56. 尼禄

我的意思是，比那还要多。

I mean than that.

而且你有证据，比如钱币和考古发现。

And you've the evidence you've got the evidence of of of coins and of archaeology.

是的。

Yeah.

但先把钱币放一边。

But put the coins on one side.

我的意思是，钱币确实能提供一些信息。

I mean, the points give you something.

但有些故事，比如阿格里皮娜在游艇上死亡，你知道的，游艇解体，或者他与宦官的丑闻，又或者踢死妻子之类的那些广为人知的暴行，往往都只基于寥寥几份史料，对吧？

But some of the stories, for example, the death of Agrippina in the yacht, you know, the the yacht falling apart or his carry on with eunuchs or kicking his wife to death or the other sort of canonical things that we know about him, they are often based on on a couple of sources, aren't they Yeah.

归根结底。

At heart.

当你在撰写这些内容时，你到底能走多远？

And how far do you, when you're writing this?

因为你显然写过关于尼禄的内容。

Because you've obviously written about Nero.

我的意思是，你热爱尼禄，并以极大的热情和活力撰写了相关作品。

I mean, you love Nero, and you've written about it with such sort of enthusiasm and and and Brio.

但当你写作时，你有没有想过：‘嗯，这很可能全是胡扯，但我还是要讲这个故事？’

But how much when you're writing it do you think to yourself, well, yeah, this could well be bollocks, but I'm gonna write but I'm gonna tell the story anyway?

这一直是一个持续的挑战。

Well, I it's it's a constant challenge.

故事越荒诞，这种挑战就越明显。

And the more grotesque the story is, the more the challenge is there.

但我认为，关于尼禄，存在一些外部证据表明，他某种程度上在为自己编写剧本、搭建舞台，这意味着许多关于他的负面故事，其实是对他自身行为的扭曲反映。

But I think that that with Nero, there is extraneous evidence that, in a sense, Nero is is kind of writing scripts for himself and creating stage sets for himself that, mean that, in a sense, a lot of the kind of more hostile stories that are told about him are distorted refractions of of things that he himself was trying to do.

因此，你必须全面审视所有证据，这不仅限于文本证据，还要努力判断：这些故事究竟是纯粹的幻想，还是真实发生的，他是否真的疯了？

So, essentially, what you have to do is to is to look at the entire mass of the evidence, and that goes beyond the the simply textual evidence, and essentially try and work out, well, you know, are these stories simply fantasy, or are they true, and was he mad?

抑或它们只是某种可能源自尼禄本人行为的折射？

Or are they refractions of something that might conceivably come from Nero himself?

如果我们能理解他究竟在做什么，或许就能明白他究竟是怎样的人。

And if we can understand what it is that he's doing, perhaps we can then get a sense of what he's all about.

他疯了吗，

And was he mad,

汤姆？

Tom?

不。

No.

他没有疯。

He's not mad.

他是个极具创造力和天赋的人。

He's he's a man of of ferocious creative ability and talent.

你知道吗，他让我想起了小丑。

You know, he reminds me of he reminds me of the Joker.

小丑，是的。

The Joker in the Yeah.

希斯·莱杰版本。

Heath Ledger iteration.

嗯，当我翻译苏埃托尼乌斯的生平时，他描述了尼禄年轻时如何乔装成奴隶，溜到街上，殴打路人，没错。

Well well, I kind of I when I was translating the life of Suetonius, he describes how Nero as a young man would go out into the streets, and he'd kind of disguise himself as a slave and and just go out and and and kind of beat people up and Right.

而且，你知道，乐在其中。

And and and, you know, enjoy it.

我确实有过这样的想象，或许可以把塞内加塑造成一个蝙蝠侠式的人物。

And I did kind of have this image of perhaps of of casting Seneca as a Batman figure.

对。

Right.

在罗马的街道上游荡，惩恶扬善。

Roaming the streets of Rome, fighting.

但没错，我认为当代文化中最接近尼禄所作所为的类比，就是小丑。

But, yes, I think I think that the Joker would be the closest analogy in contemporary culture to kind of what Nero is doing.

你知道，他确实邪恶、阴险，但同时也极具魅力和创造力。

You know, he he he is he is malevolent, I I think, and and sinister, but also incredibly charismatic and incredibly creative.

克里斯托弗·贝恩斯在《我，克劳狄乌斯》中对他的演绎，还有海尼肯广告里的版本，你记得吗？

And the thing that Christopher Begins portrayal of him in I, Claudius, and indeed in the Heineken advert, you don't know if you remember.

我不记得了。

I don't

我记得。

remember.

我后来查了一下。

I kinda looked that up.

克里斯托弗·贝恩斯饰演的尼禄，因为他判处了太多角斗士死刑，以至于拇指都动不了了。

It's it's really Christopher Begins as Nero is he he he's sentenced so many gladiators to death that he can't move his thumb.

于是他们端来一杯葡萄酒，他喝完之后，就能重新开始判处角斗士死刑了。

So they bring on a glass of wine, and he drinks it, and, then he he's able to start sentencing gladiators to death again.

但还有彼得·乌斯蒂诺夫在《暴君焚城录》里的版本，他是个胖乎乎的喜剧角色，简直就像一个杀人版的比利·班特。

But also with Peter Usenov in in Quo Vadis, that that he's this kind of fat comic he's well, he's kind of murderous Billy Bunter

对，没错。

to Right.

你知道，你的

You know, your

真爱。

great love.

这不对，我认为。

That's untrue, I think.

我认为尼禄并不是一个荒谬的人物。

I think Nero is not a kind of ridiculous figure.

而且我认为，关于他的那些传言——说他唱歌很差、表演很差、驾车很差——这些也不真实。

And I think also that the the stories that get told about him, that he he was a terrible singer, that he was a terrible actor, that he was a terrible charioteer, these are not true either.

他显然在这些方面都非常出色，因为要做到这些都需要基本的天赋。

He was clearly very proficient at all of them, because to do all of them required an absolute kind of baseline of talent.

所以类比来说，想象一下今天的国家领导人主演一部获得奥斯卡奖的好莱坞电影，在格拉斯顿伯里音乐节担任压轴演出

And so the parallel would be, imagine a world leader today starring in an Oscar winning Hollywood film, headlining at Glastonbury

对。

Right.

参加一级方程式比赛。

Competing in Formula one.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，即使是最残酷的专制者，要想做到这一点，也必须具备一定的基本才能才能成功。

You you know, eve even the most kind of brutal autocrat, to do that, you'd have to have a certain baseline of talent to get away with it.

因为我们知道，尽管有些人对此嗤之以鼻，但也有很多人对尼禄所做的事情深感钦佩。

Because we know that although there were people who did kind of sneer at this, there were also people who regarded Nero with great admiration for what he had done.

