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我们感到非常惊讶，说这就像阿马迪斯传说中所描述的魔法景象，因为那些高耸的塔楼、神庙和从水中升起的建筑，全部由石砌而成。
We were amazed and said that it was like the enchantments they tell of in the legend of Amardis on account of the great towers and the temples and the buildings rising from the water and all of it built of masonry.
我们的有些士兵问，我们所看到的这一切是不是一场梦。
And some of our soldiers asked whether the things that we saw were not a dream.
这是征服者贝尔纳尔·迪亚斯在1519年8月11日回忆阿兹特克伟大城市特诺奇蒂特兰的最初遗址，那天正是西班牙人首次见到这座伟大阿兹特克首都的日子。
That was the conquistador Bernal Diaz, remembering the initial site of the great Aztec city Tenochtitlan on the 11/08/1519, the date on which the Spanish first saw the great Aztec capital.
多米尼克，这可以说是世界历史上最浪漫、最戏剧性的时刻之一，不是吗？
And Dominic, it's one of the the kind of the most romantic and dramatic moments in the whole world history, isn't it?
你是《我是》的粉丝吗？
Are you a fan of I am.
这个伟大故事的戏剧性吗？
The drama of this great story?
汤姆，这正是我想用的词——浪漫。
Tom, that's exactly the word I was gonna use, romantic.
我记得小时候大约七八岁的时候读过这本书，里面讲的是头戴羽毛头饰的男人、沾满鲜血的刀具、人祭，还有西班牙人冲进来，阿兹特克人以为他们是神，诸如此类关于阿兹特克故事的刻板印象。
I remember having this book as a I don't know, about a seven or eight year old as a seven or eight year old boy, and this the men with feathered headdresses, bloody knives, human sacrifice, the sort of Spanish storming in there, the Aztecs thinking they were gods, you know, all the sort of stereotypes of the of the Aztec stories.
我们在英国读过这些内容吗？
We've read them have we read about it in Britain?
阿兹特克人以为
And the Aztecs thinking
世界末日即将来临。
that the the world the end of the world was coming.
是的。
Yeah.
这种
This sort
末日景象，对吧？就是《启示录》那种，对不对？
of apocalypse mean, it's that apocalypto, isn't it?
好吧。
Okay.
我猜这本书很可能是梅尔·吉布森年轻时写的。
I imagine this book was probably written by Mel Gibson in a sort of as a very young man, maybe.
我不确定他是否分得清阿兹特克人和玛雅人，但那是另一个问题了。
Well, I'm not sure he knows the difference between the Aztecs and the Mayas, but that's a whole different issue.
这确实是伟大的故事之一，但我们也可能——尤其是在欧洲——倾向于以西班牙人的视角来看待它。
Well, it it is one of the the the great stories, but it is also a story that we perhaps particularly in Europe tend to see through the eyes of the Spanish.
当然，阿兹特克人是历史上最杰出、最具创造力的文明之一。
And of course, the the Aztecs are one of the most remarkable, one of the most creative civilizations that's ever existed.
但对我们来说，很难看到他们如何看待自己。
But it's hard for us, I think, to see them as they saw themselves.
因此，我非常兴奋地介绍我们节目的第一位跨大西洋嘉宾、第一位美国嘉宾——卡米拉·汤森，她的著作《第五纪元：阿兹特克人的新历史》去年出版，是我去年读过的最好的书。
And so that's why I'm massively excited that our very first transatlantic guest, our first American guest on the show, we have Camilla Townsend whose whose book came out last year, Fifth Sum, a new history of the Aztecs, was absolutely the best book that I read last year.
我是在圣诞节前读完这本书的。
I read it kind of just before Christmas.
你知道，我当时正在整理我年度最佳书籍的清单。
You know, and I was kinda doing my best books of the of the year list.
如果我是在做清单时刚读完这本书，它绝对会排在第一位。
And and honestly, if I'd read it by the time I was doing their list, I would it would have been number one across it.
这本书精彩之处在于，它尽可能以阿兹特克人自己的视角来讲述他们的历史。
And the thing that's brilliant about it is that it gives you a history of the Aztecs through Aztec eyes insofar as as as that is possible.
所以，卡米拉，非常感谢你来参加节目。
So, Camilla, thanks so much for coming on.
你愿意来和我们谈论阿兹特克人，我真是非常高兴。
Absolutely delighted that you've, you've agreed to come and join us and talk to us about the Aztecs.
哦，太感谢了。
Oh, thank you so much.
真正该感到荣幸的是我。
The honor really is mine.
我很高兴能来到这里。
I'm delighted to be here.
多米尼克和我刚才对西班牙征服的描述可能并不完全准确。
So Dominic and I gave a a perhaps not entirely accurate account of the Spanish conquest there.
简单来说，你的书涵盖了阿兹特克历史的整个脉络。
What just just very briefly, I mean, your book, you covered the whole span of of Aztec history.
但那里有两个我们提到过的神话。
But there there were two myths there that I think we we hit on.
一个是阿兹特克人认为西班牙人是神，另一个是他们认为西班牙人的征服意味着世界的终结。
One is that, the the Aztecs thought that the Spanish were gods, and the other was that they thought that with the Spanish conquest, the the end of the world was happening.
而你非常有说服力地证明了这两点都不属实。
And and you demonstrate pretty conclusively that neither of those were true.
没错。
Right.
你准确地指出了关于他们历史的刻板印象——这种印象不仅在欧洲流传，在美国乃至墨西哥也普遍存在。
You have hit very much on the sort of stereotypical view of their history as it's told not only in Europe, but here in The United States and to some extent even in Mexico as well.
事实其实既更平凡，又更惊人。
The truth was, I would say both more mundane and more spectacular.
他们原本是今天美国西南部地区的人。
They were originally people from what is today the American Southwest.
他们与这里著名的人群，比如霍皮人，有着共同的祖先，并且在几百年间逐渐南下，有点像成吉思汗南下进入中国。
They shared common ancestors with, people that are famous here, like the Hopi, and they came down over the course of a couple hundred years, a little bit like Genghis Khan coming down into China.
渐渐地，这些说纳瓦特尔语（阿兹特克语）的人占领了墨西哥中部谷地。
And gradually, these Nahuatl speaking, people, Aztec language speaking people, took over the Central Valley Of Mexico.
对吧？
Right?
在他们之前，那里已经存在过伟大的高度文明的农耕民族，但这些人是征服者。
There had been a great high civilizations farming peoples there before, but these guys were conquerors.
明白吗？
Okay?
他们占领了整个谷地。
And they took over the valley.
当西班牙人到来时，他们已经统治墨西哥约一百年，是当之无愧的最强势力。
They had been, sort of the rulers par excellence, the most powerful guys in Mexico, for about a hundred years when the Spaniards arrived.
明白吗？
Okay?
他们进行了抵抗。
And they put up a fight.
没有任何证据表明他们真的认为科尔特斯或他身边的人是神。
There is no evidence that they actually thought Cortez or anyone with him was a god.
当时爆发了一场激烈的战争。
They there was quite a war.
这是一场非常艰难的城市战斗，整场战争持续了几年，但在城内，仅仅几个月内就死了很多人。
It was a really tough urban combat, for well, the the whole war took a couple of years, but within the city, a a couple of months, many died.
欧洲人带来的疾病起到了一定作用，但并非决定性因素。
The diseases that the Europeans brought with them helped, although they were not the defining factor.
在这场征服之后，西班牙人继续依赖阿兹特克人。
And then after the this conquest, the Spaniards continued to rely on the Aztecs.
他们实际上是通过阿兹特克人进行统治的。
They ruled through them, in effect.
我们经常听说的著名西班牙帝国，其在墨西哥的基地，非常依赖于与阿兹特克人的合作，依靠阿兹特克领袖帮助他们建立控制。
The famous Spanish empire that we hear so much about and and its home base in Mexico depended very much, their ability to, work with the Aztecs and have the Aztecs, the Aztec leaders help them to establish control.
所以，汤姆和我所熟知的阿兹特克人，你应该称之为墨西加人，他们是从其他地方迁徙而来的。
So the Aztecs the the people that Tom and I know as the Aztecs, you would call that the Mexica, they've come from somewhere else.
所以他们来自现在被称为美国的地方。
So they've come from what is now The United States.
对吧？
Right?
当我们谈论他们是原住民时，这个词其实很模糊，因为他们自己也像是移民和入侵者，就像西班牙人一样。
So when we talk about them as in in as indigenous, I mean, that's quite a slippery term because they're migrants, invaders themselves as the Spanish were.
他们是移民入侵者，不过那是他们的祖先。
They were migrant invaders, although it was their ancestors.
也就是说，科尔特斯和他的同伴们所遇到的那些人，当时已经在那里生活了。
That is the people that, that Cortes and his fellows met had been living there then.
他们在那个岛上已经生活了一百年，在那个地区也已经住了几百年。
They've been living on the island where they were for one hundred years, and they had been in that area for a couple hundred years.
但他们的祖先，即直接的祖先，是从如今的美国地区迁徙而来的，而那些人又是从更北的地方迁徙过来的。
But their ancestors, their immediate ancestors were migrants from what is today The United States, and those people were migrants from further north.
也就是说，他们是跨越白令海峡而来的亚洲人群。
That is, it was Asian peoples who came across the Bering Strait.
当时在冰河时期存在一条陆桥。
There was a land bridge at the time, during the ice ages.
他们至少经历了三次主要的迁徙浪潮。
They came in at least three major waves.
因此，在美国这里对此有过一些政治上的讨论。
So there has been some political discussion of that here in The United States.
我们说这些人是土著，但实际上他们最初来自亚洲。
Well, we say these people are indigenous, but in fact, they originally came from Asia.
但我想，当一群人在这里生活的时间比任何欧洲人踏上这片土地的时间都要长至少一万年时，我们可以说他们是土著。
But I think when people have been present for at least ten thousand years longer than than any Europeans who have ever touched foot on the land, we can say that they are indigenous.
卡米拉，关于阿兹特克人和墨西加人如何来到如今的中美洲的故事。
And Camilla, the the story of how of of how the axe Aztecs and Mexica come to what is now Central Mexico.
我们知道这一点，是因为阿兹特克人的后裔把这段历史记录了下来？
We know this because the descendants of of the Aztecs wrote this down?
我的意思是
I mean
是的。
Yes.
