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This episode is presented by Adobe Express, the quick and easy create anything app.
那是什么意思？
What does that mean?
假设你需要制作一份演示文稿、视频、社交媒体帖子或传单。
Well, say you need to make a presentation or a video or a social media post or a flyer.
对一些人来说，当然也包括我，这听起来令人望而生畏。
To some, certainly to me, that sounds intimidating.
但汤姆，借助Adobe Express直观的功能，如模板、生成式AI和实时协作，现在从未如此简单。
But Tom, with Adobe Express's intuitive features like templates, generative AI and real time collaboration, it has never been easier.
Adobe Express。
Adobe Express.
免费试用。
Try it for free.
在App Store中搜索Adobe Express。
Search Adobe Express in the App Store.
所以，汤姆，我们有一个令人难以置信的激动人心的消息要告诉北爱尔兰和爱尔兰共和国的听众，对吧？
So, Tom, we have some incredibly exciting news for our listeners in Northern Ireland and The Republic Of Ireland, don't we?
确实如此，多米尼克，因为明年四月我们将在贝尔法斯特、都柏林和科克举办活动，讲述泰坦尼克号的悲剧故事
We absolutely do, Dominic, because we are going to be in Belfast, in Dublin, and in Cork next year in April, and we will be talking about the tragic story of
泰坦尼克号。
Titanic.
因此，我们将在4月17日星期五在贝尔法斯特的水上音乐厅登台。
So we will be on stage in Belfast at the Waterfront Hall on Friday, April 17.
我们将在4月18日星期六在都柏林的会议中心，以及4月20日星期一在科克的歌剧院演出。
We'll be in Dublin at the Convention Center on Saturday, April 18, and in Cork at the Opera House on Monday, April 20.
我们‘历史其余部分’俱乐部的忠实会员现在就可以购买门票了。
Tickets are on sale now for our beloved members of the Rest is History Club.
如果你想要抢先买到票，现在就去 restishistory.com 加入‘历史其余部分’俱乐部吧。
So join the Rest is History Club at the restishistory.com now if you want to snap your tickets up early.
门票将于周四，即2025年9月25日上午9点，向所有人开放购买，网址是 restishistory.com。
The tickets will then be available to purchase for everyone else at the restishistory.com from Thursday, that's the 09/25/2025 at 9AM.
所以，想要亲临贝尔法斯特、都柏林或科克的现场，请前往 restishistory.com 购票。
So for your chance to see us on stage live in Belfast, Dublin, or Cork, simply head to the restishistory.com to get your tickets.
当瑞亚即将生下她最小的孩子——伟大的宙斯时，宙斯前往了克里特岛。
Rhea, when she was due to bear the youngest of her children, great Zeus traveled to Crete.
在那里，她趁着迅疾的黑夜抱着他，将他藏进一座难以接近的洞穴，深埋于神圣大地的秘密之处，在那林木茂密的埃该山中。
There she came carrying him through the swift dark night, and taking him in her arms, she hid him in a cave hard of access, down in the secret places of the numinous earth in the Aegean Mountain with its dense woods.
随后，她用襁褓裹住一块大石头，把它交给了她的丈夫克洛诺斯，那位天神之子。
Then she wrapped a large stone in swaddling clothes and delivered it to her husband, Cronos, the son of heaven.
克洛诺斯用双手接过石头，吞进了肚子里，这个残忍的家伙竟未察觉，此后他腹中的并非石头，而是他的儿子——这个孩子终将凭借力量击败他，将他从至高王座上驱逐，取而代之成为不朽神祇之王。
Seizing it with his hands, Cronos put it away in his belly, the brute, not realizing that thereafter, not a stone, but his son remained, secure and invincible, who before long was to defeat him by physical strength and drive him from his high station himself to be king among the immortals.
所以，汤姆，各位女士先生们，这是一个非常著名的故事。
So, Tom, and ladies and gentlemen, that is a very famous story.
这个故事讲述的是宙斯——被希腊人奉为天界之王、天地之主——如何在婴儿时期幸存下来，躲过父亲克洛诺斯想将他吞食的企图。
It's the story of how Zeus, who is the god worshiped by the Greeks as the king of the heavens, the lord of heaven and earth, how he managed to survive when he was a newborn baby, and to evade his father, Cronos' attempts to devour him.
汤姆，这绝对是标准的希腊神话，对吧？
And, Tom, that is absolutely textbook Greek mythology, isn't it?
这基本上是一场庞大的家族内斗，极其暴力，充满了各种诡计和 yeah。
It's basically a fam massive family feud, horrendously violent, a lot of kind of Tricks and yeah.
某种欺骗和诡计。
Sort of deception and tricks.
没错。
Exactly.
这就是希腊神话中我觉得当你还是孩子时特别喜欢的那一面，比如忒修斯和弥诺陶洛斯、珀尔修斯之类的。
That's the side of the Greek myths that I think when you're, you know, when you're a child reading them, you love, like, Theseus and the Minotaur and the Perseus and whatnot.
但很快，你就会意识到这种黑暗的暗流。
But quite soon, you become aware of this dark undercurrent.
而我一想到希腊神话，就总是联想到这种潜伏的暴力，以及弑父、杀兄之类的事件。
And that's what I always associate with Greek mythology, this sort of simmering violence and sort of patricide and fratricide and so on.
但我
But I
我认为在某种程度上，儿童版的希腊神话史里也有这种元素。
think to a degree, you get that in the kind of children's histories of Greek myth as well.
我的意思是，你感受到神的存在、英雄的存在，还有各种怪物和可怕的事情正在发生。
I mean, you have this sense that there are gods, that there are heroes, that there are all kinds of monsters, terrible things going on.
这种感觉即使在你还是孩子时也具有吸引力，我认为成年后更是如此。
And that is part of the appeal even when you're a child, I think, and absolutely when you're an adult.
如果你对这个感兴趣，那太棒了，因为我们有大量内容，因为我们即将推出四期关于希腊神话的节目。
And if that is your your thing, then brilliant because we've got loads of them because we're gonna be doing four episodes on the Greek myths.
太棒了。
Oh, fantastic.
但是，多米尼克，我们不仅仅是要讲述希腊神话的故事，因为这是一个历史播客。
But, Dominic, we're not just gonna be telling the stories of the Greek myths because this is a history podcast.
因此，除了讲述一些经典神话外，我们还将探索这些神话的起源、它们是如何演变的，以及最重要的是，它们能告诉我们关于古希腊的哪些信息，是的。
And so as well as telling some of the kind of the classic myths, we're gonna be exploring where the myths come from, how they evolved, and I guess above all what they might tell us about ancient Greece, this Yeah.
这个孕育了这些神话的惊人文明。
Astonishing civilization that gave birth to them.
那么，我们为什么不从你选择的开篇故事开始呢？
So why don't we start with the story that you have chosen to open with?
你知道，宙斯、克洛诺斯，吞石块，那种父子之间陷入这场宇宙存在之战的感觉。
You know, Zeus, Cronos, the stone swallowing, the sort of sense of father and son locked in this sort of, you know, this sort of cosmic existential battle.
所以，这不仅仅是教科书上的希腊神话。
So this is you know, it's not just textbook Greek mythology.
这其实是希腊神话的奠基性故事，对吧？
This is the foundational Greek myth, isn't it?
没错。
It is.
它具有双重奠基意义，一方面因为它处于这一宏大神话体系的开端。
It's doubly foundational partly because it stands at the head of this great sweep of myths.
这讲的是宙斯和奥林匹斯众神的崛起。
This is about the coming of of Zeus and the Olympians.
但另一方面，因为它所出自的诗篇——《神谱》，即诸神的诞生——不仅是希腊诗歌的源头，更是欧洲诗歌的源头。
But also because the poem in which it it features, which is called the theogony or the birth of the gods, is itself at the kind of the wellspring, not just of of Greek poetry, but actually of European poetry.
所以它极其古老。
So it's fabulously ancient.
它写于雅典黄金时代之前大约三个世纪，也就是帕特农神庙、伯里克利以及所有那些事物出现之前，早在公元前八世纪。
It's written some three centuries before the golden age of Athens, so the Parthenon and Pericles and all that, way back in the eighth century BC.
大概是公元前730年、720年左右吧。
So maybe seven thirty, seven '20, something like that.
它的作者是一位名叫赫西俄德的人，他做了一件极其新颖的事，因为他掌握了一种全新的发明——字母表，真是太惊人了。
And its author was a man called Hesiod, and he is doing something incredibly novel because he has a brand new invention that he can use, and that invention is the alphabet, which Wow.
他从腓尼基人那里获得了它。
He has got from the Phoenicians.
我们很久以前做关于腓尼基人的那一集时就谈到过这一点。
We talked about that in the episode we did ages ago about the Phoenicians.
你可以立刻明白为什么这会是一个革命性的创新，因为在此之前，诗歌都是口传的。
And you can see immediately why this would be a radical innovation because previously poems had been oral.
但如今，由于可以将它们写下来，诗歌得以保存、阅读、重读，并代代相传。
But now for the first time, because you can write them down, they can be preserved and they can be read and they can be reread and they can pass down the generations.
比如，我们正是因此才得以拥有荷马的诗篇。
And that's how we get Homer's poems for example.
意思是，它们是所有这些伟大诗篇中最著名的，对吧？
Mean, they're the most famous of all of these great poems, aren't they?
《伊利亚特》和《奥德赛》。
The Iliad and the Odyssey.
是的。
Yes.
所以荷马和赫西俄德是同一时代的人。
So Homer is around the same time as Hesiod.
当然，人们熟知的是，他讲述的是特洛伊战争的故事——这场希腊人与特洛伊人之间的伟大冲突，以及在第二部诗作《奥德赛》中，奥德修斯历经十年返回家乡的历程。
He, of course, famously, people probably know he's telling the story of the Trojan War, this great conflict fought between the Greeks and the Trojans, and then the return of Odysseus for ten years back to his home in his second poem, The Odyssey.
希腊人将荷马和赫西俄德这两位诗人视为他们文学的两大源泉。
The Greeks saw these two poets, Homer and Hesiod, as the kind of the twin wellsprings of their literature.
至于谁更早出现尚不明确，但在古典时期，许多希腊人，就像今天的学者一样，认为赫西俄德实际上比荷马更年长。
And it's unclear which of them was the first, but there were lots of Greeks back in the classical period, as there are scholars now, who think that actually Hesiod was was older than Homer.
他可以说是欧洲诗歌、欧洲文学的开端。
He essentially is where European poetry, European literature begins.
他们俩都写关于神和神话，对吧？
And they're both writing about the gods and myths, aren't they?
是的。
Yeah.
但写法并不完全一样。
But not quite in the same way.
是这样吗？
Is that right?
没错。
Right.
与荷马不同，关于荷马有很多争议。
So unlike Homer, lots of debates about Homer.
他真的存在过吗？
Did he ever exist?
你知道，他真的是一个单独的人吗？
You know, was was he a single person?
我们知道赫西俄德确实存在，他在诗中提供了大量关于自己的个人细节，而荷马从未这样做过。
We know that Hesiod absolutely exists, and he gives us all kinds of personal details about himself in a way that Homer never does.
因此，即使荷马比他更年长，赫西俄德仍然是欧洲历史上我们能确信其真实存在并了解其个人细节的首位作家。
So even if Homer is older than him, Hesiod is definitely the first writer in European history whom we can know for sure existed and know kind of personal details about him.
假设他在诗中提供的细节可信，我们所知道的赫西俄德是这样一个人：他的父亲是一位希腊人，曾从爱琴海对岸迁徙到希腊本土，因为希腊人早已在爱琴海两岸定居，包括如今土耳其的安纳托利亚沿海地区。
Presuming that the details he gives in his poems can be trusted, what we know about Hesiod is that he is the son of a Greek who had travelled from the opposite side of the Aegean to Greece proper, because Greeks had settled across the Aegean, and they'd settled what's now the seaboard of Turkey, the Anatolia.
