50. 青少年

他们是。

They are.

他们是。

They are.

但他们之所以从众，是因为他们不想从众。

But but they they're they're conformist in the sense that they don't want to be conformist.

是的。

Yes.

他们并不是都在说：‘哦，拜托。’

They're not all kind of saying, oh, please.

我能穿上制服，整齐划一地走吗？

Can I dress up in uniforms and match around up?

我的意思是，他们确实想加入，我知道他们某种程度上是在创造自己的制服，因为确实如此。

I mean, they want to join I know that they are kind they are kind of creating uniforms because Yeah.

你知道的，摩登族和摇滚族

You know, mods and rock

和摇滚，还有朋克，是的。

and rock and and punk and yeah.

新浪潮，我的意思是，我知道那是什么，但你懂我的意思。

New wave and I mean, I know that's but you know what I mean.

那里有一个相当大的转变。

There's there's there's quite a gear shift there.

我的意思是，约翰·萨维奇的那本书，你提到过的那本，确实提到了德国青年对加入青年运动没什么热情，他们只是在听摇摆乐队的音乐，是的。

I mean, the John Savage book the John Savage book, which you which you mentioned, does have this amazing thing about the German youth who were not joining the youth with any great enthusiasm, who were kind of listening to swing bands Yeah.

还有英国的，是的。

And to English Yeah.

音乐，在汉堡。

Music and in Hamburg.

是的。

Yeah.

这太不可思议了。

It's incredible.

这就像

It's like a

披头士的前史。

Beatles prehistory.

在披头士去那里演出之前，

Before the Beatles went and played at the

在钢筋上。

on the rebar.

这真是太棒了，不是吗，汤姆？

Is such a great thing, isn't it, Tom?

因为以前我读那本书之前，我从未想过第三帝国会有如此充满活力的反对性青年文化。

Because you don't think I mean, before I read that book, it had never occurred to me that the Third Reich would have this vibrant oppositional youth culture.

是的。

Yeah.

青年文化。

Youth scene.

而且他们都痴迷于英国音乐。

And that they were all obsessed with English music.

是的。

Yeah.

太棒了。

It's great.

我认为这在欧洲其他地方也有类似的平行现象。

I think that that that has parallels elsewhere in Europe.

所以，再次说，这是我之前从未真正想过的事情。

So, again, something that I hadn't really thought of.

我记得读过金斯·拉米斯的回忆录。

I I remember reading Kings Lamis's memoirs.

金斯·拉米斯是一位小说家，你知道的，你可能会觉得他是个彻头彻尾的保守派。

And Kings Lamis, who novelist, you know, who you think of as this utter reactionary buffer.

他谈到，在二十世纪三十年代，他在南伦敦或他所在的地方，和父亲因为爵士乐激烈争吵。

He talks about how he's in the nineteen thirties in South London or or wherever he is, he's having these terrible rouse with his dad about jazz.

所以他觉得爵士乐，现在我们觉得爵士乐非常老派、陈旧。

So he thinks jazz now we think of jazz as a very tweedy and and sort of old fashioned.

但在当时，爵士乐刚从美国传过来。

But at the time, jazz has just come from America.

所以金斯利·阿莫斯的父亲说，别弄出这种可怕的噪音了。

So Kingsley Amos' dad is you turn that awful racket.

是的。

He is.

这正是正在发生的事。

He that's exactly what's happening.

他在说：你这孩子，到底怎么了？

He's saying, what is wrong with you, boy?

你知道的，去洗个冷水澡什么的。

You know, take a cold shower and stuff.

这根本不是音乐。

That's not music.

是的

Yeah.

基斯利只是说：哦，不。

And Kingsley was just like, oh, no.

这是当时最酷的音乐。

This is the really cool music of the day.

所以，我认为在三十年代，我们现在往往把它刻板地想象成全是平顶帽和类似乔治·奥威尔的样子，但实际上在三十年代，工业化世界各地已经出现了青少年文化，这与音乐有关，因为当时显然已经有了唱片机。

And and so, you know, so I think in the in the thirties, which we now tend to caricature as all flat caps and kind of George Orwell, I think in the thirties, you do have a teenage culture across the kind of industrialized world, and it's to do with music because you obviously got record players.

所以，我们已经能感受到一种青年文化的萌芽。

So already, you know, we have that sort of sense of of a sort of youth culture emerging.

因此，'青年文化'和'青少年'这两个词实际上都是在1944年才被创造出来的。

So you've got the word youth culture and the word teenager both really being coined in 1944.

然后，显然，当第二次世界大战结束后的经济开始腾飞时，这一切彻底爆发了。

And then, obviously, when the economy takes off at the end of the Second World War, that all just completely explodes.

好的。

Okay.

但是，多米尼克，我觉得关于青少年的史前史已经说得够多了。

But, Dominic, I think that's enough of the of of the prehistory for teenagers.

你已经很好地铺垫了。

So you've set it up nicely.

我觉得我们现在应该休息一下。

I think we should have a break now.

等我们回来后，应该看看自二战以来‘青少年’这一概念是如何演变的。

And then when we come back, we should, we should have a look at the way that the notion of the teenager has evolved since the second world war.

那我们就来做一件非常‘青少年’的事吧，插播一个广告。

So, let's do a very teenagery thing and go to a commercial break.

你好。

Hello.

欢迎回来。

Welcome back.

我们希望能带给你一些青少年的激情，我们之前探讨了青少年的深层史前史，以及青少年的史前史，现在我们已经进入四十年代，走向五十年代，观察青少年文化这一概念是如何演变的。

We are giving you, I hope, some teenage kicks, and, we've been looking at the the deep prehistory of the teenager and then the prehistory of the teenager, and we've now arrived, well, at the forties, and we're into the fifties looking at the way that the concept of of teenage culture, evolves.

多米尼克，这里有个亚历克斯的问题，我想是希普·霍斯。

And we Dominic, question here for you from Alex, I think it's Ship Horse.

