53. 权力的游戏

但这在政治上已不再被允许，却是一个非常戏剧化的故事。

And that is politically no longer permissible, but it is a very dramatic story.

这是一种非常戏剧化的表达方式。

It's a very dramatic way of presenting it.

她不是把奴隶主钉在十字架上了吗？

Doesn't she doesn't she crucify the slavers?

那不是吗

Isn't isn't that

她确实这么做了。

She does.

是的。

Yes.

然后她用她的龙烧毁了整个维斯特洛。

And then she ends up incinerating the whole of Westeros with her dragons.

所以，这并不是对她的纯粹颂扬，但她确实是白人救世主的典型代表。

So it's it is it's it's it's not a a a kind of purely laudatory presentation of her, but she is the very essence of a white Xavier.

我的意思是，她的头发不可能更金黄了。

I mean, her her her hair could not be more blonde.

她确实是。

She is.

她就像是去乞力马扎罗山进行彗星观景之旅的人，不是吗？

She's she's somebody going on a comet relief trip to Kilimanjaro, isn't she?

是的。

Yes.

骑着一条龙。

With a dragon.

但事情彻底搞砸了。

But it's gone horribly wrong.

博布利。

Bobbley.

但她是个有趣的角色，因为她是那种——我是说，她是个冒牌货。

But she's an interesting character because she's a kind of, I mean, she's a pretender.

嗯，说她是冒牌货可能不太准确，因为她确实有很充分的王位继承权，但她身上有种詹姆斯党人的气质，不是吗？

Well, she's not a pretender is probably not quite the right word because she does have very good claims to the to the throne, but she's got a Jacobite figure, isn't she?

是的。

Yeah.

她是查理王子。

She's Bonnie Prince Charlie.

对。

Yeah.

她是水那边的女王。

She's the queen over the water.

而你现在的问题是，我很想知道，希望我们不会剧透太多。

And you're what's so interesting now, I hope we're not gonna ruin this for people.

不过，我们确实要剧透了。

Well, we are gonna ruin it.

但我的意思是，如果你到现在还没看过这部电视剧，那大概也不会看了。

But I mean, you haven't seen the TV series by now, you're probably not going to.

而且书中的结局可能会不一样。

And the books may turn out differently.

谁知道呢？

Who knows?

因为他显然还没写完。

Because he obviously hasn't finished.

但你知道，这引发了巨大争议，因为在书的结尾、系列的终章，所有支持她的人们都感到非常失望，因为她变得邪恶了。

But, you know, there's this huge controversy because at the end of the books, at the end of the series, all these people who had invested in her were really disappointed because she turned evil.

你知道，她攻占了首都君临城，然后让龙对民众喷火，把所有人都烧死了。

And, you know, she captures the capital King's Landing, and she turns her dragons on the on the people, and they incinerate everybody.

而在最后一集，她几乎是以一种极权主义的方式统治，身后是成群的龙，成排的奴隶士兵向她行礼，场面宛如一场纽伦堡集会。

And then the very final episode, she's this almost sort of totalitarian style rule of the dragons behind her, massed ranks of slave soldiers kind of doing homage to her in this sort of Nuremberg rally kind of scene.

所有喜爱她、甚至给孩子取名为她的观众都感到非常震惊。

And everybody was very shocked, all the viewers who loved her and had named their children after her.

天啊。

Jesus.

天哪。

Oh god.

这结果完全出乎我的意料。

This just hasn't turned out as I expected.

但我很喜欢这一点。

But I loved that.

实际上我认为那非常好，而且非常贴近现实，因为我的意思是，也许你会从某种角度思考，你知道，你说，这本质上是一种伯克式的观点，她摧毁了所有这些传统，而她有点像罗伯斯庇尔式的人物。

I actually thought that was very good and very true to life because it was I mean, maybe you would think that from, you know, you say, this is the essence of sort of Burkeanism that she's destroyed all these traditions, and and it's she's a sort of Rob Spier figure.

这有点呼应我们之前关于法国革命的播客内容。

Get a little nodding back to our our French Revolution podcast.

她充满了理想主义，但这却让她变成了一个可怕的怪物。

She's suffused with idealism, but it's turned her into this dreadful monster.

而我，我认为这实际上非常符合她角色以及这部剧的内在逻辑。

And I I thought that was actually pretty true to the logic of her character and of the show.

我觉得

I think

在结局的方式上，我们俩都属于极少数派。

both of us are in a massive minority in a matter of the way that it ended.

是的，我确实这么觉得。

I I I yeah.

我也喜欢《线报》的结局方式。

I I like the way that, Line of Duty ended as well.

哦，这太疯狂了。

Oh, that is madness.

好了，多米尼克，既然我们谈到丹妮莉丝·坦格利安，保罗·邓肯有个问题。

Well, Dominic, while we're on the subject of Daenerys Targaryen, there's a question from Paul Duncan.

历史上谁最像丹妮莉丝·坦格利安？

Who from history is the best comparison to Daenerys Targaryen?

有没有哪个觊觎王位者像她一样严重偏离了初衷？

Did any pretenders get as massively sidetracked as she does?

显然你已经想到了

So You've obviously got

因为如果你不会问这个问题，你就不会得到答案

an answer because you wouldn't have asked it if you

不会。

No.

不会。

No.

我们刚才在讨论丹妮莉丝·坦格利安。

We were talking about Daenerys Targaryen.

我正在这里思考。

I'm thinking on the hoop here.

她被嫁给了一个野蛮人国王。

She so she gets married off to a barbarian king.

是的。

Yeah.

哦。

Oh.

还有一位罗马皇后。

And there was a Roman empress.

嗯，是一位皇帝的女儿，

Well, a daughter of of of an emperor,

狄奥多西，我知道你想说什么。

Theodosus I know where you're going with this.

是的。

Yeah.

他是最后一位统治罗马帝国东西两部分的罗马皇帝。

The, who who the last Roman emperor to rule both the eastern western halves of the Roman empire.