当尼禄去世后，就像猫王去世后一样，各地冒出了许多模仿者，这本身就表明他拥有极大的人气。

And when Nero dies and kind of, you know, Elvis style impersonators pop up all over the place after he's dead, which in itself is an indication that he you know, there's kind of huge degree of popularity.

让他们与众不同的是，他们拥有非凡的音乐才能。

What marks them out is that they have immense musical proficiency.

所以我认为，他是一位非常、非常有才华的人。

So he's a he's he's, I think, a very, very talented, talented man.

是的。

And Yeah.

这正是他令人恐惧的地方。

That's kind of what makes him frightening.

太棒了。

Brilliant.

好吧，我们先休息一下，然后再继续。

Well, let's take a break here, and then we can come back.

我们可以谈谈火烧罗马、基督徒，还有回答很多问题，因为

We can set Rome on fire, talk about the Christians, and do lots of questions because

我们还有很多问题要处理。

we have a ton questions to get through.

是的。

Yeah.

好的。

Alright.

待会儿见。

See you in a second.

欢迎回到《余下的历史》。

Welcome back to the rest is history.

汤姆·荷兰正在谈论尼禄，这是他最钟爱的主题之一，而我只是跟着他一路听下去。

Tom Holland is pronouncing on Nero, one of his favorite subjects, and I am just really along for the ride.

我们有很多问题，汤姆，我觉得我们应该直接开始，这样可以覆盖那些我们还没讨论过的主题。

We have got lots of questions, Tom, and I think we should just go straight in because that way we can cover the subjects we haven't already done.

所以本·克劳登问，不列塔尼库斯后来怎么样了？

So Ben Crowden, he says, what happened to Britannicus?

他是克劳狄乌斯的儿子，你可能会说他本该成为皇帝。

So this is Claudius' son who you might say ought to have been emperor.

也许你可以谈谈你认为不列塔尼库斯是否被剥夺了皇位，但到底他后来发生了什么？

Maybe you can say whether you think Britannicus was robbed or whatever, but but what happened to him?

尼禄杀了他吗？

Did Nero kill him?

如果他登上了皇位，事情可能会有什么不同？

And how different might things have been if he descended to the throne?

这引发了一个有趣的问题：尼禄的恶劣行为在多大程度上是源于其地位而非其本性？是否可以说，作为元首，年轻男子一旦拥有这样的权力，就会行为不端？

And that raises an interesting question about how much Nero's bad behavior is actually a consequence of the role rather than the man, whether it was you know, the the nature of the princeps meant that, you know, young men behaved badly when they had that sort of authority.

总之，你请说吧，

Anyway, go ahead,

不列塔尼库斯。

Britannicus.

所以，尼禄成为皇帝后，不列塔尼库斯据说在一次宴会上因食物中毒而死。

So so Britannicus, after Nero has become emperor, he he supposedly food poisoning at a banquet.

在朱里亚·克劳狄家族中，凡是在宴会上死于食物中毒的人，人们难免会怀疑是中毒所致。

And inevitably, in the Giulia Claudia family who dies of food poisoning at a banquet, there are suspicions that poison has operated.

这一点毫无疑问。

And there's no question.

尼禄和不列塔尼库斯之间的关系似乎并不好。

Relations between Nero and Britannicus don't seem to have been great.

不列塔尼库斯一直称呼尼禄为‘亨诺巴尔布斯’，那是他被克劳狄乌斯收养前的旧名。

Britannicus kept calling Nero a henobarbus after his which was no longer his name because he'd been adopted by Claudius.

所以尼禄把这当作一种侮辱。

So Nero took that as a slight.

有一个非常不堪的故事，说尼禄强暴了他，不是因为他特别想这么做，而是为了确立自己的主导地位并羞辱不列塔尼库斯。

There's a very unpleasant story that Nero sodomises him, not because he particularly wanted to, but as a way of establishing his dominance and humiliating Britannicus.

这就是那种令人不快的故事。

So that's the kind of unpleasant story.

关于毒杀的传闻是，他雇用了一位名叫卢卡斯塔的专家，她调制了毒药，但药效太慢了。

And then the story about the poisoning is that, he employs this specialist called Lucasta who brews up poison, and, it's it's kind of too slow operating.

尼禄说，你知道的，把药性加强一点。

And Nero says, you know, make it more powerful.

他们拿一头猪做试验，猪立刻就死了。

And they try it out on a pig, and the pig immediately dies.

于是尼禄说，太好了。

And so Nero says, that's great.

不列塔尼库斯死了，第二天就被匆忙火化，草草埋葬了。

And Britannicus dies, and gets burned the next day on a on a on a pyre and gets kind of rushed off to, know, gets buried very fast.

尼禄非常高兴，干脆让卢卡斯塔当起了毒药导师。

And Nero's so thrilled that he he basically sets Lucasta up as a kind of poisoning tutor.

所以，他据说派人去跟卢卡斯塔学习。

So she she she you know, he he supposedly sends people off to study with Lucasta.

我的意思是，这一切，你知道，这些

I mean, all of this is I mean, know, this

实际上，这一切都是对的。

actually all of this is Yeah.

这所有的一切，你知道，都是因为不列塔尼库斯挡了路。

This is all this is all you know, the Britannicus is in the way.

他死了。

He he he dies.

我认为，这里既有动机，也有机会。

I, you know, I wouldn't I would say that there was motive and opportunity there.

所以，你难道不能这么认为吗？

So But you could argue, couldn't you?

我的意思是，回到我关于角色本质的观点，你可以说，尼禄让不列塔尼库斯活着简直是疯了。

I mean, going back to my point about the nature of the role, you could argue that Nero would have been mad to allow Britannicus to live.

实际上

That actually

当然。

Absolutely.

有点倒霉。

Sort of bad luck.

你知道的？

You know?

但不列塔尼库斯必须

But Britannicus has

走。

to go.

挡路了。

Kind of in the way.

此外，苏埃托尼乌斯提到一个精彩的细节：尼禄杀害不列塔尼库斯，与其说是因为他构成威胁，不如说是因为他的歌声比尼禄更好。

Also, a a wonderful detail in Suetonius that Nero, kills Britannicus less because he's a threat, actually, than because he has a better singing voice than Nero.

所以，这再次是典型的例子，你知道，

So, again, that's that's kind of classic example of the way that, you know It's

就像诺尔和利亚姆·加拉格那样，这种特定的关系，不是吗？

very, Noel and Liam Gallagher, that that particular dynamic, isn't it?

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

好的。

Alright.

