59. 神之世界杯 - 第二部分

我的意思是，撇开这一点，我觉得他没什么意思，而伊西斯则有趣得多。

I mean, aside from that, I think he's not very interesting, whereas Isis is a lot more interesting.

我觉得阿努比斯对孩子们有很大的吸引力

I think Anubis has an immense appeal to children

因为他是一只狗。

because of his dog.

他就像

He's like

狗头。

dog head.

狗头。

Dog head.

而且，他也出现在很多电影里，不是吗？

And, also, he hasn't he's appeared in loads of kind of films, hasn't he?

在电脑游戏里还有

In computer games and

他已经成为古埃及的一种象征，是的。

Well, he's just become a sort of emblem of ancient Egypt Yes.

某种程度上，这可能并不适用于其他埃及神祇，我是说，埃及神祇都很迷人，但有多少人能记得他们呢？

In a way that's probably not true of mean, I how many Egyptian gods Egyptian gods are fascinating, but how many of them do people remember?

三个，四个？

Three, four?

而阿努比斯总是其中之一，因为他有犬类的外形，还有荷鲁斯，

And Anubis is always one of them because of the canine And Horus,

我想，另一个是荷鲁斯，因为他有鹰头。

I guess, is the other because he's got head of a hawk.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

没错。

Exactly.

我儿子做了一个，你知道的，马的服装。

So my son made a, you know, horse costume.

当他

His When he was

没让他进去。

didn't get him in.

当他像我五岁或六岁时那样，做了一个马的服装。

When he was doing what I did when I was five or six, he made a horse costume.

我做了一个阿努比斯。

I made an Anubis.

汤姆，你曾经做过埃及服装吗？

Did you ever make an Egyptian costume, Tom?

没有。

No.

我没做过。

I didn't.

我错过了这个成年仪式。

I missed out on this rite of passage.

是的。

Yeah.

我错过了

I out on

一种密德兰地区的习俗。

a Midland thing.

肯定是。

Must be.

肯定是。

Must be.

对。

Yes.

好的。

Alright.

所以安妮·比斯是在非常有争议的情况下被击败的。

So Annie Bis was defeated in very controversial circumstances.

我认为，当我们未来举办世界杯时，显然需要制定一项行为准则，规定裁判或组织者不得介入比赛。

I think when we have future World Cups, there will clearly have to be a code of conduct about the judges or the the organizers not getting involved

在我所做的事情中

in what I did for the

为了这项运动的利益。

for the benefit of the sport.

那是塞布·拉塔。

Well, that's Seb Latta.

我的意思是，这就是塞布·拉塔的说法。

I mean, that's what Seb Latta says.

好吧。

Fine.

是的。

Yeah.

这是弗洛伦蒂诺·佩雷斯在皇家马德里所说的。

It's what Florentino Perez says at Real Madrid.

超级联赛。

The Super League.

你知道吗？

You know?

这项运动。

The sport.

是的。

Yeah.

显然。

Clearly.

好吧。

Alright.

我们再做一轮，然后休息一下，我们来谈谈阿波罗。

Let's do one more go before the break, and let's do Apollo.

所以是阿波罗对阵奥丁。

So It's Apollo against Odin.

是的。

Yeah.

阿波罗对阵奥丁。

Apollo against Odin.

现在，依我看来，阿波罗输了，奥丁赢了。

Now Apollo to me And Odin won.

所以相当轻松。

Is is the So quite comfortably.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，出人意料地轻松。

I mean, surprisingly comfortably.

在我看来，阿波罗是希腊神祇的绝对典范。

Now Apollo to me is the absolute epitome of a Greek god.

我的意思是，他是那座似乎象征着古希腊的雕像。

I mean, he is the statue that that that that seems to symbolize ancient Greece.

但我想，他身上究竟有什么特别之处呢？

And yet, what is it about him, I wonder?

是因为一种平淡感，一种被感知到的平淡，使得他没有

Is it a blandness, a perceived blandness that meant that he's not

不平淡吗？

bland there?

我的意思是，他太过完美了，但显然选民们并不买账。

I mean, he's too much he's banned, but obviously, people the voters didn't go for him.

我觉得奥丁是个相当受欢迎的角色，因为他又带有那种略带电子游戏风格的特质。

I think I think Odin is is a kind of very popular figure because he's again, he's got that kind of slight computer game Yeah.

他有一种独特的边缘感。

Edge to him.

而阿波罗并没有这种特质。

Which Apollo doesn't really have.

阿波罗也没有。

Which Apollo doesn't.

而且我觉得阿波罗还与一种略显冷峻的十八世纪古典主义有关。

And I think also Apollo is kind of associated with a slightly chilly eighteenth century classicism.

是的。

Yeah.

我就是想说，我想是这样，

That's what I meant by, I guess,

两者都是。

by both.

所以，在十八世纪的时候，贝尔维德雷的阿波罗雕像被认为是世界上最美的雕像，但如今没人再推崇它了。

So the I guess in the kind of the eighteenth century, the the Apollo Belvedere was seen as being the most beautiful statue in the world, and nobody now rates it at all.

但当然，实际上阿波罗是一位令人畏惧的神。

But, of course, actually, Apollo was a was a terrifying god.

为什么令人畏惧？

Why terrifying?

为什么

Why did

因为他首先是瘟疫之神。

he Well, he's the god of plague for starters.

明白了。

Okay.

这确实很可怕。

That is terrifying.

你知道，经历了过去这一年

You know, having gone through the past year

是的。

Yeah.

正是阿波罗的瘟疫之箭一直在我们头上倾泻而下。

It's it's Apollo's plague arrows that have been raining down on us.

你知道，《伊利亚特》开篇就是阿波罗向希腊营地射下瘟疫之箭。

You know, that's what the Iliad begins with is is Apollo raining down plague arrows on on the on the Greek camp.

他同时也是，你知道的，斯卡庇乌斯的父亲。

He's also the you know, he's the father of Scapius.