嗯，我们通过三种方式了解这一点。
Well, we know it in three ways.
考古学家研究陶器等物品、文明遗迹的风格，能够大致判断哪个文化在何时迁移到了何处。
Archaeologists look at pottery, etcetera, styles of of, remnants of their of their civilization, and they can tell, you know, who which culture went where by roughly when.
我们之所以知道，是因为语言学家帮助了我们，那些研究历史语言学的人。
We know it because the linguists help us, people who study historical linguistics.
正是他们揭示了有多波移民迁入。
They are the ones who have shown how many waves of migrants came.
明白吗？
Okay?
此外，我们主要通过细节了解这一点：纳瓦特尔语的使用者，也就是阿兹特克人，确实记录下了他们的历史。
And then we mostly know it in in the details that we know it because the Nahuatl or the people who spoke Nahuatl, okay, the Aztecs, okay, they did write down their histories.
在欧洲人到来之前，他们用图画文字记录；欧洲人到来之后，他们学会了使用罗马字母，以便阅读《圣经》。
They wrote them down in pictoglyphs before the Europeans arrived, and after the Europeans arrived, they took the Roman alphabet that they had been taught so that they could read the Bible.
这些年轻学者、年轻学生们回到家中，向他们的叔叔、祖父、祖母询问，请告诉我这段历史，或者告诉我那段祷词。
And they went home, these young scholars, young young students went home and spoke to their uncles and grandfathers and grandmothers and said, please tell me the history or tell me the prayer.
告诉我你曾经讲过的故事。
Tell me the story that you used to tell.
他们把它记录了下来。
And they wrote it.
他们逐字拼读出来。
They sounded it out.
他们将其转录下来。
They transcribed it.
他们用罗马字母书写，但用的是自己的语言。
They wrote it down using the Roman alphabet, but in their own language.
所以，如果我们研究纳瓦特尔语——我已经研究了二十多年了——我们就能读懂这些充满激情的表达、复杂的故事、诗歌，甚至一些宗教话语等等。
So if we study Nahuat, and I have studied Nahuat for more than twenty years now, we can read, these, you know, full throated expressions, complex stories, poems, even some religious utterings, etcetera.
我的意思是，
I mean,
我认为这就是为什么我觉得你的书如此富有启发性，同时也如此感人，因为如果你研究罗马历史，你对高卢人或日耳曼人的了解基本上都来自罗马作家的记载，或许可以与考古发现相互印证。
and I think that's why I I found your book so revelatory, but also so moving because if if if you, if you study Roman history, basically, what you know about the Gauls or the Germans comes from Roman writers, and you can match it up perhaps with with archaeology or whatever.
但你没有高卢人自己对凯撒征服的记述。
But you don't have Gallic accounts of Caesar's conquest.
你也没有日耳曼人讲述他们自认为起源的记录。
You don't have the Germans saying where they thought they came from.
但在这个案例中，那些曾经被征服、身份长期被压制的人们，突然在你的书中获得了发声的机会。
But but kind of with this, suddenly, people who've been conquered and who essentially, you know, their identity has long been suppressed are being given a voice in your book.
听到他们亲自讲述，令人无比动容且充满力量。
And it's incredibly moving and powerful to hear them speak.
你知道，我觉得打动你的、让你感到吸引的，其实正是同样触动我、让我着迷的那一点。
You know, I think what has grabbed you, what you have found compelling is really the same element that that grabbed me or that I found compelling.
也就是说，这几乎像是我们突然空降到某种非凡的情境中，正如你所说，这种情境在其他时代和地方也曾存在，但通常被层层时间与文字掩埋，我们无法直接接触或窥见。
That is, it's almost as if we're parachuting in to some remarkable situation that, as you say, has existed in other times and places, but usually is so buried over in the layers of time and writing that that we don't have direct access or direct window to it.
但这些在16世纪仍尚未完全定居、以农耕为主但仍部分依赖狩猎、生活方式仍保留着许多古老传统的族群，学会了书写，并记录下了各种各样的故事，如今我们能够阅读，从而以某种方式聆听他们——而这一点，正如你所说，我们对高卢人甚至古代不列颠人是做不到的。
But these people who had not been sedentary for very long, who, who were farmers but still were also partly hunters, who were still living in in some very ancient ways, were there in the fifteen hundreds, learned to write and wrote all sorts of things about how you know, all sorts of stories that we now can can read and and hence listen to, in a way that, as you say, we can't do for the Gauls or or even for the ancient Britons.
这真的非常了不起。
It's really quite remarkable.
这种长期定居者与非定居者之间的差异与共通之处，令人得以清晰看到。
That sort of the the the clash of difference that one is able to see, and yet the commonalities too, between people who have been sedentary for millennia and those who haven't.
所以这非常迷人。
So it it's it's fascinating.
是的。
Yes.
卡米拉，在我们回到征服及其反应之前，我想问一个问题，因为听众们提出了大量关于他们自身对过去的认知的问题。
Camilla, before we come back to the conquest and their reactions to the conquest, I just wanted to ask a question because we've had tons of questions from listeners about their own sense of their past.
他们已经完成了这段旅程，来到了墨西哥的中央山谷。
So they've made this journey, and they've come to the Central Valley in Mexico.
我们的听众之一，约书亚·特里，想知道他们对奥尔梅克或玛雅等更早的文化了解多少。
And one of our listeners, Joshua Terry, has asked how much are they aware of preceding cultures like the Olmec or the Maya.
一位叫法老人的听众则询问了托尔特克人。
A list called pharaoh man has asked about the Toltecs.
那么，他们对自己作为断裂者的认知有多少，又有多深地认同自己是之前中美洲文明的继承者呢？
So how how much do they have a sense of themselves as the how much are they a break, And how much are they the heirs to previous sort of Mesoamerican civilizations?
阿兹特克人非常有趣，因为他们既把自己视为奇奇梅卡人——也就是野蛮人、原始人、使用弓箭的硬汉，从北方南下的人；同时也认为自己是数百年来在墨西哥中部过着高度文明农耕生活的人的后裔。
The Aztecs are fascinating because they see themselves both as Chichimeca, meaning sort of savage people, wild people, people with bows and arrows, tough guys, okay, who came down from the North, but also the heirs of the people who have been living as a sort of high culture civilized farmers in Central Mexico for for for centuries.
这是因为他们与当地人通婚了。
And that is because they intermarried with them.
这些群体大多是男性，甚至有些是全男性群体，他们快速迁徙、征战，向南推进。
These were mostly male or or even some cases, all male groups that were on the move rapidly, making war, moving to the South.
无论走到哪里，他们都与当地居民通婚，并逐渐被当地文化所同化。
And everywhere they went, they intermarried with and became acculturated with the people that where they were arriving who lived where they were arriving.
因此，他们认为自己是这两者的共同继承者。
So they felt themselves to be the heirs of both.
在他们的文献中，你可以看到他们为自己是托尔特克人、艺术家、谷地居民而感到自豪，同时也为自己是奇奇梅卡人——即野蛮战士——而自豪。
And in their writings, you see them take great pride, in being Toltecs, artists, people of the valley, and also Chichimax, you know, savage warriors.
他们珍视自己身上的这两面。
They like both halves of themselves.
所以这是否
So is it
有点像盎格鲁-撒克逊人或法兰克人前往罗马，既觉得自己是野蛮人，又是这一非凡文明的继承者
a bit like Anglo Saxons or Franks going to Rome and feeling both they are barbarians, but they are also the heirs of this remarkable
我确实这么认为。
I do think so.
我觉得这个类比非常恰当。
I think that's a very good analogy.
没错。
Right.
并且为这两方面都感到真正的自豪。
And feeling truly proud of both sides.
因为阿兹特克国王们会去特奥蒂瓦坎朝圣，对吧？那地方就像——它和古罗马是同一时期建造的，不是吗？
Because the Aztec kings would would go on pilgrimage, wouldn't they, to Teotihuacan, which is this as as kind of I mean, it was built the same time as ancient Rome, isn't it?
它建于公元第一个千年。
It's first first millennium AD.
我是说，这些令人惊叹的金字塔，后来却因神秘原因被遗弃了。
I mean, this kind of astonishing pyramids and and then abandoned for mysterious reasons.
最引人注目的前身文化无疑是特奥蒂瓦坎，这个词实际上源自纳瓦特尔语或阿兹特克语，意思是‘诸神诞生之地’。
The most remarkable preceding culture was definitely Teotihuacan, which is actually a Nahuatl or Aztec word sort of place where where gods come into being in effect.
真是个了不起的名字。
So Such a great name.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Right.
我们至今仍沿用阿兹特克人的叫法，因为我们根本不知道居住在那里的人们究竟说哪种语言。
And we still know it by the Aztec, word because we don't know what the people we don't know what language the people who actually lived there even spoke.
哇。
Wow.
它它 我们
It it We
我们甚至无法确定。
don't even know they We can't be sure.
它可能是一种相关的语言。
It may have been a related language.
也就是说，他们也可能说一种源自如今美国西南部的语言，但我们无法确定。
That is they too may have spoken a language that had come from what is now the American Southwest, but we can't be certain.
因此，阿兹特克人显然非常了解这个地方。
So the the Aztecs clearly were very much aware of this place.
它在汤姆之前提到的他们到达之前就已经神秘地衰落了，但考古遗迹仍然如此庞大且令人印象深刻。
It had fallen into decline mysteriously as as Tom has said before they arrived, but the archaeological remains were still so large and so impressive.
好的。
Okay.
它几乎就像一个旅游景点，如果你能用这个有点时代错位的词的话，我想‘朝圣’这个词更合适，汤姆。
That it was as almost a tourist site, if you can use that word anachronistically that I guess pilgrimage your word is better, Tom.
他们会前来朝圣，这是神圣的。
They would make pilgrimage It's holy.
我想这有点神圣，不是吗？
I guess it's kind of holy, isn't it?
是的。
Yes.
当然了。
Oh, absolutely.
幽灵出没，但他们把自己的起源神话就安放在了那里。
Ghost haunted, but They and they placed their own origin myth right there.
也就是说，他们说这就是一切的开端。
That is they said this this is where it all began.
明白吗？
Okay?
他们也知道，他们是作为人类从北方迁徙而来的。
They also knew that they came as humans down from the North.
那些真实的故事、真实的历史，依然存在于他们的记忆中。
Those real stories, real histories were still present in their minds.
