47. 七年战争

这是英国政府巨额支出的结果，也就是十八世纪历史学家常谈论的著名的财政军事国家——这些国家已经演变为现代国家，能够以低利率借款，因为贷款方对政府能偿还债务抱有一定程度的信心。

It's it's it's the it's the giant spending by the British government, the famous fiscal military states that the eighteenth century historians like talk about, where these states have come into being very modern states where you borrow at low interest rates because you've got a faintly reliable the the lenders are suitably confident that you're gonna get that money back.

有一个法律体系。

There's a legal system.

有一个政治机制，你可以在议会中寻求救济。

There's a political you can rate you can seek redress within parliament.

它远非一个完全现代、极其透明、完美的现代国家，但它正在朝着那个方向摸索前进。

It is far from being a very modern sort of completely, you know, brilliant sort of a very modern state in which things are perfectly transparent, but it is it is groping towards that place.

因此，尽管英国经济规模较小，却能借入巨额资金，而法国却做不到，因为他们的政权是专制的，要么干脆不还钱，要么把钱花在愚蠢的事情上，比如建造巨大的宫殿。

So Britain can borrow even though it's a smaller economy, it can borrow titanic amounts of money, which is unavailable to the French because they're mad, you know, also on regime despots who just choose not to pay it back or or spend it on stupid things like enormous palaces.

而英国人却可以对民众说：借给我们钱吧。

Whereas whereas the British can say to people, lend us money.

我们会用这些钱建造船只来保护贸易，而你们将从贸易中获益，我们则通过贸易产生的税收赚钱。

We're gonna spend it on ships that will protect trade, and you will then benefit from that trade, and we will make money on the tax that derives from that trade.

所以，这是一套行之有效的体系。

So there's a there's a system that works.

因此，皮特、纽卡斯尔和英国政府能够同时向各个战场派遣大量的舰船和士兵。

So so Pitt and Newcastle and the British government are able to send huge amounts of ships and men to all these theaters at once.

这正是这件事如此非凡的原因。

That's what's so extraordinary about this.

他们能够在欧洲继续战争的同时，向北美派遣历史上规模最大的远征军。

They're able to keep the go war going in Europe whilst also dispatching the biggest expeditionary force in in history, really, to North America.

到1758年，事情刚开始时有些磕磕绊绊。

And and that is that means that by 1758, it comes there's a bit of a stuttering start.

到1759年，一切终于顺利展开。

By 1759, it all it all comes into place.

一位名叫詹姆斯·库克的年轻英国军官，也是一个有趣的人物，他出身于一个文盲且极其边缘化的家庭。

A young a young British officer called James Cook, again, interesting character here, grows up in a kind of illiterate, very, very kind of very marginal family.

他投身于煤炭贸易，在纽卡斯尔向伦敦运送煤炭，这相当于十八世纪的能源沙特阿拉伯——即诺森伯兰的煤矿。

He goes to sea on the the coal trade, Newcastle supplying London with coal, this kind of giant industrial city in the South, accessing the Saudi Arabia of energy in the eighteenth century, which is the coal fields in Northumberland.

他在极其艰难的航行和领航条件下磨练了自己的技能。

It it he learns his trade there in brutally difficult navigational pilotage conditions.

他随后加入了海军。

He then joins the navy.

战争爆发后，他自愿参军，迅速晋升，从普通水兵起步，很快成为军官。

Volunteers joined the navy on the outbreak and is rapidly promoted, joins as an ordinary seaman, rapidly promoted, becomes an officer.

因此，皇家海军在这一时期是 meritocracy 的引擎。

So, again, the Royal Navy, an engine of meritocracy in this in this period.

虽不完美，却是其成功的关键。

Imperfect, but a key to its success.

詹姆斯·库克绘制了圣劳伦斯河的第一张海图。

James Cook creates the first chart of the Saint Lawrence River.

圣劳伦斯河是一条浩瀚而复杂的河流，深入加拿大腹地。

Saint Lawrence River, vast, complicated river running into the heart of Canada.

法国人从未重视，也没有认真防守它。

The French never bought they didn't really bother defending it.

这根本不可能。

It's impossible.

只有飞行员知道如何上下航行。

Only the pilots know how to get up and down.

这需要本地知识，你必须懂。

It's so know, you need the local knowledge.

父传子，代代相传。

Pass down father son.

詹姆斯·库克说：不行。

James Cook says, no.

不行。

No.

不行。

No.

他绘制了第一张海图，英国人凭借这张图，出人意料地抵达了新法兰西首府魁北克，在魁北克城墙前停泊了庞大的舰队，船上载着大量军队，并在那里度过了整个夏天。

He he he creates the first chart, and the British astonish the French by by arriving in Quebec, the capital of their empire in New France, in front of the walls of Quebec with a gigantic fleet and and a and a and with a huge number of troops on board and stayed there the whole summer.

实际上那个夏天非常复杂，而汤姆——他是地球上除了我家人之外，唯一读过我十年前那本书的三个人之一——我永远感激他，汤姆。

It's actually quite a complicated summer, and it's as as Tom, who's one of the only who's one of the three people on this earth outside my immediate family that read my book ten years ago, for which I'm eternally grateful, Tom.

我读过《好书》第十卷。

I've read Good Book 10.

所以他们最终还是接受了，这是一本非常好的书。

And and so they eventually take It's a really good book.

来吧。

Come on.

你认为为什么没人读它？

Why do you think nobody read it?

嗯，因为我能接触到数据。

Well, because I have access to data.

不。

No.

听我说。

Listen.

我们不会不公平地忽视这些书。

We're not gonna unjustly neglected books.

我我想说的是这本书。

I I I'm trying to say the book.

你说得对。

You're right.

再次登上畅销书排行榜。

Picking up the up the bestseller list again.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

好吧。

Okay.

所以他们最终占领了魁北克。

So they so they capture Quebec eventually.

简直是噩梦。

Absolute nightmare.

可怕地困难。

Terrifyingly difficult.

他们几乎都死于斑疹伤寒和痢疾，还有其他各种疾病。

They almost all die of typhus and dysentery and, ugh, the rest of it.

他们彼此之间全都闹翻了。

They all fall out with each other.

詹姆斯·沃尔夫在同僚和下属中非常不受欢迎。

James Wolfe James Wolfe is deeply unpopular with his fellow commander's subordinates.

实际上，最终登陆这个防御极其薄弱地点的计划，并不能算作他的主意。

It's not arguably not really his plan, in fact, that they eventually land at this undiff this very lightly defended.

他们使用了，你知道的，两栖作战。

They used they used you know, it's amphibious.

这正是英国最擅长的。

It's it's it's what Britain does really well.

他们在印度就是这样做得很好的。

It's what they've done well in India.

他们在加勒比海也会做得很好。

It's what they're gonna do well in the Caribbean.