那么，这就是不列塔尼库斯。

Well, let's so that's Britannicus.

现在我们来讨论一个关键问题。

Now let's move on to a crucial question.

大卫·班克斯，尼禄是历史上最强大的红发人吗？

David Banks, was Nero the most powerful ginger of all time?

我认为是红发，我猜这并不是拼写错误，他不是想写‘歌手’。

I think it ginger I'm assuming that's not a misprint, and he hasn't written singer.

不是。

No.

我认为是红发。

It's I think it's ginger.

是的。

Yeah.

我们继续说

We go on to

是米齐·哈灵顿，对吧？

Mizzie Harrington, haven't we?

哦，对。

Oh, yes.

发色是基于雕像的证据或文献描述，还是仅仅因为偏见，人们认为这种不良行为只能来自红发人？

Is the hair color based on evidence of statues or descriptions in documents or merely because prejudice that people have assumed that this kind of bad behavior could only come from a ginger?

我不知道，汤姆。

I don't know, Tom.

尼禄确定是红头发吗？

Was Nero definitely ginger haired?

嗯，这源于他的家族名称‘Hena Barbas’，意思是青铜色胡须。

Well, so it comes from, again, his family name, Hena Barbas, which, basically means bronze beard.

这是一个古老的传说：Hena Barbie 的祖先在一场大战进行时骑马前往罗马。

And this is an an ancient legend that the the ancestor of the Hena Barbie is, he's he's coming back from, he's riding to Rome while a great battle is being fought.

他不知道这场战役的结果如何。

He doesn't know what the result of the battle is.

卡斯托尔和波吕克斯，那对神圣的双子星，双子座，出现在他面前，告诉他罗马人赢得了战役，然后抚摸了他的胡须，使胡须变成了青铜色。

Castor and Pollux, the the divine twins, Gemini, appear to him and say that the Romans have won the battle, and then they stroke his beard, which turns bronze.

所以是一种类似红发的颜色。

So a kind of gingery.

因此，据说从那时起，所有亨诺巴布斯家族的人都有红胡子，这大概就是尼禄被描绘成红胡子的原因。

And so supposedly, all the henobabi from that point on have a ginger beard, and so that's presumably why Nero is portrayed as having a ginger beard.

但实际上，苏埃托尼乌斯说他的头发是浅金色的。

Although, actually, Suetonius says that his hair was was light blonde.

所以，好吧。

So Alright.

是的。

Yeah.

有点像，我们也不确定。

Bit of you know, we don't know.

我们不知道。

We don't know.

所以他更像是我们做《权力的游戏》播客时的情况。

So he's more like the we were doing the Game of Thrones podcast.

我们谈到了杰克·格里森，他饰演了乔佛里。

We talked about Jack Gleeson, who was Joffrey.

他更像乔佛里，不是吗？

He's more Joffrey, isn't he?

阴险，我的意思是，我就是这么想象他的，因为《权力的游戏》里的乔佛里是个非常

Mean, I that's kind of the that's how I imagine him, because Joffrey in Game of Thrones is this very

那种

sort of

是的

yeah.

还有他整体的举止。

And just his general demeanor.

是的

Yeah.

他是个任性、残忍、反复无常的孩子，诸如此类。

He's a sort of willful child who is cruel and capricious and all that sort of stuff.

我的意思是，差不多

I mean, that's kind

什么样的

of what

尼禄就是这样的人。

Nero is.

在乔弗里的层面上。

On the Joffrey level.

你不觉得他没那么糟糕吧？

You don't think he's as bad as that?

嗯，我跟你说。

Well, I tell you.

关于尼禄的一点是，他实际上非常奢侈。

So one of the thing one of the things about Nero is that, he's actually very luxurious.

至于乔弗里，当然，你知道，他到处杀人。

So Joffrey, of course, I mean, he, you know, he goes around killing everyone.

是的。

Yeah.

但我是说，你说他生活奢华，但我想象你也很奢华，可你从未把妻子踢死，而尼禄却

But but I mean, you say he's luxurious, but I mean I mean, I imagine you're very luxurious, but you've never kicked your wife to death, which Nero

我们并不确定尼禄真的这么做了。

We don't know that Nero did.

所以尼禄娶了克劳狄乌斯的女儿。

So Nero marries Claudius' daughter.

换句话说，他娶了自己的妹妹。

So effectively, he's marrying his sister.

你们托勒密家族可就喜欢这种事了。

You didn't with your Ptolemies, you'd you'd enjoy that.

是的。

Yeah.

他不喜欢奥克塔维娅。

He doesn't he doesn't like Octavia.

他最初深爱的是一位名叫阿克特的叙利亚自由民女性，他对她充满热情的眷恋。

His first great love is a Syrian freed woman called Akte, who he's passionately devoted to.

阿格里皮娜，他和阿格里皮娜之间的一个问题就是，阿格里皮娜不赞成这件事，她不希望一个获释奴隶成为儿媳。

Agrippina one of one of the things that comes between him and Agrippina is Agrippina doesn't approve of this, doesn't want a freedwoman as as, you know, a a daughter-in-law.

所以

So

所以是一个前奴隶。

So an ex slave.

获释女性。

Freedwoman.

一个前奴隶。

An ex slave.

是的。

Yeah.

所以尼禄基本上和她分开了，但一直对她怀有感情。

So so so Nero basically kind of splits up with her, but always is is always fond of her.

尼禄去世时，是阿克特为他下葬。

And when Nero dies, it's Actae who who buries him.

然后他爱上了帕佩亚·萨比娜，我们在《宦官》那一集里已经提到过她。

He then falls in love with Papea Sabina, who we've talked about already in in the Eunuch episode.

是的。

Yeah.

但她却是罗马最时尚的女性。

But she's the most fashionable woman in Rome.

她用驴奶洗澡。

She bathes in in aces milk.

她有自己的化妆品系列。

She has her own cosmetics range.

她说：‘我希望在我变老之前死去’——这比罗杰·达特里和皮特·汤森德早了很多年。

She says, I wanna die I hope I die before I get old, years before Roger Daltrey and Pete Townsend did.

她的愿望实现了，因为她死于分娩。

And her wish comes true because she dies in childbirth.

据说尼禄……是的。

And the story is is that Nero Yeah.

把他踢死了。

Kicked her to death.

他踢了她，但我们并不知道这一点。

Kicked her but we don't know that.

我们不知道。

We don't

这一点。

know that.

我们怎么能知道呢？

How can we know that?

再次强调，这是敌人编造的关于他的恶意故事。

Again, it's the kind of malevolent story that would be told about him by his enemies.

但我们知道尼禄深爱着她，因为他将她神化了。

But we know that Nero was devoted to her because he deifies her.