她叫加拉·普拉西提阿，在公元410年罗马被洗劫后，她被西哥特人俘虏，最终嫁给了西哥特国王。

She was called Galla Placidia, And she, basically got captured by the Visigoths after the sack of Rome in 04/10, and she ends up, marrying the Visigothic king.

所以我觉得这算是一个有趣的平行对照，虽然可能有点牵强，但

So I think that's that's a kind of interesting parallel, maybe kind of flaky to my But

但朱迪思·赫伦在她的书《复仇》中提到了她。

but but Judith Herron writes about her in her book, Revenge.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yes.

因为她后来就像丹妮莉丝一样，离开了她的丈夫，回到罗马权力中心，成为了一位重要的母系人物。

Because she she then rather like Daenerys does, she leaves her her husband and goes back to the the Roman centers of power and becomes a kind of great matriarchal figure.

但还有另一位人物。

But there is another figure.

我们已经讨论过，龙基本上可以看作是西方空中力量的象征。

So we've talked about how dragons basically, you know, you you can see that there are parallels there to Western air power.

而丹妮莉丝则以一种略显过时的方式，自视为一位伟大的自由解放者。

And Daenerys sees herself as, you know, rather anachronistically as a kind of great liberal liberator.

她是一个机动性强的武力。

She's willing mobile force.

将自由带给远方受压迫的民众。

Bringing bringing freedom to oppressed masses in far off lands.

但这样做却造成了可怕的混乱与破坏。

So but wrecking terrible havoc and destruction by doing so.

因此，除了加拉·普拉西提阿之外，丹妮莉丝·坦格利安身上或许也带有托尼·布莱尔的影子。

So I would say, as well as Gala Placidia, perhaps there's an element in Daenerys Targaryen of Tony Blair.

托尼·布莱尔。

Tony Blair.

天哪。

Oh my word.

我完全没料到这一点。

I didn't see that coming.

艾米莉亚·克拉克？我可不觉得她长得像托尼·布莱尔。

That's a Emilia Clarke, I don't see her as a dead ringer for Tony Blair.

我觉得她演不出那种感觉。

I don't think she could carry that off.

你真的认为丹妮莉丝·坦格利安就像你看到的那样

You honestly think Daenerys Targaryen is like You saw

托尼，你最近看到托尼的长发了吗？

Tony's you saw Tony's long hair recently?

实际上，这是真的。

Actually, that's true.

他确实这么做了。

He did that.

坦格利安家族的外貌跟他很像。

Targaryen look to him.

是的。

Yeah.

他确实这么做了。

He did.

意思是，有点憔悴的样子。

Mean, it's kind of slightly ravaged.

那么，你打算怎么解释这一点？

So so how are you gonna justify this?

他是她是最第三条路。

He's she's the third way.

她

She

不。

No.

因为布莱尔在全球派出了许多军事任务，比如塞拉利昂、波斯尼亚。

Because because Blair sent out lots of military missions around the world, Sierra Leone, to Bosnia.

科索沃。

Kosovo.

是的。

Yeah.

科索沃，你知道的，到处帮助受压迫的人民。

Kosovo, you know, helping out oppressed peoples everywhere.

是的。

Yeah.

在科索沃不是有一座他的雕像吗？我觉得。

There's a statue of him, isn't there, in Kosovo, I think?

然后他试图在伊拉克故技重施，结果一切都变得一团糟，所有东西都被毁了。

And then he tries to pull the same trick in Iraq and it all gets horribly wrong and everything gets devastated.

哇哦。

So Wow.

这就是我的观点。

That's my case.

哇。

Wow.

丹妮莉丝·坦格利安的整个故事其实是一个寓言。

That The whole story of Daenerys Targaryen is parable back

如果历史出版这条路走不通，我觉得你可以写一本关于丹妮莉丝·坦格利安和托尼·布莱尔的平行传记。

to If you're if the history publishing doesn't work out, I think you should write a parallel biography of Daenerys Targaryen and Tony Blair.

我觉得这是对的。

I think that's right.

我来告诉你我觉得《权力的游戏》有趣的地方。

I'll tell you what I think is interesting about Game of Thrones.

他们告诉我，我很惊讶你还没提到这一点。

They're told I'm surprised you haven't brought this up.

我觉得是它的那种气质。

I think it's the sort of the sensibility of it.

所以这种气质和《魔戒》截然不同。

So the sensibility is so different from the Lord of the Rings.

我认为这正是很多人将其视为一种——虽然不是完全反托尔金，但确实有点像

And I think that's the I mean, that's basically what a lot of people have seen this as as a kind of it's not quite an anti Tolkien, but it's kind of a

确实是吧，不是吗？

It is though, isn't it?

它确实是明显如此。

It was kind of overtly.

我的意思是，难道不是吗？

I mean, didn't

我的意思是，菲利普·普尔曼才是反托尔金的人，对吧？

Well, Philip Pullman is the anti Tolkien, isn't he?

我的意思是，他

I mean, he's

他是反反纳尼亚的人。

the anti anti the anti Narnia.

是的。

Yes.

他确实是。

He is.

你说得对。

You're right.

没错。

Right.

我认为马丁是反托尔金式的，因为他曾 famously 问过，阿拉贡的税收政策是什么？

I think I think Martin is the anti Tolkien because he he famously says, what was Aragorn's tax policy?

而且，你知道，他提出了关于那些婴儿兽人后来怎么样了之类的难题

And, you know, he asked difficult questions about what happened to the baby orcs and

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，谁会在乎阿拉贡的税收政策呢？

You know, who cares about Arachon's tax policy?

有人真的读过《指环王》然后去思考刚铎的所得税问题吗？

Does does anyone read the Lord of

《指环王》的读者真的会去思考刚铎的所得税问题吗？

the Rings and really ask themselves about income tax in Gondor?

我的意思是，这确实引出了一个有趣的观点，也许我们可以在广告后讨论一下。

Well, I mean, it does open an interesting point that perhaps we should come to after a break.

但《权力的游戏》粉丝经常说，它比……更真实。

But one of the things that fans of Game of Thrones often say is that it's much more accurate than Yeah.