他是治愈之神。

He's the god of healing.

所以，再次看到这种我们在这众神身上反复见到的奇怪张力。

So, again, you get that kind of weird tension that we see again through you know, in all these gods.

他还是预言之神。

And he's the god of of prophecy.

是的。

Yeah.

但你知道，我们之前也讨论过，他的一个称号是洛克西阿斯，意思是‘迂回之神’。

But, you know, we we again, we talked about this before, the way so he's one of his epithets is Loxias, which is kind of the oblique god.

因此，他告诉你的任何事都很可能是在骗你。

So anything he tells you is likely to trick you.

这有点像洛基的元素。

That's Loki ish element term.

不。

No.

不，不是这样的。

I I I no.

因为我认为它并不是有意要欺骗你。

Because I think it's it's not setting out to deceive you.

这是被考虑在内的。

It's factored in.

这就像一个填字游戏。

It's kind of like a crossword puzzle.

好吧。

Okay.

希腊人对那些拥有其他神谕的民族感到困惑，那些民族得到神谕后就直接照做。

And the the Greeks were puzzled by the people of who had other oracles that when they got their oracles, they just took them straight.

而希腊人知道，阿波罗的言论必须仔细解读。

Whereas the Greeks knew that Apollo's comments, utterances had to be read quite carefully.

如果你没有正确理解，那么你很可能会误解它。

And if you didn't get them properly, then you'd probably come across it.

这就是德尔斐神谕。

And this is the Oracle of Delphi.

那么，阿波罗崇拜是起源于德尔斐，还是德尔斐只是采纳了他？

So does the Apollo cult begin at Delphi, or does Delphi just adopt him?

嗯，有两个主要的崇拜中心。

Well, there's two there are two great cult centers.

一个是德尔斐，另一个是提洛岛。

There's Delphi as one, and Delos is the other.

而提洛岛是阿波罗和他的双胞胎妹妹——同样令人畏惧的处女猎手阿尔忒弥斯——的诞生地。

And Delos is where Apollo and his twin sister, the equally terrifying Artemis, the virgin huntress, are born.

据说提洛岛原本是漂浮着的，直到他们出生时才固定下来。

And it's said that Delos was, kind of floating around, and then it gets anchored when when they're born.

关于提洛岛和德尔斐，有趣的是，它们本质上都是中立的。

And the thing that's interesting about both Delos and Delphi is that they're effectively neutral.

这是其他希腊神明所不具备的。

That's something that you don't get with other Greek gods.

所以它并不与某个特定的城邦或权力中心相关联。

So it's not associated with a particular power bet, a city state.

是的。

Yeah.

所以这两个地方都几乎具有一种传教般的特质，这在希腊世界中是非常独特的。

So so both of those they they almost have a kind of missionary quality that's very, you know, exceptional in in the Greek Right.

背景。

Context.

这意味着德尔斐和德洛斯都成为了来自不同城邦的人们可以相聚的中立空间。

And it means that both Delphi and Delos become neutral spaces where people from different cities can meet up.

但正如你所说，阿波罗正因为这一点，成为了希腊神明的典范，因为他与宙斯联系在一起。

But as you say, Apollo, I think for that reason, becomes the archetype of the Greek god because he's with Zeus.

他是一种真正普世性的神明。

He's kind of a properly universal one.

但奇怪的是，他虽然是希腊神的典范，但在特洛伊战争和《伊利亚特》中，他站在特洛伊人一边，而不是希腊人一边。

But then the weird thing is that he's, you know, the epitome of the Greek god, but in the Trojan War, in the Iliad, he's on the side of the Trojans, not the Greeks.

这又是怎么回事呢？

What's all that about?

因为《伊利亚特》中的特洛伊人基本上属于和

Be be because the Trojans in in the Iliadocene is basically be belonging to the same world as

希腊人同一个世界。

the Greeks.

他们是希腊世界的一部分，而他只是恰好站在他们这边，而不是站在亚该亚人那边，或者不管他们叫什么。

Part of the Greek world, and he just happens to be on their side rather than the Yeah.

亚该亚人或者他们其他的称呼。

Achaeans or whatever they're

被称为。

called.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，说到特洛伊战争，当然，这里有一个可怕的警示，就是不要挑选神明并拥立其中一位为胜利者，因为这正是引发整个事件的根源。

I mean, talking of the Trojan War, of course, you know, there's a terrible warning there about picking gods and crowning one as the victor, because that's what basically starts the whole shebang.

但愿不会。

Let's hope that

是的。

yes.

但愿不会发生这种情况。

Let's hope that that doesn't.

关于阿波罗，我还有一个问题。

One more question about Apollo.

哦，对啊。

Oh, yeah.

他有个习惯，就是追逐一些人，而这些人后来会变成植物。

He has this habit of pursuing people who then turn into plants.

这不是真的吗，海辛瑟斯？

Isn't that right, Hyacinth?

他确实如此。

He does.

是的。

Yes.

他确实如此。

He does.

嗯，我们请到了无与伦比的乔纳森·威尔逊来做这件事，是的。

Well, so we had, one of the we we had the, peerless Jonathan Wilson do it Yeah.

提供了精彩的评论。

Providing sensational punditry.

但在半决赛中，我们还请到了伟大的奥维德学者卢埃林·摩根做解说，他的《奥维德简明导论》非常出色，强烈推荐。

But we also had in the semifinals, we had commentary from Llewellyn Morgan, the great avidian scholar whose, short introduction to Ovid is really fantastic, highly recommended.

他在书中指出，我们所认为的许多希腊神话内容，实际上其实是奥维德神话，因为这位伟大的罗马诗人将这些故事整合成一个统一的整体，而且他痴迷于形态的转变。

And he makes the point in that that a lot about a lot of what we think of as being, Greek mythology is actually avidian mythology because Ovid, the great Roman poet, takes these stories and packages them as a kind of single entity, and he's obsessed with people changing form.

