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克伦威尔，我们众人的领袖，以信仰与无与伦比的坚韧，不仅拨开了战争的阴云，更驱散了粗鄙的诽谤，开辟了通往和平与真理的光辉之路，并在傲慢王权的颈项上竖起了上帝的丰碑。
Cromwell, our chief of men, who threw a cloud not of war only, but detractions rude, guided by faith and a matchless fortitude, to peace and truth thy glorious way has plowed, and on the neck of crowned fortune proud hast reared god's trophies.
这是约翰·弥尔顿在1652年为奥利弗·克伦威尔所作的一首十四行诗，距离查理一世被处决仅三年。
That was John Milton writing a sonnet in honor of Oliver Cromwell in 1652, three years after the execution of Charles the first.
就在不久之前，令弥尔顿震惊的是，克伦威尔竟成为了护国公。
And shortly before, to Milton's horror, Cromwell would become lord protector.
和我在一起的是著名的圆颅党人，多米尼克·桑布鲁克。
With me is noted round head, Dominic Sandbrook.
多米尼克。
Dominic.
多米尼克。
Dominic.
这是一段精彩的开场白。
That's a lovely introduction.
你是否同意弥尔顿对护国公克伦威尔的这种评价？
Would you would you agree with, with Milton in in, in Lordy Cromwell in that way?
你是他的粉丝吗？
Are you a fan?
其实我是他的粉丝。
I I am a fan, actually.
我觉得你大概可以把人们分成两类，你知道吗，就像那句老话：在马斯顿荒原之战中，你会站在哪一边？
I think you can probably divide people, can't you, into there was that old line, you know, what what what side would you have fought on at Marston Moor?
我觉得可以把人们分成克伦威尔派和非克伦威尔派。
And I think you can divide people into Cromwellians and non Cromwellians.
我绝对是克伦威尔派。
I'm definitely a Cromwellian.
在我看来，汤姆，这是一个很大的说法——我认为克伦威尔是我最喜爱的英国政治领袖，甚至在我心中比斯坦利·鲍德温和吉姆·卡拉汉还要出色。
In my view, Tom, and this is a big statement, I would Cromwell is my favorite British political leader, even better than Stanley Baldwin in my mind, and Jim Callahan.
我觉得克伦威尔绝对是顶尖的，我真的很喜欢克伦威尔。
I think Cromwell is right up there, right at the I I love Cromwell.
我觉得他太有意思了。
I think he's he's so interesting.
太有趣了。
So interesting.
最喜欢，是指他最有趣的英国人，是吧。
Favorite in in in the sense that he's the most interesting British Yeah.
但‘最喜欢’是指你钦佩他的成就。
But the favorite as in as in you admire his achievement.
我觉得，你知道吗？
I think and do you know what?
两者都是。
Both.
我钦佩他，因为他所处的位置，其他英国人从未拥有过，除了他的儿子理查德·克伦威尔，担任过护国公，掌握最高权力。
I I and I'd I'd admire him for the fact he had he was in a position that no other Englishman has ever been in other than Richard Cromwell, his son, being law protector, having supreme power.
而且我认为，总的来说，权力能揭示一个人的本性，而它确实以相当正面的方式展现了他。
And I think by and large, you know, power reveals character, and I think it revealed him in a pretty good light, actually.
我觉得，这并没有特别地腐蚀他。
I think, you know, it didn't corrupt particularly.
他并没有表现得特别糟糕。
He didn't behave especially badly.
我知道爱尔兰听众现在可能已经气得把手机扔到房间另一头了。
Now I know Irish listeners are already, you know, just throwing their phones across the the room in fury.
但总的来说，我是个十足的克伦威尔粉丝。
But by and large, I'm a big, big Cromwell fan.
好的。
Okay.
正如你所说，很多人对克伦威尔的评价持不同意见。
Well, as you suggested, there are lots of people who would disagree with that, verdict on Cromwell.
我的意思是，他曾是内战中一方的领导人。
I mean, he he was the leader of one side in a civil war.
因此，保王派普遍对他没什么好感。
So, obviously, royalists by and large tend not to be keen on him.
你提到了爱尔兰，在爱尔兰，他的名声简直一塌糊涂。
And you mentioned Ireland, and in Ireland, his his name is is basically mud.
所以我们需要有人来引导我们，我认为，去理解克伦威尔生平以及我们本集特别关注的那段时期的复杂性、矛盾与模糊之处，这段时期大致是从查理一世被处决到他的儿子查理二世复辟。
So we need someone to guide us, I think, through the, the complexities and the ambivalences and the ambiguities, not just of of Cromwell's life, but, of the period that we're particularly focusing on in this episode, which is, I guess, call it the British the period from Charles the first execution up to the restoration of his son, Charles the second.
而最能为我们提供这种引导的人，莫过于《今日历史》的编辑保罗·莱。
And there is no better person to provide us with that guidance than Paul Lay, who is editor of History Today.
更重要的是，他还是那本精彩著作《失落的天命：克伦威尔护国政体的兴衰》的作者，这本书广受赞誉。
But also, more saliently for our purposes, author of a fabulous book, Providence Lost, The Rise and Fall of Cromwell's Protectorate, absolutely garlanded with praise.
所以，保罗，非常感谢你来到节目中与我们交流。
So, Paul, thanks so much for coming on and joining us.
你能帮我们澄清一下吗？克伦威尔是英雄还是败类？
And can you help us out, Cromwell, hero or zero?
当然都不是。
Well, neither, of course.
我部分同意多米尼克的观点，认为他是最引人入胜的人物，但我觉得让他更加迷人的是，他极其难以捉摸，而这正是他容易被神话化的原因。
I agree with Dominic to a certain extent that he's the most fascinating character, but he's also, and I think this is what makes him even more fascinating for me, is that he's incredibly elusive, and I think this is why the man lends himself to mythology.
关于克伦威尔，总有很多空白需要填补。
There's always an awful lot to fill in with Cromwell.
我的意思是，这个人在生命的前三分之二时间里几乎默默无闻。
I mean, this is a man who's almost nothing for the first two thirds of his life.
他在历史记录中几乎不存在。
He barely exists in the records.
然后在43岁那年，他突然开始投身于英国历史上最伟大的骑兵指挥官行列之一，我们可以讨论他在其中的排名。
And then suddenly at the age of 43, he becomes, or he sets out on a career as one of the great cavalry commanders in British history, and we can discuss where he ranks there.
但接着，正如多米尼克所说，他成为了一个几乎独一无二的人物，我认为他确实是独一无二的，因为理查德根本无法与之相提并论，尽管他短暂地占据过那个职位。
But then he becomes this, as Dominic says, this almost unique figure, and I think he is unique because Richard is not remotely comparable really apart from the position he held for a brief while.
他是一位试图创造某种东西的独特国家元首，我认为这种努力源于一种道德和神学上的追求。
He is this unique head of state who tries to create something that I think is born of a kind of moral and theological endeavour.
从某种意义上说，他的遗产是持续不断的。
And in some sense, the legacy is a continuous one.
即使在复辟之后，君主制也从未真正回到从前的样子。
The monarchy never returns even after the restoration in the sense that it was before that.
再也不会有类似查理个人专制那样的统治了。
There's never a kind of Charles' personal rule or anything like that.
在这段时间里，议会逐渐占据上风。
Parliament becomes in the ascendant over that time.
仍有一些问题有待解决。
There are still things to be worked out.
从根本上说，他塑造了我们，我认为他所进行的斗争、所倡导的理念至今仍具有共鸣，尤其是我想到了T。
Essentially he does define us and I think the battle that he waged, the ideas that he waged, is still resonant now and I think in particular of T.
S.
S.
艾略特在《四个四重奏》中一首隐晦的诗里提到，火焰与玫瑰在国家内部、在我们内心常常相互竞争，就像吉尔伯特与沙利文的那句歌词：每个活着的男孩和女孩都多少带点自由派或保守派的色彩。
Eliot's poem, A Little Hidden in The Four Quartets, when he talks about the fire and the rose that compete within the nation and compete within ourselves often, think, like the Gilbert and Sullivan line that every boy and girl alive is a little bit liberal or a little bit conservativ.
这些正是我们在克伦威尔身上看到的斗争，也是克伦威尔在塑造的这个国家中所体现的。
And those are the battles that we see in Cromwell to a certain extent, but in the nation that Cromwell was so important in forging.
但保罗，有趣的是，他既不是半个自由派，也不是半个保守派，任何一方都无法真正宣称他属于自己吗？
But Paul, isn't the interesting thing that he's not a little liberal or a little conservative that either side can claim him?
这正是他如此迷人之处——他某种程度上包容了所有英国政治。
And that's what's so fascinating about him, that he contains all, in a way, he contains all English politics.
你不这么认为吗？
Don't you think?
是的。
Yes.
我认为他是这样的，因为左翼有很多人把他视为英雄，仅仅因为他是个共和主义者；当然，右翼的一些人也认为他很重要，因为他是个英国民族主义者。
I think he does because I think there's a lot of people on the left who regard him as heroic because they see him as a republican for that alone, and then there are of course people on the right who see him as important because he's an English nationalist.
他有着深刻英国例外论的思想，我认为他也是宗教自由的捍卫者。
He has this profound idea of English exceptionalism, he is a defender of religious liberty too, I think.
我的意思是，天主教徒显然会对此提出异议，但就他对一种相当包容的宗教安排的承诺而言，以17世纪中期的标准来看，他确实是一个非凡的人物。
I mean Catholics obviously would counter that, but in terms of his commitment to a really quite capacious religious settlement, certainly by the standards of the mid seventeenth century, he's a pretty remarkable figure.
他还是英国陆军的主要缔造者之一，尽管我认为他有时被遗忘了。
And he also has this central role as one of the creators of the British Army too, though I think he's probably sometimes forgotten.
还有舰队，不是吗？
And the fleet, didn't he?
是的。
Yes.
嗯，那艘战舰叫马斯顿莫尔，我一直觉得这名字特别酷，还是从你的书里了解到的。
Well, that's a battleship called the Marston Moor, which I always thought was very cool, which I learned from your book.
是的。
Yes.
等等，战舰以摩尔人命名？真的吗？
Mean, battleships named after Moors, are they?
不是的。
No.
而且，说到马斯顿莫尔，我突然想到，对于那些对内战各场战役不太熟悉的人来说，也许在深入讨论克伦威尔本人、护国公政体等之前，我们该先理清一些关键背景。
And, actually, you know, talking about Marston Moor, it it suddenly strikes me that perhaps for for people who aren't entirely on top of all their various civil war battles and so on, perhaps we should just set key things up before we get onto onto Cromwell himself and the protectorate and everything.
多米尼克，你最擅长这个了。
Dominic, you're very good at that.