我们可以说，它比《指环王》更真实。

Let's say, than than Lord of the Rings.

它对生活，尤其是中世纪时期的生活，进行了真实的描绘。

And it gives an accurate portrayal of what life was like, particularly in the Middle Ages.

我完全不同意。

I could not disagree more.

我认为它作为对中世纪的描绘是极其不准确的。

I it is it is massively inaccurate as a portrayal

中世纪的生活。

of the middle ages.

我想，我已经公开表达过我的观点了。

I think that that that I've, you know, I've gone on record.

我说我非常喜欢它。

I said I absolutely love it.

我在读这些书的时候，完全被吸引住了。

I kind of completely hooked when I was reading the books.

我认为它有很多地方确实像镜子一样映照出真实的历史事件。

I think there's loads about it that does hold up fascinating mirrors to to actual events.

但我认为，如果你对中世纪历史有任何兴趣，这就有点问题了。

But I think that it is a you know, if you have any interest in in in medieval history, it's a slight problem.

《权力的游戏》现在极大地影响了很多人对中世纪的看法和理解。

The Game of Thrones now has this huge influence on how lots of people see and interpret the Middle Ages.

为什么？

Why?

你最大的问题是什么？你最大的不满是什么？

What's your biggest what's your great what's your what's your big complaint?

你最大的问题是？

What's your biggest Should

我们是不是该在广告后再说这个？

we should we come to that after the break?

哦，是要说那个C开头的词吗？

Oh, is it gonna be the c word?

是的。

Yeah.

也许吧。

Maybe.

哦，各位女士们先生们，举起你们的酒杯。

Oh, ladies and gentlemen, charge your glasses.

那些在玩汤姆·霍兰德饮酒游戏的人。

Those people who are playing the Tom Holland drinking game.

我觉得他会在广告后谈论基督教。

I think he will be talking about Christianity after the break.

我非常期待。

I look forward to it.

马上回来。

See you in a second.

欢迎回到《历史其余部分》。

Welcome back to The Rest is History.

汤姆·霍兰德即将开始讨论《权力的游戏》的合理性。

Tom Holland is about to embark on a discussion of the sensibility of Game of Thrones.

我认为他会谈到基督教。

I think he will be talking about Christianity.

你已经提前收到警告了。

You have been warned.

汤姆，开始吧。

Tom, off you go.

你有两个小时的时间。

You have two hours.

嗯，我相信基督教话题肯定会涉及。

Well, I I I'm sure Christianity will will come up.

但我认为更具体地说，关于《权力的游戏》在多大程度上真实还原了中世纪生活，相比《指环王》是否更准确，这一点值得探讨。

But I think that talking more specifically about the idea that Game of Thrones in any way gives an accurate portrayal of of medieval life, a more accurate portrayal, say, than than Lord of the Rings does.

这种观点认为中世纪生活极其残酷，人们整天四处劫掠、强奸。

This is based on the idea that medieval life was unspeakably brutal and that everyone just went around pillaging and raping all the time.

是的

Yeah.

如此肮脏、粗暴而短暂，霍布斯式的。

So nasty, brutish, and short, Hobbesian.

没人会否认那是一个暴力的世界，但其暴力程度远不及《权力的游戏》所暗示的那样。

No one would deny that that it it was a violent world, but it it was not remotely on the scale of violence as Game of Thrones Yeah.

暗示。

Suggests.

我认为，《权力的游戏》在各个方面本质上都在传达一种十八世纪启蒙时代对中世纪的理解。

And I think that that that on all kinds of levels, Game of Thrones is essentially giving an eighteenth century an enlightenment idea of what the Middle Ages was about.

好的。

Okay.

这是个好观点。

That's good point.

对于启蒙时代的人来说，所谓中世纪，就是介于一个假想的文明时代——即古典古代，那时一切光明，人们只谈论哲学——之间的时期。

So for the enlightenment, you know, the very idea of of a middle age between a supposed civilized age, you know, classical antiquity when all was light and people just start talking about philosophy.

到了十八世纪，当哲学家们出现时，一切又重归光明，而其间的一切都被视为野蛮且暴力的。

And then eighteenth century, when the philosopher arrive and again, everything is returned to light, and everything in between is is is brutish and and violent

而且具有攻击性。

and aggressive.

时代。

Ages.

人们不停地互相屠杀，全是强奸。

And people just go around slaughtering each other nonstop, and it's it's all rape.

这并不真实。

I this is this is not true.

中世纪文明，我的意思是，仅从战争层面来看，中世纪的战争实际上要规范得多。

Medieval civilization I I mean, in many ways, medieval so just on the level of warfare, actually, medieval warfare was far more codified.

人们对暴力的约束更多，国家行为体发动战争的能力也受到更多限制，这比古典时期或早期现代时期都要多。

There were far more inhibitions about violence, and there were far more controls on the ability of state actors to wage war than there were either in the classical period or in the early modern period.

这是因为军队规模更小。

Well, because armies are smaller.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，他们确实是。

I mean, they're Absolutely.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yes.

对。

Yes.

所以《权力的游戏》中看到的那种暴力规模——比如攻陷城市、毁灭整个族群——那是罗马人热衷做的事情。

So the scale of violence that you see in Game of Thrones, that's the kind of know, so the storming of cities, the the the destruction of entire populations, that's the kind of thing the Romans went in for.

但这并不是中世纪人们普遍会做的事。

It's not what, by and large, people in the Middle Ages did.

而当你提到那个臭名昭著的例子时，比如第一次十字军东征在十月攻占耶路撒冷，据说街道上血流成河，这件事之所以被记住并流传下来，正是因为它是例外。

And when you get, the notorious example is, October when the first Crusaders seized Jerusalem and the streets supposedly run-in blood, the reason that that's remembered and and is kind of preserved is that it was exceptional.

这是例外，恰恰证明了规则的存在。

It was the exception that proved the rule.

那种规模的暴力并未发生，而且随着剧集推进，你看到的规模庞大的军队——这需要一个早期现代国家才能提供如此程度的暴力。

That scale of violence did not happen, and the the the vast kind of teeming armies that you get with, increasingly over the course of the show, again, this is you know, you need a kind of early modern state to provide that level of violence.

