49. 美食，美味的食物

你不能相信那些厨艺这么差的人。

You cannot trust people who cook as badly as that.

继芬兰之后，这是食物最差的国家——这是著名美食评论家雅克·希拉克的说法。

After Finland, it is the country with the worst food, the words of that notable culinary critic Jacques Chirac.

当然，希拉克先生并不是唯一这么认为的人。

Of course, monsieur Chirac's not exactly alone.

就连英国人自己也常说，英国菜是世界上最差的，这是乔治·奥威尔在为英国烹饪辩护时提到的。

It's commonly said even by the English themselves that English cooking is the worst in the world, and that's George Orwell in in defense of English cooking.

所以，汤姆·霍兰德和我来到《余下的都是历史》，不是为了埋葬英国烹饪，而是为了赞美它——至少我是这么希望的。

So Tom Holland and I have come to The Rest is History, not to bury English cooking, but to praise it, at least I hope so.

我们的嘉宾汤姆，你愿意介绍一下我们的嘉宾吗？

And our guest, Tom, well, would you like to introduce our guest?

我们的嘉宾是彭·沃格勒，她写了一本关于英国饮食全史的精彩著作。

Our guest is Pen Vogler, who has written the most sensational book on, the entire history of British food.

这本书名叫《狼吞虎咽》。

It's called scoff.

由于这本书讲的是英国，副标题是食物与阶级的历史。

And because it's about Britain, the subtitle is a history of food and class.

在英国，一切都关乎阶级。

Everything's about class

在英国。

in Britain.

英国的每一件事都关乎阶级。

Everything in Britain is about class.

这本书不仅是一场历史信息的盛宴，更是大量适合酒吧问答的冷知识宝库。

And it's an absolute feast, not just of historical information, but of facts for pub quizzes.

所以，多米尼克，我来考你几个问题，我知道你读过，因为你说过‘哦’。

So, Dominic, just to try a couple I know you've read it because it was Oh.

你之前提到过一些。

One of your Some time ago.

很多年前。

Years ago.

不是吗？

Wasn't it?

是的。

Yeah.

所以，是的。

So Yeah.

那么，佩恩在这里谈论的是什么？

So what is Penn talking about here?

1748年，法国政府以马铃薯会导致麻风病为由，禁止种植什么？

In 1748, the French government banned the cultivation of what on the grounds that they cause leprosy?

洋蓟？

Artichokes?

马铃薯。

Potatoes.

马铃薯。

Potatoes.

好的。

Okay.

剑桥大学的植物学教授理查德·布拉德利在1728年说，什么东西看起来令人愉悦，但确实很危险？

And Richard Bradley, the professor of botany at Cambridge, said in 1728 that what was agreeable to look at but was definitely dangerous?

胡萝卜、羊、笔，笔，快进来，别再让它们受苦了。

Carrots, sheep, pen, pen, come on in, put them out of this misery.

土豆的亲戚，是番茄。

The cousin of potatoes, it's tomatoes.

在英国，我们不太擅长吸收来自外国的蔬菜。

We're not very good in Britain at absorbing vegetables from foreign countries.

我这里说的‘外国’是加了引号的。

I'm doing that with little quote marks around the foreign.

我们很乐意接受像火鸡这样的新肉类，但像番茄和土豆这样的东西，我们花了几个世纪才慢慢适应。

We're very happy about getting new meat on board like turkey, but when it comes to things like tomatoes and potatoes, it's taken centuries of us to get used to them.

那么，我们花了多久才逐渐接受土豆呢？

So how long did it take for us to kind of get to use to potatoes?

因为我们这里有一个来自乔丹·卡尓的问题，他说：我的女朋友是拉脱维亚裔俄罗斯人，她朋友开玩笑说英国食物就是各种土豆菜肴的变体，还嘲笑配着豆子吃的烤土豆。

Because we have a question here from Jordan Carr who says, my girlfriend, who is a Latvian Russian, and her friend joked that British food is just made up of different variations of potato dishes, and proceeded to laugh at jacket potatoes with beans.

我不觉得这有什么不对。

I don't see what's wrong.

是烤土豆，只是豆子除外，我觉得豆子其实没问题。

It's jacket potatoes, except for the beans actually, which is I think is fine.

被俄罗斯人批评食物差，

Criticised for bad food by Russians,

我觉得。

I think.

被拉脱维亚人。

By Latvians.

我听说他们有土豆煎饼，是的。

I've heard they had potato latkes, yeah.

我们对土豆很热衷，但我觉得他们并非唯一，我觉得这样说有点苛刻了，毕竟我们和土豆有着漫长而曲折的历史，最终我们爱上了它们，我不会说它们花了我们多久？

We're quite keen on potatoes, but I think they're not the only Yeah, I think that is slightly harsh actually because we've had a long and rather vexed history with potatoes and we've come to love them, I wouldn't How long say that they take us?