但当他们在第五个时代之初讲述这个故事时——也就是第五个太阳，我的书名就是《第五个太阳》——他们认为我们正生活在第五个太阳之下，并且相信这个太阳诞生于墨西哥谷地中心那个极其神奇的地方。
But when they told the story at the beginning of this fifth age, the the fifth sun, my book title is that the fifth sun, they feel felt that we were living under the fifth sun and they felt that that sun had been born at this incredibly miraculous place in the in the heart of the Valley Of Mexico.
那么，住在周边的人们怎么看待他们呢？
And what do the guys what do the people who live roundabout think of them?
他们认为他们是入侵者、霸凌者，还是别的什么？
Do they think of them as intruders, as as as bullies, as as what?
你知道，这很复杂。
You know, it's complicated.
在某种程度上，是的。
On one level, yes.
阿兹特克人确实是入侵者和霸凌者，你知道，他们的人——墨西哥的原住民——以在科尔特斯到来时与他结盟而闻名。
They were the Aztecs were intruders and bullies, and, you know, their their people the indigenous people of Mexico are famous for having allied with Cortes, when he arrived.
但另一方面，阿兹特克人非常擅长与被征服和混居的人群合作，他们与许多周边社区的王室和贵族血统通婚。
On the other hand, the Aztecs were very good at sort of working with the people that they were conquering and intermixing with, and they intermarried with the royal houses, the noble lineages of many different surrounding communities.
因此，生活在中央谷地核心地带、围绕着大湖居住的人们——阿兹特克人就住在大湖中央的一个岛上。
So the people in the very heart of the Central Valley that who lived around the Great Lake, the Aztecs lived on an island in the middle of this Great Lake.
许多人认为自己是某种伟大政府体系中不可分割的一部分。
Many of them felt that they were part and parcel of a sort of a state, we might say, of a of a great government.
而且许多人在这个议会中拥有发言权。
And many of them had voices in that in the council.
因此，说所有周边的原住民都憎恨阿兹特克人是不正确的。
So it really isn't true that all indigenous people all around hated the Aztecs.
但你离得越远，被征服者的感觉就越强烈。
But the further away you got, the more conquered people felt.
毫无疑问，有些人非常乐意与西班牙人结盟。
And there's no question that some of them were only too happy to ally with the Spaniards.
你能谈谈第五个时代是如何开始的这个神话吗？
Could you mentioned about the the kind of the the myth of how what the fifth age begins.
我们收到了来自EKG的一个问题。
So could we've got we've got a question from from ek EKG.
他们的宇宙观是什么样子的？
What does their cosmos look like?
他们如何看待太阳、月亮和星星？
How do they think of the sun, moon, and stars?
但还要把这个范围扩大开来。
But also broadening that out.
我的意思是，你得理解他们如何看待宇宙，才能理解他们的文明。
I mean, you need to kind of understand how they how they see the cosmos, I guess, to understand their civilization.
那么，他们与这座宏伟的废弃城市相关的神话是什么？
So what what is the myth that that that they identify with this kind of great abandoned city?
在那里究竟发生了什么？
What what is it that happens there?
他们认为自己的直系祖先是一个名叫纳纳瓦辛的人。
They felt that their direct ancestor, it was a guy named, Nana Watzin.
第四纪、第四太阳曾灾难性地崩塌，所有生灵——神、人、动物——只有极少数幸存者，生活在彻底的黑暗中。
And that the the fourth age, the fourth sun had imploded disastrously, and people and all beings, divine human animals were those few that survived were living in utter darkness.
众神降临，说：我们需要一个勇敢而伟大的存在跳入火中。
And the gods came and said, we need a a brave and great being to jump into a fire.
从那之后，将诞生新的太阳。
And from that, will emerge a new sun.
从那火焰中，勇气将涌现，新的太阳将升起。
From that, courage will the the fire will take and a new sun will emerge.
这时，一个充满自夸、极度自恋的人站了出来，说：‘我来吧。’
And a a sort of a a guy with a lot of braggadocio, a guy with a lot of self love stepped forward and said, I will do it.
明白吗？
Okay?
众神说：‘好的。’
And the gods said, okay.
还有别人愿意吗？
Is there anybody else?
我的意思是，没人愿意主动承担这么可怕的使命。
I mean, nobody else wanted to volunteer for such a terrible task.
但最终，正如一位神所说：‘我们需要后备人选。’
But eventually, as one of the gods said, well, we we we need backup.
于是他们选中了纳纳瓦辛，一个非常谦逊、并不想承担这项任务的人。
So they chose Nanahuatzin, a rather humble guy who didn't want to do it.
他不想死，但他心里想：毕竟众神对我很好，我经历了那么多可怕的时光都活下来了。
He didn't want to die, but he thought to himself, well, the gods have been good to me after all I've survived, you know, horrible times.
我在这里。
Here I am.
我必须回应这个召唤。
I I need to respond to the call.
我必须做该做的事。
I need to do what needs doing.
于是他答应了。
So he agreed.
他们给那位自大狂赐予了一套华丽的服饰，却只给这位被挑中的替补者一顶小小的纸冠。
And they gave a great costume to the to the vainglorious guy, and they gave just a little paper crown to the the the understudy that they had handpicked.
当然，正如你可能想象的那样，当时刻到来时，那位伟大的英雄却无法鼓起勇气跳入火中，自焚而亡。
Well, of course, as you might imagine, when the time came, the great hero could not find it in himself to jump into the fire and burn himself to death.
他试了。
He tried.
他试了。
He tried.
他做不到。
He couldn't do it.
于是众神转过身，盯着纳纳瓦辛——阿兹特克人的祖先，他并不想这么做。
So the gods turned and stared at Nanahuatzin, the Aztec's ancestor, and he didn't wanna do it.
但他闭上眼睛，做了他必须做的事。
But he closed his eyes and did what he had to do.
他很勇敢。
He was brave.
当然，从那以后，他被焚化了，但太阳诞生了，人们从此得以永生。
And, of course, from that, you know, he he's immolated, but the son is born and and the and the people live forever after.
所以这确实非常典型地体现了他们对自身的看法。
So that that really is quite emblematic of the way that they thought about themselves.
他们认为自己是一群谦逊的人，经历过艰难时期，并找到了勇气去完成必须做的事。
That is they they thought of themselves as rather humble folk who had lived through desperate times and and found the courage to do what needed to be done.
他们实际上是所有从后来成为美国的地区南下的人群中最后到达的一批，就像最后一批抵达拥挤地区的移民。
They were the last, arrivals, actually, of all those streams of people who came down from the what will later be The United States, they were the last to arrive, almost like the last group of immigrants to arrive in a crowded area.
因此，他们觉得自己经历过艰难时刻，必须成为顽强拼搏的一群人。
And so they, saw themselves as having been through tough times, having had to be the scrappy guys.
而他们活了下来。
And they had survived.
他们为此感到自豪。
They were proud of that.
他们建造了这座令人惊叹的城市。
And they they create this incredible city.
我的意思是，我读到西班牙人的记载，你就是其中之一。
I mean, it's I I read that the Spanish account, you're you're one.
那是一座极其美丽的城市，居民们有闲暇时间和精力写诗、制作芳香的巧克力饮品，有时还会探讨道德问题。
A gloriously beautiful city filled with citizens who have the leisure time and energy to write poetry, create aromatic chocolate drinks, and sometimes debate morality.
他们的实力逐渐增强。
They grew in power.
他们最初在那个岛上定居，因为没人想要那里。
They had started on that island because nobody else wanted it.
那是一片沼泽地。
It was marshy ground.
你没法在那里种植玉米和豆子。
It's you couldn't plant corn and beans.
但他们从那片土地上艰难地培育出了一些作物，随后参与了战争。
But they they coaxed some some crops from from from that island, from the earth, and then they took part in wars.
他们在结成联盟时非常聪明、富有战略眼光，也非常擅长防止不同妻子所生的王室分支之间发生内斗。
They were very clever, very strategic about the alliances that they formed, very good about not allowing different branches of the fam of the royal family born of different women, different wives just to to start fighting with each other.
因此，他们一点一点地控制了整个山谷。
And so little by little, they really they took over the whole valley.
这实际上起到了帮助作用。
It helped actually.
结果发现，他们之所以在岛上，是因为那里可以建立一个大型市场，通过独木舟交通将散布在周围边缘的村庄连接起来。
It turned out that they were on an island because they could set up a big marketplace there and through canoe traffic could tie together villages scattered all around the edge.
这与古代地中海历史有些相似。
It's a bit comparable to ancient Mediterranean history.
你知道，我们都明白地中海帮助商人开辟了道路，
You know, we all know that the Mediterranean helped, merchant take road and
我想威尼斯也因此受益。
It helps Venice, I guess.
我的意思是，西班牙人确实会拿它来比较。
I mean, Spanish do compare it
就像威尼斯一样。
to Venice.
没错。
Right.
所以当你位于某种海域的边缘时，就能接触到更广阔的领土。
And so when when you can reach more territory when when you're on the edge of a of some sort of a sea.
因此，凭借其中心位置和精明的政治手段，他们崛起为极其强大的势力。
So they, with their central location and then their their their clever, politicking rose to be extremely powerful.
和其它强大富裕的文明一样，他们开始做些伟大的事，也做些可怕的事。
And like other powerful rich civilizations, they they started to do both great and terrible things.
你知道，他们写诗。
You know, they they wrote poetry.
他们发明了热巧克力。
They invented hot chocolate.
但他们也欺凌帝国边缘的小族群，把战争中的俘虏带回家作为祭品。
But they also beat up little people around the edges of their empire and brought, losers in these wars, home for sacrifice.
如果你们发明了热巧克力，你们就能
If invented hot chocolate, you can get away you
摆脱罪责
can get away with
相当
quite
假设这确实是事实。
a suppose that is indeed the case.
我可以问一个关于这座城市的问题吗？
Can I ask a question about the city?
所以，我的意思是，我们显然必须从西班牙人的记载中获得一些印象。
So if if I mean, we obviously must have a sense from the from the Spanish accounts.
但如果我们观察特诺奇蒂特兰，我们会看到什么？
But if we looked at Tenochtitlan and we what would we what would we see?
或者我们会听到什么、闻到什么？
Or what would we hear or smell?
或者你认为最引人注目的事物会是什么？
Or what would be the most striking things do you think?