但人们不是常认为，所谓准确还原历史、呈现真正现代视角，就意味着要非常愤世嫉俗、阴暗沉重，充满性与暴力吗？

But isn't one of the things that people think is as mod isn't it so interesting that people equate being being accurate and being a sort of a properly modern portrait of the past with being very cynical, very bleak, and drenched in sex and violence.

是的。

Yes.

换句话说，人们会说，托尔金的作品太不真实了，因为人物彼此友善，有些人还很正直。

So in other words, people say, oh, Tolkien's terribly unrealistic because people are nice to each other and some people are virtuous.

而人们却称赞乔治·R·R·马丁对人性的描绘，认为它极其灰暗。

And people applaud George RR Martin's portrait of human nature, which is unbelievably sort of downbeat.

残酷。

Brutal.

每个人都极其恶劣。

Everybody is really horrible.

是的。

Yeah.

任何有德行的人都会死掉，基本上都是这样。

Anyone who is virtuous ends up dying, basically.

每个人都互相背后捅刀。

Everybody stabs each other in the back.

这其实反映了我们对权威的不信任，以及对政治的幻灭——我们竟然认为这种描绘才是中世纪政治的真实写照。

And and it's an interesting reflection on our loss of trust in authority and our disenchantment with politics that we think that is a true portrait of what medieval politics must have been like.

我的意思是，

I mean,

事实上，当时人们曾尝试各种方式来约束那些天生骑马、本就容易支配和残暴对待他人的男性暴力行为。

the thing is that there were all kinds of attempts to regulate the violence inherent within, you know, male male men with horses who, by their nature, can can can can dominate and and brutalize.

所以，再次说，十一世纪——也就是我们在十月那期节目中讨论的时期——见证了城堡的出现和骑士阶层的兴起。

So, again, the the eleventh century, the period, you know, that we talked about in in in the episode on October, the period that sees the emergence of castles, sees the emergence of of knights.

同时，这也是所谓的‘上帝休战’出现的时代，教会人士从教堂和修道院搬出圣物，成功迫使武装战士发誓不再残害周围的人。

This is also the age that sees, what's called the truce of god, where churchmen bring out relics from churches and monasteries and succeed in compelling armed warriors to essentially kind of swear oaths that they will they will not brutalize those around them.

我的意思是，当然这些誓言都被违背了，但人们原本假设它们会被遵守和遵循。

I mean, of course, these oaths were broken, but it was assumed that that they would be obeyed and followed.

而且，我最近刚读完《坎特伯雷故事集》，在 lockdown 期间读的。

And there was you know, I've just been read over the lockdown, was reading Chaucer.

而乔叟当然总是与粗俗、男女情爱、人们把屁股伸出窗外之类的事情联系在一起。

And Chaucer, of course, is always associated with with, bawdy and people having sex and people sticking asses out of windows and kind of things like that.

但在骑士层面，那些描写骑士行为的故事，核心恰恰在于他们不会四处强奸。

But on the on the knightly level, the the the the tales that deal with the things that knights do, the whole point is is that they're not going around raping.

所以在《骑士的故事》中，整个情节是两个兄弟骑士多年以来都倾心于同一位女士。

So in the knight's tale, the whole thing is is that that you have two two brother knights who spend years both hankering after the same lady.

他们并没有冲出去强行占有她。

They do not rush out and seize her.

是的。

Yeah.

即使在《女修道院院长的故事》中出现了强奸，这种行为也受到了惩罚。

And even when you do get a rape, so in in the wife of Bath's tale, that rape is punished.

整个剧情的核心围绕着他试图逃避因强奸罪而被处决的命运。

The whole dynamic of the plot revolves around his attempt to avoid being executed for committing rape.

所以，《权力的游戏》真正没理解的是，那些控制着战士行为的意识形态、道德和伦理框架——尤其是规范性行为的伦理——在《权力的游戏》中根本得不到体现。

So, essentially, what Game of Thrones does not get is the way in which there are controlling ideologies, frameworks of morality, ethics that govern how warriors behave, certainly ethics that govern, sexual behavior that are simply not reflected in the way that that Game of Thrones shows it.

实际上，我们已经收到了大量关于这个问题的提问，因为大家都知道你的偏好。

Well, we've had tons of questions about this, actually, because people know your predilections.

所以吉姆·朗赫斯特问了一个问题，谁最能体现人类精神，而维斯特洛是不是那种没有佛陀、基督和圣徒的阴暗世界，而正是这些人物让真实世界变得可以忍受？

So Jim Longhurst asked a question about who captured the human spirit best, and, you know, is Westeros sort of the the grimness without the Buddhas, Christ, and saints that made the real world livable?

卡罗琳娜问了一个问题，《权力的游戏》对基督教在中世纪的影响有哪些误解？

Carolina asked the question, what did Game of Thrones misunderstand about Christianity's impact on the medieval period?

好吧。

So okay.

所以有些人说《权力的游戏》，当然，我们这里有点在树立稻草人靶子，但这种观点确实存在。

So some people say of Game of Thrones I mean, we're sort of creating straw men here, but, I mean, they do exist.

他们说，《权力的游戏》比《魔戒》更真实，因为它描绘了一个存在宗教的中世纪世界。

They say Game of Thrones is more realistic than Tolkien because it paints a medieval world in which there is a religion.

有七位神，我想是七神信仰。

There's seven gods, I think, the faith of the seven.

有一个

There's a

还有一个非常有趣的改革运动，或者说是名叫高 Sparrow 的人发起的福音运动，由乔纳森·普赖斯饰演，他非常虔诚、简朴，带着他的门徒像一股净化之火，就像萨沃纳罗拉。

there's a and there's also this really interesting kind of reformation movement or this sort of evangelical movement by a guy who's called the high sparrow and who's played by Jonathan Price, he's very pious and austere, and he's this sort of this sort of purging flame with his acolytes and they Savonarola.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

我们有个关于这个问题的问题。

Well, we've got a question about that.