这种做法一直延续到二十世纪后期，他们始终擅长于此。

It's what they do well all the way up until deep into the twentieth century.

他们在十九世纪的中国就是这样做的，依靠一支非凡的海军。

They do it in China in the nineteenth century, is they use this extraordinary navy.

我们通常认为的海军是大型战舰在深海中航行。

And and the navy we think of the navy sailing around big battleships in deep water.

但这里的海军指的是在极浅水域中航行的小型船只，深入大陆腹地。

The navy, this is about small boats in very shallow water penetrating deep into the heart of continents.

他们登陆了这些高地士兵，并攀上了亚伯拉罕高地。

They land these highlanders, and they scale up the heights of Abraham.

他们出其不意地袭击了法军，并在亚伯拉罕平原上击败了法军。

They catch the French by surprise, and they defeat the French army on the plane to Abraham.

而沃尔夫阵亡了。

And it's and and Wolf is killed.

作为一名指挥官，你一生中总该做的那件事。

Does the does the thing you always should do in life if you're a commander.

纳尔逊做到了。

Nelson does it.

威灵顿却愚蠢地没有做到。

Wellington fails to do it stupidly.

戈登做到了，却在胜利的时刻阵亡了。

Gordon does it, and and he's killed at the moment of victory.

而他他

And he He

他说了那些精彩的话，不是吗？

says these fantastic lines, doesn't he?

他说了什么？

What is it?

现在，感谢上帝。

Now god be praised.

当他得知法国人正在他面前溃逃时，我就能安心离世了。

I can die in peace or something when he's told the French are running before him.

这是真的吗？

Is this true?

他应该被描绘得满身伤痛，而且应该被画成一位殉道者的模样。

And he should be pain and he should and he should be painted looking like a martyr.

后来，他由本杰明·韦斯特绘制，这幅画太有名了。

Well, he's then painted by Benjamin West, too famous.

他后来又画了纳尔逊，这幅画我认为成了十八世纪传播最广的图像。

He then later paints Nelson, and that that's becomes, I think, the most widely distributed image of the of the eighteenth century.

我的意思是，它就像《统治吧，不列颠尼亚》一样，是塑造我们所认同的英国民族精神的熔炉。

I mean, it's it become it it is, you know, as as rule rule Britannia, this is a this is a kind of crucible for a a Britishness that that we we that we recognize.

你知道，这有点像是民族主义的体现，但用这个词可能有点时代错置，但它传达的是这样一种观念：英国的上帝是英格兰人，英国正是如此。

You know, this is a kind of it's tempting to use the word nationalist, but that's that's probably a little bit anachronistic, but it's it's this idea that Britain that God was an Englishman, that Britain had exactly.

我们都跑过了

And and we've all run

小偷。

on thief.

琳达·科利和《皇家不列颠》成为主题，顺便说一下，这一时期《大宪章》也被展出。

Linda Colley and and and Royal Britannia becomes and Magna Carta is displayed, by the way, during this period.

著名的是，大英博物馆在此期间成立，大宪章被放在大英博物馆大规模公开展示，并被标注为‘我们自由的堡垒’。

Famously, the the British Museum is a founded, and Magna Carta is put on a huge big public display in British Museum, and it's and it's just labeled as the bulwark of our liberties.

因此，这之间存在着纪念碑式战争与英国在战场上的胜利之间的联系。

And so there's this link between monumental warfare, British success on the battlefield.

这里还有一个英苏元素，因为许多英军士兵是曾经的詹姆斯党士兵，现在他们为英国王室而战。

There's again, there's an Anglo Scottish element here because lots of these British troops are former Jacobite soldiers who are now fighting for the British crowns

还有高地人。

and Highlanders.

高地人。

Highlanders.

没错。

Exactly.

所以这里正逐渐呈现出一个非常有趣的英国故事。

So there's a really interesting kind of in British story emerging here.

还有通过《大宪章》、博物馆等种种事物体现出来的英式英国例外主义观念。

And and then this idea of kind of English English British exceptionalism as well through Magna Carta, through museums, all that kind of stuff.

所以这真的很有意思。

So it's it's really interesting.

1759年最引人注目的时刻之一，顺便说一下，当时欧洲的腓特烈大帝正考虑自杀。

Then the the the most one of the most remarkable moments of 1759, as well as Fred by the way, Frederick the Great is at the moment in Europe contemplating suicide.

他处境糟糕透顶。

He's do is doing so badly.

就像希特勒一样。

Like Hitler.

对吧？

Right?

所以，这就是希特勒在地堡里阅读腓特烈大帝并从中获得灵感的部分。

So so so this is the this is the bit that Hitler in the bunker is reading up on Frederick the Great and getting inspiration from it.

对。

Right.

因为到这个时候，腓特烈大帝已经失去了柏林。

Because because he he Frederick the Great had lost Berlin by this stage.

他在一场关键战役中损失了一半的军队。

He's lost half his army in one particular battle.

他简直被彻底击垮了，但英国的资金让他得以继续作战。

It is absolutely he's been crushed, but he's been kept in the field by British money.

然后发生了史上最不可思议的事——沙皇去世了。

And then the most extraordinary thing ever, which is which is the the the the the czar died.

沙皇皇后也去世了，新上任的沙皇非常欣赏腓特烈大帝，单方面退出了与玛丽亚·特蕾莎的联盟。

The tsarina dies, and this new czar comes in who just likes Frederick the Great and decide just unilaterally leaves his alliance with Maria Theresa.

我的意思是，玛丽亚·特蕾莎是世界历史上最坚韧、最了不起的女性之一，而她面对的对手可都不简单。

I mean, Maria Theresa is one of long suffering and remarkable women in the history of the world, and that's up against some pretty tough competition.

就在她即将取得胜利之际，这个愚蠢、幼稚的俄国沙皇彼得却突然倒戈。

And she as she's on the verge of victory, this idiotic childlike Russian czar Peter.

逆转了。

Reverses.

没错。

Exactly.

随后，他的妻子叶卡捷琳娜大帝将他推翻，但在那之前，他已将大量军队借给了腓特烈，从而帮助腓特烈摆脱了困境。

He's then got rid of by Catherine the Great, his wife, but not before he lent a big chunk of his army to Frederick and and basically got Frederick out of the out of trouble.

因此，欧洲的局势刚好稳定到足以让英国腾出手来在其他地方大举收复失地。

So so Europe's just stable enough for the British to mop up everywhere else.

他们占领了瓜德罗普。

They captured Guadeloupe.

他们夺取了西非大片地区，包括西非的奴隶贸易港口和奴隶收集要塞。

They captured chunk of West Africa, slave trading ports in West Africa, and slave wasn't slave trading, slave gathering fortresses in West Africa.

