48. 法国大革命

我的意思是，那些其实是极其恶毒的粪便色情小册子。

Mean, I was about say really scatological pornographic pamphlets, incredibly vicious.

我的意思是，毫无疑问她非常奢侈，而且非常保守。

I mean, she's very there's no doubt she's very extravagant, and she's very conservative.

她是奥地利人，你知道的，但她真的是

She's an Austrian, you know Well, but is she

因为根据我观看索菲亚·科波拉那部由克里斯汀·邓斯特主演的经典影片的经历，当我的孩子们——我的女儿们——成长时，那部电影是她们的最爱。

is Because I based on my viewing of Sofia Coppola's classic starring Kirsten Dunst, which, when my children, my daughters were growing up, was was their go to film.

那是她们最喜欢的电影。

It was their favorite film.

所以对她们来说，玛丽·安托瓦内特是一种真正的偶像。

So Marie Antoinette, for them, was a kind of real icon.

我认为，奇怪的是，这部电影在某种程度上真实地呈现了玛丽·安托瓦内特作为卢梭式人物的形象：她追求自然地生活，活出真实的自我，同时又保留着王室的特权。

And I I think, oddly, that film is kind of true to the sense of Marie Antoinette as this kind of Rousseauist figure, that she's all about leading her life naturally, living her own truth, while also keeping hold of the, you know, the privileges of monarchy.

所以，她身上有那么一点梅根的气质

So there's a slight there's a there is a slight kind of Meghan quality to

哦，天啊。

Oh, god.

这太严厉了。

That's harsh.

但我

But I

我觉得玛丽内特值得拥有更好的生活。

think I think Marinette deserves deserves better.

她想要她的蛋糕。

She wants her cake.

而且还吃得非常优雅。

And eats it very nicely.

她 famously 没有说过的话。

What she famously doesn't say.

她确实——她没说过这句话。

She absolutely Which she didn't say.

是的。

Yes.

刻薄。

Mean.

霍华德·罗杰斯说，我们应该让他们吃什么样的蛋糕？

Howard Rogers says, what kind of cakes should we let them eat?

但这是鲁索的台词。

But this is Russo's line.

鲁索想出了这句台词。

Russo came up with this line.

这个故事说，一位公主曾经说过，让他们吃蛋糕吧。

It says this story that a princess had once said, let them eat cake.

但他是在玛丽内特来法国之前就说这句话的。

But he said that before Marantoinette had even come to France.

所以她从未说过这句话。

So she never says that.

你喜欢她，对吧？

You like her, can't you?

她确实有个小农场，就在她的宫殿里，她会去那里假装自己是个挤奶女工之类的。

She does have this, like, little nice little farm in her in her palace where she goes and pretends to be a milkmaid and stuff.

但对于十八世纪的贵族来说，这完全是标准做法。

But that's absolutely standard for an eighteenth century aristocrat.

她的那个小农场并不比别人的更奢侈。

Her little farm is no more extravagant than anybody else's.

但我认为这有点不同，因为我觉得一位法国王后本应表现得更加正式、严肃，当然也要更顺从和谦卑。

I but I think it is I think it is slightly different because I think that, a French queen is expected to behave in a a kind of more formal, austere, certainly subordinate and submissive role.

而玛丽·安托瓦内特则深受情感崇拜的影响。

And Marie Antoinette is kind of very, very influenced by the cult of sensibility.

所以她非常迷恋卢梭的小说、理查森的作品，还有那一类的东西。

So she's hugely into, you know, Rousseau's novels and Richardson and all that kind of stuff.

但还有，汤姆，我认为女性、女王，这种现象在历史上太常见了。

But also, Tom, I think that women, queens, this you see this so often in history.

你看看亚历山德拉，俄国尼古拉二世的妻子就是如此。

You see it with, you know, Alexandra, with Nicholas the second's wife in Russia.

你再看看亨丽埃塔·玛丽亚，十七世纪三、四十年代英国查理一世的妻子也是如此。

You see it with Henrietta Maria, with Charles the first's wife in England in the sixteen thirties and forties.

很多时候，外国王后的形象就成了一个导火索，人们把各种情绪都投射到王后身上。

So often, the the figure of the foreign queen becomes this kind of lightning rod, and people project all this stuff onto the queen.

她是奥地利人，对吧？

Well, she's Austrian, isn't she?

而奥地利是世仇。

And the and and Austria is the hereditary enemy.

没错。

Exactly.

她是奥地利的荡妇。

She's the Austrian whore.

人们说她带来了日耳曼式的性习俗，其实指的是女同性恋，但这完全是虚构和捏造的。

And people say of her, you know, she's brought in these Germanic sexual practices by which they mean lesbianism, which is a complete myth and a complete invention.

但他们用这一点来攻击她。

But they use this as a stick with which to beat her.

所以我认为女性在法国大革命中普遍遭受了非常严酷的对待。

So I think women do get a, generally, a very rough ride in the French revolution.

对吧？

Right?

但所有她们都一样。

But but all of them.

就连路易十五的情妇杜巴利夫人，也被处决了。

So even, so so Madame du Barry, who was Louis the fifteenth's mistress, I mean, she gets guillotined.

玛丽·安托瓦内特，显而易见。

Marie Antoinette, obviously.

还有你提到的罗兰夫人。

And as you say, Madame Rolland.

是的。

Yeah.

而且她们都被指控有淫秽的性行为。

And all of them get accused of kind of obscene sexual practices.

确实如此。

They do.

而且我告诉你一件可怕的事。

And even I tell you a terrible thing.

玛丽安，他最好的朋友之一，叫帕塞斯特·隆博。

So Marines one of his best friend is one called the the Parcester Lombau

哦，是的。

Oh, yes.

对。

Yes.

在1792年9月的大屠杀期间。

In the September massacres in sept seventeen ninety two.

那是法国正在打仗失利的时候。

So this is when France is is is losing the war.

他们认为，普鲁士人随时都会抵达巴黎。

They think, the Prussians are gonna arrive at any moment in Paris.

那我们该怎么办？

So what should we do?

我知道我们要做什么。

I I know what we'll do.

我们会去监狱里把所有人杀掉。

We'll go through the prisons and kill everybody.

但是，多米尼克，这不正是议会内部有些人说的‘让我们释放’的一个例子吗？

But but, Dominic, that's an example, isn't it, of of basically people within the the convention saying, let's unleash

是的。

Yeah.