詹姆斯·迪恩是第一个青少年吗？

Was James Dean the first teenager?

在五十年代，人们会认可这一点吗？还是时间给了我们这种印象？

Would that have been recognized back in the fifties, or has time given us that impression?

所以詹姆斯·迪恩是一种典型的形象，你知道的，穿着皮夹克

So James Dean is a kind of, you know, leather jacket

是的。

Yeah.

头发往上梳，

Headgriest up,

冷峻的神情。

cold lift.

是的。

Yeah.

傻乎乎地把赛车开到悬崖边，这种事我们都干过。

Silly, racing cars to the edge of cliffs, all that kind of we've we've all done it.

他是第一个吗？

Is he the first?

不是。

No.

他不是第一个。

He's not the first.

但我认为是的。

But I suppose yeah.

因为根本不存在所谓的第一个青少年。

Because the the the there is no first teenager.

毫无疑问，到二十世纪四十年代末，青少年这个概念已经非常明确了。

The certainly, the end of the nineteen forties, the concept of the teenager is very well established.

但我觉得詹姆斯·迪恩可能属于某种……我不知道。

But I think what James Dean probably is is he's part of a sort of I don't know.

这是一个三巨头吗？还是说我们有弗兰克·辛纳屈？

Is it a triumvirate or or we got Frank Sinatra.

这不止是一个辉煌的存在。

It's more than a triumphant.

弗兰克·辛纳屈、马龙·白兰度、猫王，这些才是最了不起的代表。

Frank Sinatra and Marlon Brando, El Nene Wors Presley, the sort of the biggest one of all.

他们定义了青少年男孩或年轻男子的形象。

People who define the teenage boy or the teenage young man.

我的意思是，弗兰克·辛纳屈实际上年纪大得多，但他们身上有种叛逆的气质。

I mean, some of the Frank Sinatra is actually much older, but they're sort of they are rebellious.

他们充满魅力。

They are glamorous.

他们与父母和长辈都截然不同。

They are different from their parents and different from their elders.

这显然是一个美国式的典型形象，随后在西欧其他地区也流行开来。

And that's obviously an American archetype, and then it's taken up in the rest of Western Europe.

弗兰克·辛纳屈并没有

And Frank Sinatra is not

他在二战时被征召入伍了吗？

drafted in the Second World War, is he?

是这样吗？

Is that right?

我不知道。

I didn't know.

我对弗兰克·辛纳屈一无所知。

I I know nothing about Frank Sinatra.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我认为他当时在四处演出。

So he's I think he's playing he's he's kinda doing gigs.

我知道他确实如此。

I know he's yeah.

他的突破是在二十世纪四十年代初。

He's very that's his breakthrough is the early nineteen forties.

但那时他已经是二十多岁了，但他成为了吸引这一代人的大明星，吸引着这些

But he's in his twenties then already, but he's appealing to this new he is the big star who appeals to this

新的群体，所以这可以说是披头士狂热的前身。

new So this is proto Beatlemania.

这是

This is the

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

女孩们为之疯狂。

Girls can't live for.

所以，基本上，四十年代的女孩们，你知道，她们待在家里。

And, basically so so so girls in the forties have you know, they're at home.

是的。

Yeah.

男孩们都离开了。

Boys are away.

弗兰克·辛纳屈。

Frank Sinatra.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，这很可能不是巧合，正是在这一时期，‘青少年’这个词开始被用于市场营销。

So and and and so it's presumably, it's not a coincidence that this is when the word teenager starts to be marketed.

嗯，我认为美国还刚经历过大萧条。

Well, I think you've also got America's been through the depression.

第二次世界大战重启了美国资本主义的引擎，因此‘青少年’这个词被创造出来，因为这些女孩都在工作——正如你所说，男孩们都走了，年轻女性大量涌入劳动力市场。

So the second world war restarts the engines of American capitalism, and that's why the word teenagers invented because all these girls who are working, because as you say, the the boys are away, so young women are flooding into the workforce.

她们有钱。

They have money.

人们总是会想到青年文化与青少年文化。

And people I always think of youth culture and teenage culture.

这是一个从年轻人身上赚钱的巨大产业。

It's a colossal enterprise in separating young people from their money.

你知道，我从不认为这关乎理想主义或浪漫主义。

You know, it's not about I never think it's about idealism or romanticism.

我认为这仅仅是一次规模庞大的营销活动，也是历史上最成功的营销活动之一。

I think it's just a massive marketing exercise and of the board of the most successful marketing exercises in the history.

那么，我们现在称之为青少年的人是什么时候开始把自己认同为青少年的呢？

And do you do you think that so when do people we now call teenagers start to identify themselves as teenagers?

那么，是营销先出现，还是身份认同先出现？

Well What comes first, the marketing or the sense of identity?

哦，我认为当时 already 已经有一种身份认同了。

Oh, I think there was a sense of identity already.

所以当时已经有了帮派。

So you had gangs.

在二战之前，就已经有了各种群体和帮派。

You had sort of you had tribes and gangs before the Second World War.

但我认为，人们开始自称青少年的时间点大概是在20世纪50年代。

But I think the point at which people refer to themselves as teenagers probably comes in the nineteen fifties.

没错。

Right.

所以到了1956年或1957年，当你成为青少年时，你会很自然地认为自己是青少年，并且毫不迟疑地使用这个词。

And so by the you become a teenager in 1956 or 1957, you think of yourself as a teenager, you use the word very unselfconsciously.

我们有一个来自马修·巴彻的问题。

So we've got a question from Matthew Butcher.

你提到了帮派。

You mentioned gangs.

是的。

Yeah.

50年代对青少年的道德恐慌既是真实的，也是历史上首次出现这种认知吗？

Was the moral panic in the fifties about teenagers both true and the first time this had been perceived?