有人问，他是不是大卫·摩根？

Somebody said, is he, you know, David Morgan?

他们看起来就像萨沃纳罗拉和他的年轻男信徒军队。

They look like Savonarola and his army of boys and young men.

那么，萨沃纳罗拉，他是佛罗伦萨人吗？

Now do you So Savonarola, the Was he Florentine?

是的。

Yes.

他组织了‘虚荣的篝火’，号召所有佛罗伦萨人把他们的奢侈品扔进大火中焚烧。

Who the bonfire of vanities, and he summons all the, the Florentines to to chuck their fripperies into a great bonfire.

但他基本上掌控了佛罗伦萨，对吧？

But he basically runs Florence, doesn't he?

就像高阶修士在剧中明显以他为原型，一度掌控了君临城，成为真正的权力核心。

Seven or in the same way that the High Sparrow in the is clearly based on him, runs King's Landing for a time and becomes the great the great sort of power.

那么，我想汤姆的问题是，你认为这是否让《权力的游戏》超越了其前身，显得更真实？

Now the question, I suppose, Tom, is do you think this does elevate Game of Thrones above, you know, its its predecessors in making it more realistic?

我再说一遍，我认为这是一种十八世纪的观点，认为宗教纯粹是欺骗人们的虚假把戏。

I I repeat, I think it's a it's an eighteenth century view that that religion exists solely as a kind of fraudulent trick played on people.

因为它们其实都没有真正——这很有趣。

So It's because none of them actually this is interesting.

我认为，《权力的游戏》中没有人真正相信他们的宗教。

None of them in Game of Thrones, I think, really believe in their religion.

所以他们谈论七神信仰，只是表面应付一下。

So they talk about the faith of the seven, and they pay lip service to it.

但没有人真正经历那种内心的挣扎，比如天哪，我真的要下地狱了。

But nobody ever has these sort of inner crises where they say, sugar, I really am gonna go to hell.

这正是我所说的真正虔诚的人，但似乎没有人这样。

This is what a I actually genuine you know, nobody seems

除了狂热分子，没人真的相信。

to believe it other than fanatics.

就连那些狂热分子，其背后暗示的也是这一切都关乎权力与控制。

And even the fanatics are you know, this kind of implication is is that it's all about power and and control.

我的意思是，这是一种非常现代的视角，一种非常现代的理解方式。

I mean, it's it's a it's a very it's a very modern perspective on it, a very modern take on it.

正因如此，我认为托尔金的作品更贴近中世纪，因为托尔金本人是中世纪文学的杰出学者。

And that is why I think Tolkien is is truer to the Middle Ages because Tolkien, of course, was a very great scholar of medieval literature.

是的。

And Yeah.

他完全理解这一点。

He entirely understood that.

而且他自己也是天主教徒，所以他真的相信这些。

And he was also a Catholic himself, so it it he he he believed it.

而正如你所指出的悖论是，在《魔戒》中没有神。

And the paradox is, as you fixed on, that in Lord of the Rings, there are no gods.

没有牧师。

There are no priests.

没有宗教。

There is no religion.

没有寺庙，也没有教堂的等价物。

There are no temples, no equivalent of churches.

然而，整个故事却充满了一种神学式的世界观，这种世界观完全源自中世纪文学。

And yet it's saturated in a kind of theological understanding of the world that absolutely derives from, medieval literature.

是的

Yeah.

中世纪人对世界理解为善与恶二元对立的方式。

The the way that medieval people would have understood the world as being divided between good and evil.

《权力的游戏》则不是这样。

Game of Thrones isn't.

所以，那种表面的现实主义，我认为根本一点都不真实。

And so the the seeming realism, I think, is not realistic at all.

尤其是在性这个话题上，我的意思是，性行为，就像暴力一样，更接近古典风格。

And particularly on on the topic of sex, I mean, the sex, again, a bit like the violence, is more classical.

所以

So the

狂欢，人们吃着葡萄。

Orges, people eating grapes.

是的

Yeah.

现在关于古典世界的剧集有一个明显的趋势，就是展现罗马家庭中奴隶被随意对待的方式，比如奴隶。

There's a there's a real there's a real trend in dramas about the classical world now to to show the kind of casual way in which, you know, in a Roman household, slaves, for instance, would have been treated.

本质上，他们的各种孔洞就像尿壶一样。

That that essentially their various orifices are the equivalent of a urinal.

他们很温顺。

That that they are Nice.

他们的存在就是为了充当主人的体液容器。

They are there to be receptacles for the bodily fluids of the of the master.

这种现象在HBO剧集《罗马》中你确实能看到。

And and that is something that that you do you you see it in in HBO series Rome.

在新推出的关于奥古斯都妻子莉薇娅的剧集《多米娜》中也有，这部剧不错。

It's there in the the new series that's out about Augustus' wife, Livia, Domina, which is is good.

我推荐你看。

I recommend it.

《权力的游戏》中也同样如此。

And it's absolutely in Game of Thrones as well.

但这是一种更古典的诠释。

But this is this is a kind of far more classical take.

是的。

Yeah.

我们有一个来自德米特里乌斯·博格丹扎利斯的问题。

We've got a question from Demetrius Bogdanzalis.

对《权力的游戏》这一集期待值很高。

So hyped for the Game of Thrones episode.

希望别让人失望。

Hope it's not disappointing.

我想听听你对马丁作品中任何罗马元素的看法。

I would like to hear your opinion on any Roman inspiration that Martin used in his work.

但是

But the

宫廷非常罗马化，不是吗？

court is very Roman, isn't it?

君临城的政治。

The the King's Landing politics.

是的。

Yeah.

确实如此。

It is.

但我认为，它也深深植根于《我，克劳狄乌斯》，就像二十一世纪许多伟大的美剧一样。

But I think, it it's also deeply rooted in I, Claudius, as so many of kind of the great dramas of, of twenty first century American TV are.

它影响巨大。

It's hugely, hugely influential.

