58. 神之世界杯 - 第一部分

这段时间里，我们对这些都更了解了。

We all know more about this in the meantime.

我不知道我为什么还在说这些。

I don't know why I'm even talking.

嗯，因anna是乌鲁克的守护女神，而乌鲁克是人类最早的城市之一，也许是最早的城市。

Well, she so so Inanna is the goddess of the patron goddess of of Uruk, which is one of the very earliest cities, perhaps the earliest city.

随后，她成为阿卡德的萨尔贡的守护神，萨尔贡通常被认为是第一位帝国主义者，第一位建立帝国的人。

She then becomes the patron of of Sargon of Akkad, who is kind of conventionally thought of as the first imperialist, the first man to carve out an empire.

他有一个类似摩西与蒲草箱的故事。

And he has a a kind of Moses and the bulrushes story.

所以，他像摩西一样被遗弃，然后被救起，当过园丁。

So he gets, you know, rather like Moses as he gets cast out, gets rescued, works as a gardener.

这很正常。

As you do.

这很正常。

As you do.

然后伊什塔尔爱上了他，并将他提升为世界上最伟大的国王。

And then the Ishtar falls in love with him and raises him up to become the greatest king in the world.

因此，这也奠定了她的声誉。

And so that's kind of basically makes her reputation as well.

她的崇拜一直延续到亚述时期。

And and the worship of her goes right the way through to Assyria.

她是亚述国王和巴比伦国王的伟大庇护神。

She's a great kind of patron of the Assyrian kings and patron of the Babylonian kings.

我们之前谈过奇皮是丰收和齐茨之神。

And, again, we, you know, we talked about Chippy being the the god of the harvest and of Zitz.

同样地，伊什塔尔也是一位战神。

In a rather similar way, Ishtar is a a war goddess.

所以是的。

So in Yeah.

作为亚述——这个令人恐惧的军事帝国的庇护神，她扮演着这样的角色，但她同时也是爱神。

That's the role that she plays as the patron of Assyria, this terrifying militaristic empire, but she's also the goddess of love.

这很有趣，不是吗？对于这些神祇来说，它们的意义显然会随时间变化，但它们会承担不同的角色，对吧？

That's an interesting thing, isn't it, with a lot of these gods that they're they obviously, their meaning changes over time, but they they take on different roles, don't they?

我的意思是，我们后来在希腊的神祇身上也看到类似情况，它们几乎像是帝国主义者本身，逐渐吞并和扩张领土。

I mean, we see this much later on with the Greek gods and goddesses that they they sort of almost they're almost imperialists in themselves, and they sort of accumulate territory.

吸收各种东西。

Absorb stuff.

是的。

Yeah.

确实如此。

They do.

它们确实如此。

They yeah.

因此，伊什塔尔是爱之女神。

And so and so Ishtar is the goddess of love.

她对乌鲁克施加了一种情欲的魔力。

She she kind of casts this erotic spell over Uruk.

所以乌鲁克被描绘为，我认为，实际上是第一个承担起城市自古以来角色的都市，那就是作为人们前来体验性爱的地方，而这种体验在村庄或田野中是难以实现的。

So Uruk is cast as I suppose, really, it's the first it's the first metropolis to serve the role that cities have have have always played since, which is as a as a place where people come to experience, the the erotic in the way that they might not do in villages or out in fields.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，伊什塔尔的追随者们又带来了一层神话的迷雾，学者们对此争论不休，不确定这是否真实存在。

And so, again, what the followers of Ishtar, you get this kind of haze of myth that scholars debate whether whether it's real or not.

但长期以来，人们一直相信伊什塔尔是神圣性交易的守护神。

But there's for a long time, it's believed that Ishtar was the patroness of sacred prostitution.

我认为现在普遍不认为这种事真的发生过。

I think it's not now not widely thought that that happened.

但你也会听说她的祭司是跨性别男性，与男性同寝，还有许多关于街头发生性行为的记载。

But you also get her her priests are cross dressing men sleeping with men, all this kind of stuff, reports of copulation in the streets.

你觉得这些是夸大其词吗？

And are these exaggerated, do you think?

还是说它们是真实的？

Or are they they real?

我不知道。

I don't know.

但她的崇拜中似乎有一种淡淡的、类似骄傲游行的氛围。

But there's a kind of sense of a kind of slight, you know, gay pride parade quality to her her worship.

对。

Right.

我认为，性规范与我们的完全不同。

Which I think is I mean, you know, the sexual standards are completely different to ours.

是的。

Yeah.

但与此同时，显然你可以超越常规界限——如果你是男性，你可以穿女装，或者……

But at the same time, the sense that you can obviously go beyond the the bounds of the normal, and if you're a man, you can dress as a woman or Yeah.

与另一个男人发生关系，或做任何事，都会得到伊什塔尔的许可。

Sleep with another man or whatever, is given license by by Ishtar.

而这正是她力量的核心所在。

And that's the kind of the locus of her power.

她并不是唯一一个这样做的神。

She's not the only god that does that.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，我们还会谈到一些其他的神。

I mean, we're gonna come about some gods too.

还有一些其他的。

Some more as well.

总会有那么一位神，给予人们一种许可。

So there's there's always a role of a god who's a kind of who gives you a license.

你知道，当你与这位神产生关联，或者当他们举行节日时，所有的传统规则都会被暂停，你可以尽情放纵，做任何你想做的事。

You know, when you associate yourself with this god or when you they have a festival or something, all the traditional rules are suspended, you can kind of crack on and do whatever you like.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

而这正是乐趣的一部分。

And and and that's that's all part of the fun.

伊什塔尔是一位挑战界限的女神。

And Ishtar is a goddess who pushes at the limits.

因此有一个广为流传的故事，多次被讲述，包括在著名的史诗《吉尔伽美什》中。

So there's a kind of famous story that gets told several times, including in in Gilgamesh, the famous epic.

但这个故事的核心是，她有一个妹妹，是冥界的女神。

But the the core of the story is is that, she has a sister who's the the goddess of the dead.

对。

Right.