要不你简单快速地总结一下内战的概况？
Why don't you just quickly give a very quick breakdown of of sum up the civil war in
三十秒内？
thirty seconds?
继续说。
Go on.
谢谢你，汤姆。
Thank you, Tom.
谢谢你，汤姆。
Thank you, Tom.
上周我成功地用几句话总结了《权力的游戏》，没让推特炸锅。
Well, I did manage to sum up Game of Thrones last week without Twitter going wild.
所以，英国内战——
So well, the English Civil War
这可不容易说清楚。
is a tough one.
这真的是英国内战吗？
And is it the English Civil War?
嗯，那是另一个问题了。
Well, that's whole different question.
好的。
Okay.
好吧，保罗，你得原谅我，简单来说，你身处17世纪的英格兰或17世纪的不列颠。
Well, Paul, you have to forgive me for So, basically, you're in seventeenth century England or seventeenth century Britain.
查理一世一直在没有议会的情况下独自统治。
Charles the first has been ruling on his own without parliament.
他似乎有点把自己当成一位绝对君主。
He slightly sort of seems to fancy himself as an absolute monarch.
但在1630年代末，一切事情同时出了问题。
But at the end of the sixteen thirties, everything goes wrong at once.
因此，在爱尔兰爆发了一场大规模叛乱，那里长期以来一直存在天主教徒对英格兰新教统治的不满和怨恨。
So there's a big rebellion in Ireland where there's been sort of discontent simmering in this sort of Catholic, resentment, sort of English Protestantism and stuff.
与此同时，由于查理试图强加一本新的祈祷书，苏格兰也爆发了叛乱或战争。
At the same time, there is a rebellion or or a war breaks out with the Scots over a prayer book that Charles is trying to impose.
因此，这三个王国中有两个实际上都在反抗。
So so two of these three kingdoms are, as it were, in revolt.
查尔斯对苏格兰的战争变得非常糟糕。
Charles the war gets very bad against the Scots.
查尔斯需要更多资金，
Charles needs more money,
而他唯一的方式就是
and the only way he
通过重新召集议会来获得更多资金。
can get more money is by recalling parliament.
但议会不喜欢他。
But parliament doesn't like him.
他们僵持不下。
They're at loggerheads.
他竖起旗帜，号召人们支持他反对议会，于是国王与议会之间爆发了内战，也就是保皇党与圆颅党之间的战争——熟悉这些术语的人会知道。
He raises his standard and says, you know, rally to me against parliament, and civil war breaks out between king and parliament, so between cavaliers and round heads for people who are familiar with those terms.
所以这是一场多层面的内战。
So you've got this sort of multifaceted civil war.
长话短说，第一次内战对查理来说非常不利。
To cut a very long story short, the first civil war goes very badly for Charles.
他输了。
He loses.
但在那个时候，议会派并不想杀他，也不想
But at that point, the parliamentarians don't want to kill him, and they don't want
把他赶下台
to sort of kick him
之类的。
out or anything.
他们相信君主制。
They believe in the monarchy.
他们只是想要与查尔斯达成更好的协议。
They just want a better deal with Charles.
所以他们正在与查尔斯谈判。
So they're talking to Charles.
他们把他软禁起来，试图和他达成协议，而且认为自己一定能成功。
They've got him kinda locked up, and they're trying to get a deal with him, and they think they're gonna get a deal.
但查尔斯却在背后耍花招。
But Charles goes behind their back.
他秘密与苏格兰人达成协议——那是他三个王国中的一个，但同时也是他昔日的宿敌。
He does a secret deal with the Scots, so one of his three kingdoms, but the sort of his old enemy as it were.
苏格兰人出兵对抗议会军，于是爆发了第二次内战。
The Scots pile in against the parliamentarians, and there's now a second civil war.
这个极其复杂的故事，此刻就像《权力的游戏》一样出现了惊天转折。
So this incredibly complicated story has taken this game of Throne Star twist.
第二次内战中，议会军凭借新模范军取得了胜利，而这支军队的核心人物正是奥利弗·克伦威尔。
Well, the second civil war, but the parliament wins that as well, thanks to its new model army, of which the sort of leading light is Oliver Cromwell.
现在，他们已经赢得了两次内战。
So now they've won two civil wars.
他们决定再也不能和查尔斯达成任何协议了，因为他已证明自己完全不可信。
They've decided that they can't do any sort of deal with Charles because he's proven himself utterly untrustworthy.
他被称为‘血手之人’，国家的叛徒，反基督的代理人，背叛了自己的人民，因此他必须被除掉。
He is, as they call him, the man of blood, the traitor to his country, sort of agent of the Antichrist who has betrayed his people, so he's got to go.
于是他们决定砍下他的头。
So they decide to cut his head off.
他们举行了一场公开审判。
They have a show trial.
他的头被砍下后，人们开始疑问：接下来我们到底该怎么办？
Off goes his head, and then that raises the question, well, what on earth are we gonna do next?
就在这个时候，这位伟大的新模范军骑兵将领、前议员、充满激情的奥利弗·克伦威尔正式登上历史舞台。
And that's the point at which this great new model army cavalry general and former parliamentarian sort of, firebrand, Oliver Cromwell, fully enters the stage.
这是否也是我们可以回到保罗·多米尼克的时候了？
And is this also the point where we can go back to Paul Dominic?
我认为现在该让保罗来继续讲下去了。
I think Paul should now do all the rest of the talking.
好的。
Yeah.
好的。
Okay.
那比预期稍长了一些，但非常好。
That was that was slightly longer than expected, but very, very good.
好的。
Okay.
所以，保罗，你能简单介绍一下克伦威尔及其同僚与查理谈判失败后发生了什么吗？
So, Paul, you just just give us the brief sketch of what happens when, Cromwell and the negotiators of Cromwell and others like him with Charles fails.
查理上了断头台。
Charles goes to the block.
他的头被砍了下来。
His head's chopped off.
然后发生了什么？
What then happens?
请简要概述接下来大约十年的情况。
Just very brief sketch of the decade or so that follows.
好吧，虽然不想过多类比，但查理一世的审判和处决是由一小群人做出的极其大胆的决定，却并不知道接下来该做什么。
Well, without trying to draw too many parallels, the trial and execution of Charles I is a relatively small group of people making a very, very bold decision but not knowing what to do next.
因此，立即迫切需要稳定国家局势。
And so there's an urgency immediately to settle the country.
这并没有什么特别不同。
That's not particularly different.
这也不特别困难。
That's not particularly difficult.
内战后的英格兰，像所有内战后的国家一样，渴望和平并希望获得某种稳定。
England after civil war, like all countries after civil war, seeks peace and wants some kind of stability.
记住，这是霍布斯的时代。
Remember, this is the age of Hobbes.
就连霍布斯——这位曾担任流亡中的年轻查理二世数学导师的人——也接受了这个政权。
And even Hobbes, the former mathematics tutor to the young exiled Charles II, for example, is one who finds his peace with the regime.
因此，有很多人希望达成和解。
So there's a lot of people who want to reach a settlement.
但同时也存在大量反对声音。
But there's also a great deal of opposition.
苏格兰有一些反对者，不过总体而言，英格兰议会对于其同为加尔文教派的同胞还是持友好态度的。
There's some in Scotland, although on the whole the English Parliament is reasonably well disposed to their fellow Calvinists on the whole.
但接下来是爱尔兰问题，这是新宣布的共和国所采取的首个重大行动——征服爱尔兰。
But then there is the issue of Ireland, which is the first great act, the conquest of Ireland, that takes place with this Commonwealth that's been announced.
这里是我们处于一种英格兰共和共和国的状态。
Here is the bit where we are in a kind of English republican Commonwealth.
上议院已被废除，议会占据主导地位，君主制已不复存在。
The House of Lords has been abandoned, Parliament is in the Ascendant, the monarchy is gone.
这正是我们最接近这种状态的时候。
This is the closest we get to that.
但在其中，克伦威尔更像是一个头号海盗，他之所以拥有巨大的军事和政治影响力，仅仅是因为他过去的功绩，比如在纳西比战役和苏格兰战役中的表现。
But within that Cromwell is a prima sinter pirate, someone who merely has substantial military and political role because of his deeds in the past, whether that's at events like Nasby and in the Scottish campaign.
因此他拥有这样的声誉，但迄今为止，除了在审判和处决国王中的角色外，他还不是一个真正的政治人物。
And so he has this reputation but as yet he's not a political figure beyond his role in the trial and execution.
所以到目前为止，还有很多事情需要决定。
So there's still a lot to decide at this point.
各种可能性都存在。
All kinds of possibilities are possible.
保罗，我能插一句，稍微回溯一下吗？
And, Paul, can I jump in and take us back a tiny bit?
在那个时期，克伦威尔在战争前就已经是议员了。
So Cromwell at that point, he'd been an MP before the war.
他在战争期间是一位出色的骑兵指挥官。
He'd been a fantastic cavalry commander during the war.
但他是怎样的一个人呢？我的意思是，如果你见到他，他会是个什么样的人？
But what kind of a man I mean I mean, if you'd met him, what kind of a man was he?
我的意思是，他显然经历过重生，对吧？
I mean, obviously, he was born again, wasn't he?
他是个重生的基督徒，但同时也非常朴实、好辩，而且常常相当愤怒。
He's a sort of born again Christian, but he's also earthy and and disputatious and often quite angry.
我的意思是，如果你走进一个房间，看到他本人，他这个人到底是什么样的？
And I mean I mean, if, you know, if you walked into a room and there he is, what's he what's he like as a man?
我认为他并不是那种我们通常认为的典型的17世纪清教徒。
Well, I don't think he's a natural or or at least what we think of as a natural seventeenth century Puritan.
他是一个会喝酒的人。
This is a man who drinks.
他是一个会抽烟的人。
This is a man who smokes.
他是一个喜欢音乐的人。
This is a man who enjoys music.
他不是个知识分子，但关于这一点
He's no intellectual, but On that
顺便说一句，斯派克·西尔提出的这个问题很棒：克伦威尔早年的板球生涯如何影响了他后来的宗教信仰？
note, great question from Spike Searle, who says, what way did Cromwell's early cricketing career influence his later religious beliefs?
我觉得这非常重要，你肯定会说，是的。
I think that's very important to and you will say to yeah.
他非常热衷于板球，据说年轻时还踢过足球。
He was very keen on cricket, and he played football apparently according to when he was a young man.
但当然，他因在安息日禁止板球而臭名昭著。
But then, of course, he's notorious for for banning cricket on, on the Sabbath day.
这恰恰体现了那种张力，不是吗？
And that kind of sums up the, the tension, doesn't it?
投球手、击球手，还是圆帽？
Bowler, batsman, or round hood?
你知道吗？
You know what?
我我不
I I don't
我觉得他对此并不感兴趣。
he's I don't think he's into that.