他整部诗作都是围绕这个主题写的。

And he writes his whole poem about it.

变形记

Metamorphose.

是的

Yeah.

还有，没错，阿波罗所改变的所有宁芙，都变成了月桂树之类的植物。

And, yes, all the nymphs that Apollo is changing, they're kinda turning into laurel trees or whatever.

是的

Yeah.

这确实是一个永恒的主题。

That's that's absolutely a constant.

但这些基本上源自奥维德，而奥维德的巨大影响随后延伸至。

But that's basically coming from Ovid, and from that, it then passes into Ovid's huge influence on.

莎士比亚。

Shakespeare.

阿波罗并没有去骚扰那些变成树木的人。

Apollo is not he's not molesting all these people who become trees.

确实有点这样。

It kind of is.

我的意思是，这些故事确实存在，但正是奥维德将它们包装起来，并传播到世界各地。

I mean, there are these stories, but it gets packaged in a way that, then gets taken out around the world, by Ovid.

所以这就像披头士吸收了各种不同的传统，然后以一种人们容易接受的方式呈现出来。

So it's kind of like, you know, the Beatles absorbing all these various traditions and packaging them in a way that people can consume.

好吧。

Okay.

披头士终于在关于古代神祇的播客中登场了。

The Beatles have made their long expected appearance on the podcast about ancient gods.

我觉得卡片快满了。

And I think card is filling up.

是的。

Yeah.

就此打住，我们先休息一下，待会儿回来讨论四位半决赛选手。

On that note, we'll take a break, and we will come back, to discuss the four semifinalists after the break.

欢迎回到《历史余韵》。

Welcome back to The Rest is History.

我们现在已经进入了众神世界杯的半决赛阶段。

We've now reached the semifinal stage of the World Cup of Gods.

还剩下四位竞争者，他们是狄俄尼索斯、伊西斯、雅典娜和奥丁。

There are four contenders left, and they are Dionysus, Isis, Athena, and Odin.

那么，汤姆，我们先来讨论一下那两位本应获得第三、第四名的神吧。

So, Tom, let's do the the the two gods who would have ended up in the third, fourth place Yeah.

季后赛，那场没人想打的铜牌争夺战。

Playoff, the bronze medal match that nobody ever wants to play in.

而狄俄尼索斯输给了雅典娜，并且输得毫无悬念。

And they are Dionysus lost and lost comfortably to Athena.

狄俄尼索斯是位非常有趣的神，对吧？

Dionysus is a very interesting god, isn't he?

他是宙斯和珀耳塞福涅的儿子。

So he's the son of Zeus and Persephone.

是这样吗？

Is that right?

塞墨勒。

Semele.

塞墨勒。

Semele.

我觉得关于这些神的出身，往往有不同的说法，对吧？

I think there were different are there not different well, there are different accounts with all these gods, often of their origins.

他是酒神。

He's the god of wine.

他是戏剧之神。

He's the god of theater.

当然，他还与狄俄尼索斯秘仪以及罗马的巴克斯崇拜有关。

And, of course, associated with the Dionysian mysteries and with the Bacchus cult in Rome.

所以，巴克斯和狄俄尼索斯是同一位神吗？

So, again, is Bacchus Bacchus Dionysus, are they the same?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

酒神狂女是那些参与狄俄尼索斯狂喜仪式的人，是的。

And the Bacchantes are people who follow Dionysus in kind of ecstatic rituals Yeah.

欧里庇得斯的伟大戏剧《酒神的女信徒》的主题也是这个，是的。

And is the theme of Euripides' great play, The Bacchae Yeah.

它描述了狄俄尼索斯来到忒拜，而忒拜的国王试图将他赶走。

Which describes how Dionysus comes to Thebes, and the king of Thebes tries to basically chase him off.

所以这就像警察试图阻止人们在田野里举办狂欢派对一样。

So it's it's kind of like the, I suppose, the the police trying to stop, you know, ravers having raves in fields.

但狄俄尼索斯可不会任由他们这样。

But, Dionysus isn't having any of that.

他乔装成一名女子。

And, he he goes disguised as a woman.

所以狄俄尼索斯的追随者，迈那得斯，是些被附身、变得极度狂暴和狂喜的女性。

So he Dionysus' followers, the Maenads, are are women who get possessed and incredibly violent and ecstatic.

因此，忒拜国王彭透斯伪装成一名迈那得斯前去探查，但被识破，他的母亲亲手将他撕碎。

And so, Pentheus, king of Thebes, goes there disguised as as a Maenad, but he gets discovered, his own mother tears him to pieces.

这让他明白不该去阻止。

And that teaches him to try and stop.

是的。

Yeah.

这足以让你长记性了。

That would teach you

少点醉酒狂欢。

less a drunken orgy.

所以

So

是的。

Yeah.

在公众心目中，狄俄尼索斯是醉酒狂欢之神。

So in the public mind, Dionysus is the god of drunken orgy.

你认为他身上还有比这更多的内涵吗？

Is that is there more to him than that, do you think?

我不知道你有没有读过罗伯托·卡洛斯的《卡德摩斯与和谐的婚姻》。

Well, I don't know if you've read Roberto Classo's Marriage of Cadmus and Harmony.

我读过。

I have

我没读过。

not.

这是一本关于希腊诸神的精彩著作，非常独特。

Wonderful book about the Greek gods, very inimitable.

书中我最喜欢的一句话是这样的。

And he my favorite sentence in that book is as follows.

狄俄尼索斯的阳具更具幻觉性，而非强制性。

Dionysus' phallus is more hallucinogenic than coercive.

好的。

Okay.

那你给我详细讲讲。

So talk me through that.

嗯，他是一位非常富有情欲的神。

Well, he he's he's he's a very erotic god.

是的。

Yeah.

据说，西卡翁人将他奉为女性性欲之主。

He the Sychaonians, we're told, worshiped him as lord of the female sex.