因此，假设赫西俄德在诗中告诉我们的内容是可信的——我认为没有理由怀疑这一点——赫西俄德是一位希腊人的儿子，这位父亲从爱琴海的远端，即如今的土耳其安纳托利亚地区，迁徙而来，而希腊人自特洛伊战争后不久便开始在那里定居。
So presuming that what Hesiod tells us in his poems is trustworthy, and I think there's no real reason to doubt it, Hesiod is the son of a Greek who had traveled from the far side of the Aegean from Greece, so Anatolia, what's now Turkey, where Greeks had been settling since probably just after the time of the Trojan War.
赫西俄德的父亲后来穿越爱琴海，回到希腊本土，在雅典以北的一个叫比奥西亚的地方定居下来。
Hesiod's father had traveled back across the Aegean to Greece proper, and he had settled in a place called Boeotia, which is just North of Athens.
赫西俄德和他的兄弟珀耳塞斯继承了赫利孔山脚下的农田，但情况非常糟糕。
Hesiod and his brother Perseus had inherited farmland below a mountain called Helicon, and things had not gone well at all.
首先，赫西俄德与他的兄弟珀耳塞斯发生了激烈的争吵。
So first of all, Hesiod had a massive bust up with his brother, Perseus.
他指控珀耳塞斯欺骗了他，剥夺了本应属于他的那份父亲遗产。
He accused Perseus of cheating him of his rightful share of the inheritance that was theirs from their father.
而且，这个当地聚居地，称它为小镇可能都太高看它了。
And, also, the kind of the local settlement, maybe calling it a town would be to dignify it.
这个地方叫阿斯克拉。
It's a place called Ascra.
赫西俄德说它简直是个垃圾场。
Hesiod said it's an absolute dump.
所以引他的话来说，这是一个悲惨的地方，冬天糟糕，夏天污浊，任何时候都不好。
So to quote him, it's a miserable place, bad in winter, foul in summer, good at no time.
就像西布罗姆维奇一样。
Like West Bromwich.
是的。
Yeah.
这是有记录以来欧洲历史上的第一份
It's the first kind
度假评价。
of holiday review ever recorded in European history.
然而，对赫西俄德来说，并非全是坏消息，因为高出阿斯克拉的赫利孔山，是被称为缪斯的女神们的居所。
However, it's not all bad news for Hesiod because Mount Helicon, which rises up above Ascra, this is the home of goddesses called the Muses.
她们是众神之王宙斯的女儿，是歌唱的女神。
And they are daughters of Zeus, the king of the gods, and they are the goddesses of song.
她们向他显现，并庇护他。
And they appear to him and take him under their wing.
当赫西俄德在赫利孔山山坡上放牧他的羊和山羊时，她们赐予他一根常青月桂枝——用赫西俄德自己的话说，作为他的权杖，并告诉他要歌唱祝福的不朽神灵的家族。
And they do so while Hesiod is up on the slopes of Mount Helicon tending his his sheep and his goats, and they give him a branch of springing bay, Hesiod's own words, to serve him as a staff, and they tell him to sing of the family of the blessed immortals.
这个故事对赫西俄德如此重要，以至于他选择以它作为其诗作《神谱》的开篇，这部作品讲述诸神的诞生。
And this story is so important to Hesiod that he chooses to open his poem, The Theogony, about the coming of the gods with this.
所以，多米尼克，你可能会好奇，为什么这如此重要。
And so, Dominic, you may wonder why it's so important.
我认为答案是，荷马的诗篇讲述的是英雄时代的终结，那些类似神祇般的人物，比如阿喀琉斯、赫克托耳和奥德修斯等等。
And I think the answer is Homer's poems are about the end of the age of the heroes, you know, these kind of godlike figures, Achilles and Hector and Odysseus and so on.
而这是标志着这一神话时代终结的伟大抗争，如果你愿意这么说的话。
And this is the kind of the great death struggle which marks the end of this a period of myth, you want to put it like that.
但正如我们所说，赫西俄德的诗正好处于神话时代的开端，它描述的是众神的诞生。
But Hesiod's poem is right, as we said, is right at the beginning of the the age of myth, and it's describing the coming of the gods.
而那时根本还没有人类存在。
And this is a time when there aren't really any humans at all.
因此，赫西俄德面临的问题是：他如何向人们证明自己有资格讲述这些故事？
So the problem for Hesiod is how does he convey to people that he is licensed to do this?
因为实际上，《神谱》的伟大主角并不是阿喀琉斯或奥德修斯那样的凡人。
Because, actually, the great hero of the Theogony isn't someone like Achilles or Odysseus, a mortal.
真正的主角其实是宙斯本人。
It's actually Zeus himself.
所以我认为，这正是赫西俄德的读者必须相信他的创作源自神圣启示——也就是宙斯的女儿缪斯们——的原因。
And so this, I think, is why Hesiod's readers need to believe that what Hesiod is writing about has come from a divine inspiration, namely the Muses, Zeus' own daughters.
如果人们不相信缪斯曾启示赫西俄德，那么赫西俄德担心他们根本不会相信他所讲述的内容。
And if it if people do not believe that the Muses have inspired Hesiod, then Hesiod is worried that they simply won't believe what he has to tell them.
但必须明确的是，赫西俄德和荷马都是人类诗人，创作的是人类的诗歌。
But to be absolutely clear, though, both Hesiod and Homer are human poets writing human poetry.
这些绝不是什么经文或神圣的典籍
These are not by any means scriptures, kind of scriptural divine
对。
Right.
是经文吗？
Texts, are they?
不是。
No.
所以他们不是先知。
So they're not prophets.
他们也不是祭司。
They're not priests.
他们并不监管关于诸神和不同城邦的言论界限。
They're not patrolling what, you know, what can or can't be said about the gods and different cities.
因此，希腊是由众多城邦拼凑而成的。
So Greece is a kind of patchwork of of of cities.
它不是一个单一的国家。
It's not a single country.
全国各地分布着许多各自拥有管辖权的城市。
There are different cities with their own jurisdiction dotted all over the country.
它们可以讲述关于神的不同故事。
They can tell different stories about the gods.
没有任何东西阻止它们这样做。
There's nothing to stop them doing that.
没有一群祭司来规范这些事。
No kind of cast of priests to do that.
但赫西俄德和荷马为希腊人——这些分散的地区、城市和传统——提供了某种结构感。
But what Hesiod and Homer crucially provide the Greeks, all these kind of scattered regions, these scattered cities, these scattered traditions, it gives them a certain sense of structure.
这是否意味着，某种程度上，正是这两位诗人赫西俄德和荷马发明了‘希腊性’？
Doesn't that mean that it's it's these two poets to some degree, Hesiod and Homer, who basically invent Greekness?
希腊人作为一个民族或一种文明的概念，源于他们都认同这些传播在整个希腊世界的神话和故事。
The idea of the Greeks as as one people or one civilization is because they all look to these myths and to these stories that have spread across the Greek world.
就像十九世纪的民族主义诗人发明国家一样。
Like, nineteenth century nationalist poets inventing, you know, inventing nations.
我的意思是，确实存在
I mean, there is
我认为，有一种希腊认同感是在此之前就已存在的。
a sense, I think, of Greekness that preexists that.
他们说着同一种语言。
They speak the same language.
他们本质上崇拜着同样的神。
They're essentially worshiping the same gods.
但赫西俄德和荷马所做的，是提供了一种结构，这种结构确实在他们去世后传承给了后续的希腊世代，并如你所说，赋予他们一种希腊认同感。
But what Hesiod and Homer are doing is providing a sense of structure that will indeed then be passed down after their lifetimes to subsequent generations of Greeks, and as you say, provide them with a sense of Greekness.
因此，引用一位著名的德国学者瓦尔特·伯克哈特的话，他在《希腊宗教》一书中写道：‘只有权威才能在如此纷繁的传统混乱中建立秩序。’
So to quote a very famous German scholar on this, Walter Burkhardt, in his book Greek religion, Only an authority could create order amidst such a confusion of tradition.
这些就是不同地区和城市关于诸神的各种不同说法。
So these are all the different traditions that the different regions and cities are saying about the gods.
希腊人所依赖的权威，是赫西俄德的诗歌，尤其是荷马的诗歌。
The authority to whom the Greeks appealed was the poetry of Hesiod and above all of Homer.
希腊人的精神统一建立并维系于诗歌之上，这种诗歌仍能汲取鲜活的口头传统，或许源自特洛伊战争时代，从而形成自由与形式、自发性与纪律的完美结合。
The spiritual unity of the Greeks was founded and upheld by poetry, a poetry which could still draw on living oral tradition, so that's descending perhaps from the age of the Trojan Wars, to produce a felicitous union of freedom and form, spontaneity, and discipline.
我认为，这是希腊神话的关键所在，也正是希腊人对神灵与超自然维度的理解具有独特特征的原因——即它极其易读。
I think this is the crucial thing about Greek myth, and it's why the Greek understanding of the dimension of the gods and the supernatural has the peculiar character that it does, namely that it's incredibly readable.
希腊神话中的故事实在太精彩了。
The stories that you get with Greek myths are so good.
这是因为希腊文化是一种非常、非常强烈的文学文化，远胜于巴比伦或埃及的文化。
It's because it is a very, very intensely literary culture, much more so than, say, you get in Babylon or Egypt.
那么，你认为希腊神话或希腊宗教因此比同时期其他宗教，比如近东宗教之类的，更偏向文学性而非仪式性吗？
So do you think Greek myth or Greek religion is therefore more of a literary than a ritualistic thing compared with other religions of the same time period or the same kind of, you know, Near Eastern religions or whatever?
是否有一种观念认为，这是一种基于书籍或故事的宗教，而非基于实践的宗教？
Is it there was a sense that this is a religion of the of the book or the story rather than of the of the kind of of practice?
嗯，正如我们稍后将看到的，向神灵缴纳的贡品、节日和祭祀等都是非常重要的。
Well, so the the dues that you have to pay to the gods are very important as we'll see the kind of the festivals and the the the sacrifices and so on.
但神祇作为故事中的人物存在，这一点至关重要，使得希腊神话极为独特。
But the fact that the gods exist as characters in stories, I think, is overwhelmingly important and makes it very, very distinctive.
或许，比较荷马与赫西俄德关系的最佳方式是，《伊利亚特》就像《魔戒》。
And perhaps the best way to compare the relationship of Homer to Hesiod is the Iliad is like, I think, the Lord of the Rings.
而赫西俄德的《神谱》则像《精灵宝钻》。
And Hesiod's Theogony is like The Silmarillion.
也就是托尔金的两部伟大著作。
So Tolkien's two great books.
因此，《伊利亚特》和《魔戒》一样，聚焦于一场宏大的史诗式战争与冒险。
So the Iliad, like the Lord of the Rings, we're zooming in close to a kind of epic adventure war and so on.
但另一部作品《神谱》则拉远镜头，为我们呈现了极其深远的背景故事。
But the other one, the theogony, is pulling back the camera to give us the very deep backstory.
托尔金世界那种活力——对现代产生了巨大影响——正源于这两者的结合。
And the kind of the vitality of Tolkien's world, which is you know, has been so influential in the modern day, is due to the pairing of those.
当你阅读《魔戒》时，会感受到一个极其深厚的历史背景，这正是关键所在。
The fact that when you read Lord of the Rings, you have a sense of a massively deep backstory.
我认为对希腊人来说，当你阅读《伊利亚特》或《奥德赛》时，确实会有一种感觉：这些故事发生在万物起源、神灵诞生的背景之中，人们可以假定他们早已熟悉这些故事。
And I think it's very similar for the Greeks that when you're reading the Iliad or the Odyssey, you do have a sense that this exists in the context of the beginning of things, of the origins of the gods, of kind of stories that people can it can be assumed that they know.
但当然，与托尔金相比，这里有一个关键区别：托尔金是在创作小说。
But, of course, there is this crucial difference with Tolkien that Tolkien is writing fiction.
希腊人并不认为赫西俄德或荷马的作品是虚构的。
The Greeks do not think that what you're reading in Hesiod or Homer is fiction.
好的。
Okay.
所以这是一个关键问题。
So this is a crucial question.
当赫西俄德写下他的作品时，这是一种文学创作行为。
So when Hesiod writes his stuff, this is an act of literary craftsmanship.