他在她的葬礼上焚烧了一整年来自阿拉伯的香料，并且当然，他还建造了一个类似她的、僵硬而残缺的活体模型，那是一个长相与她一模一样的 freedman，这个男孩

He lavishes a year's worth of of incense from Arabia at her funeral, and, of course, he he constructs a kind of sterile, maimed, living model of her in the form of this freedman, this this boy who looks exactly like her, who

这是斯波鲁斯。

This is Sporus.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yes.

我们这一集还没出现过生殖器阉割的情节呢。

And we haven't had any genital mutilation in this episode yet.

所以现在来了。

So here it comes.

于是他的生殖器和阴茎被切除，尼禄悬赏寻找能把他真正变成女人的人。

So the genitals and penis get removed, and Nero offers money for someone who could make him a real woman.

也就是真正地把他变成女人，植入子宫等等。

So properly make him a woman, implant a uterus, and and so on.

这做不到。

Can't do that.

但就他能做到的程度而言，他重新塑造了波皮娅。

But to the degree that he can, he he he recreates Pompeia.

他这么做显然是因为，你知道，他

And he does this clearly because he, you know, he's

这真是太奇怪了，汤姆，我觉得这种行为称得上是奢侈的定义。

That's a very strange Tom, I think this is a pretty strange definition of luxurious behavior.

我的意思是，即使是罗马皇帝，这种行为也非同寻常。

I mean, it's unusual behavior even for a Roman emperor.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，这

I mean It's

这几乎是一种错误的方式，来表达他对已故妻子的爱。

a near it's an erronean form of of of displaying his passion for his dead wife.

是的。

Yes.

然后他娶了另一位妻子，斯托蒂莉亚·美萨利娜，她和波皮亚一样，机智、优雅、出身贵族，显然是尼禄喜欢的类型。

And and then he he marries another, woman, Stotilia Messalina, who is like Papea, witty, sophisticated, aristocratic, clearly very much Nero's type.

你知道，他一直忠于她，尽管他同时又娶了这个所谓的赫里萨斯预备役。

And, you know, he's he's he stays true to her, even though he's also simultaneously married this this kind of Hirsat preparer.

是的。

Yeah.

所以他娶了这个宦官。

So he's married to this eunuch.

我的意思是，这叫忠贞。

I mean, that's that's staying true.

这种说法对事情的描述太宽松了。

It's a very loose description of stuff.

我知道。

I know.

我知道。

I know.

这并不是这并不是这并不是

It's not it's it's it's

这可能是南伦敦的道德观，汤姆，但在奇平你可没法这么干

this may be South London morality, Tom, but you wouldn't get away with this in chipping

这是一种错误地忠于这三个词的形式：阿基特、佩佩亚和斯托蒂莉亚·美萨利娜。

It's it's it's it's an erronean form of being faithful to these three words, akite, pepaea, and and Sotelio Messalina.

他本质上是对这三个人忠贞不渝。

He's essentially devoted to the three of them.

我有点记不清我们是怎么说到这个的了。

I can't quite remember how we got on to that.

但不管怎样，我的意思是，他并没有表面上看起来那么糟糕，只是他表现行为的方式依然令人恐惧。

But, anyway, basically, I'm saying he's not as bad as he seemed, but the way in which he shows his behavior is still terrifying.

一个被认定的传统忠诚丈夫。

Convinced conventional loving husband.

我觉得我们已经把他看透了。

I think that's we've got him nailed down.

好吧。

Alright.

我们继续吧。

Let's move on.

史蒂芬·克拉克，本节目的朋友，有一个问题。

Stephen Clark, a friend of the show, has a question.

是谁或什么引发了罗马大火？

Who or what caused the great fire of Rome?

尼禄把责任归咎于谁？

Whom did Nero blame for it?

如果我可以加个转折的话，为什么尼禄本人反而被指责，而且大家都认为他在罗马燃烧时拉小提琴？

And if I can add a twist, how is it that Nero himself came to be blamed for it and that everybody thinks he fiddled while Rome burned?

显然，他根本就没有小提琴。

Obviously, he didn't even have fiddles.

所以并不是他是个骗子。

So it's not He's a liar.

所以他是在说‘是的’。

So he's talking about Yeah.

这个谎言。

The lie.

但那全是胡说八道，不是吗？

But that's all rubbish, isn't it?

他并没有在罗马燃烧时弹奏乐器。

He didn't play while Rome burned.

好吧，传说中尼禄放火烧了罗马，基本上是因为他是个类似勒·柯布西耶式的纵火狂。

Well, so the the the stories are that that Nero sets fire to Rome, basically, because he's a a kind of pyromaniacal Le Corbusier.

他不喜欢罗马的建筑。

He doesn't like Rome's architecture.

他觉得那些狭窄曲折的街道令人不安。

He he he he finds its kind of narrow winding streets upsetting.

他想要更现代、更整洁的城市。

He wants something more modern and clean.

所以他就像一个杀人成性的20世纪50年代的城市规划师。

So he's he's a kind of murderous nineteen fifties town planner.

是的。

Yes.

他就是那个设计了巴西利亚的人。

He's the man who made Brasilia.

是的。

Yes.

所以这就是这个故事。

So so that's the story.

更进一步的说法是，他把罗马大火当作背景，来吟咏特洛伊的陷落。

And the further story is that he treats burning Rome as a kind of backdrop to sing about the fall of Troy.

这真的吗？

Is this true?

或者大概不是。

Or probably not.

我的意思是，我觉得大概有80%不是这样。

I I mean, I'd say kind of 80% not.

罗马就像一个火药桶。

Rome is a tinderbox.

它主要由木材建成。

It's largely made of wood.

到处都存放着各种易燃材料。

There are all kinds of flammable materials stored everywhere.

大火持续了九天。

It it it rages for nine days.

它烧毁了城市的大部分区域。

It incinerates much of the city.

火灾发生时，尼禄并不在场。

Nero is not there when when it burns down.

他急忙赶了回来。

He comes rushing back.

正如我所说，他非常擅长试图控制火势。

As I've said, he's he he, you know, he's he's very proficient at trying to fight it.

他基本上表现得负责任且得体。

He basically behaves responsibly and well.

他确实重建了罗马，我想用勒·柯布西耶的方式来形容。

And he does indeed rebuild Rome in I guess Le Corbusier would be the way.

我的意思是，一种平行的类比。

I mean, a kind of parallel.

而且

And

所以传统主义者认为他该受责备，是吗？

so traditionists think he's a traditionists blame him, do they?

事情是这样运作的吗？

Is that how it works?