释放地狱。

Unleash hell.

让我们释放，是的。

Let's unleash Yeah.

不。

No.

没错。

Exactly.

他们闯入监狱，把王室成员拖到兰伯特那里，关于这件事有多种不同说法。

And they go through, and they drag out their princesses to Lambert, and there are various different accounts.

其中一些可能被夸大了。

Some of them may be sensationalized.

但毫无疑问，她被残忍地杀害了。

But there's no doubt she was hideously murdered.

她被割了舌头，身体被残害。

She's mute she's mutilated.

她的头被砍了下来。

Her head is cut off.

他们把她的头带到理发店，让理发师为她整理头发。

They take her head to a barber's and have the barber do the hair.

他们把头颅带到巴黎的各个咖啡馆展示，然后插在长矛上，悬挂在玛丽·安托瓦内特窗户外面。

They take the head around Paris, kind of cafes, then they stick it on a spike and they hoist it outside Mari Antoinette's window.

看看我们对你朋友做了什么——据说你一直和她有同性恋关系。

This look at what we've done to your friend who you are supposedly, have been having a lesbian affair with.

而且，我认为任何人听到这个故事都会感觉到其中有一种指控，一种对男性不会有的、极其不愉快的指控。

And and the you I don't think anyone can hear this story without thinking there is a charge here, a really unpleasant charge that there wouldn't be with a man.

当然，被关押在巴士底狱的人之一是萨尔侯爵，尽管他在监狱被攻陷前几天就被转移了。

And, of course, one of the people who, was kept in the Bastille, although he's moved a few days before it gets stormed, is the Marquis de Sard.

是的。

And Yeah.

这一切背后都有一种背景，再次强化了贵族是恶魔式变态者的观念。

There is a kind of background to all of this, which again feeds into the idea of the aristocrat as as kind of a demonic pervert.

你知道，还有《危险的关系》之类的事件。

It's you know, there's also dangerous liaisons at Le Clot and everything.

这种将贵族描绘成策划阴谋、以施虐和性变态为乐的形象，是当时构成宣传与舆论氛围的核心部分之一。

This this image of scheming aristocrats who view torture and sexual sadism as a source of pleasure is is a is a really powerful part of the kind of swirl of of attitudes and assumptions that that is making up the the the propaganda and the the climate of opinion at the time.

汤姆，难道没有这种情况吗？那些在革命最血腥阶段——即1793到1794年的恐怖时期——主导革命的人，都是年轻人，非常

Isn't there a case, Tom, that the people who are directing the the revolution in its most in its bloodiest phase, in the phase known as the terror, seventeen ninety three to four, These are young men, very

年轻人。

young men.

我的意思是，他们当中几乎没有人

I mean, they're in the there are virtually none who

超过三十五岁。

are older than their mid thirties.

所以他们都是非常年轻的男人。

So they're very young men.

他们熬夜到很晚。

They're staying up late.

他们喝得酩酊大醉。

They're tanked up on wine.

你知道，周围根本没有女人。

They you know, there aren't any women around.

那里充满了大量汹涌而无方向的能量，这种能量以极其暴力的方式表现出来——这些家伙本该找个好女人安定下来的。

And there's a there's a lot of kind of surging, unfocused energy there, which is expressing itself in exceedingly violent you know, these are blokes who would be better off settling down with a nice woman.

这就是我对法国大革命的看法。

That's my that's my, take on the French revolution.

说到无方向的能量，我想我们是不是该在这里休息一下。

Well, talking of unfocused energy, I wonder whether we shouldn't perhaps just take a break here.

喘口气。

Draw our breath.

等我们回来时，或许可以聚焦于恐怖时期、圣茹斯特和罗伯斯庇尔，这显然是英国研究法国大革命的学生们最关注的。

And and when we come back, perhaps, focus on the terror and Saint Juste and Robespierre, which obviously for English students of the French Revolution is always the kind

最戏剧性的一部分，我会非常乐意讨论。

of the most dramatic and I will love that.

关于

Of

它。

it.

好的。

Okay.

就这么办。

Let's do that.

你好。

Hello.

欢迎回到《历史其余部分》。

Welcome back to, The Rest is History.

我们正在讨论法国大革命，现在即将进入恐怖时期，当然，对于狄更斯的粉丝、卡莱尔的粉丝、《 Carry On》电影的粉丝来说，

We are talking about the French Revolution, and we have we're arriving at, the terror, which, of course, for, fans of Dickens, fans of Carlyle, fans of the Carry On films,

这才是重点。

is what it's all about.

卡莱尔和《 Carry On》电影。

Carlyle and the Carry On films.

你很少会听到把这两者放在一起说。

You don't often hear them in the same breath.

我们已经谈到了那些著名的女性被处决的事情，是的。

We've we've, we've talked about, the execution of of the famous women Yeah.

在法国大革命中，玛丽·安托瓦内特当然是最著名的那位。

In the French Revolution, of whom Marie Antoinette, of course, is the most famous.

我们或许应该看一看路易十六。

We should probably look at Louis the sixteenth.

因为从某种意义上说，他的处决移除了支撑法国政府数个世纪的支柱。

Because in a sense, his execution kind of removes the prop that has held up the entire system of French government for centuries and centuries and centuries.

从某种意义上说，正是君主制的废除才让一切变得开放，不是吗？

And in a sense, it's the removal of the monarchy that then leaves everything open, isn't it?

是的。

Yeah.

确实如此。

It is.

我认为一旦君主制被废除，焦点就会转向——我们其实还没怎么讨论过‘国家’这个概念，而我认为正是法国大革命真正创造了‘国家’这一理念。

And I think once you once you get the removal of the monarchy, then the focus turns to I mean, one thing we haven't really talked about is the nation, the idea of the nation, which I think is really created by the French Revolution.

所以，民族的概念体现在《人权宣言》中。

So the nation is in the kind of the declaration of the rights of man.

嗯，这个想法在网球场宣誓中不就已经存在了吗？

Well, it's there in the in the in the oath of of in the the tennis court, isn't it?

我的意思是，建立一个代表民族的国民议会这一理念本身

I mean, the very idea of setting up a national an assembly for the nation

没错。

Exactly.

于是，主权不再属于

Then the nation becomes sovereign, not

国王。

the king.