但他自己相信这些内容吗？
But does he believe it?
读者们相信吗？我的意思是，即使在你还是孩子时读希腊神话，这个问题也总是让你感到困惑。
And do the readers believe I mean, it's the question that always puzzles you even when you're a child when you read the Greek myths.
听到这些故事的人真的相信，有人住在奥林匹斯山上，扔着雷电，彼此偷情，化身为降雨或其他什么形式吗？
Do people who hear these stories genuinely believe that there are people up on their on Mount Olympus who are, like, throwing thunderbolts around, having affairs with each other, disguising themselves as showers of rain or whatever it might be.
我的意思是，希腊人又不是傻子。
Do people I mean, the Greeks are not they're not idiots.
他们真的相信这些吗？
Do they really believe this?
这个问题将在接下来的四集中我们逐一探讨。
This is a question that we will be exploring over the course of these four episodes.
对大多数希腊人来说，在大多数时候，问他们是否相信诸神？
For most Greeks, most of the time, saying, do they believe in the gods?
你知道我接下来要说什么，是的。
And you know what I'm about to say Yeah.
这是一种以基督教视角提出的问题，因为基督教是建立在信仰之上的。
Is a Christian framing of a question because Christianity is founded on belief.
你相信基督之类的吗？
Do you believe in, you know, Christ or whatever?
是的
Yeah.
我认为希腊人并不是这样思考的。
I don't think the Greeks thought in those terms.
一位研究古雅典的学者格雷格·安德森对希腊人与神的关系提出了一个精彩的比喻。
And there's a brilliant framing of their relationship to the gods by a a scholar of of ancient Athens called Greg Anderson.
他们对神的理解，就像我们对经济或市场的理解一样。
Their sense of the gods is like, say, our sense of the economy or the market.
我们相信经济吗？
Do we believe in the economy?
我们相信市场吗？
Do we believe in the market?
我的意思是，在某种层面上我们确实相信，但我们从不特意去思考它。
I mean, on one level, we do, but we don't stop to think about it.
我们只是理所当然地接受它。
We just take for granted Yeah.
它们的存在。
Their existence.
尽管我们看不到市场，但确实如此。
Even though we can't see the market Yeah.
我们处处能感受到它的存在。
We sense its presence everywhere.
我想，市场与奥林匹斯神明之间的类比非常恰当，因为我们知道市场能带给我们好处，但也知道必须安抚它，否则它会毁灭我们。
And I guess the the market is a really good comparison, say, to an Olympian god because we know that the market can bring us good things, but we also know that it has to be appeased or it will destroy us.
那么，那究竟是什么呢？
So what was it?
詹姆斯·卡维尔，那位火爆的路易斯安那人，曾说，如果他……哦，是的。
The James Carville, the raging Cajun, said that if he Oh, yeah.
如果他能转世，他想变成债券市场，因为每个人都对债券市场感到恐惧。
If he could be reincarnated, like to come back as the bond market because everyone's terrified of the bond market.
我认为，这最接近古希腊人看待神明的方式。
I think that that is the closest modern parallel to how the Greeks viewed the gods.
当然，人们对如何安抚市场有着不同的看法。
And, of course, you know, people will have different views on how the markets could be appeased.
在古希腊，关于如何最好地安抚众神，也存在着类似的一系列观点。
And there were similar kind of a range of opinions back in back in Greece about the best way of appeasing the gods.
我的意思是，对于大多数希腊人来说，是否相信神的存在，这个问题根本不会出现。
I mean, the question of whether you believe in in the gods, I think, for most Greeks, never arises.
我只是不想耽误你太久，让你无法继续讲下去。
Just I don't wanna delay you for too long in getting on with the story.
然而，这引出了另一个问题：人们可能相信市场，但他们并不会讲述关于市场以拟人化方式行为的复杂故事。
However, that raises a a different question though, which is so people might believe in the market, but they don't tell intricate stories about the market that involve the market behaving in an anthropomorphic way.
换句话说，我完全能理解一个非常聪明的希腊人——无论是哲学家还是其他身份——认为宙斯是有意义的。
So in other words, I can completely see how a very intelligent Greek, you know, philosopher or whatever, believes that Zeus is is meaningful.
但他真的相信宙斯曾化身为公牛，与一位女子结合，或化作一场雨幕之类的传说吗？
But does he actually think that Zeus transformed into a bull and slept with a woman or whatever or a shower of rain or whatever it might be?
他真的相信这些故事的细节吗？
Does he believe in the in the details of the stories?
当然，有不同的诗人讲述着关于宙斯的不同故事。
Well, you have different poets who are telling different stories about Zeus.
不同的城邦也会出于我们稍后会谈到的原因，讲述关于他的不同故事。
You have different cities that tell different stories about him for reasons that we'll come to.
这些故事有时相互矛盾，但还不至于动摇大多数希腊人对宙斯确实存在的信念。
And sometimes these are discordant, but they're not so discordant that they unsettle the conviction of most Greeks that there is indeed a god called Zeus.
也许有些人把那些故事当作诗歌来理解。
And maybe some view these stories, you know, in the dimension of poetry.
有些人则以各种各样的方式看待它们。
Some view them in kind of all kinds of ways.
但我认为，大多数人相信诗人所讲述的故事揭示了众神与人类之父的真相。
But I think most of them do think that the stories that are told by the poets reveal the truth about the god who is father of gods and men.
因此，宙斯确实具有一种统一而连贯的实在性，正因如此，我们才能为他撰写一部传记。
And that Zeus therefore does possess a kind of single coherent reality, and that's why it is possible to give a a kind of biography of him.
而这部传记主要依赖赫西俄德，正是赫西俄德为我们提供了关于宙斯父母是谁、如何推翻父亲并成为众神与人类之主的详细记载。
And this is a biography that depends largely upon Hesiod because it's Hesiod who gives us the details about, you know, who his parents were, how he came to overthrow his father and to become the lord of the heavens, the father of gods and men.
这个故事中的某些细节是可以争议的。
And some of the details in this story can be contested.
你知道，不同的城市有不同的说法。
You know, different cities give different accounts.
我在这集中想做的，是呈现希腊人会讲述的宙斯传记——如果你坐下来问他们：‘告诉我们宙斯是谁，他从哪里来，他做什么，他究竟是怎样的存在。’
And what I want to do in this episode is to give that kind of biography of Zeus that the Greeks would have told if you'd said, you know, sit us down and tell us who Zeus is, where he comes from, what does he do, what's he all about.
好的。
Okay.
那么，汤姆，给我们讲讲宙斯的一生吧。
So take us through Zeus' life story then, Tom.
好的。
Okay.
我们将聚焦于《神谱》，因为这是最权威的版本。
So we'll focus on the theogony because this is the kind of the most canonical account.
它并非从宙斯开始，而是从他的祖母盖亚开始，她是大地，赫西俄德称她为‘宽广胸膛的大地’，是所有居住在白雪皑皑的奥林匹斯山巅的不朽神灵永恒温暖的源泉。
And it begins not with Zeus, but with his grandmother Gaia, who is the earth, broad breasted earth Hesiod calls her, secures heat forever of all the immortals who occupy the peak of snowy Olympus.
这完全是希腊式的，因为大地盖亚生出了乌拉诺斯，即天空或天堂，罗马人称他为天王星。
And it's it's it's all very Greek because Gaia, the earth, gives birth to Ouranos, the sky or the heaven, which the Romans called Uranus.
盖亚与乌拉诺斯结合，生下了十二位神祇，六男六女。
Gaia sleeps with Uranus and gives birth to 12 gods, six male, six female.
这些并不是奥林匹斯诸神。
These are not the Olympian gods.
这些神被称为提坦神。
These are gods called Titans.
其中最年幼的，赫西俄德告诉我们，是克洛诺斯，那个狡诈的谋划者，所有子女中最可怕的一个。
And the youngest of these, Hesiod tells us, was Cronos, the crooked schemer, most fearsome of children.
克洛诺斯憎恨他那充满欲望的父亲。
And Cronos loathed his lusty father.
所以这个充满欲望的父亲就是乌拉诺斯。
So the lusty father is Ouranos.
用‘充满欲望’这个词是因为乌拉诺斯根本无法控制自己。
And lusty is the word because Ouranos just can't help himself.
他不断让可怜的盖亚怀孕。
He just keeps getting poor Gaia pregnant.
而她则不断生下越来越多的孩子。
And she just gives birth to more and more children.
其中一些是独眼巨人，像波吕斐摩斯那样只有一个眼睛，奥德修斯日后会遇到他。
So some of these are cyclops, the giants with one eye, like Polyphemus, who Odysseus will meet in due course.
这些人能够锻造雷电，这是希腊神话中的核导弹，具有毁灭性和致命性。
These are people who can forge thunderbolts, which are the kind of the nuclear missiles of Greek mythology, absolutely devastating and lethal.
盖亚还生下了一连串拥有百臂和五十个头的怪物。
Gaia also gives birth to a succession of monsters which have a 100 arms and 50 heads.
他们的父亲，赫西俄德告诉我们，也就是乌拉诺斯，从一开始就憎恨他们。
And their own father, Hesiod tells us, so that's Ouranos, loathe them from the beginning.
每当他们一出生，他就把他们全部藏进盖亚的洞穴中，不让他们见到光明。
As soon as each of them was born, he hid them all away in a cavern of Gaia and would not let them into the light.
乌拉诺斯享受着这邪恶的行为，而巨大的盖亚则被紧紧压住，痛苦呻吟。
And he took pleasure in the wicked work, did Aranos, while the huge Gaia was tight pressed inside and groaned.
所以，我的意思是，这并不愉快。
So, I mean, not pleasant.
我的意思是，想象一下，你刚生完孩子，孩子却被塞回体内，接着又生出一大堆独眼巨人和百臂怪物。
I mean, I guess imagine if you've given birth having the baby shoved back inside you and then a whole load more of cyclops and monsters with a 100 arms.
我的意思是，这简直太糟糕了。
I mean, that's not nice at all.
因此，盖亚对正在发生的事情并不满意。
And so Gaia isn't keen on what's happening.
于是她制造了一种叫玄铁的石头，并用它做了一把镰刀。
And she manufactures this stone called adamant, and then she makes a sickle out of it.
她把这把镰刀交给了她的儿子克洛诺斯。
And she gives it to her son, Cronos.
克洛诺斯拿着镰刀，悄悄行动。
And Cronos takes the sickle and slick.
他割下了乌拉诺斯的睾丸。
He slices off Ouranos' testicles.
对。
Right.
他阉割了自己的父亲，剥夺了父亲的男性身份。
He castrates his own father, unmans his own father.
哇。
Wow.
是的。
Yes.
所以乌拉诺斯实际上是历史上第一个太监。
So Ouranos is actually the first eunuch In all history.
历史上第一个太监。
In all history.
克洛诺斯捡起被割下的睾丸，将它们扔了出去。
And Cronos picks up the the severed testicles, and he flings them away.
在它们飞驰的过程中，血液和精液从它们身上滴落，落地后孕育出了巨人的种族。
And as they fly, blood and semen drips out of them, and they land and give birth to the race of the giants.
然后，那些被割下的睾丸落入海中，据传是在塞浦路斯附近。
And then the severed testicles, they land in the sea, traditionally very near Cyprus, it was said.
而这种泡沫，希腊语中称为‘aphros’，被搅动起来。
And this foam, aphros in Greek, is churned up.
从泡沫中诞生了女神阿佛洛狄忒，因此她的名字由此而来。
And from the foam emerges the goddess Aphrodite, so hence her name.
赫西俄德告诉我们，她的特质是少女的低语、微笑、欺骗、甜蜜的愉悦、亲密与温柔。
And Hesiod tells us that her dimension is the whisperings of girls, smiles, deception, sweet pleasure, intimacy, and tenderness.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，这是关于阿佛洛狄忒诞生的一个故事。
So that's one story about the birth of Aphrodite.
还有另一种传统说法，认为她是宙斯的女儿。
There is another tradition that she's the daughter of Zeus.
这展示了这些传说有多么多样，但这是最广为人知的版本。
So that's an example of how kind of various these traditions are, but this is the kind of the most famous account.