伊什塔尔下去，本质上是因为她想——你刚才谈到神如何侵占领域。

And Ishtar goes down essentially because she wants to you know, you're talking about how gods annex things.

伊什塔尔基本上想接管冥界，就像她掌控生者的世界一样。

Ishtar basically wants to kind of take over the realm of the dead as well as the the realm of the living.

她穿过七道门，每过一道门，就会脱下一些珠宝、衣物，也就是她权力的象征。

And she goes through seven gates, and at each gate, she discards, you know, some jewelry, clothing, attributes of her power.

她最终赤身裸体、毫无力量，被击倒致死。

She ends up basically naked and powerless and is struck down dead.

地球上所有人都失去了性欲。

Everybody on Earth loses their libido.

这简直像一种反伟哥。

So it's a kind of anti Viagra.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

没人能行了。

Nobody nobody can perform.

智慧之神恩基创造了这些性别流动的救援者，他们下到冥界把她救了回来。

Enki, the the the wise god, creates these kind of gender fluid rescuers who go down and and bring her back.

她回来了。

She comes back.

她发现所有人都在哭泣，只有她的丈夫杜姆齐德例外，杜姆齐德是谁？

She finds everyone is weeping except for her husband, Dumuzid, who Dumuzid?

他正悠闲地在花园里闲逛，根本不在乎。

He's he's kind of hanging out in the garden, and he doesn't really care.

所以伊什塔尔对此非常愤怒，杀死了他，把他送入冥界代替自己，但后来又后悔了，试图把他救回来。

So Ishtar's incredibly cross about that, kills him, sends him down to the underworld in her place, regrets it, tries to get him back.

这就像珀耳塞福涅的故事，他每年有六个月回来与她团聚。

And there's a kind of Persephone story whereby he comes back for six months to to be with her.

很有趣。

Interesting.

是的。

Yeah.

这又是这些神話故事中反复出现的一个主题，对吧？

And That's another theme that comes up again and again in these god stories, isn't it?

死亡与重生，或者生育能力——这显然与季节变化等息息相关，不是吗？

Death and rebirth or the fertility and and sort of I mean, that's obviously associated with the seasons and all that sort of thing, isn't it?

是的。

Yeah.

关于伊什塔尔，最后还有一件事：尽管在基督教和伊斯兰教时期的近东地区，她的崇拜逐渐衰落，但她有一个名叫沙玛什的兄弟，是太阳神。

And and one last thing on on Ishtar is that although her worship fades away in in the Christian and the Muslim period in the Near East, She has a brother called Shamash, who is the god of the sun.

我曾去过伊拉克北部的一个叫拉利什的地方，是的。

And I went to a place called Lalish in Northern Iraq, which is Yeah.

那里对雅兹迪人来说是神圣的。

Holy to the Yazidis.

他们是一种宗教少数群体。

It's kind of religious minority.

这是一种非常融合的信仰，融合了犹太教、伊斯兰教、基督教和琐罗亚斯德教的元素。

And it's a very syncretic faith, the kind of elements of Judaism and Islam Christianity and Zoroastrianism, all kind of there.

但他们有一个房间，一个供奉一位名叫谢赫·沙姆兹的圣人的圣室，他与太阳在某种程度上有关联。

But they have a a a room, a chamber that is sacred to a a holy man called Sheikh Shamz, and he is is in some way associated with the sun.

因此，一些学者认为，这可能是沙玛什的活态延续，进而与伊什塔尔相关，因为沙玛什是伊什塔尔的兄弟。

And so there are scholars who think that this might be a living link to Shamash and therefore to Ishtar because Shamash is the brother of Ishtar.

所以我认为这并不能排除伊什塔尔，因为我们讨论的是沙马什，而不是伊什塔尔。

So it's so I don't think that disqualifies Ishtar because we're talking about Shamash rather than Ishtar.

但你知道，或许确实存在

But but, you know, there is this perhaps

有些元素仍然存活下来。

There are elements that are still alive.

在伊拉克北部，这些元素依然存在，这相当美妙。

Elements still there in Northern Iraq, which is kind of wonderful.

西蒙娜·德·波伏娃是伊什塔尔的忠实粉丝。

Simone de Beauvoir was a big fan of Ishtar.

在《第二性》中，她说伊什塔尔被父权制男性从历史中抹去了，女性主义者应当推崇伊什塔尔。

In the second sex, she says that Ishtar has been written out of history by patriarchal men and that feminists should champion Isdra.

她的观点得到了米特拉神的例证支持。

And it's her case is proven by the fact that Mithras

我的意思是，我想说

Well, I mean, gonna say

罗马士兵的黄金战胜了她。

gold of the Roman soldiery beat her.

这是一种典型的父权手段。

It's a classic patriarchal maneuver.

我觉得说到这里，我们该休息一下了，对吧？

And I think on that note, should we should go for a break, shouldn't we?

我们确实应该休息一下。

We probably should actually.

我觉得我们说得太多了，汤姆。

We're we're I think we're talking too much, Tom.

是的。

Yes.

但休息回来后，我们会少说点，更快地推进我们的众神话题。

But when we come back after the break, we'll talk less, and we'll move more quickly through our gods.

一会儿见。

See you in a minute.

本集由费olio出版社赞助播出，这里是读书会的Tabby和Dominic，来自Goal Hanger的最新节目。

This episode is brought to you by the Folio Society, and it's Tabby and Dominic here from the book club, goal hanger's latest show.

现在，Tabby，你知道，有些书你只读一遍，但还有一些书你特别会反复阅读。

Now, Tabby, as you know, there are some books that you read once, but there are others you especially return to again and again.

而这类书，它们确实值得长久保存，不是吗？

And those second kind of books, they really deserve to last, don't they?

这正是Folio出版社所做的。

That's what the Folio Society does.

他们是一家总部位于伦敦的独立员工所有制出版社。

They are an independent employee owned publisher based in London.

每一本书都配有特别委托创作的精美插图和特别撰写的导言，将故事置于其历史背景中。

Every book is produced with specially commissioned beautiful artwork and specially commissioned introduction that puts the story in its context.