所以这一直是一个持续的主题，不是吗？

So that's that is that is a a kind of running theme, isn't it?

只要有青少年，就会有成年人为青少年担忧。

That the moment you have teenagers, you have adults who are worrying about teenagers.

是的。

Yeah.

然后你通常会看到

Then you usually see

他们被视为坏孩子。

them as kind of bad.

但你不是说过吗，古时候的人也担心年轻人？

But you sort of said, didn't you, that that the people in the ancient world were worried about the the young?

他们认为年轻人不可靠。

They thought the young were unreliable.

所以我觉得，我的感觉是，这种担忧贯穿了整个历史。

So I think that has run my sense is that that has run through history.

但我认为

But I think

我认为这有所不同，因为在古代世界，人们默认年轻人天生就是有问题的，没错。

it's I think I think it's different because in the ancient world, there's assumption that either young are are just by nature problematic and Right.

是的。

Yeah.

有点不负责任。

Kind of irresponsible.

而我认为，尤其是自战争以来，甚至可能更早之前，这是一种代际现象。

Whereas I think what's distinctive certainly since the war and maybe even before that is that it this is a generational thing.

对于五十年代和六十年代的人们来说，这种感受尤其强烈，因为他们觉得以前从未见过这样的情况，尤其是在六十年代，我猜是这样。

And I guess that that for people in the fifties and sixties, it's particularly bruising because they feel that they've never seen anything like this before that suddenly particularly in the sixties, I would guess.

我觉得这是对的。

I think that's right.

我觉得你能看到这一点。

I think you see it.

实际上，汤姆，你在五十年代确实能看到这种现象。

I think you do see it in the fifties, actually, Tom.

我认为我第一次注意到这一点。

And I think it first see it.

这并不是真正的道德代沟，而是在上世纪五十年代末，基思·沃特豪斯在一家英国报纸上发表的一篇文章中提到：我们的孩子正在发生变化。

It's not really a moral generation gap, but it's a there's an article by Keith Waterhouse in the late nineteen fifties in one of the British paper business that says, you know, our children are changing.

文章中提到很多内容，比如孩子们个子更高、更壮实，青春期来得更早，这些都是真的，因为他们的健康状况和饮食更好了。

And it has all this stuff about they're bigger, they're taller, they reach puberty earlier, all of which is true because of their their health is better and their diet is better.

所以年轻人成熟得更快了。

So young people are becoming mature much more quickly.

他们更加自信。

They're much more self confident.

他们个子更高了。

They're bigger.

他们更早地涉足性行为。

They're more sexually active.

他们手头更有钱了。

They have more money.

他们更加显眼了。

They're more visible.

他们有点更吵闹了。

They're kind of louder.

于是你就开始看到大量这种道德恐慌的言论。

And so that's when you start to get a lot of the sort of moral panic stuff.

而且，当人们谈论历史时，总有一种观念认为贫困会带来巨大焦虑，而富裕则值得庆贺。

And and because there's always this sort of sense among when people talk about history that sort of poverty is is a source of great anxiety and affluence is to be celebrated.

但往往，富裕本身也会引发可怕的焦虑。

But often, affluence creates terrible anxieties of its own.

这在五十年代和六十年代确实发生了。

And that's definitely what happened in the fifties and sixties.

因此，青少年拿着钱买衬衫、杂志和唱片，让许多长辈感到深深不安。

So teenagers with money buying shirts and buying magazines and records was profoundly unsettling to a lot of their elders.

他们总觉得，你知道，他们在干什么？

They kind of thought, you know, what are they doing?

他们把钱浪费在垃圾上，不听我们的话，还特别能说会道，自信满满，彼此发生性关系，放着震耳欲聋的音乐，诸如此类的事情。

They're wasting money on rubbish, and they don't listen to us, and they're got all this sort of they're more articulate, and they're confident, and they're having sex with each other and they're playing their loud music and all this sort of stuff.

而这正是五六十年代英国或美国社会与文化故事中非常重要的一部分。

And and, you know, that's a huge part of the sort of social and cultural story of, let's say, Britain or America in the fifties and sixties.

约翰·列侬有一句著名的话，我想约翰·萨维奇曾引用过，他在谈论美国时说，我们总是仰望美国，因为只有那里才有青少年。

So in there's that famous comment by John Lennon that I think John Savage quotes, and he's talking about America and says that, you know, we always look to America because they had teenagers, and nowhere else did.

是的。

Yeah.

但他们之所以有青少年，是因为他们没有经历紧缩时期。

But they had teenagers because they were they weren't going through austerity.

对。

Right.

所以在英国，我想还有整个欧洲，青少年的出现也是一种对传统的背离——不仅仅是对紧缩政策的背离，更是对当年被奉为赢得战争所必需的那些美德的否定。

So in Britain and, I guess, Europe, the emergence of the teenager is also a repudiation of the I mean, not just of austerity, but what had been cast as the virtues necessary to win a war.

是的。

Yeah.

斯巴达式的美德。

Spartan virtues.

斯巴达式的美德。

Spartan virtues.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

他们成为前沿青少年嘲讽的对象。

They they they become objects of mockery on the on the part of kind of cutting edge teenagers.

我知道你会说这只是一个少数人的行为，可能在六十年代，大多数青少年只是剪短头发，画些死核心之类的东西。

I I know that that you will say that this was a minority pursuit, and that probably in the sixties, most teenagers were cutting their hair and drawing dead core or something.

你就想一想吧。

Teen just think about it.

如果你是1965年的青少年，汤姆，有人又开始谈战争，你肯定会翻白眼，觉得烦透了，心里想：‘爷爷，闭嘴吧。’

If you're a teenager in 1965, Tom, I mean, somebody starts up about the war again, I mean, you're kinda rolling your eyes and you're sick of, you know, shut up grandad.

你知道，你活在战争的余波里，但一再听人讲这些事真的无聊又烦人。

You know, you you live with the legacy of it, but it's incredibly boring and tiresome to be told about it.