据说，他的手指能像拨动竖琴的琴弦一样让事物颤动。

So he it's said that he's the one whose fingers can can make it vibrate like the strings of a liar.

哎哟。

Oy.

这是他的超能力之一。

That is one of his one of his superpowers.

是的。

Yeah.

但另一个超能力显然是，他能将追随者带入一种狂喜的意识改变状态。

But the other superpower, obviously, is that, he can bring his followers into a kind of ecstatic altered state.

是的。

Yeah.

于是你不仅获得性满足，还某种程度上抛开了日常生活的单调乏味，进入这种狂喜境界。

So you get, sexual fulfillment, but you also, kind of leave, you know, the diurnal tedium of your everyday life behind and and enter this kind of ecstasy stage.

但欧里庇得斯的故事暗示，这种狂喜背后是不是还有一种更阴暗的一面？

But isn't there something as the Euripides story suggests, something there's a kind of a a more sinister side to this.

我的意思是，当时的人们难道不也对这种狄俄尼索斯崇拜和狄俄尼索斯罗马仪式感到不安吗？

I mean, weren't people alarmed even at the time about that sort of Dionysian cult and the Dionysian The Romans

到处旅行。

trip anywhere.

因此罗马人禁止了它。

So the Romans ban it.

是的。

Yeah.

他们认为这是阴险而危险的。

They they they regard it as as sinister and dangerous.

当然，欧里庇得斯的作品中也有很强的这种元素。

And, obviously, there's an element you know, strong element of that in in Euripides as well.

但同时也有一种观点认为，狄俄尼索斯代表了人类性格中那些压抑起来是愚蠢的方面。

But there's also a sense that Dionysus represents aspects of human character that it is folly to repress.

对。

Right.

所以就是本我，纯粹的本我。

So the id, his pure id, basically.

这正是尼采那篇著名的《悲剧的诞生》一文的核心观点，他将狄俄尼索斯与阿波罗对立起来，视为希腊文化的阴阳两极。

And that's what underpins Nietzsche's famous essay on the birth of tragedy, where he he counterpoints Dionysus with Apollo as the kind of the yin and yang of of Greek culture.

狄俄尼索斯的另一个有趣之处在于，传说他最初来自印度，并带着一支庞大的入侵队伍而来。

Another very interesting aspect of Dionysus is that the story goes that he originally comes from India, and he he comes with a kind of great invasion force.

不是士兵，而是穿着豹纹皮衣、带着常春藤叶的少女和萨提尔之类的人。

Not not soldiers, but, you know, girls in leopard skins and satires with vine leaves and things like that.

但他带来了大象。

But he brings elephants.

据说，在爱琴海东部的塞莫斯岛上，这些大象中有许多在战斗中死亡。

And it was said that there was a that lots of these elephants died on the battle of of on the island of Semos in in the Eastern Aegean.

有趣的是，人们在那里发现了更新世猛犸象的骨骼。

And what's interesting is that the skeletons of Pleistocene mastodons have been found there.

这很有趣。

That's interesting.

阿德里安·梅耶写了一本关于古典古生物学的精彩著作，是的。

And so Adrian Mayer, who's written a wonderful book about kind of classical paleontology Yeah.

他说，这是她能想到的第一个例子

Says that it's the first example that she can think

人们正确地将这些化石识别为大象，并围绕它们构建了神话。

of of people correctly identifying a fossil as belonging to they identify these fossils as elephants and construct the myth around it.

它们非常有趣。

They're very interesting.

还有一个有趣的故事：当马其顿的亚历山大东征印度时，马其顿人发现了一些地方崇拜狄俄尼索斯，他们认为狄俄尼索斯曾攀爬过这些岩石，

There's also an interesting story that when Alexander Of Macedon goes east to India, he the Macedonians find places where Dionysus is worshipped, and they think that Dionysus has climbed these rocks and

是的。

Yeah.

诸如此类的事情。

All that sort of thing.

因此，在希腊世界显然有一种观念，认为印度与狄俄尼索斯有关，

So that there is clearly a sense in the Greek world that there is the Indian that Dionysus has something to do with Yeah.

以及更东方地区正在发生的事情。

Things that are going on further east.

难道没有一些关于狄俄尼索斯被杀而后重生的故事吗？

Isn't there also there are some Dionysus stories in which Dionysus is killed and reborn.

一些学者认为，这表明狄俄尼索斯与奥西里斯属于同一种连续体，奥西里斯也被杀而后重生，当然，耶稣也遵循同样的故事。

And some some scholars have said, well, this you know, he's part of a kind of continuum with Osiris who's also killed and reborn, and, of course, Jesus, who's the same story.

你相信吗？

Do you buy that?

另外，他的母亲被烧死了，因为她被骗了，要求宙斯展现他全盛时的真容，结果她变得干瘪了。

Also, his mother gets incinerated because she gets tricked into asking Zeus to reveal himself in his full glory, and she gets kind of shriveled up.

宙斯救出了狄俄尼索斯，当时他还在母亲腹中的婴儿，是的。

And Zeus rescues, Dionysus, his little baby in the womb Yeah.

然后把他植入自己大腿里。

And implants it in his own thigh.

所以这就是。

So that's that's

另一种奇怪而不同寻常的情况。

another kind of weird Unusual.

你知道狄俄尼索斯和苏格兰的关联吗？

Do you know about Dionysus' association with Scotland?

不知道。

No.

所以，在十二月，位于因弗基辛的当地牧师组织了一场酒神狂欢。

So, in December, and that's in Inverkeithing, the local vicar organized a Dionysian, revel.

真的吗？

Did he?

他劝说村里的妇女们和他一起参加某种酒神仪式

Persuaded the women of the village to join him in a Dionysian rite or some

之类的。

such.

然后发生了什么？

And what happened?

一群基督徒把他杀死了。

A Christian mob killed him.

是的。

Right.

嗯，也算合理。

Well, fair enough.

我的意思是，是的。

I mean Yeah.

