60. 穆罕默德

是的，确实有。

There there are.

所以在过去的几十年里，理解穆罕默德究竟是谁或什么的主要焦点，就是试图将他置于那个世界之中——波斯与罗马竞争的世界，同时也是一个充满基督教、犹太教甚至拜火教元素的世界。

So so this is over the past decades, this has been the main focus of trying to understand who or what Muhammad might have been, is to recognize is to try and situate it in that world, in the world of of Persia and and and Roman rivalry, but also a world that is absolutely teeming with Christian, with Jewish, even with Zoroastrian elements.

也许还存在一些其他传统，这些传统在其他地方已经消逝，但在巴勒斯坦以外的沙漠中依然留存。

And perhaps just perhaps with traditions that, have faded elsewhere but are still current in the in the deserts beyond Palestine.

因为如果你查看穆罕默德的传统传记，这些在九世纪到十世纪期间逐渐变得越来越详尽的记载，距离他生活的时代越远，内容就越加繁复。

Now because if you look at the traditional accounts of Muhammad, these biographies that that over the course of the ninth into the tenth century, they become more and more elaborate the further away you go.

所以很明显，越来越多无关的信息被添加了进去。

So they're clearly being, you know, extraneous information is being added to it.

就像亚瑟王传奇并不能真正反映晚期罗马不列颠或后罗马不列颠的历史背景一样。

A bit like Arthurian romances don't tell you anything really about the context of, you know, late Roman Britain or post Roman Britain.

同样，这些关于穆罕默德的传记也并不能提供太多关于晚期古典时代真实世界的可靠信息，它们并未真正扎根于那个可辨识的历史环境。

So likewise, these biographies of Muhammad do not tell you very much about they don't they're not really grounded in a recognizable world of late antiquity.

你知道，偶尔会出现一些基督教元素。

You know, there's the odd Christian.

偶尔也有一个犹太部落在麦地那被处理。

There's the odd you know, there's a tribe of Jews who get dealt with at Medina.

偶尔会提到希拉克略。

There's kind of mentions of Heraclius.

但总的来说，这些记载中很少出现我们能识别为晚期古代世界的元素。

But by and large, it's it's it's not a world that is rich in mentions that that we can recognize as being late antique.

因此，人们的兴趣在于试图将穆罕默德置于一个能解释他作为七世纪早期人物的背景中，而不是一个后来被建构出来的人物。

So the fascination is to try and situate Muhammad in a context that makes sense of him as an early seventh century figure rather than as someone who Right.

你知道，他实际上被塑造出来，主要是为了说明和合理化后来几个世纪的穆斯林统治者以及更广泛的穆斯林群体需要他去做的事情。

You know, has been constructed basically to to explain things and to justify things that the Muslim rulers and and indeed Muslims more generally in the in the the the later centuries need him to do.

那么，挑战就在于：你是彻底抛弃伊斯兰传统，只依赖他生前或去世后几十年内产生的文本呢？

And and so that's that's the challenge is do you do you jettison the Islamic tradition completely, and do you only draw on, you know, texts that originate within or or in the decades after his life?

还是可以在伊斯兰传统中提取某些元素，构建一个可行的模型？

Or are there elements within the Muslim tradition that you can you can draw on and construct a model for?

事实上，有一个关键问题，我认为它贯穿了整个难题，而这个问题只对非穆斯林而言才是个问题。

And and there is really there is one there's one key question, I think, which really underlies this the the whole problem, and it's only a problem for non Muslims.

对穆斯林来说，解释《古兰经》的来源并不是一个问题。

So for Muslims, it's not a problem to explain where the Quran comes from.

它来自真主。

It comes from God.

没错。

That's Yeah.

这就是穆斯林信仰的核心。

The essence of what a Muslim believes.

但如果你不是穆斯林，你就得解释《古兰经》究竟是从何而来的。

But if you're not a Muslim, you have to explain how it was that where does the Quran come from?

我认为，那种认为《古兰经》是在八九世纪逐渐形成的理论已经被彻底驳斥了。

The one's thesis that that the Quran emerged over the eighth and ninth century, I has been conclusively disproved, I think.

我认为很明显，《古兰经》是与一位名叫穆罕默德的人相关的。

I I think it's it's clear that the Quran is associated with someone called Muhammad.

尽管它需要一些时间才被编纂成书，但显然那些先知的启示共同构成了《古兰经》。

And although it takes time for it to to be compiled, it's it's clear that there are prophetic utterances that together will constitute the Quran.

因此，我认为《古兰经》确实为历史上穆罕默德所处的世界提供了证据。

So therefore, the Quran does provide, I think, evidence for the kind of world in which the historical Muhammad was living.

是的。

Yeah.

但当然，你仍然需要解释这些文本为何以及如何出现。

But, of course, you still have to explain how and why it is that these these texts emerge.

那么，汤姆，休息之后你来解释一下吧？

Well, Tom, why don't you do that after the break?

因为我想先说明一下，这是一个问题，因为我们除了传统的穆斯林说法外，没有任何其他关于《古兰经》来源的记载。

Well, because I just wanna I just wanna set up what that this is a problem because, there is no other account we have of where the Quran comes from except the traditional Muslim one.

我记得自己曾深深意识到，这对世俗历史学家来说是个多么大的难题。

And I I remember being struck by what a problem this is for secular historians.

我去过纽约大都会艺术博物馆的一个展览，主题是拜占庭与早期伊斯兰教。

Well, I went to an exhibition in the, The Metropolitan Museum in New York about Byzantium in early Islam.

展览中，拜占庭展区的说明牌都非常世俗化。

And the the, the the, you know, the labels, the, the the kind of cats in very you know, the Byzantine rooms were all very secular.

所以，对基督教实践的描述并不是从基督教的视角出发的。

So the descriptions of Christian practices were not from a Christian point of view.

它非常、非常客观，非常、非常世俗。

It was very, very objective, very, very secular.

然后你走到伊斯兰展厅，那里陈列着一些早期的《古兰经》抄本。

Then you got to the Islam room, and there was a collection of early Qurans.

墙上有一块告示牌介绍《古兰经》，上面说《古兰经》是上帝通过天使启示给穆罕默德的。

And there was a kind of billboard talking about the Qurans, and it said the Quran was revealed you know, the the revelations that were given to Muhammad by by god and that came to him by the angel.

就这些了。

And that was it.

没有任何背景说明。

There was no context.

也没有试图解释，对于那些不信上帝、不信天使，甚至不信穆罕默德是上帝先知的人来说，这究竟意味着什么。

There was no attempt to explain what this might mean for someone who doesn't believe in God or doesn't believe in angels or even doesn't believe in the specific fact that Muhammad is a prophet of God.

是的。

Yeah.

同样，你也会在一些非常权威的学者所写的书中发现这种现象。

And likewise, this this is something that you will find in books by very, very reputable academics.

所以有一本书是由格伦·鲍萨克撰写的，他是一位非常杰出的古代史学家，写了一本名为《伊斯兰的熔炉》的书，书中对宗教传统进行了精彩的分析。

So there's a book written by, Glenn Bausauk, very distinguished ancient historian who wrote a book called The Crucible of Islam, which is, you know, full of brilliant analysis of of religious traditions.