天哪，我的意思是，土豆是西班牙人最早去南美洲和中美洲时引入欧洲的，对吧？

The Oh gosh, I mean they were introduced to Europe, weren't they, from when the Spanish first went to South America and Central America.

所以仅仅四五百年前吧，

So a mere kind of four hundred or five hundred years,

皮恩，你同意雅克·希拉克的看法吗？

Pen, would you agree with Jacques Chirac?

我们是不是仅次于芬兰的最差食物国家？

Are we the worst country after Finland for food?

我的意思是，很多外国听众听到这个都会笑，说当然了，但在我看来他们完全错了。

I mean, lot of our foreign listeners will be laughing at this and saying, of course you are, but they are quite wrong in my view.

你怎么看？

What do you think?

这太搞笑了。

It's so funny.

我二十岁出头的时候。

I was in my early 20s.

我去捷克斯洛伐克教英语。

I went to go and teach English in what was then Czechoslovakia.

我当时想，你在捷克斯洛伐克的市场上根本买不到新鲜食物。

And I thought, you know, I was in the markets of Czechoslovakia, you couldn't get fresh food anywhere at the time.

我相信现在可以了。

I'm sure you can now.

那时候到处都是炸奶酪、腌卷心菜，虽然各有各的美味，但我的学生们都确信，英国菜是全世界的笑柄。

Everything was kind of fried cheese, pickled cabbage, delicious in its own way, but they all knew for a fact, my students, that English food was the laughing stock of the world.

他们从未去过英国，也从未吃过英国菜，但不知为何，他们就是这么认为的。

They'd never been to England, they'd never had it, but it was just a fact that they'd kind of learned somewhere.

我觉得这是二战后形成的声誉。

I think that's a very post World War II reputation.

真的吗？

Oh, really?

这么晚？

That late?

是的，大概吧。

Yeah, probably.

事实上，这种评价可能相当合理，二战期间以及战后配给制等各种因素叠加，使得我们的食物相当糟糕。

Probably kind of richly deserved, in fact, and all sorts of things kind of got together in World War II, post rationing and all the rest of it to make our food quite bad.

但我认为这会不会太苛刻了？

But I think it's probably is it harsh?

我认为现在这么说可能太苛刻了，因为各种人、各种精酿酒吧和厨师已经为许多英式菜肴带来了非凡的创新。

I think it's probably harsh now because all sorts of people, all sorts of gastropubs and chefs have done all kinds of extraordinary things with some kind of English dishes.

但几十年前，这种评价或许还算公允。

A But few decades, I think it might have been fair.

雷蒙德·波斯特盖特在20世纪50年代推出《美食指南》时曾说：‘是的，这看起来有点奇怪，我正试图假装英国也有美食，但你总得从某处开始。’

Raymond Postgate, when he introduced the Good Food Guide in the 1950s, he said, Yes, it does look a bit strange, I'm trying to pretend that there is good food in Britain, but you've got to start somewhere.

也许如果我们开始鼓励人们互相推荐自己喜欢的餐厅，这或许能帮助我们逐步建立起一种饮食文化。

And maybe if we start encouraging people to recommend to each other restaurants that they liked, maybe it will just help us, you know, increase a kind of food culture.

你读过那些老版的《美食指南》吗？

Have you read any of those old, oh, good food guides?

因为我在写关于八十年代的书时，即使在八十年代也读过。

Because I did when I was writing my book on the eighties, even in the eighties.

而且八十年代的很多条目，其实就是《好食物指南》。

And a lot of the entries in the eighties, I mean, are the good food guides.

它会写，这是纽卡斯尔最好的餐厅。

And and it will say, this is the best restaurant in Newcastle.

别点蔬菜。

Don't order the vegetables.

它们糟糕透顶之类的。

They're absolutely atrocious or something.

你知道，这些对食物的描述听起来简直可怕，而这也正是我记忆中的样子。

You know, these these descriptions of these sounds absolutely ghastly, and that's kind of how I remember it actually.

七十年代，八十年代。

Seventies, eighties.

但宾，你觉得

But, Penn, you think

这是因为战争吗？

that's because of the war?

是因为配给制吗？还是因为烹饪的习惯被打破了？

Because of rationing, because the habit of cooking gets broken or what happens?

我的意思是，当我提到战后时，我们有一个非常特定的战后饮食，但我觉得实际上，它比那还要早。

Oh, mean, think when I say post war, I think we have a very particular post war diet, but I think actually, no, it goes back longer than that.

我认为，如果追溯到一切开始出问题的源头，某种程度上，可能是在漫长的18世纪，英国人的口味就是那时候奠定的，当时有女管家生产本地种植的优质食物，大量蔬菜，大量肉类，总是有很多肉。

I think if you go right back to where it all went wrong, in a way, it was probably because we seem to be going the right way in the long eighteenth century, that's when the English palette is laid down, when you have female housekeepers who were producing locally grown good food, lots of vegetables, lots of meat, always lots of meat.