我认为如果你这样做，就是在自找麻烦。

I think you're asking for trouble if you

十三世纪的苏格兰举行酒神狂欢。

Thirteenth century Scotland holding Dionysian revels.

我认为，是的，这确实有风险，事情真的会失控。

I think, yeah, you're it's a risk, isn't the part really goes off.

确实是这样。

It's Yeah.

所以。

So.

所以，无论如何，狄俄尼索斯，这还不够。

So, anyway, Dionysus, that wasn't enough.

苏格兰的投票不足以让他成功。

The Scottish vote wasn't enough to get him over the line.

事实上，他最终输得相当轻松。

In fact, he lost very comfortably in the end.

所以他的生涯就此结束了。

And so that was the end of him.

而另一位半决赛失利者，考虑到你所表明的立场，我猜会让你非常遗憾，那就是伊西斯。

And the other semifinal loser, to your great sorrow, I imagine, given your stated position, was ISIS.

不。

No.

我没什么问题。

I was I was fine.

我只是希望她能进入半决赛。

I just wanted to see her get to semis.

伊西斯是一位非常非常有趣的女神，对吧？

Isis is a very, very interesting god, isn't she?

她是一位强大的神。

She's a massive god.

苏珊是埃及神系中的一位神祇，他们称之为万神殿。

Susan, she's a god who's part of this Egyptian kind of pantheon as it were, not they call it pantheon.

她是奥西里斯的妻子，也是荷鲁斯的母亲。

She's the wife of Osiris and the mother of Horus.

但随着时间推移，她的地位变得越来越重要。

But as time goes on, she becomes bigger and bigger.

她就像苹果公司或微软一样，成为众神中的巨头。

She becomes a sort of Apple computers or a Microsoft Yeah.

在众神之中。

Of gods.

她就像一家初创公司，最终成长为一个帝国。

She's she's a startup that has just gone, you know, become imperial.

因此到了古埃及晚期，托勒密时期，她已经成为地中海地区绝对的巨头之一，就像可口可乐或李维斯一样。

So that by the end of the sort of sort of ancient Egypt, the Ptolemaic period, she is one of the Mediterranean's absolute you know, she's the Coke or the Levi's.

她是一个庞大的品牌，对吧？

She's a colossal brand, isn't she?

她确实是。

She is.

她出现在整个罗马帝国各地。

And she appears all over the Roman Empire.

在普鲁斯的《金驴记》中，有一段充满狂喜的描述，这是唯一一部完整保存下来的古罗马小说。

And there's a kind of ecstatic account in the Golden Ass by Puleius, which is the the the only kind of surviving Roman novel in its entirety.

故事的主角是斯基·卢修斯，他被变成了驴子，整部小说中他都以这种形态活动。

And this is Sky Lucius who gets turned into an ass, and that's what he does throughout the course of the novel.

到了结尾，他向伊西斯祈祷，她将他恢复成了人类的形态。

And then at the end, he he prays to, to Isis, and she turns him back into his human shape.

之后，他成为了一名狂热的伊西斯信徒。

And he then goes on to become a massive devotee of the of ISIS.

他剃光了头发，并为此感到无比自豪，四处光头示人。

And he shaves his head and is absolutely proud to to go around bald.

真不错。

Nice.

而在结尾时，他又一次看到了伊西斯的异象。

And then at the end, has another vision of ISIS.

虽然我们没有得到这个异象的完整细节，因为这是秘密，不能泄露。

And although we're not given the full details of this because this is a secret, but you you can't reveal it.

这 literally 是一个神秘仪式。

It's it's literally a mystery.

是的。

Yeah.

然而，这非常引人入胜，因为它可能是极少数——甚至可能是唯一一个——让我们感受到罗马时期信徒对神明那种狂喜式认同感的文本。

Nevertheless, it's it's fascinating because it's one of the very, very I think maybe even the only one, really, that gives you a sense of kind of the ecstatic sense of identification that a worshipper of a god in, you know, the Roman period might was capable of feeling.

因此，它与那种将崇拜活动仅仅视为纯粹 civic 和交易性行为的观点形成了对比。

So it's it's a counterpoint to the the sense of of cults as being purely, you know, civic and transactional.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，我们所听到的关于伊西斯的故事，以及为什么伊西斯、奥西里斯、阿努比斯和塞特这些神祇比其他埃及神祇更具影响力，是因为它由公元二世纪的希腊作家普鲁塔克讲述，并且他基本上将其呈现为一种类似希腊神话的叙事。

And and I think that, the story that we get that we get told about Isis and the reason why Isis and Osiris and Anubis and Seth and all those guys kind of do have a cut through in a way that perhaps other Egyptian gods don't is that it it gets told by Plutarch, the Greek writer of the second century AD, and and he basically gives it to us as the equivalent of a kind of, you know, Greek myth.

所以他给我们讲述了伊西斯与奥西里斯结婚的故事。

And so he gives us this story about how Isis is married to Osiris.

奥西里斯的兄弟赛特杀死了奥西里斯。

Osiris' brother Seth kills Osiris.

阿努比斯随后为他进行了防腐处理。

Annabas then embalms him.

赛特将装有奥西里斯的棺材放入尼罗河，棺材顺流而下，最终漂到了腓尼基。

Seth sends the, the the coffin that he's been put into flowing down the Nile ends up in Phoenicia.

德墨忒尔找到了棺材，救活了奥西里斯，短暂地与他结合，怀上了荷鲁斯，随后奥西里斯前往冥界成为主宰。

Demeter goes and and and sources it, rescues Osiris, brings him back to life fleetingly, has sex with him, gets him Osiris gets her pregnant with Horus before going off to become lord of the underworld.

荷鲁斯长大后，将赛特驱逐出去。

Horus grows up and then kind of chases Seth away.

这是一个类似于希腊神话的故事。

And that's a story like we get in Greek mythology.