我的意思是，他对传统上关于耶路撒冷被波斯人攻陷以及罗马人夺回的叙述，做了非常出色的批判性分析。

I mean, he does a a brilliantly kind of skeptical account of the traditional accounts of of the fall of Jerusalem to the Persians and the way that the Romans take it back.

但当他谈到穆罕默德时，却直接断言：加百列带给穆罕默德的启示是在麦加降临的。

But when he's writing about Muhammad, he's got this bold line, the revelations that Gabriel brought to Muhammad came in Mecca.

他对此没有进一步解释。

Doesn't elaborate on that.

他只是说穆罕默德从天使那里获得了启示，然后就不再多说了。

Doesn't he's asking you know, he's saying Muhammad gets it from an angel and leaves it at that.

这让我想起我上那门课的时候，那门课叫‘查士丁尼与穆罕默德时代的近东’，我记得我对导师说过，不是关于伊斯兰部分，而是关于圣像的问题。

Well, this is a bit like when I did so when I did that course, the Near East in the age of Justin and Muhammad, I remember saying to my tutor, so not about the Islamic element, but actually about icons.

有一处史料提到，一幅圣像曾击退了一支军队之类的事情。

There was a point at which a source says an icon repelled an army or something.

我说，我当然不会相信。

And I said, surely I don't.

我不该相信这个。

I'm not meant to believe that.

对吧？

Am I?

我的意思是，我不相信圣像能击退军队。

I mean, I don't believe icons can repel armies.

我想，这情况类似，但更复杂一些。

And I suppose it's the same, but but a more fraught problem, I think.

我的意思是，作为历史学家，你不会对说圣像不能击退军队感到困扰，也不会相信耶稣能行神迹，或者相信《使徒行传》里的每一个细节。

I mean, you don't have a problem as a historian saying that an icon can't repel an army or you don't believe that Jesus could do miracles or you don't believe, you know, in the acts of the the the the every word of the acts of the apostles.

但历史学家要对早期伊斯兰教持怀疑态度就更困难了，因为你担心会冒犯别人。

But it is more difficult for a historian to say that of early Islam because you're worried about, you know, giving offense effectively.

确实如此，但我觉得，这不仅仅是冒犯的问题。

Effectively, but also, I think it's not just offensive.

想想冒犯那些认为《古兰经》是来自上帝的启示的人。

Think upsetting people for who the Quran is the the revelation that's come from God.

如果你开始把《古兰经》放在历史探究的解剖台上，加以拆解和切割，

And if you start, you know, putting it on the the slab of historical inquiry and dissecting it and chopping it up and

是的。

Yeah.

那么你自然会触及到其他问题，这显然是一件令人压力重重的事。

Well, you'll get to get to other things, then then, obviously, that that that that's a stressful thing to do.

但我认为这并不能成为不去做的理由，因为我相信，事实上，大多数穆斯林都愿意接受，如果你不是穆斯林，那么你自然需要为《古兰经》的来源提出另一种解释。

But I think that's not not a reason not to do it because it I'm sure you know, I mean, I know for a fact that most Muslims are happy to accept that if you're not a Muslim, then, of course, you have to arrive at an alternative explanation for where the the Quran comes from.

我认为《古兰经》的来源有其解释，而且这些解释与穆罕默德密不可分，我们稍后在广告后会谈到这一点。

And I think it's an I think there are explanations for where it comes from, and I think they're not divorced from Muhammad, so we'll come to that after the break.

是的。

Yeah.

我们广告后回来继续。

Let's come back after the break.

欢迎回到《历史其余部分》。

Welcome back to The Rest is History.

我们正在讨论穆罕默德的生平和早期伊斯兰教。

We are, talking about the life of Muhammad and early early Islam.

汤姆·荷兰，你在广告前提出了关于《古兰经》来源的问题。

And Tom Holland, you posed before the break this question about the Quran and where the Quran comes from.

目前存在一些《古兰经》残片，已经经过碳年代测定。

So there are Quranic fragments on there, which have been carbon dated.

我认为其中一份在伯明翰。

So there is one in Birmingham, I think it is.

让我

Let me

拿一下我的笔记。

get my my notes.

伯明翰残片的年代不晚于六月左右。

The Birmingham fragment is no later than the June or so.

德国蒂宾根有一个人，六月或者六月左右。

There's someone in Tubingen in Germany, June or June.

所以我们知道，某些《古兰经》的元素早在那时就已存在，但

So we know that something that elements of the cloud But

你看，即使这些日期也存在问题，因为那只是最晚的日期。

you see, even even they even they are problematic because that's the that's the latest date.

是的。

Yeah.

更早的日期，你知道，可以追溯到公元六世纪。

The earlier dates, you know, are well into the sixth century.

也就是在穆罕默德 supposedly 出生之前。

So before supposedly Muhammad has been born.

所以这确实是个问题。

So that's that's a problem.

而显而易见的解释是，被检测的是经卷的羊皮纸，而不是墨水。

And the obvious suggestion would the obvious solution to that is that it's it's the manuscript, you know, the parchment that's being tested, not the ink.

所以，是的。

So Yeah.

这可能是碎片。

This could be fragments.

问题是，当你试图在这个领域中寻找绝对的确定性时，就像在流沙中跋涉。

The the problem is whenever you are trying to find absolute kind of solidity, absolute certainty in this field is it's like wading through through sinking sands.

每次你以为找到了坚实的地面，它又会再次塌陷。

And every time you think you found kind of solid ground, you found it giving it away again.

它又会再次塌陷。

It it gives away again.

但历史学家们研究

But historians of

《古兰经》的人普遍认为，对吧？《古兰经》是被正式确立下来的。

the Quran generally believe, don't they, that the Quran was, as it were, sort of enshrined.

它后来被固定下来了，可以说是定型了。

It was it was it was set in stone, as it were, later.

其中有一些片段可能源自不同版本的同一段落，例如在文本的不同位置，这些文本在穆罕默德去世后某个时候被修改过。

That there was there are bits of it that possibly come from there were different versions of the same passage, for example, at different points in the text, that the text was edited at some point after Muhammad's death.

这一定是事实。

That must be the case.

关于《古兰经》是如何以及为何以如今的形式出现的，不同版本的数量可能和撰写相关历史的史学家数量一样多。

There are probably as as many different versions of of how and why the Quran emerged the way it did as there are historians writing about it.

事实上，我早就料到会提到这一点，所以我准备了一本名为《历史背景中的古兰经》的书。

In fact, I I thought that this would come up, so I armed myself with, a copy of a book called the Quran in its historical context.

这本书由早期伊斯兰研究的权威学者弗雷德·唐纳撰写，他就在芝加哥大学。

And it's the it's an introductory essay by the the great scholar of early Islam, Fred Donner, who's at Chicago.

我来读一下。

I'll I'll read it.

这是一段话，但我认为值得读一读，因为这是这一领域一位被广泛认可的权威学者的观点。

It's it's a paragraph, but I think it's worth reading because this is the perspective of an absolutely, you know, accepted standard bearing scholar of this subject.

他开篇就写道：作为一门学术研究领域，古兰经研究如今似乎处于一片混乱之中。

And he opens it by saying, Quranic studies as a field of academic research appears today to be in a state of disarray.