我不想给你太多提示，但很明显，这种将民族视为神圣的理念。

I don't wanna give you a kind of too much of a gift, but, obviously, this idea of the nation being sacred.

而且，一旦你有了这种观念，就不会轻易放弃。

And and once you've Not gonna take that.

一旦把国王从这个等式中移除，国家——这个庞大而模糊的理想——就成为了焦点。

And once you've taken the king out of the equation, then the nation, which is this big sort of amorphous ideal, becomes the focus.

我认为你说得对，战争进行时也会发生这种情况。

And I think you're right that, you know, that also happens when the war is going on.

因此，法国正遭受围攻。

So France is under siege.

在那时，你会看到一种强烈的激进化，我认为是这样。

And at that point, there is this you you get this intense radicalization, I think.

这是在寻找内部的敌人，来解释为什么事情会变得如此糟糕，寻找替罪羊。

It's the search for enemies within to explain why things are going the scapegoats.

比如罗伯斯庇尔，他说过，他反对死刑。

So Rob Spear, for example, he's he says, you know, he was against the death penalty.

你能相信吗？在恐怖统治之前，罗伯斯庇尔最著名的事迹之一就是他反对死刑。

Would you believe Rob Spear before the terror is one of his most famous things was he was he was against capital punishment.

他这么想，而医生吉约坦也是这样。

He thought And so was so was doctor guillotine.

是的

Yeah.

医生，他其实并没有发明断头台。

Doctor well, he just he didn't invent the guillotine.

他只是希望用它，因为他觉得这样更干净。

He just wants them to do it because he thinks it's cleaner.

但他根本不想处决任何人。

And But he didn't want executions at all.

但他认为，如果我们非得处决，那还不如用一种……是的。

But he thought that it that if we gotta have them, we might as well have a yeah.

那么，但这个人基本上就是带他去网球厅的那个人，对吧？

So what but this is basically and he's the guy who who takes him into who leads him into the tennis Is he?

我不知道。

I I did not know.

这是个很好的事实。

That is a good fact.

所以一切都对得上。

So it's everything fits together.

这真是个伟大的阴谋。

It's a great conspiracy.

对吧？

Right?

是共济会吧？

It's freemason, isn't it?

是的。

Yes.

所以，无论如何，罗布·斯皮尔说，路易必须死，国家才能活。

So, anyway, Rob Spear, he basically says Louis must die so that the nation can live.

所以，你知道，这几乎像是一种伟大的牺牲时刻。

So, you know, there's almost this sort of great sacrificial moment.

但一旦你牺牲了一个人，情况却没好转，那你可能就需要再牺牲更多人。

But once you've sacrificed one person and it's not working out, then you maybe need to sacrifice some more.

我认为这就是会发生的情况。

And I think this is what happens.

他们只是不断把人送进断头台，如果断头台能成为一种机制，而事情又不顺利的话。

They just start feeding people into the more of the kind of of the guillotine, if the guillotine can be a more, and things don't go well.

所以，比如罗伯斯庇尔，他认为，我们需要一个纯洁而有德行的共和国，因此我们必须不断清除人，直到找到那些真正该清除的人。

And so Robespierre, for example, he thinks, you know, we want a pure virtuous republic in France, and so we just need to keep getting rid of people until we till we find them.

嗯，有一幅著名的漫画，描绘了罗伯斯庇尔身后是断头台，而他正在处决行刑者。

Well, there's that famous cartoon, isn't there, of of of Rosepierre with guillotines in the background, and he is executing the executioner.

他把法国的每个人都处决了。

And everybody every he's executed everybody else in France.

是的。

Yes.

法国的最后一个人。

The last person in France.

我的意思是，这正是法国大革命真正令人久久难忘的原因。

I mean, this is exactly so I think this is the thing about the French Revolution that actually makes it linger in the imagination.

并不是因为他们只是在处决贵族和他们的敌人，因为那还算可以理解。

It's not that they are just executing aristocrats and their enemies because that's kind of understandable.

而是他们在互相处决。

It's that they're executing each other.

所以这个

So the the

而且他们其实并没有在处决贵族，对吧？

And they're not really executing aristocrats, are they?

我的意思是，没有，确实没有。

I mean, they're not No.

我的意思是，我有

Mean, I have

很多贵族已经逃跑了。

loads of the aristocrats have fled.

他们已经走了。

They've gone.

但确实还有一些贵族留在周围。

But but there are aristocrats who hang around.

而且你知道，嗯，这里有个来自布雷希特·萨瓦尔科的绝佳问题：谁是菲利普·平等最接近的现代对应人物？为什么是哈里王子？

And, you know, that's well, if you I mean, actually, here here's a great question from Brecht Savalkor who asks, who is the closest modern equivalent of Philippe Egalite, and why is it prince Harry?

所以菲利普·平等，

So Philippe Egalite,

也就是奥尔良公爵，那位

who formed the duke of Orleans, the the

路易十六自己的堂兄，他实际上投了票。

cousin of of of Louis the sixteenth himself, who actually votes.

我的意思是，他本人在路易十六的审判中投票支持将他送上断头台。

I mean, he's he's he's a he's a citizen in the in in in the trial of Louis and votes to have him guillotine.

所以他是个糟糕的人，他就是哈里王子。

So he is a terrible man, and he is prince Harry.

他投票支持处决自己的堂兄，而且比共和派还要更像共和派。

He, he votes for his own cousin's execution, and he's kind of more republican than the republicans.

我的意思是，这就是他的风格。

I mean, that's his thing.

他改了自己的名字。

He changes his name.

想象一下改名字。

Imagine changing your name.

我的意思是，我们生活在一个国家里。

I mean, we live in a country do.

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，我们现在生活在一个国家，不是吗？伯明翰现在不是有这种平等、多元化的做法吗？

Well, we live in a country that now has we don't don't we now have in Birmingham, isn't there sort of equality close diversity way and all this kind of thing?

但用不了多久，哈里王子就会给自己改名叫‘仁慈’之类的名字，对吧？

But but but it's It's only a of time before prince Harry renames himself kindness or something, isn't it?