然后我认为真正出问题的是，英国人开始痴迷于社会地位的提升，而提升社会地位的一种方式就是吃法国菜。

And then I think what really goes wrong is Britain becomes obsessed with social climbing, and one of the ways to socially climb is to have French food.

所有东西都是法国菜。

And everything is French food.

整个19世纪，所有的关注点都集中在法国菜上。

All the focus goes on French food in that nineteenth century.

所以这是法国人的错。

So it's the fault of the French.

是的。

Yeah.

这是试图模仿法国人的错。

It's a fault of trying to be the French.

我们可以

We can

也可以结束这个播客了，毕竟我们已经明确了这全是

end the podcast too, can't Now that we've established it's all

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

我认为这是英国人过于专注的结果，我们试图模仿法国菜，但这种方式可能根本不适合英国那些朴素的厨房。

I think it's the fault of British British focus, us trying to kind of imitate French food in a way that just probably didn't suit quite quite sort of modest English kitchens.

所以如果我们能稍微回退一点

So if we could dial it sort of back

在时间上。

in time.

是的。

Yeah.

是否存在一个时刻，可以说英国菜已经形成了？

Is there a point at which you can say there is a British cuisine?

如果有，那个时刻是什么时候？英国菜又是什么？

And if so, when is that point and what is the food?

我认为，如果你看看《傲慢与偏见》结尾班纳特太太为达西和彬格莱准备的家庭晚餐，那很可能就是英国菜。

I think if you look at the family dinner that missus Bennett is trying to cook for Darcy and Bingley at the end of Pride and Prejudice, that is probably your British cuisine.

她非常自豪自己的鹿肉非常出色，鹧鸪的味道甚至胜过达西先生的法国厨师能做出的任何菜肴。

She's very proud of the fact that her venison is really good, the partridges are better than anything that the French chef of Mr Darcy could produce.

她准备了合适的汤品，虽然她没明说，但很可能有一道新鲜豌豆汤，还有一道用鸡肉或其他食材熬制的汤。

She has the right kind of soups they're probably made she doesn't say but there's probably a fresh pea soup and then a soup made from chicken or something.

你可能会吃到鸭肉配豌豆。

And you might have duck and peas.

在那些年份里，我们确实有很多蔬菜，但它们通常伴随着肉类一起上桌，结果被忽视和藏了起来，所以我们以为蔬菜很少，但实际上人们是吃这些蔬菜的。

Often in those years, we do have lots of vegetables but they sort of come with the meat and they sort of get forgotten about and hidden, so we think there aren't very many of them, but people did eat them.

所以我认为，从那个漫长的十八世纪开始，英国饮食可能本可以变得更好，但不知为何，关注点却偏离了。

So I think that's probably when it could have got better from that kind of long eighteenth century onwards, and somehow the focus just went wrong.

想到十八世纪到摄政时期与法国的关系，英国人常自夸说我们吃得更好，有烤牛肉，而法国人只有瘦弱的蔬菜。

Thinking about the relationship with France in the eighteenth into the Regency period, I mean it is a staple of British self congratulation that we eat better, that we have roast beef, and all the French have is kind of scrawny vegetables.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

太棒了。

Super amazing.

你书中引用的那段话，是萨克雷说的吗？他说，如果让同等数量的英国人吃牛肉，法国人吃埃皮西奶酪，那勇敢的英国人会……

Passage you quote in the in the book about was it Thackery saying that that if you got an equal number of Britons fed on beef and Frenchmen fed on Episcene cheese, the plucky Brits would

这太精彩了。

is that great.

他可能是在逗我们，让你同意他的说法。

He's he's probably ribbing us, you know, to agree.

因为我觉得他当时正坐在巴黎的一家法国餐厅里，大谈特谈英式美食有多棒。

Because I think he is sitting in a French restaurant in Paris as he's kind of pontificating about how brilliant French British food is.

霍加斯，就是那个著名的漫画，是的。

Hogarth, that that famous cartoon of of Yes.

Les De

Les De

加来，你知道的那个场景？

Calais where there's the you know?

但这就是牛肉，对吧？

But this is the beef, isn't it?

真正有趣的是，十八世纪是‘老英格兰的烤牛肉’这一形象确立的时刻。

And and that's what's really interesting is that the eighteenth century is the point where the roast beef of Old England is established as this.

这到底意味着什么？

What's all that about?

我认为这部分是因为牛变得更大了。

I think it's partly about cows getting bigger.

这关乎农业革命，育种者发现，如果你能培育赛马，就能培育家畜。

It's about as learn it's kind of agricultural revolution and breeders figuring out that you can if you can breed race horses, you can breed livestock.