我们这些研究伊斯兰教起源的人必须共同承认，对于《古兰经》的一些最基本问题，我们实际上一无所知，而这些基本知识在研究其他文本的学者中通常是理所当然的。

Those of us who study Islam's origins have to admit collectively that we simply do not know some very basic things about the Quran, things so basic that the knowledge of them is usually taken for granted by scholars dealing with other texts.

其中包括诸如《古兰经》是如何起源的这样的问题。

They include such questions as how did the Quran originate?

它来自哪里？又是什么时候首次出现的？

Where did it come from, and when did it first appear?

它最初是如何被书写下来的？

How was it first written?

它是用什么样的语言写成的？

In what kind of language was is it written?

它最初采取了什么形式？

What form did it take?

它的第一批听众是谁？

Who constituted its first audience?

它是如何在一代代人之间传递的，尤其是在早期阶段？

How was it transmitted from one generation to another, especially in its early years?

它是什么时候、如何以及由谁编纂成典的？

When, how, and by whom was it codified?

熟悉《古兰经》及其相关研究的人会知道，即使提出这些问题中的一个，也会立即让我们陷入深深的不确定性，并可能引发激烈争论，这

Those familiar with the Quran and the scholarship on it will know that to ask even one of these questions immediately plunges us into realms of grave uncertainty and has the potential to spark intense debate, which is

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，

You know,

这么说吧，这简直是个荒唐的说法。

putting it It's a freaking way putting it.

对。

Yes.

所以

So

因为关于穆罕默德生平的传统叙述是我们唯一拥有的版本，一旦你质疑它或偏离它，实际上你就必须构建一个可能发生的模型。

because the traditional account of Muhammad's life is the only version that we have, the moment you you question that or you move away from that, essentially, you have to construct a model for what might have happened.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，你是在把一些零散的部分拼凑起来。

That, you know, you're you're you're putting fragments together.

你试图拼出一幅拼图，但其中很大一部分缺失了，你甚至无法确定这幅拼图原本的样子。

You're you're trying to put together a jigsaw puzzle in which large bits are missing, and you can't even be certain what the jigsaw puzzle originally looked like.

因此，关于《古兰经》是如何以及为何出现的，它与穆罕默德有何关联，以及穆罕默德与晚期古代背景的关系，有多少学者在研究它，就有多少种不同的说法，这并不奇怪。

And so it's not surprising that that, basically, there are as many different accounts of of how and why the Quran might have emerged and how that might relate to Muhammad and how Muhammad might relate to the context of late antiquity as there are scholars writing about it.

而这正是我认为研究这一课题格外具有挑战性的地方。

And and that is what makes this, I think, uniquely challenging to study.

我的意思是，这就是为什么我花了五年时间研究这个课题，我的脑子都快疼坏了。

I mean, that's why I basically the five years I spent on this, my brain ached

我整个研究期间都是这样。

the whole time I spent when that.

你写的那本书叫《剑之阴影》，对吧？

You finish so your book is the shadow of the sword, isn't it?

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，这是一本非常引人入胜的书，你还拍了一两部电视节目，我觉得。

You know, fascinating book, and you did a TV program or two programs, I think.

是两部节目吗？

Was it two programs?

只有一部。

Just one.

只有一部。

Just Just one.

作为配套节目。

Accompanying it.

你知道，这是一个极其丰富的主题，你显然从中获得了很大的乐趣，尽管这很有挑战性。

You know, incredibly rich subject that you you clearly had great, you know, fun doing, although it was a challenge.

但你一定从中获得了一种认识，不管多么临时——如果我现在逼你回答，你觉得这个故事究竟是怎样的？

But you must have come out of it with a sense, you know, however provisional that you you know, if I I put you on the spot and said, what do you think the story is?

你会说

What would

什么？

you say?

好的。

Okay.

我认为，穆罕默德是一位商人。

I think, I think that Muhammad was a merchant.

所以我认为这一传统部分是真实的。

So I think that that part of the tradition is true.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，我们正是通过你提到的这个非常早期的来源得知这一点的。

You know, we we we told that by this very early source that you mentioned.

他把自己视为亚伯拉罕先知谱系中的一员。

He sees himself as standing in the line of Abrahamic prophets.

所以他很可能受到犹太教在麦加或阿拉伯半岛传播的影响。

So he's probably got that because Judaism is floating around Mecca or the the Arabian Peninsula.

当时存在着一种思想的大杂烩。

It's the ideas of there's a sort of there's a sort of stew of ideas.

说到这个，

Come to that

也许稍后再说。

in a minute, perhaps.

说到这个，稍后再说。

Come to that in a minute.

我们可以确定的一些事情。

Things that we can be certain about.

我认为他进行了希吉拉，即一次迁徙。

He I think he he he engages in a Hijra, an exodus.

我认为，这种迁徙的理想对他的历史和《古兰经》都至关重要。

I think the the ideal of of the kind of emigration is is fundamental to his history and to, to the Quran.

所以我认为，叶斯里布是他建立社群的地方。

So I think that's that's I I think that, Yathrib is where he sets up a community.

是的。

Yeah.

这既是因为叶斯里布在当代史料中被反复提及，比如主教或其他人，他们并没有特别理由去撒谎或歪曲这一点；而且，在最早的穆斯林关于穆罕默德的传记中，保存了所谓《麦地那宪章》的片段，这些显然是非常早期的文本。

And that's both because Yathrib is is repeatedly mentioned in the contemporary sources by, you know, bishops or whoever who have no particular reason to to to lie about that, to distort that, And and also because, in, the earliest biographies, Muslim biographies of Muhammad, there are preserved fragments of of what's conventionally called the constitution of Medina, which is clearly very early texts.

这确实是一种建国式的举措。

That's a state building kind of exercise,

这确实是建国。

isn't State building.

所以我认为，叶斯里布显然居于核心地位。

So so I think that, Yathrib is clearly central.

正如你所说，一些铭文似乎确实与穆斯林关于这段历史的记载相吻合，这些铭文已经被发现了。

As you said, there are inscriptions that do seem to kind of tie in with with some of the Muslim accounts about this that have been found.

我认为，这个社群当时有意扩张。

I think that this community, was interested in expanding.

我认为它具有一种后圣经时代的愿景，并致力于传播。

I think it had a kind of, a a a kind of post biblical vision that it was interested in spreading.

我认为穆罕默德领导了对巴勒斯坦的入侵。

I think Muhammad led the invasion, of Palestine.

我认为他去世后，遗体被带回了麦地那。

I think that he died, and I think his body was taken back to Medina.

然后他基本上被遗忘了一段时间，我们稍后可能会探讨其中的原因。

And I think that he then essentially got forgotten for a bit, and we'll come to the reasons why for that perhaps a bit later.

但问题是，如果他建立了这个充满圣经色彩的社群，他的圣经知识从何而来？

But but the the issue then is if he's lead if he's founding this this biblically infused informed community, Where does his knowledge of of the bible come from?

这些圣经传统至少可能是这样的，是的。

What would be at least these biblical traditions if Yeah.

正如传统所说，他在麦加长大，而麦加是一座完全的异教城市，远离基督徒和犹太人所在地，相隔千里。

As the tradition says, he's growing up in Mecca, which is an entirely pagan city, you know, a thousand miles away from where Christians and Jews are.

在我看来，穆罕默德在麦加长大的故事，就如同基督徒声称耶稣是童贞女所生一样。

And it seems to me that the story of of Muhammad growing up in Mecca or what the place we now call Mecca is the equivalent of Christians saying that Jesus is the son of of a virgin.