而且确实有朱里亚·克劳狄王朝宫廷的元素，以至于扮演乔佛里的演员，本质上是

And there are elements of the Julia Claudian court, absolutely, to the degree that, the guy who plays Joffrey, who is essentially

杰克·格里森。

Jack Gleeson.

杰克·格里森。

Jack Gleeson.

好的。

Okay.

所以对于那些没看过的人，他可能是这群角色中最令人恐惧的统治者，年轻且残忍

So he's for those who haven't seen it, he he he's the most terrifying ruler perhaps of the lot, kind of young, murderous

他是个青少年，

He's a teenager,

不是吗？

isn't he?

虐待狂，是的。

Sadistic Yeah.

青少年。

Teenager.

典型的青少年。

Typical teenager.

模仿《我，克劳狄乌斯》中的约翰·赫特。

Channeling John Hurt in, in I, Claudius.

他是约翰·列侬。

He's John Lennon.

继续说。

Go on.

继续说。

Go on.

他不是约翰·列侬。

He's not John Lennon.

他是约翰·赫特。

He's he's he's John Hurt

在《我，克劳狄乌斯》里。

in in I, Claudius.

拥有至高权力的约翰·列侬。

John Lennon with with supreme power.

总之，他无法继续下去了。

Anyway, he can't continue.

他长得特别像卡利古拉的半身雕像。

He looks eerily like a portrait bust of Caligula.

我一直很好奇这是否

And I've always wondered whether

是故意的。

that was deliberate.

但这种权力腐蚀人的观念，你知道的，至高无上的权力集中在一位统治者身上，然后用于性放纵和施虐，这更像是苏埃托尼乌斯的风格，而不是中世纪的。

But also that sort of idea of this of power corrupting, you know, of of of supreme power being incarnated in one ruler and then using it for sexual excess, for sadism, that's very kind of Suetonius, isn't it, rather than medieval?

嗯，我再说一遍，

Well, I I again,

我觉得这在启蒙时代的色情作品中确实存在。

I think it's kind of there in enlightenment pornography.

实际上，你知道，这更像萨德侯爵的作品。

Actually, I you know, it's Marquis de Sard, really.

所以，我，我，我

So I I I

我认为《权力的游戏》明显包含了所有那种中世纪元素，正如我们刚才讨论的，可能还有罗马元素。

I think that Game of Thrones is clearly, there's all the kind of medieval stuff, and and as we just discussed, maybe Roman stuff as well.

有现代元素，然后还有一种控制性的十八世纪审美，是的。

There's the modern stuff, and then there's this kind of controlling eighteenth century sensibility Yeah.

这种审美在调和着这两者。

That is mediating both of them.

它把中世纪世界看作是一个充满暴力的污秽之地。

Which sort of sees the medieval world as this sort of cesspit of of violence.

所以从这个意义上说，这就像是一种色情狂的幻想，你觉得吗？

So so it's like it is a kind of pornographer's fantasy in that sense, do you think?

是的。

Yeah.

在某种程度上是这样。

To a degree.

因为十八世纪的色情创作者确实就是这样看待的。

Because that's how pornographers in the eighteenth century certainly saw it.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

那这个呢？

What about this?

我们有几个问题关于一个人们总是提到的事件，我认为很多人都把它看作是整个系列的标志性时刻，那就是所谓的“红色婚礼”。

We've got a few questions about, an event that people always mention, which I think they see lots of people see as the sort of emblematic moment of the entire series, which is this event called the Red Wedding.

哦，我妻子萨迪问过这个问题。

Oh, my wife, Sadie, asked about that.

她问了？

Did she?

那你对这个有什么看法？

Well, this your opinion on that?

那个事件的灵感来源是什么？

What was the what was your was there a source for that?

对于那些还不是《权力的游戏》粉丝的观众来说，红色婚礼是这样一个场景：一位年轻的英雄国王，有点像亨利五世，对吧？

So for those people those remaining listeners who are not Game of Thrones fans, the Red Wedding is this moment where this sort of heroic young king is sort of Henry the fifth or something, isn't he?

罗柏·史塔克，他是北境之王。

Robb Stark, who is the sort of king in the North.

他来到这场婚礼，而你一直被引导去相信。

He he pitches up at this wedding, and you've been invited to believe.

你会以为他将成为整个系列中最伟大的胜利者之一，因为他如此英勇、正直且高贵。

You'll be led to believe that he's going to be one of the great victors of the whole series because he's such a heroic, such a virtuous and noble sort of figure.

但这场婚礼最终以极其惨烈的方式收场，史塔克家族所有人全都在婚礼上被屠杀。

And, basically, the wedding all ends really horribly, and and the Starks all massacred at the wedding.

这令人震惊，因为这违背了待客之道的法则等等。

And it's shocking because it's a sort of breach of the laws of hospitality and all that.

而且，这其实是有先例的。

And there there is a precedent.

当然，这涉及苏格兰的待客之道，对吧，汤姆？

So, of course, it's it's it's Scottish hospitality, isn't it, Tom?

这个先例是一场被称为‘黑宴’的事件。

The the precedent is an event called the Black Dinner.

黑宴。

The Black Dinner.

我认为这件事发生在十五世纪初。

I think it's from the early fifteenth century.

道格拉斯伯爵来到国王的宫廷，也就是詹姆斯国王的宫廷，他呈上了一个黑色公牛头，一个被砍下的黑色公牛头，这是一种象征。

The earl of Douglas pitches up at the king's court, king James's court, and he has served a black bull's head, a severed black bull's head, which is a kind of symbol.

你将死去。

You're going to die.

然后他和我猜是他的儿子之类的人被带出去，惨遭杀害，这件事因此被铭记。

And then he and, I think, his son or something like that are taken out and horribly murdered, and it's kind of remembered as this.

但我认为它被记住的原因是因为它太不寻常了，因为除了格伦科大屠杀之外，这种行为很少发生，所以苏格兰人确实有这种前科，但这类事情并不常见。

But I suppose the reason it's remembered is because it's so unusual, because this kind of carry on doesn't apart from the massacre of Glencoe, so the Scots do have form, but it doesn't this sort of thing doesn't happen very often.

确实如此。

It doesn't.