但随后他建造了这座所谓的金宫，这不仅仅是一座令人惊叹的宫殿，他还在罗马中心建了一个相当于国家规模的庞大建筑群。

Well, but he then goes on to build this kind of golden house, which is this huge it's not just the house itself, which is stunning, but he builds essentially the equivalent of a country state in the middle of Rome.

因此，再次说明，德尼罗的角色暗示了他热爱悖论与震撼。

So, again, there's a kind of hint there as De Niro's character that he loves paradox and shock.

没有什么比这更悖论了。

Nothing could be more paradoxical.

没有什么比在世界上最拥挤的城市中心建造一个乡村庄园更令人震惊的了。

Nothing could be more shocking than to create a country estate in the middle of the most crowded city in the world.

当然，这激怒了那些失去财产的人。

And, of course, this this, you know, infuriates people whose property's been lost.

你知道，一些参议员失去了他们的财产。

You know, senator senators have lost property.

是的。

Yeah.

大量穷人失去了他们的财产。

Large numbers of the poor have lost their property.

看到尼禄建造这片庄园，你知道，这当然会激起怨恨。

And to see Nero building this estate is, you know I mean, of course, it kind of provokes resentment.

所以，除了塔西佗之外，我们所有的资料都表示尼禄是纵火者。

So all but pretty much all our sources apart from Tacitus says that Nero did start the fire.

他们基本上都说他放了火。

They essentially say he starts the fire.

你知道，苏埃托尼乌斯说，因为他想让罗马看起来更美，其他人则说他想建房子。

You know, Suetonius says because he wants to make Rome look more beautiful, others because he wants to to to to build the house.

这可信吗？

Is it credible?

我再次说，我认为不可信。

I I again, I said, I I think not.

但我认为，就尼禄的性格而言，不能完全证明他没有纵火。

But I think there is you know, it's what I would say about Nero's character is that it's not entirely proven that he didn't start it.

所以他可能做了？

So he could have done it?

他可能做了。

He could have done.

这在我看来，还在尼禄性格可能的范围之内。

It's it's not it's kind of within the bounds, I think, of the kind of personality that Nero seems

他就是这样一种爱开玩笑的人。

to have It's a joker style.

是的。

Yeah.

他很有可能做过这件事。

Believably have done it.

当然，这场大火之所以臭名昭著，还因为它首次牵涉到基督徒。

And the but, of course, the fire is also notorious because it's the first entry of Christians.

对。

Right.

那是他干的吗？

So is that him?

是他把责任推给基督徒，还是说当时普遍有这样的说法？

He blames the Christians, or is that just generally in the air

他捕捉到了

and he picks up on

还是他反映了它

it or he reflects it

或者怎么说呢？

or whatever?

尼禄指责基督徒、逮捕他们，然后以一种典型的尼禄式方式将他们处死的故事。

Story of of of Nero blaming the Christians and having them arrested and then having them put to death in very, very a kind of typically Neronian manner.

他们被浸透了沥青。

They are soaked in pitch.

他们被钉在十字架上。

They are crucified.

然后他们被点燃，成为火炬。

Then they're set on fire so that they serve as torches.

尼禄穿着赛车手的服装，四处游荡，看着他们。

Nero kind of wanders around dressed as a charioteer looking at them.

所以，他某种程度上是在扮演儿子的角色。

So it's kind of he's playing the role of the son.

他正在对他们施加一种适合纵火犯的惩罚。

He's visiting on them a kind of, you know, the the punishment that is appropriate to arsonists.

这段文字中有大量内容是不清楚的。

There's a huge amount about this passage that is that is unclear.

不清楚为什么基督徒会被指控与此事有关。

It's it's unclear why the Christians are being accused of it.

也不清楚尼禄究竟是如何得知他们的存在的。

It's it's unclear exactly, how it is that Nero has even become aware of their existence.

因为当时他们在罗马的数量一定非常少，对吧？

Because they must be so tiny at this point, are they, in Rome?

而且，这也与他们有关。

Mean And also, it's of them.

这是我们从任何史料中获得的唯一一处将基督徒归咎于此事的记载。

It is the only mention of of of Christians being blamed for this that we that that we get in any of the sources.

而且，我的意思是，表面上看。

And well, I mean, overtly.

所以，有一位叫布伦特·肖的学者提出，也许这件事根本就没发生过。

And so there has the a guy called Brent Shaw has a scholar called Brent Shaw has has posited that perhaps it it it didn't even happen.

我的意思是，这要求你严重歪曲证据。

I mean, I think that that really requires you to manipulate the evidence severely.

但确实，这件事有一些神秘的特质。

But but but there are there are, you know, there are kind of mysterious qualities to it.

正因如此，我认为尼禄显然针对了基督徒，我想是因为他们有点古怪，是那种阴森的教派成员。

And it's because of that I mean, I think I think that that clearly Nero did target Christians, I guess, because they were kind of weird, you know, sinister cultists.

没人了解他们，但他们很方便。

Nobody knew anything about them, but they were convenient.

大概他们具有一种末世论的元素。

Presumably, they had a kind of apocalyptic element.

他们是颠覆者。

They were subversives.

他们就在身边，所以他把责任推给了他们。

They were to hand, and so he blames them.

这在《启示录》中也有体现，对吧？

And then that gets reflected in book of Revelation, doesn't it?

这是卢克·威尔逊的问题。

So this is Luke Wilson's question.

你认为他的名字在《启示录》第13章第18节以希伯来文形式书写时，是否符合‘六百六十六’这个人的数字？

Do you think his name fits the number of a man six six six in the book of Revelation, thirteen eighteen when written in the heatproof form?

我不确定我有没有说对。

I don't know if I'm saying that right.

那这里到底发生了什么，汤姆？

Was that so what's going on there, Tom?

我完全不明白这些。

I don't understand any of this.

我完全不在状态。

I'm out of my completely out of my day.

所以，你知道，兽的数目是六六六。

So so, you know, the number of the beast is six six six.

是的。

Yeah.

运用希伯来数字学的视角，这个数字可以音译为尼禄·凯撒。

And applying the prism of of Hebrew numerology, that transliterates into Neron Caesar.

这真的成立吗，还是只是丹·布朗在胡扯？

And so Does it really, or is this Dan Brown talking?

当然成立。

Absolutely, it does.

你知道，从一开始人们就认识到了这一点。

You know, this has been recognized right from the beginning.

好的。

Okay.

所以，本质上，尼禄就是兽，而且它不仅仅出现在《启示录》中。

So, essentially, Nero is the beast, and and it's not just near it's it's not just in the book of Revelation that that that that Nero appears.

