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理查德·瓦格纳曾说过：'除了从烧毁巴黎开始的那场革命，我不再相信任何其他革命。' 这句话充分说明了法国首都不仅在法国人自己，而且在全世界想象中所扮演的超凡角色。
I no longer believe in any other revolution, said Richard Wagner, save that which begins with the burning down of Paris, a comment that speaks volumes about the outsized role that the French capital has played in the imaginings, not just of the French themselves, but of the entire world.
而今天的节目，是我们《历史的余韵》首次将一整座城市的历史作为专题内容。
And, today's episode is the first episode of The Rest of History that we're devoting to the history of an entire city.
与我一同主持的是多米尼克·桑德布鲁克。
And Dominic Sandbrook with me.
那必须是巴黎，对吧，说真的？
It's gotta be Paris, hasn't it, really?
我想是的。
I suppose so.
我认为巴黎在世界的想象中扮演了这个标志性的角色，不是吗？在过去的，嗯，至少五百年，也许一千年里。
I think Paris has played this emblematic role, hasn't it, in the world's imagination for the best part of well, certainly five hundred years, maybe a thousand years.
汤姆，其实我一点也不喜欢巴黎。
I actually don't like Paris at all, Tom.
正如我们的推特粉丝们会知道的那样，是的。
As our Twitter followers will know Yes.
他们确实知道。
They do.
因为，显然我们每周做节目时都会征集问题。
Because because every week, obviously, when we do an episode, we ask for questions.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我的问题，非常亲法。
So mine, very francophile.
我，那个，你知道的，
I that's that's you know,
我们会追溯那些让我惊讶的事物。
we will be tracing surprise me.
我们将追溯这座光明之城两千年来所经历的辉煌、美丽、奇迹与恐怖。
We will be tracing the glories, beauties, wonders, and terrors that have marked two thousand years of the city of light.
那是我说的。
That was me.
是的。
Yeah.
我的问题也在那儿吗？
Have you got mine there as well?
光之城，还是地球上最被高估的城市，到处都是狗粪，你经常看到人们在街上小便？
The city of light or the most overrated city on earth awash in dog excrement where you often see people urinating in the streets?
顺便说一句，我在巴黎经历了有生以来最严重的食物中毒。
I had the worst bout of food poisoning of my life in Paris, incidentally.
你模仿我的声音简直太像了。
You did my voice perfectly.
你模仿得
You did
太像了，约翰。
my voice perfectly, John.
约翰·布尔在说话。
John Bull speaks.
情人节那天我和妻子吃了扇贝，结果我们都病得特别严重。
Had had scallops on Valentine's Day with my wife, and we both got hideously ill.
对我来说，那件事就是巴黎这座光之城的致命一击。
And that to me, that was like the nail in the coffin of the city of light.
实际上，我再也没有回去过。
I haven't been back, actually.
我从来没再回去过。
Never been back.
不过，出国旅行不就是会遇到这种事吗？
That's what comes of going abroad though, isn't it?
人们以前不是常吃月桂豆吗？
Well, people used to take beans of bay beans, didn't they?
一个可怕的警告。
A terrible warning.
是的。
Yes.
谢天谢地。
Thank goodness then.
谢天谢地，除了奇平诺顿的约翰牛，我们还有第一位法国嘉宾，阿涅斯·普瓦雷，她是知名的记者和评论员，不仅为法国和英国听众所熟悉，还写了两本关于巴黎历史的精彩著作：《左岸：艺术、激情与巴黎的重生，1940-1950》。
Thank goodness that as well as the John Bull of Chipping Norton, we have our first French guest, Agnes Poiret, well known journalist, well known commentator who has familiar to both French and and to British, listeners, but also has written two fantastic books on the history of Paris, Left Bank, Art, Passion, and the Rebirth of Paris, 1940 to 1950.
这真是一本了不起的书，因为1940到1950年这段时间，既涵盖了第二次世界大战，又讲述了战后的复苏历程。
And that's a really fabulous book because that 1940 to 1950, you get the Second World War, and then you get the recovery from the Second World War.
这种写法还挺特别的。
That's kind of unusual way of doing it.
然后，艾格尼丝，巴黎圣母院，法国的灵魂，显然你是在那场席卷大教堂的可怕火灾之后写下这本书的。
And then, Agnes, Notre Dame, the soul of France, which obviously you wrote in the aftermath of, the terrible fire that swept the great cathedral.
你非常感人地以一段描述开篇，你知道，你目睹了那场火灾。
And you begin the book very movingly with an account of of, you know, you you watch the fire.
你就住在教堂旁边。
You you live right next to the the cathedral itself.
而巴黎圣母院可能消失的想法，不仅让巴黎人、法国人感到极其难过，也让全世界的人们感到痛心。
And that was something the the thought that Notre Dame might be lost was something that people in Paris, people in France obviously found incredibly upsetting, but also people around the world.
我在想，为什么
And I wonder why do why do
你认为它会产生如此大的影响，一想到巴黎圣母院可能会消失？
you think it had the impact that it did, the thought that Notre Dame might be lost?
嗯，我的意思是，是的，我们得回到那个夜晚，2019年4月15日，我当时碰巧在巴黎。
Well, I mean, yeah, we have to go back on that night, 04/15/2019, and I happened to be in Paris.
说来也巧，我当时正准备评论马克龙总统在黄背心运动骚乱后将要发表的一次讲话。
Strangely, I was preparing to comment on an address that President Macron was going to do after the unrest of the yellow vest, the gilet jaune.
那是个非常、非常美好的一天。
And it was beautiful, beautiful day.
在巴黎时，我很幸运地住在左岸，正对面，能看到南面玫瑰窗的绝佳景色。
And when in Paris, I'm lucky to live right opposite on the left bank with a wonderful view on the south rose window.
晚上七点，我透过厨房窗户看到巨大的黄色烟雾和云团。
And 7PM, I see this huge smoke yellow smoke and clouds through the kitchen window.
于是我赶紧冲到河岸上，因为这烟雾只能来自对面，也就是巴黎圣母院。
And so I rush down on the cay on the river bank, because it could only come from what is opposite, that is to say, Notre Dame.
那是一个戏剧性夜晚的开始。
And that was the beginning of of a very dramatic evening.
这非常奇怪，因为当时有两件事同时发生：你是一个法国人或巴黎人，感受到这种存在层面的冲击，你深感不安，却又不完全明白原因。
And it's it's very strange, because if you're that there were two things happening at the same time, you're a French person or Parisian, and you feel this ontological, you know, shock, and you're profoundly upset, but you don't exactly know why.
当然，它是哥特式建筑的瑰宝。
Of course, it's a gem of Gothic architecture.
她陪伴我们已有超过八百五十年，是人类智慧的结晶。
She's been with us, not today for more than eight fifty years, achievement of humankind.
但事情远不止于此。
But it went much further than that.
而，这实际上也是我想写这本书的原因，我想理解自己的感受。
And, and that's why actually, I wanted to write the book, I wanted to understand my own feelings.
第二个冲击是看到全世界都在和我们一起观看那些画面，并感受到同样的情绪。
Second shock is to see that the whole world is watching with us those images and feel the same thing.
因为我是主持人，这是我的日常工作，你知道，每当法国或巴黎发生什么事，我都会接到来自世界各地的电话，我需要立即找到合适的词语来解释正在发生的一切。
And because I've got to commence, that's my daily job to, you know, everything, every time there's something happening in France or in Paris, I get calls from all over the world, I need to find words immediately to explain what's going on.
我在电视和广播演播室里看到很多人泪流满面，从悉尼到新加坡，再到北京，世界各地都有，有些主持人甚至泣不成声，说：‘我从未去过法国，但我认识巴黎圣母院，我现在泪流满面，你能告诉我，为什么我会这么难过吗？’
And I had people in tears, in TV studios and radio studios, in Sydney, in Singapore, in Beijing, name it all over the world, and some of them presenters, TV presenters in tears saying, and yes, I've never been to France, but I know Notre Dame, I'm in tears, explain why I feel like this.
突然间，我发现自己已经有十五年没踏进过这座大教堂了。
And so suddenly, was I hadn't set foot in the cathedral in fifteen years.
我不是一名虔诚的天主教徒，也不信教。
I'm not a practicing Catholic, I'm not religious.
所以，宗教层面并不能完整解释这一切。
So the religious dimension, you know, couldn't tell the whole story.
因此，如果我们深入核心的话，
And so we're really at the heart, if you'd like,
你
of your
的播客主题为什么是巴黎？
podcast in, you know, why Paris?
当然，你第一个专门献给一座城市的播客，必须是巴黎，因为巴黎正是这座城市的典范。
Of course, had to be the first podcast you would dedicate to a city, because this is the epitome of the city.
我认为这已经持续了一千年。
And I think it's been going on for one thousand years.
那么，如果你能总结一下，你认为这意味着什么？
And what do you think it means then, if you can boil it down?
我的意思是，显然我们打算在一个小时内完成这件事。
I mean, that's obviously we're meant to be doing that in an hour.
但如果你能用大约三句话来概括，你认为巴黎代表着什么？
But if you can boil it down in sort of three lines or so, what is it that Paris represents, you think?
这要看情况。
It depends.
你知道，如果我们从十二世纪开始说起，比如，我们可以——特别是当我们谈论巴黎圣母院时——但我们也可以稍微更现代一些、更当代一些，因为我认为对今天的人们来说，他们对巴黎的印象来源于此，毕竟巴黎既是一种理念，也是一种现实。
You know, if we're starting in the twelfth century, for instance, we could, especially if we're talking about Notre Dame, but we could also be slightly more modern contemporary, in the sense that I think for for people today, they get their idea of Paris because Paris is as much an idea than reality.