嗯，从中心区域看，如果你从对岸、从大陆的海岸眺望这座城市，你会看到两座巨大的神庙，金字塔耸立在中央，它们被涂成白色，像是用石灰粉刷过，然后覆盖着精美的编织旗帜、挂毯。
Well, from the from the center, if you're looking down or looking at the city from across the water, from the shore of the of the mainland, you would see two great temples, pyramids rising in the center, and they would have been painted white, like with lime, like whitewash, and then covered with beautiful woven banderas, flags, tapestries.
好的。
Okay.
而在一些地方，还涂上了鲜艳的颜色。
And then in some places painted bright colors as well.
neighborhoods 围绕着神庙区域被清晰地划分开来。
The neighborhoods, were divided very clearly all around the this temple precinct.
而神庙区域也是王室居住的地方。
And and the temple precinct is also where the royals live.
但在其周围，这些社区被明确地标示出来，它们实际上源自迁徙至此的氏族或亲属群体。
But around it, they were very clearly marked neighborhoods that were actually descended from clan or kin based groups that had migrated there.
他们一直保持着对特定血统的认同。
They they had remained aware of a certain lineage.
他们各自拥有自己的神庙，整个体系组织得非常严密，以便以特定方式征收贡品或税收，每个群体在一年中的不同月份负责清理主神庙、疏通引水渠或湖岸，以及建造码头。
And they each had their own temples, these were they were organized, very highly organized so that tribute or tax was collected in a certain way, and each group worked on cleaning the main temples or cleaning the aqueducts or the lakeshore and building the docks in different months of the year.
可以说，这是一个高度集权的政府。
Very centralized government, if you will.
然后，每户人家的房子都会用一种叫做 dovi 的材料建造。
And then you would have each household would have it would be built each house built of a dovi.
围绕着一个方形庭院，分布着多座建筑。
And around a square courtyard, there would be multiple buildings.
其中一些还有二楼，尤其是为了能够种植花园，当你沿着这些井然有序的街道行走时，就能看到这些花园。
And then some of them had second floors, especially so that they could grow gardens so that you would walk down these very orderly streets.
请记住，这一切都是在过去一个世纪内建成的，因此它并没有像欧洲古城市那样自然无序地生长。
Remember, this had all been built within the past century, so it really was very it didn't grow organically and sort of in a disorderly way the way ancient European cities did.
他们在岛上对这座城市进行了规划。
They had planned this on the island.
你沿着这些整齐的街道行走，看到两层高的泥砖建筑，美丽的花朵从边缘倾泻而下，人们早已习惯饲养鸣鸟。
So you walked down these orderly streets seeing two story adobe buildings with beautiful flowers sort of cascading over the edges, and they were already in the habit of keeping songbirds.
如今，墨西哥和中美洲以普通家庭也饲养鸣鸟而闻名，但这种习惯在当时就已经开始了。
Today, Mexico and Central America are famous for the, you know, the most ordinary of households keep songbirds, but that had already started at that time.
蒙特苏马同样拥有一个动物园和一个鸟舍，收集来自各地的奇异生物，以供炫耀。
Moctezuma likewise had a sort of a zoo and an and an aviary, where different, creatures from the territories were collected so that he could show off.
是的。
Yeah.
他还会养一些身体有畸形的人。
And he and he kept people who were kind of physically deformed.
是的。
Yes.
我不知道具体程度如何，但确实在这些花园或所谓的公共空间里——我不该称它们为公共花园，因为我们并不确定它们是否对游客开放。
I don't know to what extent but it is true that in these, gardens or sort of public I shouldn't call them public gardens because they weren't, we don't know that they were necessarily open to the to tourists so to speak.
但在这些皇家花园中，有证据表明，有些人因具有某些奇特特征而被强迫留下，比如侏儒之类的人。
But in these royal gardens, there is evidence that some people were kept against their will because they had some remarkable feature, perhaps a dwarf or something like this.
我们对这种事了解得不多。
We don't It's a human know much thing about kind of thing.
是的。
Yeah.
一点点。
A little bit.
是的。
Yeah.
不过我不想过分夸大这一点，因为我们并不清楚具体情况。
I don't want to exaggerate that too much though because we don't know the extent of it.
但这座令人震惊的城市，我想我读到过，它的规模是亨利八世时期伦敦的五倍。
But but this this stupefying city that I I think I read it was five times the size of London under Henry the eighth.
这难道不是真的吗？
That's is that is that not true?
这是另一个传说吗？
Is that another of the myths?
结果证明这是一个传说。
That turns out to be a myth.
这个说法在过去几十年里由一些原本可信的历史学家传播开来，但最近一位考古学家发现，这些数字完全是西班牙人编造的猜测，后来又被人口统计学家沿用。
Now that is one that was spread by otherwise reputable historians in the past few decades, but recently an archaeologist this was based on numbers that were pure guesswork, that the Spaniards had put together and then the demographers put together.
但最近一位考古学家做了计算，意识到他们所居住的这个岛屿只有五平方英里。
But recently an archaeologist did the math and realized that, you know, this island they were living on was five square miles.
我们之前推算的人口密度堪比今天的曼哈顿，这简直荒谬至极。
We were imputing a density of population that rivals that of Manhattan today, which is kind of ridiculous.
对吧？
Right?
没错。
Right.
好的。
Okay.
然而，它确实非常大。
However, it was very big.
我们估计岛上可能有五万人。
We do think there were probably 50,000 people on the island.
如果你算上中央谷地所有自认为属于或与这座城市有关联的人，
And if you count all the people in the Central Valley who considered themselves sort of part of this Yes.
那么我们可能就接近他们所谈论的规模了。
Or connected to that city, we might approach sizes like they have talked about.
是的。
Yeah.
你看，这就是我让你来的原因，因为我有太多混乱的事实，我想让你帮我理清
See, this is what I wanted you on because I've got so many kind of garbled facts that I want you to
我们都这样认为。
We all do.
历史学家们在这方面提供了帮助。
And the historians have helped with that.
很遗憾我要这么说。
I'm sorry to say.
汤姆，我认为我们应该转到人祭这个话题，因为这正是
Tom, I think I think we should get to that get into the human sacrifice because that is
我觉得我们还是先休息一下再谈这个吧。
I think we should do that after the break.
好的。
Okay.
公平，说得对。
Fair fair enough.
你呢？
You?
说得通。
Fair enough.
说得通。
Fair enough.
因为，当然，是的。
Because, of course, yes.
我的意思是，我们可以说大约
I mean, we we I would say about
我们遇到的三分之一的问题都是关于
That's what third of the questions we've
被问到的都是关于祭祀的问题。
been asked are about about the sacrifice.
我知道，显然，强调这个文明的美丽与复杂性至关重要。
And I know that that obviously, incredibly important to emphasize the beauty, the sophistication of of the civilization.
但不幸的是，人们就是这样做的。
But, unfortunately, this is what people do.
对。
Right.
我们需要讨论这两方面。
And we need to talk about both.
对。
Right.
如果我们不谈论牺牲，那就是在自我欺骗。
We'd be in denial if we didn't talk about sacrifice.
那么，我们休息一下，短暂地停一下。
So, let's go and have a a quick break.
去给自己泡一杯热巧克力。
Go and make yourself a cup of chocolate.
等我们回来，就聊聊人类牺牲。
And then when we come back, we will talk human sacrifice.
欢迎回到《历史其余部分》。
Welcome back to The Rest is History.
我喝了一杯放松的热巧克力。
I've had a relaxing cup of hot chocolate.
汤姆·霍兰德去执行了一次人类献祭，我认为这在布里克斯顿是正常行为。
Tom Holland has been off to conduct a human sacrifice as I believe is normal behavior in Brixton.
而卡米拉·托wnsend可能没有进行过人类献祭，但她将和我们讨论人类献祭，这显然是所有英国读者联想到阿兹特克人的唯一事情。
And Camilla Townsend probably hasn't conducted a human sacrifice, but is going to talk to us about human sacrifice, which obviously is the one thing that all certainly all British readers associate with the Aztecs.
所以，卡米拉，我们收到了大量问题。
So, Camilla, we've had tons of questions.
这里有一个不错的开场问题。
So here's a good one to to kick off with.
这是斯蒂芬·延森提出的：撇开人类献祭不谈（好像真能撇开似的），阿兹特克人到底和我们有多大不同？
It's Stefan Jensen, and he says, human sacrifice aside, as if you can put it aside, how different from us were the Aztecs really.
有趣的是，人们常常以人类献祭来证明阿兹特克人与我们不同，认为他们更低等，或是某种阴险的存在。
Now the interesting thing about that is that human sacrifice is often the thing that people have used to show that the Aztecs were different, that they were lesser or that they were some sinister or or whatever.
那么真相到底是什么？
So so what's the truth?
我的意思是，他们是这些嗜血的、有这种堕落习俗的人，还是其实和我们没什么不同？
I mean, are they these sort of bloodthirsty characters with this depraved practice, or are they just like us?
我强烈认为，从根本上说，这些人和我们其实是一样的。
I would argue strongly that at heart, these people were just like us.
确实如此。
Now, it is true.
人祭是他们文化的一部分，这一点必须承认。
Human sacrifice was a part of their culture, and that must be acknowledged.
在最近几十年里，我们许多历史学家试图不去否认这一事实，但又避免谈论它，因为我们一直专注于强调这些人的其他方面及其文化。
In in recent decades, many of us historians have, tried to not deny the fact of that, but avoid talking about it because we've been focused on trying to draw attention to other aspects of these people and of their culture.
但这个问题必须被正视。
But it must be addressed.
这是真实存在的。
It was real.
问题是，公众通常只关注阿兹特克文化这一方面，从而扭曲了它。
The problem is that we, in the public, we have in general focused only on that aspect of of the Aztec culture and thus have distorted it.
从根本上说，他们宗教的核心是一种在许多人类文化中都常见的观念。
At heart, at the center of their religion was a notion common to many human cultures.
那就是人类对神明欠下了很多。
That is that humans owe the gods a great deal.
你应该感谢神明，表达你的感激之情，向他们献上祭品。
You ought to thank the gods, show your gratitude, give sacrifice to them.
我们几乎找不到一种没有某种形式这种元素的宗教。
It's it would be we'd be hard pressed to find a religion that didn't have some element of that.