到了年底，当一切似乎都完美到不能再好时，却出现了一个奇特而非凡的时刻——英国历史上最伟大的海战，人们本该熟知却鲜有人知，那就是基伯龙湾海战，由爱德华·霍克指挥。

And then at the end of the year, just when things couldn't have gone any better at all, you get this bizarre you get this extraordinary moment, the greatest naval battle in British history, which people should know about and they don't, which is the battle of Keeberon Bay, which Edward Hawke.

而且，我是说，纳尔逊，我敢听吗？

And, I mean, Nelson, dare I listen.

我是说，我比任何人都更喜欢纳尔逊。

I mean, I I'm I'm a bigger fan of Nelson Powers as the next guy.

我不认为他

I I don't think He's

打算贬低纳尔逊。

about to knock Nelson.

我只是想暂停一下纳尔逊。

I'm about to just stop Nelson.

这正在发生。

This is happening.

这就是播客的魅力所在。

This is this is the excitement of podcasts.

它们太大胆了。

They're so daring.

你根本不知道啊，老兄。

You just don't know, dude.

你不知道接下来会发生什么。

You don't know what's gonna happen next.

纳尔逊指挥着一支独立舰队。

Nelson commanded a detached fleet.

他并没有负责海峡舰队。

He was not in charge of the channel squadron.

他可以随心所欲地行动。

He could do what he liked.

这没什么问题。

It was fine.

他在地中海一带。

He was down in the Mediterranean.

他可以冒险试一试。

He he could take a few gambles.

明白吗？

Okay?

爱德华·霍克爵士指挥着负责保护英伦三岛免受法国入侵的皇家海军舰队。

Sir Edmund sir Edward Hawk is commanding the royal naval fleet responsible for protecting the British Isles against French invasion.

明白吗？

Okay?

然而，他却发现法国舰队已经出航了。

And yet and he finds that the French fleet have sailed.

他们打算与运输船队会合。

They're going to join up with their transports.

顺便说一下，地理上有个大问题：那里没有港口。

Big problem with geography, by the way, is there is no port.

这就是为什么上帝其实是英国人的原因。

This is why God is, in fact, an Englishman.

法国北部没有一个港口能容纳一支大军，同时又足够深，让所有战列舰同时停泊。

There is no port in Northern France which can have a large army sitting in it and is deep enough for battleships all to be there at the same time.

你有胸膛，但顺便说一句，这对风力不利；你确实有胸膛，但英国这片狭小的尖端地区食物根本不够。

You have breast, which is bad, by the way, for the wind, but you have breast, but there is not enough food in that tiny tip of Britain.

你想一想，胸膛位于英国最末端的位置。

You think about where Breast is on the tip of Britain.

它离法国其他任何地方都有好几英里远。

It's bloody miles away from anywhere else in France.

你不可能把足够的粮食运到那里。

You can't take enough food there.

因此，你一直面临入侵英格兰的难题——你必须把载运士兵的运输船和大型战舰分开停泊。

So you've got this permanent problem with trying to invade England, which you have to keep the transports containing the soldiers in a different place to the big battleships.

法国北部的港口条件很差，这就是为什么在七年战争之后，法国国王决定修建瑟堡，用一道巨大的海堤建造一个能容纳舰队、对抗英国的港口，结果却因此拖垮了法国财政。

They've got rubbish harbors in Northern France, which is why following the Seven Years' War, king of France decided to try and build Cherbourg as a massive seawall to create a port capable of taking on the British and bankrupt the French regime by doing that.

当时人人都说他是在往海里扔石头、把钱扔进大海。

And everyone said he was throwing rocks into the sea and throwing his money to sea.

不过，我们回头再谈这个。

Anyway, we'll come back to that.

所以，这支舰队已经启航了。

So so this the fleet has sailed.

他们正在与运输船会合。

They're meeting up with the transports.

霍克拦截了他们。

Hawke intercepts them.

在十一月，一场猛烈的风暴中，在凯伯隆湾那险恶的海岸外——那里以暗礁、岩石和海湾密布而闻名——霍克下令：‘多挂些帆！’

And in November, in a rising gale in November, off a brutal coast off Keeberon Bay, famously littered with shoals and rocks and inlets, Hawke says, cram on more sail.

我们要驶入基伯隆湾，对英国人来说，这基本上是未知海域。

We are going to sail into Quiberon Bay, uncharted territory, basically, for the Brits.

我们要追击那些躲在里面法国人。

We're gonna follow those French who are hiding in there.

他们正在逃离我们。

They're they're getting away from us.

随着这场秋日风暴加剧，太阳落山之际，霍克在日落时分取得了对法国舰队的惊人胜利，敌舰在狂风中倾覆。

As the as this autumnal gale is rising, as the sun is setting, and at at sunset, Hawke scores this astonishing victory against the French, ships capsizing in the winds.

在基伯龙湾的礁石之间，这是一个令人惊叹的故事。

Just amazing story in in amongst the rocks of Quiberon Bay.

那么，丹，这是否就像沿着圣劳伦斯河航行一样，海军拥有能够帮助他们避开浅滩的海图，还是只是说‘我们来赌一把’？

And, Dan, is that like is that because it's it's it's it's like, going up the Saint Lawrence River that the navy have the charts that enable them to negotiate the shoals, or is it just kind of, oh, we're gonna take a punt on this?

这两者都有。

That's it's a bit of both.

首先，这确实类似于海军驶入圣劳伦斯河时，对水手和军官航海技术的信心。

First of all, it's it's certainly like the navy going up to Saint Lawrence Lawrence River, a a confidence in the seamanship of of your of your naval ratings and officers.

同时，这也是七年战争中首次成功实现的一项惊人且极具戏剧性的创新——即这个现代国家构建体系的能力。

What is also happening is for the first successful time in the Seven Years' War, which is astonishingly important and dramatic a dramatic innovation, is all of the, again, the modernity of this state, its ability to create systems.

你首次成功地对法国港口实施了封锁。

You for the first time in ever, you have a you have a successful blockade of French ports.

你不是简单地说‘我们要盯着法国人，等他们出来就打’。

You you you don't just say we're gonna keep an eye on the French, and when they come out, we're gonna fight them.

你明确说：他们休想离开港口。

You say they will not leave port.

我们将封锁他们，不只是几周，而是数月乃至数年。

We will blockade them in for not just weeks, but for months and years.

因此，他们的水手将得不到训练。

So their sailors will not be trained.

他们的船只会在港口腐烂，他们会失去

Their ships will rot at the you know, they will lose their

士气。

morale.

这是第一次，是的。

This this is this is the first Yes.

这是一种后来在拿破仑战争和第一次世界大战中被采用的战略的首次尝试。

Tryout of a strategy that's then used in the Napoleonic Wars, First World War.

之前曾尝试过，但三周后，这些船只就不得不返航。

It's tried earlier, but after three weeks, these ships come back.