嗯，你和

Well, you And

总的来说，我们在埃及神话中很少看到这种内容，这就是为什么我认为它比希腊神话更难引起人们的共鸣。

by and large, we don't get that kind of stuff otherwise in Egyptian mythology, which is why I think it has less resonance with people than, say, Greek myths.

你刚才说错了一个词，我觉得这其实很有代表性，所以我没有纠正你，因为这非常有趣。

You made a a slip there, which I thought was really revealing, which is why I didn't correct it because it's really interesting.

你称她为得墨忒耳。

You called her Demeter.

啊。

Ah.

伊西斯和得墨忒耳已经被认为是

And Isis and Demeter have been identified

是的。

as Yes.

她们是相似的，对吧？

As similar, haven't they?

我的意思是，她们扮演的角色

I mean, they play a

相似的角色。

similar part.

那么，当伊西斯去寻找奥西里斯的坟墓时，她假装成一位保姆，为哪位王子服务？那是哪里？

Well, so what happens when Isis goes to get the to to source the the the tomb of Osiris is that she pretends to be a nurse maid, for the the prince of, where is it?

我认为是比布鲁斯或提尔，其中一个。

I think it's Byblos or Tyre, one of them.

对。

Right.

她想让提尔王子的儿子获得永生，于是她为他做准备，打算把他放进火里。

And she wants to give the son of the prince of Tyre immortality, And so she prepares him and is going to put him in the fire.

而她这么做时很意外，因此不得不暴露自己的身份。

And the you know, she's surprised doing this, so she has to reveal who she is.

还有一个非常相似的故事，讲的是德墨忒尔在世间游荡，寻找被冥王哈迪斯绑架的女儿珀耳塞福涅，当时她也……

And a very similar story is told of Demeter at the time when she's roaming the world looking for her daughter, Persephone, who's been abducted by Hades, the god of the dead, and taking

所以你觉得德墨忒尔的崇拜本质上是希腊人的？

So do you think the Demeter cult is basically the Greeks?

因为伊西斯崇拜显然更古老。

Because the Isis cult is obviously older.

希腊人是否通过商人之类的途径吸收了伊西斯崇拜，你觉得呢？

Have the Greeks probably through merchants or whatever picked up the Isis cult and and do you think?

很难确定，连希腊人自己也不确定。

Very difficult to know, and the Greeks themselves weren't sure.

关于希腊诸神与埃及诸神之间的关系，有很多理论。

So there are lots of theories about that, the relationship of the Greek gods to the, to the Egyptian gods.

希罗多德是第一个真正撰写埃及诸神的人，他明确指出，埃及诸神先于希腊诸神，希腊诸神只是埃及诸神的苍白回响。

So Herodotus, who's the first person really to write about Egyptian gods, absolutely clear that, the Egyptian gods come first, and the Greek gods are kind of pale echoes of the Egyptian gods.

而对我们来说，情况往往恰恰相反。

Whereas for us, it you know, it's often the other way around.

在我们的想象中，希腊诸神要生动得多。

The the Greek gods are much more vivid in our imaginings.

但这是因为史料的原因。

But that's because of the sources.

这并不是因为它们更

It's not because they're they're more

是的。

yeah.

所以我的答案是我不知道。

I so I don't know is the answer.

可能存在直接的影响，但我认为更重要的是，古代人更容易接受这样一个观点：本质上，所有人都在崇拜同一种神。

It it may be there's a kind of direct influence, but I think also it's the fact that, people in antiquity are prone to accepting that everyone essentially is worshiping the same kind of gods.

只是它们以不同的方式显现出来。

It's just that they manifest themselves in different ways.

奇怪的是，他们比我们更具包容性。

They're more ecumenical, weirdly, than than we are.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，如果你是一个希腊人去埃及，你会把阿蒙或拉识别为宙斯。

And so and so therefore, if you're a Greek going to Egypt, you're going to identify, say, Amun or Ra with Zeus.

你会把伊西斯识别为得墨忒耳，就像罗马人也会这样做一样。

You're going to identify Isis with Demeter, rather like the Romans do as well.

那么，托姆，有一个时期非常有趣，我们之前没有深入讨论过，那就是希腊人统治埃及时期的纯粹融合现象。

Well, then there's this period, isn't it, Tomwe, which is fascinating, which we haven't massively talked about, of pure sort of syncretism, when the Greeks are running Egypt.

当托勒密家族——这些马其顿希腊人统治埃及时，他们甚至刻意主动将希腊神和埃及神对应起来，因为这显然对他们有利。

So when the Ptolemaic family, the mass this these Macedonian Greeks are running Egypt, and then they they actually go out of their way politically to identify, you know, Greek gods and Egyptian gods because it obviously suits them.

这符合他们的帝国扩张计划。

It suits their sort of empire building project.

他们还创造了一位神祇：塞拉皮斯。

And they invent one, Serapis

是的。

Yes.

我们之前曾想过或许应该把塞拉皮斯包括进来，但最终没有包括。

Who we were thinking perhaps should should have been included, but but wasn't.

但他完全是人为创造出来的，融合了希腊和埃及元素的神祇。

But, I mean, he's completely completely made up kind of fusion of Greek and Egyptian elements.

但这引发了一个非常有趣的问题，不是吗？

But that raises a really interesting question, doesn't it?

这就像我们上一期播客讨论奥古斯都时提到的，把他纳入其中会改变我们对凡人与神明之间界限的看法——那种我们今天可能认为过于简化的划分方式。

That that that again, a bit like we were talking about Augustus on the last podcast about how including him sort of it it changes the way you think about the division between mortal and immortal, the sort of slightly simplistic way that we might think of it today.

我的意思是，显然他们并不觉得创造一个神有什么不对。

I mean, clearly, they don't think there's anything wrong with inventing a god.

我认为，正如我以前说过的一样，我们带着某种视角，我肯定还会再说一遍，

I think I think we bring a you know, and I've said this before, I'm sure I'll say

但我们带着基督教的视角，你会说，我们想象出了一种截然不同的观念。

it again, but we bring a Christian perspective, and we find a very imagined you would say that.

