605. 希腊神话：伊阿宋与金羊毛的追寻（第四部分）

别闹了。

Come on.

不，说的是真的。

No, true.

好吧。

Okay.

全部

All

对。

right.

与此同时，回到伊尔科斯，佩琉斯那里，显然有个预言。

So meanwhile, back in Ielkos, Peleus, there's obviously a prophecy.

我的意思是，总归会有个预言。

I mean, there's always a prophecy.

他被警告要提防一个只穿一只凉鞋的人。

And he's been warned to beware a man with one sandal.

杰森呢，他受基戎的指导，顺利通过了A-Level考试，现在该启程前往伊阿科斯了。

And Jason, he's been instructed by by Chiron, passed his a levels, and so now it's time for him to set off to Aalikos.

他一路上走着，遇到一位老太太。

He's going along, and there's an old woman.

前面有条涨水的河。

There's a swollen river.

老太太过不了河，杰森就背她过去。

The old woman can't get across the river, so Jason gives her a piggyback.

到了对岸，老太太突然化身为赫拉，从这以后，赫拉就成了杰森最重要的庇护者。

At the far side, the old woman transforms into Hera, and this is why Hera from this point on is Jason's the great patron.

但多米尼克，他过河的时候，你觉得他的鞋子怎么了？

But Dominic, while he's been crossing the river, what do you think has happened to his footwear?

哦，他的凉鞋掉了一只，对吧？

Oh, his sandal has come off, hasn't it?

这可是个著名的情节。

Very famous.

是的

Yeah.

他的凉鞋掉了一只。

Sandal has come Yes.

他抵达后，佩琉斯一看见这个新来的人，立刻意识到：糟了，麻烦来了。

So he turns up and Peleus sees this new arrival and realizes, oh my god, his trouble.

于是他想出一个绝妙的主意：告诉杰森，我会把王位让给你。

So he comes up with a brilliant scheme, which is that he tells Jason, look, I will give you the throne.

但在这之前，我建议你先去科尔基斯，把金羊毛带回来。

But first of all, I really think that you should go to Colchis and get the Golden Fleece.

有人可能会问，杰森为什么要这么做呢？

And people may be wondering, that's you know, why would Jason do that?

佩利阿斯给出了三个无可辩驳的理由。

And Pedias comes up with three unanswerable reasons.

第一个理由是，弗里克索斯的亡灵要求他这么做——小男孩说道。

The first of these is that the ghost of Phryxus demands it, said the little boy.

是的。

Yeah.

别跟他争。

Don't argue with him.

第二个原因是神谕已经敦促他这么做。

The second is an oracle has urged it.

对。

Okay.

那确实没法反驳。

So you can't argue with that.

第三个原因是，正如金羊毛给科尔基斯带来了和平与繁荣，如果它被夺走，同样的和平与繁荣也会降临到伊俄尔科斯。

And the third is that just as the Golden Fleece has brought peace and prosperity to Colchis, so if it gets stolen, then that peace and prosperity will be brought to Iolcus.

所以完全无懈可击。

So unanswerable.

杰森说，对。

Jason says, yeah.

行吧。

Fine.

随便吧。

Whatever.

佩琉斯郑重发誓，只要杰森带着金羊毛回来，就把王位让给他——这是品达的说法。

And Peleus swears solemn vow that he will give Jason the throne if he comes back with the Golden Fleece, so to quote Pindar.

于是他们达成了协议，随后就分开了。

So this was their agreement, and then they parted.

杰森立刻下令，派使者到各地宣布将展开一次伟大的远征。

And at once, Jason ordered heralds everywhere to proclaim that a great voyage was to be made.

关于这次远征的事。

And on the question of the the voyage.

我记得迈克尔·伍德拍过一部电视系列片。

So I remember Michael Wood did a TV series.

迈克尔·伍德曾经上过我们的节目，他是位了不起的电视历史学家，节目叫《追寻神话与英雄》。

And Michael Wood has been on our show, great TV historian, called In Search of Myths and Heroes.