在这两种情况下，都是为了保护神圣的载体——对于穆罕默德而言，是神圣本质；对于耶稣而言，是避免被指控为骗子，比如耶稣其实是百夫长的儿子之类的，嗯。

That in both cases, it's an attempt to insulate the vehicle of the divine, in the case of Muhammad, the the, you know, the essence of the divine in the case of Jesus, from the the the charge that they these are frauds, that, you know, Jesus is the son of a centurion or something that Mhmm.

玛丽亚是以非常正常的方式怀孕的，或者穆罕默德，你知道，他受到所处世界环境的影响。

Mary got pregnant in perfectly normal manner, or or Muhammad that his you know, he's influenced by the context of the world that he's living in.

而之所以必须防范这一点，是因为这可能暗示《古兰经》中的这些元素源自穆罕默德所出生的更广阔世界背景。

And the reason why that has to be guarded against is because it might imply that these traditions, these elements within the Quran might have come from the context of the of of the broader world in which Muhammad has been born.

当然，这正是历史与信仰之间产生张力的地方。

Now that, of course, is you know, this this is where the tension between history and belief kinda locks horns.

因为如果你是信徒，那么当然，这一切都来自上帝。

Because if if you're if you're a believer, then, of course, it comes from God.

这正是你信仰的核心。

That's that's the essence of your belief.

但如果你不是信徒，那么当然，你会说：看看这段文本。

But if you're not a believer, then, of course, you know, you're gonna say, well, look at this text.

你知道，这里面有这么多元素。

You know, there there are all these elements.

它们显然源自基督教、犹太教，有时甚至更古老的传统。

They they clearly come from Christian, Jewish, often, you know, even older traditions.

然后你必须问自己，穆罕默德是如何以及为何吸收了这些元素？

And then you have to ask yourself, well, how and why did they did Muhammad come to to absorb them?

所以，其中一个明显的关键词，也是关键点，就是麦加，即麦加在其中所扮演的角色。

So so one of the words, obviously, the key things in this is Mecca, is the idea is is what what where Mecca fits in.

因为麦加是一个贸易城镇。

Because Mecca is a is a is a trading town.

它有集市。

It has fairs.

它有市场。

It has markets.

人们会前往那里。

It people go

但我们怎么知道这一点呢？

But how do we know that?

好吧，这至少是我们目前的指导性假设。

Well, this is our this is our guiding assumption anyway.

现在，像帕特里夏·克罗纳这样的历史学家指出，《古兰经》中有一个问题：穆罕默德在经文中提到他的敌人是那些种植葡萄藤、有椰枣树、养羊和牛的人，但这些在麦加很可能并不存在，这就成了一个问题。

Now one of the things that people like historians like Patricia Kroner pointed to in the Quran that they say they have raises questions is that Muhammad talks talks in in the Quran about his foes being people who have they they grow, you know, vines, they have date palms, they have sheep and cows and things like that, that basically people probably didn't have in Mecca, which is a problem.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yes.

这确实是个问题。

It is a problem.

因此，一些历史学家认为，这表明所有这些事件都发生在麦加的传统假设可能是错误的。

So some historians say, well, that suggests that the traditional assumption that all this is happening in Mecca must be wrong.

如果他们真的拥有这么多羊和牛，那事件发生地应该更靠北一些，这样就更接近巴勒斯坦和罗马世界，而那些思想可能正是从那里传来的。

That if they've got all these sheep and cows, it must be happening further north Well, the which would bring it closer to the world of Palestine and the Roman world where the ideas could be coming from.

尤其是橄榄树。

And particularly olives.

而且所提到的橄榄品种只生长在更靠近地中海的地区。

And the the kind of olives referred to is only grown kind of within the much closer to the Mediterranean.

所以这确实是个问题。

So that is so so that's a I think is a problem.

而且我认为，杰拉尔德·霍顿在一本颇具影响力的著作中提出，古兰经中提到的那些人所实践的‘什克’——即把神灵或天使与真主并列——是他们的罪过。

And I think also the the fact that it was argued by Gerald Haughton in a in a kind of epical book that people who are called the in in in the Quran, who practice what's called shik, which is kind of associating, deities or perhaps angels with with god, and this is their crime.

是的。

Yeah.

传统观点认为，这是多神崇拜，他们崇拜的是来自阿拉伯半岛异教的神祇。

And the tradition is is that this is paganism, that they are worshiping gods and goddesses from, you know, pagan Arabia.

霍顿的论点是，实际上，穆罕默德或先知，或《古兰经》的作者，是以新教徒称呼天主教徒的方式称他们为偶像崇拜者。

The Hortings argument is that, actually, Muhammad or the prophet or whoever the author of the Quran is is is calling them idolaters in the way that pro the the Protestants might call Catholics idolaters.

你知道，新教徒可能会称天主教徒为异教徒。

You know, Protestants might call Catholics pagans.

但这并不意味着新教徒和天主教徒都不是基督徒。

That doesn't mean that Protestant Catholics aren't both Christian.

他们显然是。

They they they clearly are.

所以这个论点是，《古兰经》实际上见证的是一场关于圣经中上帝的争论，焦点在于天使与上帝之间应有的关系究竟如何。

So the the argument is that actually what the Koran bears witness to is, essentially an argument about the biblical god that's over issues like should you know, to what extent what is the proper relationship of angels to to god?

是的。

Yeah.

而正是这一点让穆罕默德、先知，或 whoever 他究竟是谁，感到激动不已。

And that this is what Muhammad is or the prophet or whoever he is is getting exercised by.

因此，存在着一个亚伯拉罕宗教的世界，而这场争论本质上发生在这个体系内部，而不是将亚伯拉罕宗教输入到一个崇拜其他异教偶像的世界中。

So there's a world of Abrahamic religion, and that this is an argument within that, basically, rather than an importation of Abrahamic religion into a world where people are worshiping pagan idols of some other kind.

对。

Yes.

本质上如此。

Essentially.

这就引发了一些人们常问的问题。

And so that raises a couple of questions that people asked about.

我们的一些常驻学者，以及我们的图书管理员斯蒂芬·詹森，曾就穆罕默德的教义与基督教神学提出问题，而Sasscript则询问了犹太教与伊斯兰教之间的相似之处。

So some of our regularists, and one of our librarianists, Stefan Jensen, has asked about Muhammad's message and Christian theology, and Sasscript has asked about similarities between Judaism and Islam.

因此，无论是穆斯林还是非穆斯林，都显然能看出伊斯兰教与犹太教和基督教属于同一个宗教体系。

So it is perfectly obvious to anybody, Muslim or non Muslim, that Islam is is is in well, it's in the same sort of religious universe, shall we say, as Judaism and Christianity.

所以，穆斯林认为亚伯拉罕在其中扮演了角色。

So Muslims you know, Abraham plays a part.

摩西也扮演了角色。

Moses plays a part.

耶稣也扮演了角色，尽管穆斯林不认为他是上帝的儿子。

Jesus plays a part, although Muslims don't believe he was the son of God.

那么，你认为伊斯兰教是从哪个派别发展而来的呢？有一种观点认为它源自一个被称为犹太基督徒的派别，这个派别对我们的一些听众来说可能非常陌生。

So do you think well, first, do you think Islam do you think it's come out of I mean, there's an argument that's come out of this sect, which are called the Jewish Christians, which is a very sort of will seem very obscure to some of our listeners.