他是否代表过次级郡参赛？我根据他的出生地一直这么假设。
Did he represent the minor counties I've assumed given his birthplace?
我不确定。
I'm not sure.
怀疑。
Suspect.
我不知道。
I don't know.
我不知道。
I don't know.
但是，我
But, I
我的意思是，他是个铁杆球迷，我想，所以可能是个击球手。
mean, he he well, he's an iron side, I guess, so probably a batsman.
这清楚地解释了他为什么想去西印度群岛，我想，以便在那里获得财产。
Well, it makes clear why he'd wished to go to the West Indies, I suppose, and gain possessions there.
也许吧。
Maybe.
我不知道。
I don't know.
也许在那个时候，板球被引入了那里。
Maybe he maybe cricket was introduced to that point.
第一个
The first
加勒比巡回赛。
Caribbean tour.
我觉得我们在这里跑题了。
I think we're getting distracted here.
总之，我想说的是，他完全有能力喜欢板球、音乐、绘画或任何其他东西，但与此同时，他显然把宗教视为一切。
Anyway, the point I wanted to make was that he's perfectly capable, say, of liking cricket or liking music or painting or whatever, but at the same time, he he he's clearly religion is everything to him.
是的。
Yes.
宗教化解了这种矛盾。
Religion is square that that kind of that paradox.
那是方的圆。
That's square that circle.
因此，我怀疑最终——我认为多米尼克曾暗示过这一点——这种‘海绿色的不可腐蚀者’的理念，在某种程度上是成立的。
So I suspect that in the end, and I think this is something that Dominic alluded to, this idea of a sea green incorruptible in many ways, I think is true to a certain extent.
上帝决定的事，终究会发生。
What God decides is what will happen anyway.
我的意思是，他完全认同预定论的思想，即一切早已注定。
I mean he is perfectly attuned to the idea of predestination, that it's all being worked out anyway.
他只是在确认自己是否站在正确的一方，并践行上帝的旨意。
He's simply looking to see if he's on the right side and doing God's will.
而在这种信念中，仍留有相当大的空间，供某种激进主义存在。
And within that there's a fair amount of space for a certain kind of galvanist.
如果一个人得救了，那他终究是得救的。
If one is saved, one is saved anyway.
我认为他并不是那种以禁欲为乐的苛刻清教徒。
And I don't think he's the kind of malicious Puritan in terms of pleasure.
我的意思是，关于他在女儿婚礼上喝得酩酊大醉、又跳又笑的故事有很多。
I mean there are great stories about him being at his daughter's wedding where he's drunk and he's dancing and he's joking.
还有一个著名的说法，不管真假，说他在签署登记簿时往上面泼墨水，这些事你得打点折扣来看。
There are, you know, the famous account, whether it's true or not, about him flicking ink at the time that the register was signed, you know, you have to take these things with a bit of a pinch of salt.
同样，我们面临着关于克伦威尔的神话——他神秘莫测，记录也开放多变。
Again, we've got this mythology, the elusiveness of Cromwell, that openness of the record.
但根据所有记载，他并不符合那个时代与普赖斯·盖德·巴伯恩或弥尔顿等人物相关的极端清教徒形象，我认为弥尔顿在道德和行为上或许是一位更严苛的清教徒。
But from all accounts this is not a man who fits in with the very, very austere Puritanism that is associated with this time in figures such as Praise God Barebone or even Milton, who I think was perhaps a more formidable Puritan in a in a in that kind of moral and behavioral sense.
在我们回到政治的严肃话题之前，我得在汤姆之前先问一个问题。
Before we get back to the the seriousness of the politics, I have to ask before Tom does.
他真的被一只猴子绑架过吗？
Is it true that he was kidnapped by a monkey
在安格斯？
in Angus?
小的。
Small.
而且，据说他小时候曾与未来的查理一世打过架——我确信这是假的，但我肯定在《Lady Bird》这本书里读到过。
And is it also true that as a boy I'm I'm certain this is false, but I'm sure I read it in the Lady Bird book that he had a fight with the the the future Charles the first.
那是你的名字。
That's your name.
他们俩都在《Lady Bird》这本书里出现过。
They were both in the Lady Bird book.
他们确实出现在《Lady Bird》这本书里。
They were in the Lady Bird book.
我记得很清楚。
I remember it very well.
我记得那本书里只有爱尔兰人反对他，我认为是这样。
That's the book where only the Irish take against him, I believe.
是的。
Yes.
但我从未见过任何证据，而且我认为从来没有人真正证实过。
But I have seen no evidence, and I don't think anyone has ever ever has done.
但我很好奇这个故事的来源是什么。
But I wonder where that story comes from.
我的意思是，你的朋友泰德·瓦拉姆斯写过关于这个的事。
Well, I mean, your friend Ted Vallams wrote about
是吗？
Did he?
是的。
Yes.
而且他
And he
对。
yeah.
他追溯到一个十九世纪早期的来源，我想。
And he he traced it back, I think, to an early nineteenth century source.
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
这正是你会想象的。
That's what you'd imagine.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
让我们回到之前，我们偏离了政治话题。
Let's go back to we got sidetracked from the politics.
对不起，保罗。
Sorry, Paul.
我们聊聊
Let's talk
你和我的猴子、我的猴子谈话吧。
you off with my my my monkey my monkey talk.
我把你从保护国的政治话题上带开了。
I took you off from the politics of the protectorate.
让我们回到我们之前讨论的地方。
So let's go back to where we were.
这里有一个灰色地带，不是吗？
There's this sort of gray area, isn't there?
查尔森的头被砍了下来。
Charlson had a head cut off.
他们到底谁来统治英国？
They kinda is who's gonna run Britain?
是军队，是议会，还是其他什么人。
The the the army, the the parliament, or whatever.
在那个时候，克伦威尔本质上只是一个士兵。
And at that point, Cromwell's just a soldier, basically.
他并不是一个真正的政治人物。
Is he he's not really a political figure.
是吗？
Is that right?
嗯，从某种意义上说，他确实是一个政治人物，因为他在这场对查理的审判和处决中扮演了非常突出的角色。
Well, he's a political figure in the sense that he's played a very prominent role in the trial and execution of Charles.
我的意思是，我认为在第二次内战期间及之后，某些议会成员——尤其是克伦威尔——的态度发生了巨大转变。
I mean, I I think you see a big shift between attitudes of certain parliamentarians, particularly Cromwell, after rather during the second civil war.
因为到那时，查理作为“流血之人”的形象已经浮现出来。
Because I think by that time, this idea of Charles as a man of blood emerges.
即使像克伦威尔这样原本支持君主制、并非激进共和派的人，也对这个人的虚伪行径深恶痛绝，他们认为摆脱困境的唯一途径就是审判并最终处决这个‘流血之人’。
And even people like Cromwell, who are partial to the idea of monarchy, are not at all ideological Republicans, are sick to the back teeth of this man's duplicitous, and they see the only way out of this is through trial and then ultimately execution of this man of blood.
但正如我所说，他们完全不知道接下来该做什么。
But as I said, they've absolutely no idea what to do next.
出于安全考虑，他们必须处理苏格兰和爱尔兰的问题。
They have to deal with, for security reasons alone, with Scotland and Ireland.
但一旦爱尔兰在1650年被克伦威尔基本征服后，他们就必须寻求一种解决方案。
But then once Ireland is conquered to the extent that Cromwell was involved in it in 1650, they then have to reach for a settlement.
于是，他们与议会达成了一项协议，让议会自行解散。
And there is a kind of deal that's reached with the Parliament that it will make itself redundant.
但这一情况并未真正发生，我认为这正是克伦威尔真正崛起为主导人物的时刻，议会被彻底驱逐、削弱、掏空，于是突然需要一种新的解决方案。
But that doesn't really happen, and I think that's the point when Cromwell really emerges as the dominant figure and Parliament is just thrown out, it's reduced, it's denuded, And suddenly some kind of new settlement is needed.
对此，他们进行了多种尝试。
And there are various experiments with this.
但这些议会实验中的第一次，恰恰揭示了围绕克伦威尔以及当时在政坛上崛起的那些人，实际上都是宗教原教旨主义者——而克伦威尔本人绝非其中最极端的。
But the first one of those parliamentary experiments is the one I think that reveals just how much the figures around Cromwell and the people who were then in the ascendant in the state were really religious fundamentalists, of which Cromwell was by no means the extreme.
我所指的是提名议会，也被称为巴本议会，得名于一位名叫普赖斯·戈德·巴本的清教徒皮革商人。
What I'm talking about there is the nominated assembly, which is also known as Barebones Parliament, after a Puritan leather trader called Praise God Barebones.
这一制度的构想源自托马斯·哈里森，他曾与克伦威尔并肩作战，是一名将军，也是名为‘第五君主派’团体的领袖。
And what this is modelled on, and this is the brainchild of Thomas Harrison, who's fought alongside Cromwell, a general, who is the leader of a group called the Fifth Monarchists.
这群人信仰奇特，简而言之，他们认为英格兰是过去伟大帝国的继承者，只要他们在英格兰实现其政治与神学计划，基督便会作为第五位君主归来，一切就此终结。
Bizarre beliefs who, to cut a long story short, see England as being the inheritor of the great empires of the past and that if they fulfill their political and theological plans in England, Christ will return as this fifth monarch and that will be the end of it all.
因此，你能真切感受到这里所存在的种种怪异信仰。
So I mean you get a real sense of the kind of bizarre beliefs that you have here.
这些观点即使在当时也极为极端，而且在这一时期并未得到英国公众的认同。
They are extreme even by the time and certainly are not ones adhered to by the English public at this point.
它被称为提名议会，因为理论上应由140位具有真正信仰、正直可靠的清教徒组成。
You have it's called the Nominated Assembly because it's supposed to be filled with 140 people who have the root of the matter in them good, sound, Puritan figures.
理论上他们应由各个独立教会提名，但实际上并非如此。
They're supposed to be nominated by the individual churches, independent churches, but actually not.
大多数人选是由国务委员会决定的，而当时实际上是由他们和克伦威尔等人掌控大局。
Most of them are decided by the Council of State, which along with Romans basically running things at this point.
尽管它的模式仿照了旧约中的犹太公会，但其实际运作远没有你想象的那么疯狂。
And it's by no means as mad in terms of the practices as you might think from the way it's modelled on the Old Testament Sanhedrin.
它推动了许多亟需的法律改革，当时议会阵营中一直有不少律师。
It puts through quite a few reforms of the law that are much needed, there's always quite a few lawyers around the parliamentary side.
但它与军队发生了冲突，而关键就在于此：这十年间发生的一切，最终都依赖于军队的权力。
But it rubs up against the army, and here is the rub, because everything in the end that takes place during this decade is ultimately dependent upon the power of the army.
如果军队不支持，事情就根本不会发生。
If the army doesn't want it, it doesn't really happen.