他踏上了一段伟大的远征，前往黑海对岸的格鲁吉亚。

And he went on this great sort of expedition to Georgia on the other side of the Black Sea.

他想探寻金羊毛传说的根源，认为这源于希腊人远航探索未知海域的记忆——穿越黑海，前往一个可能盛产黄金或其他财富的土地，谁知道呢。

He was trying to uncover the roots of the Golden Fleece myth, and he was arguing the roots lie in memories of Greek voyages out into the unknown, across the Black Sea, to a land that might maybe had gold or some kinds of riches or or who knows.

历史学家和学者们是不是普遍觉得，伊阿宋和金羊毛的故事确实反映了某种历史现实？也就是，你管这叫什么？希腊的探索时代？

There is a sense, isn't there, among historians and scholars that the story of Jason the Golden Fleece does reflect a kind of historical reality, which is, what would you call it, the Greek age of exploration?

是的。

Yeah.

这其实是一种殖民的冲动。

Sense of Colonization.

没错。

Yeah.

希腊人确实向外扩张，比如他们去了克里米亚，对吧？

Going out I mean, Greeks obviously go to the they go to the Crimea, don't they?

他们确实横跨黑海，到达了对岸的远方。

They do go across the Black Sea to the far side.

这个时期是什么时候？

When is that time period?

因为到像阿波罗尼奥斯这样的人写作的时候，那已经是好几个世纪以前了。

Because that must have been centuries distant by the time that people like well, certainly by the time Apollonia was writing.

八到七个世纪前。

Eight, seven centuries.

没错。

Right.

甚至可以追溯到公元前六世纪。

I mean, into the sixth century.

这其实是一个探索的过程。

And it's about a process of discovery.

他们航行到那些可能真的存在撞岩的海域，你说是吧。

And they are venturing out into seas where you could well believe that you've come across clashing rocks or Yeah.

对

Of

当然。

course.

怪物、塞壬，或者类似的东西。

Monsters or sirens or whatever.

也就是说，无论你是向西还是向东航行。

Well, I So whether you're going westwards or eastwards.

这就有点像维京人驶入大西洋，或者沿着俄罗斯的大河顺流而下的那些传说。

So it's a bit like the, you know, the the the stories told by Vikings sailing off into the Atlantic or down, you know, down the great rivers through Russia.

但问题在于，我觉得卡利马科斯说得有道理——到了二月，人人都知道地中海和黑海是什么样子。

But the problem, and this is, I think, why Callimachus has a point, is that by February, I mean, everybody knows what the Mediterranean and the Black Sea are like.

没人会真的相信那里有怪物。

No one could conceivably believe that there are monsters there.

所以我认为，这正是阿波罗尼奥斯把阿尔戈英雄们派往中欧地区的原因。

And so that, I think, is why Apollonius sends the Argonauts into kind of Middle Middle Europa.

对。

Right.

罗讷河之类的。

The Rhone and whatnot.

是的。

Yeah.

因为那里一般人根本不清楚到底发生了什么。

Because that that that they're generally people don't know what's going on there.

对。

Right.

所以更适合出现怪物。

So more opportunity for monsters.

说到伊阿宋和金羊毛的故事，大家最记得的角色就是美狄亚——那位美丽的女巫，她帮了伊阿宋，但后来他们这对夫妻的关系彻底崩坏了。

So the one character who everybody remembers of Jason the Golden Fleece, the the the hypnotic figure of Medea, the beautiful sorceress who helps Jason, but then obviously things go very, very badly wrong for them as a couple.

她到底是从哪儿来的？

Where does that where does she come from?

她也是来自品达的传说吗？

Does she come from Pindar as well?

是的。

Yes.

品达为阿波罗尼奥斯提供了美狄亚故事的基本框架。

So Pindar provides Apollonius with the outline of her story.