Folio出版社出版了我们热爱的书籍，从勃朗特到狄更斯，从玛格丽特·阿特伍德到汤姆·霍兰德。

Folio Society publishes the books we love, from Bronte to Dickens, from Margaret Atwood to Tom Holland.

这些书本身就能让人感受到艺术品的气质。

The books can feel like works of art in their own right.

它们以文本为核心，围绕那些经久不衰的故事，打造经久不衰的书籍。

They're built around the text, the stories that last in books that are made to last.

如果一个故事重要，就该好好保存它。

If a story matters, keep it properly.

前往 foliosociety.com 的书友会了解更多。

Find it at foliosociety.com the book club.

网址是 foliosociety.com/thebookclub。

That's foliosociety.com/thebookclub.

欢迎回到《历史其余部分》。

Welcome back to The Rest is History.

汤姆·荷兰德和我正在讨论众神世界杯。

Tom Holland and I are discussing the World Cup of Gods.

我们已经谈过了莫洛克、齐布特奥克和伊什塔尔，现在汤姆，布里吉特。

We've talked about Moloch, Chibi Totec, and Ishtar, and now Tom, Bridget.

布里吉特是一个有争议的选择。

So Bridget was a controversial choice.

爱尔兰人有些人会说，她算不上神。

Irish, some would say not a god.

解释一下。

Explain yourself.

好的。

Okay.

布里吉特通常被视为一个从神转变为圣人的例子。

So Bridget is generally held up as an example of a god who becomes a saint.

也就是基尔代尔的圣布里吉特，爱尔兰传统中最重要的圣人之一。

So Saint Bridget of Kildare, one of the great the great saints of the Irish tradition.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，人们一直争论布里吉特圣人是否真实存在，以及当天主教徒向圣布里吉特表达敬意时，他们实际上是否在敬拜一位异教神祇。

And so people have debated whether Bridget Saint Bridget existed and essentially whether when Catholics pay their respects to Saint Bridget, they're actually paying respect to a pagan god.

而且这种情况在早期基督教中很常见，他们吸收了当地的崇拜体系，可以说是一种品牌接管式的策略。

And Because this happened a lot in early Christianity, that they absorbed local cults and stuff as a sort of well, as a sort of, you know, branding takeover kind of thing.

嗯，自休谟时代以来，这种对天主教圣人崇拜的指控就一直很流行，休谟正是提出了这一点。

Well, that's that's that's been a kind of popular accusation against the Catholic cult of saints since at least the time of Hume, who makes exactly that point.

至于布里吉特曾是神明的证据，确实存在一位名叫布里甘提尔的约克郡女神。

And the evidence for for Bridget having been a god, there are, so there's a god the goddess of Yorkshire, Brigantier.

我们知道她在英国曾受到崇拜。

So we know that she's worshiped in in Britain.

在邓弗里斯发现了一座雕塑，上面刻有铭文，称她为布里甘提尔。

There's a a sculpture found in in Dumfries with an inscription saying that she's called Brigantier.

因此，人们普遍认为布里甘提尔和布里吉特名字相似，可能是同一个人。

And so, it's been popularly thought that Brigantier and and Bridget, you know, similar names, maybe the same person.

此外，在九世纪的爱尔兰，有一部名为《科尔马克注释》的文献，提到布里吉特是一位女神，她是爱尔兰众神体系中的一员，而这些神祇到九世纪时已逐渐淡出。

And, also, there is, in the ninth century in Ireland, there is Cormac's glossary, it's called, refers to Bridget being a goddess, and she's part of this kind of pantheon of the Irish gods that, you know, have faded by the ninth century.

她是一位

And she's

因此，这就是人们产生这种想法的依据。

a so so that's the basis for thinking that.

她还是诗人，是治疗者，还是诗人。

And she's a poet, she's a healer, and she's a Poet.

是这样吗？

Is that right?

没错。

That's right.

三位一体的神。

Tripartite god.

这正是

That's that's what

哦，女神。

Oh, goddess.

这就是

That's what

科马克词典里说的。

Cormac's glossary says.

是的。

Yeah.

但还有一种不同的看法，那就是实际上，关于圣布里吉特的证据，比曾经存在一位名叫布里吉特的女神的证据要充分得多。

But there is an alternative way of seeing it, which is to say that actually, the evidence for for Saint Bridget is much better than there having been, a goddess called Bridget.

也许，实际情况恰恰相反。

And that perhaps, actually, it's the other way around.

也许是一位圣人逐渐演变成了女神，以至于人们，尤其是爱尔兰编年史家，开始认为这位女神早已存在。

That perhaps you have a a saint who mutates into a goddess so that people come to think that that, you know, Irish chroniclers come to think that this goddess had existed.

支持这种观点的理由出自一位名叫丽莎·巴特尔的学者所写的一篇非常有趣的论文，你可以在网上阅读到。

And the reason for thinking this is put forward in a a very interesting paper by a scholar called Lisa Battelle, and you can read it online.

所以这篇论文是公开的，非常值得一读。

So it's it's available, well worth reading.

她的论点是，基尔代尔的布里吉特确实存在，她被认为行过各种奇迹，出身极为卑微。

And her argument is that Bridget of Kildare did exist, that she performed all kinds was believed to have performed all kinds of miracles, that she came from a very humble background.

她是奴隶的女儿，却最终成为一位极具影响力的人物——修道院院长、修道院长们的挚友、国王们的庇护者。

She was the daughter of a slave, and yet she ends up a very powerful figure that kinda, you know, an abbess, the friend of of abbots, patron of kings.

因此，在如何展现她的力量方面存在一个挑战。

And so there is a a challenge in working out how to portray her power.

是的。

Yeah.

有一些非常美妙的故事讲述她：她把斗篷挂在阳光上，把水变成了啤酒。

So there are stories that kind of wonderful stories that are told of her that she she hung her cloak on a sunbeam, that she turned water into beer.

我的意思是，太精彩了。

I mean, brilliant stuff.

你能理解为什么她在爱尔兰如此受欢迎。

And you can see why she's, you know, kind of popular in Ireland.

一束阳光。

A sunbeam.

是的。

Yeah.