对穆斯林而言，伊斯兰教提供了一个评判犹太教和基督教是否被扭曲的准则。

Well, for for for Muslims for Muslims, Islam provides a template by which to judge whether Judaism and Christianity are corrupted.

因为耶稣、摩西和亚伯拉罕都被视为穆斯林。

Because is Jesus, Moses, Abraham are all Muslim.

他们都宣扬同样的信息。

They they they all preach the same message.

犹太经典和基督教经典与这一信息不符的程度，正反映了它们被扭曲的程度。

And the the degree to which Jewish scripture and Christian scripture no longer, accords to that is a reflection of the degree to which they've been corrupted.

因此，对穆斯林而言，你会逆着时间去评判，这显然不是历史学家通常使用的方法。

So for Muslims, you you you you judge kind of backwards through time, which obviously is not a technique that that historians generally use.

对历史学家来说，你手头有一部包含犹太和基督教元素的文本，这显然意味着它必须源自犹太和基督教的源头。

For a historian, the fact that you have a body of text with Jewish and Christian elements obviously means that they have to come from Jewish and Christian sources.

是的。

Yeah.

如今，古兰经中的犹太和基督教元素常常让成长于犹太教和基督教传统中的人感到困惑，这些元素似乎反映了许多非常古老的观念。

Now the the the the the Jewish and Christian elements within the Quran are are often quite confusing to those brought up in Jewish and Christian traditions, and they seem to reflect perspectives that are often quite ancient.

关于耶稣神性的争论，可以追溯到基督教的起源时期。

So the argument, I say about the divinity of Jesus is is one that goes right the way back to, you know, the beginnings of Christianity.

在古兰经中，你一再发现一些神学争论的痕迹，而这些争论在世界其他地方早已基本平息。

And again and again in the Quran, you find elements of theological battles that elsewhere in the in in the the world had had basically been settled.

但，汤姆，这就是为什么很难知道这些元素究竟来自哪里。

But, Tom so that's why it's that's why it's so hard to know where where these elements are coming from.

但我会说，对非穆斯林、对一位持怀疑态度的历史学家而言，这看起来完全是可以理解的。

But I would say that seems completely to a non Muslim, to a skeptical historian, that would seem completely explicable.

这是罗马世界的一个边缘地区。

This is a peripheral part of the Roman world.

这个世界其他地方都遭受了瘟疫的摧残。

It's a world that has been the rest of the world has been blighted by plague.

你知道，帝国经历了严重的创伤。

You know, the empire has suffered serious traumas.

叙利亚沙漠等地一直是圣人、教派等蓬勃发展的地区。

Syria deserts and so on has been a place where holy men and sects and things have always flourished.

在我看来，我们在谈论的这个时期末尾，出现这样的情况一点也不奇怪。

It would seem not in it not weird at all to me that at the end of the what are we talking about?

六世纪末，或者类似的时间。

The end of the sixth century or whatever.

七世纪初。

Beginning of seventh.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

当时各种各样的观念四处流传，这些观念在君士坦丁堡的人看来可能非常过时，比如耶稣实际上并不是上帝的儿子。

There are all kinds of ideas floating around that might seem very old fashioned to people in Constantinople, like Jesus was not actually the son of god.

但这些观念是极其、极其异端的。

But these are these are these massively, massively heretical.

而且，它们混淆了犹太教和基督教的传统。

And, also, they they confuse Jewish and Christian traditions.

在晚期古代，本质上发生了一个过程：拉比、主教和教父们纷纷挖沟筑垒，把人们从无人区拉回各自阵营。

And what's happened over the course of late antiquity essentially is a process of of both rabbis and bishops and church fathers digging trenches and pulling people back from the no man's land.

而《古兰经》似乎是一种消除了这些沟壑的文本，这些不同的传统再次交融在一起。

And what you seem to get with the Quran is a text where these trenches have been erased, and these different traditions are mixing and mingling again.

但你必须问，这些传统为什么突然之间又活跃起来了呢？

But you've got to ask, well, you know, how and why are these traditions suddenly kind of coming to life?

我的意思是，这就像发现了一个神学的侏罗纪公园。

I mean, it's like, you know, it's like discovering a a kind of Jurassic Park of of theologies.

你知道，这些本不该还存在的东西。

You know, these these they shouldn't really be around.

还有一个来自‘礼貌的鹦鹉’的问题，这名字起得真棒。

So and there's a question from polite parrot, splendidly named.

穆罕默德真的识字吗？

Was Muhammad really literate?

这是传统说法。

So this is the tradition.

《古兰经》中有一节经文暗示他可能不识字，但同样，这也可以被重新诠释。

There there's a verse in the Quran that that implies that he might be, but equally, it can be reinterpreted.

而《古兰经》体现的，是对文本的极大尊重。

And what you do get through the Quran is a massive respect for for texts.

是的

Yeah.

整个创造都被描述为一部文本。

The whole of creation is described as a text.

也许，你知道，学者们在《古兰经》中发现了死海古卷的痕迹。

And it it it may be that, you know, that that there are kind of echo people scholars have found echoes of the Dead Sea Scrolls, for instance, in the Quran.

你知道，人们是否在沙漠深处挖掘出这些古卷呢？我的意思是，人们

You know, are people digging up these scroll you know, are they finding scrolls in the the deserts beyond I mean, people

不是吗？

don't, is it?

这并不难。

It's not so difficult.

我的意思是，你难道感觉你正陷入丹·布朗的小说世界吗？但要弄清楚这真的很难。

I mean, can't you You feel that you're straying into Dan Brown territory with this kind of but it's it's very difficult to know.

而且，你知道，我认为，从根本上说，你只能举手投降，说：我觉得，我的意思是，想想

And, you know, I think, essentially, you have to kind of throw your hands up and say I mean, I think I mean, think

我的设想是，你知道，这个世界在某种程度上似乎已经失去了根基。

I mean, my scenario would be, you know, it's a very it's a it's a world that seems to have lost its moorings to some extent.

这是末日景象。

It's apocalyptic.

关于《古兰经》的另一点是，它也非常具有末日色彩。

The other thing about the Quran is that it's it's very apocalyptic.

这是一个末日世界。

It's an apocalyptic world.

感觉像是末日来临。

It feels like the end of days.

那两个长期以来一直主导着这个世界的大国，不仅在人们有记忆以来，甚至更久远的几百年里，都一直如此。

That the the two great powers that have that have really stretched this world for not just for as long as anyone can remember.

我的意思是，回溯数百年，这两股强大的力量正在陷入崩溃。

I mean, stretching back hundreds of years, these two great powers are in kind of meltdown.

发生了一场瘟疫，人们可能还记得，或者至少还记得那段经历。

There's been a plague which people can probably remember or is they can remember going.

他们记得这件事。

They can remember that.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，世界末日的感觉似乎近在咫尺。

I mean, so the end of the world feels like it's around.

正如你在我精彩的概述中提到的，穆罕默德是一位富裕女商人的商业代理人。

Muhammad is a as you said in your brilliant sort of overview, he's a business agent for a a well-to-do business woman.

他正在

He's

旅行。

traveling.

知道这一点。

Know that.