克伦威尔是关键人物，因为他在这时拥有足够的声望，使双方都愿意信任他并倚重他。
And Cromwell is the significant figure because he's the person who has the kind of trust or enough trust on both sides for them to invest in with the prominence he has at this point.
然而，提名议会最终失败了，因为它没有给军队提供足够的资金，这在这一时期是一个普遍现象。
However, the nominated assembly does fail because it doesn't give enough money to the army and this is a common theme throughout this period.
因此，托马斯·哈里森逐渐淡出，取而代之的是另一位人物。
And so another figure emerges instead of Thomas Harrison, rather disappears to the margins here.
而崛起的人物正是当时备受瞩目的约翰·兰伯特——我们谈论的是1653至1654年期间。他拥有几乎与克伦威尔一样辉煌的军事生涯，在提名议会内斗不休时，他主导起草了世界上第一部成文宪法，即《政府约法》。
And the person who emerges is the figure who's very much seen at this point and we're talking about sixteen fifty three-fifty four here who is John Lambert, who has had a military career almost as spectacular as Cromwell's who spends most of the time while the nominated assembly is bickering coming up with the world's first written constitution which is the instrument of government.
这一宪法除了其他诸多作用外，还将国王、上议院和下议院的传统三权结构，重新配置为一种新的三权体系——护国公（这一职位将被授予克伦威尔，因为人们清楚他不太可能接受王冠），无论是否神圣。
And what that does, among many other things, is reconfigure the trinity of king, lords and commons into a new trinity, holy or not, of protector, which is the position that will be offered to Cromwell knowing that he's unlikely to take the crown.
取而代之的是，你有了一个由兰伯特等政权核心人物组成的国务委员会，以及一个此时已严重削弱的议会。
And you have instead of the Lord a council of state with people like Lambert around him, the great and good of the regime, and then you have parliament, which is pretty denuded by this point.
这就是克伦威尔所同意的解决方案，护国政体由此正式开始。
So that's the settlement to which Cromwell agrees, and that is when the protectorate begins.
那么，称克伦威尔为独裁者是否公平呢？
And is it fair to talk of Cromwell there as a dictator?
这说法太强烈了吗？
Is that too strong?
我知道在二十世纪之交，人们确实这么谈论过。
I know people did talk at the turn of the twentieth century.
他们放眼国外，觉得克伦威尔像是现代独裁者的雏形。
Looking abroad, they thought, oh, Cromwell was a sort of prototype for modern dictators.
但你觉得这种说法是错的，还是认为他本质上是一个具有明显现代特征的军事强人？
But do you think that's wrong, or do you think he is a military strong man in a sort of recognizably modern mold?
不，我不这么认为。
No, don't think he is.
我的意思是，你说得对。
I mean, you're right.
当时人们常把他和1930年代的独裁者相提并论。
It was a common analogy with the dictator of the 1930s.
事实上，包括C在内的一些人就做过这样的类比。
And in fact, was one made by among other people, C.
V.
V.
韦奇伍德，这位研究这一时期的伟大历史学家，几十年后在克伦威尔协会的一次会议上公开收回了她的观点，承认自己完全错了。
Wedgewood, who was a great historian of this period, who recanted very publicly at a meeting of the Cromwell Association many decades later and said she was completely wrong.
这很难论证。
It's very difficult to argue.
首先，无论他有什么缺点，克伦威尔始终致力于寻求和解，并不断提及治愈与和解的理念，我认为这是真诚的。
One, because whatever his faults Cromwell does continuously seek a settlement and constantly refers to the idea of healing and settling, which I think is sincere.
他采取的方式并不总是真诚的，因此布莱尔·沃登对克伦威尔的精辟说法是：他擅长装作不知情。
The way he goes about it is not always sincere hence Blair Warden's wonderful phrase about Cromwell being practiced of not knowing.
因此，他确实有这种狡猾的一面——即使某些事情发生时他看似置身事外，但他的痕迹却无处不在。
So there's definitely this slippery side to him that can be absent when things happen despite his hand, his fingerprints have been all over them.
但即便他有这种意愿（而我认为他并没有），十七世纪的欧洲国家也根本不存在任何形式的军事独裁的手段。
But military dictator, even if the desire is there and I don't think it is there is not the means of anything like a military dictatorship in a seventeenth century European state.
我的意思是，这种条件根本不存在。
Mean it just isn't there.
通信手段不存在，技术也不具备，你需要的那种监控手段都没有。
The communications isn't there, the technologies there, kind of surveillance that you need.
这根本不可能。
It's just not possible.
所以，保罗，基本上，护国公政体是一场旷日持久的尝试，试图建立一个框架，使英格兰乃至整个不列颠——我是说，因为这是为整个大不列颠设计的，对吧？——首次能够有效运作，同时奠定坚实的基础。
So, Paul, basically, the protectorate is a kind of protracted exercise in trying to work out a framework that will enable England and indeed Britain, I mean, because it's for the whole of Great Britain, isn't it, for the first to time function, but also to put down solid foundations.
但从长远来看，正是这些基础的薄弱导致了英国共和国的覆灭，因为它们根本无法应对克伦威尔的去世。
And in the long run, that is what dooms the British Republic, is that the foundations are inadequate, basically, to cope with Cromwell's death.
因此，在克伦威尔去世后，我们这里有一个来自马修·巴彻的问题。
And so after Cromwell's death, we've got a question here from Matthew Butcher.
复辟是不可避免的吗？还是存在一条现实可行的路径，能让英格兰继续维持共和国？
Was the restoration inevitable, or is there a realistic path which keeps England as a republic?
嗯，那根本不是共和国。
Well, wasn't a republic.
我的意思是，这正是问题的一部分。
I mean, think that's part of the problem.
当克伦威尔说这不是共和国，而是一个护国公政体，是一种准君主制，类似于威尼斯式的政体，像詹姆斯·哈林顿这样的人写了《大洋国》作为给克伦威尔的建议之书。
When when Cromwell say it's not a republic, it's a protectorate, it's a quasi monarchy, it's something akin maybe to a kind of Venetian settlement and people like James Harrington who wrote Oceania as an advice book to Cromwell.
我们对古典共和主义和威尼斯共和主义着迷，弥尔顿也是如此，这种由选举产生的总督、选举产生的护国公的想法始终是一个选项。
We're obsessed by classical republicanism and Venetian republicanism, as was Milton and this idea of an elected doge, an elected protector, which was always an option.
但我担心，整个民众从未真正信服君主制之外的其他替代方案。
But I'm afraid that the entire population was never really convinced of an alternative to monarchy.
人们在议会中提及‘诺曼枷锁’和‘古老宪制’时，总是反复提到旧有的体制。
The old bottom, the ancient constitution is constantly referred to by people in parliament when they refer to the Norman yoke for example, and the ancient constitution.
但在大多数人，甚至包括许多议员的心目中，古老宪制就是君主、下议院和上议院的结合。
But to most people's minds, even many of those in parliament, the ancient constitution is the monarchy and the commons and the house of lords.
这才是它运作的方式。
That's the way it works.
我们只是经历了一个试图推行替代方案的空位期。
And we simply have this interregnum where an alternative is attempted.
但我觉得克伦威尔这里有一件有趣的事，那就是作为军事人物，他极其果断。
But I think this is interesting about Cromwell here, is that as a military figure he's incredibly decisive.
当你阅读他在纳斯比战役中的行动记录时，你会发现他在战场上是一个非常果断的人物。
When you read the records of his actions at Nasby for example, this is a decisive figure when you look at him in his battles.
但我觉得作为政治人物，他从未真正确定过该建立怎样的政体，他提出了各种解决方案，尤其是在护国公统治末期或他生命晚期，一些人非常关注如何确定政体。
But I think as a political figure he's never really sure what the settlement should be and he's offered various settlements, particularly by people who emerge towards the end of the protectorate or at least towards the end of his life who are very concerned to find the settlement.
他们知道这位人物已年过五十，饱受多种疾病困扰，既有艰苦的军旅生涯，又承受着这种新型政府带来的压力，他不可能永远在位，可能也活不了多久了。
They know that this is a man in his late fifties, he's racked by various illnesses, he's had a tough military life as well as the stresses of this new kind of government and he's not going to be around forever and probably not much longer.
因此，必须找到一个解决方案。
And so a settlement has to be found.
我认为当时向他提出的方案主要有四种。
And I think there are basically four alternatives that are presented to him.
第一种是他直接接受王位。
The first is that he just accepts kingship.
他成为奥利弗一世，王位变为世袭制。
He becomes Oliver the first and that becomes an hereditary position.
传给克伦威尔家族？
To the house of Cromwell?
传给克伦威尔家族。
To the house of Cromwell.
对。
Right.
但这也是他接受王权、成为奥利弗一世，但王位并非世袭的方案。
But it's also the one where he accepts kingship, Oliver the first, but that is not hereditary.
这是一种选举制的王权，类似于威尼斯。
It's an elective kingship rather like Venice.
护国公也是如此。
The same for the protector.
你可以接受护国公这个头衔并延续下去，使其成为世袭的，或者再次改为选举制。
You could take on this title of protector and continue it and make that hereditary or again elective.
事实上，当他于1658年3月9日，在那场大风暴中病危时，他说：和解方案是护国公一职将传给理查德。
And the truth is that at the end, when he's on his deathbed during that great storm on the 09/03/1658 and says the settlement is that it will be the position of Lord Protector will be passed on to Richard.
因此，本质上选择的是一个世袭性质的护国公。
So essentially the choice is a Lord Protector of an hereditary nature.
但这就是我们所处的境地。
But that's the position that we are.
因此，到克伦威尔去世时，继承安排仍未确定。
And so by the time Cromwell dies, the settlement, the succession has not been decided on.
在很多方面，这让人想起克伦威尔自己的偶像伊丽莎白一世时期，当时继承问题充满了不确定性。
In many ways that's quite reminiscent of what happened with Cromwell's own hero, Elizabeth the first, when you have a great deal of uncertainty as to how you settle succession.
因此，理查德短暂地担任了护国公。
And so Richard briefly serves as law protector.
他根本不适合这个位置。
He's he's not really on for it.
整个体系陷入全面崩溃，人们基本决定：如果我们还是要恢复君主制，不如把原来的斯图亚特家族请回来。
This kind of general meltdown, and people basically decided, well, if we're going have a monarchical system, we might as well get the original Stuart family back.
查理二世回来了。
And Charles II returns.
所以我们已经快速回顾了护国公时期的历史及其演变过程。
So we've had a very nifty gallop through history of the protectorate and building up to that.
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我认为有必要指出，关于理查德的问题，不在于他是否胜任。
I think it's worth saying, sorry, that in terms of Richard, it's not a question of whether Richard's up for it or not.