这是一个美妙的细节。

It's a wonderful detail.

但通往这一过程的时期，是女性没有权力的时代。

But the way to this is a period where women do not have power.

是的。

Yeah.

而女性行使权力的唯一例子，是在超自然的维度中。

And the only example of women exercising power is in the dimension of the supernatural.

因此，圣布里吉特逐渐与神祇的特质联系在一起。

And so bridge Saint Bridget comes to be associated with the attributes of of gods.

所以她对土地、动物、大地、太阳和雨水所行使的权力，这些都源自于逐渐消退的异教传统。

So the power that she exercises over the landscape, over the animals, over the earth and the sun and the rain, these are powers that kind of derive from the fading pagan traditions.

所以她同时是一位圣人，也带有异教色彩。

So she's a saint at the same time as there are pagan.

因此，爱尔兰尚未完全基督教化。

So Ireland is not yet fully Christianized.

这基本上就是你的论点吗？

Is that basically the argument that

是的

Yeah.

她吸收了与女神相关的元素，因为这是基督教作家表达这位女性力量的唯一方式。

And and she absorbs elements that are associated with goddesses because these are the only way that Christian writers can express the power of this woman.

否则，女性拥有精神力量这一想法太过奇特，根本无法以其他方式展现。

Because otherwise, the idea that a woman could have power, spiritual power, is so strange that there is no other way of of of demonstrating it.

所以我认为这是一个非常有趣的故事。

So I think that that's a fascinating story.

这是一个好故事，但并没有让推特上的那些人信服。

It's a good story, but it wasn't convincing to the to the Twitter arty.

不。

No.

确实没有。

It wasn't.

不。

No.

因为她面对的是阿波罗，而阿波罗可是希腊众神中的主神。

Because she performed very I mean, was up against Apollo, and Apollo is kind of the Greek god's Greek god.

但即便如此，她的表现还是很差，对吧？

But even so, she performed quite poorly, didn't she?

我以为，我的意思是，她甚至拿到百分之三十的票数了吗？

I thought I mean, she did she even get 30% of the vote?

我觉得她没拿到。

I don't think she did.

没有。

No.

哦，汤姆。

Oh, Tom.

没有。

No.

汤姆。

Tom.

太丢人了。

So so ashamed.

所以她被淘汰了。

So she got knocked out.

但我认为，我的意思是，这真是个有趣的故事，不是吗？

But I think but I thought I mean, that's an interesting story, isn't it?

这确实是个有趣的故事。

It is an interesting story.

这确实是一个，而且你选择她的时候说过会有一个有趣的故事，现在果然出现了。

It is a and you claimed when you selected her that there would be an interesting story, and there has been.

所以即使没人投票给她，你也被证明是对的。

So you've been vindicated even if no one voted for it.

好吧。

Alright.

接下来是谁？

Who have got up next?

我们选了奥古斯都。

We got Augustus.

奥古斯都·凯撒。

Augustus Caesar.

这个人物很有趣，因为他明显是个男性。

Now this is an interesting one because he quite patently is a man.

我的意思是，确实如此，而且我们希望做一期完整的播客，专门讲奥古斯都，因为我认为他无疑是人类历史上最重要、最有效、最有影响力的两三位政治领袖之一。

I mean, there's and, yes, and and we are gonna do a whole podcast, I hope, on Augustus because I think he's clearly one of the two or three, you know, most important, most effective, most influential political leaders in human history.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，他是欧洲历史上最伟大的。

The most in European history, I would say.

在欧洲历史上最伟大的。

The most in European history.

对。

Yeah.

我确信这很可能属实。

I'm sure that's probably true.

我的意思是，实际上很难想到有谁可能与他相提并论。

I mean, it's hard to think of anyone who would conceivably rival him, actually.

但他在什么时候被神化了？

But so at what point is he deified?

他是在死后被神化的。

He's deified after his death.

对吧？

Right?

他生前并没有被完全神化。

He's not deified at the in his lifetime or not fully deified.

是这样吗？

Is that right?

嗯，他在罗马以外的地方被当作神来崇拜。

Well, he's worshipped as a god outside Rome.

但他确实有他的统治。

But then he has he has his rule.

我想是的。

I suppose.

毫无疑问。

No doubt.

是的。

Yeah.

所以在公元14年，他去世了。

So in a in AD fourteen, he dies.

他的遗体被运回罗马，他们举办了一场极其壮观的仪式，有火焰，简直就像一场盛大的表演。

His his body is taken back to Rome, and they stage this incredible kind of parotechnical extravaganza with flames and, I mean, equivalent to fight.

别。

Don't

所以对于不了解的人来说

have So so for people who don't know

你拥有的。

that you have.

他是屋大维。

He is Octavian.

他是尤利乌斯·凯撒的养子。

He is the adopted heir of Julius Caesar.

他是神。

He god.

是的。

Yeah.

曾经被神化的人。

Who was had been deified.

所以他拥有的其中一个名字，他成为了其中之一，你知道，这不是一个头衔。

And so one of the names he has, he he he becomes he's one of his, you know this isn't a title.

这是他的名字。

It's his name.

他是神的儿子。

It's son of a god.

是的。

Yeah.

他击败了马克·安东尼和克利奥帕特拉。

So he's defeated Mark Antony in Cleopatra.

他成为了罗马的第一位皇帝，并建立了这一新体制。

He's become the first emperor of Rome and created this new structure.

然后他被神化了，这延续了尤利乌斯·凯撒的传统，并将这一做法传给了所有后续的皇帝。

And then he's deified, and that that sort of he's picking up that tradition from Julius Caesar, but then he's passing that on to all subsequent emperors.

他们都被神化了，不是吗？

That they're all deified, aren't they?

除非他们被驱逐出……

Unless they're sort of driven out in

不。

No.

好的。

Alright.

明白了。

Okay.

他们不是。

They're not.

他们不是。

They're not.

所以提比略的儿子也不是。

So Tiberius' son isn't.

卡利古拉显然不是。

Caligula obviously isn't.

克劳狄乌斯是。

Claudius is.

尼禄不是。

Nero isn't.