而最伟大的牺牲被认为是人类的生命，尤其是美丽、强壮的年轻战士的生命。
And the greatest sacrifice was considered to be human life, especially the the the life of a of a beautiful, strong, young warrior.
再次强调，年轻人为族群、为更大的利益献出生命的观念，在整个人类文明中都非常普遍。
Again, the idea of of a of a young man, a young person giving up his life, for his people for the greater good, this is very common across human civilization.
这源于你刚才跟我们讲的那个神话。
And which originates from that myth that you were telling us about.
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是的。
Yes.
那个神话源于那种信仰，或者那种信仰源于那个神话，但它们紧密相连。
That or that or that myth originates from the belief or the belief from the myth, but they're tightly tied together.
对吧？
Right?
那么，发生了什么？我认为，学者和考古学家相信，这实际上在古代世界的许多地方都发生过。
So what what happened, and I think this well, scholars, archaeologists believe this happened actually in many parts of the world in ancient times.
只是我们现在没有清晰的了解，那就是人们逐渐开始更愿意牺牲战俘——某个被俘的敌人，而不是他们自己的孩子。
It's just that we don't have a clear view of it now, was that people gradually began to prefer to sacrifice a prisoner of war, someone taken, you know, some an enemy that had been taken instead of one of their own children.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，这相当正常。
I mean, that that is rather normal.
好的。
Okay.
我们保持一种信念，即必须给神灵献上一份厚礼，但不一定非得是我的玛丽贝丝。
We maintain the belief that we must give the gods a great gift, but it doesn't have to be my Marybeth.
对吧？
Right?
献祭的会是那些攻击我们却被我们击败的人。
What it'll it'll be these people who attacked us and we we defeated.
明白吗？
Okay?
这种做法持续了很久。
And that went on.
人们普遍认为，这在所有或大多数古代文明中都发生过。
Again, it's thought that this happened in all ancient or most ancient civilizations.
全球各地都有这方面的线索。
There are there are hints about that all across the globe.
我们知道，这种做法在新大陆也普遍存在。
We know that it went on across the New World.
几乎所有的美洲原住民都会在战争中偶尔处决俘虏作为仪式性献祭。
That that is that almost all native Americans ritually sacrificed an occasional prisoner of war.
年轻女性和儿童如果被俘，几乎总是被收养，但年轻的战士或酋长则面临刀刃或火刑。
Young women and children were almost always adopted if they were taken in war, but young warriors or chiefs faced faced the knife or faced the burning.
而且这一切都伴随着极大的敬意进行。
And it was done with all great honor.
如果一个男子临死时没有尖叫，他就会获得最高的荣誉。
If if a guy died without screaming, he he was given, the the highest honor.
因此，这并不一定是为了贬低敌人。
So it wasn't intended necessarily to denigrate the enemy.
这只是战争的一部分，与敬奉神灵有关。
It was just it was part of war and it was it had to do with honoring the gods.
确实，这种习俗在完整的历史背景下对人类而言是悲剧性的常态，但在阿兹特克人手中却有了新的含义。
Well, it is true that that custom that sort of in full context is tragically normal for human beings took on a new angle, under the Aztecs.
正如我之前提到的，他们是最后迁入谷地的族群，并为争取自己的地位而战。
They were the last migrants to arrive in the valley, as I've mentioned, and they fought for their position.
到了那个世纪末，他们变得如此强大，以至于必须设法维持对广阔帝国的控制。
And towards the end of that century, they had become so powerful that they really needed to try to maintain power over a far flung empire.
而那是一个没有机枪的世界。
And this was a world without machine guns.
对吧？
Right?
他们的武器并没有比邻居或敌人先进多少。
They didn't have weaponry that was different, profoundly different from their neighbors or their enemies.
因此，他们必须深入挖掘，找到恐吓人民的方法。
So they really needed to to sort of dig in and find ways to terrorize people.
他们开始以前所未有的规模进行人祭，这在他们及其人民的历史上从未有过。
And they began to commit human sacrifice on a scale that had never been done before by them and their people.
我不了解世界上其他地区的情况。
I don't know about other regions in the world.
事实上，在我读过的一份编年史中，他们确实提到，在统治末期，当权力达到顶峰、他们的偏执（可以说）也达到顶点时，他们有时喜欢这样做。
And in fact, in one of the the the the annals that I have read, they actually talk about this that they sometimes like to go this is the very end of their reign when this power was peaking and and their paranoia, one could argue, was peaking.
他们会去被征服地区抓走年轻人，带他们到城里，让他们观看那些恐怖的祭祀仪式——一次处死数十人，而不仅仅是一个人。
They would go and take young people from the area they were trying to conquer, bring them to the city, have them watch these horrible sacrifices in which dozens of people were killed, not just one.
然后放他们回家。
And then let send them home.
让他们走。
Let them go.
他们明确表示，这样做的目的是让这些人回家后告诉自己的族人：我们最好趁早加入这个帝国，不要与他们对抗，因为我们不希望自己的年轻人被这样献祭。
And they explicitly said this was with the idea of having them go home and tell their people, we better join this empire while we can and not fight them because we don't want our young people to have to be sacrificed like that.
所以这是有意识的。
So it was purposeful.
在我看来，这并不是因为阿兹特克人真的相信，如果一年内不献祭数千人，众神就会愤怒，太阳就会消失。
It is it does it does not seem to me that it that this happened because all the Aztecs truly believed that if they didn't sacrifice thousands of people in the course of a year, the gods would, you know, be angry and the sun would disappear.
这种刻板印象。
That sort of stereotype.
他们的宗教中确实有这种成分，但现实往往像通常那样，是政治性的。
But that there's a kernel of that in their religion, but then the reality was political as it so often is.
我的意思是，我们可以看看我深爱的国家的政府。
I mean, we can look at the government of my own beloved country.
对吧？
Right?
在七十年代和八十年代，我的政府以我们的名义做了许多可怕的事情。
It's horrible things were done in the nineteen seventies and eighties in the name by by my government in our name.
是那些在拉丁美洲维持权力的人。
It's who maintain power in Latin America.
所以我认为，说他们在很多方面与我们现在非常相似，并不算是过分的延伸。
So I think it it isn't so far it isn't much of a stretch to say that in many ways they are or were very much like we are now.
我可以问一下吗？我有一大堆关于阿兹特克人和他们的神祇的事情，我一直以为自己是了解的。
Can I I've got a whole load of, things that I thought that I knew about about the Aztecs and their gods?
而且我相当确定，我只是想好好检验一下这些认知。
And and I'm fairly sure that that I just want to basically stress test them.
所以你告诉我，这些
So tell me if these
是对还是错。
are right or wrong.
阿兹特克人是否认为，战死牺牲的战士和死于分娩的妇女会变成蜂鸟？
Did did did the Aztecs think that, warriors who were were sacrificed and women who died in childbirth turned into hummingbirds?
对，也不对。
Yes and no.
确实如此，就像古希腊和古典世界一样，对于人死后会发生什么，存在一些分歧和争论。
They did so, like ancient Greece, like the classical world, there was some division, some debate about what happened after you died.
并没有普遍共识。
It wasn't universally agreed upon.
我想，在古代世界，有些人相信俄耳甫斯教派，而另一些人则不信。
Know, I think about some people in the ancient world believed in the sort of the the Orpheus cult and others did not.
明白了。
Okay.
同样地，在古代墨西哥，不同地区对此有着略有不同的看法。
So likewise, in, in ancient Mexico, different areas had somewhat different views of this.
但总的来说，生命是黄金时期，而死亡之后，你将成为一个即将被遗忘、最终不复存在的幽灵。
But in general, life was the golden period and death in death, you were a shade, a shadow who would soon be forgotten and then no longer exist.
但如果你作为战士战死、作为战争中的祭品牺牲，或是在分娩中去世，那么你就供养了众神，尤其是太阳神。
Except if you died, as a warrior or as a sacrifice victim in war or a woman who died in childbirth, Then you fed the gods and especially the sun.
你会生活大约四年——这一点尚有争议——在一个金色的世界里，你正在滋养着太阳。
You lived for, it's debatable, probably four more years, in a golden world where you were feeding the sun.
从象征和隐喻的角度来看，你以鸟类或蝴蝶的形式完成这一使命。
And symbolically, metaphorically, you did this as a bird or a butterfly.
这真美。
That's beautiful.
但我们并不认为他们看到一只蜂鸟时会想，‘哦，看那只蜂鸟。’
But but it's not we don't think that they thought, oh, look at that hummingbird.
蜂鸟。
Hummingbird.
明白了。
Okay.
可能是乔叔叔。
It's probably uncle Joe.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，这并不是字面上的那种意思，而是一种更美好、更富有隐喻性的表达。
I mean, it wasn't a sort of literal thing like that, but a more beautiful and metaphorical.
但其中确实有一种诗意，
But there's a kind of poetry there that's
当然有。
Oh, absolutely.
绝对有。
Absolutely.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
好的。
Okay.
所以从蜂鸟转向更血腥一点的话题，阿兹特克祭司真的有习惯用尖刺刺穿自己的阴茎吗？
So from hummingbirds to something slightly bloodier, is it true that Aztec priests were in the habit of stabbing their penises with sharp thorns.
听众们想知道这个。
The the listeners want to know this.
我的意思是，你之前跟我说过你打算问，汤姆也一直说要问，显然这事一直萦绕在他心头。
I mean, there's You no way to you told me you were gonna you've I mean, Tom has been saying he's gonna ask this for it's clearly playing on his mind.
天知道卡米拉。
God knows Camilla.
那么，潜意识里到底在发生什么？
Well What's going on in that subconscious?
我想我八岁左右时读到过这个。
I think I read that when I was about eight
从那以后就一直萦绕在我心头。
and it haunted me ever since.
这是真的，确实如此。
It was it's very true.
历史文献中有记载。
It's in the histories.
诗歌里也有描述。
It's in the poems.
事实上，这可能——甚至比人祭更为普遍。
And in fact, that was probably well, it was more common than human sacrifice.
所有年轻男子在成长过程中，为了变得坚强，都会参加一种仪式，通过自残流血来磨炼自己。
That is one thing that all young men did growing up in order to become tough was take part in in ritual ceremonies in which you bled yourself.
他们会轻微地让自己的阴茎出血。
You bled your penis a little bit.
目的不是造成永久性伤害，而是展示自己的坚韧，并向神明表达感谢。
The idea was not to do lasting damage, but just to show how tough you were and to thank the gods.