所以我认为，即使那些并不叛逆的青少年，大多数青少年因为不叛逆，也会觉得被反复灌输敦刻尔克精神之类的内容令人厌烦。

So I think actually even teenagers who weren't rebellious, I most teenagers because they weren't, would probably have you know, they were sick of being lectured about, oh, this was the spirit that of Dunkirk and and all that.

他们实际上比现在的人更抗拒这种说教，因为向他们灌输这些的正是他们的父母。

They were much more resistant to that actually then, I think, than people are now because it was, you know, it was their parents who were lecturing them about it.

这一点最经典的例证是《发条橙》。

The, the the classic, illustration of that is If.

马尔科姆·麦克道威尔主演的这部电影设定在一所极其严酷的公学里，那里每个人都必须接受训练，以便将来参军或统治大英帝国。

The, the Malcolm McDowell film is set in spectacularly brutal public school where everyone has to be kind of trained to go out and join the army or run the British empire.

对。

Right.

那正是1968年，对吧？

And that's exactly '68, is it?

1968年？

'68?

1968年。

'68.

这是林赛·安德森，他回到了自己母校切尔滕纳姆，但没有告诉他们自己来做什么。

It's Lindsay Anderson, and he goes back to his old his old school, Cheltenham, and he doesn't tell them what he's doing.

我的意思是，这才是关键。

I mean, that's the thing.

因为他曾是这所学校的学生，所以获得了许可，只是说想来拍一部关于这所学校的电影。

He he gets permission because it's his old school, and he sort of says, I want to come and do this film about the school.

好的。

Okay.

那么对于那些

So how much for those

还没看过的人，这部电影讲的是三个叛逆的男孩，片中还有一个叫‘女孩’的角色，是的。

who haven't seen it, it's it's about three rebellious boys, and there's there's there's somebody in the film called The Girl who Yes.

现在连这种事都不允许了。

Doesn't even make do that now.

电影的结尾是，我在剧透吗？

And it ends I I am I giving a spoiler?

不。

No.

我的意思是，你可以把它送人。

I mean, you can give it away.

我的意思是，

I mean,

那些没看过的人，结局是他们最终像用机关枪扫射所有人一样。

people can That that that it ends up with them kinda machine gunning everybody Yeah.

在演讲日那天。

On the on speech day.

我认为，这是一部终极的代沟电影，不是吗？

That's the ultimate sort of generation gap film, I think, isn't it, really?

我的意思是，它有点像

I mean, it's sort of

它发生在六十年代末，那时大家都在谈论代沟。

it comes at that moment in the late sixties when all the talk is of the the generation gap Yeah.

我认为这实际上有点夸大其词。

Which I think is actually a bit exaggerated.

所以我不认为存在巨大的代沟。

So I don't think there is a colossal chip.

但到了七十年代末，出现了一代新的青少年，他们开始反对上一代的青少年。

But then what you get at the end of the seventies is new generation of teenagers turning on the previous generation of teenagers.

是的。

Yeah.

所以朋克的本质其实是，嗯，实际上你

So that's the kind of the essence of punk is to Well, actually, you

你知道吗？

know what?

你说得对，但我原以为你会说些完全不同的东西。

I you're right about that, but I thought you're gonna say something completely different.

我本来想说的。

I was gonna say.

在1979年，首次投票的年轻选民，也就是18岁、19岁、20岁、21岁的人，成为支持玛格丽特·撒切尔和保守党的最重要摇摆群体之一，如果你这么说，那是对的，因为这确实是一种否定。

That in 1979, first time voters, so people who are 18, 19, 20, 21, they're one of the biggest swing groups to Margaret Thatcher and the conservatives, which is it which is which if you were saying that, it would have been right because that is a repudiation

我肯定读过。

I'm sure I read

这些内容都出自你的书。

that out of your books.

他们的六十年代前辈。

Their sixties predecessors.

但你说得对。

But you're right.

朋克也是其中的一部分。

Punk is also part of that.

所以朋克是对以往一切的否定。

So punk is a repudiation of what's gone before.

所以，接下来你开始看到，我想现在你进入了第二代经典青少年文化，或者说是第三代。

So so then you start to get I suppose now you're into the second generation of kind of classic teen or third generation.

而真正有趣的是，青春期不仅仅是对父母的反叛。

And and the really interesting thing then is that being a teenager is not just about repudiating mom and dad.

而是对

It's about repudiating

早期一代的反叛。

The early generation.

更早的一代。

The earlier generation.

明白了。

Okay.

所以这里有个安迪·梅提出的问题，从2021年的视角来看，为什么那些青少年群体如今消失了？

So there's a question here from Andy May, who who asks, looking from the perspective of 2021, obviously, why have those teenage tribes died out now?

未来还会出现新的群体吗？

Will there be new ones in the future?

摩登族，远远领先，他们拥有音乐和风格。

Mods, by a million miles, they have the music and the style.

是的

Yeah.

所以摩德族与摇滚族的对立是经典案例。

So mods v rockers is the classic.

这可能对我们的非英国听众来说没什么意义。

That won't mean anything probably to our non British listeners.

但在英国，摩德族与摇滚族的对抗确实是经典冲突，不是吗？

But in Britain, mods v rockers, it's the classic clash, isn't it?

因为这关乎阶级。

Because it's about class.

这关乎文化。

It's about culture.

欧洲与美国的对立，以及英国政治生活的方方面面，都体现在摩德族与摇滚族的冲突中。

Europe versus America, they're sort of all British political life is there in the clash of of mods and rockers.

但我猜安迪所暗示的是，一旦你经历了对乏味的父母一代的反叛

But but I guess what what what Andy is alluding to is the sense that once once you've had the rebellion against boring parental generation,

一旦你经历了对上一代青少年的叛逆，接下来你还能去哪里呢？

and then once you've had the teenage rebellion against the previous generation of teenagers, where do you have to go?