在品达的版本里，美狄亚是个非常英勇的角色，就像电影里那样。

And in Pindar's account, Medea is a very heroic figure, so as in the film, actually.

她的帮助对伊阿宋的成功至关重要。

And her aid is crucial to Jason's success.

如果没有她，伊阿宋根本不可能拿到金羊毛。

He wouldn't have been able to win the Golden Fleece without her.

品达说，阿佛洛狄忒施了法术，让她爱上了伊阿宋。

Aphrodite, Pindar says, you know, cast a spell of love over her.

但在阿利娅的版本里，这简直荒唐可笑。

And in Aaliyah's version, it's ridiculous.

阿佛洛狄忒让她的儿子厄洛斯射出一支箭。

Aphrodite gets gets Eros, her son, to shoot an arrow.

厄洛斯就像那种特别烦人、毛毛躁躁的小角色。

And Eros is like the kind of most annoy like, scrappy doo.

他是个让人抓狂却又装得挺友善的家伙。

He's like a kind of infuriating, friendly Yeah.

这种角色一出场，简直糟透了。

Character introduce oh, it's just terrible.

就像贾贾·宾克斯一样。

Like Jar Jar Binks.

是的。

Yes.

他是希腊史诗里的贾贾·宾克斯。

He's the Jar Jar Binks of Greek epic poetry.

美狄亚的心里被这支爱之箭深深刺入。

And Medea is is she's got this arrow of love embedded in her heart.

这让她最终背叛了父亲，把魔法药膏给了杰森，帮他驯服公牛，也让他信心大增。

It leads her to basically betray her father, give Jason the magic ointment that enables him to, you know, harness the bulls and and and pep up his confidence.

此外，美狄亚还帮他在守护金羊毛的龙身上动了手脚。

And, also, Medea helps him to kill the dragon that's been guarding the Golden Feast.

她又拿出一种药膏，抹在龙的眼睛上，龙很快就睡着了，杰森趁机杀了它。

She has another ointment, puts it in the dragon's eyes, the dragon falls asleep, and Jason then kills it.

在漫长的归途中，她为阿尔戈英雄们提供了魔法和预言指引。

And on the long voyage back, she provides the Argonauts with magic and prophecy.

这基本上就是品达给阿波罗尼奥斯的框架，而阿波罗尼奥斯也基本遵循了这个设定。

That basically is the outline that Pinder gives Apollonius, and Apollonius kind of sticks to it.

不过，阿波罗尼奥斯还得面对另一个更广为人知的美狄亚形象，那是来自欧里庇得斯的版本。

There is another much more famous literary portrayal of Medea that Apollonius had inherited and had to negotiate, and this comes from Euripides.

对。

Yeah.

我们知道欧里庇得斯特别喜欢写黑暗沉重的戏剧。

We know that Euripides loves a really dark play.

而且他尤其钟爱那些杀人如麻的女性角色。

And he loves he loves a murderous woman.

在欧里庇得斯的《美狄亚》里，她被描绘得极其阴暗，犯下了种种罪行。

And in in Euripides' play about Medea, she is portrayed in in a very dark light, and she is guilty of assorted crimes.

backstory 里，当阿尔戈英雄们逃亡时，据一种说法，她带着自己的兄弟一起跑。

So in the backstory, she as the as the Argonauts escape, she's taken her her brother with her in in one account.

当科尔基斯的舰队逼近时，她把兄弟砍成碎块，

As Aitie's fleet is closing in on the Argonauts, she chops her brother up into pieces I

我记得这个情节。

remember that.

然后扔进海里。

Throws it out into the sea.

这个细节真是又怪又让人毛骨悚然。

Such a weird and unsettling detail.

所以科尔基斯人只能停下来打捞那些碎块。

So Aece has to stop to pick up the bits.

另一种说法是，兄弟本来在带队追击，结果被美狄亚杀了。

Or in another account, the brother has been is leading the pursuit and Medea kills him.