我感觉他 neither 能胜任，也不够长寿，否则会很好。
I I don't get the sense that he is or that he's incredibly long lived, so that would have been good.
活到了十八世纪。
Lives well into the eighteenth century.
但我认为根本问题还是要回到我之前说过的。
But I think the fundamental goes back to what I said earlier.
他没有军队的支持。
He hasn't got the support of the army.
对。
Right.
好的。
Okay.
这就是关键。
That's the point.
好的。
Okay.
好的。
Okay.
关于军队所扮演的角色这一主题，也许我们可以回头再讨论。
So and and on the theme of of the role that the army plays, that's something perhaps that we could come back to.
我们应该回头看看克伦威尔与激进派、平等派的关系，这也是一个关键主题，我们还必须探讨他在爱尔兰的角色。
We should come back to look at Cromwell's relationship with with the the radicals, the levelers, which is also kind of a key theme, and we must come and look at at his role in Ireland as well.
但我觉得现在，我们应该快速插播一个商业广告。
But I think for now, we should quickly go to a commercial break.
回来后，我们将探讨克伦威尔时期的争议。
And when we come back, we'll look at Cromwellian controversies.
欢迎回到《历史的其余部分》。
Welcome back to The Rest is History.
我们正在讨论17世纪的崇高事业——奥利弗·克伦威尔的一生与时代、英国共和国的命运。与我一同讨论的有：顶尖圆颅党人多米尼克·桑德布鲁克、花哨的保王党人汤姆·霍兰德，以及真正了解这一领域的克伦威尔专家保罗·莱。
We are debating the good old cause of the seventeenth century, the life and times of Oliver Cromwell, the fortunes of the British Republic with me, top round head, Dominic Sandbrook, foppish cavalier, Tom Holland, and actual Cromwellian expert who knows what he's talking about, Paul Lay.
所以，保罗，我可以先提一个问题吗？
So, Paul, can I kick off with a question?
我们刚才在讨论护国公时期以及1649年之前的整体情况，就在广告前。
We were just talking about the course of the protectorates and the sort of the whole story of 16 before the break.
所以，当像托尼·本这样的工党政治家，或者一般意义上的左翼人士说，这是共和主义错失的良机时，他们基本上是错的吗？
So when people like sort of Tony Ben, labor politician, or sort of generally sort of left wing people say this was a missed opportunity for republicanism, are they basically wrong?
你的上一次发言听起来像是认为，根本不可能出现一个真正意义上的、略带民主色彩的共和国。
You you I mean, from your last stuff, it sounded like you thought there was never really a possibility of a genuinely sort of vaguely democratic republic.
无论如何，最终都注定会回归君主制。
It was always gonna be a monarchical solution one way or the other.
我不认为这是不可避免的。
Well, I I don't think it's inevitable.
像托尼·本这样的人，还有许多历史学家，都是研究平等派的杰出学者。
The people like Tony Bennett, many historians, all very good historians, with the levellers.
事实上，在我这本书的平装版中，有一张我在伯福特墓地的照片。
Indeed, in my paperback version of the book, there is a picture of me in Burford Graveyard.
哦，是的。
Oh, yeah.
很熟悉。
Know it well.
伯福特墓地。
Burford Graveyard.
那里有那三名士兵。
With the with the three troopers there.
多米尼克，我插一句，再来个简短的介绍。
And, Dominic, just to interrupt, another of your quick resumes.
那些平等派是谁？
What what who are the levelers?
天哪。
Oh, golly.
好吧。
Okay.
所以，平等派是新模范军中的士兵。
So the levelers, they are soldiers in the new model army.
他们基本上被命令要去爱尔兰。
They've been basically told they've gotta go to Ireland.
但他们不想去。
They don't wanna go.
但同时，他们在这一运动中属于左翼。
But, also, they're kind of on the, as it were, the left wing of that movement.
他们更加民主。
They are much more democratic.
他们希望获得投票权。
They they want to sort of they wanna be get a vote.
他们想要一种更符合我们今天所理解的
They want a more what we would recognize as a more sort
民主共和体制的解决方案。
of democratic republican settlement.
克伦威尔就是布莱尔，而平等派就是科本派。
Cromwell is Blair, and the levelers are Corbinites.
我不认为我们可以这么讲。
I wouldn't let's go that far.
这些类比非常、非常困难。
These these analogies are very, very difficult.
平等派相信他们正在建造一座新耶路撒冷，这种语言自古以来，甚至在此之前，就一直是英国激进传统的一部分，托尼·本会援引这种传统，这确实是一个真实的传统。
The levelers believing something like they are building a new Jerusalem, and that's the kind of language that has been a part of an English radical tradition ever since, if not before, and Tony Ben would appeal to that, and it's a real tradition.
对本这样的人来说，克伦威尔是一个颇具争议的人物。
And Cromwell Cromwell to to people like Ben is a a kind of a problematic figure.
对吧？
Right?
因为
Because
对他来说，克伦威尔是个反派。
He's a he's a villain to Ben.
托尼·贝恩说，丹尼斯·希利是二十世纪七十年代的克伦威尔。
Tony Ben said that Dennis Healy was the Cromwell of the nineteen seventies.
是的。
Yes.
在很多方面，我确实这么认为。
And in many ways, I'd say indeed.
你喜欢的。
That you like.
你说丹尼斯·希利是更吸引人的人物，当然也是更有教养、更有效率的政治人物，不过这一点我们以后再讨论。
Say Dennis Healy is the far more attractive figure, but certainly the more cultivated figure, and certainly, actually, the more effective political figure, but that we we can we can debate that at some other time.
在1650年，也就是查理一世去世一年后，克伦威尔正准备渡海前往爱尔兰，军队驻扎在伯福德。
And and in 1650, so a year after Charles' first death, Cromwell is getting ready to cross to Ireland, and the army's camped at Burford.
当时基本上发生了一场兵变，对吧？
And there is a essentially, there's a kind of mutiny, isn't
这确实是一场兵变，不是吗？
It is a mutiny, isn't it?
他们是教会的人，对吧？
They're the church, aren't they?
他们全都是教会的人。
They're all in the church.
那克伦威尔做了什么？
And and what does Cromwell do?
他把其中三人带出去，在伯福德教堂的墙边枪决了。
Well, he takes three of them out, and he shoots them against the wall at Burford Church.
而且，是的，那里确实有一个纪念他们的纪念碑，对吧？
And and, yes, and there's a kind of memorial to them, isn't there?
确实有。
There is.
是的。
Yes.
这是一个有趣的纪念碑，因为我们常说克伦威尔是众望所归的人物，不仅托尼·本在这里找到了精神起源，就连丹尼尔·哈农这样的保守派脱欧派人士也将此地奉为自由英国人精神的发源地——当然，这句话我们最常与最著名的平等派人士诺曼联系在一起。
And it's an interesting memorial because we talk about Cromwell being all things to all men, because it's not just Tony Ben who finds birth at this place of pilgrimage, it's also a place where conservative Brexiteers such as Daniel Hannon eulogise as this birthplace of the freeborn English man, which of course is the phrase we associate with and most famous of all the levellers, Norman.
所以这很有趣，因为我们这么说，但我并不一定认为‘自由出生的英国人’这个概念是某种右翼或保守的主张。
So it's funny that we say that because I don't necessarily see this idea of freeborn English man being a kind of right or wing thing.
它可能对双方都有吸引力。
It can appeal to both sides.
我们又回到了火与玫瑰这个主题。
Again, we're back to that theme of the fire and the rose.
对。
Right.
所以在伯福德，叛乱最终被镇压了。
And so at Burford, essentially, the mutiny gets put down.
而平等派所反对的一件事，就是远征爱尔兰这个想法。
And one of the things that the levelers are objecting to is the very idea of crossing to Ireland.
因此，在远征爱尔兰的前夜，平等派散发了一份传单给新模范军。
So there's a leveler leaflet distributed to the New Model Army on the eve of the crossing to Ireland.
传单上写道：尤利乌斯·凯撒、亚历山大大帝、诺曼底公爵威廉，或者其他任何世界上的伟大征服者，难道不就是一群庞大而无法无天的强盗吗？——这其实是个非常激进的观点，不是吗？
It says, whether Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, William, Duke of Normandy, or any other the great conquerors of the world, were any other than so many great and lawless thieves, which is a kind of very I mean, that really is a radical idea, isn't it?
是的。
Right.
整个跨海去爱尔兰行动的根本理念，据推测对克伦威尔来说，是上帝希望他这么做，因为爱尔兰叛军是……
The the the the whole you know, the very the the foundational idea for the crossing to to to to Ireland is presumably for for Cromwell that god wants him to do it, that the the Irish rebels are no.
你你在那里
You're you're There
是这样。
is that.
人们总是问我这跟什么类似。
People always ask me what it's comparable to.
在克伦威尔之前、期间和之后，爱尔兰征服确实存在某些相似之处。
There are certain parallels of the conquest of Ireland that does take place under Cromwell and preceded Cromwell and happened long after Cromwell.
一些英国历史学家将它与纳粹暴行或二战东线发生的事情相提并论，这类关于种族灭绝的比较。
And comparisons have been drawn by some historians, British historians, comparing it to Nazi atrocities or what happened on the Eastern Front during the Second World War, these kind of comparisons there of genocide.
我认为它最相似的历史事件是诺曼征服，我觉得这也是平等派和批评者所认识到的。
What I think it's most like, most comparable to as a historic event, and I think this is what the levellers recognised and the critics of it recognised, is the Norman Conquest.
平等派及其周围的人谈论着诺曼人的枷锁。
The levellers and people around them talk about the Norman yoke.
他们谈论古老的宪制。
They talk about the ancient constitution.
我刚才引用的那段话提到了威廉。
That bit I just quoted has has has William mentions William.
我的意思是，这正是那个典故所指的内容。
I mean, that's that's what the allusion is to.
完全正确。
Absolutely.
最终发生的事情与诺曼征服极为相似，苏格兰也试图如此，但在爱尔兰，这种同化行为更加恶毒和激进，旨在将不列颠和爱尔兰诸岛彻底英格兰化。
And what happens, what turns out is wholly akin to the Norman conquest, whereby, this is attempted in Scotland as well, but far, far more perniciously and aggressively in Ireland is the Anglicization of these islands, of the islands of Britain and Ireland, to make them entirely English.
其背后的意识形态是，这一点可以追溯到哈里森等人，但我认为克伦威尔及其身边的人也持这种观点，即英格兰是一个被选中的民族。
And the ideology behind suspect is that, and this goes back to people like Harrison but I think it's something that Cromwell believes too and those around him, is that the English are an elect nation.
正如以色列是旧约中的被选民族，英格兰则是新约中的被选民族。
Just as Israel was the elect nation of the Old Testament, England is the elect nation of the New.