这就是波提切利那幅著名的维纳斯（即阿佛洛狄忒）从海浪中升起的画作中所描绘的场景。
It's the one that you get in Botticelli's famous painting of Venus, aka Aphrodite, rising from the waves.
所以克洛诺斯现在是掌权的大人物。
So Cronos is the big man now.
是的。
Yeah.
克洛诺斯是头号人物。
Cronos is top dog.
他是众神之王。
He's king of the gods.
按照古希腊的传统，他娶了自己的妹妹，对吧，瑞亚？
In good Greek fashion, he marries his own sister, doesn't he, Rhea?
没错。
Yep.
他还把独眼巨人关了起来。
And he also shut up the cyclops.
他把独眼巨人放逐了。
He's got rid of the cyclops.
他们被关在塔尔塔罗斯。
They're in Tartarus.
塔尔塔罗斯是什么？
What's Tartarus?
有点像地狱。
Kinda hell.
那是地表之下一个幽暗的维度。
It's a kind of shadowy dimension beneath beneath the earth.
对。
Right.
所以他娶了瑞亚。
So he's married Rhae.
他们一共生了六个孩子，就是这些奥林匹斯神。
They in turn have six children, and these are the Olympians.
所以你有三个女儿：赫斯提亚、得墨忒耳和赫拉。
So you have three girls, Hestia, Demeter, and Hera.
你还有三个儿子：哈迪斯、波塞冬和宙斯。
And you have three boys, Hades, Poseidon, and Zeus.
克洛诺斯得知了一个预言。
And Cronos, he has been alerted to a prophecy.
所以，再次引用赫西俄德的话，他从盖亚和繁星般的乌拉诺斯那里得知，他注定会被自己的孩子推翻，就像他曾经推翻乌拉诺斯一样。
So, again, to quote Hesiod, he'd learned from Gaia and Starry Uranos that he was fated to be overthrown by his own child just as, you know, Cronos had overthrown Uranos.
是的。
Yeah.
于是他试图通过吞食每个刚出生的孩子来逃避命运，一口吞下去。
And so he tries to escape his doom by devouring each one of his children as they're born, kind of gulp them down.
这六个孩子中最小的一个是宙斯。
And the last born of these six children is Zeus.
这促使瑞亚使出了用石头裹在襁褓中的计策。
And this is what prompts Rhea to pull her stone in swaddling clothes trick.
于是他用襁褓裹住一块石头，递给克洛诺斯，克洛诺斯一口吞了下去。
So he wraps up a stone in swaddling clothes, gives it to Cronos, and he just gulps it down.
随后，瑞亚把宙斯带走并藏了起来。
Rhea then takes Zeus away and hides him.
关于宙斯被藏匿的地点，有各种各样的传说。
And there are all kinds of traditions about where Zeus is hidden.
最著名的说法似乎都源自克里特岛。
The most famous seem to have arisen in Crete.
普遍共识似乎是宙斯被藏在了克里特岛上。
That seems to be the kind of general consensus is that Zeus was hidden on on Crete.
赫西俄德没有提及这些细节，但流传着许多关于宙斯被藏在山中洞穴里的故事，一群年轻战士围绕着他跳舞，用长矛敲击盾牌，以免婴儿宙斯的哭声被听见。
Hesiod doesn't go into this, but there are all these kind of stories about how Zeus gets hidden in a cave under a mountain, and there's a band of young warriors who dance around him beating their spears on the shields to prevent the baby Zeus' crying from being heard.
还有一只超自然的母山羊，名叫阿玛尔忒亚，她的乳头供给宙斯牛奶和蜂蜜的混合物。
And there's a a supernatural goat, which is a mouthier whose teats give him a mixture of milk and honey.
这对婴儿来说非常合适。
So that's very nice for the baby's use.
于是他成长为一个健壮的青年，步入成年，准备向克洛诺斯发起进攻。
And so he grows up a strapping young lad, then he goes to manhood, and he is ready to go on the attack against Cronos.
他具体是如何做到的，并不十分清楚。
It's not exactly clear how he does this.
推测起来，他可能给克洛诺斯服下了催吐剂。
Presumably, he gives Cronos a memetic.
但克洛诺斯吐出了那块石头，也吐出了宙斯的五个兄弟姐妹。
But Cronos vomits up the stone, vomits up Zeus' five siblings.
宙斯拿过那块石头，把它放在德尔斐——那里将来会成为伟大的神谕之地，是的。
Zeus takes the stone, places it in Delphi where the great oracle will be Yeah.
成为凡人惊叹的奇观。
To be a thing of wonder for mortal men.
他和兄弟姐妹们一起，向克洛诺斯及其盟友泰坦们发动了战争。
And with his siblings, he then launches a war against Cronos and his allies, the Titans.
宙斯在把兄弟姐妹们从克洛诺斯的肚子里救出来后，第一件事就是前往塔尔塔罗斯，打开大门，放出独眼巨人。
And the first thing that Zeus does after getting his his siblings up out of Cronos' stomach is to go to Tartarus and open up the gates and to get out the cyclops.
我之前提到过，他们极其擅长制造大规模杀伤性武器，也就是雷电，而这正是他们所做的。
And I mentioned how they're absolute whiz at constructing weapons of mass destruction, aka the thunderbolts, and this is what they do.
他们为宙斯打造雷电。
They make thunderbolts for Zeus.
奥林匹斯众神与泰坦之间爆发了一场持续十年的战争，而雷电最终起到了决定性作用。
And there's this ten year war that the Olympians fight against the Titans, and it's the thunderbolts that prove decisive.
因为宙斯得到雷电后，能够将敌人化为灰烬，克洛诺斯和泰坦们因此被击败，如今轮到他们被囚禁在塔尔塔罗斯。
Because when Zeus gets them, he can incinerate his enemies, and Cronos and the Titans are raised low, and it is now they who get imprisoned in Tartarus.
再次引用赫西俄德的话：他们被宙斯——那位冷酷的收集者——判处在大地尽头的腐朽之地，终日沉溺于阴霾之中。
And, again, to quote Hesiod, there they languish in misty gloom, condemned by Zeus, the cold gatherer in a place of decay at the end of the vast earth.
泰坦们锻造了巨大的青铜门，将他们锁在里面。
And the Titans forge great bronze doors that lock them in.
那百臂怪物，还记得他们吗？
The 100 armed monsters, remember them?
是的。
Yeah.
他们仍然在场。
They're still on the scene.
他们由宙斯任命，担任看守，站在巨大的青铜大门外。
They are appointed by Zeus to serve as jailers, to stand outside the the great bronze gates.
正如赫西俄德所说，泰坦们无路可逃。
And as Hesiod puts it, the titans have no way out.
他们被牢牢地关押着。
They are securely locked up.
哇。
Wow.
北欧神话里也有类似的东西，对吧？
There's stuff like this in North North mythology, isn't there?
某种不同世代的神祇彼此争斗。
Sort of different generations of gods fighting each other.
以及这种代际冲突的理念
And this idea of generational conflict
是的
Yeah.
这是许多世界伟大神话的核心。
Is at the heart of so many of the kind of world's great mythologists.
无论如何，我们可以在第二部分来剖析这个故事，探讨它的来源。
Anyway, we can come on to dissecting the story and exploring where it comes from in the second half.
现在作为宙斯的得力助手
Now as Zeus' top dog
他是。
He is.
他和兄弟们统治着宇宙，并且他们之间划分了权力，对吧？
He and his brothers rule the cosmos, and they divide it up between them, don't they?
所以他们基本上是通过大量手段来实现这一点的。
So they basically and they do that by a lot.
他们确实如此。
They do.
这一结果并非由赫西俄德讲述，而是由荷马讲述的。
And the result of this is is told us not by Hesiod but by Homer.
波塞冬赢得了灰暗的海洋，因此他成为了海洋之神。
Poseidon won the gray sea, so he becomes the god of the of the oceans.
哈迪斯获得了幽暗的黑暗，成为了冥界之神。
Hades, the murky darkness, he becomes the god of the dead.
宙斯则获得了广阔的苍穹。
Zeus, the broad heavens.
宙斯随后延续了家族传统，娶了他的妹妹赫拉，两人作为国王和王后统治着奥林匹斯山。
And Zeus then carries on the family tradition by marrying his sister, Hera, and they rule as king and queen on Mount Olympus.
正如你所说，如今已无人能违抗宙斯，因为他比其他所有神明加起来还要强大。
And as you say, there is now no defying Zeus because he's stronger than all the other gods combined.
希腊人描绘宙斯的方式，两者都传达了他那强大的力量与威严。
The way that the Greeks illustrate Zeus, both of them convey the sense of his power, his awesome might.
最早的宙斯形象显示他大步向前，前脚迈出，高举手臂握着雷霆。
So the oldest representations of Zeus show him striding forwards, front foot forward, holding a thunderbolt in his upraised arm.
他另外一种形象是端坐于宝座上，手持权杖，身旁有一只鹰。
And the other representation of him, he's sat enthroned with a scepter and an eagle by his side.
但这些故事的暗示不就是克洛诺斯推翻了自己的父亲，而宙斯又推翻了克洛诺斯吗？
But isn't the implication of these stories so you've got Cronos overthrew his own father, then Zeus overthrew Cronos.
是的。
Yeah.
这并不是预期中的事。
It's not the expectation.
这就像一种你作为孩子必须重复的模式。
It's like one of those sort of recurring patterns that you have to do as a child.
人们并不预期宙斯的某个孩子会反过来推翻他，正是这种循环构成了世界的运转方式。
It's not the expectation that one of Zeus' children will overthrow him in turn, and that's how the cycle that is how the world turns.
完全正确。
Absolutely.
显然，诗人们心中有一种感觉，这或许对宙斯来说是一种诗意的报应。
There is clearly a sense, I guess, among the poets that this would, if you like, be poetic justice for Zeus.
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但宙斯的力量如此强大，足以挫败诗人可能想对他使出这一招的诱惑。
But Zeus' power is such that he can checkmate the temptation poets might have to kind of pull that trick on him.
好的。
Alright.
在赫西俄德的作品中，他明确提及了这种传统。
So in Hesiod, Hesiod does allude very directly to such a tradition.
他说，智慧女神墨提斯所生的孩子，注定会推翻自己的父亲。
And he says that the son of a goddess called Metis, goddess of kind of intelligence, of wisdom, that any child born to Metis is destined to overthrow his father.
而这无疑对宙斯构成了致命的威胁，因为他一直与墨提斯在一起。
And of course, this is potentially an absolutely mortal danger to Zeus because he's been sleeping with her.
墨提斯怀孕后，宙斯陷入了极大的恐慌。
Metis gets pregnant and Zeus is thrown into a massive panic.
因此，根据一种较晚的传说，他说道：‘亲爱的，你能展示一下你变化形态的本领吗？’
And so according to a late tradition, what he does is to say, oh, darling, would you show me how proficient you are at changing your form?
也许你愿意变成一只苍蝇？
Perhaps you would like to change into a fly.
于是Metis变作一只苍蝇，宙斯伸手抓住苍蝇，将她吞了下去。
And so Metis does change into a fly and Zeus reaches out, grabs the fly and swallows her.
这真是一个非常聪明的举动，因为他不仅除掉了Metis和她腹中的孩子，而且Metis正如我们所说，是智慧女神，因此她的智慧现在成了宙斯的智慧，赫西俄德详细说明了这对宙斯意味着什么。
And this proves a very smart move because not only has he got rid of Metis and the baby in Metis' belly, but Metis, as we said, is the goddess of wisdom, and so her wisdom is now Zeus', and Hesiod spells out what this means for Zeus.
既然Metis在他体内，这位女神就能为他指点吉凶。
Now that Metis was in his belly, the goddess could advise him of what was good and bad.
好的。
Okay.
而且，他也没有失去这个孩子，因为这个孩子最终成为将为雅典命名的女神——雅典娜。
And, also, he doesn't lose his child because this child turns out to be the goddess who will give her name to Athens, Athena.
她以全副武装的形态从宙斯的额头中跃然而出，这是她著名的出场方式。
And she famously bursts out fully formed, clad in armor from Zeus' forehead.