他们回到色萨利后，赫利俄斯果然没有交出王位。

When they get back to Thessaly, Helios predictably does not hand over the throne.

于是美狄亚除掉了他，而且手段极其巧妙复杂。

So Medea eliminates him, and she does it in a kind of brilliantly complicated way.

她找来赫利俄斯的女儿们，说：你看。

She gets Helios' daughters, and she says, look.

我拥有强大的巫术力量。

I have incredible powers of of of sorcery.

你父亲年纪太大了。

Your father is very, very elderly.

我可以让他变得年轻许多。

I can make him much younger.

瞧好了。

Look.

她在一个大锅里熬制了一种药水，然后弄来一只老绵羊。

And she brews up a potion in a cauldron, and she gets an aged ram.

她割开了公羊的喉咙，然后把羊剁成一小块一小块的。

And she slits the throat of the ram, and then she chops the ram up into little bits.

很明显，美狄亚特别热衷于肢解尸体。

This is obviously something Medea is really into, is chopping up bodies.

她把所有羊块扔进大锅里，瞬间锅里闪过一道微光。

And she chucks all the portions of the the ram into the cauldron, and there's kind of shimmering in a flash.

过了一分钟，一只小羊羔从锅里跳了出来，浑身焕发出青春的活力。

And then a minute later, the ram pops out, and it's now a baby lamb, kind of had all its youth restored to it.

她说，要是你们对父亲也这么做，我就能让他恢复年轻。

And she says, if you do this to your father, then I'll be able to do the same.

于是，佩勒斯的女儿们把父亲拖来，割喉、剁碎、扔进锅里——结果什么都没发生。

And so Peeles' daughters get their father, slit his throat, chop him into bits, chuck him into the cauldron, and nothing happens.

佩勒斯就这样死了。

And that's the end of Peeles.

这样一来，杰森就能成为阿利亚和塞萨利的国王了。

So Jason then can become king of Aaliyah and and of Thessaly.

你可能会觉得他该对美狄亚心怀感激，但到这时候，杰森已经觉得她简直是个噩梦。

And you'd think that he'd be very grateful to Medea, but by this point, Jason is thinking, you know, she's a bit of a nightmare.

她就是停不下来，动不动就把人剁得稀碎。

She's just, you know, endlessly chopping people up.

在欧里庇得斯的版本里，他果然甩了美狄亚，娶了科林斯的公主格劳刻。

And faithfully, in Euripides version, he dumps Medea for a princess called Glauke, who's the princess of Corinth.

美狄亚当然不会善罢甘休，她送了格劳刻一件毒袍子和一顶毒王冠，格劳刻一穿上，瞬间就化作一缕青烟消失了。

And so Medea doesn't take this lying down and she sends Glauke a poison dress and crown and Glauke puts it on and vanishes in a puff of smoke.

接着美狄亚杀掉了她和杰森生的两个儿子，断了他传宗接代的念想，然后乘着龙车飞往雅典。

And Medea then goes off, kills the two sons that she's had by Jason, thereby denying him, you know, any male heirs and flies off in a chariot drawn by dragons and goes to Athens.

她真是个狠角色，对吧？

She's a piece of work, isn't she?

她是希腊神话里的玛丽·林肯，汤姆。

She's the Mary Lincoln of Greek mythology, Tom.

太狠了。

So harsh.

确实太狠了。

So harsh.

而且呢

And so

希望Reddit上的网友们喜欢这个版本。

I hope the people on the Reddit enjoy that one.

接着说。

Continue.

欧里庇得斯的影响实在太深远了。

Basically, Euripides' influence is so strong.

到这个时候，他已经成了经典，人们都把他的版本当成标准了，但这并不符合阿波罗尼奥斯的意图。

He's become such a kind of classic by this point that this is now the canonical understanding of Medea, but it doesn't really suit Apollonius' purposes.