因此，在大约两百年的时间里，牛的体重可能翻了一番。

And so over about two hundred years, the weight of cows probably doubled really.

但我认为我们一直对牛肉情有独钟。

But I think we've always been quite keen on our beef.

我们是吃牛肉的民族，莎士比亚也提到过吃牛肉的英国人，诸如此类。

We're beef eaters, Shakespeare talks about beef eating Brits or English rather and all the rest of it.

我认为我们对牛肉有一种痴迷和自豪感，但更确切地说是一种痴迷。

And I think there has been an obsession with and a pride, but an obsession with beef.

就像你说的，汤姆，在某种程度上，我们喜欢嘲笑法国人，因为他们的农民穷，买不起肉，只能吃那种可怜的蔬菜汤。

And like you say, Tom, on one level, we love to mock the French because their peasants are poor, they can't afford meat, they're having this pathetic soup maker which is just a vegetable soup.

实际上，在十八世纪初，很多人认为英国农民的饮食比法国农民更好。

Actually, in the early eighteenth century, quite a lot of people thought that English peasants were better fed than French peasants.

显然，这些假设已经发生了变化，现在人们认为法国人的饮食比英国人更好。

Obviously those assumptions change and now people think that in France people are fed better than in England.

那么工业革命在其中扮演了什么角色？

So what's the role of the industrial revolution in that?

因为这是我另一个模糊的想法：我们吃得很好，然后工业革命来了，这真正摧毁了英国饮食的传统，因为人们从乡村迁移到城镇时，这些传统就丢失了。

Because that's another kind of vague idea I had is that we're eating well and an industrial revolution comes and that's what really torpedoes the traditions of British food because they get lost when people move from the country to the the the towns.

这不正确吗？

Is that not true?

我认为这是对的，但我觉得这只是部分相关。

I think it is true, but I think it's probably tangentially true.

我认为这在一定程度上是正确的，因为圈地运动。

I think it's partly true because of the enclosures.

当人们不再拥有可以种植食物的土地时，情况就变得更加困难。

So when people stop having ground that they can grow food on, that makes it much harder.

你知道，我们不像法国或其他国家那样拥有农民菜肴。

And you know that idea of the kind of that we don't have a peasant cuisine in the way that France or other countries have peasant cuisines.

我认为这部分是被圈地运动和把人们从土地上赶走所破坏的。

I think that partly gets destroyed by the enclosures and all kind of just picking people up off the land.

但我觉得随着工业革命的到来，人们确实进入了工厂，搬进了城市，而且确实存在分配问题，铁路等设施帮助解决了这些问题。

But I think when you have the industrial revolution, yes, people go into factories, yes, people go into urban areas, and yes, there are problems of distribution which the railways and everything help sort out.

本不该如此，因为还出现了新兴的中产阶级，还有增长的财富，本应弥补供应的不足。

There shouldn't because there's also a rising middle class, because there's also rising wealth that should have offset the availability.

但随后法国菜谱传入了。

But then the French menus come in.

是的，但随后法国菜谱传入了。

Yeah, but then the French menus come in.

如果你

If you

比如看看狄更斯一家在19世纪40年代的饮食方式。

look at something like the way that Dickens and his family would be eating in the 1840s, for example.

你提到的那些令人震惊的细节，正好自然地引出了另一个主题。

Horrible detail that you've got about and this segues very neatly into another theme Yeah.

她的烹饪杰作是被浓稠酱汁覆盖的兔肉咖喱

Her her culinary piece de resistance with being rabbit curry smothered

用白酱覆盖。

with white sauce.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

难怪他逃走了

No wonder he ran off

白酱。

white sauce.

酱汁。

Sauce.

是的。

Yes.

哦，放在咖喱里。

Oh, in a curry.

是的。

Yeah.

浇在咖喱上。

Over a curry.

是的。

Yeah.

难怪狄更斯跟艾伦·特纳私奔了。

So no wonder Dickens ran off with Ellen Turner.

但食物和狄更斯，佩妮，你写过很多关于食物和狄更斯的内容。

But food and Dickens, Penny, you've written about food and Dickens a lot.

狄更斯的小说里充满了食物，那么狄更斯笔下的食物是虚构的，还是当时人们真的在吃这些？

Dickens' books are full of so the food they have in Dickens, is that fantasy or is that what people ate at the time, genuinely?

我觉得有时候他的描写有点夸张，比如他写的炖菜里可能有上千万种食材，包括牛蹄和芦笋草——其实就是芦笋。

I think sometimes it gets a bit baroque, you know, when he has a stew which might have 10,000,000 things in it, including cow heel and sprue grass, which is asparagus.

我认为他基本上是在描述大多数人会吃的东西。

I think he's pretty much describing what most people would have eaten.

而狄更斯有趣的地方在于，他的描写非常不法国。

And what's interesting about Dickens is it's very unfrench.