因此，有一部公元一世纪末的文本叫《以赛亚升天记》，其中对尼禄作为贝利奥的描述非常精彩。

So there's, a a late first century text called the Ascension of Isaiah, which has a kind of wonderful description of Nero as, as Belior.

它写道：‘贝利阿尔，伟大的统治者，这世界的王，将从天而降，自世界创始以来就统治着它。’

And it's it goes, Belial, the great ruler, the king of this world, will descend who has ruled it since it came into being.

是的。

Yea.

他将以人的形态从天穹降下，一个无法无天的国王，弑母者。

He will descend from his firmament in the likeness of a man, a lawless king, the slayer of his mother.

这将尼禄描绘成

So that's casting Nero

很好。

That's good.

一个字面意义上的邪恶宇宙化身。

As a literally cosmic figure of evil.

而且，你知道，这在某种程度上也是对尼禄个人魅力的一种肯定。

And, you know, that again, in a way, is a kind of tribute to Nero's charisma.

你必须是一个极具力量的人物，我认为是的。

You have to be a figure of incredible potency, I think Yeah.

要令人信服地被描绘为野兽、魔鬼或这个世界的伟大统治者，与拥有永恒的上帝形成对比，这很不容易。

To convincingly be cast as the beast or the devil or the great ruler, the king of this world in contrast to, you know, god who

拥有永恒。

who has eternity.

我不想先入为主地评判任何人，但我认为基尔斯·斯塔曼永远不会被描述为野兽，对吧？

I I don't wanna I don't wanna prejudge anybody, but I don't think Kirst Starman's ever gonna be described as the beast, is he?

不会。

No.

不会。

No.

但我的意思是，即使是普京或特朗普，他们也根本达不到那种层次。

But, I mean, even, you know, even Putin or Trump, mean, you know, they're they're they're just not on that level.

他们无法与之相匹配。

They're not they're not able to to correspond to that.

不过，这里其实有一个有趣的反例：每当人们说尼禄是个怪物时，也总有人对他颇为喜爱。

Although there is a kind of interesting again, a kind of counterpoint to this because where wherever you you get people saying Nero is is a monster, you also get other people who kinda love him.

而一个非常出人意料的群体——二、三、四世纪的拉比们——竟然真的非常欣赏尼禄。他们声称尼禄并没有自杀，而是假死，逃到了犹地亚，并改信了犹太教。

And a very unexpected group of people, who who really do like Nero are the, second, third, fourth century rabbis who claim that Nero didn't commit suicide, that he faked his own death, that he he went to Judea, and he converted to Judaism.

他还留下了一支漫长的拉比世系，他们的著作成为《塔木德》的一部分。

And he fathered a long line of of rabbis whose writings are a part of the Talmud.

因此，这与基督教的视角形成了一种反差。

So that's a kind of counterpoint to the Christian perspective

如果这是真的，汤姆，我真希望如此。

on I would love it if that were if that were true, Tom.

那将会是

That'd be It's

一个很棒的故事，对吧？

a great it's a great story, isn't it?

是的。

Yeah.

确实是。

It is.

而且，再次强调，这简直出人意料得精彩。

And, again, kind of so brilliantly unexpected.

而且你知道，事实上，在公元一世纪，你看到的是各种预言交织在一起的惊人景象。

And and, you know, and the thing is that that, of course, the first century AD, you've got this incredible swirl of of of prophetic stuff.

你有耶稣的死亡。

You've got you've got the death of Jesus.

你有在尼禄统治期间爆发的犹太起义中圣殿被焚毁。

You've got the burning of the temple in the Judean revolt, which breaks out under Nero.

你还有各种预言，说一位将统治世界的君王将从犹太地诞生，这显然为基督教的兴起提供了养分。

And you've got all these prophecies that talk about how a king is going to rule the world coming out of Judea, which obviously feeds into into Christianity.

犹太人对此着迷不已。

Jews are obsessed by it.

这有助于激发犹太人的起义。

It helps to inspire the the Jewish revolt.

但它也影响了尼禄死后的声誉，他被纳入了这些预言之中。

But it does also feed into the posthumous reputation of Nero, and he gets bundled into these prophecies.

有很多人说，就像基督徒相信耶稣会再次降临一样，也有很多人相信尼禄会卷土重来。

And, there are lots and lots of people who say that, like, you know, just as Christians say that Jesus will come again, there are lots of people who say that Nero will come again.

还有很多人说，他会以魔鬼的形象出现，带来混乱和灾难。

And and and lots say that he will come rather in the form of the devil, that he, you know, he'll bring chaos and disaster to the world.

但也有人认为他会归来，并带来一个正义与和平的时代。

But there are also those who say that he will come and he will bring an age of justice and peace.

但我们还是继续谈谈尼禄的结局吧。

But let's let's get on to Nero's exit.

我们之前收到了杰夫·科斯特洛的一个好问题，关于他的临终遗言，我稍后会问。

So, we had some good we had a good question from Jeff Costello about that, about his last words, which I'm gonna ask in a second.

但在那之前，你呈现的尼禄形象——作为表演者、表演型人物、民粹主义者等等——我想很多历史学家都会认同。

But just before that, you know, you've presented a vision a version of Nero that's that's I think a lot of historians would probably go along with, that, you know, he's the showman and the performer and a populist and and all these things.

而且显然他不是疯子，也不是纯粹的、完全失控的虐待狂。

And that he's obviously not a he's not a madman, and he's not a kind of just a completely deranged sadist.

很容易理解为什么群众会厌倦了参议员们谈论正直、罗马严谨之类的言论。

And it's it's it's easy to see why the crowds, you know, would who are probably sick of senators talking about, you know, probity and Roman rigor and stuff.

他们可能早就厌倦了这些，反而喜欢看角斗士表演、观看人们被点燃，或者享受来自埃及的免费面包之类的东西。

They're probably sick of all that, they love a bit of gladiatorial action and watching people being set alight and free bread from Egypt or whatever.

实际上，这很有趣。

Well, Test actually, interesting.

我的意思是，塔西佗确实提到，基督徒所遭受的苦难如此深重，以至于人们的态度略有转变。

I mean, Testus does say that the the sufferings of the Christians are so great that people do slightly turn

转而反对他。

against him.

这很有趣。

That's that's interesting.

是的。

Yeah.

但我的问题是，哪里出了问题？

But my question is, what goes wrong?

为什么有人会反对他？

Why does anyone turn against him?

为什么呢？你知道，当朱里亚·克劳狄王朝已经经历了五位皇帝，尼禄到底做了什么，才如此令人震惊，以至于彻底扭转了元老院对整个王朝的看法？

Why does it all you know, why do people when the Julio Claudians have been there now for five emperors, what is it that Nero does that is sufficiently shocking to turn senatorial opinion so dramatically against the entire dynasty?