宙斯感到剧烈的头痛。
He has a splitting headache.
他的头被斧头劈开，雅典娜便从中跃出。
It gets split open with an axe, and out Athena leaps.
而且她是个女孩，不是男孩，所以她无法继承天界的王位。
And she's a girl, not a boy, so she won't be able to inherit the throne of the heavens.
但她无疑是所有奥林匹斯神中最独特、最强大的一位之一，据说还是宙斯最钟爱的孩子。
But she's, you know, one of the most distinctive and potent of all the Olympians, and it is said Zeus' favorite child.
但我猜宙斯和克洛诺斯之间还是有区别的，对吧？
But I guess there's a difference, isn't it, between Zeus and Cronos?
不仅仅是宙斯更强大，而且他永远不会被推翻。
Not just that Zeus is more powerful and he's never gonna be overthrown.
宙斯令人恐惧、威严无比，确实让人肃然起敬。
Zeus is terrifying and formidable and absolutely, you know, sort of awe inspiring.
但同时，他也是一位仁慈的父亲。
But also, he is a benevolent father.
是这样吗？
Is that right?
他是正义与智慧的化身，还有诸如此类的一切。
And he's sort of a he's the incarnation of justice and of wisdom and all of these kinds of things.
是的。
Well, yes.
所以他现在把墨提斯吞进了肚子里。
So he's got he's now got Metis in his stomach.
对。
Right.
因此墨提斯可以给他出谋划策。
And so Metis can advise him.
没错。
So yes.
赫西俄德和荷马都坚持认为，当宙斯决定神与人的事务时，他并非像克洛诺斯那样暴虐地统治，而是作为一位父亲——他父亲般的宙斯。
And and both Hesiod and Homer do insist on this, that when when Zeus kind of determines the affairs of of gods and men, He's doing so not as a tyrant, not like Cronos, but but as a father, his father's Zeus.
他主持正义。
He oversees justice.
他明智地安排宇宙秩序。
He organizes the cosmos wisely.
这在很大程度上体现了赫西俄德和荷马这两位伟大诗人对宙斯的描绘方式。
This is kind of fundamental to the way that that both these great poets, Hesiod and Homer, portrays Zeus.
这里或许有一种与圣经中上帝的某种回响。
And there's a sense, perhaps a kind of echo there of of the biblical god.
因此，赫西俄德在开启另一首诗作时——不是《神谱》，而是另一首——确实以一段祈祷开篇，许多学者认为这段祈祷与圣经中的诗篇有相似之处。
So Hesiod, when he opens another of his poems, not the theogony, another one, he does say with a prayer that lots of scholars have said seems to echo the Psalms that you get in the Bible.
所以，让我们引用一下，这是赫西俄德在谈论宙斯。
So to quote it, this is Hesiod talking about Zeus.
他轻易地使弯曲的变直，使傲慢者枯萎。
Easily he makes the crooked straight and withers the proud.
那位在高处雷鸣、居住于最高殿堂的宙斯。
Zeus who thunders on high, who dwells in the highest mansions.
哦，请聆听，当你看见并听见时，以正义作出公正的裁决。
Oh, hearken as thou seest and hearest and make judgment straight with righteousness.
我的意思是，这些话放在那里也毫不违和。对。
I mean, that wouldn't be out of place No.
完全不是。
Not at all.
就像一首对圣经中上帝的赞歌。
In a a kind of song of praise to the biblical God.
同样，在荷马的作品中，有一个著名场景，发生在《伊利亚特》结尾处阿喀琉斯与赫克托尔的战斗中。
And likewise in Homer, there's a famous scene when Achilles and Hector are fighting at the end of of the Iliad.
宙斯拿起一对金秤，高高举起，将两位英雄的命运放在秤上称量。
And Zeus gets these golden scales and holds them up, and he weighs the fate of the two heroes in the balance.
赫克托尔的一边下沉，因此注定他必须死去。
And Hector's scale dips, so it is ordained that he must die.
宙斯为此哀伤，但他当然会依照正义行事，因为维护正义是他的职责。
And Zeus mourns this, but he, of course, acts in accordance with what is right because he it is his duty to uphold that.
他之所以能做到这一点，是因为他只需做出决定，随即就会立即实现。
He can do this because he only has to make a decision, and immediately, it is enacted.
《伊利亚特》中还有另一段非常著名的段落描述了这一情景。
And there's another very famous passage in the Iliad where Homer describes this.
他们会引用这段话。
They'd quote it.
宙斯，克洛诺斯之子，低下了他那布满岩石般的深色眉毛，无尽的发丝从这位伟大不朽之王的雷云之首倾泻而下，巨大的震动传遍了整个奥林匹斯山。
Zeus, the son of Cronos, bowed his craggy dark brows and the deathless locks came pouring down from the thunderhead of the great immortal king, and giant shock waves spread through all Olympus.
这些诗句据说启发了最著名的希腊雕塑家菲迪亚斯，他生活在公元前五世纪，创作了矗立在帕特农神庙中的宏伟雅典娜雕像。
And these were lines that were said to have inspired the most famous of all Greek sculptors, Phydeus, who was working in the fifth century BC, who made the the great sculpture of Athena that stood in the Parthenon.
但他还创作了古代世界七大奇迹之一——奥林匹亚的宙斯巨像。
But he also made one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, the statue of Zeus at Olympia.
荷马的这段文字正是他在试图表现宙斯的威严与辉煌时的灵感来源。
That passage from Homer is what inspired him when he came to try and portray the majesty and splendor of Zeus.
但更持怀疑态度的听众可能会对这一点提出异议，指出：你已经提到了他的风流韵事。
But more Zeus skeptical listeners may well object to this point and so point out, you've already referred to his philandering.
而且，虽然这个比喻有点愚蠢，但我还是想说一下。
And actually, by, you know, it's a stupid comparison, but I'll make it anyway.
以今天的标准来看，他对年轻女性的态度简直可以说是‘韦恩斯坦式’的。
By today's standards, you know, he's positively kind of Weinsteinian in his attitude towards younger women.
他是个巨大的掠食者。
He's a massive predator.
是的。
Yes.
他是个强奸犯，实际上，不是吗？
He's a and he's a rapist, actually, isn't he?
是的。
Yes.
所以有一长串名单。
So there's a huge list.
是的。
Yes.
我的意思是，给你个概念，汤姆，他自己的妹妹得墨忒耳，他也与之发生关系。
I mean, to give you us a sense, Tom, his own sister, Demeter, he sleeps with.
生下了珀耳塞福涅。
Gives birth to Persephone.
对。
Right.
他的姑姑。
His aunt.
我的意思是，我觉得这确实如此。
I mean, I think it's a that's Yeah.
所以，是的。
So so yeah.
所以他的姑姑是记忆女神。
So his aunt is is is the goddess of memory.
她生下了缪斯女神，她们曾向赫西俄德在赫利孔山上显现。
She gives birth to the the muses who appear to Hesiod on Mount Helicon.
他与自己的表妹勒托结合，而勒托后来生下了双胞胎阿波罗和阿尔忒弥斯，他们也将成为奥林匹斯众神的一员。
He sleeps with his own cousin, Leto, and the Leto, in due course, gives birth to twins, Apollo and Artemis, who, again, will will join the ranks of the gods on Olympus.
他还与他的表侄女迈亚结合，迈亚的儿子是赫尔墨斯，众神的信使，同样是奥林匹斯神之一。
And he sleeps with his second cousin, Maya, and Maya's son is Hermes, the messenger of the gods, again, one of the Olympians.
所以他对其他神祇和自己的家人也都有很多类似的风流韵事。
So lots of kind of me tooing with other gods and with his own family.
是的。
Yeah.
但这还只是没提到他让众多凡间女子怀孕的事。
But that's not even to mention all the many mortal women he gets pregnant.
因此，可怜的赫拉，我的意思是，她的身份由她与宙斯的婚姻所定义。
And so understandably, poor Hera, I mean, she's defined by her marriage to Zeus.
当然，她是天界的女王，但她也因极度合理的嫉妒和怨恨而被定义——宙斯不断外出与其他女子幽会，并迫害那些她视为情敌的女性。
Of course, she's the queen of the heavens, but she's also defined by her entirely understandable jealousy and resentment of the fact that Zeus is endlessly going off and sleeping with other women and persecution of all these women who she sees as her rivals.
所以你完全正确地将这一点作为问题提出来，上帝的所作所为。
And so you're absolutely right to fix on this as an issue, the God of the Bible.
他并没有这样行事。
He's not behaving like this.
没错。
No.
绝对不是。
Definitely not.
那么宙斯到底怎么了？
So what's going on with Zeus?
宙斯怎么能既辉煌、伟大、至高无上、公正，又是个通奸者和强奸犯呢？
How can Zeus be both glorious and great and supreme and just and all of that and an adulterer and a rapist?
我认为我们应该在本播客的后半部分来探讨这个问题。
Well, I think we should address that question in the second half of this podcast.
不仅如此，我们还来看看宙斯及其崇拜的深厚历史，以及它们向我们揭示的古希腊世界。
And not only that, but let's have a little look at the deep history of Zeus and his cult and where they came from and what they tell us about the world of the ancient Greeks.
那我们到时候再见。
So we'll see you then.
本集由《伦敦书评》赞助播出。
This episode is brought to you by the London Review of Books.
汤姆，正如你所知，一些资料表明，特洛伊的海伦实际上从未踏上过特洛伊的土地。
Now, Tom, as you well know, some sources suggest that Helen of Troy never actually set foot in Troy.
海伦在神话中的角色不断变化。
Helen's role in myth is constantly shifting.
有时她是女神。
Sometimes she's a goddess.
有时她是替罪羊。
Sometimes she's a scapegoat.
有时她只是一个幻影。
Sometimes she's a phantom.
关于这个话题，《伦敦书评》刚刚免费开放了两篇极其出色的论文。
Now on this subject, the LRB, the London Review of Books, has just de paywalled two absolutely superb essays.
其中一篇是玛丽娜·华纳写的，探讨了海伦·特洛伊的形态变幻传说。
So one of them is by Marina Warner, and that's one about Helen of Troy's shape shifting legend.
另一篇是玛丽·比尔德写的，她论述了古典故事如何被用来框定和压制女性权力。
And the other is Mary Beard, and she is writing about how classical stories have been used to frame and to restrain female power.
它们共同表明，神话是历史的闪烁阴影。
Together, they show that myth is the flickering shadow of history.
它是一种被不断重塑、删改和重写以适应执笔之人需求的工具。
It's a tool reshaped, redacted, and rewritten to suit whoever holds the pen.
这正是《伦敦书评》最擅长的地方。
That's what the London Review of Books does best.
严肃的历史，文学的深度。
Serious history, literary depth.
而且，汤姆，你知道吗？
And, Tom, you know what?
它有胆量让边缘保持毛糙。
It has the nerve to leave the edges frayed.
所以现在就去《伦敦书评》网站阅读这两篇文章吧。
So read both pieces now at the LRB website.
如果你喜欢它们，就可以订阅以访问他们的完整档案。
And if you enjoy them, then you can subscribe to access their full archive.
《伦敦书评》正在提供仅需12英镑的六个月订阅。
LRB are offering six months for just £12.
这简直太值了。
It's unbelievable value.
而且更有价值的是，还送一个免费的托特包。
Plus even better value, a free tote bag.
访问 lrb.me/history。
Visit lrb.me/history.
就是 lrb.me/history。
That is lrb.me/history.
本集由优步赞助播出。
This episode is brought to you by Uber.
你有没有过那种感觉，当有人在你最需要的时候出现？
Now do you know that feeling when someone shows up for
你什么时候都需要这样的人，而优步懂这一点。
you when you need it most?
优步懂这一点。
We all need that sometimes, and Uber knows it.
Uber不仅仅是一次乘车或一顿送餐。
Uber isn't just a ride or a meal delivered.
无论发生什么，它都会准时出现。
It's showing up no matter what.
就像为远在他乡的朋友，在他们生病时送去汤，在他们低落时寄去鲜花。
Like for your long distance friends, bringing soup when they're sick, sending flowers when they're down.