而且，这也不是一场婚礼。

And, also, it doesn't it's not a wedding.

所以中世纪的婚礼是一种圣礼。

So a wedding in in the Middle Ages is a sacrament.

而亵渎像婚礼这样的圣礼是非常严重的事情。

And to to desecrate, you know, a a sacramental event like a wedding is is incredibly serious.

所以人们确实在教堂里互相残杀。

So The people did kill each other in church.

我的意思是，托马斯·贝克特不就是在教堂里遇害的吗？

I mean, Thomas Becket died in the church, didn't he?

是的。

Yeah.

但是但是

But but

就在他自己的祭坛旁。

by his own altar.

但同样，有一个例外恰恰证明了这个规则：国王被鞭打着游街经过坎特伯雷。

But, again, with the exception that proves the rule, the the the king is whipped through the streets of Canterbury.

托马斯被奉为圣人。

Thomas is is enshrined as a saint.

这件事被铭记为难以想象的最震撼事件。

It's remembered as the most shocking thing imaginable.

再次强调，这种暴力实际上并不会发生。

Again, this kind of violence is it it doesn't really happen.

这正是关键所在。

That's that's the point of it.

但我想说的是，多米尼克，关于《权力的游戏》为何如此上瘾、如此有趣，我认为它确实提供了伟大历史剧所具备的一切。

But what I would but, Dominic, what I would say also, just on the on on why Game of Thrones is so addictive and why it's such fun, is that I think it does give you everything that a great historical drama does.

它让你感受到一个被奇特习俗和行事方式、家族关系所支配的过去时代，就像你从关于玫瑰战争或朱里亚·克劳狄王朝的戏剧中获得的那些体验。

It it it gives you the sense of being in a past period governed by strange customs, governed by strange ways of doing things, family dynamics, all the all the kind of stuff that you get you get from a drama about the Wars of the Roses or the Julia Claudine Court.

但因为这是奇幻题材，你完全无法预料接下来会发生什么。

But because it's fantasy, you have no idea what's gonna happen.

是的。

Yes.

这就是为什么。

That's that's why

我记得读的时候感到非常震惊。

this has the I mean, I remember reading it and go being devastated.

还有那段著名的视频，人们观看它的电视改编版时的反应。

And there's the famous footage of people watching it on the on the TV adaptation.

他们甚至用枕头盖住头，尖叫起来。

They kinda go putting pillows over their heads and screaming.

谁会录下自己观看电视节目的过程，指望它会爆红？

Who films themselves watching a TV program on the off charts that they're gonna be

走红。

Go viral.

对。

Yeah.

你永远不会

You'd never you

但你要是看莎士比亚的《理查三世》戏剧，就永远体会不到那种感觉。

but but you'd never get that watching, you know, Shakespeare play about Richard the third.

你知道塔里的王子们会遭遇不测，因为那就是

You know the princes in the tower are gonna get it because that's

是的。

Yes.

发生了。

Happened.

是的。

Yeah.

但实施这一切的人，难道没有遭受一种非常莎士比亚式的命运吗？

But doesn't actually, doesn't the guy who perpetrates it, doesn't he suffer a very Shakespearean fate?

他不是被做成肉派，吃了自己孩子吗？还是类似的事情？

Isn't he served his own children in a pie or something like that?

是吗？

Is he?

是的。

Yeah.

我想不起来了。

I can't remember.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得他是，这非常莎士比亚式。

I think he is, and that which is very Shakespearean.

我们多问些问题吧，因为我们应该让听众觉得我们认真对待他们、爱他们，而我们确实如此。

Let's do loads of questions because we should give the listeners the impression that we take them seriously and love them, which we do.

我们确实如此。

We do.

但我们应该通过回答他们的问题来做到这一点，而不是忽视这张厚厚的一叠纸

But we should do it by answering their questions rather than ignoring this colossal ream of paper that we've got

就在我们面前。

in front of us.

所以我们这里还有另一个来自保罗·邓肯的问题。

So We've got another question here from Paul Duncan.

说吧。

Go on.

他一直在抢占舞台。

He was really hogging the stage

嗯，他会很高兴的。

Well, he's gonna be happy

是的。

Yeah.

即使其他人不高兴。

Even if no one else is.

有没有关于瓦雷利亚毁灭的历史类比？

Is there any historical comparison to the doom of Valyria?

瓦雷利亚是一个古老的文明，已经被摧毁并被海水或火焰吞噬了。

So Valyria is this this old ancient civilization that has been destroyed and kind of swallowed up by the waters or something or the flames

或者什么的。

or Something

类似这样。

like that.

是的。

Yeah.

类似这样。

Something like that.

这不就是亚特兰蒂斯吗？

So it's clear Atlantis, isn't it?

或者你还有别的说法。

Or have you got some other Yeah.

别的东西？

Something else?

我想，文明确实会遭遇末日般的命运。

I suppose it's a you know, civilizations do suffer apocalyptic fates.

我们刚讨论过阿兹特克人，是吧。

We did the Aztecs Yeah.

就在几周前，我们不是刚谈过吗？

Just a couple of weeks ago, didn't we?

特奥蒂瓦坎。

Teotihuacan.

所以那是早于阿兹特克人的城市。

So that's the city that predates the Aztecs.

对吧？

Right?

那是之前存在的文明，但他们并不知道

That's the civilization that came before, and they didn't know

瓦雷利亚有点像罗马。

Valyria is kind of Rome.

在

In

《权力的游戏》中。

Game of Thrones.

这是一个曾经辉煌但已衰落的古老帝国，它的废墟如今

It's kind of an ancient empire that was great and then has fallen, and its ruins are

因为高等瓦雷利亚语是一种像拉丁语一样的语言。

Because High Valyrian is a kind of Latin that they speak.

它不是一种宏伟而尊贵的语言吗？

Isn't it a grand prestigious language or

类似这样的东西？

something like that?

也许还有一点像著名的盎格鲁-撒克逊诗歌中对巴斯废墟的感慨。

Maybe there's there's an an element also of the famous Anglo Saxon poem about looking at the ruins of Bath.