我的意思是，某种程度上，隐含的意思是成年人其实一直保持着青少年的心态，那些孩子们

I mean, in a way and and in a way, I guess the implicate is is that adults have kind of remained teenage, that the the kiddos

才是在变化，不是吗？

change, isn't it?

这才是巨大的变化。

That's the big change.

所以现在青少年很难像六十年代的青少年那样进行叛逆了

So it's very difficult now for teenagers to rebel in the way that a teenager in the sixties rebelled

因为当我们还是青少年的时候，很难想象会有这种深刻的变化。

because that's a profound change to imagine when we were teenagers.

当我七八十年代末、九十年代初还是青少年时，根本无法想象我爸爸会和我有共同的兴趣。

See, when I was a teenager in late eighties, early nineties, the thought that my dad might share interests with me would have been utterly unthinkable.

而如今，你知道，我和我儿子有共同的兴趣，而他甚至还没

Whereas now, you know, I share interests with my son who isn't even

还差一点。

a yet.

他读吉卜林。

Him on Kipling.

嗯，

Well,

因此，他极有可能成为2020年代英国唯一一个真正能反抗父亲的青少年。

he's So there's every there's every prospect that he will be the sole teenager in in twenty twenties Britain, able actually to rebel against his father.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这真是个令人恐惧的前景，我想逃走

That what a terrifying prospect that I wanna Run

去开始读《卫报》。

off and start reading The Guardian.

这永远不会发生。

That will never happen.

他比谁都清楚不会做这种事，我简直等不及了。

He knows better than to do that sort of that sort of I can't wait.

我等不及了。

I can't wait.

但是，没错，你说得对。

But, no, you're right.

我觉得这难多了。

I think it's much harder.

此外，如今文化普遍如此碎片化，部落群体也更少了。

Also, culture is generally so fragmented now that there are fewer tribes.

我的意思是，这些部落确实存在，我们的有些听众可能会给我们发推文说：你们忘了那些人或者这些人。

I mean, those tribes do exist and some of our listeners may well sort of tweet us and say, oh, you're forgetting these people or those people.

但事实上，我认为那种生态系统要少得多。

But actually, I think there are far you know, that that sort of ecosystem.

在英国，像《流行音乐排行榜》这样的节目在定义人们听什么音乐以及他们的穿着风格方面起到了巨大的作用。

So in Britain, that eco I mean, something like top of the pops plays such a colossal part in sort of defining what people listen to, but also how they looked.

但这种现象已经消失了，对吧？

And that has gone, hasn't it?

变得太分散了。

So fragmented.

你不会觉得这只是因为，你知道，

You you don't think that that's just because, you know,

我们是两个中年男人。

we're two middle aged men.

我们看不到他们看到的东西。

And we can't see what they see.

我们看不到，我的意思是，TikTok难道不是吗？

We can't I I mean, isn't TikTok and don't know.

但这也创造了新的东西。

But that does create things.

这确实创造了一种共同的语言和共同的文化。

That does create common a common language and a common culture.

但别忘了，如果你的泰德当年采访过摩德族和洛克族，或者后来的朋克族或新浪漫主义者，这些群体当时都非常主流，中年人不可能不知道。

But don't forget, if you Ted had talked to the Mods and the Rockers or later on punks or new romantics, I mean, these were so mainstream that middle aged men would have been aware of them.

换句话说，他们当时会被广泛报道。

So in other words, they would have been featured.

当时《每日镜报》或《太阳报》都会刊登整版专题，告诉你‘你的孩子现在穿什么’。

They were you know, the Daily Mirror or the Sun would would publish sort of double page spreads with a guide to the latest, you know, what are your kids wearing?

这种版面

This kind

很糟糕。

of page It's bad.

他们确实做过这类事情。

They really did do this sort of stuff.

我的意思是，这曾经是主流文化的一部分

I mean, this was they would have it was a it was a it was part of mainstream culture in a way

因此，青少年的生活变得无聊多了，因为我们没有扮演自己的角色。

that So teenage life is a lot more boring as a result because because we're not playing our role.

我们没有获得

We're not getting

好吧，这是乔伊·麦卡锡的问题。

Well, want Here's Joey McCarthy's question.

我不确定是不是同一个乔伊·麦卡锡，我想应该是。

I don't know if it's the same Joey McCarthy I think it is.

一位

An associate of

我确实这么做过。

this I do that.

是的。

Yes.

他说，过去十年里，青少年叛逆、吸毒、青少年怀孕和青年问题都大幅减少了。

And he says, whatever happened to teenage rebellion, drug use, teenage pregnancy, and youth all reduced massively in the past decade.

你现在有一个已经成年的前青少年，还有一个正在读青少年的孩子，我想是这样。

Now you're the father of one ex teenager and one still a teenager, I think.

还有一个正在读青少年的孩子。

One still a teenager.

是的。

Yeah.

那你一定对这一切非常了解。

So you must know all about this.

到底发生了什么？

What has happened?

为什么他们？为什么他们都这么保守？如果他们真的这么保守的话？

Why are they why are they all so conservative if they are so conservative?

我觉得这正迅速变成一种父女对话类的播客，但我也不太确定该怎么回应。

I feel that this is rapidly mutating into a kind of parent daughter podcast of the kind, but I'm not really sure what to say to that.

我不知道。

I don't I don't know.

我的意思是，我认为总是存在从个人经验过度推及到更广泛现象的风险，但我确实感受到一种深刻的叛逆倾向。

I I mean, I think that there's always the risk of extrapolating from the personal to the to to I certainly, there are deep streaks of rebellion.

而最近刚刚影响到我们冰箱的是，素食主义已经进驻了。

And I would say one that's kind of hit just at the moment is, veganism has hit our fridge.

明白了。

Right.