在真正重要的时刻，无论什么事，你都会出现。
When it really matters, whatever it is, you show up.
只要有需要，我们就会出发。
Where there's a will, we're on our way.
Uber，即刻出发。
Uber, on our way.
今天就下载应用吧。
Download the app today.
奥林匹斯的十二位神祇同意以完全的人类形态现身。
The 12 gods of Olympus agreed to appear as entirely human.
这是众神首次放弃抽象形态和动物头部。
It was the first time a group of divinities had renounced abstraction and animal heads.
不再有藏在花朵或卍字背后的不可言说之物。
No more the unrepresentable behind the flower or the swastika.
不再有狰狞的生物、从天而降的石头、漩涡。
No more the monstrous creature, the stone fallen from heaven, the whirlpool.
如今，众神拥有了冷峻光滑的肌肤，或不真实的温润体态，以及清晰可见肌肉起伏、长静脉的身躯。
Now the gods took on a cool, polished skin or an unreal warmth and a body where you could see the ripple of muscles, the long veins.
这一转变带来了新的兴奋，也带来了新的恐惧。
The change brought with it a new exhilaration and a new terror.
那就是罗贝托·科拉索的《卡德摩斯与哈莫尼亚的婚礼》。
So that was Roberto Colasso's The Marriage of Cadmus and Harmony.
我读它时，仿佛自己懂它讲的是什么。
I'm reading it as though I know what it's about.
其实我从来没读过这本书，汤姆。
I've actually never read it, Tom.
这是一本极其奇特的书，一本杰出的、极具原创性的书。
It's a fantastically odd book, brilliant book, brilliantly original.
它呈现了希腊神话，但方式是你以前从未读过的。
It gives you the Greek myths, but in a way that you've never read them before.
它一再让你停下来思考希腊神话中独特而怪异的地方。
And again and again, it kind of brings you up short against what is distinctive and strange about Greek myth.
我认为这是一个完美的例子，因为我们小时候就读过希腊诸神的故事。
And I think that's a kind of perfect example because we read about the Greek gods as children.
当你将它们与其他文化的神祇——比如埃及、巴比伦或印度的神——相比时，很容易忘记它们有多怪异。
It can be easy to forget how strange they are when compared to the gods of other cultures, you know, Egyptian or Babylonian or Indian gods.
而希腊诸神的怪异之处，恰恰在于它们非常人性化，或者说近乎超人。
And the way in which the strangeness of the Greek gods is precisely that they are kind of so human, or perhaps you could say kind of hyperhuman.
当你将它们与其他神系的神祇相比时，它们显得非常非常怪异。
And they are very, very strange when you compare them to the gods of other pantheons.
你知道，科洛索斯指的就是那些动物脑袋，你立刻会想到埃及诸神。
You know, mean, that's what Colossus is referring to, the animal heads, and you immediately think of the Egyptian gods.
我想，正因如此，孩子们才觉得希腊诸神的故事如此吸引人，也正因如此，这些角色才能在文学中长久流传。
And I guess that in turn, that's one of the reasons why children find the stories of the Greek gods so appealing, and it's why they endure as literary characters.
他们如此人性化，以至于变得超凡脱俗。
They're kind of so human that they become superhuman.
你知道，他们扮演着超级英雄的角色，
You know, they play the role of superheroes in
我本来想说，把他们比作超级英雄可能听起来太 trivial 了。
Well, was about to say superheroes might sound a very trivial comparison.
但关键在于，漫画中的超级英雄既远超常人，又非常人性化。
But the point about, you know, comic book superheroes is that they're both far greater than us, and they are very human.
而诸神身上那种琐碎、平凡、甚至有点贬义的特质，恰恰让它们对儿童读者具有吸引力。
And the sort of petty, trivial, slightly demeaning qualities with which the gods are imbued, that's what makes them appealing to a child reader.
对吧？
Right?
他们嫉妒，他们卑劣，是的。
That they're jealous, and they're they're venal Yeah.
而且他们会撒谎、欺骗，做所有这类事情。
And they lie and cheat and all of those kinds of things.
也就是说，在对希腊诸神的描绘中，存在着各种矛盾、复杂性和模棱两可之处。
Which is to say that in the portrayal of the Greek gods, there are all kinds of of contradictions and complexities and ambivalences.
但诗人们——赫西俄德、荷马，以及我们将在本系列中探讨的其他伟大诗人——将这些特质融合在一起，并以极其有力的方式呈现，使得宙斯和其他奥林匹斯神祇，正如我们一直所说的，至今仍比任何其他同等神系中的神祇更令人着迷。
But the achievement of the poets, Hesiod, Homer, and then the other great poets that we'll be looking at over the course of the series, they kind of synthesise them, and they do it to such potent effect that Zeus and the other Olympians, you know, as we keep saying, continue to fascinate to this day far more than any other group of gods, I would say, from any comparable pantheon.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Definitely.
但多米尼克，你在休息前问过，宙斯性格中的这些矛盾从何而来？它们又是如何被调和的？
But, Dominic, you were asking before the break, where do these contradictions come from, say, in the character of Zeus, and how are they reconciled?
赫西俄德在《神谱》中将宙斯的起源解释为源自大地与天空。
Hesiod in the Theogony explains the origins of Zeus in terms of his descent from from the earth and from the heavens.
但自十八世纪末以来，学者们就已经知道得更清楚了，特别是自1786年以来。
But scholars since the end of the eighteenth century have known better, specifically since 1786.
因为那一年，一位名叫威廉·琼斯爵士的英国学者在加尔各答发表了一次演讲。
Because that was the year when a British scholar in Calcutta, a guy called Sir William Jones, gave a lecture in Calcutta.
在演讲中，他证明了希腊语、拉丁语和梵语——印度的古代语言——都共享一个共同的语言根源。
And in it, he demonstrated that Greek, Latin, Sanskrit, the ancient language of India, these languages all shared a common linguistic root.
当你查看宙斯的名字时，这一点可以非常清楚地看到。
And you can see this very clearly when you look at the name of Zeus.
因此，宙斯的全名是宙斯·帕特尔，即父神宙斯。
So the full name of Zeus is Zeus Pater, father Zeus.
如果你想到罗马神话中众神之王的名字朱庇特，显然这是同一个名字。
And if you think of the the name of the king of the the gods in Rome, Jupiter, it's clearly the same name.
是的。
Yeah.
而在梵语中，据我所知，它是迪奥斯·帕特尔。
And in Sanskrit, I gather it's Dios Pater.
因此，这生动地说明了这三种古代语言显然拥有共同的起源。
So it's a kind of emblematic illustration of the way in which those three ancient languages clearly had a common root.
而今天，学者们的共识是，宙斯实际上起源于如今的乌克兰地区，是被称为印欧人的族群所崇拜的天空之神；早在荷马和赫西俄德开始撰写关于宙斯的故事时，他可能已经存在了两到三千年。
And today, the consensus among scholars would be that Zeus originated actually in what is now Ukraine as the sky god of a people that philologists call Indo Europeans, and that already by the time that Homer and Hesiod are sitting down to write about Zeus, he's maybe two, three millennia old.
汤姆，我可以问个外行的问题吗？
Tom, can I ask a layman's question?
实际上，你可能答不上来。
Actually, you might not be able to answer this.
人们怎么可能知道宙斯的起源呢？
How can people possibly know where Zeus came from?
他们是怎么追溯到乌克兰的呢？
How have they been able to trace that back to Ukraine?
这是一个非常复杂的问题，恐怕需要一整集来讲解。
It's a very complicated question, and I think would require an entire episode.
做这样一集一定会很有趣。
It'd be fun to do that episode.
这涉及到大量的语言学知识。
It involved a lot of linguistics.
对。
Right.
人们曾认为印欧人可能来自安纳托利亚或更靠近印度的地区。
People thought maybe that the Indo Europeans came from Anatolia or further towards India.
这是基于语言学和考古学的证据。
It's based on philological and archaeological evidence.
好的。
K.
也许我们可以做一个关于这个的专题，因为它确实非常有趣。
And maybe we could do an episode on that because it is very, very interesting.
这是个很好的回答，因为它既让人满意，又有些回避问题，
That's a very good answer because it's someone saying it's just satisfying, but also evasive,
但这并不是回避。
which is It's not evasive.
但如果我们继续往下讲，我没时间了
But if we're gonna get on with this, I haven't got time to
当然要深入讲。
go into Of course.
人们是如何确定印欧人的发源地的。
How people have identified the homeland of the Indo European.
我知道你懂，但你
I know you know it, but you
只是不想浪费时间告诉我。
just don't wanna waste time telling me.
接着说。
Go on.
继续讲你的故事。
Continue with your story.
正是如此。
Exactly so.
但我认为你可以假设希腊人是印欧语系的使用者，他们是从北方进入希腊的，因此，希腊各地都尊奉宙斯为众神之王，因为他们的祖先早在抵达希腊、尚未形成独立的希腊族群之前，就已经这样做了。
But I think you can assume that the Greeks are Indo European speakers, that they are coming into Greece from the North, and that, therefore, this is why the Greeks everywhere acknowledge Zeus as as the king of the gods because their ancestors have been doing so long before they ever came to Greece and came to identify themselves as distinct communities of Greeks.
所以，在他们成为希腊人之前，所有希腊人早就共享了这一点，你明白我的意思吧。
So that's something that that all the Greeks shared long before they became Greek, if you see what I mean.
至于希腊性，当我们想到希腊性时，你想到的是那些希腊岛屿啊、诸如此类的刻板印象吧。
And the Greekness so when we think of the Greekness, you're thinking of, you know, the Greek islands, blah blah blah blah blah, you know, stereotypical images of Greece.
但在这个时期，希腊性其实更复杂、更微妙，不是吗？
And yet Greekness is slightly more it's a more slippery and a more nuanced kind of concept in this period, isn't it?
因为即使是那些最典型的希腊神话，也带有其他文化的印记，对吧？
Because even the the Greek myth, the Greekest of stories, have the stamp of other cultures, don't they?
这反映了创作这些故事的两位诗人的背景，他们俩都
And that reflects the background of the two poets who are writing them, who are both
是的。
Yeah.
我想问的是，你会不会说他们处于希腊世界的边缘？
I guess, on the would you say they're on the periphery of the Greek world?
是这样吗？
Is that is that right?
是的。
Yeah.
荷马据说生活在小亚细亚海岸外的希俄斯岛上。
So Homer is said to have lived on the island of Chios, which is just off the coast of Anatolia.
正如我们所听到的，赫西俄德的父亲是从小亚细亚迁移到希腊的。
And Hesiod, as we heard, he's the son of a man who had moved from Anatolia to Greece.
我认为，如今学者们的共识是，这一点在很大程度上解释了他们诗歌中的一些元素——这些元素并非源自某种原始的印欧传统，而是源于巴比伦、巴比伦尼亚和美索不达米亚的伟大文明。
And it is, I would say, the consensus now among scholars that this does much to explain elements in their poetry that seems to derive ultimately not from this kind of Inchoate Indo European tradition, but from the great civilizations of Babylon, of Babylonia, of Mesopotamia.
其中之一是神代更替，正如马丁·韦斯特所言，伴随着诸神之间粗野而怪异的暴力行为——阉割、吞食，以及彼此猛烈攻击的故事。
So one of these is the succession of one generation of gods by another, and to quote Martin West, complete with stories of crude and bizarre acts of violence of gods castrating, swallowing, and generally clobbering each other.
这种神代更替的观念是一种巴比伦式的概念，希腊诗人似乎吸收了它。
This is a kind of Babylonian notion that the Greek poets seem to have kind of absorbed.
海洋、冥界和天空由三位神祇分治，这也明显是巴比伦的传统。
The division of the seas, the underworld, and the sky between three gods, that's also very much a kind of Babylonian tradition.
还有，万神殿中最主要的神祇数量为十二位，这一观念也是如此。
And also the idea that the preeminent gods of of a pantheon are 12 in number.
因此，这些是希腊人对他们神系的所有基本观念，但它们似乎确实源自巴比伦。
So these are all very foundational notions that the Greeks have of their pantheon, and yet they do seem to have come from Babylonia.