是的。
Yeah.
但是，但是你知道有趣的是什么吗？
But but you you know what's interesting, though?
你谈论中世纪和现代，但即使在古代，也有来自君士坦提乌斯大帝的侄子——背教者尤利安的评论。
You talk about the medieval and the modern, but even in antiquity so there's a comment by Julian the apostate who was the nephew of of Constantine the Great.
他谈到巴黎时说。
And he says of Paris.
他称它为卢泰西亚，这是罗马时期的名称，他称之为‘我心爱的卢泰西亚’。
So he talks he calls it Lutetia, which is the Roman name, he calls it my beloved Lutetia.
因此，即使在罗马时期，巴黎显然就已具备某种独特的气质。
So even in the Roman period, there was clearly something about it that that that gave it this kind of sense.
也许我不知道那究竟是什么。
And I perhaps I don't know what it is.
也许只是它的地理位置如此特别。
Perhaps it's just the the positioning of it all the same.
也许只是它地理位置所带来的那种戏剧性？
Perhaps it's just kind of the the drama of its positioning?
我知道。
I I know.
河流沿岸的城市。
Cities on rivers.
我的意思是，肯定不止于此。
I mean, there must be something more than that.
我是说，确实如此。
I mean Yeah.
我，很明显，我的意思是，它是一座重要的罗马城市。
I I clearly, I mean, it it's it's an important Roman city.
巴黎这个名字来源于当地的部落——帕里西人。
Its name Paris comes from the the local tribe, the Parisi.
它挺过了罗马帝国的覆灭。
It survives the fall of Rome.
巴黎的国王们，法兰克国王们直到六世纪还在建造竞技场。
Kings in Paris, the Frankish kings are building amphitheaters as late as the sixth century.
这有点令人惊叹。
It's kind of amazing.
所以在某种意义上，其连续性程度远高于——比如说——伦敦的历史，那里确实发生过某种程度的崩溃。
So in a sense, there's a kind of degree of continuity much get greater than you get, say, in the history of London where there really is a kind of meltdown.
然后它再次崛起，成为后来法国王室家族的主要城市。
And then it emerges again as the main city of what becomes the French royal family.
所以这才是关键，对吧，艾格尼丝？
So that's really the key, isn't it, Agnes?
它从一开始就是一座王室城市。
That it's a royal city from the beginning.
是的，确实如此。
Yes, it is.
实际上，有趣的是，当我说它在十二世纪更多是一种理念而非现实时。
And actually, it's interesting when I say it's the idea as it's as much an idea than a reality in the twelfth century.
看看欧洲各地的城市。
Look at cities all around Europe.
你知道，伦敦有4万居民，实际上，人口最多的城市位于佛兰德斯和意大利北部。
You know, London has 40,000 habitat inhabitants, actually, the most populous cities are found in the Flanders and in Northern Italy.
威尼斯和米兰有二十万居民，这规模非常庞大。
Venice and Milan have 200,000 inhabitants, which is enormous.
但巴黎的人口接近三十万。
But Paris has almost 300,000 inhabitants.
通常城市只承担一种功能，比如根特是商业城市，威尼斯是商业城市，博洛尼亚是大学城。
And while cities usually perform one role, for instance, you know, Ghent, for instance, is a commercial city, or Venice is a commercial city and Bologna is a university city.
而巴黎却承担了所有功能，它既是大学城，又是王城，也是主教之城。
Well, Paris performs all the role, it's a university city, it's a royal city, it's the bishop's City.
它还是商业之城。
It's also the Merchant City.
在那个时期，当圣母院——其实并不意外——于大约十一月到十三世纪末之间建成时，巴黎将经历长达一百五十年的持续增长。
And that time, when actually Notre Dame, it's not a surprise, was built, you know, between, let's say, November and the end of the fourteenth century, the end of thirteenth century, sorry, Paris has, you know, will live through one hundred and fifty years of continuous growth.
想象一下，这种事此后从未再发生过。
Imagine that it's never happened since.
这简直是个梦想，因为我们谈论的是知识的扩展、艺术的繁荣，以及巨大的经济腾飞。
It's a dream, you know, because we're talking about intellectual expansion, artistic economy, it's huge economic boom.
于是，你看，这颗哥特式杰作的瑰宝便从它的核心地带——西岱岛——拔地而起。
And here you are, you know, this gem of a Gothic masterpiece springing from the very heart, the Ile D'Enacite.
而在当时，我们说的是仅那里就有一万居民。
And at the time, we're talking about 10,000 inhabitants just there.
如今，那里只剩下什么，连九百人都不到。
Today, there are only what, not even 900.
而这就是城市的喧嚣，你知道的，那种活力。
And it's the bustle of the city, you know, the life.
富人与穷人和赤贫者比邻而居，就在狭窄的巷弄里。
The rich live next to the poor and destitute and narrow lanes.
我的意思是，当我不得不研究中世纪西岱岛时，那感觉非常特别，因为它是这样的，你知道吗，如果我是一名化学家，我会说这是生命的沉淀物，你明白吗？
I mean, when I had to research that medieval Ile De La Cite, it was extraordinary because it's this, you know, if I was a chemist, I would talk about the precipitate of life, You know?
它就在那里。
It's it's there.
而且这些人来自欧洲各地，不是吗？
And it's coming from all over Europe, isn't it?
我的意思是，还有一点，从一开始，巴黎就像一块磁铁，吸引着人们，不仅仅是来自法国，而是来自整个欧洲。
I mean, that's the other thing that that right from the beginning, Paris is a magnet for people, not just from France, but from from from Europe.
他们要去上大学。
And they're going to the university.
即使在中世纪，巴黎也以其知识分子而闻名。
And even in the Middle Ages, Paris is famous for its intellectuals.
是的，我看到多米尼克做了个鬼脸。
Yes, I Dominic's pulling a face.
汤姆，那只是我天生的面无表情。
That's just my natural resting face, Tom.
也许我一听到'知识分子'这个词就条件反射了。
Maybe it's a knee jerk thing when I hear the word intellectuals.
你就想拔枪。
You reach for your gun.
是的。
Yeah.
但是学生们纷纷涌向巴黎大学，而且早在那时，因为显然，有学生，你知道，宗教学生，但也有一些思想非常独立的学者和教师，吸引着欧洲的那些年轻头脑，并在左岸建立新的学校，甚至是相当持异议的学校。
But the students the students were flocking to the University of Paris and already, because obviously, there were students, you know, religious students, but already some very independent minded scholars and teachers, attracting those, you know, young minds of Europe, and setting up new schools and quite dissident schools right on the left bank.
那么学生们会去哪里找住处呢？
And where would the students go and find lodgings?
嗯，在左岸，它当时显然不叫左岸，但因为那里更便宜，而且你想，好吧，让·布罗萨特，你知道，你可以……我是说，它始于一千……
Well, on the left bank, it wasn't called the left bank, obviously, But because it was cheaper and you think, okay, well, Jean Brosart, you know, you can you can I mean, it's it started a thousand
我想是从阿伯拉尔开始的，我们做过一期关于十大阉人的节目，阿伯拉尔是不是出现在那期里了？
begins with Abelard, I guess, who who we did an episode on the top 10 eunuchs and Abelard appeared in that?
那么，艾格尼丝，你在什么时候会
And, Agnes, at what point do you
认为城市通常它们的形象是在与其他城市的竞争中塑造出来的。
think so cities often their their image is is sort of created in competition with other cities.
所以伦敦，我们看待伦敦的方式，某种程度上与我们看待巴黎的方式是交织在一起的。
So London, the way we think of London, is is kind of wrapped up with the way we think of Paris.
你知道，巴黎是浪漫的，沿着塞纳河漫步，而伦敦则是务实、讲究实际的，诸如此类。
You know, Paris is romantic and walking along the scene, and and London is businesslike and pragmatic and all this sort of stuff.
你认为巴黎是从什么时候开始注意到伦敦的？
At what point do you think Paris even noticed London?
还是说巴黎是在与罗马、佛兰德斯的某些地方、或其他意大利城市等地方进行对比来定义自己的？
Or was Paris defining itself against, I don't know, Rome or or or places in Flanders or or other Italian cities or whatever?
嗯，这取决于我们谈论的是哪个时期，因为显然罗马的影响很大，但雅典也是。
Well, it depends on, you know, what what period we're talking about, because obviously, you know, Rome loomed heavily, but also Athens.
伙计们，这很有趣，我刚刚做了一个巨大的跳跃，直接跳到了美好年代。
It's interesting guys, I'm just making a, you know, a huge leap to the Belle Epoque.
但巴黎有个区域叫皮加勒，我相信你们都知道，那里有很多俱乐部或咖啡馆，比如被称为新巴比伦、新雅典的那些。
But there's an area of Paris called Pigalle, which I'm sure you know, and a lot of clubs or cafes at the belly pocket were called the New Babylon, the New Athens.
所以伦敦，实际上，你知道，这是一种十九世纪的比较，我认为正是在那时，巴黎，你知道，当所有的革命者、公社社员，以及那些流亡者，基本上，他们会去比利时，去布鲁塞尔，也会去伦敦。
So London, actually, you know, it's a nineteenth century comparison, I think this is when Paris, you know, when all the revolutionaries, the communards, you know, different, the exiles, basically, They would go to Belgium and they would go to Brussels and they would go to London.