所有人都得了坏血病。

Everyone's got scurvy.

只是船员们正在陆续倒下。

It's just the crews are falling.

通过封锁，你正在摧毁自己的舰队。

You destroy your own fleet by blockading.

这就是问题所在。

That's the problem.

丹，我们需要休息一下。

Dan, we need to take a break.

我们的听众也需要喝点什么，比如来一口金酒之类的。

Our listeners will be they need a they need to have a a swig of gold or something.

是的。

Yeah.

休息一下。

Comfort break.

然后他们就可以回来了。

And then they can return.

一个柠檬。

A lemon.

但但但我想我的意思是，我们已经基本涵盖了这场战争的全貌。

But but but I think I mean, we've covered we've basically we've covered the the the sweep of the of the war.

当我们回来时，或许我们会有一些问题，可以试着把这些内容放在更广阔的背景下来看。

And when we come back, perhaps we we we've got some questions, and we can try and put all this in in the in the slightly broader perspective.

当您的访客去喝酒时，不妨让他们记住源自这一时期的皇家海军祝酒词。

When your visitors go for a drink, may let them remember the toast of the Royal Navy that derives straight from this period.

愿我们的军官拥有鹰的眼睛和狼的心。

May our officers have the eye of a hawk and the heart of a wolf.

一个精彩的结语。

A splendid note.

一个精彩的结语，适合在商业广告中断时使用。

A splendid note from which to go to a commercial break.

你好。

Hello.

欢迎回到《历史的其余部分》，今天我们继续讨论七年战争。

Welcome back to The Rest is History and the Seven Years' War.

我们今天和丹·斯诺一起探讨这场战争。

We're with with Dan Snow talking about it.

丹，你为我们精彩地梳理了战争的进程，我们主要聚焦于英国取得的巨大胜利。

Dan, so you gave us a brilliant account of of the course of the of of the war, and we were majoring on the the scale of British triumphs.

几代人以来，这些胜利一直具有标志性意义。

And for generations, these triumphs have been kind of iconic.

我们谈到了沃尔夫之死、基伯龙湾战役，还有普拉西战役，在那里——

So we talked about the death of Wolf, battle of Kiberon Bay, also the battle of Plassey where

印度的克莱夫。

Clive of India.

克莱夫最终为初生的英帝国赢得了印度。

Clive of India basically wins, as it turns out, India for the nascent British empire.

这些伟大的场景长期以来一直被颂扬。

So great scenes that have long been celebrated.

然而，我认为可以说，这种认为英国这些胜利必然对世界有益的观点，如今比以往更具争议性。

However, I think it's fair to say that the idea that this is necessarily great for the world is is now more contested than it was.

因此，关于克莱夫·印度的雕像矗立在白厅，现在已有人对此表示不满。

So that the idea that Clive of India has a statue in Whitehall, there are there are grumblings about it.

你认为这是否是七年战争普遍被遗忘的原因之一？

Do you think that that is one of the reasons why the Seven Years' War has has been generally forgotten?

而且，它现在是否在某种程度上变得具有争议性，以至于

And and is it kind of now problematic in a way that

汤姆，接着说。

Tom, follow-up.

上一代人？

Earlier generations?

那辆红色巴士对你来说

The red bus for you to

中产阶级在背景中隐隐躁动不安。

Middle England is is is rumbling away in the background.

但我的意思是，这正是问题所在，对吧？

But, I mean, that's that's the kind of issue, isn't it?

现在要庆祝像沃尔夫这样的人物，可能比以前更复杂了。

That that it's it's more complicated now perhaps than it was to celebrate someone like Wolf.

是的。

Yes.

温迪·克莱因。

Wendy Klein.

你说得完全对。

You're you're exactly right.

我认为有两个问题。

There are two I think there's two issues.

一个是，它之所以不再受欢迎，是因为它被其他更伟大的战争所取代，这些战争不可避免地占据了主导地位，就像丘吉尔掩盖了劳合·乔治，劳合·乔治掩盖了小皮特和帕默斯顿一样。

One is it has fallen out of favor because it was it has been succeeded by other great wars, greater wars, which inevitably, like the way that Churchill obscures Lloyd George, who obscures Pitt the Younger and Palmerston.

我认为在历史记忆中，我们通常只能容纳一种特定的国家军事行动。

You know, I think in terms of historical memory, we we kind of only have place for one particular, kind of national in national military endeavor.

当然，第二次世界大战在今天显得如此庞大。

And, of course, second world war looms so large today.

但我预计，第二次世界大战也会经历类似七年战争所经历的过程。

And I but I expect that second world war will go through this process that the Seven War has gone through.

我的意思是，我们的父母成长的那个时代，七年战争是至关重要的。

I mean, my our parents grew up I mean, seventy year war was essential.

沃尔夫，我的意思是，盖·亨蒂的书。

Wolf I mean, g a henty books.

我小时候的 upbringing 很特别，读了很多祖母家里留下的奇怪的爱德华时代书籍。

I had a bizarre upbringing of kind of reading strange Edwardian books that were left around my grandma's house.

你知道，

You know,

你不是一个人在阅读。

you read not alone.

嗯，我觉得在这里都是朋友，但我确实被激进化了。

Well, I think I'm among friends here, but but I was kind of radicalized.

现在我进入中年，正小心翼翼地摆脱自己曾经的激进思想。

Now I'm I'm having to unradicalize myself carefully as I as I enter middle age.

我走的路和许多人恰恰相反。

I'm doing the opposite to many people's journeys.

但沃尔夫在魁北克、克莱夫在印度的故事，是奠基性的人物故事，某种程度上正是因为如此。

But I Wolf in Quebec, Clive in India were foundational stories people, and and in a way because they were.

我的意思是，沃尔夫在魁北克迅速取得胜利，直接赢得了整个新法兰西。

I mean, Wolf's victory at at Quebec, in short order, delivered the whole of New France.

我的意思是，在美国独立战争之前，我们应当记住。

I mean, very briefly, before the American Revolution, we should remember.

我的意思是，整个北美洲几乎都归英国所有，除了向西延伸的西班牙殖民地。

I mean, the whole of North America virtually, apart from the New Spain, which stretched

来自富有海洋气息的雅各布·霍金斯的一个精彩问题。

up into A question from the the the splendidly marrow maritime sounding Jacob Hawkins.

如果英国输掉了七年战争，我们还会拥有大英帝国吗？还是会爆发独立战争？

If England had lost the Seven Years' War, do we still get the British Empire and or the War of Independence?

那么，让我们先把独立战争放在一边。

So let's leave the War of Independence to one side.

但大英帝国，基本上，这场战争造就了大英帝国。

But the British Empire mean, basically, this is the war that creates the British Empire.

正如我们所认识的那样。

As as we recognize it.

是的，正是如此。

As as a yes.