所以这基本上取决于你是否够格，你知道的，是否达标。

And and so it basically depends whether, you know, whether whether you measure up or not.

但如果你是一位成功的皇帝，你就会被神化。

But but if you're a successful emperor, you're deified then.

这么说吧。

Put put it that way.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yes.

但奥古斯都堪称伟大皇帝的典范，因此也是被神化的皇帝的典范。

But but but Augustus is the kind of the archetype of the great emperor and therefore the archetype of an emperor who becomes deified.

所以他的名字‘奥古斯都’本身，就意味着一个人处于天地之间。

So his very name Augustus, essentially, it it signifies someone who's midway between earth and heaven.

因此，从他作为超自然、超越凡人的存在这一观念，自尤利乌斯·凯撒被神化之时就已存在——因为奥古斯都是他的养子，在罗马人看来，这使他成为凯撒的儿子。

So the the the sense that he is a supernatural figure, a more than divine a more than human figure is there right the way from the time actually, I mean, basically, from the moment that Julius Caesar is deified because Augustus is his adopted son and that therefore, in the opinion of the Romans, is his son.

他身上有一种神圣的气质。

He has this quality of divine about him.

奥古斯都这个名字赋予了他更进一步的特质。

The name Augustus gives him a further quality.

在他生命的最后一年，你知道，他开始生病，但周围却出现了各种预兆和传言，表明他将升入天堂。

And by the the the final year of his life, you know, he's starting to fall ill, but there are all these kind of portents, rumors around him showing that he's going to go to the heavens.

在他葬礼上，一位参议员说他亲眼看到奥古斯都的灵魂升向天空，这就足够了。

And when he at his funeral, a senator says that he has seen his spirit rising up to the sky, and that's enough.

于是，他被奉为神明。

So he gets enshrined as a god.

在公元一世纪，这是传播速度最快、范围最广的崇拜。

And in the the the the first century AD, this is, by miles, the fastest spreading cult.

这可能是历史上传播速度最快、覆盖范围最广的崇拜，因为在整个罗马帝国，这种崇拜都被广泛建立起来。

It's it's probably the fastest spreading cult across a broader range that the history had ever seen because everywhere in the Roman Empire, this cult is being instituted.

不过，汤姆，这件事最令人着迷的地方在于，我认为它比其他任何竞争者的故事都更引人深思——因为在二十一世纪，我们认为凡人与不朽是两个完全不同的类别，对吧？

And what's so fascinating about this, though, Tom, and what I think makes this, in some ways, a more a more fascinating story than almost any other of the contenders is that it makes us rethink you know, in the sort of twenty first century, we think of mortal and immortal as two completely separate categories, don't we?

自然与超自然，神与人。

The natural and supernatural, god and human.

而且，是的，听这个播客的大多数无神论者会想，过去的人非常落后，他们认为天空中存在一些奇怪的生物，诸如此类的东西。

And, yeah, most people who are atheists who are listening to this podcast will think, well, people in the past were very backward, they thought that they were strange creatures in the sky and and all this sort of stuff.

但奥古斯都的神化表明，凡人与不朽之间存在着更为复杂的关系，因为人们当然并不认为他拥有神力。

But the Augustus' deification suggests a much more complicated relationship between mortal and immortal because, of course, people didn't think that I mean, they didn't think he had powers.

那些曾与他共事、每天早晨带着文件来上班、讨论税收政策的公务员们知道，他并不是那种像漫威超级英雄电影里的神明。

You know, the people who had worked with him, who had been his sort of civil servants who had trudged in with the paperwork every morning and discussed tax policies knew that he didn't you know, they didn't think of him as a god in the as a sort of Marvel superhero film No.

他们不是这么看待神的，对吧？

Sense of the gods, did they?

这比那要复杂和微妙得多。

It's a much more complicated and nuanced picture than that.

这关乎权威、传统，以及诸如此类的东西。

It's about authority and about tradition and all this sort of stuff.

对吧？

Right?

但我认为这也是一种感激，因为罗马饱受内战摧残，而奥古斯都实际上是带来和平的人。

But I think it's also gratitude for because Rome has been ravaged by civil war, and Augustus essentially is the man who brings peace.

所以奥古斯都，你知道，他是神的儿子。

So Augustus is, you know, he's the son of a god.

他为一个饱受摧残的世界带来了和平。

He, he brings peace to a ravaged world.

他和他的支持者们宣称这是‘欧安杰利亚’，也就是好消息，我们有铭文为证。

He his the people who support him proclaim this as and we have inscription saying it, that it's Euangelia, so good news.

对。

Right.

哦，有意思。

Oh, interesting.

福音的。

Evangelical.

有意思。

Interesting.

是的

Yeah.

当他去世后，他升入天堂，坐在他神圣父亲的右边。

And then when he dies, he he goes to heaven and sits at the right hand of his divine father.

所以这没什么奇怪的。

So there's nothing odd about that.

罗马帝国的人民理所当然地认为，伟大的人物能够成为神。

The people of of of the Roman Empire take for granted that great people will you know, can become gods.

当然，这背后潜藏着另一个在公元一世纪兴起的崇拜：一位神之子，和平之君，升入天堂，坐在他父亲的右边。

Lurking behind this, of course, is another cult that emerges in the first century of a son of a god who is a prince of peace, who ascends to heaven and sits at the right hand of his father.

对。

Yes.

关于耶稣被神化，令人震惊的并不是凡人成为不朽者，而是这样一个奴隶做到了这一点。

What what's shocking about the deification of Jesus isn't isn't the fact that a a mortal is becoming immortal, but that a slave is doing it.

一个受苦的人，所以是一个默默无闻的凡人

Someone who suffers So it's a mortal who's a nobody

而不是一个凡人，比如保罗，当保罗去加拉太时，他写了《加拉太书》。

rather than an mortal in which so Paul Saint Paul, when he goes to Galatia, you know, he writes his letter to the Galatians.

加拉太似乎是崇拜奥古斯都的一个特别中心。

Galatians seems to have been a particular cult center for Augustus.