也许还有十八世纪的伏尔泰前往伦敦。
Also perhaps the eighteenth century Voltaire going to London.
这可能是伦敦首次被推崇为一种替代选择。
It's maybe the first time that London gets kind of promoted as an alternative.
而且不仅仅是伦敦，你知道，时尚和我们所说的英国狂热可能始于莫洛托夫-伏尔泰。
And not only London, you know, the the fashion and what we call the Anglomania probably started with Molotovoltaire.
因此，我们经历了几波热潮，你知道，那种认为英国的一切都棒极了的时尚潮流。
And so we went through bouts and, you know, fads of of thinking that everything English was fantastic.
但是，我的意思是，回想中世纪，思考巴黎和伦敦之间的关系，伦敦绝对是处于从属地位的。
But but think I mean, going back to the middle ages and thinking the relationship between Paris and London, it London is absolutely subordinate.
是巴黎的时尚潮流决定了伦敦人的穿着。
It's it's the fashions that you get in Paris that determine what people wear in London.
我想这确实令人惊叹。
And I guess that again I mean, it's amazing.
这里有知识分子、令人惊叹的建筑，还有从中世纪一直延续至今的时尚。
You get kind of intellectuals, amazing architecture, and you get fashion right the way from the from the middle ages all the way through.
我想，这大概就是巴黎作为一个神话般的地方所具有的力量，对吧？
And I guess that's that's the power of of of Paris as a kind of mythic place, isn't it?
实际上，这些神话非常非常古老，它们甚至算不上是神话。
That actually these these myths are very, very old, and they're not even myth.
你知道，它们它们它们某种程度上是环境造就的产物。
You know, they they they're kind of bread of circumstance.
但令人惊叹的是，巴黎从中世纪起就在欧洲人的想象中扮演了如此超乎寻常的角色。
But that it's it's it's amazing that, Paris has had this kind of outsized role in the imaginings of Europeans right away from the Middle Ages.
而且我认为我们应该提到法国大革命，因为，你知道，对今天的人们来说，他们对中世纪时期的了解并不像对当代历史那样深入。
And I think we should mention the French Revolution, because, you know, for the people today, you know, there are not so much it's not that they I mean, their knowledge of medieval time is not as great as the, know, contemporary history.
我们想想，关于巴黎有哪些陈词滥调，是五月事件，是大规模抗议，是戴着黑色贝雷帽的学生抗议，你知道，是德里达，是福柯。
And we think, what are the cliches about Paris, it's May events, it's mass protests, student protests with the black Polonnets, you know, it's Derrida, it's Foucault.
但在此之前，真正重要的是法国大革命。
But before that, really, it's the French Revolution.
当我提到巴黎既是一种理念也是一种现实时，你知道，作为一名法国公民，一个巴黎人深受自由、平等、博爱这一座右铭的熏陶，你永远无法从中恢复过来。
And when I said that Paris was an idea as much as a reality, you know, when you're French citizen, a Parisian fed on the, you know, motor, which is liberte de l'etre fraternity, mean, you never recover from, you know, from it.
实际上，这几乎可以说是一种诅咒，真的，因为，你知道，就像日本人的巴黎综合征那样，他们对巴黎有着极其崇高、理想化的想象。
And actually, it's, you know, it's, it's almost a malediction, as we call it, it's almost a curse, really, because, you know, sin, the Paris syndrome for, for the Japanese, you know, they have such an incredible incredible idea of supreme ideal idealist idea of Paris.
当他们抵达巴黎时，显然会感到非常失望。
When they they arrive in Paris, obviously, they are so disappointed.
他们感到身体不适。
They feel they feel sick.
就像多米尼克那样。
Like Dominique.
是的。
Yeah.
而且
And
所以因为你永远无法调和理想与现实。
so because you can never reconcile the idea and the reality.
我真希望那么多人从未踏足巴黎。
And I wish that so many people never set foot in Paris.
因为现实无法与神话相提并论。
Because it's the reality doesn't measure up to to the myth.
我...我...我当时觉得它很棒。
I I I wasn't I I thought it was great.
我
I
哦，我很高兴。
Oh, I'm glad.
它完全符合我的期望。
It met every expectation.
汤姆，你是什么时候去的？
And when did you when did you go, Tom?
你第一次去是什么时候？
When did you first go?
你当时多大年纪？
What old are you?
我第一次去是什么时候？
When did I first go?
我想我那时大概20岁左右。
I must have been about 20, I think.
然后我回到伦敦时，感到无比沮丧，心想巴黎要美得多。
And I I just felt incredibly depressed coming back to London thinking how much more beautiful Paris was.
我确实是的。
I I was yeah.
我为此真的非常沮丧。
I was really depressed about it.
我觉得巴黎太棒了，以至于我看着伦敦，心想，唉。
I I thought Paris was so amazing that I kind of looked at London and thought, oh.
不过，它到底是什么样子的呢？
And what was it though?
是那种十九世纪风格的大道吗？我
Was it the the sort of the boulevard in the nineteenth I
我觉得它在外观上美得令人难以置信。
thought it was incredibly physically beautiful.
是的。
Yeah.
但那只是因为它带来的兴奋感。
But it was just the excitement of it.
那是一种感觉，仿佛我身处许多改变和塑造世界的核心地带。
It was it was this kind of sense that I was at the I was at the kind of the beating heart of so much that had had transformed and changed the world.
那大概是在八十年代，相比之下，我觉得伦敦显得有些破旧。
It was it was kind of in the eighties, and I think London felt a bit shabby in comparison.
确实，伦敦在八十年代非常破旧。
Well, London was very shabby in the eighties.
但是，但那种感觉是，你知道，我走在这条街上，所有那些了不起的人都曾走过这里，而且，你知道，我对陈词滥调有着巨大的胃口，而这个胃口得到了极大的满足。
But but it was the sense that, you know, I'm I'm walking the streets where all these incredible people walked, and it was you know, I have an immense appetite for cliche, and I've the appetite was hugely satisfied.
但确实是的。
But it was yes.
我想，是历史的厚重感。
It was the it was the weight of history, I think.
我的意思是，我们收到了一个关于革命主题的问题，来自凯恩·卡莱尔，他问道，为什么巴黎总是与革命人物联系在一起。
I mean, we've got a question so on the on the theme of revolution, we've got a question here from Cain Carlisle, and he says, wondering why Paris is always linked to revolutionary figures.
想到像马克思、巴枯宁这样的人物，这是怎么回事？
Thinking of figures such as Marx MacKunin what is it?
巴枯宁。
Bakunin.
那个名字怎么发音？
How do you pronounce that?
巴枯宁。
Bakunin.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，要向那些革命思想家的爱好者们致歉。
So apologies to enthusiasts for revolutionary thinkers there.
但是，也包括像阿亚图拉·霍梅尼这样更现代的革命人物。
But, also, more modern revolutionary figures like Ayatollah Khomeini.
为什么这些人总是在那里安营扎寨，难道仅仅是因为法国大革命留下的遗产吗？
Why do these people always set up shop there, assuming it's not only due to legacy of the French revolution?
胡志明曾是一名糕点师。
Ho Chi Minh was a pastry chef.
在我们回到法国革命时期之前，我能说一下吗？我想，对于这个问题，一个答案其实是它发生在革命之前。
Could I could I mean, just just before we we go go back to the French revolutionary period, just to go back a bit, I think because I think one answer to that is that it is actually pre revolutionary.
那么，谁称巴黎为‘知识之母’呢？
So, the parent of learning, who do you think described Paris as the parent of learning?
是马丁·路德，你可能不会把他当成一个法国文化爱好者。
It was Martin Luther who you wouldn't have down as as a Francophile.
巴黎令人惊叹的一点是，耶稣会的创始人依纳爵·罗耀拉，以及新教思想家约翰·加尔文，都曾在同一所学校学习。
And the amazing thing about Paris is that both Ignatius Loyola, the guy who founds the Jesuits, and John Calvin, John Calvin, you know, the great Protestant thinker, both studied at the same school.
所以，即使在16世纪，尽管人们通常认为德国是宗教改革的摇篮，但所有这一切实际上都发生在巴黎。
So the even in the sixteenth century, although you you tend to think of Germany as the kind of the womb of of the reformation, it's all going on in Paris.
当然，还有圣巴托洛缪日街头发生的血腥大屠杀。
And then, of course, you've got the, you know, literal slaughter of the streets with the, the massacre on Saint Bartholomew's day.
所以我认为，即使在16世纪，巴黎就已经给人一种绝对充满思想与道德激荡的氛围，这种氛围我想一直延续了下来。
So I think, you know, even the sixteenth century, you've this sense of Paris as an absolute cauldron of intellectual moral ferment, which I guess kind of percolates through.
要知道，巴黎在十七到十八世纪不仅是时尚之都，也是思想之都，这也就是为什么法国大革命会带来如此巨大的冲击。
You know, Paris is the intellectual capital as well as the fashion capital through the seventeenth through the eighteenth century, which then is why the French Revolution comes as such a shock.
我的意思是，其实这并不应该太令人意外，因为在某种意义上，它早已在酝酿之中。
I mean, it shouldn't really because, in a sense, it's kinda been brewing.
但是，我想问的是，詹姆斯·比米什提出了一个关于巴黎黄金时代的问题。
But, I guess, what when do you I mean, James Beamish had a question about Paris' golden age.
你认为黄金时代是在革命之前吗？
Do you think the Golden Age was before the revolution?
还是你认为它更现代？
Or do you think it's more modern?