按照九世纪的理解。

As the ninth century understand it.

因此，这存在问题，这并不是一百年前那种纯粹值得庆祝的事情。

So therefore, that's problematic in That's that's not something for unalloyed celebration, which it was a 100 years ago.

这里有一个问题。

There is this issue.

我提到了马提尼克，它被占领了。

I mentioned Martinique, which is captured.

我提到了瓜德罗普，它也被占领了。

Guadeloupe, I mentioned captured.

马提尼克在七月，西非，塞内加尔。

Martinique in July, West West Africa, Senegal.

你知道，这些西非地区都被占领了。

You know, these places in West Africa are captured.

这关乎奴隶贸易。

That's about the slave trade.

这关乎奴隶贸易和大量被奴役的人类。

That's about the slave the the trade and enslaved human beings vastly.

令人惊讶的是，有一个关键时刻，法国面临类似加拿大或瓜德罗普的抉择——这在国际事务研究中已成为一种被庆祝的时刻：法国人必须决定，在谈判桌上是要求收回加拿大还是瓜德罗普？

And amazingly amazingly, there's this great moment where France has a Canada or Guadeloupe moment, which has become a kind of celebrate thing in international by international affairs kind of studies is that they there's this moment when the French have to decide, do they ask for Canada back at the negotiating table or Guadalupe?

但他们选择了瓜德罗普，真是令人惊讶。

But they choose Guadalupe, amazingly.

如今地球上第二大国家，拥有丰富的石油资源，你知道，财富惊人。

The second largest country on Earth now with vast oil, you know, incredible wealth.

加拿大人拒绝了，像沃尔泰这样的人都说那不过是几英亩的冰天雪地，只有海狸。

It was rejected by Canada, people like Voltais said it was a few acres of frozen snow, and it was just the beavers.

那地方唯一有用的只是帽子。

It was just the hats that there it was only thing useful for.

因此，这是因为糖在十八世纪是一种超级商品。

So that and that's because sugar was grown, the super commodity of the eighteenth century.

糖是由那些岛屿上的奴隶种植的。

Sugar was grown by enslaved people on those islands.

利润极其丰厚。

Hugely, hugely profitable.

贸易带来的资金，源源不断地流入英国风险资本家的口袋。

The trade derived the money, the the trade, the the cash flowing into venture capitalist pockets in Britain.

正如我们现在已经反复提及的，我们都清楚，奴隶贸易在十八世纪早期英国经济、政治、社会等各方面的发展中至关重要。

As we have all rehearsed now, we all know, where the slave trade was hugely important within that development of the early of of eighteenth century British economy, politics, society, all that stuff.

所以，这正是为什么谈论它、庆祝它如此困难。

So that's why it's difficult to talk it's difficult to celebrate.

我们现在对罗伯特·克莱夫有了更多了解。

We now know more about Robert Clive.

我的意思是，他确实是个令人不快的人。

I mean, he was a he was, I'm afraid, an unattractive character.

他他他

He he he

心理健康状况不佳。

Struggled with his mental health.

我想这就是你如何为他正名的方式吧。

I think that's how you'd rehabilitate

帮他洗白，不是吗？

him, isn't it?

抱歉。

Sorry.

当然。

Absolutely.

没错。

That's correct.

然而，他是为精神健康献身的烈士。

However a martyr to his mental health.

这也对。

That's correct as well.

然而，普拉西战役的胜利并不是英勇的英国精神对抗所谓软弱、专制、不道德的东方战士的胜利。

However, the the victory at Placie was not a victory of kind of plucky British spirit against the kind of, oriental, weak oriental, despotic, unviral fighters.

这纯粹是一场大规模的贿赂。

It was just a gigantic bribery.

你知道，当时有一些印度权贵和东印度公司以及类似人物之间进行了现金交易。

It was you know, there there was there was cash exchange between rogue Indian sort of magnates and the East India Company and and and people like that.

所以，要真正理解这一点就更难了。

So it is it is harder to yeah.

当然。

Of course.

你做

Do you do

你认为，大英帝国征服世界广大地区，是否只是出于英国核心目标——击败法国——的附带结果？

you think there's a case for saying that the the the the British Empire and the conquest of vast swathes of the world was kind of incidental to the core British ambition, which was to beat the French?

我认为这是附带结果。

I think it was incidental.

这是一个非常棒的问题，因为就获取领土而言，正如你们所知，把世界涂成粉色在政策制定者和白厅的许多人中一直很不受欢迎。

This is a a really wonderful question because it in terms of in terms of getting territory, as you guys know, painting painting the world pink was always quite unpopular, bunch of huge swathes of policymakers and and people in Whitehall.

这非常昂贵。

It's really expensive.

你会遭到强烈反弹。

You get massive blowback.

所以，一个很好的例子是，七年战争结束后，英国政府说：好吧。

So for one one great example, after the Seven Years' War, you get the British government to say, right.

我们虽然在技术上征服了北美这片巨大的领土，但却禁止英国殖民者，即北美殖民者，进入宾夕法尼亚的边疆地区，这成为美国革命的一大原因。

We might now have conquered technically this bloody enormous area in North America, but they banned their British settlers, their North American settlers from settling in the back country of Pencil, which is a huge reason for the American Revolution.

因为英国人认为，我们最不想做的就是控制一个横跨美洲的国家。

Because the Brits go, the last thing we wanna do is control a kind of trans American state.

这会花掉大量资金，而且当地人讨厌我们。

It's gonna cost a ton of money, and the and and the locals hate us.

于是你就看到了庞蒂亚克起义。

And you get this Pontiac's revolt.

北美原住民开始对抗英国人和这些殖民者。

You get North American natives fighting the Brits and fighting these settlers.

因此，这正是一个绝佳的例证：大英帝国在非洲的扩张，其实是在不经意间获得的，他们当时只想保护苏伊士运河。

And and you so you so it is that that's the right great expression that a British empire in Africa was acquired in a kind of a fit of absence of mind when all they're trying do was protect the Suez Canal.

所以我认为，欧洲传统的权力政治，以及英国人想要致富的愿望，都起到了作用。

So I think there is an element that that Europe, the good old fashioned sense of power politics within Europe, and also the British wanted to get rich.

在这些博弈中，致富带有重商主义的成分。

And in those dice, getting getting rich had a mercantilist element to it.

人们认为，必须控制加勒比海的岛屿，才能充分利用蔗糖贸易。

You had it was thought you had to control the islands of the Caribbean to to take advantage of this trade in sugar.

所以，运送这些糖的应该是英国船只。

So it should be British ships carrying that sugar.

船员也应该是英国人。

They should be crewed by British crews.

它们应该使用英国的港口。

They should use British ports.

它们应该在海上与其他船只转运，再由这些船只出口到欧洲。

They should cross ship to other ships that then export it to Europe.