他并没有试图在文学中迎合法国人的口味，尽管在生活中他可能如此。

He isn't trying to kind of cope with the French men, just in his literature, but not in his life.

我的意思是，我想有两个著名的餐食，对吧？

I mean, I guess there are two famous meals, aren't there?

一个是《雾都孤儿》里奥利弗在济贫院要求再添一点饭。

There's Oliver Twist asking for more in the workhouse.

是的。

Yes.

饥饿是狄更斯所痛恨的一切事物的核心。

And being hungry is kind of the essence of everything that Dickens is appalled by.

因为另一个著名场景是《圣诞颂歌》里，斯克鲁奇出现并送上一只火鸡。

Because the other famous one is in Christmas Carol with Scrooge turning up and A turkey.

买一只火鸡。

Buying a turkey.

用火鸡。

With turkey.

总是可以接受的。

Always acceptable.

所以给我们讲讲火鸡的历史吧，因为这真的非常有趣。

So talk us through about the history of the turkey because that's a really, really interesting one.

嗯，火鸡非常特别。

Well, the turkey was extraordinary.

正如我所说，每当任何肉类进入这个国家，人们都会立即接受它。

As I say, whenever meat comes, anything kind of meaty comes into this country, everybody adopts it immediately.

它在十六世纪或十七世纪由一位名叫威廉·斯特里克兰的商人带入。

It comes in the seventeenth century, the sixteenth century with a trader called William Strickland.

我们并不知道确切的年份，但他把火鸡的形象用在了自己的纹章上。

And we don't know exactly the year but he adopts the image of a turkey on his coat of arms.

他被允许使用这个纹章，因为他地位日益显赫。

He's allowed that coat of arms as he becomes more and more ennobled.

当他出现时，仍存在一种对家禽的划分，即农场家禽的地位不如狩猎所得的肉类。

And when he comes in, there's still this kind of division between landfowl, this idea that a farmyard fowl doesn't quite have the status of meat that you hunt.

所以回到十月、威廉以及鹿肉是最上等肉类、最尊贵肉类的理念，松鸡和野鸡等任何狩猎所得的肉类都能赋予你贵族身份，而来自农场的鸡或火鸡则地位稍低。

So going back to October and William and all this idea of venison is the best meat, it's the most noble meat, and grouse and partridge, anything that you hunt somehow gives you the status of nobility whereas if something comes from a farmyard chicken or turkey it has a slightly less status.

但话虽如此，火鸡却广受大众欢迎，它出现时正值人口增长，肉类可能供应不足，因为牛肉尚未像我们之前讨论的那样实现体重翻倍，因此火鸡的到来非常受欢迎。

But having said that, the turkey is very acceptable to everybody and it comes at a time when the population is growing, there probably isn't quite enough meat to go around because beef hasn't yet done the thing that we were talking about where cows haven't yet kind of doubled in weight, and it's very welcome.

但它进入的方式使其并不被视为仅属于贵族阶层的食物。

But it comes in such a way where it's not seen as something which is just kind of for the aristocracy.

因此，农民、小土地所有者或自耕农都可能食用它，它在寒冬时节被广泛接受，因为那时几乎没有其他食物，最终成为我们的圣诞肉类。

So a farmer might eat it or a kind of small landowner or a yeoman and it gets adopted and it's good in the middle of winter when there's not much else around and it becomes our Christmas meat.

狄更斯在其中扮演了多大的角色？

How big a role does Dickens play in that?

我认为火鸡一直是在圣诞节期间食用，但圣诞节期间本来就会吃肉。

I think Dickens it's always eaten around Christmas, but then meat is always eaten around Christmas.

是的，他们吃牛肉，是的，不是吗

Yeah, they eat beef, Yes, isn't

你可能在圣诞节吃牛肉，也可能吃鹿肉，因为在育种者学会让动物真正过冬之前，他们不得不在十一月或十二月宰杀大部分牲畜，否则这些动物会在冬季与人类争夺极其有限的谷物和粮食资源。

you might eat beef around Christmas, you might eat venison, because before breeders had learnt to keep animals alive literally over the winter, they had to slaughter most of them in November or December because otherwise the animals would be competing with us for very, very sparse kind of cereal and grain resources over the winter.

所以大多数动物都在圣诞节前后被食用。

So most animals get eaten around Christmas.

狄更斯将这种传统牢牢地锚定在圣诞节当天，他生动地描绘了那只美味的大火鸡和圣诞布丁。

Dickens kind of anchors it to the Christmas day, so he has this beautiful description, this brilliant description of this lovely big turkey and Christmas pudding.

但那是改过自新的斯克鲁奇送给他的礼物，而在斯克鲁奇醒悟之前，他们实际要吃的肉其实是鹅。

But that's the thing that the reformed Scrooge brings him, whereas the meat they're actually going to have before Scrooge sees the light is going to be a goose.