但另一方面，我的意思是，我觉得我们有点苛刻了，因为你把一切都描绘成了血腥和虚伪。

But also in this, I mean, you know, we we I think we're being slightly harsh because you you were casting it all as kind of blood blood and hypocrisy.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这里也有非常积极的理想，或许体现在人们对罗马历史英雄主义的向往上。

I mean, there there are also hugely positive ideals here, perhaps exemplified by the way in which people are looking to the heroism of the Roman past.

如果你想走

If you wanna go down

这条路，我的意思是，我

that road, I mean, I

你显然愿意。

you clearly do.

那些愿意为国家、为祖国、为祖国牺牲自我的英雄人物。

Heroic figures who, are ready to sacrifice themselves for for the for the nation, for the patria, for la patri.

是的。

Yeah.

觉得这很崇高吗？

Find that noble?

我认为圣鞠斯特显然既是核心人物又是最令人恐惧的，是的。

I I think that that that both Saint Juste, who is clearly codest and most terrifying Yeah.

在所有法国革命者中，他简直有种摇滚明星般的魅力。

Of of all the French revolutions, I mean, kind of rock star glamour to him.

不过，当这一切爆发时，他不是才二十出头吗？

Well, he's in his very early twenties, isn't he, when it all kicks off?

我的意思是，他是个非常年轻的小伙子。

I mean, he's a very young man.

但当所有雅各宾派声称他们受美德驱动时，他们确实是被美德驱动的。

But all the Jacobins are when they say that they are motivated by virtue, they are motivated by virtue.

我的意思是，我

I mean, I

但正是这一点让他们如此可怕，汤姆。

But that's what makes them terrifying, Tom.

因为他们还不够腐败。

That they're not, you know, they're not corrupt enough.

他们不是我今天早上在知道我们要上这个播客时，正在思考罗布·斯皮尔的事情。

That they're not I I was thinking about this with Rob Spear when, this morning when I knew we were gonna be in the the podcast.

我在想，究竟是什么让他成为一个如此令人不安的人物，我认为他确实是。

I was thinking, what is it about him that makes him such a disturbing figure, which I think he is?

因为他不是弗拉基米尔·普京。

And it is that he's not Vladimir Putin.

他不是那种

He's not not a sort

无可救药的。

of incorruptible.

冷血的专制者。

A cold blooded autocrat.

他是一个冷血的、高尚的行善者。

He's a cold blooded, high minded do gooder.

而我认为，人们之所以对他如此有共鸣，是因为他是这样一个典型例子：有人根本上说，我要改造社会。

And that's what I think people find so resonant about him, that he is the paradigmatic example of what happens when you have somebody who basically says, I'm gonna fix society.

我要

I'm gonna

清理恐怖分子，多米尼克。

clean Terror, Dominic.

恐怖不过是迅速、严厉、不容变通的正义。

Terror is nothing but prompt, severe, inflexible justice.

因此，它是美德的体现。

It is therefore an emanation of virtue.

那是罗伯斯庇尔吗？

Is that Robespierre?

那是罗伯斯庇尔。

That's Robespierre.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

他确实在推动极限，探索你能多么激进地推翻你眼中腐败与邪恶的东西，又多么轻易地用新事物取而代之。

He is, I mean, he is pushing to the limits a sense of how radically can you pull down what you see as being corrupt and evil, and how readily can you put something in its place.

这对国家信托基金来说是个教训。

There's a lesson here for the, National Trust.

我的意思是，因为我们正在讨论文化战争，某种程度上，所有那些提醒、提醒……

Well, I mean, it's in because we were talking about culture wars, I mean, in a sense, there is a there is a kind of all that, you know, putting reminding

我为那句话向人们致歉。

people myself for that remark.

提醒人们，伟大的建筑，你知道，没有任何一座文明的纪念碑不是同时也是一座野蛮的纪念碑。

Reminding people that, great buildings, you know, that there is there is no monument of civilization that is not also a monument of barbarism.

是的。

Yeah.

就是这个概念。

That that that concept.

我的意思是，当你废除君主制时，不仅仅是因为君主本人无能，而是因为君主制本身就是一个野蛮的迷信与压迫的遗产，那你必须全力以赴，不仅针对国王，还要针对整个制度。

I mean, the moment you you get rid of the mon you you abolish the monarchy, not just because the monarch is inadequate, but because the very institution of monarchy is a a a barbarous legacy of superstition and oppression, then you have to you you you have to go flat out not just against the king, against the entire institution.

所以，是的。

So Yeah.

革命者前往圣但尼，那是法国王室的类似威斯敏斯特教堂的地方。

Revolutionaries head off to Saint Denis, which was the kind of Westminster Abbey of French royalty.

他们挖出所有国王和王后的遗体，把它们排成一排埋进深坑，并将它们溶解。

And they dig up all the bodies of the kings and queens and put them in a line pit and dissolve them.

我认为唯一逃脱的是亨利。

And I think the only one that got away was Henry

对。

Right.

我在想，他们保留了他的

I wonder So they kept his

头颅，因为我觉得他有点像文化英雄。

head because I think he was a bit of a culture hero.

而另一个，不知为何，路易十四的心脏被保存了下来。

And the only other one, for some reason, the heart of Louis XIV was preserved.

它被带到了英格兰，被威斯敏斯特大教堂的教长威廉·巴克兰吃掉了，他同时也是第一只恐龙的命名者。

And it got taken to England, where it got eaten by William Buckland, who was the dean of Westminster, who also named the first dinosaur.

他喜欢吃任何他能吃到的东西。

And he liked to eat everything he could.

他发现了这颗心脏，并被人告知这是法国国王的心脏。

And he came across this, and he got told it's the heart of a French king.

于是他把它吃掉了。

And he ate it.

我认为，这是我们在整个对话中听过的最棒的事实。

That's that's that's the best fact, I think, we've ever had on the rest of the session.

是的。

Yeah.

不客气。

Well, you're welcome.

不客气。

You're welcome.

这有点偏离主题了。

That is slightly diverting.

但不管怎样，当路易……总之，目的是羞辱并贬低路易本人的形象。

But, anyway, so so so when Lou so so there's a a an aim to humiliate and downgrade the figure of Louis himself.

他在断头台上被剃了头。

So he gets shorn on the scaffolding.

他被对待得和普通人一模一样。

He gets treated just like anyone else.

他的遗体被带走，放进一个简陋的棺材里。

His body gets taken away, put in a rough coffin.