所以，是的，为了击败法国，但更重要的是为了金钱，为了经济实力，而不只是在战场上击败他们。

So, yes, to beat the French, but it was about money and it was about money and economic clout as much as as as beating them on a battlefield.

但是，丹，这不是有个论点吗？

But, Dan, there's this argument, isn't there?

剑桥历史学家布伦丹·西姆斯提出过这样一个观点：我们对英国及其世界角色、帝国演变以及七年战争的看法都是错误的，因为我们只关注加拿大和印度，而他主张真正的核心其实是在欧洲，英国决策者真正关心的是欧洲，而我们却把这一点从历史中抹去了，我们过于沉迷于全球化的英国形象，没有意识到当权者最重视的始终是欧洲。

Brendan Sims has this argument, Cambridge historian, that the way we think about Britain and its world role and the evolution of the empire and the Seven Years' War is a foundational moment, and that is all wrong because we're looking at Canada, we're looking at India, and we and and he argues that the action was all really in Europe, that and Europe was what mattered to British policymakers, that we've sort of written that out of history, and that we're too obsessed with the kind of global Britain Well and that we don't realize how much the establishment cared about Europe above all.

我能把这一点和节目好友史蒂芬·克拉克的一个问题结合起来说吗？

Could I just mix that point in with a question from Stephen Clark, good friend of the show?

七年战争是否确立了普鲁士作为大国的地位？

Did the Seven Years' War establish Prussia as a great power?

所以，我们始终要记住七年战争的另一面，那就是普鲁士这一维度。

So that's that that is always the other aspect of the Seven Years' War to keep in mind is is the Prussian dimension.

很好，托马斯，斯蒂芬·克拉克干得漂亮，汤姆，你也为这个完美的过渡把大家联系在一起了。

Well, Thomas, well done, Stephen Clark, and and well done, Tom, for that very lovely segue of marrying all everyone together.

现在我们都在和谐地合唱了。

Singing we're all singing harmony now.

多米尼克，你说得对。

Dominic, you're absolutely right.

当然，有趣的是，在1910年，当大英帝国覆盖了大约20%（实际是1920年覆盖了25%）的地球陆地面积时，这些战役——比如沃尔夫将军在魁北克的行动——在那个故事中显得至关重要。

And, of course, what's interesting, we all in 1910, when the British Empire did cover 20 well, 1920, when it covered 25% of the earth's landmass, clearly, these campaigns were talking about general Wolfe in Quebec feels vitally important in that story.

如今，当我们面对一个由德国主导的欧洲，以及一个大英帝国已不再重要或已不复存在的世界时，我们突然意识到：你知道吗？

Now that we're looking at a Europe dominated by Germany and a world in which the British Empire no longer matters or exists, we suddenly think, oh, you know what?

也许弗雷德里克大帝这件事的重要性，比我们之前注意到的要大得多，而这恰恰是乔治二世国王和纽卡斯尔公爵当时主要关注的焦点。

Maybe that whole Frederick the Great thing was a bit more important than we were we were noticing, which, of course, is exactly what king George the second and the duke of Newcastle were primarily focused on.

他们关注的是欧洲的力量平衡。

They were focused on the balance of power in Europe.

他们希望获得影响力，但不希望欧洲出现霸权性强国。

They wanted to access they did not want a hegemonic power emerging Europe.

他们视法国为对手，因此希望借助弗雷德里克大帝这位有用的北德力量，制衡奥地利与法国在欧洲的势力。

They assumed it with the French, and they wanted, therefore, Frederick the Great, this kind of useful North German, counterweight to Austro French power in Europe.

当然，在他的统治期间，普鲁士的领土扩大了一倍。

Now, of course, Prussia doubles in size during his rule.

有趣的是，在七年战争期间，普鲁士的领土实际上并没有扩大。

Funny enough, during the Seven War, actually doesn't.

更准确地说，他经受了最惊人的考验。

It's it's more like he's tested by the most astonishing.

正如我在播客开头所说，他是在七年战争中经受了战火的淬炼。

As I said at the beginning of the podcast, it's it's more a he he's hardened by fire in the Seven Years' War.

他在奥地利王位继承战争初期获得了西里西亚，而正如你们所知，这可能是欧洲历史上最重要的事件，因为那里正是腐朽的根源所在。

He gained Silesia at the beginning of the War of Austrian succession, which actually, as you know, is probably the most important thing ever to happen in the history of Europe, because that's where the rot sits in.

我的意思是，如果你想要的话，俄罗斯、普鲁士，还有奥匈帝国的终结，以及缓慢的衰落。

I mean, if you wanna you know, Russia Prussia, the end of Austria Hungary, the slow decline.

我的意思是，他在1740年从年轻的奥地利新统治者玛丽亚·特蕾莎手中夺取西里西亚，是这一切发生转折的时刻。

I mean, him seizing Silesia in 1740 from the young Austrian new ruler Maria Theresa was is the moment when everything turns.

这是关键的转折点。

It's the fulcrum.

你或许能给我讲一个类似尤利乌斯·凯撒成为大祭司那样的时刻，汤姆，但那就是这样的时刻。

There's probably some Julius Caesar moment you could give me about him becoming pontifex, whatever it was, Tom, but that's kind of the moment.

七年战争强化了这一征服成果。

And the Seven Years' War reinforces that conquest.

玛丽亚·特蕾莎全力以赴。

Maria Theresa goes all out.

她倾尽所有，甚至卖掉了自己的珠宝。

She bankrupt she sells her jewelry.

她不惜一切代价要夺回西里西亚。

She goes all out to get Silesia back.

她保卫了波希米亚，但没能夺回西里西亚。

She defends Bohemia, but she and and she doesn't get Silesia back.

弗雷德里克被允许保留他在欧洲的领土扩张，后来他开始瓜分波兰时，领土进一步扩大。

Frederick's allowed to keep his gains in Europe, and they will expand as he starts to partition Poland later on.

所以，如今的普鲁士，当德国在二十一世纪成为一个重要国家时，它的根基正是源于十八世纪普鲁士的这场实验与成功。你可以说，是的，我们或许应该更多地关注七年战争对欧洲的影响。

So so Prussia now and sitting now in the twenty first century, when when Germany is a significant thing, it and it is derived from that Prussian that Prussian experiment, Prussian success in eighteenth century, you can say, yeah, we should probably be thinking more about Europe, than in the Seven Years' War.

这确实令人惊叹，想到今天的欧洲格局是在七年战争中奠定的，还有盎格鲁文化的影响，比如

It it I mean, it is amazing to think of that, to think of of the the kind of the the Europe of of of today as being set in the Seven Years' War, but also the the the spread of Anglophone culture, the fact that

嗯

Well

美利坚合众国说英语，印度也是一个以英语为语言的国家。

The United States Of America speaks English, that in India is an English speaking country.