这有点烦人，但显然我们得支持这种选择。

So that's kind of annoying, but one that, obviously, we have to be supportive about.

我们其实不必支持。

We don't have to.

是你自己选择的。

You've chosen.

我确实有点支持。

I kind of do.

嗯，我是支持并钦佩的，但我不确定这是否真的算得上是叛逆，你说呢？

Well, I am I am supportive and and admiring, but I'm not sure that that's that's rebellion necessarily, is it?

这自然引出了亚历克斯·西普霍斯特的另一个问题，他在本集中提出的提问简直太精彩了。

And it it segues neatly into a question from, Alex Schiphorst again, who's absolutely on fire with his questions, in this episode.

我在想，未来的史学家会不会回望格蕾塔·通贝里，认为她代表了一种转变？是通贝里吧？

I wondering whether historians in the future will look back at Greta Thunberg and see a is it Thunberg, isn't it?

通贝里。

Thunberg.

一种青少年时期的转变，我。

Transformation in teenagerhood, I.

嗯。

E.

一种更加政治化、尤其具有环保意识的、或许带有明确信念的反叛者。

One that is more politicized, especially environmentally conscious, perhaps a rebel with a cause.

我会说这很可能属实，但我也意识到，我是从一个……的角度来说的。

I would say that that probably is true, but I'm aware that I'm saying that from the perspective of

不。

No.

我觉得你可能是对的。

I think you're probably right.

我想，从我女儿们身上，我还能看出她们对设计、风格和服装的绝对着迷。

I think I mean, the other thing I would extrapolate from from from my daughters is an absolute fascination with design, style, clothing.

但这一点一直都有。

But that's always been that's always been.

所以这可以追溯到我

So that does go back to I

也就是说，1944年的《十七岁》杂志读者会认出这一点。

mean, that would be recognizable to the readers of 17 magazine in 1944.

但我认为你说得对，我认同亚历克斯·西弗斯托的问题。

But I think you're right that the I I buy Alex Schiphorst question.

我觉得关于格蕾塔·通贝里以及她如何成为一种世俗圣人的这个问题非常有趣。

I think it's a really interesting question about Greater Thunberg and the way in which she's become a kind of secular saint.

而且她的——我的意思是，我知道我们有一些关于圣女贞德的问题。

And her I mean, we've got some questions about Joan of Arc, I know.

而且，她的年轻，以及她是一个看起来比实际年龄更小的女孩——我想从技术上讲她还算个女孩——这一点非常重要。

And and that the youth her youth and the fact that she's a sort of a a girl who or a young woman, I I guess she's still girl technically, who looks even younger than she is.

我认为，这显然在她的国际吸引力中扮演了至关重要的角色。

I think that obviously plays a colossal part in in her international appeal.

但我想，谈论青少年和理想主义时存在一个危险，我在自己关于战后英国的著作中一直非常警惕这一点：很容易被那些最善于表达、教育程度最高的人误导。

But I suppose the danger with talking about teenagers and idealism, and I've always been very conscious of that in my own books about postwar Britain, is that it's very easy to be misled by the most articulate, the most highly educated.

这对你来说是一个主题，对吧？

And what what that's a theme for you, isn't it?

那就是，那些更张扬的，我想，孔雀，还有如果母孔雀也有戏剧性故事的话——这不错。

That the the more the more the peacocks, and I guess the peahens, if peahens had dramatic tales That's good.

是的。

Yeah.

它们在视觉上更加醒目。

That they are they are more visually striking.

因此，它们才是那些出现在书籍中、获得纪录片关注的人

And so they're the ones who appear in the books and get the documentaries and

是的。

Yes.

出现在明信片之类的东西上。

Appear on the postcards and things.

而我想，你会告诉我，绝大多数人其实从未反抗过。

Whereas, I guess, you'll tell me the vast majority never rebelled.

没有。

No.

他们没有。

They didn't.

他们只是去上学，上大学或者找份工作，然后长大成人，

Kinda went to school, went to university or got a job or and became adults and

我的一个典型观点是，当滚石乐队因持有毒品被警方逮捕并入狱时，米克·贾格尔和基思·理查兹，《泰晤士报》曾发表社论称他们受到了不公正的惩罚，应该被释放。

I mean, two sort of my one of my standard facts on this is when the Rolling Stones were busted by the police for drug possession and were sent to prison, Mick Jagger and Keith Richards, the the Times published an editorial saying they had been unfairly punished and they should be let out.

谁会去伤害一只蝴蝶呢？

Who breaks the butterfly on a wheel?

没错。

Exactly.

由威廉·里斯-莫格撰写。

William written by William Reesmogg.

是的，由雅各布·里斯写的。

By Jacob Rees yes.

是的。

Yeah.

但民意调查显示，年轻人自己认为他们应该被监禁。

But opinion polls showed that young people themselves thought they should be imprisoned.

所以，年轻人并不站在这一边，这不是一个老精英阶层与自由派年轻一代之间的对立。

So young people were not on the side of it wasn't an an old establishment versus a a liberal younger generation.

实际上，年轻一代也同样如此，如果你看一下六十年代年轻人的普遍民意调查，他们非常反对移民。

And, actually, the the younger generation were just as and if you look at polls generally of young people in the sixties, they're very anti immigration.

他们也非常反对学生抗议。

They're very anti student protest.

他们在许多道德观念上都非常文化保守。

They're very culturally conservative on lots of kind of morals.

但那不是关键吗？你不仅仅是在反抗你的父母。

But isn't that I mean, that's that's a crucial because you're not just rebelling against your parents.

你还在与你那些无聊的同龄人划清界限。

You're also distinguishing yourself from your your boring peers.

是的。

Yeah.

这就是为什么会有那些杂志。

And that's why you have the magazine.

所以，如果你读的是正确的杂志，去的是正确的商店，部落就是这样形成的。

So if you're you're reading the right magazines and you're going to the right shops, that's where tribes come from.