对。
Right.
这反映了一个特定的希腊历史时刻，当时希腊人正从特洛伊战争后人们常称为‘黑暗时代’的崩溃中恢复。
And it reflects, I think, a particular moment in Greek history where they're recovering from the collapse that people have always called the dark ages in the wake of the Trojan War.
而我们今天所认识的古典文明的开端，即古风时期的希腊文明，正在兴起。
And what we would recognise today as as the beginnings of classical civilisation, archaic Greek civilisation, is emerging.
他们对更广阔世界的影响持开放态度，这些来自巴比伦的传统是其中之一，当然，来自腓尼基人的字母系统也是另一个例子。
And they are open to influences from the broader world of which these traditions that are coming from from the Babylonians would be one, but also, of course, the alphabet coming from the Phoenicians would be another.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Of course.
而且，是否可以进一步说，一些最著名、最受推崇的希腊故事，比如特洛伊战争，也受到巴比伦传统的影响，其希腊性可能比我们想象的要少？
And is it not the case to push that even further that a couple of the most famous, most celebrated Greek stories of all time, one of which is the Trojan War, that these are influenced by Babylonian traditions as well and are less Greek than we might imagine?
我认为不是特洛伊战争本身的故事。
I think not the story of the Trojan War itself.
那是印欧人整体的问题。
That's a whole not the option of the Indo Europeans.
另一个重大问题是，特洛伊战争是否真实发生过。
That's another massive question whether the Trojan War was historical.
但特洛伊战争是被神灵刻意挑起的这种观念，最终似乎也源自美索不达米亚。
But the sense of the Trojan War as having been deliberately stirred up by the gods, that does ultimately seem again to come from Mesopotamia.
赫西俄德声称，宙斯故意煽动特洛伊战争，以及发生在几代人之前的另一场战争——即七门城底比斯的战争，那是为了争夺俄狄浦斯的羊群而爆发的。
The claim that Hesiod gives is that Zeus deliberately encourages the Trojan War and also another war that had happened a couple of generations before that, which is war before seven gated Thebes as rivals fought over the flocks of Oedipus.
底比斯当然位于他生活的彼奥提亚，我们将在下一期节目中探讨这场战争以及俄狄浦斯是谁。
So Thebes, of course, is in Boeotia where he lived, and we will be coming to this war and who Oedipus was in our next episode.
但你有这场底比斯战争和特洛伊战争，这似乎源自巴比伦的传统，即人类经历不同的时代，神灵会针对这些不同世代的人类进行灭绝。
But you have this the Theban war and the Trojan war, and this does seem to come from this Babylonian tradition that you'd had different ages of humanity, that the gods target these kind of different generations of humans for extermination.
而且，正如学者们所言，这似乎是一种东方化的影响。
And, again, it seems to be a kind of an orientalizing influence, as scholars have put it.
但这些故事中有一些 distinctly 希腊特色的东西，那就是宙斯在推动忒拜战争和特洛伊战争时，意图消灭某一类特定的人类——即英雄。
But there is something that is distinctively Greek about these stories, and that is the notion that what Zeus is doing when he fosters the Theban War and then the Trojan War is to wipe out a specific class of human being, and that is namely heroes.
而‘英雄’这一概念似乎是希腊独有的。
And the notion of heroes is something that seems distinctively Greek.
它并不属于印欧祖先的传统。
It's not part of the ancestral Indo European tradition.
它似乎也不是源自巴比伦。
It doesn't seem to come from Babylonia.
也许，英雄究竟是谁或是什么，这或许是解释宙斯为何是这样一位神的关键。
This perhaps, you know, who or what the heroes are, perhaps this is the key to explaining why Zeus is the kind of god that he is.
因为英雄的定义本质上是那些由不朽者所生或其后裔，尤其是宙斯的后裔，因此他们介于凡人与不朽者之间。
Because the definition of a hero effectively is that they are men who are fathered by or descended from immortals and specifically and particularly Zeus, and that they are therefore midway between mortals and immortals.
他们是城市的建立者。
They are founders of cities.
他们是屠龙降魔的战士。
They are fighters of monsters.
赫西俄德的观点是，宙斯通过让英雄遍布世界，从奥林匹斯山降临并与凡间女子结合生育英雄，实现了某种宇宙秩序和事物的平衡，但他无法让这种状态长久维持，原因从未完全阐明。
And Hesiod's take is that Zeus, by populating the world with heroes, by descending from Olympus and fathering these heroes on mortal women, had achieved a kind of cosmic order, a kind of balance in the way of things, but he couldn't allow it to last for too long for reasons that are never entirely explained.
这就是为什么他随后决定发动忒拜战争和特洛伊战争的原因。
And this is why he then decides to to launch the Theban and Trojan wars.
那么，汤姆，我们来深入探讨一下这个观点吧。
So let's dig into this a little bit, Tom.
这个观念是从哪里来的呢？
Where does this come from?
为什么人们会创造出英雄这个概念？
Why would people come up with the idea of heroes?
你认为这是否体现了希腊文明的独特之处？
Does it express something distinctive about Greek civilization, do think?
我认为确实如此，我认为这反映了希腊世界中独立城邦的多样性和数量。
I think it does, and I think it expresses the sheer variety and number of independent cities Ah.
你在希腊世界中拥有的城邦数量之多。
That you have in the Greek world.
它们都属于希腊世界，但各自独特且独立。
They're all part of the Greek world, but they're all distinctive and independent.
这些城市本质上都参与对宙斯的崇拜，因此希望宣称与他有某种特殊的亲密关系。
All these cities, essentially, you know, they share in the worship of Zeus, and so they want to claim a kind of particular intimacy with him.
而最直接的方式就是将自己与那些由宙斯直接生育的英雄联系起来。
And the obvious way to do this is to associate themselves with heroes who had been directly fathered by Zeus.
哦，对。
Oh, right.
我想，这正是解释了为何有如此多关于宙斯强暴的传说的原因。
And this, I think, is what explains the endless catalog of rapes that are attributed to Zeus.
你可以看看，比如希腊北部的大陆宙斯、中部城市的传说，以及南部城市的传说，它们都有这类故事。
So you could look at, say, Mainland Zeus, countries in the North, cities in the in the middle of Greece, cities in the South, they all have these stories.
在北部，有马其顿人，也就是亚历山大大帝的祖先。
So in the North, you have the Macedonians, the people that Alexander the Great will will come from.
是的。
Yep.
他们声称自己是英雄马其顿的后裔，而马其顿的父亲是宙斯。
They claimed a line of descent from a hero called Macedon whose father was Zeus.
位于希腊中部、靠近雅典的麦加拉城公民，声称自己是宙斯之子麦加罗斯的后裔。
The citizens of Megara in the in the middle of Greece, just round from Athens, they claim descent from a son of Zeus called Megaros.
伯罗奔尼撒半岛的阿卡迪亚人——希腊南部地区——声称自己是宙斯之子阿卡斯的后裔。
The Arcadians in the Peloponnese, the kind of the southern bit of Greece, they claim descent from a son of Zeus called Arcas.
甚至‘希腊’这个名字，希腊人自己并不这么称呼。
And even the name of Greece the Greeks didn't call themselves Greeks.
他们称自己为赫伦人。
They called themselves Hellenes.
他们居住的土地叫赫拉斯。
They lived in a land called Hellas.
但我们称他们为希腊人，是因为有一位叫格律科斯的人生活在伊庇鲁斯——也就是如今的北希腊和阿尔巴尼亚一带。
But we called them Greeks because there was a guy called Grykos who lived in Epirus, kind of what's now Northern Greece and and Albania.
格律科斯是被称为格律科伊人的祖先，罗马人采纳了这一说法，因此我们称希腊人为希腊人。
And Grykos had been the father of of these people called the Grykoi, and the Romans picked up on this, and that's why we call the Greeks Greeks.
但话说回来，谁还记得格律科斯呢？
But, I mean, who remembers Grykos?
我的意思是，他是个完全无名的英雄。
Mean, he's a completely anonymous hero.
所以，英雄的真正意义在于，他们反映了希腊政治格局的分裂，以及众多城邦之间的竞争，每个城邦都需要一个父辈形象。
So, really, what the point of heroes is they're reflecting the fragmentation of the Greek political landscape and the fact there are so many competing cities, and they each needs a father figure.
是的。
Yeah.
但他们不想直接宣称自己是神的后裔，因为神是普世的，所以他们本质上创造了一个折中的祖先来赋予自己合法性。
But they don't wanna claim a god because the gods are universal, so they basically invent a tear down that will give them legitimacy.
对。
Yeah.
而且我觉得宙斯特别具有普世性。
And I think Zeus specifically is universal.
没错。
Right.
比如，雅典娜显然是雅典的守护神，其他城市也宣称各自有特定的奥林匹斯神作为守护者，但宙斯是整个希腊世界的神。
So Athena, for instance, is obviously the patron specifically of Athens, and there are other cities that claim various Olympians as their particular patron, but Zeus is for the entire Greek world.
所以我认为这是解释英雄身份的一个原因。
So I think that's one explanation for who the heroes are.
我认为，英雄们也反映了非常古老的传统，这些传统主要集中在伯罗奔尼撒北部，围绕阿尔戈斯和迈锡尼。
There I think also they reflect traditions that are are really very ancient, And these traditions tend to be focused on the Northern Peloponnese around Argos, around Mycenae.
因此，与这些城市相关的英雄似乎源自极为尊崇的传统。
So heroes who are associated with those cities seem to be drawing on kind of really venerable traditions.
这些英雄普遍受欢迎，广为人知。
And these are the heroes who are kind of universally popular, universally known.
对。
Right.
诗人会写关于他们的诗篇。
Poets write about them.
他们也出现在陶器或其他器物上。
They appear on pots or whatever.
这些英雄的典型代表就是荷马笔下的英雄。
And the obvious examples of these are the heroes of Homer.
是的。
Yep.
比如阿伽门农和墨涅拉俄斯。
So Agamemnon and Menelaus.
阿伽门农是迈锡尼的国王。
Agamemnon is the king of Mycenae.
墨涅拉俄斯是斯巴达的国王。
Menelaus is the king of Sparta.
但你也能找到一些早在特洛伊战争数代之前就活跃于这一地区的英雄。
But you also have heroes from that region who go back several generations before the Trojan War.
这些人物是所有希腊英雄中最著名的几位之一。
And these figures are some of the most famous of all Greek heroes.
他们是屠龙者，因为他们生活在一个怪物横行的时代，而其中最强大的两个怪物都是宙斯的儿子。
They are monster slayers because they live in an age when the world is teeming with monsters, and the two most formidable of these are both sons of Zeus.
第一个是珀尔修斯，他后来成为阿尔戈斯的国王，接着是他的曾孙，有史以来最强壮的人——赫拉克勒斯。
So the first is Perseus, who comes to rule as the king of Argos, and then there is his great grandson, the strongest man who ever lived, and this is Hercules.
任何读过《格林神话》的孩子，甚至没读过的人，都会熟悉这两个角色。
Anybody who's read the Green Myths as a child or or even who hasn't will be aware of these two characters.
珀尔修斯是我儿子最喜爱的希腊英雄，顺便说一下。
So Perseus, my son's favorite Greek hero, by the way.
我也是。
Mine as well.
我一直很喜欢珀尔修斯。
I always liked Perseus.
真的吗？
Oh, really?
是的。
Yeah.
他特别喜欢珀尔修斯。
He loved Perseus.
所以他 famously杀死了蛇发女妖美杜莎。
So he killed Medusa the Gorgon famously.
她啊，你知道的，头发很可怕。
She was a you know, had terrible hair.
不过，她原本可不是这样的。
Well, not originally, though.
真的吗？
Really?
她原本有一头美丽的秀发，后来才被变成了盘绕嘶嘶作响的蛇。
She had beautiful hair, and then it gets turned into into kind of coiling, hissing snakes.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Of course.
这算是一种惩罚，对吧？
It's kind of punishment, isn't it?
然后她因为太丑了，能把人变成石头。
And then she turns people to stone because she's so ugly.