将所有这些神祇统称为异教神明，这种观念本身正是基督教的视角。

The the the very idea of kind of gathering all these together as pagan gods is a is a Christian perspective.

而且，正如我们在上一期播客中谈到的，神祇是如何变得‘死亡’的。

And, you know, in the last podcast, we we talked about how the the way in which gods become dead.

你知道，基督教就像一场辐射泄漏，把它们都消灭了

You know, Christianity is like kind of radiation leak killing them off

是的

Yeah.

还有伊斯兰教。

And Islam.

我们通过这种视角来看待它们，我想。

And we we see them through those through that prism, I think.

关于ISIS，最后再提一点。

And one last thing about ISIS.

ISIS非常具有政治意义，因为著名的克利奥帕特拉七世，她采用了‘新伊西斯’的头衔，并把自己装扮成伊西斯。

So ISIS is very political because Cleopatra the seventh, the famous Cleopatra, she takes the title, the new ISIS, and she dresses up as ISIS.

这不仅是宣示她统治合法性的部分，也是将自己与这个极其成功的崇拜联系起来。

And this is all part of proclaiming her legitimacy, but it's also linking herself to this incredibly successful cult.

而我们上期播客提到的屋大维、奥古斯都，则试图将这一点从人们的记忆中抹去。

And Octavian, Augustus, who we talked about in the last podcast, he tries to to sort of keep this out of mind.

把自己比作阿波罗。

Himself as Apollo.

是吗？

Does he?

我不知道这一点。

I didn't know that.

是的。

Yeah.

安东尼把自己与狄俄尼索斯联系在一起。

So Anthony had identified himself with Dionysus.

对。

Yes.

屋大维把自己与阿波罗联系在一起，而克利奥帕特拉则完全认同伊西斯。

Octavian identifies himself with Apollo, and and Cleopatra is going the full Isis.

但当他获胜后，他说别在罗马建任何伊西斯神庙，元老院对伊西斯崇拜也非常敌视。

But then when he wins, he he says, let's not have any Isis temples in Rome, and the senate is very hostile to the Isis cult.

这是因为人们认为这是两个埃及学派吗？

Is that because it's seen as two Egyptianists?

是的，确实如此。

It is Yeah.

有点东方化，而且确实如此。

Sort of orientalizing and Yeah.

但它确实存在。

But it comes it it's there.

我的意思是，到了公元69年，也就是尼禄之后四帝之年的末期，伊西斯的祭司已经遍布各地，他们卷入了一场打斗，最终导致卡皮托林山上的朱庇特神庙被焚毁。

I mean, by by, by the, the end of, say, by sixty nine AD, the year of the four emperors after Nero, there are priests of Isis everywhere, they get embroiled in a kind of punch up that ends up with the incineration of the Temple Of Jupiter on the capital.

所以，他们绝对是其中的一部分。

So, they're they're absolutely a part of it.

实际上，对伊西斯的崇拜一直延续到了六世纪伟大的基督教皇帝查士丁尼统治时期，他建造了君士坦丁堡的圣索菲亚大教堂。

Actually, the very the worship of Isis carries on into the reign of Justinian, the great Christian emperor of the sixth century who builds Hagia Sophia in Constantinople.

在菲莱岛上有一座伊西斯神庙，那位于埃及最南端，尼罗河中的一个岛屿，直到那时才被关闭。

There's a temple to Isis at Phylae, which is kind of, you know, right at the bottom of the the South Of Egypt, an island in the Nile, that's that's only closed then.

所以她持续了非常非常长的时间。

So she goes on a very, very long way.

非常长的时间。

Very long time.

你如何看待一些比较学者的观点，认为伊西斯与荷鲁斯的关系为圣母玛利亚与耶稣的关系铺平了道路？

And what do you think of this argument among some comparative sort of scholars that the relationship between Isis and Horus is sort of paving the way for the relationship between Mary and Jesus?

我确信。

I'm sure.

我的意思是，如果你看到伊西斯哺乳荷鲁斯的雕像，那显然是

I mean, I'm sure that that this if you're if you're having statues of of Isis suckling Horus, it's

那么，说基督徒是在剽窃这一点就不太合理了。

not a great leap then to and you're you know, it's it's it's it's not that Christians are kind of stealing it.

这只是因为，人们通过认同玛利亚所获得的情感满足，早已由一代又一代人通过凝视伊西斯而预先体验过了。

It's just that it's the kind of the emotional fulfilment that you get, I guess, from identifying with Mary has been prefigured by the emotional identification that generations to generations of people have had from looking at Isis.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，这种母亲与孩子的意象，我想，本来就存在，不是吗？

And this sort of the idea, I suppose, is just there in the isn't it, of the mother and child?

我的意思是，这已经是文化对话的一部分了。

I mean, it's just part of the cultural conversation.

好吧。

Okay.

所以，伊西斯，我的意思是，她在两场半决赛中处境类似。

So Isis I mean, it was a similar margin in two semifinals.

伊西斯也被淘汰了。

Isis also got knocked out.

说实话，她能打进半决赛已经很不错了。

I think, frankly, she did well to make the semis.

她非常有意思。

She's very interesting.

她确实是个有趣的神。

She's an interesting god, though.

她非常棒，我一点也不嫉妒她进入四强的位置。

She's very I don't I don't begrudge her her her place in the last four.

我觉得她很特别，而且实际上，能有一位来自希腊和北欧这些传统强国之外的神祇参赛，还跨越地中海被广泛崇拜，真是太好了。

I think she's a and I I think it was great actually to have somebody who from out of the sort of the traditional sort of superpowers of Greece and and the Norse world and somebody who, you know, worshiped across the Mediterranean and stuff.

那我们来谈谈决赛吧。

So let's get to the final.

雅典娜对阵奥丁。

Athena versus Odin.