我本来就想问这个。

I was going to ask about that.

你看，对我来说，鹅就是我圣诞节吃的那种肉。

You see, to me, a goose is I had a goose at Christmas.

哦，你真幸运。

Oh, lucky you.

在我看来，鹅肉远比火鸡要好。

Goose is infinitely superior to turkey in my view.

是的。

Yeah.

那时候不是。

Not then.

所以为什么人们后来又转变了呢？是不是有一段时间，鹅肉渐渐消失了？

So why did people so there was a sort of turn again, there was a period, wasn't it, when the goose kind of dropped out?

我在七八十年代的时候不认识任何人吃鹅肉，但现在鹅肉又重新流行起来，我觉得它成了一种地位的象征。

I didn't know anyone had a goose in the seventies or the eighties, and now the goose has come back as a bit of a status symbol, I think.

我觉得是这样。

I think so.

鹅肉挺难做的。

They're quite tricky to cook, geese.

非常油腻。

Very fatty.

它们非常油腻。

They're very fatty.

是的。

Yeah.

吃完后好几天你家里人都能闻到味道，所以我就

Your whole house knows about it for a few days afterwards, So I

我们两个人吃了一只鹅，我说两个人，是指我和一个九岁的孩子，因为我妻子不吃肉。

we had a goose for two of us, and when I say two of us, me and a nine year old, because my wife doesn't eat meat.

这真是极其放纵，是的。

It was incredibly self indulgent, Yeah.

但非常非常满足。

But very, very satisfying.

你是不是从市场把鹅扛回家，路上有没有顽童用雪球打落了你的高顶礼帽？

Did you carry it back from the market and did an urchin knock the top top hat off with a snowball as you?

是的。

Yeah.

我抓到了一个顽童。

I I I got an urchin.

我朝窗外大喊。

I shouted out of the window.

今天是几号？

What day is it?

圣诞节。

Christmas day.

哦，这儿有一先令。

Oh, here's a shilling.

是的。

Yeah.

这就是奇平诺蒂和汤姆的日常生活。

That's normal life in chipping naughty and tum.

但实际上，你本该像克拉奇特太太那样做，把鹅送去面包店烤制，这样你就不会把满屋子都弄得油腻腻的了。

But actually, what you what you should have done is done what missus Cratchit did, is send it to the baker to be cooked because then you wouldn't have all the fattiness in your own house.

所以我对这个有个问题。

So I've got a question about that.

人们会不会像狄更斯笔下那样，买个派然后送到面包店去烤？是的。

Did people because you see that a lot in Dickens, that people will buy a pie and they'll take it to the bakery or they'll Yeah.

那这到底是怎么运作的呢？

So how does that work?

如果你不住在有厨师或大厨房的地方，你会买东西然后送到面包房烤，再去取回来吗？

If you don't live with a cook, if you don't have a big kitchen, you buy stuff and you send it to a bake house and then go and get it?

因为基本上你没有烤箱。

Because you don't have an oven, basically.

你知道，伦敦大火之后，大概是因为每个人都得使用大型的——不是公共烤箱，而是面包店的烤箱——来烤食物，因为大多数人太穷，买不起自己的烤箱。

You know, the Great Fire of London, probably because everybody had to use massive, not communal ovens, but bakery ovens to cook their things because most people were too poor to afford their own ovens.

还有，派饼，派饼，面包师傅？

And you know, patter cake, patter cake, baker's man?

哦，用豌豆戳一下，因为你得做个标记，得说明这是

Oh, prick it with pea because you need to mark it, you need to say, This is

我的

my

派。

pie.

让开，别人都别挡路。

Get off everybody else.

嗯，

Well,

彭，我认为这应该是第一道菜的开始。

Pen, I reckon that's the first course start.

所以我们应该休息一下，然后回来吃第二道菜。

So we should take a break and then come back and have the second course.

彭，我真的很想再聊聊凯瑟琳·狄更斯做的兔肉咖喱。

And Pen, I would like love to go back to that rabbit curry cooked by Katherine Dickens.

哦，你对咖喱不感兴趣吗？因为咖喱也有着引人入胜的历史。

Oh, you wouldn't you about curry because that also has an intriguing history.

所以我们回来后，将继续讨论咖喱。

So we'll come back, and we will be talking curry.

欢迎回到《历史的余音》。

Welcome back to the rest is history.

我是多米尼克·桑布鲁克、汤姆·荷兰德，还有我们的

Me, Dominic Sambrook, Tom Holland, and our

嘉宾，佩恩·沃格勒。

guest, Pen Vogler.

汤姆非常想聊聊咖喱。

And Tom is very keen to talk about curry.

汤姆，请说。

Tom, please.

因为咖喱现在基本上已经成为我们的国民菜肴了，不是吗？

Because curry is now basically our national dish, isn't it?