因为他是整个王朝的终结者，不是吗？

Because he is the end of the whole dynasty, isn't he?

我的意思是，不仅仅是他的统治。

I mean, not just his reign.

整个王朝的故事在那一年——也就是四帝之年——他被驱逐时，迎来了毁灭性的结局。

It's the whole story comes to a crushing conclusion in that year of, what is it, year of four emperors when he gets kicked out.

是的。

Yeah.

事实上，针对他的阴谋一直在不断升级。

Well so there have been escalating conspiracies against him.

最臭名昭著的是围绕一个叫皮索的人展开的阴谋，这个阴谋牵连到了塞涅卡。

The most notorious is one that revolves around a guy called Piso, and this is the one that drags down Seneca.

因此，塞内加被牵连其中，最终被命令自杀，而他亦顺从地自尽了。

So Seneca gets implicated in that and essentially gets told to commit suicide, which he he dutifully does.

随后，尼禄前往希腊巡游，并驾驶他的十匹马战车参加奥林匹克运动会。

Nero then goes on this tour of Greece where he he races in the Olympic games with his 10 horse chariot.

你知道，大多数人通常只用两匹或四匹马。

You know, most people only have two or four.

人们总是对此嗤笑，因为他撞车了，不得不换一辆新的战车。

So and and people always laugh at this because he he he crashes and has to have be given a new chariot.

他虽然没有完成比赛，却依然被授予了第一名。

He doesn't complete the race, but he still wins first prize.

但关键是，我意思是，这么做需要勇气。

But the thing is, I mean, it's it's it takes courage to do that.

这就像一个非职业的F1车手去参加摩纳哥大奖赛一样，需要极大的勇气。

It would take courage to compete in, you know, if somebody can't isn't a professional Formula one driver to compete at Monaco or whatever.

当尼禄外出期间，关于阴谋的更多谣言开始酝酿。

So while Nero's away, further rumors of conspiracy start to brew.

第二年，传来高卢爆发公开叛乱的消息，随后西班牙又爆发了由70岁严苛将领加尔巴领导的另一场公开叛乱。

The following year, news comes of of a open rebellion in Gaul, then another open rebellion in Spain led by the 70 year old martinet called Galba.

尼禄据说曾说，他要亲自去对叛乱的士兵们演戏，让他们感动得泪流满面，然后他们就会……你知道的。

And Nero, there are all kinds of stories that he says that he's he's going to go and, play the liar to the rebellious soldiers, and they will burst into tears, and then they'll you know?

是的。

Yeah.

他打算就这样对付他们。

That's how he's going to fight them.

但另一方面，他实际上对叛乱的反应相当积极。

But, again, this is counterpointed to he's actually clearly quite energetic in his response.

他集结了所能调动的所有军队。

He musters what troops he can.

他派兵北上，镇压高卢的叛乱。

He sends them north to to combat the the revolt in Gaul.

随后，各种谣言传到他耳中，说这些军队正在倒戈，整个局势正在彻底崩溃。

And then all kind of rumors reach him that that, basically, these troops are turning against him, that the whole thing is is falling to pieces.

禁卫军指挥官，一个连尼禄标准来看都是十足混蛋的人，突然倒戈反叛尼禄，我认为他看到一丝外部机会，或许能自己夺取帝国。

And the commander of the Praetorians, who's, you know, an absolute shit, even by Nero standards, basically turns on Nero, I think because he sees a kind of outside chance that he might be able to grab the empire for himself.

于是尼禄突然发现罗马城内没有一兵一卒，他打算逃往亚历山大港，那里他非常受欢迎。

So Nero suddenly finds that he he doesn't have any troops in Rome, and he is intending to flee to Alexandria where he'd be very popular.

是的。

Yeah.

他肯定在那里集结了军队。

Must have mustered troops there.

但他后来改变了主意。

But then he changes his mind.

他逃离了罗马。

He he flees Rome.

他最终躲到罗马郊外的一座别墅里。

He ends up in a villa on the outskirts of of Rome.

有人向他报告，元老院已宣布他为国家公敌，一旦被抓捕，将被判处极刑，于是他自杀了。

And the news is brought to him that the senate has declared him a public enemy and that he's going to be sentenced to a horrible death when he gets found, and so he he commits suicide.

但他做了什么激怒了这些阴谋者，汤姆？

But what has he done to provoke these conspirators, Tom?

我的意思是，高卢或西班牙那边的加尔巴，为什么他和他的支持者没有得到报酬？

I mean, why does the guy in Gaul or Spain rather, Galba, why do he and his are they not being paid?

是有什么政策触怒了他们吗？

Is there some policy that's outraged them?

我觉得，你知道，尼禄喜欢制造震惊，他的整个统治时期都在不断挑战那些权贵的底线。

Or think I think it's, you know, it's Nero enjoys shock, and his entire reign has has been a kind of riff on, offending the sensibilities of the very powerful.

他只是把他们逼得太过了。

And he's just pushed them too far.

我觉得他确实把他们逼得太过了。

I I think he's pushed them too far.

这正好赶上了罗马的饥荒时期，这对他来说真是倒霉。

It coincides with a period of famine in Rome, so that's that's bad luck for him.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，元老院和民众对他的支持都在动摇，这给了那些总是虎视眈眈的人可乘之机。

And so the sense that both senatorial and popular support for him is wobbling give people you know, people are always predatory the chance to to strike.

是的。

Yeah.

这就引出了杰夫最后的问题。

And then that brings us to Jeff's question, finally.

他的临终遗言真的是‘一个伟大的艺术家就此陨落’，或是类似的表达吗？

Were his last words really a great artist dies with me or variation thereof?

嗯，苏埃托尼乌斯是这么说的。

Well, that's what Suetonius says.

苏埃托尼乌斯说，他的临终遗言是‘qualis artefex perio’。

Well, Suetonius says that his last words are qualis artefex perio.

因此，这通常被翻译为‘一个伟大的艺术家就此陨落’。

And so that's traditionally translated as what an artist dies with me.

但有一位名叫爱德华·钱伯伦的学者，他写了一本关于尼禄最出色的著作，我认为他非常有说服力地指出，‘artifex’实际上指的是从事建筑工作的工匠。

But there's, I think, convincingly a scholar called Edward Champion who's written the best book on Nero argues, I think, very convincingly that artifacts actually means a kind of artisan, a workman who's employed to do building work.

本质上，尼禄在这些瓦砾遍地的房子里所做的，就是他已经被贬低到了这种地步。

And, essentially, that's what Nero is doing in in the kind of this this rubble strewn house, is that he's been reduced to this level.