同样，人们还在上面撒上石灰，确保他的遗骸一丝不剩。

Again, the kind of lime gets put on it so that none of his remains will be left.

国王们的纪念物也遭遇了同样的命运。

The same happens to the memorials of the kings.

所有的雕像都被推倒了。

All the statues get pulled down.

但同样的过程也发生在教会身上，教会同样被视为封建主义和迷信的堡垒。

But you also have the same process happening with the church, which likewise is seen as a bastion of feudalism and superstition.

这就像是修道院解散的革命版。

So kind of a kind of, revolutionary equivalent of the dissolution of the monasteries.

这正是如此，不是吗？

It's exactly that, isn't it?

但这也是汤姆，这种对理性主义和统一性的执着，不是吗？

But it's also it's also, Tom, this this obsession with rationalism and uniformity, isn't it?

因为这不仅仅是他们做了这些事。

Because it's not just that they do all that.

他们还在更改日历，你知道的，试图改用

They're renaming the changing the calendar, you know, moving to sort of don't they try to move to

十天一周的制度？

a ten day week?

还有公制系统。

But also the metric system.

公制系统，而这

The metric system Which, of

当然，你也可以将其视为最持久的立法成果之一。

course, again, you could view as as being perhaps the most enduring act of legislation passed by.

我认为你

I think it pro you

我确实认为你可以这么论证。

I think you can definitely argue that.

我认为公制系统、新命名的月份——显然这些都没能流行起来，比如热月、葡月、雾月之类的。

I think the metric system, the new names for all the months, obviously, which don't catch on the kind of, Termidor and, Prerial and Brumare and all that sort of thing.

这基本上是从零年开始重塑世界。

So it's basically this remaking the world from year zero.

我的意思是，革命的第一年、第二年。

I mean, obviously, year one of the revolution, year two of the revolution.

而且，我很佩服你一直克制着没提我有。

And of and I'm you've shown great self restraint in not mentioning I have.

罗伯知道我们要去哪。

Rob's you know where we're going.

罗伯是那个至高无上的存在。

Rob's Baron, the the supreme being.

我知道。

I do.

我确实一直极力克制自己，没有引用恩斯特·布洛赫对法国大革命的著名评论——那是最典型的基督教事件，因为它唤起了各种关于全新开始的基督教理念。

Well, I I've I've hugely resisted the temptation to quote Ernst Bloch's famous comment on the French Revolution that it is the Christian event par excellence because it is invoking all kinds of Christian ideas of of, yeah, new beginnings.

所以是的。

So Yeah.

我们是以基督降生来纪年的。

Just we date our our years from the from the incarnation.

法国革命者希望将他们的革命塑造为一种具有类似史诗般重要意义的事件。

The French revolutionaries wanted to cast their revolution as an event of a kind of simica similar epical significance.

他们对末日审判、卑微者居上、尊贵者居下的态度。

And their attitude towards kind of, you know, an apocalyptic day of judgment, the last being first, the first being last.

所有这些都写在里面了。

It's all written in there.

但你说得对，本质上，罗塞皮埃尔想要做的就是彻底信奉理性作为至高无上的存在。

But you're right that essentially what Rosepierre wanted to do was to absolutely commit to the idea of reason as being the supreme the supreme being.

于是，巴黎圣母院被改造成供奉至高存在的圣地。

And so Notre Dame is converted into a shrine for the supreme being.

这有点像阿肯那顿，我想。

And it's a bit like kind of Akhenaten, I guess.

我的意思是，关键在于

I mean, that's the thing that

让人心有所感。

makes the mind feel.

这个比喻很恰当。

That's a good comparison.

推倒传统诸神的雕像，取而代之的是这种相当冷漠的神祇，人们在情感上无法与之产生共鸣。

Pulling down the statues of the traditional gods and enshrining this rather kind of bloodless deity in their place that that people emotionally couldn't connect with.

多米尼克，这个是给你的。

And, Dominic, this is one for you.

作为托尔金的粉丝，你知道罗塞皮埃尔心目中至高存在的形象是什么吗？

As as a Tolkien fan, do you know what the the image the favored image that, that Rosepierre had for the supreme being?

是一棵树吗？

Is it a tree?

不是。

No.

是一个无身体的眼睛。

It's a disembodied eye.

哦，天哪。

Oh, wow.

所以它就是字面意义上的那样。

So it's literally like that.

但这还挺像共济会的风格，不是吗？

But that's quite a sort of Freemasonish thing, isn't it?

是的。

Yes.

确实是。

It is.

某种程度上在十八世纪潜伏着。

Sort of lurking around in the eighteenth century.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

艺术的象征。

The the symbol of the art.

我的意思是，那个那个那个

I mean, that that that

至高存在的节日，我记得我们上小学大约12岁的时候学过法国大革命，当时让我印象最深的就是，它发生在恐怖统治的中期。

that festival of the supreme being, I can remember, we did the French Revolution at school when I was about 12, and that was the thing that stuck in my mind that it happens in the middle of the terror.

所以他们基本上休息一下。

So they basically take a break.

罗伯斯庇尔正在签署数百份死刑判决。

Robespierre is signing hundreds of death sentences.

我认为他签了大约六百份，五到六百之间。

I think he signed something like 600, between five and six hundred.

而他基本上在这一切中间抽出一天，去主持这个为某种略显虚构的神明举办的庆典，他穿着一件自己非常自豪的全新天蓝色外套，还系着一条绶带。

And he basically takes a day off in the middle of this to go and inaugurate this festival of this sort of slightly made up god in which he's wearing this special new sky blue coat that he's very proud of, and he's got a sash.

实际上，他的许多同事都在嘲笑他，私下里窃窃私语。

And, actually, a lot of his colleagues are laughing at him, and they're they're sort of muttering behind their hands at him.

你知道，他真的很享受这一切。

You know, this, you know, he's loving this.

他有点疯了。

He's gone a bit mad.

这是一个关键时刻，尽管这是他的巅峰时刻，但气氛却开始悄然从他身边溜走，因为在他看来，他显得有些滑稽可笑。

And it's one of those moments where, actually, although it's his apotheosis, the the mood is kind of slipping away from him a bit there because he looks ridiculous to some of the others.

他们并不认同这一点。

They don't go along with that.