那太晚了。

That's late.

但我们知道他是个商人。

But we know he's a merchant.

但让我们假设他是。

But let's imagine that he is.

他在旅行。

We He's traveling.

他听到了很多不同的想法。

He's hearing a lot of different ideas.

他到了四十岁，你知道，要么他收到了神的启示——如果你是穆斯林你会相信这一点；或者如果你是持怀疑态度的历史学家、世俗历史学家，你会认为他把所有这些想法整合在了一起，这些

He gets to 40 and, you know, either he receives a divine revelation, which you believe if you're a Muslim or if you're a skeptical historian, secular historian, you think he puts all this together, all these ideas that

四处流传的想法。

are floating around.

他是一位先知。

That he is a prophet.

我的意思是，对此毫无疑问。

I mean, I think there's no doubt about that.

我认为他一定相信自己是先知。

I think he he must believe that he's a prophet.

很明显，他身边的人也认为他是先知。

And what's clear is that that the people around him think he's a prophet as well.

但有趣的是，时机也恰到好处，市场已经成熟，因为你知道，阿拉伯人一直是非常出色的机动骑兵，却从未统一过。

But there's also what's interesting is that that that the time is right, the market is there because you know, the the Arabs have always been brilliant mobile sort of cavalry, but never been united.

他们长期彼此争斗。

Spent a lot of time fighting each other.

他们曾长期充当罗马人和波斯人的雇佣兵。

They've been hiring themselves as effectively for the mercenaries, for the Romans and the Persians.

突然间，罗马人和波斯人都崩溃了。

Suddenly, Romans and the Persians have fallen apart.

如果阿拉伯人能够团结起来，围绕某种能超越他们分歧的事物凝聚在一起，那么整个世界就都是他们的了。

And if only the the Arabs can kinda get their act together and unite around something that makes them transcend their differences, you know, the world is their oyster.

我认为情况可能比这还要复杂。

And I think it may be even more complicated than that.

所以我认为，一些阿拉伯人可能直接受到穆罕默德教义的启发，但我觉得其他人只是顺势而为，趁机获取利益。

So I think that some of the Arabs may be directly inspired by Muhammad's teaching, but I think others may be you know, they're just kinda moving in and taking what they can get.

哦，你为什么不呢？

Oh, why wouldn't you?

我的意思是，巴勒斯坦就在那儿。

I mean, Palestine is right there

还有它所有的……

with all its yeah.

还有伊拉克、叙利亚也是如此。

Well, and so and so is Iraq, so is Syria.

你只是不断推进，突然间埃及就沦陷了，你会发现，就像煮过头的鸡肉，肉自己就从骨头上掉下来了。

And you kinda just move and you and and suddenly then Egypt's fallen, and you find that you've got you know, it's like kind of over boiled chicken falling off the bone.

就是，你知道的，你只是随手捡起来而已。

It's just, you know, you're just picking it off.

是的。

Yeah.

然后你必须解释这一切是如何发生的，因为这是一个没有上帝的旨意就不会发生任何事情的时代。

And and then you you have to explain how this has happened because this is an age where nothing happens without God wanting it to happen.

而阿拉伯人统治肥沃新月地带及其更远地区早期岁月中最引人注目的是，穆罕默德随后消失了。

And what's what's fascinating about the early years of of, the Arab rule of of the Fertile Crescent and beyond is that Muhammad then vanishes.

所以他从未被提及。

So he he he does not get mentioned.

他没有出现在经文中。

He doesn't appear on scriptures.

他没有出现在钱币上。

He doesn't appear on coins.

似乎没有人谈论他。

Nobody seems to talk about him.

接着发生的是，一场内战爆发了，人们基本上在为争夺帝国而战。

And then what happens is that, you have a civil war, and, basically, people are fighting over the empire.

谁将继承那象征神圣权威的衣钵，自封为上帝的宠儿、上帝的代理人？

Who's gonna who's gonna acclaim the mantle of you know, the sanct gods establish himself as god's favorite, god's deputy.

有一个叫伊本·祖拜尔的人，据称他占据了沙漠中某处的安拉之屋。

And you have a guy called Ibn, Ibn al Zubayr who occupy we're told occupies, the house of god somewhere in the desert.

内战中有一名叫伊本·祖拜尔的人。

And one of the guys in the civil war is a bloke called Ibn, al Zubayr.

根据同时代的记载，他曾来到南方一个穆斯林聚居的地区。

And we're told by a contemporaneous source, he came to a certain locality in the South where they're they're the, you know, the Muslims.

他们的圣所就在那里，他也住在那儿。

Their sanctuary was and lived there.

但并没有明确说明具体位置，只说是沙漠中的某个地方。

So it doesn't specify where it was, somewhere in the desert.

这座圣所在围攻中被摧毁了。

And this sanctuary gets destroyed in a siege.

伊本·祖拜尔继续战斗。

Ibn al Zubayr fights on.

圣所再次被摧毁。

The sanctuary gets destroyed again.

但到了某个时候，伊本·祖拜尔在伊朗的一位盟友发行了一枚硬币，上面出现了阿拉伯文文本中首次提及穆罕默德的内容。

But at some point, one of Ibn al Zubayr's allies in Iran issues a coin, and on that coin is the first mention of Muhammad that you get in an Arabic text.

这大约是什么时候？

So what date is this roughly?

这大约是六月，六月。

This is about June, June.

好的。

Okay.

通过这样做，伊本·祖拜尔能够宣称自己得到了神圣的授权，因为他可以说：我正追随真主先知的足迹。

And it by doing this, Ibn al Zubayr is able to claim a divine sanction for himself because he's able to say, I am following the footsteps of the prophet of God.

通过这一点，他立即提升了自己作为宗教领袖的地位。

And by doing that, he immediately dignifies his kind of sectarian role, basically.

与此同时，在巴勒斯坦、叙利亚，特别是耶路撒冷，还有另一个人叫阿卜杜勒·马利克。

Meanwhile, there's another guy in Palestine, in Syria, and and specifically in Jerusalem called Abdul Malik.

阿卜杜勒·马利克注意到了这一点，意识到宣称这种正统性非常有利，于是他将自己塑造为继承者，并建造了圆顶清真寺——这是第一座真正留存至今的早期伊斯兰建筑。

And Abdul Malik picks up on this and recognizes that, you know, it's great to lay claim to this mantle, and he casts himself as so he builds the Dome Of The Rock, the first kind of emergent Muslim building to have survived, really.

是的

Yeah.

上面有这些铭文，强烈反对三位一体，即反对耶稣是上帝之子、三位一体、三即一的观点，而是宣称穆罕默德是独一真主的使者。

And there are these inscriptions on it that are very anti Trinitarian, so opposed to the idea that, you know, Jesus is son of god, that one is three, three is one, proclaiming Muhammad as as this one god's prophet.

他也开始发行硬币，上面提及穆罕默德。

And he starts to issue coins as well that, that that mention Muhammad.

阿卜杜勒·马利克自视为真主的代理人、哈里发，显然极具自信，深信自己与穆罕默德一样是一位重要人物。

And Abdul Malik casts himself as, the deputy of god, the caliph, and seems you know, I mean, a man of of immense self confidence, pretty convinced that he is a significant figure as Muhammad himself is.

