥漫在空气中，人们自然而然地呼吸着它们，并将其视为理所当然。

But they they they've escaped that they they've kind of escaped the moorings of specific Christian doctrine, and they now just kind of percolate in the air and people just kind of breathe them in and to and and take them for granted.

但在我看来，这就是我对文化战争的理解：它们是关于神学的争论，而参与者却并未意识到自己是在进行神学争论。

But that, I think, is for me, that's what I would see the culture wars as being, is that it's it's it's arguments about theology that do not recognize themselves as being arguments about theology.

那么，让我们回到宗教改革时期吧，因为我原以为我们会花很多时间讨论宗教改革。

So then when you go back to so let's go back to the the reformation, because I thought we'd spend a lot time talking about the reformation.

因为当乔治·弗洛伊德被杀、'黑人的命也是命'运动兴起时，发生了大量事件。

Because when when the the sort of the George Floyd was killed, Black Lives Matter kicked off, there was a, you know, ton of stuff.

那时我们显然正处于封锁状态。

We're obviously in lockdown at that point.

那是去年，也就是2020年。

That was last year in the sort of 2020.

因此，它成了唯一一个不是关于新冠疫情的主要新闻话题。

So it monopolized it was the one story that wasn't the coronavirus, basically.

就在那时，我正在写我的儿童读物——这其实是个不错的推广机会。

And at that very moment, I was writing my children's this is a good plug, actually.

我当时正在写一本关于亨利八世和他的六位妻子的儿童读物。

I was writing my children's book about Henry the eighth and his six wives.

所以我读了一些关于宗教改革的书，比如彼得·马歇尔的杰出著作《异端与改革者》，这可能是我读过的关于英国宗教改革最好的历史书籍之一。

And so I was reading books about the reformation, like Peter Marshall's great book, Heretics and Reformers, about a brilliant one of the best history books I think I've ever read about the English reformation.

我心想，这简直太相似了。

And I was thinking to myself how uncannily similar this is.

你知道，那些虔诚的天主教徒对新教徒的震惊和恐惧，这些新教徒带着外来思想——聪明、人脉广泛、富裕的商人，以及沿着贸易路线传来的欧洲观念。

You know, these accounts by sort of good Catholics of their their shock and their horror as Protestants with imported ideas, you know, clever, well connected, affluent merchants and stuff with European ideas that have traveled along the trade routes.

你知道，这些有文化的人说：不。

You know, these are literate people who are saying, no.

你们所相信的一切都是错的。

Everything you believed was wrong.

你们应该好好学习。

You know, you should you should educate yourself.

你们应该净化你们的教会。

You should purge your church.

你应该做所有这些。

You should do all this.

我觉得这里有着如此的连续性。

And I thought there is such continuity here.

很难说清楚新闻在哪里结束，而历史书又从哪里开始。

You know, it's hard to tell where the news ends and this history book begins.

我完全同意。

I completely agree.

并没有。

There is no.

确实存在，那里有着连续性。

There is absolutely, there is continuity there.

我完全同意。

I I completely agree.

对我来说，'文化战争'这个词，你知道，它是在俾斯麦时代的德国创造出来的。

It's just that for me, the the word culture war is it kind of you know, it it it's it's coined in Bismarck's Germany.

当这个词在美国的使用中不断发展时，我认为所有这些趋势、所有这些战争、所有这些斗争，都源自基督教的范式。

And then as it as it evolves with its use in America, I I think that, of course, all these all these trends, all these wars, all these battles are inherited from Christian paradigms.

我只是觉得，我们所说的‘文化战争’，指的是那些没有意识到自己是在讨论神学的神学争论，而在宗教改革时期，人们是清楚意识到的。

It's just that I think that what we mean by culture wars, it it it refers to arguments about theology that do not recognize themselves as being about theology, whereas in the reformation, they do.

所以我完全同意，阅读那些在成为新教徒的城镇和城市中发生的圣像破坏事件的记载——人们闯入大教堂，砸碎十字架，嘲弄圣母像，把圣徒雕像扔进河里。

So I completely agree that that reading the accounts of of the iconoclasm in, you know, towns and cities that are becoming Protestant, where people are going into cathedrals and smashing crucifixes and and kind of mocking statues of the Virgin and chucking statues of saints into into the river.

我的意思是，这确实令人震惊，但这些行为都是以明确的神学语言进行的。

I mean, it is kind of shocking, but it's done in overtly theological terms.

这些行为的正当理由都是基于圣经和神学的。

The justifications for them are are given in terms of scripture and theology.

但现在的情况并非如此。

That's not what happens now.