想象一下，如果加拿大以法语为官方语言，成为对美国的一种语言和文化制衡，汤姆。

Imagine if Canada was French as a counterweight, as a linguistic cultural counterweight to The US, Tom.

你知道，如果有一个说法语的加拿大好莱坞，那世界的文化格局就会完全不同了。

You know, if there was a Canadian Hollywood that was French speaking, I mean Well like, well, the world would be utterly the culture would just yeah.

我感觉多米尼克·桑德伯格并不喜欢精彩而充满活力的蒙特利尔电影场景。

Dominic Sandberg, I sense, is not a fan of the wonderful and very, very dynamic Montreal film scene.

而且

And

我之前对这个电影场景一无所知。

A film scene in which I was hitherto unaware.

《野蛮人入侵》是一部伟大的电影。

Barbarian Invasions is one of the great films.

作为加拿大公民，我不太清楚。

As a Canadian citizen, I won't know.

但你说得对。

But I but but you're right.

当然，俾斯麦非常出色。

And, course, Bismarck, brilliant.

我最喜欢的一句关于英语文化的话是：人们在英国以外的地方，比在英国本土更常谈论《大宪章》。

My favorite quote about the the anglophone stuff, the the the fact that people wazz on about Magna Carta more outside Britain than do inside Britain.

事实上，澳大利亚人、印度人和美国人所拥有的议会传统，都源自我们这个根本性的岛屿。

The fact that the Australians, the the the Indians, the Americans have got parliamentary traditions that date that that all stem from this fundamental island of ours.

当然，所有这些都十分有趣，七年战争让这一点变得尤为重要。

All of that stuff, of course, is fun the Seven Years' War makes that very important.

到了十九世纪末，俾斯麦 brilliantly 说，你知道，他退休后回到了自己的庄园。

And Bismarck brilliantly says, at the end of the nineteenth century, Bismarck, as you know, he retired to his estate.

威廉二世把他赶了出去，他余生都心情恶劣，一位年轻记者前去拜访，问他：你觉得未来最重要的是什么？

Kaiser Wilhelm kinda kicked him out, and he was in a foul mood for the rest of his And a young journalist like it was went and said, you know, what do think will be the most important?

当我们展望新的二十世纪时，究竟什么才是真正决定二十世纪走向的因素？

You know, when we're looking at the new the twentieth century, what what what is it that will really determine the course of the twentieth century?

俾斯麦立即回答：北美讲英语这一事实。

And Bismarck answers immediately the fact that North America speaks English.

他确实说得完全正确。

And he and he's exactly right.

你知道，二十世纪那些伟大的、具有决定性的战役——先是对抗帝国主义德国，然后是对抗法西斯，再是对抗共产主义——正是由讲英语的盎格鲁-撒克逊资本主义经济体组成的联盟团结起来，最终战胜了这些势力，这一点至关重要。

You know, the the great the the monumental battles of the twentieth century, first against imperial Germany, then against fascism, and then against communism, It is the it is that coalition of of of English speaking Anglo Anglo Saxon capitalist economies that gather together and are able to overcome those, and that that is absolutely essential.

丹，你显然是关于英语民主国家的历史领域的亚瑟·布赖恩特。

Dan, you are the Arthur Bryant of history, clearly, with the English speaking democracies.

我知道。

I know.

是的，我知道。

It's I know.

丹尼尔·哈南正在听。

Daniel Hanan is listening.

他正在认真地

He's getting a serious

但但但让我们就让我们快结束了。

But but but but let's just let's we're coming to a coming to a close.

所以我有两个问题，这两个问题当然都将话题重新带回十八世纪的视角。

So I've I've got two questions here, both of which, of course, put this back into an eighteenth century perspective.

其中一个问题是来自托尼·奥唐奈尔博士的：七年战争，即法印战争，是美国被遗忘的建国神话吗？

One of them, is from doctor Tony O'Donnell, and he asks, is the Seven Years' War, the French and Indian War, America's forgotten creation creation myth?

华盛顿等人领导了一场战争，后来的税收旨在偿还战争费用，但殖民者拒绝承担自身防御的成本。

Washington and others lead in a war that later taxes sought to repay, and the colonials rejected the cost of their own defense.

然后我们收到了吉姆·朱的一条精彩评论。

And then we have a great comment from, Jim Zhu.

纽卡斯尔公爵通常被认为是个小丑，部分原因是他坚决支持英奥联盟，而该联盟最终破裂，将欧洲拖入了战争。

Lord Newcastle was generally regarded as a buffoon in part over his staunch support for the Anglo Austrian alliance that blew up and dragged Europe into war.

二十年后，诺斯勋爵因外交孤立而失去了美洲。

Twenty years later, Lord North lost America because of diplomatic isolation.

从后见之明来看，谁才是更大的小丑？

Who's the greater buffoon in hindsight?

是的。

Yeah.

所以我认为，美国独立战争的根源在于英国取得的胜利。

So I guess both of those that the the roots of the American war of independence lie in the victories that Britain wins.

这两场革命，汤姆。

The two two revolutions, Tom.

对吧？

Right?

美国和法国。

America and France.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得是的。

I think Yeah.

我认为这是对的，多米尼克。

We I think that's right, Dominic.

我认为法国人离开后，决定与英国在海上竞争，并像我前面说的那样，花费了难以想象的巨额资金，直接导致了他们的破产。

I think the the French go away and decide to try and compete with Britain at sea and and spend unimaginable amounts of money doing so, like I said earlier, and and directly contributes towards their bankruptcy.

但但，但同时也确实如此。

But but, but also in yeah.

我认为，美国独立战争的灾难源于两个方面。

The the the the the the disaster of the American revolutionary war is is sort of stems, I think, from two areas.

一是英国国内对于和平条约存在激烈争论，我们不想成为新的路易十四。

One is that Britain and there was an active debate within Britain around the peace treaty is what we don't wanna do is become the new Louis the fourteenth.

我们不想当坏人。

We don't wanna be the baddies.

你知道的，那个很棒的喜剧小品。

You know, that great sketch show.

我们是反派吗？

Are we the bad guys?

是的。

Yeah.

因此，他们非常担心自己看起来像欧洲霸主。

So so they were terribly nervous about appearing to be a European hegemon.

我认为他们在这方面基本失败了，因为他们以为在和平条约中对法国让步更多，就能避免自己不受欢迎。

And I think they largely failed in that because they they they thought they'd give a bit more back to France on the peace treaty that would avoid them being unpopular.

但实际上，他们在两方面都失败了。

They actually kinda failed at both.

他们既没有保留所有东西，也没有消除这种压倒性的印象。

They neither held on to everything nor did they stop this overwhelming impression.

英国现在成了欧洲的问题。

They Britain was now the problem in Europe.