他就是在表达这个意思。

That's what he's saying.

他说，你知道，他曾经是一位伟大的艺术家，但看看现在的我。

He's saying, you know, he was a great artist, but now look at me.

我现在只不过是个舞台助理。

I've just become a stagehand.

这几乎与人们传统上认为他所说的话完全相反。

It's almost the opposite of of what people traditionally think he said.

而且，某种程度上，对尼禄来说，这种恐怖就在于，最终他并没有获得自己认为配得上他的死亡方式。

And, you know, in a sense, that that is the kind of I guess, for Nero, it's it's the horror, is that in the end, he doesn't have a death that he feels would be appropriate to him.

他没有以一种悲壮辉煌的方式谢幕。

He doesn't go out in the kind of blaze of tragic glory.

这反而显得很可悲，甚至可悲至极。

It's rather pathetic, even pathetic.

苏埃托尼乌斯的记载中有一段可怕的描述：在他自杀后，他让一名自由民帮他割开自己的喉咙。

And there's a horrible description in Suetonius' account that after he's committed suicide, he gets a a a free man to help him slit his own throat.

鲜血喷涌而出。

The blood pumps out.

一名百夫长策马冲入，试图用毛巾堵住流血，但为时已晚。

Centurion comes galloping in, tries to staunch the flow with a towel, but it's too late.

我们被告知，他的眼睛可怕地凸出。

And we're told that his eyes bulged horribly.

天啊。

Oh, god.

这可不是体面的死法，对吧？

That's no way to go, is it?

还有最后两个问题。

So two last questions.

第一个是关于继承人的问题。

One is about succession.

尼禄死了。

So Nero's dead.

为什么接替人选这么混乱，难以确定呢？

Why is it such a shambles to sort out who comes next?

为什么没人达成一致？

Why has nobody agreed?

因为你有加尔巴、奥托、维特里乌斯和韦斯巴芗。

Because you have Galba, Otho, Vitellius, and Vespasian.

是的。

Yeah.

那为什么

And why does

为什么会这么混乱呢？

that why is that such a kind of mess?

为什么所有反对派都没能达成一致？我的意思是，为什么

Why haven't all the opposition agreed on I mean, how why

他们就没有候选人吗？

have they got no no candidates?

因为人们一直认为，奥古斯都的后裔应该统治。

Because, people have assumed that a descendant of Augustus should rule.

当尼禄去世时，他实际上是奥古斯都最后一位后裔，其他人不是被杀就是去世了。

And when Nero dies, and effectively, he's the last of of the descendants of Augustus, you know, all the others have been killed or died.

各种异象纷纷出现。

All kinds of portents are seen.

你知道的？

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

利维娅种下的树枯萎凋零。

Trees planted by Livia wither and perish.

在广场上有一棵雪松，它的根系蔓延到整个广场，而这棵树也死了。

There's a there's a cypress tree in the Forum that its roots spread all the way to you know, across the Forum, and that dies as well.

所以所有这些征兆都表明，某种可怕的事情已经发生了。

So all these kind of portents are seeing that something something terrible has happened.

因此，问题是：如果不再有任何凯撒，还能由凯撒统治吗？

And so the question is, can you have rule by Caesar if there are no longer any Caesars?

某种程度上，克劳狄乌斯开辟了先例，因为他本人并非凯撒后裔，但元老院却将‘凯撒’这一头衔授予了他。

And in a way, Claudius has blazed the trail because he wasn't a Caesar, but he's been voted the name of Caesar as a kind of title by the senate.

因此，实际上，正是从这时起，‘凯撒’这个名称开始被用作皇帝的代称，而非仅仅是一个家族姓氏。

And so, effectively, this is where the idea that the name Caesar, you know, is shorthand for an emperor rather than a family name comes in.

是的。

Yeah.

但显然，如果你不再需要由奥古斯都的后裔来统治世界，那么基本上任何人都可以成为凯撒。

But, obviously, if if you don't have to have, a a descendant of Augustus ruling the world, then basically anyone can become Caesar.

这就是重大的发现，也正是为什么尼禄在公元68年死去。

And that's the the kind of the great discovery, and that's why Nero dies in '68.

而公元69年被称为‘四帝之年’，因为有四个人争相争夺皇位。

And the year '69 is known as the year of the four emperors because you have four people all kind of scrambling after it.

这简直就像《权力的游戏》。

It's very Game of Thrones.

他们为什么从来不恢复共和制呢？

Why don't they ever why don't they just restore the republic?

或者现在既然他们已经运行着一个

Or is that just not possible now that they're running a

大的体制已经不复存在了。

big It's gone.

你知道，这就像是，为什么我们不回到维多利亚女王时代的政治体制呢？

You know, it's it's you know, it's kind of like, you know, why don't we go back to the political system of queen Victoria?

这根本就是不可能的。

And it's just, you know, it's just impossible.

是的。

Yeah.

所以实际上，你需要一位皇帝来领导。

So effectively, you need an emperor at the head.

有趣的是四帝之年这段时期，有四位皇帝：加尔巴、奥托、维特里乌斯和韦斯巴芗。

And what know, what's interesting about the era of the four emperors, those so there are those four emperors, Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Vespasian.

这四位皇帝中有两位是尼禄的亲密盟友。

Two of those emperors are close associates of Nero.

奥托虽然被流放去统治葡萄牙，但他实际上是尼禄最要好的朋友，相当于布林顿俱乐部的核心人物，对吧？

Otho, although he'd been exiled effectively to go and rule Portugal, had been he'd been kind of Nero's chief friend in the equivalent of the Bullington club Right.

而且他曾经一度娶了帕皮娅为妻。

And had actually, at one point, been married to Papaya.

所以他是尼禄的乔治·奥斯本，就像尼禄是大卫·卡梅伦一样。

So he's George Osborne to Nero's David Cameron.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Exactly.

没错。

Exactly.

当他回来时，他就打出了尼禄这张牌。

And so when he comes back, he plays the Nero card.

他竖起了尼禄的雕像。

He he puts up Nero's statues.

他出资继续修建金宫。

He he pays for the golden house to continue to be to to be developed.

维特里乌斯也是

Vitellius also is

他很胖，对吧？

He's very fat, isn't he?

他确实很胖，但他非常……你知道的，他很崇拜尼禄。

He's very fat, but he's he's he's very you know, he's he's he likes Nero.

他把自己塑造成尼禄的继承人。

He he casts himself as the heir of Nero.

而最终获胜的韦斯巴芗，本质上是个粗犷型的人物，就像你，多米尼克。

And it's only because ultimately the guy who wins, Vespasian, is, you know, a rough hewn kind of like you, Dominic.