只是为了
Just to
展示你有多坚强， basically.
show how tough you are, basically.
这是一种韧性。
It's a resilience.
是的。
Yes.
并且感谢神灵。
And thank the gods.
你的血滋养着大地，从而滋养了神明，但我坚决认为，你是在展示自己的强大与非凡。
You mean, your again, your blood is feeding the earth and hence the divinity, but I would absolutely argue that you're showing how strong you are, how impressive you are.
我觉得我们应该在节目中讨论一下这个，汤姆。
I think it's something we should bring in on this show, Tom.
青少年时期的照片
Teenage pics
整夜不停。
all through the night.
好的。
Okay.
最可怕的神，他是最可怕的神吗？
The most terrifying god, is he the most terrifying god?
大约二十年前，伦敦皇家学院举办了一场精彩的展览，其中有一尊神像，看起来穿着气泡膜，你马上就能知道我在说谁。
So there was a fabulous exhibition, at the Royal Academy here in London about twenty years ago, and there was a statue of a a god that looked to be wearing bubble wrap and you'll know immediately who I'm talking about.
我当时想，哦，这看起来像个儿童角色。
And I thought, oh, how looks like a children's character.
然后我看了说明牌，上面说：这是一张被剥下来、翻转过来的皮肤，皮肤内部的脂肪形成了许多小气泡。
And then I read the sign and said, this is a a flayed skin turned inside out and this is the fat of the inside the skin that has formed little bubbles.
这位神是奇普·托特克，我们的主，剥皮者，祭司们会穿着剥下的皮肤四处走动。
And this god is Chippy Totec, our lord, the flayed one, and the priests went around wearing flayed skins.
这是真的吗？
Is that true?
是的。
Yes.
事实上，在早期，他们的文化中确实有祭司会做类似的事情。
And in fact, at first, and, you know, early on in their culture, there would have been some element of this that is a priest would have done something like that.
这种扮演牺牲者身份的想法，是一种非常神圣且受尊崇的身份。
The idea of taking on the persona of the sacrifice victim, which was a very holy and revered persona.
他们当时确实参与其中。
They would have been part of it.
到了后期，当他们大规模利用人祭作为权力斗争的工具时，已经有一整支专业的祭司群体。
By the end, again, when they were using human sacrifice in a in a vast power play, there was a whole cohort of professional priests.
我的意思是，他们正是推动这一行为的群体之一。
I mean, they were part of the ones pushing this.
这有点像军事将领推动某场战争。
It's a bit like military generals pushing a particular war.
对于他们的职业身份而言，更多的人祭活动是有利的。
It was good for their sort of professional identity for there to be more of this human sacrifice.
显然，他们中的一些人根本不是那种你愿意带回家见家长的人。
And clearly, some of them well, they were not the kind of guy you'd wanna bring home for dinner.
明白吗？
Okay?
那些人——
The people who
不是。
were No.
我正想说，如果他们穿着别人的人皮，那就另当别论了。
I was about say, not if they're wearing someone else's skin.
我的意思是，对。
I mean Right.
没错。
Right.
但请记住，就在这个时候，阿兹特克的诗人中，有些人正在吟唱战争的悲剧性、生命终结的哀伤，以及生命之美——并非所有阿兹特克人都是一样的。
Now, again, keep in mind that at the same time as this was going on, Aztec poets, some of them were singing about the tragic nature of war, the tragic the tragedy of of life ending and the great beauty of so all Aztecs were not the same.
我的意思是，这听起来很傻，但我的观点是，这些祭司中有些人确实很恶劣，但并不是所有阿兹特克人都这样。
Mean, that sounds silly, but my point is some of these priests were real dastardly dudes, but they were all Aztecs weren't like that.
多米尼克，我可以读一下丹佛·布里托的问题吗？
Dominic, can I just read Denver Brito's question?
因为因为他他说，我们是否知道有人反对献祭？这正是我想说的。
Because because he he he he like, he says, do we know of sentiment against sacrifice That's exactly what I
我正要问这个问题。
was gonna ask.
哦，抱歉，多米尼克。
Oh, sorry, Dominic.
有没有什么争论？
Is there is there a debate?
我们有没有证据？有没有文字证据表明当时内部存在真正的争论？
Is there a debate within do we have evidence, textual evidence of of an actual debate within as
有的。
We do.
我想，我不会说存在任何正式的辩论，但这些歌曲与历史记载有所不同，歌曲就是诗歌，而且是被吟唱出来的。
I guess, I wouldn't go so far as to say that there was any sort of formalized debate, but just that within these songs that are a bit different from the histories, the songs are the poems, but they were sung aloud.
显然，其中存在多种不同且相互竞争的线索。
There's clearly there are multiple different and competing threads.
有些歌颂战争，但实际上非常少。
Some of them celebrate war, but actually very few.
这在歌曲中相当罕见。
That's rather rare in the songs.
更主导的线索是暴力的悲剧性。
A more dominant thread would be the tragic nature of violence.
因为生命就是天堂。
And because life life was heaven.
尘世的这一生就是最好的。
This life on earth was the best that there was.
他们确实强烈地感受到这一点。
They they really felt strongly.
即使是那些能化作蜂鸟、活四年之久的战士，
Even for the warriors who get to be, you know, humming live as hummingbirds for four years.
生活正是他们始终怀着敬意与喜悦谈论的主题。
Life was what they continuously spoke with reverence and joy about.
生活就是你应当竭尽所能成为最好的自己，因为这就是全部了，各位。
Life was what you were supposed to be the best human that you can because this is it folks.
明白吗？
Okay?
毫无疑问，这种对话或讨论的一部分，正是对生命的热爱与对生活的喜悦。
And there there's no question that part of that sort of dialogue or discourse was, just a love of life, a joy in life.
人们使用了各种隐喻，比如将生命比作花朵等等。
All sorts of metaphors were used comparing to flowers, etcetera.
所以，认为杀死敌人是好事，我认为我从未见过这种说法。
So the idea that it was good to have to kill the enemy, I don't think I've ever come across that.
你确实会发现，我们赢了是好事。
You do find it's good that we won.
但就所有的死亡和人祭而言，这些歌曲将它们描述为一件令人悲伤的事。
But in terms of all the death and human sacrifice, the songs talk about it as a sad thing.
我认为，很可能这些祭司们，此时已经独自生活在这些庙宇金字塔中，他们大概并不会唱这些歌。
I would argue that most likely these the priests who were by now living on their own in in these temple pyramids, they probably were not singing those songs.
他们有着，我认为，不同的看法。
They they had a, I think, a different view.
我之所以这么说，是基于他们的行为。
And I say that based on their actions.
我们没有他们的原话。
We we don't have their words.
好的。
Okay.
所以，卡玛拉，关于神灵，我再问最后一个问题。
So so, Kamala, one one last question about gods.
某种程度上，这正是最让我耿耿于怀的细节。
And in some ways, I mean, this is the detail that has haunted me most of all.
雨神特拉洛克，是掌管降雨的神。
The god Tlaloc, who is the the god of the rain.
真的有孩子被特别献祭给他吗？而且如果孩子哭泣，这种献祭就会更有效？
And is it true that children were particularly sacrificed to him and that if they cried, then the sacrifice was was more efficacious?
这是真的。
It is true.
那个传说称阿兹特克人四处猎杀大量妇女和儿童。
That is the the the myth is that Aztecs ran around killing a lot of women and children.
但他们并没有这么做。
It was they did not.
几乎总是战俘，男性战俘，年轻的战士。
It was almost always, prisoners of war, male prisoners of war, young warriors.
然而，有一些特定的仪式。
However, there were certain ceremonies.
我的意思是，一年到头都有节日和宗教节日。
I mean, there there was festival days, religious days went throughout the calendar.
有一些特定的仪式中会有女性死亡，其中有一个专门献给特拉洛克的仪式，会牺牲少数儿童。
And there was, there were certain ones where women died, and there was this one, the ceremony, dedicated to Tlaloc, where a handful of children were sacrificed.
关于这些儿童的身份，目前还存在争议。
And there is debate about who these children were.
一些学者认为，这些孩子可能是他们自己的孩子。
Some scholars have have argued that they were, you know, their own children.
然而，并没有确凿的文字证据支持这一点。
However, there's no evident there's no textual evidence of that.
事实上，考古学家发现这些孩子总是营养不良的。
And in fact, archaeologists have found that these were always malnourished children.
因此，我强烈认为，这些孩子毫无疑问也是来自贫困地区的战俘。
So I would argue strongly that these were undoubtedly also prisoners of war from impoverished areas.
明白吗？
Okay?
是的，哭泣这一行为在许多仪式、节日，甚至政治场合中都具有重要的仪式意义。
And, yes, the idea of crying was very it was of ceremonial importance in in many in many ceremonies, many festivals, and even on political occasions.
如果一位首领在说出某句话时流泪，那就意味着他不会食言。
If a chief cried as he uttered a certain statement, that meant he would not break his word for it.
因此，公开的泪水非常重要。
So public tears were important.
是的，当孩子们哭泣时，这被视为吉兆。
And yes, when the children cried, it was considered a good sign.
有一些证据表明，有时孩子们会被施以药物，以减轻他们的痛苦。
There is some evidence that sometimes the children were drugged so that they didn't suffer.
但由于人们希望孩子们能哭泣，我怀疑药物剂量并不足以让他们完全无知于即将发生的事。
But given that there was some hope that the children would cry, I suspect not enough so that they could, you know, remain in ignorance of what was to happen.
我的意思是，这不仅仅是阿兹特克人的做法，在整个墨西哥，事实上在整个美洲，都是如此。
They had all I mean, this was not just the Aztecs throughout Mexico, and in fact, again, throughout The Americas.
战俘被处死是一种广为人知的现象。
Prisoners of war being put to death was was a known phenomenon to everyone.
因此，毫无疑问，当这些孩子、妇女或战士在战争中被俘时，他们都知道自己可能面临的命运。
So there's no question that when these children, women, or warriors were taken, in war, they they knew what might be their fate.
所以关于阿兹特克人对自身世界之外了解多少的问题。
So on that question of how much the, the Aztecs were familiar with the the world beyond them.
我的意思是，显然，如果他们不了解，那他们根本不知道欧洲的存在。
I mean, obviously, if they didn't, they they had no idea that, that Europe existed.