对。

Right.

想象这些令人惊叹的建筑是巨人所建，却完全不知道是谁建造了它们。

Imagining it as the work of giants and having no idea who could have built these these astonishing structures.

吉本凝视着罗马的废墟。

Gibbon looking over the ruins of Rome.

是的。

Yeah.

尽管他有所了解。

Although he knew.

他早已谈论过这一点。

He already talked about it.

他比任何人都更清楚。

He knew he knew better than anybody.

好吧，也许他并不知道，他不得不写一本500页的书。

Well, maybe he didn't know, he had to write a book of 500.

是的。

Yeah.

也许吧。

Maybe.

好的。

Okay.

威廉·詹森提了一个关于厕所的问题，我觉得你会感兴趣，因为你对人们在厕所里丧生的事情很了解。

William Jensen, he's written a question about toilets, which I think will appeal to you, because you know a lot about people being killed on toilets.

他说他在讨论历史风格与神话风格的区别。

He says is there something he's talking about the historical versus the mythical style.

他说，很难想象托尔金笔下的角色萨鲁曼或戴恩索尔会像泰温·兰尼斯特那样死在厕所里。

He says it's it's impossible to imagine Tolkien's character, Saruman or Denethor, being killed on a toilet like Tywin Lannister.

马丁的写作风格更接地气，我们觉得这更真实。

Martin is writing in a lower register, which we take as being more realistic.

这是一个关于语体的有趣问题，因为在中世纪确实有人死在厕所里。

Well, that's an interesting question about registers and because people were killed on toilets in the medieval.

你有没有一些关于这方面的精彩故事？

Don't you have some good stories about that?

蓝牙哈拉尔，他的名字被用来命名了

Harold Bluetooth, who gave his name to the,

这项技术。

the technology.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

蓝牙。

To Bluetooth.

他当时正在和他儿子假扮的分叉胡子作斗争。

He, he was having a he was fighting his son's feigned forked beard.

我们之前在播客里好像已经提过这个了吧？

Think we've already mentioned this on the podcast, haven't we?

而且他

And he

他叫十六六。

he Ten sixty six.

是的。

Yeah.

他下船后去上厕所。

He got off his ship, had a crap.

他上厕所的时候，被人从后面射了一枪。

As he was having a crap, bloke shot him in the ass.

所以，实际上，马丁这里很符合中世纪的风格。

So, actually, Martin has been true to medieval form there.

但他就在那里。

But it's he's right there.

这种事不会发生在托尔金身上。

It it wouldn't happen to Tolkien.

托尔金写的是

Tolkien is writing about

托尔金，托尔金，你那里有两个语体，对吧？

Tolkien Tolkien, you've there are two registers, aren't there?

有霍比特人。

There's the hobbits.

我的意思是，我同意他们不会被射中屁股，但他们确实会喝酒、抽烟斗。

I mean, I agree that they don't get shot in the ass, but they kind of you know, they have drink and smoke pipes.

烟斗。

Pipes.

是的。

Yeah.

然后还有高雅的部分，那是在向莎士比亚致敬。

And that's and then you have the high stuff, and that's that's going back to Shakespeare.

比如《亨利四世》第一部和第二部，有国王和贵族使用的崇高诗体。

So Henry the fourth part one and two, you've got the high black verse of, you know, kings and nobles and so on.

然后还有酒馆里人们说的口语。

And then you've got, you know, all the the the prose of, people in the taverns.

而马丁几乎完全使用一种语体来写作，我认为。

Whereas Martin is writing almost entirely in one register, I would say.

他写的是散文，对吧

He's writing prose right

贯穿始终。

right through.

因此，完全感受不到那种宏伟感。

So there's no sense of the kind of grandeur.

而且我认为，角色们也几乎没有表现出对这种宏伟的向往，

And there's no sense even that the characters really aspire to that, I don't think, by large, that

除了丹妮莉丝·坦格利安之外。

they're Except for Daenerys Targaryen Blair.

是的。

Yeah.

这很糟糕。

It's bad.

我只是喜欢这个比较。

It's only I love that comparison.

这是我从这个播客、实际上是从整个系列中唯一会记住的事情。

That that's the one thing I shall take from this podcast, from this entire series, actually.

萨拉曼多问，历史上真的有铁银行吗？

Saramandingo says, was there a historical iron bank?

我喜欢铁银行。

I like the iron bank.

所以这是一个存在于厄索斯的文艺复兴时期类型的机构。

So that's this sort of renaissance type institution, which exists in Essos.

我想不起是哪个城市了，那是在东大陆，他们资助了大量战争，对吧？

I can't remember which city, which is the Eastern Continent, and they're bankrolling a lot of the war, aren't they?

他们基本上就是意大利的银行，对吧？

They're basically Italian banks, aren't they?

他们有点像意大利的，是的。

They're sort of Italian Yeah.

威尼斯的、佛罗伦萨的或热那亚的。

Venetian or Florentine or Genoese.

但实际上并没有。

There isn't really, though.

因为铁金库的特点不就是，如果你违约了，他们会来找你吗？

Because isn't the thing about the the iron bank that it it kind of if you default on your debts, they will come and get you.

是的。

Yes.

所以他们就像一个黑手党银行。

So they're a kind of mafia bank.

是的。

Yes.

我想是的。

I suppose so.

我想是的。

Suppose so.

而中世纪的国王们一旦违约，银行就会倒闭。

Whereas medieval kings had had you know, they would default, then the banks would go bust.

是的。

Yeah.

我想是这样的。

I suppose that's yes.

我想佛罗伦萨人可能没有足够的手段，如果你借钱了，他们大概也做不了什么，我不知道。

I suppose the Florentines didn't have sufficient you know, if you did borrow money, they they probably couldn't do I don't know.

他们能对此做些什么吗？

Could they do much about it?

他们能派雇佣兵去抓你吗？

Could they send mercenaries to go and get you or something?

嗯，我想你可以资助一个竞争对手国王，对吧？

Well, I suppose you could sponsor a rival king, couldn't you?

是的。

Yeah.