嗯，我认为黄金时代，我指的是我在描述十二世纪和十三世纪时想到的那个时期。
Well, I think the Golden Age, I mean, that's what I was describing when you think of the twelfth century and the thirteenth century, really.
因为我们从未见过如此长时间的扩张。
Because we've never seen that expansion for such a long time.
我们会梦想经历一百五十年的扩张发展，涵盖每一个学科领域。
We would dream of living one hundred and fifty years, you know, of expansion development in every single discipline.
是的，从那以后就再也没有那么好了。
Yes, it hasn't been as good ever since.
好吧。
All right.
这真是令人沮丧。
That's very depressing.
我，我认为这是一个很好的节点，可以，可以，可以结束上半场，那就是巴黎的整个历史自十三世纪以来一直处于可悲的衰落中。
I I think that's a great note on which to to to end the first half, that the whole history of Paris has been a sad decline since the thirteenth century.
但或许在下半部分，我们可以探讨一下，我想，更传统意义上被视为巴黎黄金时代的时期，我认为应该是十九世纪左右，并审视其十九世纪和二十世纪的历史，因为那里有太多值得讨论的内容。
But perhaps in the second half, we could look at, I guess, what more traditionally would be seen as the golden age of of Paris, which I guess would be the kind of the nineteenth century, and and look at its nineteenth and twentieth century history because there's so much to talk about there.
那么，我们休息后再见。
So we will, see you back after the break.
我们正在与法国记者、作家、历史学家艾格尼丝·帕里耶谈论巴黎。
We're talking about Paris with the French journalist, writer, historian, Agnes Parrier.
艾格尼丝，现在对于许多盎格鲁-撒克逊听众来说，巴黎的形象是一个不断处于革命中的城市，基本上，人们总是在撬起鹅卵石扔向警察。
And we have so, Agnes, image of Paris to a lot of Anglo Saxon listeners now is a city that's constantly in revolution, But, basically, people are always ripping up cobbles and throwing them at the police.
首先，这种看法合理吗？
First of all, is that justified?
其次，你是否认为在某种程度上，人们只是在不断重演法国大革命以及1789年、1793年、1794年左右的事件？
And secondly, is that do you think is there a sense in which people are just constantly reenacting the French revolution and the events of kind of 1789 and seventeen ninety three, seventeen ninety four?
同样地，巴黎的每一代人几乎都感到有义务向警察扔石头，并且，你知道的，为断头台助威。
Again, every generation in Paris feels a kind of obligation almost to chuck stones at the police and sort of, you know, go it up for the guillotine.
嗯，你说到点子上了。
Well, you nailed it.
作为一个法国人，不经历那个成人仪式是不可能的。
It's impossible to be French and not to go through that rite of passage.
我们情不自禁。
We can't help it.
这很荒谬。
It's ridiculous.
而且当你想到，你知道，自法国大革命以来的最近两百，嗯，四十年。
And when you think of, you know, the last two hundred and, you know, forty years since the French Revolution.
看看英国，英国在这段时间里一直在完善门球这项运动，而法国却经历了十一次政治变革和政权更迭。
Look at Britain, you know, Britain has been perfecting the art of croquet for that amount of time when France was actually going through 11 political changes and regime changes.
我说的是从帝国到第一、第二、第三、第四、第五共和国，再到第二帝国和巴黎公社。
And I'm talking, you know, from the Empire to the first, second, third, fourth, fifth Republic, the Second Empire, the Commune.
我甚至会提到维希政权，但维希政权，你知道，不被认为是法国，至少这是当时的神话。
I would say even Vichy, but Vichy, you know, is not supposedly France, or at least that was the myth.
但这不是巴黎，对吧？
But it's not Paris, is it?
而这正是
And that's the
不，正是如此。
No, exactly.
没错。
Precisely.
但这甚至都不是法国。
But it's not even France.
我的意思是，这非常方便。
I mean, you know, it's very convenient.
我们有一套处理历史的方式，正是这种方式让我们在战后能够彼此和解。
We have a way with history and in a way that's how we could reconcile with each other after the war.
但我们现在知道，我们确实欠下这笔债。
But we now know, I mean, we owed it.
事实上，这还是不久前的事，雅克·希拉克做总统时做的少数几件好事之一。
And it was quite recently, actually, was Jacques Chirac, one of the very few good things he he did as a president.
他承认维希法国也是法国的一部分。
He acknowledged the fact that Vichy France was also France.
是的，所以我们的动荡从未停歇。
And, yes, so it's turmoil all the time.
过去二十年来，我们一直在谈论第六共和国，仿佛它能解决我们所有的问题。
And, you know, we've been talking about a sixth republic for the last twenty years now, as if it was going to solve our problems.
所以，正如你所知，我们依赖分裂而生存。
And so, as you know, we thrive on division.
可以说，我们过度地不守规矩，与警察发生冲突是你必须做的事情。
We are unruly to an excess, I would say, and clashing with the police is what you have to do.
所以总会有你可以参加的示威活动。
And so there's always a demonstration that you can join.
1986年我14岁的时候，当时发生了一些事，我们什么也不懂。
And I was 14 when in '86, there was, we didn't understand a thing.
我当时显然在巴黎，那是大学法的改革时期，我去参加了游行，闻到了催泪瓦斯的味道。
I was obviously in the DC and it was the reform of the university law and I went marching and the smell of tear gas.
实际上，一名学生遇害了。
Actually, a student was killed.
所以我第二天才意识到，这不仅仅是
So I realized the day after that it was not just
一项危险的运动。
a dangerous sport.
是的。
Yes.
大概就是那个时候，我开始意识到抗议活动可能是危险的。
This is when I sort of realized that protest could be dangerous.
而且这一切都极具政治色彩。
And it was all very political.
但关键在于，如果你是一个巴黎人，政治就渗透在你所做的一切事情中，从很小的时候起，我就记不起自己有过不关心政治、不跟着父母去游行的时刻，一直如此。
But the thing is you politics, if you're a Parisian politics in everything you do, and from a very early age, I can't remember not feeling political, not going on the march with my parents and ever since.
我在伦敦读书时也是如此。
I used as a student in London.
我会乘坐欧洲之星去巴黎，在窗边参加游行。
I would go on the Eurostar to go and march at the window in Paris.
哇。
Wow.
这真是投入。
That's commitment.
这确实是投入。
That is commitment.
这不是承诺。
It's not commitment.
这是存在主义的。
It's it's existential.
当然了。
Of course it is.
当然了，你是巴黎人。
Of course it you're Parisian.
当然这是存在主义的。
Of course it's existential.
是的。
Yes.
但这让人精疲力尽。
But it's exhausting.
是的。
Yes.
好的。
Okay.
那么，
Well,
所以，纵观法国大革命历史的广阔画卷，我们已经讲完了法国大革命。
so so looking at the the the broad sweep of of French revolutionary history, we've we've we've done the French revolution.
我们已经处理过那个部分了。
We've we've we've dealt with that already.
我们已经完全解决了那个问题。
We've completely we sorted that out.
这事永远不需要再讨论了，伙计。
It needs never be discussed, mate.
永远不需要再讨论了。
Needs never be discussed again.
我们已经搞定了。
We've we've nailed that.
至于拿破仑，我想我们会在之后的某个时间点来讨论。
And Napoleon, think we're going to do at some later point.
但是，在法国大革命的那期节目里，我提到过我女儿最喜欢的电影是《玛丽·安托瓦内特》。
But could we in the in the episode of the French Revolution, I mentioned how my my daughter's favorite film was Marie Antoinette.
不过后来她们又迷上了另一部电影，当然，就是《悲惨世界》。
But they then moved on to another film, which was, of course, Les Miserables.
不知道你看过没有。
Don't know if you've seen it.
但它涉及革命活动。
But it features, revolutionary activity.
多米尼克，你看过吗？
Dominic, have you seen it?
我看过。
I have.
是的。
Yeah.
我看过。
I have seen it.
好的。
Okay.
《悲惨世界》对革命的描绘有多准确？
How accurate is the portrayal of the revolution in Les Miserables?
但问题是，这是一场非常小规模的革命。
But the thing about it is it's a very minor revolution.
在英国看来这可能算得上是一场大革命，但我觉得《悲惨世界》中的起义实际上并没有成功。
It's what in in England would be considered a a big revolution, but in think the uprising in Les Miserables is actually not a successful revolution.
没错。
That's right.
这大概发生在1820年代左右，对吧？
It's kind of in the eighteen twenties sometime, isn't it?
这是发生在1830年或1848年之前的那种革命吗？
Isn't it a sort of a pre 1830 or pre 1848?
我想不起来了。
I can't remember.
我只是问一下，因为我女儿一直在听这个，所以我希望你能直接给她一个答案。
Well, I'm just asking because my daughter's been listening to this, so I want them I want you to just give them the answer.
那我真是丢脸了。
So I'm humiliating myself.
好吧，你看。
Well, look.
我敢肯定它非常真实。
I'm sure it's incredibly realistic.
这就是我的答案。
That that's my answer.
而且他们都唱歌。
And they all sing.
但但事实上，《悲惨世界》完全符合阿格尼斯所说的那种情况。
But but it's the part of but but, actually, Les Miserables completely and utterly conforms to what Agnes was talking about.
这种
This sort of
那种对法国大革命故事自觉复现的模式，那种挥舞旗帜、设置路障的场景。
pattern of the sort of self conscious reproduction of the story of the French Revolution, the sort of the waving the flag, the barricades.