也许他们从来就不是一个群体。

And perhaps They're never a group.

他们本来就同质化。

They're already homogenous.

是的。

Yeah.

但也许青少年身份一旦广泛传播，反抗的机会就会减少，因为基本上每个人都穿着所谓叛逆的服装，而这种服装早已不再具有叛逆意味。

But perhaps the kind of teenage identity, the more it's percolated out, the less opportunity there is to to rebel because basically everybody is wearing, you know, kind of rebellious clothing is no longer rebellious.

它不再有那种吸引力。

It doesn't have that kind of cache.

是的。

Yeah.

但我也在想，汤姆，你提出这个问题让我开始怀疑，我们对青少年的认知还能持续多久，青少年这个群体还会存在多久。

But also I wonder whether, Tom, actually you you're asking that question makes me wonder whether the our sense of the teenager will have any how long teenagers will exist for.

换句话说，我们可以同意，在1944年之前就已存在青春期少年，但‘青少年’这个概念是有历史的。

So in other words, we can agree that adolescents existed before nineteen forty four, but teenagers have a history.

他们有一个起点。

They had a starting point.

但你可以说，青少年文化也会有一个终点，尤其是因为现在年幼的孩子也有更多钱，而成年人正如你所说，正变得越来越像‘大孩子’。

But you could argue that teenage culture will have an endpoint, especially as younger children now have more money as well, and that adults are, as you say, becoming kiddults.

青少年这个概念似乎正变得越来越少

The very concept of a teenager seems less to have less

是的。

Yeah.

也许吧。

Maybe.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

所以也许它会

So maybe it'll

成为一种有趣的怪癖

be a a kind of interesting foible of

二十世纪晚期的。

Sort of late twentieth century.

文化

Culture

还有就是，是的。

and yeah.

我的意思是，很有趣。

I mean, fascinating.

我觉得我们快结束了。

I think we're closing to an end.

我能提一个问题吗？这个问题来自我一位老朋友，我们当青少年时认识的。

Could I just put in one question, which is from an old friend of mine, and we met when we were teenagers.

哦，真好。

Oh, nice.

查琳，她提了一个比较宽泛的问题。

Charlene, who has sent in a a broad brush question.

她问，青少年认为没有成年人理解他们，这似乎是理所当然的。

And she asks, it's just a given that teenagers think no adult understands them.

所以那就是是的。

So that's Yeah.

凯文，那个青少年。

Kevin the teenager.

但哪个

But which

哪个时代是当青少年最糟糕的时期？为什么？

era was the very worst time to be a teenager and why?

哇。

Wow.

我的意思是，我认为对青少年来说最糟糕的时期，说到底对每个人来说都是一样的。

I mean, I guess the answer to that is worst to a teenager is what you know, it's it's gonna be the same for everyone.

我的意思是，如果你正被屠杀，是的。

I mean, if you're being slaughtered Yeah.

被一支入侵的军队屠杀，其实没什么区别。

By some invading army, it doesn't really make a difference.

所以这样问问题是没有意义的，对吧？

So there's no point in asking the question that way, is there?

我想，要回答这个问题，我们应该具体针对青少年，而不是仅仅说你正身处战争中。

I suppose the question answering the question, we should answer as in specifically a teenager rather than just you're in the middle of a war

不过话说回来，当波斯人攻陷米利都，结束爱奥尼亚起义时，公元前五世纪初，所有成年人都被屠杀。

and Well, having said although having said that, when the Persians stormed Miletus, end of the Ionian revolt, early fifth century, All the adults were slaughtered.

女孩们被掳走，送入后宫。

The girls were carried off to the harems.

男孩们被阉割，带走成为宦官。

The boys were castrated and carried off to be eunuchs.

显然，生殖器 mutilation 在这之中一直是一个持续的主题。

And, obviously, genital mutilation has been a running theme in this.

这几乎是连续第三个播客了。

This is the third podcast almost in a row.

所以我觉得这会很糟糕。

So I think that would be bad.

我的意思是，我不希望自己是个 teenager 在

I mean, I wouldn't want to be a teenager in

是的。

Yeah.

但那只是针对爱奥尼亚的米利都的具体情况。

But that's not that's a specific Ionian Miletus.

那是特定的事件，是运气不好，但并不意味着整个文化就是反青少年的，对吧？

That that's a specific that's a a bad bit of luck, but it doesn't mean that the culture itself was anti teenage, does it?

我认为，当代际差距最明显的时候，比如在八十年代初。

I think if there's a moment when it's when the the generation gap is well, I mean, in the early eighties.

我的意思是，八十年代初英国有些学校会在夏季学期教孩子们如何申请失业救济，因为他们知道，是的。

I mean, there were some schools in Britain in the early eighties where they gave children lessons on how to sign on for the doll before in the in the summer term because they knew that Yeah.

几乎所有的学生，160个人，都会离开学校，而镇上只有两个工作机会。

Almost all of them, a 160 people would leave the school, and there are only two jobs in the town.

我的意思是，那真是当 teenager 的糟糕时期。

I mean, that's a pretty bad time to be a teenager.

所以我认为，二十世纪八十年代初可能是青年失业率最严重的经济时期了，是的。

So I think the early eighties is probably economically when massive youth unemployment as bad as Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

你可以想象。

You could imagine.

我的意思是，实际上，过去三十年法国的情况一直如此，不是吗？

I mean, actually, that's been the situation of France for about the last thirty years, isn't it?

他们有着25%的青年失业率，这会

They have 25% youth unemployment, which would

是的，我不会说上世纪三十年代的德国算在内，因为我们不把那时的人算作青少年，因为'青少年'这个词当时还没出现。

be I wouldn't say that that nineteen thirties Germany would would count as we're not counting them as teenagers because the idea the the word hasn't been invented yet.

是的。

Yeah.