但他赢得了内战，击败了伊本·祖拜尔，确立了对阿拉伯帝国的普遍统治。

But he wins in the civil war, defeats Ibn al Zubayyah, establishes, you know, a kind of a a universal role over the rule over the Arab empire.

正是在阿卜杜勒·马利克统治时期，才开始大规模宣称穆罕默德是真主的使者。

And it's under Abdul Malik that you start to get the massive proclamation of Muhammad as a prophet of God.

这似乎标志着《古兰经》的编纂。

It seems the codification of the Quran.

这似乎也首次明确宣称我们现在所称的麦加就是麦加，是真主圣所的所在地。

It seems the the initial proclamation of the place that we would now call Mecca as having been Mecca, as having been the the site of the sanctuary of god.

所有这些元素的整合，都可以追溯到阿卜杜勒·马利克统治时期，从那时起，我们可以看到一种我们如今称之为伊斯兰教的体系开始形成，并奠定了此后一直延续的形态。

And all of this kind of package, it's from the reign of Abdul Malik that you can start to see something that that we will recognize as Islam emerging, and taking the form that, you know, that it it's had ever since.

而这正是

And this is

不过，汤姆，在那个时代，仍然会有人记得穆罕默德。

at the time though, Tom, when there would have been people who could remember Muhammad.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，如果他们年纪够大的话。

I mean, if they were old.

他们是非常年长的。

They were very old.

所以我们谈论的是，你指的是什么时候？

So we're talking about you're talking about what?

你说是六月吗？

June, did you say or so?

是的。

Yes.

所以如果穆罕默德在六月去世

So if Muhammad died in June

是的。

Yes.

所以他非常年长。

So he's very old.

可能还有一些老人记得他，或者

Could be some old people would or or

会有一些人的儿子，他们当然记得他。

there would be sons of people who certainly could have remembered him.

但同样，这样的人可能非常少。

But equally, they're probably very few.

因此，这就使得人们能够拥有一个相对更空白的画布，而不是原本可能有的那样。

And so that, therefore, enables, people to kinda you know, you have a slightly blanker palette than than you might otherwise have done.

你知道，在这个阶段，阿拉伯人还没有把东西写下来，或者即使写了，也没有保存下来。

You know, and this is this is the the Arabs at this stage are not writing stuff down, or if they are, it it hasn't survived.

他们没有写下任何记载。

They're not writing accounts.

所以这些都是口述的传说。

So it's these are all oral accounts.

而这是一个传统几乎可以从零开始的时代。

And this is an age when, basically, traditions can be started almost from scratch.

我的意思是，一个著名的例子是基督徒来到圣地，把各种地方都认定为摩西的灌木丛，你知道的，就是那个燃烧的灌木丛。

I mean, this is, you know, the famous example is Christians turning up in The Holy Land and kind of identify all these places as the bush, you know, the bush where Moses Yeah.

你知道的，燃烧的灌木，或者这栋房子是圣彼得住过的地方，诸如此类。

You know, the burning bush or, you know, this house is where Saint Peter lived or whatever.

犹太传统也发生了同样的事情。

The same thing happens with Jewish traditions.

琐罗亚斯德教的传统也是如此。

The same thing happens with Zoroastrian traditions.

似乎没有理由认为同样的事情没有发生在后来成为伊斯兰传统的事物上。

And there seems no reason why the same thing can't can't have happened with with what becomes Muslim traditions.

事实上，麦加的首次提及直到八世纪中期才出现，即便如此，它也被放在美索不达米亚肥沃新月地带的某个地方。

Because the truth is is that the first mention of Mecca isn't until the middle of the eighth century, and even then, it's placed somewhere in in the Fertile Crescent in Iraq.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而真主之屋的位置——显然极为重要—— presumably 是穆罕默德迁徙出发的地方， presumably 也是伊本·祖巴尔前往的地方。

And the location of the the house of god, which is clearly crucially important, is presumably where Muhammad went on Hijra from, is presumably the place that Ibn al Zubar is going to.

但我们被告知它被摧毁了。

But we're told it gets destroyed.

它被摧毁了两次。

It gets destroyed twice over.

如果它已被夷为平地，那么重建它，甚至将其重新定位到另一个地方——比如倭马亚家族（阿卜杜勒·马利克的家族）所在之地——就会变得容易得多。

So if it's been leveled, the task of rebuilding it and perhaps locating it somewhere else in a place that the the Emayids, the family from which, Abdul Malik comes from, becomes much easier.

我认为这并不构成一种蓄意的欺骗。

And I don't think that it would be a kind of deliberate fraud.

这就像奥林匹斯山一样，以前有很多山都被称作奥林匹斯，直到最后才确定我们现在所称的奥林匹斯山，或者亚瑟王的卡美洛。

It's just, you know, rather like, you know, Olympus was a place that kind of lots of identified lots of mountains before it settled on the mountain we now call Olympus or Camelot.

你知道的？

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

卡美洛的传说有很多版本。

Lots of occasions for Camelot.

但可能有很多地方都与穆罕默德有关联，有着不同的传统。

But there are lots of places lots of different traditions perhaps associated with Muhammad.

也许穆罕默德确实曾与后来成为麦加的那个地方有过联系。

Perhaps Muhammad did have an association with the place that comes to be Mecca.

但本质上，从穆罕默德生平到其后大约五十年的这段时期，一切都尚未定型，故事的细节仍待塑造，由某个人来构建和 molding 这个故事。

But, essentially, it's it's a time these decades from, you know, the lifetime of Muhammad through the kind of fifty years that follow are a period where everything is up for grabs and the concrete is not yet set and the guy who shapes and molds the story.

所以我想，这里有个问题：是否有人相当于圣保罗那样的人物？

So I think there's a question somewhere about, you know, is there someone who's equivalent of Saint Paul?

我的意思是，阿卜杜勒·马利克相当于圣保罗和君士坦丁。

I mean, basically, Abdul Malik is the equivalent of Saint Paul and Constantine.

他是那个确立穆罕默德作为上帝先知的人，这位上帝也认可了阿卜杜勒·马利克和阿拉伯人对整个帝国的统治，同时他还正式确立了穆罕默德的故事——他与圣地的关系，以及他与《古兰经》的关系——这些故事此后得以延续并流传下来。

He's the person who is establishing Muhammad as the prophet of a god who has also given his sanction to the rule of Abdul Malik and and the Arabs over the over the empire of the world, but who is also kind of canonizing the story of Muhammad, the story of his relationship to, to to a shrine, and the story of his relationship to the Quran in a way that will then endure and and pass down.

而早期的记载则被抹去了。

And the early, you know, the early accounts get erased.

在我们结束之前，我们已经聊了太久了吧。

Before we we've we've already talked for probably far too long.

但在结束之前，我们简单聊聊穆罕默德后来的声誉吧。

But before we come to an end, let's just talk a little bit about Muhammad's reputation later.

穆罕默德显然是一位在历史上影响深远的人物，不仅对穆斯林如此，对非穆斯林也是如此。

Muhammad obviously is is run you know, he he's a figure who has resounded through history, not just for Muslims, but for non Muslims too.

我知道你有几个很好的例子，是关于后来有人写过穆罕默德的。

I know you've got a couple of good examples of people who wrote about Muhammad afterwards.

比如卡莱尔，我想是你提到的例子之一，对吧？

So Carlisle, I think, is one of your examples, isn't it?