我们所了解的关于奥古斯都的许多内容，包括他的自传和相关记载，都来自加拉太。

A lot of of what we know about Augustus, his his autobiography, the accounts of that come from Galatia.

因此，我认为，保罗显然非常清楚，他所传扬的‘福音’——这好消息——是对奥古斯都崇拜的一种讽刺。

And so there's a sense, I think, in which, Paul certainly is very aware of the fact that the the the the the euangelion, the gospel, the good news that he's bringing is a parody of the cult of Augustus.

但在我们继续之前，奥古斯都的崇拜不也像尤利乌斯·凯撒的崇拜吗？他们显然在继承某种希腊化传统，对吧？

But also, before we move on, isn't isn't Augustus' cult like well, like Julius Caesar's cult, they're clearly picking up, aren't they, on the sort of Hellenistic?

亚历山大大帝曾被奉为神明。

So Alexander the Great had been a god.

马其顿的腓力二世，亚历山大的父亲，也被赋予了神一般的特质。

Philip the second of Macedon, Alexander's father, had had godlike attributes.

埃及的托勒密王朝被当作神明崇拜，法老们也是如此。

The Ptolemies in Egypt had been worshiped as gods, as pharaohs had.

当罗马人在其帝国扩张过程中进入东地中海时，他们是否也在大量吸收这些元素，并将其带回罗马，取代了此前较为共和制的价值观？

And that the Romans are basically picking up as their as their empires expanded and they've moved into the Eastern Mediterranean, aren't they picking up a lot of that sort of stuff and then transporting it back to Rome in place of the sort of slightly more Republican kind of values that they'd had before that?

我认为，这种崇拜的吸引力部分在于，不同的人群和传统可以将自己的文化理解投射到这位被神化的皇帝身上。

I think part of the appeal of the cult is that different people different peoples, different traditions can project their cultural understandings onto the figure of of this deified emperor.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我认为，没错，我觉得这非常有趣。

So I think, yeah, I think I think that's very interesting.

我认为奥古斯都毫无疑问配得上他在世界杯中的存在。

I think Augustus was, you know, absolutely deserved his presence in the in this World Cup.

但再说一次，

But, again

他被淘汰了，对吧？

He crashed out, didn't he?

他被淘汰了。

He crashed out

打得非常差。

to the Very poorly.

非常差。

Very poorly.

雅典娜，头号种子。

Athena, the number one seed.

我觉得。

I think

这场比赛本来就会很难打。

It was always gonna be a a difficult match.

粉丝们就是无法接受他曾是个男人的事实。

Fans just couldn't see past the fact that he had once been a man.

是的。

Yeah.

而且

And

是的。

yeah.

我们接下来要做什么？

Let's what are we going to do next?

我们要进行本地对阵阿努比斯的比赛吗？

Are we going to do We've got local against Anubis.

这真是个大冷门。

So this is the big shock.

而且我仍然觉得，我的投票是给阿努比斯的。

And I I still think I mean, I voted for Anubis.

我希望阿努比斯赢。

Wanted I Anubis.

我不打算撒谎。

I'm not gonna lie.

我希望阿努比斯赢，因为我在学校时曾和他有联系，那时我做过阿努比斯面具。

I wanted Anubis to win because of my own association with him at school when I made my Anubis mask.

我为此感到非常自豪。

I was very proud of it.

然而，洛基是一位非常有趣的神，他本应在比赛中走得更远。

However, Loki is a very interesting god, and he probably should have gone further in the tournament.

你觉得呢？

Do know what think?

他输了。

He lost.

这也像是一个反汤姆·希德勒斯顿的角色。

Also It's a a sort of anti Tom Hiddleston.

我认为并没有出现反漫威漫画的反弹。

There was no anti Marvel comics backlash, I think.

你觉得是因为奥丁和洛基众所周知，或许比其他任何神祇都更出名，就是因为这个原因吗？

Do you think because I think that that Odin and and Loki are from you know, they they they're well known, perhaps better known than any other god at the moment because of that

是的。

Yeah.

漫威宇宙。

Marvel dimension.

我觉得也许人们有点厌倦了

I think maybe people are a bit bored of

因为他无处不在。

him because he's ubiquitous.

也许吧。

Maybe.

而且，你知道，马上就要有一部洛基的电影或电视剧什么的，我觉得他现在无处不在， trailers 一直不停地放，诸如此类。

And, you know, there's about to be a Loki film or TV series or something, and I think he's just everywhere, and there's trailers for all the time and all that stuff.

这是一个非常有趣的例子，说明在某种意义上，这仍然是一个活的传统。

Kind of fascinating example of the way in which this, in a sense, is still a living tradition.

我想是这样的。

I suppose so.

因为众所周知，我们对维京人诸神的了解，是通过当时已经是基督徒的作家们传述下来的

Well, because, you know, notoriously, what we know about the the gods of the Vikings and and is is mediated through writers who were Christian by the time they

都是冰岛作家。

were Icelandic writers.

因此，问题始终在于这些传统被基督教化到了什么程度，或者它们是否是原汁原味的。

And so there and and so therefore, the issue is always how Christianized has this been or are these authentic traditions.

所以它一直在被不断重写、重写、再重写。

And in a set so it's always being rewritten, rewritten, rewritten.

而它们在漫威漫画中的各种演绎，不过是这一现象的又一个例子。

And the the their kind of iteration in the Marvel comics is just another example of that.

我想这是对的。

I suppose that's true.

好吧，不管怎样，我们说说洛基。

Well, anyway, let's Loki.

他是一个诡计之神。

So he's a trickster.

很多人知道他是海拉、芬里尔狼和耶梦加得巨蛇的父亲，但他奇怪地也是斯莱普尼尔的父亲，对吧？

He a lot of people will know that he's the father of hell, and Fenrir, the wolf, and Jormungans, the the serpent, that he's also bizarrely the father of Sleipnir, is it?

八条腿的马。

The eight legged horse.

奥丁的八条腿马。

Eight legged horse of Odin.

是的。

Yes.

就像，他被怀孕了。

Like, he's impregnated.

他自己怀孕了。

He is impregnated himself.

对。

Yeah.