嗯，最初她确实很丑。
Well, originally, she was ugly.
但到了五世纪，这个故事有了些许变化。
But by the fifth century, that story has slightly changed.
于是她被描述为面容白皙的美杜莎，人们认为她既极其美丽又极其丑陋，而她头发的恐怖恰恰中和了她面容的美丽。
So she's described as as fair cheeked Medusa, and there's this idea that she's simultaneously terribly beautiful and terribly ugly, and it's the horror of her hair that offsets the beauty of her face.
是的。
Yeah.
而珀尔修斯，众所周知，得到了雅典娜的帮助。
And Perseus, famously, you know, he he gets helped by Athena.
他得到了赫尔墨斯的帮助，赫尔墨斯给了他一双带翅膀的凉鞋。
He gets helped by Hermes who gives him his wing sandals.
然后他就出发了。
He goes off.
他通过照镜子的方式砍下了美杜莎的头。
He he cuts off the head of Medusa, by looking into a mirror as he does so.
然后他拿到头颅，放进袋子里，离开了。
He then gets the head, puts it in a sack, goes off.
他救下了公主安德洛墨达，让她免于海怪的袭击，将海怪变成石头，最终成为阿尔戈斯的国王，并将美杜莎的头颅交给雅典娜，雅典娜将其安放在自己的盾牌上，以震慑所有敌人。
He rescues Andromeda, a princess, from a sea monster, turns the sea monster into stone, ends up king of Argos, and gives the Medusa's head to Athena who puts it on her shield to strike terror into all that she fights.
所以他是一位著名的英雄，但不如赫拉克勒斯出名，赫拉克勒斯才是最伟大的怪物猎手。
So he's a famous hero, but he's not as famous as Hercules, who is the greatest of all monster killers.
而赫拉克勒斯，由于一些复杂的原因，我们就不细说了，不过将来我们可以专门做一期关于赫拉克勒斯的节目。
And Heracles, for complicated reasons that we won't go into, although it would be great to do an episode on Heracles at at some point.
是的。
Yeah.
但他必须完成十二项任务，其中很多任务都涉及杀死怪物。
But he has to do these 12 labors, and a lot of these labors involve the killing of monsters.
比如涅墨亚狮子，它由赫拉饲养，拥有刀枪不入的皮毛。
So there's the Nemean lion, which had been raised by by Hera, has an invulnerable hide.
你知道，它无法被箭矢或剑刃等任何武器砍伤。
You know, it can't be cut by arrows or swords or whatever.
所以赫拉克勒斯徒手勒死了它，然后用它自己的爪子剥下皮，并从此将它作为铠甲穿着。
So Hercules throttles it and then skins it using its own claws, And he, from that point on, wears it as a kind of armor.
因此，你总能通过他头上和肩上披着的狮皮来认出赫拉克勒斯。
So you can always recognize Hercules because he has the skin of a lion draped over his head and his shoulders.
然后是九头蛇，这是我们历史上最喜爱的隐喻之一。
Then there's the hydra, one of our favorite metaphors on the rest of history.
每砍掉一个头，就会再长出两个，于是赫拉克勒斯用燃烧的火把灼烧伤口来击败它。
Every time you cut a head off, another one grows back, and so Hercules defeats it by taking a blazing torch and searing the flesh.
还有厄律曼托斯野猪，他把它诱捕在雪堆里。
There's the Erymanthian boar, which he captures in a snowdrift.
还有斯廷法利斯湖鸟，它们长着可怕的金属羽毛和青铜色的喙，会吞噬人类，赫拉克勒斯击败了它们。
There's the Stymphalian birds, which have terrible metal feathers, kind of bronze beaks, devour men, Hercules defeats them.
他弄来一个响器，用响器的声音惊飞了斯廷法利斯湖鸟，然后用箭射杀了它们。
He gets a rattle, and the noise of the rattle scares the Stymphalian birds off, and then he shoots them with his arrows.
有一头克里特公牛，它是米诺陶的父亲。
There's a Cretan bull, which is the father of the minotaur.
还有狄俄墨得斯的马，它们和斯廷法利斯鸟一样，以血肉为食。
There's the mares of Diomedes, which, again, eat flesh like the Symphalian birds.
还有革律翁，他在西方远方拥有牛群。
There's Geryon who has cattle in the Far West.
我们在关于汉尼拔的那期节目中提到过他，赫拉克勒斯偷走了革律翁的牛群，驱赶它们穿越西班牙、高卢，最终抵达意大利。
We talked about him in the episode on Hannibal, how Hercules steals the cattle from Gerion and drives them back through Spain and Gaul and down through Italy.
然后是刻耳柏洛斯，和革律翁一样，通常被描绘成有三个头。
And then the Cerberus, who, like Gerion, conventionally is portrayed with three heads.
它是看守冥界入口的狗，尾巴是蛇。
He's the dog that guards the entrance to the underworld and has snakes for his tail.
但根据赫西俄德的说法，它实际上有五十个头。
But according to Hesiod, he actually had 50 heads.
所以，这又为各种扩展提供了无限可能。
So again, there's kind of all kinds of potential there for elaboration.
所以，很明显，珀尔修斯和赫拉克勒斯有很多
So, obviously, Perseus and Hercules have a
共同之处。
lot in common.
他们在某种程度上扮演着相似的角色，不是吗？
They're fulfilling similar roles to some degree, aren't they?
他们真正共同的一点是，他们都是宙斯的孩子。
And one of the things they really have in common is they're both the children of Zeus.
在两种情况下，你都有宙斯和一位凡人母亲，而宙斯都以伪装的身份接近了母亲。
So in both cases, you've got Zeus and you've got a mortal mother, and Zeus has come to the mother, in both cases, disguised.
他以一种在我看来不太可信的方式，拜访了珀尔修斯的母亲达娜厄，
So he visited Perseus' mother, Danae, disguised, implausibly, I think,
化作一场金雨。
as a shower of gold.
哦，你觉得这不太可信？
Oh, you think that's implausible?
是的
Yeah.
而他的孙子赫拉克勒斯的母亲，阿尔克墨涅，则被宙斯伪装成她的丈夫安菲特律翁，因为安菲特律翁当时正在战场上，宙斯便装扮成他的样子，等等。
And his grandson, Hercules' mother, alchemy, disguised as her husband, Amphitrion, because Amphitrion is is off at the battlefield, and Zeus is dressed up as him and whatever.
那么，这背后意味着什么？
Now what's going on there?
这一切究竟说明了什么？
What's all that about?
通过孕育这两位英雄，宙斯正在帮助清除世间的怪物。
Well, by fathering these two heroes, Zeus is is helping to cleanse the world of monsters.
我们所描述的许多怪物都源自一个早于奥林匹斯神族的时代背景。
A lot of the monsters we've described emerged from a kind of context that reaches back to a period before the Olympians.
因此，宙斯某种程度上是在清理这个区域的混乱。
So there's a sense that Zeus is cleaning up the neighborhood
对。
Right.
通过生育这些英雄。
By fathering these heroes.
好的。
Okay.
特别是赫拉克勒斯，他不仅仅是在清除世上的怪物。
With Hercules, particularly, he doesn't just cleanse the world of monsters.
他最终还会前来拯救众神。
He he also he will end up coming to the rescue of the gods.
有一个预言说，那些在乌拉诺斯的睾丸被抛洒到世界各地、血液和精液溅落时诞生的巨人，已经成长起来。
There's a prophecy that the giants who were born when Uranus' testicles were flung across the world and the blood and semen splashed and the giants grew up.
他们并没有从舞台上消失。
They have not gone from the scene.
他们仍在暗中潜伏。
They're lurking around.
并且早已预言，他们将进攻奥林匹斯山，只有赫拉克勒斯才能拯救众神，使其免于失败。
And it's been foretold that they will attack at Olympus and that only Hercules will be able to save the gods from defeat.
因此，这也是希腊人解释宙斯为何与阿尔克墨涅生下赫拉克勒斯的另一个原因。
And so that's another reason the Greeks come to explain why Zeus had had fathered Heracles on Alcmene.
就连赫拉，她尤其迫害赫拉克勒斯，也特别怨恨他是宙斯与其他女人所生的儿子。
Even Hera, who had particularly persecuted Heracles, She she was particularly resentful of the fact that he was Zeus' son by another woman.
但最终她与赫拉克勒斯和解了，因为赫拉克勒斯是唯一一位凡人英雄，最终成为了神。
She ends up being reconciled with Hercules in the end because Hercules uniquely among mortal heroes ends up becoming a god himself.
他的凡人躯体被火葬堆焚烧。
His mortal body is consumed by a pyre.
火焰烧尽了他的血肉，但他乘着战车升上奥林匹斯山，赫拉迎接了他，并将她与宙斯所生的女儿许配给他为妻。
Flames burn away the flesh, but he ascends in a chariot up to Olympus where he is welcomed by Hera who gives him he be her daughter by Zeus to be Hercules' wife.
赫拉克勒斯这个名字的字面意思是‘赫拉的荣耀’。
The literal meaning of Hercules is the glory of Hera.
所以我想你可以说，宙斯只是在做他必须做的事，以保卫自己的王座。
So I guess you could say that, you know, Zeus is doing what has to be done to defend his throne.
在希腊人看来，宙斯伪装自己并与这些女性结合的行为，难道就没有一丝不妥吗？
And there's no sense, do you think, among the Greeks that Zeus has behaved badly in in disguising himself and sleeping with these women?
这成为了古典时期一些最伟大诗人的重大问题，古典时期即公元前五世纪的希腊黄金时代，这一问题在雅典的一些最著名的诗人和作家笔下得到了探讨。
Well, this becomes the huge question for some of the greatest poets who write in the classical period, the golden age of Greece in the fifth century, that in the classical period, the fifth century BC, will be explored by some of the most celebrated poets and writers in Athens.
核心问题是：神的残酷与他们作为正义之神的形象，是否能够调和？
And the question essentially is, can the cruelty of the gods and a sense of them being just, is it possible to reconcile them?
你知道，这个问题无疑从赫西俄德的时代发展到了公元前五世纪雅典的黄金时代。
And, you know, this question undoubtedly evolves from the age of Hesiod up to the age of the golden age of Athens in the fifth century BC.
因此，多米尼克，我认为在下一期节目中，我们应该聚焦于此。
And so that's why, Dominic, I think in our next episode, that's what we should focus on.
是的。
Yes.
这个主意真棒。
What a great idea.
在那一期节目中，我们将前往底比斯城，那里是国王俄狄浦斯的故乡，这个家族即使按照希腊神话的标准来看，也堪称异常 dysfunctional。
In that episode, we will be travelling to the city of Thebes, which was the home of king Oedipus, and a family that even by the standards of Greek myth was quite sensationally dysfunctional.
所以人们将在周四收听到这一期节目。
So people will be able to hear that episode on Thursday.
但其实，你知道吗？
But, actually, do you know what?
如果你等不及，真的等不及了，那就登上我们自己的奥林匹斯山，加入我们亲爱的众神阵营和聊天社区，成为therestishistory.com上的不朽者吧。
If you can't wait, if you absolutely can't wait, the way to hear it is to ascend to our very own Mount Olympus, to join our beloved pantheon, our chat community, and to join the ranks of the immortals at therestishistory.com.
因为你不只获得永生和那些东西，还获得雷霆之力，以及一系列福利，对吧，汤姆？
Because not only do you get eternal life and all of that, and you get thunderbolts, you get a whole range of benefits, don't you, Tom?
当然有。
You absolutely do.
这简直就是在成为不朽者。
It's it's literally becoming an immortal.
其实更好。
Better, actually.
更好。
It's better.
就像听The Rest Is History
It's like listening to the rest
历史，而且永无止境。
of history, and it never ever ends.
想象一下。
Imagine that.
哇。
Wow.
想象一下。
Imagine that.
极乐世界。
The Elysian Fields.
是的。
Yeah.
好的。
Alright.
太棒了。
Brilliant.
那么，就以这个重磅消息结束，塔拉米·阿古塔拉。
So on that bombshell, Talami Agoutara.
再见。
Goodbye.
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