所以当人们争论跨性别权利、雕像问题或堕胎等问题时，这些争论常常——尤其是关于堕胎、同性恋权利之类的问题——被框架化为……

So when people argue about trans rights or about statues or abortion or whatever, the arguments are framed often I mean, often so so abortion or gay rights or something like that.

它通常被描绘成基督徒与进步派之间的对抗。

It's it's it's often cast as, you know, it's Christians against progressives.

所以现在基督徒成了保守派，而进步派则将这种信仰视为蒙昧的迷信而背弃之。

So it's the Christians who are the conservatives now, and it's the progressives who are turning their back on that as kind of benighted superstition.

但我认为，进步派所汲取的基督教历史与神学遗产，丝毫不亚于那些自认的基督徒。

But what I think is that the progressives are drawing just as much on that inheritance of Christian history and theology as the the the self confessing Christians.

只是他们没有意识到这一点。

It's just that they don't recognize it.

这就是我认为的文化

So that that's that's what I think a culture

你的这个观点，汤姆，是不会被认可的。

of will not approve of your argument there, Tom.

是的。

Yeah.

所以爱丽丝·罗伯茨这样的人物，若非在某种新教基督教的语境下，是完全无法想象的。

So Alice Alice Roberts is absolutely a, you know, a figure who would be unthinkable in any other context except a kind of Protestant Christian one.

但她本人并不接受这一点。

But she doesn't she she doesn't accept that.

但正是这一点让她

But and that's what makes her

我的意思是，我同意。

I I mean, I agree.

这让她成为一个文化战士，而不是一个参与基督教内部战争的基督教参与者。

That's what makes her a culture warrior rather than rather than a, you know, a a a Christian contestant in an intra Christian war.

而且还是一个如此有趣的喜剧人物。

And such an entertaining comic figure.

但无论如何，这件事还有另一个维度，我认为非常有趣，而我猜你一定会完全反对，那就是更明显的政治维度。

But anyway, so you there's one other dimension to this, which I think is really interesting that you, I imagine, will completely reject, and that is the sort of more overtly political dimension.

所以，在我看来，我会说，而你显然会不同意，英国政治一直以来都是一种文化战争。

So, to me, I would argue, and you clearly would disagree, that British politics has always been a kind of culture war.

我的意思是，比如罗伯特·图姆斯在他的书《英格兰人及其历史》中就提出了这个观点。

I mean, this is what, for example, Robert Toombs argues in his book, The English and Their History.

他认为，英格兰的政治尤其一直具有这种文化战争的维度，始终存在一个宗教鸿沟。

He argues that English politics specifically has always had this culture war dimension, that there's always been a religious gap.

旅游群体和保守派就像是投票箱里的英国国教，而中产阶级生活中自由左翼的倾向，始终由宗教非国教传统和异议传统所驱动。

The tourism and the conservatives are the kind of Church of England at the voting booth, and that the sort of liberal left wing tendency, particularly in middle class life, has always been driven by religious nonconformity, and by the tradition of dissent.

当我回溯政治诞生的时期——也就是我们所认知的政治的起源，即十七世纪末、十八世纪初——你会发现，那时的争论几乎都围绕着文化战争类议题展开。

And actually, when I look back at the period that politics was born, that what we would recognize as politics, so you're talking about late seventeenth, early eighteenth century, I mean, shot through with arguments about sort of culture war kind of issues.

举个例子，我知道你读过我几周前为《Unheard》撰写的那篇关于塞谢瓦里尔案的文章。

I mean, the example I know you've read this piece that I wrote a few weeks ago for Unheard about the Sechevaril case.

那里讲的是一位牧师。

So, there you've got a preacher.

在1710年的大选中，这成了最重大的议题：一位牧师谴责了辉格党人和非国教徒，而托利党人抓住这一点大做文章，将其放大为一场全国性的政治风波，就像现在人们常说的‘典型的托利党人捏造文化战争’之类的话。

That's the single biggest issue in the general election of seventeen ten, and it's a preacher who has condemned the Whigs and condemned dissenters, and the Tories pick it up and they run with it and they amplify it into a sort of major national political issue in a way that people now would say, oh, typical Tories confecting a culture war or all this sort of stuff.

但事实上，早在十七、十八世纪，人们就已经在这么做了。

I mean, that people are doing it right back then in the seventeenth, sort of eighteenth centuries.

所以对我来说，文化战争与党派议会政治在某种程度上一直相伴相生。

So to me, culture wars and sort of, you know, partisan parliamentary politics have always gone hand in hand to some extent.

我并不反对这个观点。

I I I don't disagree.

而且我确实读过，你知道的，我读了你的文章，觉得特别棒。

And and I've I've read, you know, you know, I read your essay and thought it was fantastic.