因为我觉得

Because I think

这在某种程度上也是一个特例，不是吗？

it's also a bit of a special case, isn't it?

我的意思是，我相信一定有人在青少年时期经历过第三帝国，但也许刚好没被征召参战，或者是在战争即将结束时才被征召，对他们来说，青少年时期可能并没有那么糟糕，尤其是如果他们来自支持纳粹的家庭，而且不是犹太人之类的。

I mean, I'm sure there must be people who or the really interesting thing is there must have been people who lived through the Third Reich as teenagers, but perhaps just missed being called up to fight in the war or right at the end for whom their teenage years may not have actually been they may not remember their teenage years specifically as as terribly bad as if they were in a family that was supporting the Nazis and, you know, they weren't Jewish or anything like that.

我的意思是，这种有趣又略带令人不安的想法是，我们之前谈到的汉堡的‘摇摆少年’，他们的生活真的那么糟糕吗？

I mean, that's the sort of interesting and quietly slightly disturbing thought that these swing kids that we were talking about in Hamburg, you know, was life terrible for them?

嗯，那是英国人

Well, it was one that British

是的。

Yeah.

我

I

觉得是空袭造成的。

think bombs it was.

针对他们。

On them.

我认为这

I think it

也很糟糕，因为他们始终面临盖世太保突袭的风险，可能会被送去劳动营，或者

was terrible also because they they were constant and, you know, under constant risk of being raided by the Gestapo and sent to labor camps or

而且，真正有趣的是。

the And I mean, what's really interesting on.

我们总是认为青少年时期。

What's really interesting is that we always think of teenage.

我们对此有很多疑问，关于理想主义。

We have tons of questions about this, about idealism.

但这种理想主义常常并不总是好事。

But that idealism can often be very it's not always a good thing.

所以理想主义，我的意思是，很多年轻人热情地支持了纳粹。

So idealism I mean, lots of young people really enthusiastically enthusiastically supported supported the the Nazis.

纳粹。

Nazis.

有一个非常著名的记载，来自一个叫梅莉塔·马什曼的女孩，她谈到自己在1933年1月的柏林，充满青少年的热情与理想主义，观看了火炬游行。

There's a very famous account by a girl called Melita Mashman, and she talks about, you know, she was a a young girl in Berlin in January 1933 brimming with kind of teenage enthusiasm and teenage idealism, and she watches the torch lit parade.

希特勒刚刚成为德国总理，她完全沉浸在对国家的热爱和加入这场运动的渴望中，这种我们都能理解的青少年理想主义，却不幸被错用到了这个可憎的事业中。

Hitler has just become chancellor of Germany and she is absolutely suffused with this love of country, desire to join the movement, you know, all this sort of teenage idealism that we can recognize, and of course, it's utterly misapplied into this obscene project.

但我的意思是，

But the I mean,

认为青少年天生具有理想主义，这其实是法国大革命遗留下来的一种观念，不是吗？

the idea that teenagers properly are idealistic, mean, that's that's another legacy of the French Revolution, isn't it?

我的意思是，我们之前讨论过，许多革命者都非常年轻。

I mean, we we talked about this, about how so many of the revolutionaries were very, very young.

是的。

Yes.

我想这与浪漫主义时期也相契合，那时许多诗人也非常年轻。

Guess it blends with the romantic period where lots of the kind of the poets are very young as well.

我觉得这就是那个观点的来源。

I think that's I mean, I think that's where that idea comes from.

因为，确实，在更早的时期，从中世纪到古代世界，我们如今称之为青少年的人本质上是野蛮且危险的，必须被驯服和改造，不过说到这儿，我觉得这正是一个完美的收尾。

Because, certainly, the, you know, the the the premise for earlier periods through the Middle Ages back to to the ancient world is that people we would now call teenagers are essentially feral and dangerous and have to be broken in and tamed and dis well, on that note, I think that's the perfect note on which to end.

我当青少年的时候就不喜欢青少年。

I didn't even like teenagers when I was a teenager.

这个人，他们无法让他闭嘴。

The man, they cannot gag.

他知道他去过那里。

He knows he's been there.

那是威廉·海格。

That's William Haig.

这是威廉·海格在撰写《世界中的大学》时的口号。

That was William Haig's slogan when he was writing college in the world.

他去哪儿了？

Where has he been?

无处可寻。

Nowhere.

他怎么了？

What happened to him?

他去过里士满。

He'd been to Richmond.

大概就这些了，我想。

That was about it, I think.

我觉得这是个完美的结尾，不是吗？

I think that's the perfect note, isn't it?

我该做什么？

Which do I?

是的。

Yeah.

是。

Is.

确实是。

It is.

超级青少年Sawaway剧集。

Super teenage Sawaway episode.

我认为我们当然应该提到威廉·黑格，他正是在青少年时期成名的。

I think we should William Hague, of course, did come to fame as a teenager.

这就是为什么。

That's why

我提到他，多米尼克。

I mentioned him, Dominic.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yes.

你总是应该尝试以威廉·黑格或其他失败的保守党领袖来结束每一期播客。

You should always try to end every podcast on William Hague or other failed Tory leaders.

这是一档以青少年为主题，并以威廉·黑格结尾的播客。

This is the podcast that has a theme on teenagers and ends with William Hague.

非常感谢您的收听。

Thanks ever so much for listening.

我们几天后再见，届时将讨论阿兹特克人，并分享一些关于阿兹特克时期儿童和青少年的有趣细节。

We will see you in a few days where we are talking about the Aztecs, and we have some quite interesting details about children and young people in the Asnip period.

所以请务必继续关注。

So do tune in then.

再次进行温和的残害。

Gentle mutilation once again.

那我们再见。

See you then.

还有温和的残害。

And gentle mutilation.

那我们再见。

See you then.

再见。

Bye.

感谢收听《余史》。

Thanks for listening to the rest is history.

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网址是 restishistorypod.com。

That's restishistorypod.com.