所以克伦威尔就像约书亚带领以色列人进入应许之地。
So so Cromwell is like Joshua leading the Israelites into the promised land.
我的意思是，我们讨论的正是这个。
I mean, it's kind of that that that's what we're talking about.
他只是提到了这些幻想。
And he simply refers to such illusions.
正如你所想象的，我们收到了大量关于克伦威尔及其在爱尔兰角色的问题。
So we we've had a host of questions, as you can imagine, about Cromwell, his role in Ireland.
我们有塞缪斯·麦克阿瑟。
So we've got Seamus McArthur.
作为一名北爱尔兰人，我们经常听到克伦威尔对爱尔兰人的暴行。
As a Northern Irishman, we often hear of Cromwell's brutality against the Irish.
这些有多少是真实的？
How much of this is true?
又有多少是被夸大了的？
How much is exaggerated?
这种敌意的根源是什么？
What was the source of this animosity?
这仅仅是针对天主教爱尔兰人的宗教冲突吗？
Was it a straightforward religious strife against Catholic Irish?
我们有卢克·亨内西，还有其他不少可选人选。
We've got Luke Hennessy with no shortage of other available candidates.
如果这些暴行被夸大了，为什么克伦威尔在爱尔兰人心中一直被置于如此特殊的地狱位置？
Why has a very special place in Irish hell been reserved for Cromwell for so long if the atrocities were exaggerated?
好吧。
Okay.
我的意思是，暴行被夸大了吗？
I mean, so were atrocities exaggerated?
如果确实存在暴行，克伦威尔在其中扮演了什么角色？
If there were atrocities, what was Cromwell's role in it?
爱尔兰人对克伦威尔所描绘的黑暗形象是否合理？
Is the black tones in which Ireland tends to paint Cromwell justified?
如果不是，那为什么他会被视为如此恶魔般的人物？
If not, why is he such a seen as such a kind of a diabolic figure?
这真是个相当深刻的问题。
This is quite a question.
我知道，不好意思，
I know, I'm sorry,
别有压力。
no pressure.
我对这个问题的看法是，我不知道你是否去过伊利的克伦威尔故居，这座房子建于八百年前，克伦威尔与之关联了二十年，虽然他甚至没有在那里居住过，但那确实是克伦威尔的宅邸。
What I tend to think about this is that I don't know whether you've been to Cromwell's house in Ely in which he spent, in the eight hundred years that the house has been built, he spent twenty years connected to it, not even living there, but it is Cromwell's house.
我认为这与克伦威尔在爱尔兰的情况有某种相似之处。
And I think there's a kind of analogy there with Cromwell in Ireland.
克伦威尔在爱尔兰只待了大约九个月。
Cromwell spent about nine months in Ireland.
他的行动是决定性的，有时我认为甚至是野蛮的，尤其是在他冷血对待天主教神父方面。
His actions were decisive, sometimes I would argue barbaric, particularly in his treatment of Catholic priests in cold blood.
但这些事实常常像克伦威尔本人一样被神话化了。
But the facts have often been mythologized as Cromwell has been.
我注意到，推特上没有一个人问过：为什么克伦威尔在英格兰受到庆祝，而在爱尔兰却不是？
And I don't think that there was one question from one person on Twitter I noticed who said, why is Cromwell celebrated in England but not in Ireland?
我觉得，他并没有在英格兰被庆祝。
And I thought, he's not celebrating England.
他在英格兰的争议性，几乎和在爱尔兰一样大。
He's almost as controversial character in England as he is in Ireland.
我的意思是，他仍然是一个揭开旧伤疤的人。
I mean, is a person that still opens up sores.
我的意思是，我们会谈到雕像，但远不止这些。
I mean, we'll talk about the statue, but there's much more than that.
他是一个极具分裂性的人物，我刚刚因为这本书的反响再次被提醒了这一点。
He's a deeply divisive character and I've been reminded of it just in the response to this book.
但如果我们看看爱尔兰发生的事情，我认为克伦威尔展现的冷酷无情，与内战结束后军队为复仇而采取的残暴手段密切相关。
But if we look at what happened in Ireland, it's I think the key to the ruthlessness that Conwell displays is something to do with this ruthlessness of the army that takes place after the second civil war when they're avenging blood as they see it.
爱尔兰的复仇性暴力指的是1641年的阿尔斯特叛乱，即爱尔兰叛乱，当时这一事件被严重夸大，但确实发生过。
And the avenging blood in Ireland is the Ulster rebellion is the Irish rebellion of sixteen forty one, which is exaggerated hugely at the time but is real.
它在英格兰被用作宣传工具，我认为这场叛乱向英格兰的新教徒——那些将在内战中对抗查理的人——传递了一个信号：那边的人已经超越了文明的界限。
And it takes on the kind of propaganda in England and I think the rebellion tells or signals to Protestants in England, the people who will fight Charles in the civil war, that the people over there are beyond the pale.
抱歉，刚才说错了，字面意思就是‘超越了界限’。
Sorry for the illusion there, literally beyond the pale.
因此，是时候彻底解决爱尔兰问题了。
And therefore, it is time to settle Ireland once and for all.
所以，保罗，是的。
So Paul Yep.
以欧洲大陆当时的战争标准来看，克伦威尔的行为是被视为过度的，还是说他只是遵循了当时公认的战争惯例？
By by the standards of war as practiced on the continent, is is Cromwell's behavior regarded as excessive even by that, or is he behaving according to the accepted conventions of war?
三十年战争期间，人们的行为不是很恶劣吗？
People behaved pretty badly in the thirty years war, didn't they?
当然。
Oh, absolutely.
是的
Yeah.
卫护者总是
Which is Defenders always
他们会说，你知道，他当时是按照当时的常规标准行事的。
say, well, you know, he was he was behaving according to the conventional standards.
我的意思是，他真是这样吗？
I mean, was he?
好吧，我们来看看，要真正回答这个问题，只能从发生的事情入手。
Well, let's have a look at, I mean, the only way you can really begin to answer this is looking at what happens.
詹姆斯·巴特勒，即奥蒙德伯爵，成功地在爱尔兰组建了一个爱尔兰保王派联盟。
James Butler, who's the Earl of Ormond, has brilliantly put together an Irish and Royalist coalition in Ireland.
其目标是将爱尔兰作为基地，进攻英格兰，恢复保王势力。
The aim being to secure Ireland as a base to attack England to bring Royalism back.
这就是他所面对的简单逻辑。
That's that's the kind of simple equation that he's dealing with.
到1649年3月，他已经制定出一套战略，这距离国王被处决才仅仅两个月左右。
By about he's got a strategy together by March 1649, so this is only two months after the king's been executed, if that.
他已拟定出作战计划，并且拥有足以攻占都柏林的可观兵力。
He's got a campaign strategy together and appears to have the significant numbers to be able to take Dublin.
事实上，到六月时，他的部队已经推进到距离都柏林仅两英里的地方。
And in fact by the June he's about two miles from Dublin.
我认为，决定性的转折点是迈克尔·琼斯在拉思莫恩对这支保皇派爱尔兰军队的胜利，这在我看来是整个战役中的关键胜利。
Now the decisive turning point here, I think, is that the defeat by Michael Jones at wrath minds of this royalist Irish force, that seems to me to be the decisive victory in this whole campaign.
这场胜利发生在8月2日，一方面挫败了奥蒙德的攻势，另一方面也让新模范军——一万两千名身经百战、思想坚定且经验丰富的英国士兵——进入都柏林，此外他们还获得了议会拨付的十万英镑现金。
That's the August 2 because it allows it stalks Ormond's campaign for one but it allows the new model army, 12,000 battle hardened, theologically and ideologically primed and experienced British soldiers into Dublin, plus they have a £100,000 in cash that's given them by parliament.
这是一支强大的力量。
So this is a serious force.
但这支军队进入爱尔兰时，还带着联邦政府明确的指令：任何被发现劫掠的士兵都将被处以绞刑。
But it's also a force that goes into Ireland with Commonwealth's firm instructions that any soldiers caught looting will be hanged.
这支军队进入爱尔兰时，具备着一种核心的纪律性。
It goes in with a kind of core of discipline.
德罗赫达是总是被提及的地方。
And Drogheda is the place that's always mentioned.
这是一个双方反复争夺的重要城镇，是通往阿尔斯特的门户。
This is a significant town being fought over again and again by both sides, the gateway to Ulster.
奥蒙德任命亚瑟·阿斯顿为该地的总督。
Ormond appoints Arthur Aston as the governor of this place.
当克伦威尔率军前来围攻时，他提供了投降的途径。
And when Cromwell emerges with his army to be siege it, he's offered the means to surrender.
这在当时是正常的程序。
Now this is the normal process at this time.
这在三十年战争中屡见不鲜。
It's seen endlessly in the Thirty Years' War.
在其他地方也很常见。
It's quite common elsewhere.
如果你给守军投降的机会，他们就会被放行。
If you offer the defenders the opportunity to surrender, they will be let go.
阿斯顿拒绝投降，他所率领的两千五百名守军——无论具体人数是多少——最终被克伦威尔的部队攻陷。
Aston does not surrender and his two and a half thousand men or whatever it is that are defending this, And in the end it falls to Cromwell's troops.
那里确实发生了严重的暴行。
Now there are real atrocities there.
圣彼得教堂被焚毁尤其重要，有许多人被活活烧死。
The burning of St Peter's Church is particularly important, there are people burned alive there.
而对天主教神父的有组织处决——据我所知，所有证据都指向克伦威尔下令——显然是不可接受的战争罪行。
And the sanctioned execution of Catholic priests, which is sanctioned, I believe all the evidence points by Cromwell, is plainly a war crime unacceptable.
虽然在这样的事件中平民难免受到牵连，但并没有确凿证据表明发生了针对平民的大规模屠杀。
There's no evidence that there was a real slaughter of civilians although of course in such an event civilians may well be caught up in this and there's no solid evidence of a massacre of civilians.
事情就是如此。
That's where we are.
但其中也存在种族清洗的成分，因为有人曾说过，一旦这个地方被清理干净、所有人都离开后，正直的人就应该来这里。
But there is also an element of ethnic cleansing there because the statement is said, you know, once this place is cleared and everyone's left, honest people should come here, I.
E。
E.
不是天主教的爱尔兰人，而应该留给定居者，新教徒，英格兰定居者。
Not the Catholic Irish but it should be left to settlers, Protestants, English settlers.
所以我们看到士兵在那里阵亡，无论我们现在如何看待，这都是战争、围城战的一部分，当时就是这样做的。
So we see soldiers killed there, that's whatever we think of it now, that's part of the deal of war, siege warfare, it was done then.
但神父和修士被冷血处决，绝对不行。
But priests and friars being executed in cold blood, absolutely not.
即使在当时，这也被视为如此。
And it was perceived as such even then.