生出了这匹八条腿的马。

Gives birth to this this eight legged horse.

我的意思是，即使按照古代神祇的标准来看，这也非常奇特。

I mean, that's a very peculiar, even by the standards of ancient gods.

这真是挺奇怪的举动，不是吗？

That's a that's a strange carry on, isn't it?

然后，当然了，他 famously 欺骗了霍德尔——巴德尔的盲眼兄弟。

And then, of course, famously, he tricks Hod into The blind brother of Baldr.

巴德尔的兄弟，并用箭射杀了巴德尔，那位人人都爱戴的神。

Of Baldr and shooting Baldr, the god who everybody loves.

然后他因此受到了惩罚，对吧？

And then he's punished for that, isn't he?

他被一条蛇滴下的毒液滴在脸上？

He's does a serpent drip venom into his face?

是这样吗？

Is that it?

是的。

Yeah.

嗯，这只是一个中间阶段，因为冥界之神说，如果所有人都为巴德尔哭泣，他就能复活。

Well, it's an intermediate stage because he the god of the underworld says that Baldur can come back if it's shown that everyone is weeping for him.

整个宇宙的所有人都为他哭泣，唯独一位女巨人没有。

And everyone across creation weeps for him except for a giantess.

众神问：‘你为什么不去哭泣？’

The gods ask, why are you not weeping?

他回答：‘好吧。’

And he says, alright.

那女巨人说：‘我不在乎。’

The giantess says, I don't care.

这就像是有人拒绝参加戴安娜的葬礼一样。

It's like the person who refuses to go to Diana's funeral or something.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

但后来发现，那其实是洛基。

But that turns out to be Loki.

所以他们

So then they

抓住了他。

seize him.

他们抓住他，把他锁起来，让一条蛇的毒液滴在他的头上。

They seize him and and chain him down and put a serpent drips poison on his head.

那这一切是什么意思，汤姆？

So what's all this, Tom?

这是一个非常特殊的角色，因为我们之前讨论的大多数神明都是那种你与他们的崇拜保持距离的人，因为这些神明身上有某种值得钦佩的特质，比如代表爱、生育或其他价值。

So this is a very unusual figure because most of the gods we've talked about are people who were you know, you dissociate themself you dissociate yourself with their cult because there was something admirable about the god or the or they they incarnated some value, you know, love or fertility or whatever.

但他是个相当邪恶的存在，不是吗？

But he's a pretty malignant presence, isn't

是吗？

he?

卑鄙，对吧？

Mean, just isn't he?

我想他挺有趣的。

I suppose he is fun.

我的意思是，他出现在儿童故事里。

I mean, he's in the kids stories.

所以，你知道，我们家到处都是北欧神话之类的东西，重得吱呀作响。

So, you know, our house is full of creaking with the weight of kind of Norse myths and stuff.

他总是在这些故事里。

And he's always in them.

我的意思是，他不在那些故事里，那些故事太无聊了。

I mean, he's not in them, they're very boring.

都是托尔用锤子打巨人。

It's Thor hitting a giant with a hammer.

有时候他还会帮托尔一把，对吧？

And sometimes sometimes he's helping Thor out, isn't he?

是的。

Yes.

他是的。

He is.

有时候索尔简直是个傻瓜。

Sometimes Thor is an absolute fool.

而洛基在那里，我的意思是，他基本上就像神圣的奥德修斯。

And And Loki's there to to I mean, he's kind of divine Odysseus, basically.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

人们会说，你知道的

And people would like, you know

这就是为什么希德勒斯顿的演绎，我的意思是，他在漫威漫画中比索尔有趣得多。

Well, that's why the the Hiddleston the Hiddleston portrayal, I mean, he's much more interesting than Thor in the Marvel comics.

是的。

Yes.

电影。

Films.

你知道，索尔只是一个肌肉发达的类型，而希德斯顿扮演的是一个魅力十足、带着狡黠微笑的聪明人物。

You know, Thor is just a sort of beefcake, and and and Hiddleston is playing this sort of charismatic, of smirking Clever person.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，他竟然真的崩溃了，这确实有点奇怪。

I mean so that makes it weird that he did crash out, actually.

但我觉得，我怀疑人们

But I again, I think I suspect people

喜欢狗。

love dogs.

我的意思是，人们喜欢骗子，但他们更喜欢狗。

I mean, people like tricksters, but they like dogs even more.

所以

And so

我们后来在比赛中发现，它们还不够。

They're not quite enough as we found out later in tournament.

这是比赛中的重大争议，但我们先放一放。

The big controversy of the tournament, but we'll save that.

好的。

Okay.

那么洛基就走了。

So that was Loki gone.

是的。

Yeah.

然后我们有了凯巴莱。

And then we have Keebalay.

对。

Right.

对。

Yeah.

再次，这是你的选择之一。

Again, one of your choices.

是的。

Yes.

直到我做了一些研究，了解到基巴莱的祭司或其追随者，我才明白这个选择的由来。

Now, I was mystified by this choice until I did some research and found out about the priests or the associates of Kibalei.

但你查明她有多大年纪了吗？

But did you find out how old she is?

非常老。

Very old.

伊什塔尔有多大年纪？

How old Ishtar is?

基巴莱更老。

Kibalei is older.

基巴莱更老吗？

Is Kibalei is older?

嗯，也许吧。

Well, maybe.

我有点不确定，但有可能她的信仰可以追溯到加泰土丘，所以基巴莱是安纳托利亚（即现在的土耳其）的弗里吉亚神。

I I diff but but it's possible that she goes all the way back to Catalhoyuk in so so Kibalei is a Phrygian god in Anatolia, what's now Turkey.

土耳其。

Turkey.

是的。

Yeah.

但人们认为，她的崇拜最终起源于一位母神形象，这位母神与这些非常丰满的女性形象有关，是的。

But she it is thought that her cult ultimately has its origins in a at the figure of a mother goddess who is associated with these kind of very, very fat women Yeah.

在加泰土丘发现的，因为这些

Found at Chateau Hoyt, which is this kind of because the

她的雕像非常非常丰满，对吧？

the statues are very, very fat, aren't they, of her?