而且事实上，它的历史比我之前想象的要悠久得多。

And essentially, it's much, much older than I had realized.

它比鱼和薯条要古老得多。

It's much older, say, than fish and chips.

它在英国出现之前就存在了。

It's older than in Britain.

是的。

Yes.

跟我们说说咖喱的古老历史以及它和肉汁的关系吧。

Just tell us about about the antiquity of curry and its relationship to gravy.

哦，对的。

Oh, yeah.

英国食谱中最早的咖喱食谱可能是汉娜·格拉斯在1747年写的，而如果你把它和鱼和薯条比较，鱼和薯条直到大约1900年才真正结合成一种经典搭配。

So the first recipe for curry in a British cookbook is probably Hannah Glasse in 1747, and if you compare it to fish and chips, fish and chips didn't get together really as a kind of married couple until probably the 1900s.

汉娜·格拉斯写的咖喱食谱，说实话并不怎么好吃，那种咖喱的辣味主要来自白胡椒。

Hannah Glass is writing a recipe for curry, it's not that nice to be honest, it's kind of curry, most of the heat comes from white pepper.

你做过吗？

Have you cooked it?

你有

Have you

吃过吗？我做过。

eaten I have cooked it.

但这很有趣，因为当我把其他一些我做过的菜拿来比较时，如果你回溯到中世纪早期的饮食，很多菜肴都使用了十字军带回的香料调味。

But it's interesting because some of the other things I've cooked and compare it to, if you go back to very early of medieval food, a lot of that is flavored by the tastes, spices that the Crusaders brought back.

而我们现在做咖喱时用的所有食材，比如高良姜、生姜、长胡椒、黑胡椒等等——当然不包括辣椒，因为那是新大陆的产物——这些在中世纪的富裕先辈们就已经在使用和享受了。

And all the things that we put into curries now like galangal, ginger, long pepper, black pepper and all the rest of it not chilli obviously because that's a new world thing they were being used and enjoyed by our kind of wealthier medieval forebears.

所以咖喱的味道其实比炸鱼薯条更接近中世纪英格兰的口味？

So a curry is kind of closer to the tastes of English medieval food than fish and chips?

是的，我觉得是这样。

Yes, think so.

我觉得中世纪英格兰的饮食在某种程度上介于咖喱和北非风味之间，它

I think English medieval food a little bit halfway between a curry and sort of North African It's

有点

a little

在某种程度上更偏甜酸。

bit more sweet and sour in a way.

但一些中世纪的食谱确实感觉很现代，不像汉娜·格拉斯的咖喱。

But some of those medieval recipes do feel quite contemporary, unlike Hannah Glasse's curry.

但汉娜·格拉斯烹饪的时代，许多人正在为英国或东印度公司工作，前往印度，爱上这种美味的食物，并想在家品尝到它。

But Hannah Glas was cooking at a time when a lot of people were working for the British or the East Indian company, going to India, falling in love with this amazing food and wanting to taste it back home.

人们开始在咖啡馆出售咖喱粉，大约从18世纪初开始推广咖喱的概念。

People were selling curry powder in coffee shops and just starting to roll out the idea of curry from about the early eight, seventeen hundreds.

彭，我能纠正一下你刚才说的一点，就是关于中世纪烹饪的？

Pen, can I pick you up on something you just said, which is about the medieval cooking being?

我的意思是，这很有趣，我们显然在谈论顶层人群，我猜。

I mean, that's fascinating that that the sort of I mean, obviously, we're talking about people at the top, I assume.

最顶层的人。

Right at the top.

是的。

Yes.

所以他们吃的东西，可以说是介于咖喱和摩洛哥塔吉锅之类的食物之间。

So what they're eating is a sort of, you know, somewhere between a curry and, you know, Moroccan tajin or something.

但问题是，这种风味是在什么时候从饮食中消失的呢？

But the question then is, at what point does that fall out to the equation?

那么，为什么英国菜会获得缺乏香料、味道平淡的名声，而显然在1400年、1500年或更早的时候，它的食物其实非常辛辣呢？

So why does British food acquire this reputation for unspiced blandness when clearly it was very spicy in 1400 or 1500 or whenever?

我认为内战可能是最关键的一个节点，如果你要选一个时间点的话，因为清教徒非常反对香料，他们把那种他们称为‘可憎的浓汤’的东西——很可能是一种加了香料的水果炖菜——视为禁忌。

I think the civil war probably is probably, if you want one point, that probably gives us the best point because the Puritans were very against spice, they were very against what they called an abominable broth, which is probably a kind of pottage of spiced fruit.

他们觉得这根本就是天主教徒的做法。

They thought it was papists, basically.

他们觉得这是天主教徒的行为，而且认为这纯粹是浪费钱。

They thought it was papists, they thought it was basically a waste of money, I think.