然后他向南进军，因为斯特拉多是通往阿尔斯特的门户，韦克斯福德则是伦斯特和芒斯特的门户。
He then goes south because as Strahdoo was the gateway to Ulster, Wexford is kind of gateway to Leinster and Munster.
他于十月抵达那里，港口仍然开放，但情况一开始就很糟糕，因为他的部队到达马什兰后，许多人患上了痢疾。
He arrives there in October, the port's still open and in fact it starts badly because his forces come to Marshland and a lot of people get dysentery.
韦克斯福德的总督大卫·辛纳特再次被要求投降，事实上，许多市民和平民已经离开。
And David Synert, who is the of Wexford governor, he again is asked to surrender and in fact many of the townspeople, civilians actually leave.
大约十天后，英军开始炮击，辛纳特实际上请求停战以商谈条件，而他本人也有自己的小算盘。
An English bombardment begins about ten days later and Sinners actually asks for a parley to discuss terms and he's got his own little agenda there.
但城堡的指挥官——据我所知，他与詹姆斯·斯塔福德合作——投降了，英军进入城镇，中央马库斯广场一带发生了一些抵抗。
But the commander of the castle, who works with James Stafford as far as I'm aware, surrenders and English troops enter and there is some resistance in the town of Central Marcus Square.
事实上，正是在这里，克伦威尔失去了对部队的控制。
In fact this is where Cromwell loses control of his troops.
我们再次看到大约两千人死亡，他的估算至今仍在被不断审视。
Again we see something like 2,000 dead, mean his estimates are still being looked at all the time.
神父再次被杀，完全没有任何正当理由。
Priest again, no justification whatsoever.
但大约九天后，我认为是在十月，另一处重要定居点纽罗斯的指挥官卢卡斯·塔夫投降了，条件相当宽厚，守军被允许携带个人武器撤离——不包括大炮和火炮这类重型装备，但可以带走自己的火枪和其他随身武器。
But just about nine days later I think it's October in New Ross, which is another important settlement, Lucas Taff, who's the governor commander there, surrenders on pretty generous terms and the garrison is actually allowed to depart with its individual weapons not the cannon, artillery, that kind of stuff, but it can take its own muskets, whatever it has.
因此，这里可以看出明显的差异。
And so you see a real difference there.
现在你可以整天讨论克伦威尔这样做是否是为了震慑其他人，比如在多拉多和韦克斯福德的暴行是否奏效？
Now you can talk all day is Cromwell doing this to encourage others not to has it worked, in other words, the violence at Dorado and Wexford?
在纽罗斯，这一策略奏效了吗？
Has it worked at New Ross?
这个信息是否已经传达出去了？让人们知道这就是将会发生的命运？
Has this message been sent out that this happens, that this is the fate that will happen?
谁知道呢？
Who knows?
我建议的是，我认为关于整个战役和后续安置工作，目前仍有许多研究在进行，其中有一本由马丁·本内特等人主编的优秀新书，名为《新视角》，这是目前英爱两国历史学者中最新、最前沿的学术成果。
What I would recommend, and I think there is still a great deal of work going on to this entire campaign and the settlement too, is there's a very good new book edited by among others, Martin Bennett, called An New Perspectives, which is just about as up to date as the scholarship goes with both British and Irish historians.
特别是帕特里克·莱纳汉，在研究相关人数方面做出了非常有价值的工作，因为这些数字一直存在争议。
Patrick Lenaghern in particular has done very valuable work looking at the numbers there because the numbers are always contested.
所以，你知道，这很重要，但是
And and so, you know, that's important, but the
那么，结论是什么？
point And of so so so what is the conclusion?
我的意思是，基本的问题是，克伦威尔的行为是否在当时的时代标准下，或在爱尔兰历史中其他英国军事行动的对比下，显得过于极端，从而解释了他在爱尔兰为何拥有如此恶魔般的声誉？
I mean, basically, the question is, is there something excessive that Cromwell is doing both by the standards of the age and by the standards of other English campaigns over the course of Irish history that explains why he has this demonic status in Ireland?
还是说，有什么与之无关的因素，解释了克伦威尔身后声誉的形成？
Or is there is there something extraneous to that that explains Cromwell's posthumous reputation?
嗯，我觉得两者都有。
Well, think it's a bit of both.
我的意思是，克伦威尔是这一过程的一部分，而且是相当重要的一部分。
I mean, Cromwell is part of a process, a significant part of a process.
但如果你看看1580年代，看看1593年到1603年伊丽莎白时期和詹姆斯时期期间的九年战争，它们都
But if you look at the 1580s, if you look at the Nine Years' War from 1593 to sixteen o three during the Elizabethan settlement and the Jacobean settlements, they are
它们不是很短暂吗？
Briefly aren't they?
是的，它们远比这血腥残酷。
Yeah, they're far bloody awful.
它们比这要糟糕得多。
They are far, far worse than this.
而且即使克伦威尔时期的政策更恶劣，也不一定是克伦威尔本人的作为。
And also even if the Cromwellian settlement is worse, it's not necessarily Cromwell's work.
克伦威尔只在那里待了相对较短的时间。
Cromwell is only there for a relatively brief time.
所以，当然可以在这里 pinpoint blame（ pinpoint blame 指责）。
So by all means, pinpoint blame in there.
我的意思是，我们可以看到对神父和修士的对待方式。
I mean, we can see that with the treatment of the priests and the friars.
这简直令人发指。
It's absolutely appalling.
你可以在德雷丹的圣彼得尖塔看到这种行为。
You can see that kind of action in St Peter's Steeple in Drahdan.
所有这些都能看得到。
Can see all of that.
但他属于一个连续的过程，我认为就像他在英格兰被看作一个恐怖象征一样——这就是当斯塔比利斯在场时会发生的事。
But he's part of a continuum, and I think rather as he is in England, this kind of bogeyman, This is what happens if Stabilis is there.
他已经成为所有其他事情的替罪羊，这就是我使用房屋类比的原因。
He's become a cipher for all the other things, and it's why I use the analogy of the house.
他在那所房子里住了二十年，但这所房子有八百年的历史，而他在爱尔兰只待了很短一段时间，尽管显然他也指导了爱尔兰的安置方式，但我们谈论的是八百年的历史。
He's in the house twenty years, but this house has an eight hundred year history and he's there in Ireland for a brief period of time, although obviously he also instructs the way Ireland is settled there too, but we're talking about an eight hundred year history here.
我们干脆直接怪伊丽莎白一世好了，你知道的，
We might as well just blame Elizabeth the first, you know,
有机会把故事往前推一点，谈谈克伦威尔的遗产，因为显然在十九世纪，克伦威尔成了一个极具争议且引人注目的人物。
chance to to take the story forward a bit and to talk about Cromwell's memory because, obviously, in the nineteenth century, Cromwell becomes this incredibly controversial and interesting figure.
维多利亚时代的人们接纳了他，比如这档节目的朋友、历史老师斯蒂芬·克拉克，他就曾就汉默·索恩克罗夫特1899年创作的克伦威尔雕像提出过问题。
The Victorians take him up, and there's the I mean, Stephen Clark, who's a friend of the show, history teacher himself, he's asked questions about Hammer Thorncroft's 1899 statue of Cromwell.
当然，关于是否应在议会大厦为克伦威尔立雕像，曾引发巨大争议。
Now, of course, there was a huge controversy about whether there should be a statue of Cromwell at the houses of parliament.
我认为自由党首相罗斯伯里勋爵最终出资赞助了这座雕像。
I think Lord Rosebery, the liberal prime minister, ended up paying for it.
保守党坚决反对。
The Tories were dead against.
爱尔兰人也强烈反对，这充分说明了克伦威尔在十九世纪末的声誉如何。
The Irish were dead against, which shows what a what a reputation Cromwell had at the end of the nineteenth century.
即使到现在，这仍然有点争议。
And even now, it's a it's a little bit controversial.
所以你觉得，某种程度上，克伦威尔这个英雄形象——我们所熟知的克伦威尔，其实是维多利亚时代的一种建构吗？
So do you think, to some extent, Cromwell is this Victor you know, our Cromwell that we have a sense of is a kind of Victorian invention?
因为当然了，维多利亚时代的人重新塑造了他，把他当作某种模板，用来投射他们自己的政治争议，不是吗？
Because, of course, the Victorians remade him in their own image and used him as a sort of, I don't know, as a template for their own political controversies, didn't they?
我想这一切其实始于卡莱尔，那种所谓‘伟人’、重要人物的理念。
Well, I suppose it all starts with Carlisle, really, and the idea of this kind of, you know, great man, the significant figure.
但你说得完全对。
But you're you're absolutely right.
他确实被自由派所接纳，但那是自由党派。
He he is embraced by liberals, but it's the liberal parter.
我的意思是，我不是用我们现在所理解的‘自由派’这个词。
Mean, I don't mind liberals in the way that we use it now.
我指的是像罗斯伯里勋爵那样的十九世纪自由派，他确实出资建造了这座雕像，而当时这引发了巨大争议。
I'm talking about nineteenth century liberals like Lord Rosebery who did indeed pay for the statute when it was deeply controversial at the time.
那正是关于自治权争论的时代。
This is the time of debates about home rule.
当时，爱尔兰在英国政治中处于绝对核心地位，因此这极具争议性。
Ireland is absolutely to the fore of British politics at this time and so this is deeply controversial.
但你看，回到左翼这边，你会发现像艾萨克·富特这样的人——迈克尔·富特的祖父——拥抱了克伦威尔这个形象，他是自由派异议传统的一部分，而克伦威尔被视为这一传统的奠基人。
But you see, I mean going back to the left here, you see the embrace of this figure Cromwell by people like Isaac Foote, Michael Foote's grandfather, part of this liberal dissenting tradition of which Cromwell is seen as the founding father of.
但在这里，你所看到的克伦威尔是高度世俗化的。
But it's a deeply secularised Cromwell that you have here.
我认为像艾萨克·富特这样的人，如果真正了解他们所面对的现实，一定会对如今克伦威尔所代表的那些理念感到震惊。
I think people like Isaac Forter, they really looked at what they were dealing with, would have been absolutely horrified by the kind of ideals that Cromwell has.
但也许这恰恰说明了克伦威尔这个人物有多么争议、多么重要——我的意思是，我确信你也注意到了，在英国脱欧辩论期间，克伦威尔的名字突然无处不在，被那些支持议会至上的各方反复引用，爱尔兰方面对脱欧的评论中也不断提及他。
But it's it's it's maybe that I mean, it's the measure of of of just how controversial and significant a figure Cromwell is that I I mean, I thought I was I'm sure you were struck in the same way that over the Brexit course of the Brexit debate, suddenly Cromwell's name was everywhere again, and it it was being invoked by people who were siding with the primacy of parliament and in all kinds of ways and endlessly being mentioned in in, Irish commentary on Brexit as well.