但你知道它还有什么吗？对我来说，那是我想象中至关重要的一部分，对吧？
But can I tell you what it also has, which for me is a crucial part of my imagine yeah?
它确实有罗素·克劳。
It does have Russell Crowe.
非常出色的歌手。
Great great songster.
但它还有他们在下水道里奔跑的场景。
But what it also has is them running through sewers.
是的。
Yes.
有很多下水道的戏份。
There's a lot of sewers.
有很多下水道。
There's a lot of sewers.
地下墓穴和下水道，它们是我对巴黎想象的关键部分。
Catacombs and sewers, they're a crucial part of of my imagining of Paris.
还有那种感觉，你知道的，犯罪大师和侦探，维道克，那位伟大的警察局长，后来创立了第一家侦探事务所。
And the sense of, you know, master criminals and detectives, Vidoc, the great the great police chief who then sets up the first detective agency.
所以这也是其中的一部分。
So that's also a part of it.
我想，这与巴黎给人的那种感觉有些模糊不清，在巴黎，你永远无法完全确定，你知道，罪犯最终会不会是警察局长，或者反过来？
And I guess that that kind of blurs with the sense that in that in Paris, you're never entirely sure who's you know, will the will the criminal turn out to be the police chief or vice versa?
同样地，你知道，皇帝会不会最终是难民？
And likewise, you know, will the emperor turn out to be the refugee?
存在着一种持续的可能性，即一切都会被彻底颠覆。
Will the there's the constant possibility that everything will be turned on its head.
你是否同意，这某种程度上是巴黎历史的戏剧性和魅力所在？
And I would do you agree that that's kind of part of the drama and the the fascination of of Parisian history?
也许，但或许这也让你产生了存在主义的头痛？
And perhaps but perhaps also, it gives you your existentialist headache?
是的。
Yes.
我同意。
I I would agree.
但你知道吗？
But you know what?
稍微回顾一下我们刚才讨论的，关于法国大革命，它给了我们一个观念——而且不仅仅是观念，因为它自始至终都证明了这一点——即权力在于人民，而非民选代表或政府，这有点奇怪，而且在很多方面完全不符合英国的传统。
Just to go back one second on what we were saying, the thing with the French Revolution, it gave us the idea, and not only the idea, because it proved us right throughout, that the power lays with the people, not with the elected representatives or the government, which is kind of strange, and it's completely un British in many ways.
要知道，在英国，即使有100万人上街游行，那也只是个例，它不会改变政府或首相的决定，因为在英国，权力的合法性在于议会，而议会是由人民授权的。
Know, when in Britain, you have 1,000,000 people marching in the streets, it's anecdotal, you know, it's not going to change anything to the government's or the Prime Minister's decision because in Britain, the legitimacy of the power lies with the parliament was informed by the people.
所以我们知道我们拥有这种力量，通常只需要100万人，如果我们在巴黎街头聚集100万人，我们就能推翻政府的改革或计划。
So we know we have this power, we only need to be 1,000,000, usually if we are 1,000,000 in the streets of Paris, we will overturn the government's reform or plan.
因此，我们手中——或者说脚下——确实掌握着这种不可思议的力量。
So we have this incredible power in our hands or in our feet, really.
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再回到那种地下管道的话题，你知道的，地下墓穴和下水道，这很有趣，因为在1944年，抵抗组织就是从地下墓穴开展行动的。
And to go back on the sort of underground pipes, you know, the cat acombs and the sewers, it's interesting, because the during in 1944, you know, the resistance were operating from the catacombs.
所以地面上是德国人，你知道的，坦克，而就在坦克下方几米处，是二十出头的法国抵抗者和共产主义者，正在酝酿起义。
So you have the Germans, you know, tanks and just a few meters below the tanks, you had the Gaul's men and the communist in their early 20s, fermenting the insurrection.
当然，说到警察，你知道，我们有着如此不同的情况，警察在法国的形象并不太好，因为他们可以，你知道，非常、非常迅速地转变立场。
And, of course, the police, you know, we have such a different that, you know, the police doesn't have a very good image in France, because they can turn you know, very, very quickly.
而且拿破仑创建了当时欧洲最高效的警察系统，这并非巧合。
And it's not a coincidence that Napoleon created the most efficient police in Europe at the time.
有一幅福歇的绝妙肖像，他是拿破仑时期的警察头子，由斯蒂芬·施维克所绘。
There's a fantastic portrait of Foucher, who was the, you know, police head hand show of Napoleon by Stephen Schwyck.
从某种意义上说，这是关于第一位法国警察的最引人注目的书籍。
It's the most remarkable book about, in a way, the first French policeman.
所以，是的，巴黎总有些阴暗面，但同时，也非常、非常迷人。
So yes, there's always something murky Paris and but very, very attractive too.
但关于抗议活动这件事，引出了一个始终笼罩在现代巴黎历史上的问题，那就是巴黎与法国之间的对立。
But the thing about protests raises the issue that's always hung over sort of modern Parisian history, which is Paris versus France.
对许多不了解法国历史的外国人来说，巴黎几乎就等同于法国。
So to a lot of people outside France, people who know nothing of French history, Paris kind of is France.
但显然，在法国的历史叙事中，一直存在着——我们曾在关于法国大革命的播客中谈到旺代地区，以及法国大革命期间那场可怕的血腥屠杀。
But, obviously, within the story of France, there's always been I mean, we talked in our French Revolution podcast about the Vendee and about the, you know, the the the hideous kind of bloodletting in the French Revolution.
而巴黎历史中非常重要的一部分，就是1871年的巴黎公社。
And, obviously, a big part of Paris' history was the commune in, what is it, eighteen seventy, seventy one.
他们输掉了对普鲁士的战争。
They've lost the war against Prussia.
他们建立了一个左翼政权，但法国其他地区却反过来镇压他们。
They set up this sort of left wing regime, and then the rest of France turns on them.
是阿道夫·梯也尔派军队镇压了他们吗？
And is it Adolphe Thier who who sends in the army and crushes them?
这种感觉就是，巴黎与法国是截然不同的存在。
And it's this sense of Paris sort of Paris is something apart from France.
你觉得巴黎……这其实是个愚蠢的问题。
Do you think Paris it's a it's a it's a stupid question, really.
但在某些方面，巴黎是法国，还是它有所不同？
But in some ways, is Paris France, or is it something different?
嗯，如果你是雅各宾派，巴黎显然就是法国。
Well, if you're Jacobine, Paris is France, obviously.
我记得非常傲慢，你知道，我作为一个年轻的法国女人，在九十年代末以学生身份来到英国时非常傲慢，英国朋友们会问，你来自哪里？
And I remember very arrogant you know, I was very arrogant as a young French woman in in Britain in the when I arrived as a student in the late nineties, and people, British friends would say, where do you come from?
我会说，巴黎，还能是哪儿？
And they say, Paris, where else?
这正是我预期一位法国学生会说的话。
That's exactly how I would expect a French student to talk.
因为，你知道，法国大革命塑造了法国，并且在某种程度上也塑造了巴黎，使其变得如此中央集权，因为它原本是零散的。
And because, you know, it's such a centralized the French Revolution made France and, in a way, Paris, what it is so centralized, because it was bits and pieces.
而那是我们能够形成一个统一民族的唯一途径，语言方面也发生了同样的情况。
And that was the only way that we could make one people and the same happened to the to the language.
你知道，今天，那种认为我们可以让布列塔尼语或科西嘉语在法国学校中教授的想法，对于雅各宾派来说，可以说是非常、非常令人震惊的。
You know, today, the idea that we could let Breton or Corsican be a language taught in French school is sort of very, very shocking to Jacobine ears, if you like.
因为这违背了法国作为一个民族、一个国家的理念。
Because it goes against the idea of France as, you know, one people, one nation.
如果你观察欧洲，实际上法国是中央集权程度最高的国家，民族概念在法国依然非常活跃。
And if you look at Europe, it's actually the most centralized that, you know, the concept of nation really is very much alive in France.
所以，回答你的问题，是的，巴黎在很多方面就代表着法国，尽管巴黎公社实际上是巴黎的一次失败，因为巴黎曾试图引领方向、展示道路，不是吗？
And, and so, to answer your question, yes, Paris is France in many ways, even though La Comune is really the failure of Paris, because Paris wanted to lead the way and show the way as as Didn't they
吃了动物园的动物？
eat zoo animals?
哦，是的。
Oh, yes.
我的曾曾姑母在巴黎公社时期吃过老鼠。
My great great aunt ate rats during the Camune.
但不是老虎，或者
But not not a tiger or
不是。
No.
她只提到了老鼠。
She she only mentioned rats.
那是个很小的细节，但我记得很清楚。
That was very small, but I remember that that detail.
天哪。
Goodness.
这真是与历史的一种联系。
That's a link with history.
但是我
But I
我的意思是，那是一个极其血腥的事件，不是吗？
mean, that's an incredibly bloody episode, isn't it?
我是说，那一定给巴黎留下了非常深的创伤。基本上，法国其他地区都转而反对它，很多人因此丧生。
I mean, that must have left a really deep scar on Paris's I mean, basically, the rest of France turns on it and lots of people are killed.
是因为英国脱欧吗？
From Brexit?
是的。
Yes.
但是，我的意思是，你觉得能从那里一直联系到维希政权以及所有那些事情吗？
But, I mean, that must have been do do you think that you can draw a line from that to kind of Vichy and all that sort of stuff?
嗯，这很奇怪，因为当你在法国时，你知道，我当时是个左翼学生，我们被灌输了巴黎公社是法国历史上辉煌篇章的神话。
Well, it's very strange because when you're, you know, in France, and I was a left with left wing student, we were given that myth of La Comerne being that fantastic episode of French history.