我不确定，我的意思是，我觉得背后潜藏的是一种类似《启示录》的理念——末日来临，绵羊与山羊被分开，充满血腥的盛大场面，但同时也伴随着新耶路撒冷的建造。

I'm not sure that I mean, I I think that kind of lurking behind it is is and forgive me for saying this, but it's the kind of the the the book of Revelation, the idea that an end time has come where sheep and the goats are being divided, great spectacles of blood, but also of of building a new Jerusalem.

这本质上就是

And that's essentially what

是的。

Yeah.

从世俗的、理性的角度来看，罗伯斯庇尔试图做的正是这件事。

In in secular terms, in rational terms, Rosepierre is trying to do.

但汤姆，他这样做时，你也不能忽视。

But he's also doing it, though, Tom, at a time when you can't you can't forget.

他们是在普鲁士人几乎兵临城下的时候这么做的。

They're doing it at a time when the Prussians are almost at the gates.

你知道，他们正越来越近。

You know, they're coming closer all the time.

所以，不是的。

So, no.

他不仅仅认为自己在建造新耶路撒冷，他还觉得身边的人——他认为许多同事实际上是为威廉·皮特工作的英国间谍。

It's not just that he thinks he's building new Jerusalem, but he thinks that the people who surround him so he thinks a lot of his colleagues are actually secret British agents who are working for William Pitt.

因此，这种奇怪的偏执不仅仅是宗教性的，他们也知道这种偏执。

So there's this sort of weird paranoia that's not just a kind of religious paranoia, but it's also they know that paranoia.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

他们呢，他们……

They well, they

他们知道有成千上万的人正要来杀他们，你知道的，是的。

know that there are lots of thousands of men out to kill them, you know Yeah.

几百英里之外。

A couple of 100 miles away.

是的。

Yeah.

好吧。

Well, okay.

这是来自费加尔·奥谢亚的一个问题：为什么罗伯斯庇尔不像斯大林那样能掌控他的清洗运动？

Well, here's a question from Fergal O'Shea, who asked why did Rosepierre, unlike Stalin, lose control of his purge?

左右两派都被清洗了：左派有海bert、卡米耶夫、西涅维夫，右派有巴东、布哈林，但罗伯斯庇尔自己最终也被清洗了。

Both purge left, Hebert, Kaminev, Synoviev, and right, Banton, Bukharian, but Rosepierre ended up purged himself.

哦，斯大林比罗伯斯庇尔是强大得多的政治人物。

Oh, Stalin is a much more sort of potent political figure than Rob Spierre is.

我的意思是，斯大林每一步都冷酷缜密地计划，非常务实，清楚自己在做什么。

I mean, Stalin plans everything very cold bloodedly and is very pragmatic and knows exactly what he's doing.

我认为罗伯斯庇尔并不完全知道自己在做什么。

Rob Spierre, I don't think quite knows what he's doing.

罗伯斯庇尔被一种关于美德的理念所笼罩。

Rob Spear is suffused with this idea of of virtue.

但罗·斯皮尔还犯了一系列可怕的战术错误。

But, also, Rob Spear makes a series of hideous tactical mistakes.

就在他被赶下台之前，他做了这么一件事：他去参加了大会。

So he does this thing just before he's they get rid of him, where he basically goes to the convention.

他发表了一篇演讲，说要镇压他新一批的敌人，但却没说清楚这些人是谁。

He gives a speech saying he's he's gonna clamp down on his new set of enemies, but he doesn't say who they are.

于是每个人都想：会不会是我？

So everybody thinks, well, is it me?

可能是我。

Could be me.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得我们应该把他除掉，因为很可能下一个就是我。

I think we should get rid of him because it's probably gonna be me.

而且这简直太疯狂了，我的意思是，我认为最终罗布·斯皮尔已经失去了那些与他一起每天工作二十三小时的人的信任，你知道，这些人在五年前还只是地方律师，却突然面对经济崩溃、国家革命，全国大部分地区都起来反抗他们。

And and that's just a mad I mean, I think at the end, Rob Spear was if I mean, he he'd lost these are people he's working, you know, twenty three hour days or something, and they they've completely lot that that these are guys who, five years earlier, were just provincial lawyers who are suddenly faced with this collapsing economy, this country in revolution, large parts of the country rising up against them.

他试图引入一种新的宗教。

He's trying to bring in a new religion.

他试图更改日历名称。

He's trying to rename the calendar.

他试图控制物价、发动战争，所有这一切都太过分了。

He's trying to control prices and fight a war, and it's all just too much.

但正如大卫·尼尔森提醒我们的那样，酒精在革命中的作用是否至关重要？不仅在民众中，也在公共安全委员会内部？

But as David Nielsen reminds us with his comment, could the role of alcohol be said to be critical in the revolution, not simply among the people, but in the committee of public safety?

我听说他们的酒水账单惊人地高。

I've heard their bar bill was shocking.

他们全都喝得烂醉如泥，我的意思是，醉得不成样子。

So they're they're all off their faces on I mean, they're pissed off their heads.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得他们可能确实是这样。

I think they probably I think they probably are.

不过，有一个地方很奇怪。

Although the the one one of the it's weird.

所以丹东是最典型的美食家。

So Danton is the most is the sort of the the most sort of the the biggest sort of gourmand.

他吃喝的量，简直是为了整个法国。

He eats and drinks, you know, for France.

嗯，他在电影中由热拉尔·德帕迪约饰演

Well, he's played by Gerard Depardieu in

那部伟大的电影。

the great film.

演得非常出色。

Brilliantly.

是的。

Yes.

由热拉尔·德帕迪约饰演。

By Gerard Depardieu.

有一个场景是扮演。

And there's a scene where to play.

他和罗伯斯庇尔一起去吃饭，那是一顿和解餐，罗伯斯庇尔对他狼吞虎咽的样子感到震惊。

Where he and Robespierre go for a meal, so reconciliation meal, and and Robespierre is horrified by Danton stuffing himself

是的。

Yes.

吃着派和牡蛎之类的东西。

With pies and oysters or something.

而丹东则说‘吃吧，尽情吃吧’，试图鼓励他多吃点。

And and Danton is saying Chop is saying mange, Maxi, mange, trying to encourage him to to eat.

但实际上，那种山岳派的人——

And Rob won't do it, but in reality, the the sort of the the Montagnard.

所以罗伯斯庇尔和他的派系把丹东的暴饮暴食当作把柄。

So Rob Spear and his crowd held Danton's overeating against him.