但这是哈罗德·威尔逊提出的一个问题。
But a question from, Harold Wilson.
阿兹特克人对印加人以及更广阔的世界了解多少呢？
How much did the Aztecs know about the Inca and the wider world in general?
比如说，他们和印加帝国之间有联系吗？
Say, were there were there links with the Inca empire?
这是一个仅拥有数千年定居农耕历史的世界。
This was a world that had only been sedentary, that had only been farming, for a couple of millennia.
因此，他们在技术发展水平上仍大致处于古苏美尔人或美索不达米亚人的阶段。
So, they were still sort of roughly where the ancient Sumerians or the Mesopotamians were in terms of their, technological development.
所以他们有独木舟，但并没有把独木舟发展成帆船。
So they had canoes, for example, but they hadn't turned those canoes into sailing vessels.
他们有一些相当简单的地图，但没有指南针之类的工具。
They had some, rather simple maps, but they didn't have compasses, etcetera.
所以，他们并没有直接了解那些广袤的领土。
So no, they did not have direct knowledge of, you know, vast territories.
他们的帝国最远延伸至今天的萨尔瓦多，也沿着海岸向圣迭戈方向扩展，但从未真正到达那里。
Their own empire extended as far as today's El Salvador, and it also went up the coast sort of in the direction of San Diego, although never got that far.
明白吗？
Okay?
由于他们在军事行动中远征，并通过长途贸易网络，他们听说过其他王国的存在。
And because they went far in their in their military exploits, through long distance trade networks, they had heard of other kingdoms.
因此，他们知道在遥远的地方还存在其他王国。
So they were aware that there were other kingdoms out there far far away.
但他们无法告诉你确切的情况。
But they couldn't have told you yes.
其中最著名的王国是印加帝国，他们如何如何。
And the leading ones name is are are the Incas and they did this and that.
好的。
Okay.
但是
But
比如罗马人和中国人。
like the Romans and the Chinese perhaps.
没错。
Exactly.
我觉得这个类比非常好。
I think that's a very good comparison.
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，卡米拉，你提到了技术，我认为这是一个极其引人入胜的话题。
So Camilla, you raise technology, and I think this is a a massively fascinating topic.
这是我们的许多听众都问过的问题。
It's one that tons of our listeners have asked about.
在你的书中，我是 paraphrasing 你的观点，不管你怎么表达，但你提出了一个非常有趣的论点，认为这基本上是两个时间维度的冲突。
And in your book, I mean, I'm paraphrasing your books, however you should be doing it, but you have this incredibly interesting argument about it's basically a sort of clash of two time zones.
比如十六世纪的西班牙人和阿兹特克人，后者在某种程度上落后了数千年，因为他们作为定居人群的历史没那么久。
If the Spanish, from the sixteenth century and the and the Aztecs who are basically thousands of years behind as it were because they haven't been sedentary for as long.
所以我的问题，我想，是一个非常基础的问题。
So my question, I guess, is a very, very basic one.
为什么？
Why?
为什么美洲的人们没有像苏美尔人、巴比伦人或其他文明那样，同时成为定居的农民？
Why have people in The Americas not been sedentary farmers at the same time as the Sumerians or the or, you know, Babylonians or whatever?
对。
Right.
这是个非常好的问题。
It's an excellent question.
事实上，我们直到最近才有了答案，因为在二十世纪九十年代中期之前，放射性碳测年技术还不够精确。
And in fact, it's one that we haven't had an answer to until quite recently because until the the mid nineties, radiocarbon dating techniques weren't they weren't good enough.
它们还不够精细，无法告诉我们哪种植物或作物在何时达到特定阶段。
They weren't fine tuned enough to tell us when which plant or which crop got to which point.
我们只知道，在旧世界，小麦在过去几千年里似乎无处不在，但你知道，在人类历史上，这其实并没有太多信息量。
We just knew, for example, in the old world that wheat seemed to be everywhere for the past few thousand years, but, you know, in human history, that doesn't really tell us much.
因此，从九十年代开始，学者们终于能够绘制出小麦和豌豆在何时传入，以及人们何时开始在新世界种植玉米和豆类等作物的时间线。
So starting in the nineties, scholars start were able to plot where wheat and peas got when when people exactly began to farm corn and beans in the new world, etcetera.
然而，回过头来看，这完全说得通。
Well, it turns out in retrospect, this makes perfect sense.
事实证明，人们只有在拥有成套富含蛋白质的作物时，才会成为专职农民。
It turns out people became full time farmers where there was a constellation of protein rich crops that were suitable for that.
除非你有优质且富含蛋白质的替代品，否则不会放弃狩猎。
You don't give up hunting unless you have a good protein rich substitute.
在你也很熟悉的肥沃新月地带，你有豆类、豌豆和小麦，它们的野生形态蛋白质含量都非常高。
And in the Fertile Crescent, that you are also familiar with, you had, legumes, peas, and wheat, and the wild forms were very protein rich.
这一组作物迅速向东、向西传播，欧洲和中国也引入了其他作物，逐渐成为农民。
Those that that constellation of crops rapidly spread east and west, and Europe and China added other crops and and became farmers too.
但在新世界，这个过程花费了更长的时间。
Well, in the new world, it took a lot longer.
玉米的古代祖先——大刍草，体型小得多，蛋白质含量也低得多。
The ancient ancestor of corn, teosinte, was much tinier and less protein rich.
因此，各地的人们都在试探性地耕种，种植他们最爱的植物，然后第二年回来查看浆果或野生玉米是否长得更多了。
So, people everywhere were sort of flirting with farming, planting their famous their their favorite plants, and then coming back next year to see if if more of the cranberries or the wild corn had grown.
但与此同时，他们仍然更多地依赖狩猎。
But meanwhile, they were relying more on hunting.
所以，他们不断试探农耕，经过数千年，最终将微小的大刍草培育成了玉米穗。
So they flirted with farming and over several millennia, they did turn the teeny tiny teosinte into a an ear of corn.
然后，在某个时刻，他们意识到——这个过程花了更长时间——如果同一天吃玉米和豆子，就能获得足够的蛋白质来维持生活。
And then at some point, they realized, and this took more time, that if you ate corn in the same day as you ate beans, you had enough protein to live.
他们不必再去猎杀鹿了。
You didn't have to hunt down a deer.
这就像吃汉堡一样，玉米和豆子一起吃可以，但分开吃就不行。
It's like eating a hamburger if you have corn and beans together, but not separately.
小麦和豌豆单独吃就已经足够了。
Wheat and peas on their own are good enough.
所以在新世界，这个过程比旧世界多花了大约五千年。
So it took about five thousand more years in the new world than in the old.
不是指人们开始像我所说的那样‘试探性地’务农，而是指人们真正安定下来，成为专职农民。
Not for people to start flirting with farming as I call it, but for people to really settle down and become full time farmers.
这并没有让他们变笨。
And that didn't make them stupid.
完全不是。
Not at all.
我的意思是，我研究的阿兹特克人，我读过的那些文献，都是些相当聪明的人写的作品，尤其是那些诗歌。
I mean, the the Aztecs I study, the writings that I read, these are the works of some rather brilliant men, especially some of the poems.
我认为女性同样聪明，但那是另一个话题了。
And I would argue that women were just as smart, but that that's another question.
但事实上，只是因为他们定居的时间没那么久。
But indeed, it's just that they had not been sedentary for nearly as long.
所以他们没有足够多的千年时间去发明定居生活所带来的一切事物。
So they had not had the the same number of millennia to invent all the things that come with sedentary life.
如果你每天都在迁徙，就不可能开设铁匠铺，也不可能发展出文字系统和贡赋制度。
You can't have a blacksmith shop or develop a writing system and a tribute system if you're on the move every day.
你只能背着随身物品不断移动，去猎取下一只鹿或下一只兔子。
You can only move with what you have on your back, keep on going, hunt the next deer or the next rabbit.
所以这很合理。
So it makes sense.
你
Do you
需要这一切来发明轮子吗？
need all that for wheels?
因为显然，这是人们总是会问到的一个问题。
Because obviously, that's one thing that people always ask about.
轮子在哪里？
Where are the wheels?
有一个很好的例子。
There's a great example.
这不仅仅是冶金和船舶，还有轮子。
It's not just metallurgy and ships, but the wheel.
事实上，印加人，就像中美洲人一样，是农业的后来者，他们已经开始发展轮子。
And in fact, the Incas, for instance, also late comers to farming like the like the Mesoamericans, they had begun to develop a wheel.
他们在某些玩具和仪式物品中使用了轮子。
They had it in certain toys and ritual objects.
显然，再过不久他们就能做到。
Obviously, it would not have taken much longer.
我猜再过一两代，他们就会开始用轮子拉车了。
I would guess another generation or two for them to start wheeling carts around.
好的。
Okay.
我们不会深入讨论西班牙征服的细节，因为多姆，我觉得我们应该留到另一集再讲。
We're not gonna go into the detail of this of the Spanish conquest because I I Dom, I think we should save that for another
我们应该。
We should.
那一集。
Episode.
我们确实应该。
Mean We should.
这真是一个令人惊叹的故事。
It it it's so such an astonishing story.
但关于这个话题，这里有一个来自科斯塔斯·卡法雷斯的问题。
But the on that topic, there is a question here from Costas Caffares.
如果阿兹特克人再有几百年的时间在技术和行政上发展，他们是否有可能抵挡住西班牙人？
If the Aztecs had had another couple of centuries to advance technologically and administratively, might they have been able to hold the Spaniards off?
还有维多利亚·亚当斯的问题：阿兹特克人是否可能有更和平、破坏更小的结局？还是说，疾病注定了他们与西班牙人首次接触的结果会非常悲惨？
And a question from Victoria Adams, could there have been a more peaceful, less destructive outcome for the Aztecs, Or did disease mean that first contact with the Spaniards was going to end very badly for them?
所以我想问题是，一旦西班牙人抵达墨西哥，阿兹特克帝国还有可能幸存下来吗？
So I I guess the question is, was there any way in which once the Spanish had reached Mexico that the Aztec empire could have survived?
我不这么认为。
I don't think so.
你不可能，无论你多么聪明，我想这个词对我的意义和对你不一样。
You can't no matter how brilliant you are, how I I guess that word meant something different to me than it does to you.
但不管多么聪明和精明，你都无法弥补五千年的技术差距。
But no no matter how intelligent and savvy you are, you can't make up on your own for a five thousand year technological differential.