因此，例如，荷兰和其他欧洲国家在独立战争问题上，要么保持中立，要么相当敌对，或者支持美国人。

And so for example, the Dutch, other European nations, when it comes to the war of independence, they either neutral or pretty hostile neutral or they back the Americans.

但更直接的是葡萄牙。

But in a more direct Portuguese.

葡萄牙人当时站在我们这边吗？

I had did the Portuguese stay with us?

我记得在美国独立战争期间，我不确定

I remember in the American Revolutionary War, I don't know

关于这个。

about that.

查一下。

Check that out.

是的

Yeah.

我确信他们确实如此。

I'm sure they did.

我不知道。

I don't know.

那太好了。

That's great.

葡萄牙人永远不会让我们失望。

They would never let us down, the Portuguese.

他们永远不会放弃。

They would never let down.

不。

No.

而且我认为，但从非常直接的意义上说，七年战争无疑是美国的基石，因为你做了那件可怕的事——你消除了威胁。

And and and I think but but in a very direct sense, of course, the American the the Seven Years' War is the American foundation with, because you do that terrible thing, which is you remove the threat.

而美国殖民地一直生活在法国人和印第安人的威胁之下，印第安人就在东海岸大城市以西仅数英里之遥。

And the American colonies had lived under the dagger of French and Native American, Native Americans only, you know, miles from the easterns the big cities of the Eastern Seaboard.

你知道，蒙卡尔姆曾非常接近东海岸的大定居点。

You know, Montcalm comes very close to the big settlements of the Eastern Seaboard.

法国人现在已经消失了。

The French are now gone.

英国控制了整个大陆。

Britain controls the continent.

印第安人再也没有盟友了。

The native American have no allies anymore.

他们陷入极度的绝望，而正如我们所知，接下来发生的事是一段可怕、反乌托邦般的故事。

They are terribly bereft, and they are then as we know, a a awful story, dystopian story, what happens to them.

因此，命运如此，有一位英国殖民地总督留下了一句名言。

And so fate so there's a great quote from an America a British governor of colonial governor.

他说：英国究竟得到了什么？

And he said here, what did British gain?

我认为他说的是，这是她参与过的最辉煌、最成功的战争，她因此获得了一个帝国，却无力保卫、维持或治理，因为她拥有这个庞大的帝国却无法负担其开支，于是英国试图向美洲殖民者征税以换取保护。

And I think he said from the most glorious and successful war which she has ever engaged upon, and that he she gained an empire that that she was unable to defend, gay, maintain, or govern because she was then had this giant empire that she couldn't pay for, and and Britain tried to tax the American colonists for their protection.

在我看来，这完全合理。

In my opinion, entirely reasonably.

明白吗？

Alright?

无论如何，现在需要一支常备军来保护这个庞大的帝国。

Anyway, so they a military a standing military force is now required to protect this giant empire.

他们与美国人发生了分歧，而美国人环顾四周后心想：等一下。

They they fell out with the Americans, and the Americans looked around and went, hold on a minute.

我觉得我们不再需要英国人了。

I don't think we need the Brits anymore.

谁知道呢，我们根本不需要这些人来保护我们。

Who know, we do not need these guys protecting us.

我们现在拥有了这片广阔内陆地区的所有优势。

We have got all the advantages now of this giant hinterland.

让我们把英国人转移一下。

Let's shift the Brits.

所以从非常现实的意义上说，这是巨大的忘恩负义。

So so in a very real sense Say massive ingratitude.

巨大的忘恩负义。

Massive ingratitude.

尤其是这里。

Especially here.

他

He's

是个逃税行为，不是吗？

a tax dodge, isn't it?

我的意思是，这正是

I mean, that's what it

是的。

is.

是的。

Yeah.

而且所有的弗吉尼亚工厂

Well and and they all the Virginia plants

美国都在享受这一点。

and America are enjoying this.

嗯，所有的所有的

Well, all the all the

避税行为消失了。

tax dodge is lost.

我们刚刚失去了大约20%的观众。

We just lost, like, 20% of our audience.

避税行为。

A tax dodge.

哦，不。

Oh, no.

别担心。

Don't worry.

他会回来的。

He'll come back.

而且，这个避税手段不仅仅是个避税手段。

And and a tax dodge, it was not only a tax dodge.

它还是一笔巨大的债务。

It was also a a giant debt.

你知道，弗吉尼亚的种植园主们在伦敦欠下了巨额债务，但他们基本上说：我们现在不还债了。

You know, they didn't the the the Virginia planters, they're terribly indebted Virginia plants in London, but they basically went, we're not gonna pay our debts now.

我们正在争取独立。

We're getting independence.

所以，是的，确实如此。

So, yes, it was.

对。

Right.

在这样一个沉重而可耻的基调下，我们结束了七年战争。

And on that somber note, that somber and disgraceful note, I I we've brought the Seven Years' War to an end.

我们已经证明，萨克雷的说法是胡说八道。

We've demonstrated that Thackeray was talking nonsense.

是的。

Yeah.

完全有可能解释七年战争的进程。

It's perfectly possible to explain the course of the Seven Years' War.

汤姆，我们绝对不能再让丹·斯诺回到这个节目了。

Tom, we must never have we must never have Dan Snow back on this program again.

这毫无疑问。

That is that is for sure.

他太无礼了。

He's been so rude.

对。

Yeah.

他太无礼了

He's been rude

对我们的观众无礼。

about rude about our audience.

不。

No.

这绝对值得。

It more than worth it.

太值得了，丹。

More than worth it, Dan.

真的非常感谢你。

Can't thank you enough.

希望你们喜欢这个播客。

And I hope you've enjoyed the podcast.

我们下周再见，我认为到时候我们要讲法国大革命，对吧？

We will see you next week where Dominic, I think we're actually doing the French Revolution, aren't we?

法国大革命和食物，还有食物。

French Revolution and food and food.

是的。

Yeah.

不是在同一个播客里。

Not in the same podcast.

法国大革命可以说是这期节目的自然延续。

The French Revolution is a kind of natural sequel to this.

所以。

So

对。

Yes.

那接下来发生了什么？

So what happened next?

是的。

Yes.

我觉得我们会这么做

And I think we'll do that

为了这个。

for that.

我们要请这首歌的嘉宾。

We're gonna do that songs guest.

是的。

Yeah.

就我们自己。

Just us.

歌曲，丹。

Songs, Dan.

我会关注这个。

I'm gonna tune into that.

那一定会很棒。

That's gonna be fantastic.

非常感谢你，丹。

Thanks so much, Dan.

非常感谢你的收听。

Thanks very much for listening.

我们再见。

We will see you.

大家。

Everybody.

再见。

Bye bye.

拜拜。

Bye.

感谢收听《历史其余部分》。

Thanks for listening to The Rest is History.

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那就是 restishistorypod.com。

That's restishistorypod.com.