他们认为这是反革命的，是的。

They thought it was counter revolutionary and Yes.

不爱国，而且是他为威廉·皮特效力的迹象。

Unpatriotic and a sign of his sort of that he must be working for William Pitt.

是的。

Yes.

他还在往嘴里塞英国牛肉，是的。

He was shoveling him British beef Yeah.

嗯，那是另外一回事。

Well the on the side.

对。

Yeah.

他们不是叫山岳派吗？

And they're called the mountain, aren't they?

因为他们坐在最高的长椅上。

Because they're they're on the the the top Top benches.

座位，顶层的长椅。

Of seats, the top benches.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我总是不信任那些在讲堂顶层就座的人，因为我觉得他们可能有着危险的革命思想，令人恐惧。

So the I always distrust people who sit at the top in a lecture theater because I think they probably have dangerously Revolutionary terrifying.

它就在

It's on

你的头上。

your head.

没错。

Exactly.

好的。

Okay.

那么，关于罗什皮埃尔是如何形成的这个故事，我的意思是，这真是个可怕的故事，不是吗？

So so, the story of how Rochepierre forms, I mean, it's a horrible one, isn't it?

因为这

Because it

涉及一个吊着的下巴。

involves a hanging jaw.

所以他的下巴，是的。

So his jaw yeah.

《可怕的历史》对此有很多有趣的演绎。

That's Horrible Histories has a lot of fun with this.

于是他们反叛了罗伯斯庇尔。

So they turn against Robespierre.

他发表了一次灾难性的演讲。

He gives this disastrous speech.

他在国民公会上遭到嘘声。

He's heckled in the convention.

许多其他议员都如此，这不仅仅是右翼的反应。

A lot of the other deputies and it's not just a right wing reaction.

左派有很多人。

There's a lot of people on the left.

实际上有一些人比他更热衷于恐怖统治，他们觉得他……你知道的，我得在他害我之前先除掉他。

There are actually people who are bigger on the terror than he is, who think he's you know, he's I've gotta get get him before he gets me.

所以这就形成了一种对他倒戈的态势。

So there's this sort of turn against him.

他们前去逮捕他。

They go to arrest him.

他决定要动手，但他这辈子从来没碰过枪。

He he decides he's gonna he's never used a gun before in his life.

我的意思是，他本质上就是一个典型的书呆子型人物。

I mean, he's basically you know, he's such a kind of guardian reading type.

他从未接触过任何火器。

He's never handled a a firearm.

他确实拿了枪，但他根本不知道该怎么用。

He does but he's he doesn't know what he's doing.

他试图爆头自杀。

He tries to blow his head off.

具体情况不太清楚，但他基本上把半边下巴炸飞了，那部分还挂着。

He kind of it's unclear what happens, but he basically blows half his jaw off, and it's hanging.

必须用绷带包扎起来。

It has to be bandaged on.

当他们带他去斩首时，行刑者扯下绷带，他的下巴随之脱落，发出一声可怕的野兽般的惨叫，然后才被斩首，至此他彻底完了。

And so that when they take him to be beheaded, the executioner pulls off the bandage and his jaw kind of falls off and he gives this terrible animal shriek before they behead him, and then they bed him, and then that's the end of him.

但你知道吗，汤姆，奇怪的是，在整个二十世纪，法国大革命历史研究的主流——索邦大学——一直由罗伯斯庇尔的拥趸占据。

But you know the weird thing, Tom, is that for most of the twentieth century, the the, you know, the the main chair in French Revolution history, the Sorbonne, was occupied by people who were Rob Spear fans.

因此，二十世纪的法国史学，很多都是在为罗伯斯庇尔、雅各宾派和恐怖统治辩护。

So French historiography in the twentieth century, a lot of it was a kind of defense of Rob Spier and the Jacobin and the and the terror.

直到二十世纪八十年代，人们才真正开始反驳这种观点，认为也许恐怖统治其实是一场灾难。

And, actually, it was only in the nineteen eighties that people really started to fight against that and say, well, actually, maybe the terror was a bad business.

嗯，其实有

Well, there's

这里还有一个来自切特·阿奇博尔德的问题，哦，是的。

another question here from, Chet Archbold who has Oh, yes.

他把问题发给了切特。

Sent his question to Chet.

你是否认同西蒙·沙玛的观点，即暴力从革命一开始就根植其中？

Do you make of the view, which I guess is the Simon Sharma view, that the violence was inherent to the revolution right from the beginning?

所以这是一个关键问题，对吧？

So that's a key question, isn't it, really?

是的。

Yeah.

它是否注定会以断头台收场？

Was it always going to be was it always going to end up with guillotines?

这就像你的撒切尔夫人对密特朗的问题，不是吗？

This is your Margaret Thatcher versus Francois Mitterrand question, isn't it?

我想我们之前已经讨论过这个了

So I thought we talked about this in a previous

一集里提到，当他们举办大型

episode about how when they have the big

二百周年纪念时，其他人都来谈论人权。

spent bicentenary, everybody everybody else turns up and talks about human rights.

而她出席时，她有没有送给密特朗一本皮革装订的《双城记》？

And and she turns up and she gives Mitterrand did she give him a leather bound copy of a tale of two cities?

是的。

Yes.

她确实送了。

She did.

她确实送了。

She did.

但你知道，密特朗在1989年对这场革命的评价是，他钦佩它，因为它仍然令人畏惧。

But, you know, equally, what what Mitterrand said about the revolution in in 1989 was that he he admired it because it was still feared.

哇。

Wow.

这就像你在谈论托尼·布莱尔一样。

That's like you talking about Tony Blair.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

我的意思是，但你知道，直到今天在法国政治中，由于1793年法律规定，法国人民不仅拥有权利，还有责任在……如果革命被歪曲时发动起义。

I mean, so But but but, you know and and still in French politics now, there because in 1793, it's legislated that the the French people have not just the right, but kind of the responsibility to launch insurrections if Yeah.

如果革命被歪曲的话。

If the revolution is being portrayed.

而且在黄背心运动中，人们仍然引用这一点作为他们行为的正当理由。

And you will still you know, in the giletion, people were were citing that as a justification for what they're doing.

在法国，人们对它的记忆完全不一样。

It's it's remembered completely differently in France.