我认为雅典娜是我们头号种子选手。

I think Athena was our number one seed.

显然，我们早就预料到会是这样的对阵。

So we clearly always saw this coming.

奥丁呢？我记得他好像是五号或六号种子，对吧？

Odin, I think can't I remember what he he was seeded about five or six, wasn't he?

我们先讨论谁？

Who should we do first?

我们先说奥丁。

Let's do Oden.

我们先说奥丁，因为他是亚军。

Let's do Oden since he was the runner-up.

是的。

Yeah.

奥丁被击败了。

So Oden was beaten.

结果非常接近。

It was very a very tight result.

一场非常激烈的比赛。

50 Tighting match.

52比48。

52, 48.

雅典娜开局就取得了领先。

Athena got off to an early lead.

奥丁虽然有所追赶，但还不够。

Odin ate into it by not by enough.

我们可以

We can

结果就是48比52。

And it was it was 48, 52.

所以

So

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，虽然差距很小，但角色反转了，因为我觉得奥丁其实有点占优势，是的。

I mean, very remain leave, But the role's reversed, because I think Odin had a bit of a lever kind of Yeah.

他啊，你知道的，是的。

He's, you know Yeah.

他 definitely

He definitely

他嘛，你知道的，他全身心投入于挖出自己的眼睛，然后

he's sort of, you know, he's all about plucking out his eye and

有点儿那样。

sort of.

他们都在这么做。

Which they they're all doing.

脱欧的核心地区。

The Brexit heartland.

嗯，他非常直率粗犷，不是吗？

Well, he's very sort of he's very red meat, isn't he?

奥丁？

Odin?

他是沃登或者沃坦。

He's he's He's he's Woden or Wotan.

塔西佗不是把奥丁等同于墨丘利吗？这看起来很奇怪？

Tacitus, didn't Tacitus equate him with Mercury, which seems very odd?

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，它们到处都是。

I mean, they're all all over the place.

我的意思是，以沃登的形式，当然，他的名字被用来命名了星期三。

I mean, the thing so in his form as as as Woden, of course, he's given his name to Wednesday.

是的。

Yeah.

星期三的祖先

Wednesday ancestor of

女王。

the queen.

西米德兰兹。

West Midlands.

还有女王的祖先。

And the ancestor of the queen.

是的。

Yeah.

那么，女王的祖先中谁是沃登的后裔呢？

Who is descended from Woden then among the queen's ancestors?

威塞克斯家族。

The house of Wessex.

是吗？

Is it?

是的。

Yeah.

所以，你知道，女王们可以追溯她们的祖先到阿尔弗雷德，而阿尔弗雷德又能追溯到库尔迪克，据说他是第一位威塞克斯国王。

So the queens, you know, trace their ancestry back to Alfred, and Alfred can trace his ancestry back to Kurdic, who's the first of the West Saxon kings supposedly.

是的。

Yeah.

而他可以将自己的血统一直追溯到沃登。

And he can trace his ancestry all the way back to Woden.

所以菲利普亲王是在第一轮被淘汰的，但他确实有家族关系参与了这场王室谱系的较量，这挺有意思的。

So Prince Philip was who'd got knocked out in the first round, he did have family connections in the tournament, which is nice.

他娶了一位女神后裔为妻。

Well, he married he married the descendant of a goddess.

是的。

Yeah.

这很好。

That's that's good.

这也是我个人不希望看到君主制终结的原因之一，因为我很喜欢这样的理念——有一位统治者，其血统可以追溯到神明。

And and that's one that's one of the reasons why I'd be sad to personally see the monarchy go is because I love the idea of having of being ruled by, you know, having a head of state who's descended from a god.

是的。

Yeah.

所以不是说这个，

So so not that,

他们有吗？

have they?

上帝在人间的代理人，但却是另一位神祇后裔的代表。

A god's vicegerent on Earth, but the representative of the descendants of another god.

所以马克龙自称是朱庇特。

So Macron Macron calls himself Jupiter.

是吗？

Does he?

但我们知道他确实是吗？

But we know that he's Does he?

是的。

Yeah.

他确实这么自称。

He does.

马克龙自称是朱庇特吗？

Does Macron call himself Jupiter?

是的。

Yeah.

他是这么做的。

He does.

我们怎么知道的？

How do we know that?

到处都是这样的说法。

It's all over the place.

天啊，我的天。

Oh my words.

法语。

French.

但是我们有，

But but we we have,

你知道，我们的国家元首是神的后裔。

you know, our head of state is descended from a god.

但沃登很无聊，因为我们对他几乎一无所知。

But Woden is quite boring because we don't really know anything about him.

等等。

So hold on.

奥丁。

Oden.

奥丁和沃登是同一个神。

So Oden and Woden, it's the same thing.

但奥丁是北欧人对他的称呼。

But but Odin is the name is the Viking name for him.

是的。

Yeah.

他挖出自己的眼睛，以换取智慧。

And he's eye plucking out, to make himself wiser.

是的。

Yeah.

他用长矛刺伤自己。

He wounds himself with a spear.

这非常像渔夫。

It's very sort of fisher.

他把自己吊在，吊在，

He hangs himself from a from from

一棵树上。

a tree.

是世界之树吗？

Is it Yggdrasil?

是的。

Yeah.

大概是。

Probably.

嗯，它是一棵没有根的树，所以人们都这么认为。

Well, it's a it's a rootless tree, and so people assume it is.

他在那里吊了九天九夜，从而获得了智慧。

And he hangs himself there for nine days, nine nine nights, and this wins him wisdom.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yes.

他获得智慧的另一种方式，是的。

And the other way he gets wisdom yes.

所以是挖出眼睛。

So the eye plucking.

是的。

Yeah.

所以是密米尔之泉。

So the the well of Mimir.

他挖出自己的眼睛，然后就能喝那里的水。

And he plucks out his eye and then is able to drink from the water.

所以他吸收了所有的智慧。

So he absorbs all this wisdom.