而十五年后，深入研究巴黎公社的历史，却发现它在各个方面都是一次巨大的失败。
When fifteen years later, plunged into the history of La Comune, it's just a massive failure on every account.
因此，当时左翼的共和党人之间的分歧是极其严重的。
And the division of the Republicans, therefore of the left wing of the time, was abysmal.
实际上，例如第二共和国，从1848年到1852年，它只持续了四年，但我们至今仍在享受当时通过的社会改革，直到拿破仑三世发动政变，先是成为总统，然后成为皇帝。
And when actually, for instance, the Second Republic, 1848 to 1952, it only lasted for four years, but we're still enjoying many of the social reforms that were passed at the time before Napoleon the third made a coup and became the first the president and then the emperor.
但巴黎公社是一个需要被揭穿的神话，至少在法国是如此，因为我确信你对它了如指掌。
But La Commeine is such a myth that needs to be debunked, at least in France, because I'm sure you know all about it.
但对我们来说，尤其是法国左翼的任何人，他们仍然天真地认为巴黎公社是历史上的完美典范。
But for for us, especially anyone on the left in France, they still think naively that Lecomun was that perfection in history.
你提到了拿破仑三世，我记得好像是在《巴黎圣母院》里你说过，拿破仑三世实际上更喜欢伦敦而不是巴黎，他一生中很多时间都是在伦敦度过的。
You mentioned Napoleon the third, and I think I remember I think it may have been in Notre Dame that you say of Napoleon the third that that actually preferred London to, to Paris, and he spent much of his life in London.
然而，他对巴黎城市面貌的影响，却丝毫不亚于任何一位统治过巴黎的君主。
And yet he had as much influence as as any ruler of of Paris has had on the face of the city.
当然，在那段历史中还有一个关键人物。
And, of course, there there is one key figure in that history.
我们收到了来自thoughtfully Catholic的提问：奥斯曼男爵对巴黎的重建，既便于调动军队又增加了设置路障的难度，这对当时的政权来说是一个幸运的巧合吗？
And we got a question from thoughtfully Catholic who asks, was it a happy coincidence for the regime that Baron Hausmann's reconstruction of Paris made it both easier to move troops and more difficult to construct barricades?
所以这就是人们常说的关于奥斯曼改革的事情。
So that's what what's often said about Hausmann's reforms.
这就是目的。
That's the aim.
但更广泛地说，你认为奥斯曼对巴黎至今的形象和面貌负有多大程度的个人责任？
But just more broadly, to what extent do you think Hausmann is personally responsible for the image and the look of Paris to this day?
他真的像传说中那样是个举足轻重的人物吗？
Is is he as significant a figure as the myth has him?
我认为他是。
I think he is.
是的。
Yes.
因为他在巴黎的重建中投入了大量工作，或者说，他彻底摧毁并破坏了巴黎。
Because of the amount of recreation of Paris, or some would say completely destroyed and disfigured and destructed Paris.
对。
Yes.
你提到的西岱岛，那里曾经人满为患。
Ville De Cite, which you which you mentioned as being full of people.
基本上，就是他清空了那里，对吧？
And basically, he's the guy who who clears it, doesn't he?
完全如此。
Completely.
我的意思是，他本质上是被选中的人。
I mean, basically, he's the man chosen.
他曾是波尔多的行政长官。
He was the prefect of Bordeaux.
而拿破仑三世并不那么喜欢巴黎，正因如此，他才能决定对法国首都进行如此彻底的重新设计，否则他绝不敢做出他所做的一切。
And Napoleon the third, who didn't like Paris so much, and that's why he could decide on such radical redesign of the French capital, otherwise he would have never dared doing what he did.
他选择奥斯曼正是看中了他的效率。
And he chose Hausmann for his efficiency.
他是个工作狂，每天早上六点就到办公室。
He was a workaholic, he would come to his office at 6AM.
而且他也非常有才华。
And he was very talented as well.
关键在于，他将巴黎视为一个需要外科医生治疗的病体。
And the thing is, he saw as this sick body that needed a surgeon.
他对奥斯曼说，听着，我希望巴黎能够呼吸。
And he told Houseman, look, I want Paris to breathe.
我的意思是，他还接手并推动了卫生方面的重大改革，因为巴黎当时饱受霍乱困扰，例如在1832年，有两万巴黎人死于霍乱，疫情四处蔓延，环境非常不卫生。就连西岱岛本身，尽管它是中世纪传奇的瑰宝，自中世纪以来变化不大，但它同时也是卖淫、犯罪和疾病的温床。
I mean, also took him and he did great things in hygiene, terms because Paris was displaced with cholera, for instance, in 1832, twenty thousand Parisians died of cholera, you had pockets of it, I mean it was so insalubrious, and the Igo la Cite even itself, although it was a gem of medieval legends and it hadn't so much changed since the Middle Ages, but it was also a haven of prostitution and criminality and disease.
所以奥斯曼就像外科医生一样进行切割，开辟了那些宽阔的、你知道的、动脉般的道路，巴黎人对此非常满意。
So Hausmann just cut like a surgeon and made those big, you know, arteries where people, Parisians were very happy.
他们拥有了这些宽阔的林荫大道，拥有了这种美丽的城市设计——某种程度上我们至今仍保留着，我是指巴黎的某些区域——他赋予了巴黎我们今天如此珍视的面貌。
They had these huge boulevards, they had this beautiful urban design, which we still have somehow, I mean, in some parts of Paris, and he gave it the look that we so cherish today.
所以你知道，每个巴黎人对奥斯曼的看法都很复杂，因为损失太大了，那么多私人宅邸，你知道的，那些圣日耳曼大道上的瑰宝，在河的两岸，真的。
So you know, every Parisian is into minds about house man, because so much was lost, so many hotel particulates, so you know, gems on the boulevard Saint Germain on both sides of the river, really.
但另一方面，他也打造了这些最古老的林荫大道，配有外观统一的建筑，全都一样，在六楼和七楼有女仆的房间，这种资产阶级风格，但同时，你知道，也有了煤气、电力和自来水。
But on the other hand, he also gave the oldest boulevards with this uniform looking buildings, all the same with their maid's rooms on 6th And 7th Floor, this sort of bourgeois, but also, you know, there was gas and electricity and water.
还有下水道系统。
And the sewers too.
我的意思是，它始于
I mean, they it had started with the
汤姆喜欢下水道。
Tom likes a sewer.
但是，你知道，
But, you know,
每次有国家元首访问巴黎，他们都想参观下水道，因为那是当时非常先进的下水道系统。
each time there was a head of state visiting Paris, they wanted to have a visit of sewers, because it was such, you know, state of art sewers.
所以，他确实是个了不起的人物，但也毁掉了巴黎的许多部分。
So, you know, he was a great guy, and he destroyed a lot of Paris.
那么，你的意思是，这基本上为后来大多数人（法国以外的人）所认为的巴黎黄金时代——美好年代——奠定了基础。
So do you think I mean, basically, that is then what sets the stage for what I guess most people outside France would think of as Paris' golden age, which is the Belle Epoque.
也就是那个巴黎成为世界中心的时代。
And when you know, the era where Paris is the center of the world.
你们有普鲁斯特、毕加索和图卢兹-劳特累克。
You've got Proust and Picasso and Toulouse Lautrec.
我本来想问一个问题，不过，深思熟虑的天主教徒已经问了另一个问题，我认为这是个非常好的问题，因为这是埃米尔·左拉的巴黎，同时也是那种经典的十九世纪、十九世纪末法国小说中的巴黎。
I was gonna ask a question which, well, thoughtfully Catholic has asked another question, which I think is a really good question because this is the Paris of Emile Zola, and it's also it's the it's the Paris of the kind of classic nineteenth century, late nineteenth century French novels.
我的意思是，我学生时代曾有个疯狂的念头，想把左拉的《卢贡-马卡尔家族》系列全部读完，结果彻底失败了。
I mean, I loved when I was a student, I had this mad idea of reading all Zola's Rue Jean Macar sequence and completely, utterly failed.
但你知道，那里描绘的巴黎是十九世纪末的巴黎，我认为这正是铭刻在世界想象中的巴黎形象。
But, you know, that portrait of Paris there is kind of late nineteenth century Paris, that's the one that is enshrined, I think, in the world's imagination.
我觉得这稍微晚一点。
Do you I think it's a bit later.
我觉得这是普鲁斯特和……那个时期的巴黎。
I think it's I think it's the kind of the the the Paris of of Proust and No.
我不知道。
I don't know.
巴黎。
Paris.
我讨厌那种巴黎观光。
I I despise that Paris tour.
我只喜欢十九世纪末的巴黎。
I'm all about the I'm all about the late nineteenth century Paris.
我指的是《黑弥撒》和这类东西所描绘的巴黎。
I'm the Paris of La Sonde Noir and all these sort of
这是大规模的左拉与普鲁斯特的碰撞。
It's a massive Zola Proust punch up.
确实如此。
It is.
左拉会赢得那场对决。
Zola would win that punch.
我是说，左拉，天哪。
I mean, Zola, god.
我可能
I might
必须
have to
就这么说吧。
call it.
我是说，普鲁斯特只会退回到他的房间里，然后
I mean Proust would just retire to his room and
他会的，但他们也会。
He would, but they would.
我是说，那噪音。
I mean The noise.
还有德雷福斯事件，德雷福斯事件。
But also the Dreyfus case the Dreyfus case.