奇怪的是，尽管它如此创伤深重，数十万甚至上百万人丧生，但法国人中支持法国大革命的人，比英国人还多。

Just weirdly, despite the fact that it was so traumatic and that so many tens and hundreds of thousands of people died, it's remembered, you know, there are more French revolution partisans in France than in than in Britain.

因此，在英国，人们倾向于强调其暴力一面。

So in Britain, the tendency has been to emphasize the violence.

西蒙·沙玛在他的著作《公民》中提到，法国人之所以憎恨大革命，原因之一是沙玛认为暴力是革命的驱动力。

And Simon Schama in his book Citizens, one reason a lot of people in France hated it was because Schama said violence was the motor of the revolution.

你知道，革命从第一天起就是暴力的。

You know, the revolution was violent from day one.

好的。

Okay.

我

I

我觉得他完全正确，而且切特·阿奇博尔德也是对的。

think I think he's completely right, and I think Chet Archbald is right.

所以攻占巴士底狱时，很多人死在那里，而巴士底狱的总督，其实只是一个完全无害的中层官员。

So the stormy of the Bastille you know, a lot of people die in the stormy of the Bastille, and the governor of The Bastille, who's basically it's completely inoffensive mid ranking officer

你是在为巴士底狱的总督辩护吗？

You're defending the governor of The Bastille?

什么？

What?

德洛里亚总督？

Governor Deloria?

他是个如此

Who's such a

反革命分子，多米尼克？

counter revolutionary, Dominic?

你真的觉得，当断头台在特拉法加广场设立时

You honestly, when the guillotine gets set up in Trafalgar Square

巴士底狱里只有七个人。

There are there are only seven people in the Bastille.

于是他们把他拖出来，所有人都在刺他、打他之类的。

So they drag him out, and everybody's, like, stabbing him and punching him and stuff.

他基本上被这帮暴民私刑处死，他反抗时踢了一名面包师的裆部，结果面包师捅死了他，接着一个屠夫拿刀把他的头锯了下来，人群都在欢呼雀跃。

And he's basically being lynched by this crowd, and he lashes out and he kicks a pastry cook in the groin, then the pastry cook stabs him to death, and and a butcher comes along and, like, uses a knife to sort of saw his head off, and the crowd are all cheering and whooping and stuff.

我的天，这真是激烈的政论啊，多米尼克。

I mean, robust political discourse, Dominic.

不管怎么说，你不会在北安普顿的街头看到这种事，汤姆，你心里清楚。

By any standards, you wouldn't see this in the streets of Northampton, Tom, and you know it.

也许在奇平诺顿会吧。

Well, chipping Norton perhaps.

好吧。

Okay.

那我再提一个反革命的问题，是这样的。

Well, here's here's another counterrevolutionary question Yeah.

从深思熟虑的旁观者来看，谁谁，我认为绝对是反革命的。

From thoughtfully detached, who who's, I think, is definitely counterrevolutionary.

革命的继承者们已竭尽全力将旺代事件从史书中抹去。

The inheritors of the revolution have done their best to wipe the events in the Vendee out of the record books.

针对旺代人的暴行及其随后被历史遗忘，是否揭示了法国革命事业的本质真相？

Do both the brutality of the sort against the Vendeans and their subsequent erasure from history reveal essential truths about the French revolutionary project?

旺代是一场在大西洋沿岸持续进行的血腥内战。

So the Vendee is this kind of murderous civil war that's going along on in the the Atlantic Seaboard.

是的。

Yes.

在西部战线，

In the Wester Front,

乡村地区的西部战线。

the rural The Wester Front.

天主教保皇派。

Catholic royalist.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

而镇压非常

And the the repression is very

非常残忍，这非常英国式。

very mean, it's it's Very British.

这几乎是种族灭绝。

It's basically near genocidal.

我的意思是，这一点毫无疑问。

I mean, there's no doubt about that.

我的意思是，对。

I mean Yeah.

试着找一个类比，汤姆，想想你钟爱的威尔特郡。

To try and think of an analogy, Tom, take your beloved Wiltshire.

我的意思是，想象一下，如果英国发生过类似的革命，然后伦敦派军队去镇压威尔特郡和多塞特郡。

I mean, imagine, you know, there would been some revolution like that in Britain, and that then London has sent out troops to go and pacify kinda Wiltshire and Dorset.

他们说，哦，这些人根本没真正加入这个计划，所以我觉得我们应该把他们全杀了。

And they said, oh, basically, they're not really signed up to the project, so I think we should just kill them all.

我的意思是，这实际上就是发生在内尔身上的事，对吧？

I mean, that's effectively what happens in Nerve, won't they?

所以人们至今还在争论死亡人数，但你谈论的是数十万人。

So the people still argue about the death toll, but you're talking about hundreds of thousands of people.

是的。

Yeah.

像南特这样的地方，人们遭受的是大规模溺亡。

And someone like Nantes, people are being I mean, they have mass drownings.

是的。

Yeah.

甚至都不是大规模枪击。

And the and the Not even mass shootings.

在法律上，不是吗？

In the law, don't they?

在法律上。

In the law.

是的。

Yeah.

所以把他们扔进去。

So drop them in.

我的意思是，这真是极其可怕的事情。

They're I mean, really horrific stuff.

而且，实际上，尽管人们总在谈论人权之类的东西，但如果你的人权理念建立在必须把大量的人关在笼子里淹死的基础上，那又怎么说呢？

And, actually, you know, for all the talk of the sort of the rights of man stuff I mean, if your rights of man stuff is is is predicated on the fact you're gonna have to drown a lot a lot of people in cages.

我的意思是

I mean

好的。

Okay.

但是，但是，罗什皮埃尔的倒台以及旺代地区的镇压。

But but but so Rosepierre's the fall of Rosepierre and the the the the crushing of of the Vendee.

我的意思是，这并不是革命进程的终结。

I mean, that's not the end of the revolutionary process.

所以，不。

So No.

它还在继续。

Keeps going.

我的意思是，在1795年，也就是罗什皮埃尔倒台后的第二年，有人开始谈论恢复君主制。

In I mean, in 1795, the so that's the year after the fall of Rosepierre, there is talk of restoring the monarchy.

他们确实这么做了。

Do they Yeah.

总是有保王党的阴谋。

They're always royalist plots.

是的。

Yeah.