这就好像……
And it's as though
另外，汤姆，人们还引用他，比如他说过：‘奉上帝之名，滚出去’之类的话。
Also, people used him, Tom, to say he said, you know, kind of when he goes into parliament says, in the name of god, go and all that.
在特蕾莎·梅执政时期的议会辩论中，人们不也是这么说的吗？
Bressetiers were saying that about parliament under Theresa May, weren't they?
每当英国民主面临压力时，克伦威尔的记忆就会浮现出来。
And it's kind of like when whenever maybe British democracy comes under strain, Cromwell, the memory of Cromwell bubbles up.
每当英国（尤其是英格兰）与爱尔兰的关系紧张时，他又会被人们记起。
Whenever relations between Britain, particularly England and Ireland come under strain, again, he is remembered.
或许他的命运就是成为
And perhaps that's his fate to be a
我认为这就是他的命运。
I think it is his fate.
我的意思是，他象征着爱尔兰与英国之间的分裂。
I mean, that's what he symbolizes is this break between Ireland and Britain.
我的意思是，这是他所代表的意义之一。
I mean, that's one of the things he signifies.
但关于他的一切都笼罩在神话、混淆和常常的错误之中。
But everything about him is surrounded by myth, obfuscation, and often error.
我的意思是，多米尼克刚刚提到，或许是他最著名的一句话：奉上帝之名，去吧。
I mean, Dominic's just mentioned, you know, probably the most famous words he ever mentioned in the name of God go.
他其实从未说过那些话。
He never actually said them.
我的意思是，根据约翰·莫里尔的新文集，这些话似乎源自1767年左右伪造的演讲版本。
I mean, you know, I mean, according to John Morrill's new collection, they seem to derive from a forged version of speeches that's 1767 or something.
保罗，你是不是仍然坚持说他根本没说过‘疣’这个词？
Paul, may still be saying he never said warts at all?
你知道，我们自以为了解克伦威尔的方方面面，但实际上并不了解，这再次说明，无论在爱尔兰海的哪一边，人们对克伦威尔都存在着可怕的无知。
You know, there is so much about which we believe we know about Cromwell but which we don't know and this comes back to you know there's a terrible ignorance about Cromwell, for better or worse, on both sides of the Irish Sea.
我的意思是，我们都熟悉切斯特顿那句老话，讲的是英国和爱尔兰历史的差异——爱尔兰人永远忘不掉，而英国人却永远记不住，尤其是在谈论爱尔兰历史时。
I mean we all know Chesterton's old phrase about the difference between British and Irish history, you know, the Irish can never forget it and the English can never remember it when we're talking about Irish history.
但我认为，这一在英国、英爱、欧洲乃至全球历史上都至关重要的节点，对绝大多数英国人，甚至可能对爱尔兰人而言，仍是一片空白，如果我们想真正理解我们是谁，这一点必须得到修正。
But I think this is this absolutely crucial point in British, British and Irish, European, indeed even global history, is one that's still pretty much a blank slate so far as the vast majority of British people go, perhaps even Irish people, And it is something that I think really needs to be amended if we're to understand who we are.
保罗，你通常不喜欢现代类比，但我在你的书中读到一个极好的现代类比，我非常赞同——在你那本巨著的结尾，你将克伦威尔和撒切尔夫人相提并论，两人都是东盎格利亚人、非国教徒，需要决断时都非常果断，但也极具争议性。
Paul, you often don't like modern parallels, and yet I read in your book an excellent modern parallel, which I heartily approve of, where at the end of your great book, you say you draw a parallel between Cromwell and Margaret Thatcher, both East Anglians, nonconformists, you know, very decisive when they needed to be, very divisive.
是的。
Yeah.
人们认为他严肃刻板，但实际上非常热爱生活。
Thought of as as austere, but but actually incredibly fun loving.
你能不能跟我们谈谈玛格丽特·撒切尔这个类比？因为我觉得大多数听众会觉得这非常惊人。
Do you think that so talk to us about the Margaret Thatcher analogy because I think that's one that most listeners will find extraordinary.
我这么做的时候其实有点调皮。
Well, I was being quite mischievous when I did this.
当然，我确实不喜欢过于紧密地做现代类比，但我实在无法忽略玛格丽特·撒切尔这个例子，因为正如你所说，她是一位来自东盎格利亚的非国教徒、反犹主义者。
Obviously, I it is absolutely true that I don't like to draw modern parallels too closely, but I couldn't miss the Margaret Thatcher one because, you know, as you say, there's this East Anglian nonconformist Philo Semite.
我们忘记了克伦威尔在重新安置犹太人回到英格兰中的作用。
We forget Cromwell's role in resettling Jews in England again.
他这么做并不是出于人道主义目的，而是希望犹太人能在最完美的基督教政体中皈依新教和基督教。
Not that he did this for humanitarian purposes, he did it so that the Jews would convert to Protestantism and Christianity in the most perfect of all Christian polities.
但在战争中他确实果断，对爱尔兰的问题也是如此。
But decisive in war certainly, problem with the Irish, that's certainly there as well.
还有很多类似的相似之处。
There are all kinds of parallels.
我当时说得有点像物理学家，但我认为最有趣的相似之处是我们之前谈到的对苏格兰和爱尔兰的英语化，这正是他的计划。
I was being quite physicist, but I think the most interesting parallel of all, and we talked earlier about the anglicisation both of Scotland and Ireland that was the plan of this.
但我觉得最终，就连英国人也让克伦威尔失望了。
But I think in the end even the English people disappointed Cromwell.
他形容他们，我特别喜欢这个克伦威尔式的说法：受过割礼却咆哮不已。
He described them, and I love this Cromwellian phrase, as under circumcision but roar.
换句话说，他们正走在一条通往神圣与完美的道路上，但尚未抵达，事实上还相距甚远。
In other words, they were on a kind of path to a holiness, a perfection, but they weren't there yet and indeed they were a long way off.
我认为撒切尔夫人身上也有类似的特质。
And I think there was that kind of element with Thatcher.
有一位很棒的教授，我记不清是谁了，不确定是弗农·博格丹还是其他人，他说玛格丽特·撒切尔想按照她父亲——清教徒议员罗伯茨的形象来塑造一个国家，结果却创造出了一个像她儿子那样的国家。
There's a wonderful professor I can't remember who did it, I don't know whether it was Vernon Bogden or someone else who said that Margaret Thatcher wanted to create a country in the image of her father, the Puritan Alderman Roberts, and created one in the image of her son.
这和克伦威尔之间有一种相似之处，因为最终谁继承了他的事业？
And there's a kind of parallel with Cromwell because who ultimately follows him?
短暂一段时间是他的儿子，但最终却是查理二世。
For a brief while it's his son, but in the end it's Charles II.
而且，他们根本无法真正理解英格兰人民的意愿。
And there's this kind of inability to really read the desires of the English people.
所以，英格兰人民辜负了克伦威尔，辜负了上帝，但最糟糕的是，他们辜负了自己。
So the English people, they'd let down Cromwell, they'd let down God, but worst of all, they'd let down themselves.
不如说，他们辜负了我，也辜负了多米尼克。
It's better to say they let down me, and they let down Dominic.
说到这个，
On that note,
我们接下来要向埃迪尤告别，并感谢保罗。
we are going to, to to bid you, Edieu, to thank Paul.
他感慨道，人们并不了解克伦威尔，或者他们对他的了解大多是神话化的。
He was lamenting, the fact that people don't know much about Cromwell or what they know about him is is largely mythic.
为了解决这个问题，我推荐购买他那本精彩的作品《失落的天命：克伦威尔护国政体的兴衰》。
To get around that problem, I do recommend buying his wonderful book, Providence Lost, the rise and fall of Cromwell's Protectorate.
非常感谢。
Thanks ever so much.
我们下周见。
We will see you next week.
再见。
Bye bye.
再见。
Bye bye.
感谢收听《历史的余音》。
Thanks for listening to the rest is history.
如需获取附加剧集、提前收听、无广告收听以及加入我们的聊天社区，请前往 restishistorypod.com 注册。
For bonus episodes, early access, ad free listening, and access to our chat community, please sign up at restishistorypod.com.
网址是 restishistorypod.com。
That's restishistorypod.com.
嗨，大家好。
Hi, guys.
我是凯西·凯和安托尼·斯卡拉穆奇，来自《历史的余音：美国版》。
It's Kathy Kay and Antonee Scaramucci here from the rest is politics US.
我们刚刚录制了一个四部分系列节目，全面探讨唐纳德·特朗普如何成为今天我们所熟知的全球性人物。
We have just recorded a four part series that's all about Donald Trump becoming the global phenomenon we know him as today.
你知道吗，卡蒂，我从2005年就开始认识唐纳德·特朗普了。
You know, Catti, I knew Donald Trump since 2005.
所以在这个系列中，我们将倒回时间，深入挖掘那些塑造了他的关键人物、事件和丑闻。
So in this series, we rewind the clock right back and dig into the people, the events, and the scandals that built him.
是的。
Yeah.
我们将带你们从他在军校的岁月说起，了解他在那里学到了什么，以及他如何出人意料地在那里茁壮成长，再到他父亲与三K党的关联、他在纽约作为商业巨头的时期，以及这些经历如何深刻塑造了他的世界观和商业方式。
We're gonna take you from his days in military school, what he learned there, how he actually weirdly thrived there, to his father's ties to the Ku Klux Klan, his days as a business mogul in New York, and how that really shaped his worldview and his way of doing business.
我们还将探索一些你可能从未听过的特朗普故事的片段。
And we're gonna explore parts of the Trump story that you might never have even heard of.
别忘了，卡蒂，那个阴险狡诈的骗子罗伊·科恩。
Not to mention, Caddie, the nefarious trickster, Roy Cohn.
我的罗伊·科恩在哪？
Where's my Roy Cohn?
我听过他这么说很多次了。
I heard him say that so many time.
我的意思是，卡迪，我只在那里待了十一天。
I mean, I was only there for eleven days, Caddie.
我的罗伊·科恩在哪？
Where's my Roy Cohn?
但让我告诉你一件事。
But let me tell you something.
如果你想了解罗伊·科恩是谁，一定要收听这个系列。
If you wanna know who Roy Cohn was, you're gonna tune into this series.
鉴于每天都有那么多关于特朗普世界的头条新闻，我们觉得现在正是试图理解造就唐纳德·特朗普的美国的最重要时刻。
With all the headlines that come out of Trump World every single day, we just felt there'd never really been a more important time to try to understand the America that created Donald Trump.
要收听《成为特朗普》第一集，请前往你常用的播客平台搜索《Rest is Politics US》。
To listen to episode one of becoming Trump, head over to the rest is politics US wherever you get your podcast.
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