还有很多人没读过。

And There's people who haven't read it.

那篇文章并不是在播客上发布的。

It's not podcast right there.

它几周前刊登在《Unheard》上，对吧？

It was in Unheard a couple of weeks ago, wasn't it?

我的意思是，我觉得这篇文章特别棒，真的让我深入思考了这个问题。

I mean, I thought and I thought it was fantastic, and it kinda ridden really made me think about this.

我觉得，比如内战后护国公时期，各种相互竞争的宗教派别彼此争论，这种分歧、冲突、紧张和文化争论，

So and what I think about that is that I would say that say that the disagreements, the conflicts, the tensions, the cultural arguments, say, in the period of the protectorate after the civil war, where you have all these kind of rival religious denominations all debating with each other.

我不认为那是文化战争，因为我觉得那些争论仍然是以明确的基督教话语进行的。

I would not see that as being a culture war because I think that's still being conducted in in in overtly Christian terms.

但像威格里那样的东西，那种后来演变出来的东西。

But something like wiggory that that, like, evolved back.

进步。

Progress.

所以是威戈里，是的。

So wiggory Yeah.

这是一种世俗的进步观，而这正与托利派对英国国教的理念发生激烈冲突，后者认为这完全是不可接受的。

It's it's a kind of secular idea of progress, and that is absolutely coming up against the kind of Tory idea of the Church of England that it should be you know, that that this this is anathema.

所以，我完全同意，我认为这确实是现代文化战争的前身。

So I I I do completely agree that I think that that is kind of you know, that's the precursor to the modern culture war.

因为威戈里体现的是一种明显具有神学色彩的概念，它只能也确实源于17世纪国教与非国教派之间的争论。

Because with wiggory, you're getting the idea of of it's clearly a massively theological concept that could only have and it clearly does emerge from from the the the argument between established church and dissenters in the seventeenth century.

但它逐渐失去了这种根基。

But it loses slips that mooring.

所以，我认为这种18世纪的争论，我完全认可其合理性。

So I think that that kind of eighteenth century argument is I completely accept the validity of that.

那么，你认为这些现象背后是否存在某种性格上的倾向，我们所有人都是

And what what do you think about whether there's a sort of temperamental, as it were, impulse behind these things that we are we are all

有点儿，你知道的，

Little You know,

戈贝尔和沙利文认为自由主义者都有一点，我们生来就有一点自由主义，有一点保守主义。

Gobel and Sullivan had this gave liberals a little we were all born little liberals a little conservatives.

我的意思是，我们生来就是文化战争的参与者。

I mean, we're all born culture warriors.

你不会觉得某种程度上是这样吗？

Do not think to an extent?

即使你没有深入思考过这些问题，也不熟悉历史或神学，人们对于这些事情仍有一种本能的、强烈的反应。

We all have an instinctive, even if you haven't thought about the issues or you're not steeped in the history or the theology or whatever, people have a very instinctive, visceral reaction to these things.

他们是重视传统和保守、认同事物历来如此的人，还是希望站在进步的一边？

Are they somebody who values tradition and conservatism and how things have always been done, or do they want to see themselves on the side of progress?

他们是否害怕自己站在历史的错误一边，诸如此类的事情。

And are they horrified at the thought of being on the wrong side of history and all that stuff.

我的意思是，这些特质相当根深蒂固，不是吗？你觉得呢？

I mean, those things are quite they're they're they're quite innate, aren't they, don't you think?

是的。

Yes.

但我想，听到我说这个，你不会感到惊讶。

But I think that it won't surprise you to hear me say this.

我确实认为基督教彻底改变了辩论的框架，因为在古代，基本上每个人都是保守派。

I I do think that Christianity radically alters the terms of the debate because back in ancient times, basically, everyone was a conservative.

所以，即使他们想改变事物，当然，他们经常这么做。

So even if they wanted to change things, and often, of course, they did.

我的意思是，变化是一个持续的过程，但他们总是以自己是在回归传统做法来为这种改变辩护。

Mean, know, it's constant process of change, but they would always justify it by saying that they were going back to the way that things were always done.

比如雅典人，当雅典民主制建立起来时，这个极其激进的实验，他们却说，我们只是在回归忒修斯时代的做法。

So the Athenian you know, when the Athenian democracy gets set up, this incredibly radical experiment, they say, well, we're just going back to do what what Theseus set up.

还有奥古斯都，你知道，他把自己的专制统治建立在共和国的废墟之上，却说，我只是回归根本。

And and and and Augustus, he, you know, he he he plants his autocracy on the rubble of the republic, he says, well, I'm, you know, back to basics.