穷人应该把辛辛苦苦挣来的钱花在真正像样的东西上，比如面包和啤酒，或者面包和肉。

The poor should be spending their hard earned money on something decent, I know, bread and beer or something, bread and meat.

水。

Water.

面包和水，是的。

Bread and water, yeah.

面包和圣经。

Bread and bibles.

或者清教徒的小册子，你知道的，比如飞鹰之类的，他们怎么叫来着。

Or puritanical tracts, you know, like the flying eagle or whatever they're called.

这不只是清教徒的问题，我认为口味也在变化，因为就像你说的，只有都铎时期最顶层的家庭才主导这种口味。

It's not just the Puritans, I think also it is that tastes are changing because, like you said, it was only in the Tudor period, it was the very, very top families who were determining that kind of taste.

然后管家们开始介入，更多是中等阶层的人，我想，随着中产阶级逐渐兴起，负责菜单的人很可能是女性，她可能是管家，更倾向于在当地寻找食材，而不是昂贵的香料。

Then you get input from housekeepers, from much more kind of you get the middling sort, I suppose, when you get this kind of middle class that begins to grow up and it tends to be the person who's in control of the menu is probably female, she's probably a housekeeper, and she's probably going to look around her much more locally for food than kind of expensive spices.

宾，什么时候养小猪？

Penn, when do cocker pigs?

你熟悉 cockapig 吗，多米尼克？

Are you familiar with the cockapig, Dominic?

我可能已经把这事儿从记忆里抹掉了。

I've probably I've erased that from my memory.

我搜了一下，真希望我早知道什么是cockapig。

Well, I googled it, and I I wish I wish that I had What's a cockapig?

它是

Is it a

有点像火鸡鸭鸡吗？

bit like a turducken?

你知道

Do you know

什么是火鸡鸭鸡吗？

what a turducken is?

知道。

Yes.

有点像，但它是依次叠加的，而不是

A bit a bit but it's sequential rather than

是的。

yeah.

所以你把一只蟑螂的前半部分切下来，对吧。

A cut So you get you get the front of a cock Right.

蟑螂。

Cockroach.

不错。

Nice.

是的。

Yes.

然后把它贴在一只小猪的背上。

And you stick it onto the back of a small pig.

或者反过来。

Or the other way around.

或者反过来。

Or the other way around.

是的。

Yes.

你可以这么做。

You can do that.

你试过那支笔吗？

Have tried that pen?

你做过这个吗？

Have you cooked that?

因为那是理查德二世最喜欢的食物，对吧？

Because that was Richard the second's favorite food, wasn't it?

他还用金箔覆盖，做成金灿灿的样子。

And he he had serve it gilded, covered with gold leaf.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

就是这样。

That's it.

我真的很想试试这个。

I really, really want to try that.

那么，他们该怎么做到呢？

Well, how would they do that?

所以他们会用一个大托盘之类的，把公鸡的前半部分和猪的后半部分拼在一起。

So they'd have a big tray or something, and they'd have the the the front of a cock and the back of a pig.

更可能是猪的前半部分和鸡的后半部分。

More like more likely the front of a pig and the back of a

公鸡。

Cock.

鸡或公鸡的后半部分之类的。

Back of a hen or cock or something.

然后他们会把它缝上去，你会把它缝上去。

And they'd sew it onto you'd sew it on.

哇。

Wow.

这真是个东西

That's something

来自《夺宝奇兵2：魔宫传奇》。

from Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.

但这是不是清教徒毁掉的另一件事？

But is that another thing the Puritans ruined?

是的，我认为在中世纪最高等的餐桌上，他们特别喜欢那些看起来奇特的东西。

Yeah, I think that's quite on the kind of the most highest tables in medieval times, they loved things that just looked different.

他们喜欢那种展示性和视觉冲击力强的东西。

They loved kind of display and things to look.

所以他们真的会喜欢，你知道的，赫斯顿·布卢门撒尔做的肉水果。

So they would actually really like, you know, Heston Blumenthal does his meat fruit

肉水果，没错。

Meat fruit, yes.

我觉得肉水果起源于中世纪。

Think meat fruit comes from medieval.

实际上，我本来怀疑他是不是有点过头了，但听起来他根本没那样做。

Actually that because I wondered whether he was pushing that a bit too far, it doesn't sound like he is at all.

实际上，

Actually,

他并没有走得太远。

I he's not going far

我觉得他的食谱其实是基于他找到的那些古方。

think his recipes are based on recipes that he's found, actually.

但他们喜欢让食物看起来像刺猬一样。

But they love things to kind of look like hedgehogs

那时候这会是一种国际口味吗？

would be an international taste at that time, would it?

毕竟这是端给国王的，可以想象王室餐桌上一定充满了这种华丽的菜肴，是的。

Mean, it's being served to the king, presumably these are the kind of flamboyant things that are going on on royal tables Yeah.

Across

Across