是的。

Yeah.

所以大概是公元前6000年左右。

So it's kind of 6,000 BC, something like that.

考虑到这一点，你知道，她一直被崇拜到大约公元500年，如果真是这样，那她就是被崇拜时间最长的神祇。

And considering that, you know, she's worshiped right the way up to kind of 500 AD, she if if that's the case, then she is the deity that has been worshiped longer than any other.

所以她被崇拜了几乎

So she's been worshiped almost They're

比方说，比犹太教的三位神祇还要久得多

much longer than, say, you know, the Jewish Three

是耶稣的三倍多，想想看，这真是非同寻常。

three times longer than Jesus so far, which is extraordinary when you think of it.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我们谈到了阿肯那顿和图坦卡蒙。

So so we talked about Akhenaten and Tutankhamun.

他们离我们更近，而不是离他们那个时代更远

They are closer to us than than they are

哇。

Wow.

而且，基巴莱的首批崇拜者。

To And the the first worshipers of Kibalei.

那

That

所以我认为她完全配得上‘资深’这个称号。

So I think she deserves, you know, absolute veteran.

她是一种母神。

And she's a sort of she's a mother goddess.

但有趣的是，罗马人采纳了她。

But that what's interesting, the Romans adopted her.

真的吗？

Did they?

在布匿战争期间，他们把一块石头带到了罗马？

During the Punic War, they brought some stone to Rome?

是的。

Yeah.

所以他们被告知，正在与汉尼拔作战时，要将基比勒的崇拜引入罗马。

So they get told so so they're fighting the war against Hannibal, they get told to bring the the cult of Quibile to Rome.

结果船卡住了，一位罗马贵族处女帮忙把船拉了上来。

And the ship gets stuck, and a a noble Roman virgin helps pull it up.

曼泰尼亚有一幅著名画作描绘了这一场景，收藏于国家美术馆。

And there's a famous painting by Mantegna illustrating that in the National Gallery.

假设不是她一个人完成的。

Presuming not single handed.

我的意思是，她并不是独自——那就是，没错。

I mean, she doesn't That's that's the that's yeah.

那就是，那就是，而且。

The That's the that's the And and

在某个时候，基比勒是否有了石像的面容？

at some point, does Kibbele got the face of a stone?

是这样吗？

Is that right?

有各种各样的

There's all kinds of

因为我觉得她是母神。

because she's I think because she's a mother goddess.

是的。

Yeah.

每个崇拜体系都有，你知道的，每个人都有一个母神。

And every cult has you know, every every everyone has a mother goddess.

是的。

Yeah.

她很容易就混在一起了。

She can kind of blur in very easily.

所以很多西布莉的雕像，你知道的，都是由希腊雕塑家制作的，因此她看起来就像任何一位希腊神祇。

And so lots of the statues of Kibbe, you know, they're they're done by Greek sculptors, and so she looks like any Greek god.

但还存在一些更古老的传统，将她与石头或图腾等联系在一起。

But there are also these much older traditions where she is associated just with stones or with totems or whatever.

关于基巴勒的故事与希腊神祇非常不同。

And the stories that are told about Kibale are very unlike Greek gods, really.

这其中有一种奇特的感觉。

There's there's a kind of strangeness to it.

所以，本质上，在她成为库比勒之前，她是双性同体的，然后她割下了自己的睾丸，对吧。

So, essentially, there's there's this thing where she, before she becomes kybile, she is hermaphroditic, and she then cuts off her testicles Right.

把它们砍掉，我们又回到了生殖器残割的话题。

Hacks them off, we're back into the genital mutilation.

哦，我们要进入了

Oh, we're gonna get

把它们扔掉了。

Throws them away.

马上。

In a second.

这些睾丸后来长成了一棵果树。

These testicles then grow up to become a a fruit tree.

一位河宁芙摘下果实，放在胸前，是的。

A river nymph takes the fruit, puts it Yeah.

她将果实贴在胸前，因此怀孕并生下了这位名叫阿提斯的俊美青年。

To her breast, and becomes pregnant with this fruit, gives love gives birth to this beautiful youth who's given the name of Attis.

好的。

Okay.

是的。

Yeah.

基巴勒随后爱上了阿提斯，从某种意义上说，他就是她的儿子。

Kibale then falls in love with Attis, who in a sense is her son.

我们是她那被变成树的睾丸的产物。

We're the product of her own testicles that have been turned into a tree.

我有点迷失了。

I've I've lost

我有水果。

I've I have fruit.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

阿提斯想娶一个人。

Lost Attis wants to marry someone.

基巴勒嫉妒，出现在婚礼上。

Quibale is jealous, turns up at the marriage.

好。

Yep.

阿提斯发疯了，割下自己的睾丸，逃离了祭坛。

Attis goes mad, cuts off his testicles, runs away from the altar.

然后基巴勒让他处于一种近乎停滞的状态。

And Quibali then basically keeps him into kind of suspended animation.

所以这是有史以来最糟糕的婚礼。

So it's the worst wedding ever.

那是

That's

这让《权力的游戏》的婚礼看起来都像平行世界了。

that makes the that makes the wedding for Game of Thrones look like a parallel.

那简直是小菜一碟。

That's a cakewalk.

我的意思是，想象一下，如果你是新娘，你的新郎突然割掉自己的睾丸，跟着他妈妈跑了。

I mean, imagine if you're the bride and your your group suddenly hacks off his testicles and runs off with his mother.

那事儿没搞成，那事儿没搞成

That didn't go that didn't go

太糟糕了。

It's terrible.

这真是一桩糟糕透顶的事。

It's a terrible, terrible business.

天哪。

Oh my god.

所以你能理解为什么罗马人对此有点不屑。

So you can see why the Romans are slightly sniffy about it.

是的。

Yeah.

但随后

But then

他们采纳了它。

they adopt it.

他们觉得，自己正在打一场败仗，于是想，最显而易见的做法是什么？

They're like, they're losing a war, and they think, well, what's the obvious thing to do?

我们来采用这座很棒的桥吧。

Let's adopt this really nice bridge.

是的。

Yeah.