我的意思是，太血腥了，太残暴了。

I mean, it's it's too too bloodstained, too murderous.

对。

Yeah.

所以他基本上把这一点淡化了。

And so essentially, he kind of slightly whitewashes that out.

这简直就是好莱坞的做法。

I mean, that is so Hollywood.

你知道的。

You know?

我们想把

Oh, we wanna take

这就像是那种……

it It's like it's like the yeah.

就像亚当·韦斯特版的蝙蝠侠。

It's like the the Adam West Batman.

听好了。

Listen.

你知道，所有那些黑暗风格的

You know, all the dark night stuff

我先说吧，免得听众们先开口。

is I'm just gonna say it first before the before the listeners do.

这一集里头，好多牵强附会的类比。

There's a lot of ludicrous parallels being made in this episode.

不对。

No.

我觉得其实没那么夸张。

I think it's not.

我们就是故意往这方向走的。

We lean into it.

我们特别喜欢这样。

We love it.

欧里庇得斯、索福克勒斯、埃斯库罗斯这些伟大的悲剧作家，早就成了经典，后世的诗人都被他们盖过了。

Euripides, Sophocles, Aeschylus, the Great tragedians, they have become classics, and they have put later poets in their shadow.

而阿波罗尼奥斯呢，他也有那种影响的焦虑。

And Apollonius, you know, has this anxiety of influence.

他始终对此心知肚明。

He's always conscious of it.

这正是卡利马科斯想表达的：你不可能写出关于美狄亚的新鲜故事了，因为欧里庇得斯塑造的形象已经根深蒂固，你无论如何都逃不开它的影响。

And that is really Callimachus' point is that you can't write something fresh about Medea because we have these you know, the Euripides portrait means that you're always gonna be operating in its shadow.

阿波罗尼奥斯能做的，基本上就是无视它，把它放在一边。

And the only thing that Apollonians can do basically is to ignore that, set it aside.

没错。

Yeah.

我觉得这里有个类似的状况——比如在二月，诗人们活在一种早已消逝的文学辉煌的阴影之下。

There's a kind of parallel, I think, in which the way that poets in, say, you know, February are in the shadow of a vanished greatness, literary greatness.

从政治上讲，雅典的情况也差不多，因为在二月，雅典正处在比五世纪时强大得多的帝国阴影之中。

Politically, Athens is slightly similar because Athens now in February stands in the shadows of empires that are vastly greater than the empire that the Athenians had run-in the fifth century.

雅典以及所有其他希腊城邦的独立，实际上已经被彻底抹杀了。

And the independence of Athens and of all the other Greek city states has effectively been snuffed out.

多米尼克，你知道的，是谁干的。

And Dominic, I mean, you know, you know by whom.

是的。

Yeah.

没人比我对这个更着迷了。

No one loves this more than I do.

我特别喜欢看到雅典人被马其顿收拾一顿。

I love I love to see the Athenians get a kicking from Macedon.

腓力二世不是在三月先挑起事端的吗？

So Philip of Macedon started it, didn't he, in March?

他把雅典人和底比斯人打得落花流水。

He smashed the Athenians and the Thebans.

四年之后，亚历山大大帝——他后来成了历史上最顶尖的人物之一。

And then four years later, Alexander the Great, one of the very top friends of the rest of his history.

他原本只是去度个假，结果一发不可收拾。

He'd gone off on his on his think what we described as a gap year that got out of control.

他征服了波斯帝国，一路打到阿富汗，还穿上了

Conquering the Persian Empire, going off to Afghanistan, dressing

穿着他那身异国服饰。

up in his foreign clothing.

没错，完全正确。

Exactly, exactly.

他穿上波斯服装，采纳波斯习俗，远征中亚，进军印度，最后在公元前323年去世，帝国被瓜分。

Taking prost kinesis, adopting Persian customs, goes off to Central Asia, goes off to India, and then he dies in 03/23, and his empire is carved up.