但在那之前，对于基督徒来说，他们并不认为穆罕默德是先知或一个不同宗教传统的创立者。

Well, before that, for for Christians, they have no sense of Muhammad as as a prophet or a founder of a a different religious tradition.

他们把他看作一个分裂者。

They see him as a as a schismatic.

所以在但丁的作品中，这就是他的命运。

So in in Dante, that's that's the fate.

他被判处被撕成碎片。

He's sentenced to be torn to pieces.

被撕成什么碎片？

At what to to pieces again?

汤姆，人们是什么时候不再把伊斯兰教看作某种……基督徒，或者说罗马人眼中的东西？他们是什么时候不再把伊斯兰教看作那样了？

At what point, Tom, did people stop thinking of Islam as a sort of did Christians, sort of Romans at what point did they stop thinking of Islam?

因为最初，他们显然把伊斯兰教看作一种奇怪的犹太异端。

Because at first, they clearly thought of Islam as this sort of weird Jewish heresy.

没错。

Exactly.

但到底在什么时候，人们开始认为它不是一个附属的宗教，而是一个拥有丰富传统的独立宗教呢？

But at what point do they they say, it's not it it's a religion in its own right that's got a rich tradition and all this sort of stuff?

是的。

Yeah.

这要追溯到早期现代时期的开端。

It's into the beginning of the early the early modern period.

随后在维多利亚时代，人们对穆罕默德产生了浓厚兴趣。

And then through the Victorian period, people get fascinated by Muhammad.

所以正如你所说，卡莱尔写了一部他的传记，将他奉为伟人的典范。

So you as you say, Carlisle writes writes a life of him and kind of enshrines him as the model of a great man.

是的。

Yeah.

此外，还有其他历史学家尝试采用‘生平与时代’的研究方法，将穆罕默德置于他所处的时代背景中。

And and then you also have other other historians who who kind of try and do the life and times style approach, so putting Muhammad in the context of the age.

但正是在这一时期，出现了关于他作为麦加商人、生活在繁荣商业城市的各种传说，这些后来被穆斯林学者所采纳。

But that's where you get all the traditions of him as a merchant living in Mecca as a kind of great merchant city and all this kind of thing, which then gets picked up by by Muslim scholars.

因此，如今穆罕默德的形象在某种程度上是西方化的。

So there's a sense in which the the model of of Muhammad today is quite a a westernized one.

当然，有许多穆斯林意识到这一点，并希望回归原始，剥离掉那些附加的东西，就像用去漆剂一样。

And there are lots of Muslims, of course, who recognize that and who want to go back to an original, you know, strip away, you know, get out the paint stripper.

但有一位名叫基塔·阿里（Keita Ali）的学者对这种现象给出了精彩的描述，他写了一本关于穆罕默德后世影响的精彩著作，探讨了穆斯林和非穆斯林如何理解他。

But there's a there's a brilliant description of what they're doing by a scholar called Keita Ali who's written a wonderful wonderful book about the afterlife of Muhammad and the way that both Muslims and non Muslims have understood him.

书中提到，原本具有象征意义的文本逐渐被当作字面意义来解读。

And it says about the text written symbolically came to be read literally.

我认为这正是问题所在：在穆斯林传统中，关于穆罕默德的许多内容如今都被当作纯粹的文学性、字面性、历史性的叙述来接受。

And I think that's that's the problem, is that there's so much about Muhammad that gets is now taken as a kind of literary literal historical account in the Muslim tradition.

然而事实上，在伊斯兰历史的大部分时间里，穆罕默德是上帝所钟爱的人。

Whereas, in fact, it it for most of of of Islamic history, Muhammad is the you know, he's the beloved of God.

他之所以被爱，正是因为他是这样的人。

He's the the the man who that's why he's loved.

而试图将他视为历史人物的做法，更多是西方的产物。

And the kind of attempt to see him as a historical figure is much more of a Western project.

所以我认为那里存在一种张力。

So there is a kind of tension there, I think.

而这种张力显然主要集中在西方国家。

And it's one that obviously is focused in Western countries.

这不就是寻找历史中的耶稣吗？

It's quest for the historical Jesus, isn't it?

对我来说，这非常相似。

It's very it's not dissimilar to me.

是的。

Yes.

你瞧，试图将基督历史化。

You know, the attempt to historicize Christ.

从某种意义上说，整个传统其实是基督教式的，因为它源于基督教希望从历史角度理解耶稣和《圣经》的诉求。

And and so that whole tradition in a way is a kind of Christian one because it's bred of the Christian desire to to make sense of Jesus and the Bible historically.

然后人们将这些方法应用到伊斯兰传统中，这正是为什么我认为，它不可避免地会引发穆斯林的反感，因为你引入了一种外来传统。

And people then using those techniques then apply it to the Muslim tradition, which is why I I mean, inevitably, I think it kinda can raise hackles among Muslims because you're applying an alien tradition.

我始终对你有一种敬畏，无论话题是什么，你都能无缝地提出一个令人信服的论点，把一切都归结到你那本关于基督教传统的杰出著作《主宰》上。

I'm permanently in awe of your ability to, no matter what the subject, to seamlessly make a very convincing argument that it all comes back to to your excellent book, Dominion, about the Christian tradition.

你又来了。

There you are.

我已经替你做了宣传。

I've done the plug for you.

谢谢。

Thank you.

如果我能找到一种方法，把所有话题都联系到20世纪70年代哈罗德·威尔逊的第二个首相任期就好了，但我……

If only I could find a way to link all subjects to the second premiership of Harold Wilson in the nineteen seventies, but I

当然，当你将来写一本关于撒切尔夫人执政后期以及梅杰执政时期著作的时候。

But of course, when when when and if you come to write your book on the latter years of the Thatcher premiership and into the major premiership.

我希望你能写这本书。

If you I hope you'll do that.

到那时，关于这种关系的争论当然会——是的。

Then, of course, debates over the relationship Yes.

从历史上的穆罕默德到人们对他如何理解或误解

Historical Muhammad to to how people have interpreted or misinterpreted him

是的

Yeah.

完全成为当代英国历史的一部分，因为你有那些经文，还有

Absolutely becomes a part of contemporary British history because you've the stanic verses and you've got

你就是这样做的。

You do this.

接着往下说。

On from that.

同样的事情。

Same thing.

你也会参与到这个引人入胜的话题中来。

You you too will engage with this fascinating topic.

寻找历史上的玛格丽特·撒切尔。

The quest for the historic Margaret Thatcher.

嗯，这个宗教话题我们改天再聊吧。

Well, that's a religious subject to turn to on another occasion.

对。

Right.

希望你们喜欢这次内容。

I hope you enjoyed it.

我们非常期待听到你们的评论。

We'd love to hear your comments.

下次我们做什么呢，汤姆？

What are we doing next time, Tom?

我想我们要讲《大宪章》。

We're doing Magna Carta, I think.

所以约翰王的支持者们对这个话题肯定会有强烈看法，希望我们不会因此被封杀。

So King John's partisans will have very strong views about that, and let's hope we don't get canceled for it.

好的。

Alright.

再见。

Bye bye.

拜拜。

Bye.

谢谢收听《历史的余音》。

Thanks for listening to the rest is history.

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网址是 restishistorypod.com。

That's restishistorypod.com.