我是说，巴黎当时被这件事搅得天翻地覆，对吧？
I mean, Paris is sort of convulsed by that, isn't it?
阿涅斯？
Agnes?
哦，就像我描述英国脱欧那样，我说它是英国的德雷福斯事件，因为每个家庭在这件事上都分裂了。
Oh, it was you know, the the way I describe Brexit, I say it is the Dreyfus affair of Britain, in the sense that every single family is divided on the subject.
有时候，代际之间甚至都不说话。
And sometimes, you know, generations don't talk to each other.
当然，情况有所不同，但就它如何让人彼此对立这一点来说，我觉得是相似的。
And, of course, it's different, but not in the way it has, you know, set people against each other, I think.
是的，德雷福斯事件是现代法国的一个决定性时刻。
And, yes, the Dreyfus affair is a defining moment of modern France.
所以德雷福斯事件是指这位犹太军官被错误指控为间谍。
So the Dreyfus affair is when this Jewish officer is accused falsely accused of espionage.
他被流放到魔鬼岛。
He's sent off his knee to Devil's Island.
很明显他是被陷害的，这是反犹主义。
And it's clearly that he's he's been framed as anti Semitism.
据称他向德国人传递了秘密，然后这演变成了一场巨大的丑闻，因为他们掩盖了真相，对吧？
He's been supposedly passing secrets to the Germans, and then it turns into this colossal scandal because they cover it up, don't they?
在某种程度上，你难道不能一路追溯下去吗？
And in a way, can you not sort of trace that all the way?
然后左拉派了雅克去。
And Zola sends in Jacques.
是的。
Yeah.
雅克。
Jacques.
没错。
Exactly.
并且因此惹上了大麻烦，以至于他不得不流亡到上诺伍德。
And gets in such trouble that he he has to go into exile in Upper Norwood.
命运西部日。
Fate Western Day.
他还对上诺伍德的糕点质量表示不满，我觉得这不太懂得感恩。
And objects to the quality of the pastry in Upper Norwood, which I don't think is very grateful.
那是真的吗？
Is that really true?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
嗯，我是说，糕点方面，我提到过关于胡志明据说曾在莱斯科菲耶手下受训成为糕点师的事实。
Well, I mean, pastry I've I've mentioned my facts about Ho Chi Minh training under supposedly training under Lescoffier as a pastry chef.
所以糕点显然是
So pastry is obviously
他抱怨说他们把鱼煮过头了，而且糕点根本没法吃。
one of He complained they overboiled the fish, and the pastry was inedible.
嗯，你看，他食物中毒了。
Well, he had food poisoning, you see.
我觉得她对上诺伍德的款待实在没什么感激之情。
Don't think she has much gratitude, really, for the hospitality of Upper Norwood.
但我想接下来我们就进入世界大战时期了，对吧？
But then I guess we're into the world wars, aren't we?
巴黎这座城市，我的意思是，在第一次世界大战中，德国人几乎就要打到那里了，但他们在马恩河被巴黎的出租车司机们拦住了，他们可以说是全体出动，把士兵们送到了前线。
When Paris is a city I mean, so in World War one, the Germans kind of almost get there, but they're stopped on the Marne by the taxi drivers of Paris who kind of, you know, all set off and carried the soldiers to the front.
然后，当然，巴黎在第一次世界大战中几乎沦陷，而在第二次世界大战中确实沦陷了。
And then, of course, Paris almost falls in the First World War, and then it does fall in the Second World War.
但很明显，大家都看过那些照片，德国人好像是骑着马的，对吧？
But, obviously, that everyone's seen those pictures of, a, the the the Germans sort of they're on horseback, aren't they?
他们正沿着香榭丽舍大街骑行。
They're riding down the Champs Elysees.
还有那些著名的照片，人们在街头哭泣。
There's also the famous images of of people sobbing in the streets.
巴黎，这个法国神圣的中心，实际上以一种最屈辱的方式沦陷了。
And the sense in which France Paris, which is this sort of sacred center of France, has fallen actually, you know, in the most humiliating way to
那就是《卡萨布兰卡》所讲述的。
the That's foreign what Casablanca is about.
从某种意义上说，整个《卡萨布兰卡》就是一种哀歌。
The whole of Casablanca, in a sense, is a kind of A lament.
一首为巴黎被占领而唱的哀歌。
A lament for the occupation of Paris.
这很有趣，因为从某种程度上说，巴黎的沦陷再次定义了——没有其他城市比它更具影响力了。
It's interesting because, in a way, the fall of Paris really defined, again, no other city was was more powerful.
而巴黎的沦陷则象征着西方文明的衰落。
And the fall of Paris represented the fall of Western civilization.
没人谈论布鲁塞尔的陷落，对吧？
Nobody talks about the fall of Brussels, do they?
我的意思是，比利时人会谈，但其他人不会。
Mean, well, the Belgians do, but I mean, nobody else does.
还有，同样地，巴黎的解放。
And but also, likewise, the liberation of Paris.
是的。
Yeah.
这就是圣母院再次被提及的原因。
And that's where Notre Dame comes in again.
对。
Yes.
那是纯粹喜悦的时刻，不仅对巴黎人，而且对全世界而言。
That was this moment of pure elation, not only for Parisian, but for the whole world.
这在某种程度上是，你知道的，那些美好的时刻，因为巴黎本不会由盟军解放，因为，你知道，这并不是一个战略要地。
This is in a way, you know, there's, I mean, it's wonderful moments, because Paris was not going to be liberated by the allies, because, know, eyes I know, I mean, it was not a strategic.
是勒克莱尔吗？
Is it Leclerc?
勒克莱尔？
Leclerc?
勒克莱尔？
Leclerc?
所以，基本上，在诺曼底登陆期间，或者像我们在法国所说的D日和登陆行动发生时，美军不会经过巴黎，因为那不具备战略意义，他们需要尽快向东推进。
So basically, at some point, you know, in Normandy, as the invasion, or as we call it in France, you know, D Day and the debarkomise is happening, the American troops are not going to go via Paris because it's not strategic, you know, they have to make their way as fast as possible towards the East.
戴高乐说，各位，我们需要解放巴黎。
De Gaulle says, look, guys, we need to liberate Paris.
因此他与亚历山大进行了一场非常激烈的对话。
And so he has this very heated conversation with Alexander.
当然，自由法国部队当时受美军指挥。
And of course, the free French are under command of the Americans.
我的意思是，他们不能擅自行动，否则将面临军事法庭审判。
I mean, they can't go otherwise they will face, you know, martial court.
但正因为巴黎如此重要，隶属于夏尔·戴高乐指挥的勒克莱尔派出了一支先锋部队，这本可能让他面临军事法庭审判，但他还是派出了先锋部队。
But because it's so important, Leclerc, who is under the command of Chanel de Gaulle, sends a vanguard and he faces really, I mean, it could have been a trial and been martial court, but he sends a vanguard.
与此同时，巴黎的抵抗组织也发起了自己的起义。
And at the same time, the resistance in Paris have launched their own insurrection.
在某些非常危险的时刻，巴黎市民甚至没有食物可吃。
And there's that there are some very dangerous moments when the the Parisians don't have anything to eat.
他们显然，我的意思是，抵抗组织能做的有限，但你
They obviously I mean, the resistance can do what they can, but you
但更要命的是，希特勒已下令巴黎总督彻底炸毁这座城市。
know But also, I mean, adding to the jeopardy is the fact that Hitler has ordered the governor of Paris to basically blow it up.
这纯粹是下令摧毁城市，而不是放弃它。
And it's a it's simply instructions to destroy the city rather than abandon it.
这是一个最扣人心弦、惊心动魄的故事。
It's the most dramatic hair raising narrative.
然后，故事迎来一个美妙的高潮：总督并没有炸毁巴黎。
And and then it has this kind of wonderful climax where the governor doesn't blow up Paris.
盟军与自由法国部队联手占领了巴黎。
The allies join with the free French in capturing it.
海明威喝得酩酊大醉，而戴高乐将军则走进了巴黎圣母院。
Hemingway gets drunk, and General de Gaulle walks into Notre Dame.
再没有人比你更合适来讲述接下来发生的故事了。
And there is no one better to tell us the story of what then happens than you.
继续说。
Go on.
给我们讲一个充满爱国激情的法国故事吧。
Give us a patriotic French thrill.
不过，海明威在里茨酒店喝醉之前，你知道他做了什么吗？
So but Hemingway, you know, before he gets drunk at the Ritz, you know what he does?
他去了莎士比亚书店，向那里的可爱女士们打招呼。
He goes to Shakespeare and Company to say hello to the wonderful ladies there.
他还去拜访了他的朋友巴勃罗·毕加索，但毕加索不在家。
And he also calls on his friend Pablo Picasso, but Pablo is not there.
不过，毕加索的门房问他，'您想留个便条吗？'
And but the concierge of Picasso says, Do you want to leave a note?
于是他回到吉普车上，拿了几颗手榴弹，连同给毕加索的便条一起留了下来。
So he goes back to his Jeep, and he takes, you know, hand grenades, and he leaves a few hand grenades with a note to Picasso.
然后他就去了丽兹酒店。
And then he goes to the Ritz.
好的，现在快进到1944年8月26日。
Okay, now fast forward 08/26/1944.
戴高乐将军已经抵达。
General de Gaulle has arrived.
巴黎街头仍有德国狙击手。
There are still German snipers in the streets of Paris.