我是在恢复共和国。

I'm I'm restoring the republic.

我正在恢复事物原本的样子。

I'm restoring the way that things always were.

我认为，基督教带来的变化，以及如今在我们社会中真正显现的是，改变本身竟然成了一种美德。

And I think that that what changes with Christianity and what and and what is really manifest in our society now is the idea that actually change for its own sake becomes a good.

存在一种进步的轨迹，你要么站在这一进步轨迹的一边，要么不是。

That there is such a thing as an arc of progress and that you're either with that arc of progress or you're not.

所以我同意，你要么热衷于改变，享受它带来的刺激感，要么本能地回避它，只希望一切能保持原样。

So I agree that there is a kind of have a kind of you relish change and you enjoy the excitement that it represents, or you have a kind of instinctive shrinking from it and you just wish that things could stay as they were.

我同意这属于性格使然，但我认为，基督教带来的变化是，这种差异随后演变成了一种更深刻的理念分歧。

And I agree that's a temperamental thing, but I think that that what changes with with Christianity is that that then becomes much more kind of ideological divide.

我认为，我们现在正生活在这种分歧的余波之中。

And I think that that we live in the kind of aftermath of that now.

我也觉得我们可能已经聊得够久了，该休息一下了。

I also think that we've possibly talked about this long enough and that we need a break.

你

What do

你觉得呢？

you think?

我刚才也在想这一点。

I was just thinking that.

我正在想该怎么让我们休息一下。

I was thinking about how I was gonna get us into the break.

汤姆，我觉得你得武装起来，磨利你的武器，广告结束后，战斗将继续。

Tom, I think you need to tool up, sharpen your weapons, and the battle will resume after this after a word from our sponsors.

欢迎回到《历史其余部分》，欢迎回到文化战争，汤姆·荷兰和我此刻正在其中交锋。

Welcome back to The Rest is History, and welcome back to the culture wars, which Tom Holland and I are engaged in right now.

汤姆，美国。

Tom, America.

美国，我们已经做过一整期关于美国化的节目了，所以没必要再重复了。

America, we've had a whole podcast about Americanization, so we don't need to do that again.

但美国显然在文化战争中扮演着至关重要的角色。

But America clearly plays a huge part in the culture wars.

现在，我来陈述我的观点，然后你可以反驳它。

Now, I'll tell you my thesis, then you can reject it.

我认为，当定居者、清教徒等人前往美洲时，他们把文化战争也带了过去，如今你在美洲看到的所有争论，都源自17、18世纪英国、英格兰和苏格兰的争论，而如今美国又把这些争论反向输出给了我们。

I I think basically, when the settlers the Puritans and stuff went to America, they took the culture wars with them, and that all the arguments you see in America are descended from seventeenth, eighteenth century British, English and Scottish arguments, and that what's happened is that America has now re exported those back to us.

所以我们觉得这些是美国的现象，但实际上它们最终源于辉格党与托利党、旧事业、内战时期的那种争论。

So, we see them as American, but actually they are ultimately of Whig Tory, good old cause, Civil War era kinds of arguments.

而这些文化战争在美国如此激烈，是因为美国的宗教性远比英国更强。

And they've survived in America in such a sort of intense form because America is much more religious than The UK is.

因此，在我看来，美国文化战争的激烈程度，本质上是深受宗教驱动的。

So the intensity of their culture wars, it seems to me, is a very religiously inspired thing.

你认同这个观点吗？

Do you buy that?

完全认同。

Completely.

是的。

Yes.

我就知道你会这么说。

I knew you would.

我可以。

I could

当然。

of course.

完全同意。

Completely.

而且我觉得，我们在《美国化》播客里讨论过这一点。

And I think that, you know, we talked about that in the Americanization podcast.

我们之所以那么容易被美国文化战士的‘打喷嚏’感染，原因之一就是，本质上我们对它没有天然免疫力，因为它本来就是我们传出去的。

That's one of the reasons why we're so susceptible to catching colds when American culture warriors sneeze is that, basically, we we have no natural immunity to it because because it came from us.

所以我认为，但同样地，让美国的文化战争特别具有传染性的，正如你所说，是因为美国社会比英国长期以来都要更加虔诚地信仰基督教。

So I think but, again, I I think that that what has made culture wars in America particularly virulent is, as you say, that it it it they are it is a much more committedly Christian society than than Britain's been for a fair while.

我认为，六七十年代发生的是，这种宗教文化发生了极其深刻的变化，这种变化实际上类似于十六、十七世纪的情形。

And I think that what happens in the sixties and seventies is that that religious culture mutates in a very, very profound way, in a way that is kind of analogous to the fifteen twenties, really.