我认为，如果某些特定方面的情况稍有不同，他们本可以更久地抵御西班牙人。
I do think that had things gone a bit differently in certain specific regards, they could have held the Spaniards off for a bit longer.
你可以想象一下日本如何更久地抵御西方势力，这么说吧。
You might think of Japan holding the West off for a bit longer, so to speak.
这需要正确的统治，以及欧洲人的一些倒霉运气。
This can happen with the right rulership and with some bad luck on the side of the Europeans.
但这和声称阿兹特克作为一个国家、一个政体能永久生存下去，是完全不同的事情。
But that's a lot different from arguing that the Aztec as a state, as a nation could have survived indefinitely.
我不认为这种情况会发生。
I don't see that happening.
至于整个转变、整个征服或这一系列事件能否以更和平的方式完成，我想也许是可能的。
As for having done having accomplished the whole shift, the whole conquest or the whole set of events more peacefully, I suppose it might have been possible.
有一位被强迫为科尔特斯担任翻译的原住民女性，名叫玛琳切或多娜·玛丽娜，她似乎非常努力地通过劝说人们‘与这些人合作’来挽救原住民的生命。
One of the indigenous women who was pressed into translating for, Cortez, Malinche or Dona Marina, she seems to have worked quite hard to save indigenous lives by telling people, work with these guys.
成为他们的伙伴，而不是敌人，这样你们才能获得优势。
Be their partner rather than their enemy, and you can come out ahead.
一些选择这条路的原住民村庄确实比其他村庄获得了更好的结果。
And some of the indigenous villages who took that path did come out ahead of others.
因此，也许整个过程本可以减少一些流血冲突。
So perhaps the whole thing could have been done with less bloodshed.
但正如你的听众所暗示的，微生物也是欧洲人武器的一部分。
But as your listener has alluded to, microbes were part of the European arsenal.
由于长途贸易和农业的发展，欧洲和亚洲的传染病远比新世界多，而新世界的人们并未与动物共同生活数千年。
Because of long distance trade and farming, there were far more diseases endemic in in Europe and and Asia than there were in the New World where people had not been living with their animals for millennia.
所以我认为，考虑到疫情带来的真实而残酷的现实，即使和平谈判能阻止一些战争，人们依然会遭受苦难。
So I I I think that given the real the brutal realities of the epidemics, people were going to suffer, even if peace talks had prevented some of the wars.
但卡米拉，我可以问个问题吗？
But Camilla, can I ask a question?
据我了解，一些历史学家认为，真正的困难时期——撇开大流行病不谈，毕竟西班牙人对此也无能为力——实际上比我们想象的要晚得多。
Some historians, as far as I understand it, argue that the real I mean, the pandemics aside, which obviously the Spanish themselves couldn't really do much about, that the really sort of tough times for the indigenous people actually came much later than we think.
换句话说，十九世纪从西班牙独立之后，墨西哥原住民才真正陷入艰难境地，而不是像我们通常以为的那样，发生在征服之后。
So in other words, after independence from Spain in the nineteenth century, that was when things got really rough for the kind of native people of of Mexico rather than as we commonly imagine, you know, in the aftermath of the conquest.
是这样吗？还是我记错了或夸大了？
Is that right, or is that am I misremembering or exaggerating?
不是的。
No.
你记得很准确。
You're remembering quite rightly.
而且在某些方面，我认为你说得完全正确。
And in in in some ways, I would argue that is quite right.
毫无疑问，征服之后的一两代人对原住民来说非常艰难。
There's no question that the generation or two after conquest was very difficult for the indigenous people.
由于疾病，人口大幅下降。
The population dropped because of diseases.
他们不得不适应一群完全新的统治者，而这些统治者根本不在乎他们。
They had to accustom themselves to a whole new set of rulers who had no real respect for them.
阿兹特克人对他们所征服的人民是有尊重的。
The Aztecs did have respect for the people that they were conquering.
因此，毫无疑问，我们目睹了他们古老文化知识的急剧衰退，以及人口的急剧下降。
So there's no question that we watch sort of precipitous drop or level and knowledge of their ancient cultures, precipitous drop in population.
他们在十六世纪遭受了苦难。
They suffered in the sixteenth century.
然而，事实是，为了维持帝国的运转，西班牙人非常巧妙地建立了一种称为‘双共和国’的制度。
It is true, however, that in order to make their empire go round, the Spaniards very cleverly developed a system whereby they they call it the dos dos republics, the two republics.
他们以一种方式统治西班牙裔人群，以另一种方式统治原住民后裔。
They would rule the Spanish people of Spanish descent in one way and the people of indigenous descent in in another way.
只要土著人民在某种程度上服从，他们甚至可以自我管理。
And as long as the indigenous people complied on a certain level, they could even rule themselves.
他们甚至可以继续由土著首领统治。
That they could even have an indigenous chiefs continue to rule them.
因此，存在着一种平行世界的感觉。
And so there was a sort of sense of parallel worlds.
大学里有专门的部门致力于让学者学习土著语言。
There were whole sections of the university devoted to having scholars learn indigenous languages.
为什么？
Why?
以便土著人民可以到法庭上使用自己的语言，例如。
So that people, native people, could come to court and speak in their own language, for instance.
好的。
Okay.
因此，有人认为，在殖民时期达成了某种相互妥协的停滞状态，直到他们脱离西班牙后才彻底打破。
So one could argue that that a sort of stasis was reached of mutual accommodation over the colonial era that broke completely when they broke from Spain.
在独立时代，一切规则都失效了。
That in independence era, all bets were off.
新的共和政府宣称，所有公民一律平等。
The new republican government said, all citizens are equal.
不会为印第安人提供任何特殊待遇，法庭上也不再使用土著语言。
There will be no special allowances made for Indians, no indigenous languages in court.
例如，你们每个人都有权拥有自己的土地，那就出示你们的地契吧。
You each have the right to have your own land, for example, so show us your title.
当然，土著人民只依靠传统。
Well, of course, the indigenous people just had tradition.
他们没有地契。
They didn't have their title.
所以，简而言之，墨西哥典型原住民家庭赖以生存的粮仓，实际上在19世纪大幅衰退。
So so, yes, the the the average breadbaskets, so to speak, of the typical native descended family in Mexico, it it it really declined dramatically over the over the eighteen hundreds.
因此，他们最终成为了20世纪初墨西哥大革命的一部分。
And hence, they ended up, being part of the great Mexican revolution of the nineteen teens.
好吧？
Okay?
对。
Yeah.
萨帕塔之类的人物。
Zapata and stuff.
对。
Right.
当然。
Absolutely.
和萨帕塔与潘乔·维拉一起。
With Zapata and Pancho Villa.
没错。
Exactly.
所以你并没有错。
So you're not wrong.
但我不会说十六世纪的征服是一帆风顺的。
But I I wouldn't want to say that the conquest of the sixteenth century was a cakewalk.
那本身也面临着诸多挑战。
That that had its own challenges.
对吧？
Right?
而且我们从最开始就讨论过那些广为流传的神话。
And and and we we talked about this right at the beginning with the kind of the the the myths that are commonly believed.
人们普遍认为阿兹特克人以为世界末日到了。
And the assumption is that the Aztecs thought that the the world was ending.
而你非常有力且感人地证明了事实并非如此，因为他们根本没有时间去制造这种神话。
And and you very powerfully and movingly demonstrate that that was not the case because they they didn't have time for that kind of myth making.
对。
Right.
他们只是在努力活下去。
They were trying to stay alive.
是的。
Right.
他们当时努力求生。
They were trying to stay alive.
首先，他们试图赢得对抗西班牙人的战争；当这变得不可能时，他们就努力求生。
First, they were trying to win the war against the Spaniards, and then when that became impossible, they were trying to stay alive.
接着，他们努力让自己的文化延续下去，记录下所有这些历史，幸好他们这样做了。
Then they were trying to keep their culture alive, writing down all these histories, and thank goodness they did.
在我过去二十年的阅读中，我从未发现任何证据表明他们认为世界即将终结。
I have come across, and all the reading I've done over these two decades now, no evidence, that they thought the world was was going to end.
在1580年代曾有一段时间，疾病接连不断造成巨大伤亡，他们才开始有些担忧。
There was one period in the fifteen eighties when the disease had taken such a toll generation after generation that they began to worry a bit.
我们的人口会不会有一天彻底消失？
Will, you know, will our population someday disappear?
这已经是他们最接近认为世界会终结的想法了。
That was as close as they ever came to thinking that the world would end.
没有末日的预兆。
No vision of apocalypse.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
嗯，我是说，我读到的时候就把这一点记下来了。
Well, you I I I mean, I I noted it down when I read it.
那些经历过与西班牙人战争并幸存于首次欧洲传染病大流行的阿兹特克人惊讶地发现，太阳依然照常升起和落下，他们仍需面对余生。
Those Aztecs who lived through the war with the Spaniards and then survived the first great epidemic of European diseases found to their surprise that the sun continued to rise and set and that they still had to face the rest of their lives.
我认为，这正是为一种交织着绝望与生存的苦乐参半的叙事画上完美句号的方式。
And I think that that's a perfect note on which to end a kind of bittersweet note of of of kind of mingled despair and and and survival.
所以，卡米拉，非常感谢你做客节目。
So Camilla, thanks so much for coming on the show.
真的非常感谢。
Really, really appreciate it.
是的。
Yeah.
非常引人入胜。
Been fascinating.
非常感谢。
Thank you so much.
对于听众来说，卡米拉的书是《第五太阳：阿兹特克人的新历史》。
For listeners, Camilla's book is The Fifth Sun, a new history of the Aztecs.
老实说，这是我读过最引人入胜、令人耳目一新且感人至深的历史书籍之一。
Honestly, one of the most fascinating eye opening moving history books I've read.
我极力推荐。
Can't recommend it highly enough.
非常感谢大家的收听。
So thank you very much for listening.
谢谢。
Thank you.
再见。
Bye bye.
再见。
Bye bye.
感谢收听《历史其余部分》。
Thanks for listening to The Rest is History.
如需获取独家剧集、提前收听、无广告播放以及加入我们的聊天社区，请前往 restishistorypod.com 注册。
For bonus episodes, early access, ad free listening, and access to our chat community, please sign up at restishistorypod.com.
网址是 restishistorypod.com。
That's restishistorypod.com.
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