我的意思是，那里仍然相当危险，但显然，自由法国的勒克莱尔将军和美军已经进驻了。
I mean, it's still quite a dangerous place, but obviously, Leclerc, the Free French and the Americans have, you know, have moved in.
这就是整个一天是如何被构想的。
And so that's how the whole day is being conceived.
然后，法国电台告诉巴黎和法国人民，戴高乐将军将沿着香榭丽舍大街游行。
And the radio tells the French radio tells Paris and the French that the goal is going to walk down the Champs Elysees.
于是，巴黎街头聚集了200万人，为这位他们从未真正见过的人欢呼。
So, 2,000,000 people in the streets of Paris to acclaim that man they've never seen really.
他们可能看过照片，可能在BBC上听过他的演讲，但从未见过他本人。
They might have seen a picture, might have listened to him on the BBC, but they've never met him.
所以，当他沿着香榭丽舍大街走到协和广场时，那里的人实在是太多了。
So he goes down the Champs Elysees at the Place De La Lecon car, are far too many people.
所以他必须跳上一辆车，这辆车会载着他穿过里沃利街，经过卢浮宫。
So he has to hop on a car that will that drives him through Rue De Rivoli passes the Louvre.
他前往市政厅，在那里检阅了部队、共产主义抵抗组织以及自由法国力量，华盛顿和伦敦的代表，还有所有的电影摄制人员都在场。
He goes to Hotel de Ville, where he inspects the troops and the communist resistance and the free French altogether, and Washington and London, and all the film operators are there.
你知道，华盛顿和伦敦方面正非常热切地观察戴高乐是否真的是那个人选，因为他们还不确定。
And you know, Washington and London are looking very keenly to see whether De Gaulle is really the man because they don't know yet.
以及他能否驯服所有那些难以管束的共产主义抵抗力量，这确实是他们所担心的，尤其是华盛顿方面。
And whether it can tame all those unruly communist resistance, this is really what they are afraid of, especially Washington.
戴高乐毕竟是戴高乐，身为法国人，他说我需要以一场弥撒结束，就在巴黎圣母院举行。
De Gaulle being de Gaulle and being a French man, he says I need to end with a mass, a tedium at Notre Dame.
于是他从市政厅出发，穿过人海，刚经过巴黎圣母院的入口门廊时，教堂内的狙击手就开始射击。
So he walks from the Hotel de Ville, in this sea of people, and he just passes the porch, the entrance of Notre Dame, when snipers within the Cathedral start shooting.
想象一下，大约有一万人一直在等待戴高乐进入，他们坐在长凳上，到处都挤满了人，等待着他们伟大的解放者。
Imagine there are about 10,000 people who have been waiting for the Gault to enter, they've been sitting on the pews everywhere, waiting for their great liberator.
黑人是怎么输的？
How blacks lose?
我们还有这段音频资料，我真的很建议大家去听一听，你可以在网上找到它。
And we have this audio document that I really urge people to listen to, you can, it's accessible online.
有这么一位年轻人，他27岁。
There's this young guy, he's 27.
他的名字叫雷蒙德·马西亚克。
His name is Raymond Marciac.
这是他第一次为法国电台做现场报道。
It's his first live reportage for French radio.
他趴在地上，所有的设备都放在上层画廊。
He's lying on his belly with all his equipment on the upper gallery.
我们听着这一切，他那边传来密集的枪声，子弹在柱子上弹跳。
And we listened to all this and he's so we hear so much fire, and the bullets ricketing on the pillars.
而且，你知道，一片混乱喧嚣。
And, you know, such a brouhaha.
于是他描述着现场，说人们都蹲着躲在柱子后面和长椅下，而戴高乐却昂首阔步，步伐缓慢，子弹就在耳边呼啸而过。
And so he describes the scene, saying that people are just crouching and hiding behind pillars and under the pews and the girl is just walking tall, at a slow pace, bullets are just whizzing.
然后他走上祭坛。
And he goes up the altar.
这很有趣，因为戴高乐在他的回忆录中提到了这一刻，他说，嗯，我必须保持非常镇定，这样人们才不会恐慌，因为我们最不希望看到的就是那座哥特式大教堂里的一万人陷入恐慌。
And it's very funny, because De Gaulle talks about this moment, obviously, his memoirs, and he says, well, I had to be very calm so that people, know, don't panic, because the last thing we needed was a panic of 10,000 people in that Gothic cathedral.
他基本上把弥撒控制在十二分钟内，因为，你知道，外面有很多人受伤，就在广场上。
And he keeps it to twelve minutes, basically, because, you know, there are a lot of people being injured outside, the square foot.
十二分钟的弥撒？
Twelve minute mass?
是的。
Yes.
是在TED上，对吧？
It on the TED, isn't it?
是的，那是一首圣母颂歌。
Yes, it was a magnificat.
你可以在那个音频报道中听到。
And you can hear it in that audio reportage.
这太了不起了。
It's magnificent.
于是他站起来，慢慢地走着。
So he stands up, and he walks slowly.
这非常不寻常，因为他本可能在那里被枪击中。
And it's quite extraordinary because he could have been shot there.
这是一次刺杀企图。
It was an assassination attempt.
他只是对勒克莱尔说了句话，大意是，请帮我清理一下这个地方。
And he just has a word with Leclerc and says, you know, clean up the place for me, please.
但直到今天，我们仍不知道那些狙击手是谁，他们是德国人、合作者，还是可能是共产党人，因为共产党确实不希望戴高乐成为法国领导人，这位法国的新领袖。
But to this day, we don't know who those snipers were, whether they were German, collaborator, or perhaps communist, because the communist really didn't want really de Gaulle as the French leaders, the French the French new leader.
但幸运的是，戴高乐成功驯服了共产党人。
But luckily, De Gaulle managed to tame the communists.
那么战后，你认为那是法国巴黎的最后一个黄金时代吗？就是左岸和存在主义者兴起的时代，一直持续到，嗯，1968年左右？
And then after the war, do you think that was France France Paris' do you think that was Paris' last kind of golden age, the age of the left bank and existentialists going up to, I don't know, 1968?
那可以说是巴黎在国际舞台上最后的辉煌时刻了。
And that was the kind of Paris' last moment in the sun, as it were, internationally.
哦，是的。
Oh, yes.
我也这么认为。
I think so.
嗯，首先，因为当时每个人仍然能阅读或理解法语。
Well, first of all, because everybody still at the time could read French or understand French.
所以这意味着他们不需要通过翻译来阅读，或者他们已经被翻译了。
So it means that they didn't need to be read in translation or they were translated.
而如今，当法国知识分子发言时，你听不懂，你也不读他们的作品，因为他们没有被翻译。
Whereas today, you don't don't understand French intellectuals when they when they speak, and you don't read them because they don't they are not translated.
但话虽如此，我不确定这是否属实，因为我认为巴黎知识分子的影响力依然极其强大。
But having said that, I I'm not sure that's true because I think that the influence of of, Paris intellectuals remains incredibly strong.
我的意思是，至少在美国是这样。
I mean, certainly in America.
但福柯是在五十年代。
Foucault it was in the fifties, though.
我觉得更是如此。
Think think more so.
我认为福柯和德里达的影响力
I think I think the influence of Foucault and Derrida
但那只是在大学里，汤姆。
is But that's only in universities, though, Tom.
是的。
Yeah.
只是在大学里，但我们讨论过文化战争，而且我们看到，你知道，这种影响会向外扩散。
Only in universities, but we've discussed culture wars, and we've seen, you know, this reverberates outwards.
讽刺的是
And the irony is
你可以买到阿尔贝·加缪的海报。
posters you can buy posters of Albert Camus.
你没人能买，你买不到
You no one can buy you can't buy a
一张海报
poster of
雅克·德里达的。
Jacques Derrida.
他安全地去世了。
He's safe and dead.
而福柯和德里达的情况不同，我的意思是，现在巴黎人抱怨的正是他们对美国的影响。
Whereas whereas Foucault and and Derrida, I mean, essentially, it's their influence on America that people in Paris are now complaining about.
你说得对。
You're right.
你知道，这正是其中的悖论。
You know, that's the the paradox of it.
而且我们今天会说，这是因为那些美国学生根本没理解德里达和福柯的理论，因为解构并不意味着摧毁，也不意味着安慰。
And and we would say today that it's because the all those American students didn't understand a thing, the data and Foucault, because, I mean, because deconstruction doesn't mean demolition, and doesn't mean consolation.
所以这里在翻译过程中丢失了一些东西。
And so something was lost in translation here.
但没错，今天我们正承受着美国学生对法国思想家的严重误读带来的后果。
But yes, we're suffering today of the terrible misinterpretation of the French thinkers by American students.
但我觉得这是另一个播客的话题了。
But I think that's another podcast.
Le Blobac。
Le Blobac.
好吧，我想说到这里，艾格尼丝，我真是感激不尽。
Well, I think on that note, Agnes, I can't thank you enough.
这次关于这座伟大城市历史的快速巡礼。
That whistle stop tour through the history of of the great city.
非常感谢你。
Thank you so much.
不过，汤姆，我们还没说清楚街上小便的问题呢。
We never cleared up the urinating in the streets, though, Tom.
我想那是另一个播客的话题了，对吧？
I think that's another podcast, isn't it?
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Right.
我们应该，是的。
We should yeah.
谢谢。
Merci.
非常感谢。
Merci, beaucoup.
大家再见。
Bye, everybody.
我们下次见。
We'll see you next time.
感谢收听《余下皆是历史》。
Thanks for listening to the rest is history.
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网址是 restishistorypod.com。
That's restishistorypod.com.
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