之后总是分裂成这些可怜的小继业者国家。

And it's always sort of fragmented into these pitiful little successor states.

但实际上，这些继业者国家实力雄厚、极其富裕，比如塞琉古帝国、托勒密帝国，而在我看来，最吸引人的——也是人们常说‘如果能穿越时空，你最想去哪儿？’的地方——

But actually, those successor states are pretty powerful and rich empires, the Senukid Empire, the Ptolemaic Empire, and I guess the most glamorous, certainly for me, and it's the place when people say, where would you go if you had a time machine?

这可是历史爱好者们经典的问题。

You know, classic rest is history club question.

亚历山大里亚。

Alexandria.

在那个时代，真正的大都市是亚历山大里亚，而不是雅典，对吧？

It's Alexandria rather than Athens that is the real metropolis in this period, isn't it?

那是一座充满文化与科学气息的城市。

The sort of the city of culture, of science.

那是一座超级大都市。

It's a mega city.

没错。

Yeah.

确实如此。

Yeah.

这座城市显然是亚历山大建立的，以他的名字命名——当然，这很符合他一贯的谦逊风格。

Obviously, it's founded by Alexander, named after him with Alexander's customary modesty.

和雅典或底比斯那种有着古老起源、与神祇英雄渊源深厚的城市不同，亚历山大城建址之前，那里什么都没有。

And the thing about Alexandria, as opposed to Athens or Thebes with their kind of ancient stories about their their beginnings and their ancient relations with the gods and heroes, is that on the site of Alexandria, before Alexandria arrived there, had there had been nothing.

那里只是一片沼泽地，还有些海鸟。

There was only kind of marshes and and seabirds.

那里有一些零星的遗迹。

There's some pieces articles.

北非。

North Africa.

对。

Yeah.

没有神庙，没有节日，最关键的是，没有神话。

No temples, no festivals, and crucially, no myths.

于是就出现了一个很自然的问题。

And so then that there's an obvious question.

在一个所有人都来自外地的城市里，古老的神明意味着什么？

What do the ancient gods mean in a city where everyone is an immigrant?

这些古老的希腊诗歌现在还有什么意义？

What relevance do these ancient Greek poems now have?

我觉得，卡利马科斯和阿波罗尼奥斯之间的争论，说的就是这个。

And I think that that's what the argument between Callimachus and Apollonius is all about.

他们俩都不是来自古希腊。

Neither of them come from Greece, Old Greece.

卡利马科斯从昔兰尼搬来，那地方现在属于利比亚。

Callimachus had moved there from Cyrene, which is a city in what's now Libya.

阿波罗尼奥斯本人，虽然叫‘罗得岛的阿波罗尼奥斯’，其实出生在亚历山大，只是因为他常去罗得岛游玩，才得了这个名号。

And Apollonius himself, despite his name, Apollonius of Rhodes, seems actually to have been born in Alexandria, and he was called off Rhodes because he liked visiting there.

亚历山大算得上一个真正的文化母体吗？

Can Alexandria be a place?

在这种城市里，神话还能起什么作用？

What role does myth have in such a city?

你明白吧？

You know?

而且呢，就是

And and

所以我觉得，卡利马科斯对阿波罗尼奥斯的批评其实很明确，也并非没道理——如果你要写一部古典史诗，却又生活在亚历山大这种大熔炉城市，那你的作品很难不显得俗气、浮夸。

I I think that Callimachus' charge against Apollonius, therefore, is very clear and not unjustified, which is that if you're going to write an ancient epic and you are doing so as a citizen of a Parvanu mega city like Alexandria, then you can't help but be kind of vulgar and meretricious.

这有点像英国精英阶层对美国电影的那种高高在上的态度。

I suppose it's slightly, again, like, you know, high brow British attitudes towards American films.

没错。

Right.

正是如此。

Exactly.

但有趣的是，这其实也反映了长期以来历史学家对希腊化时代的批评，不是吗？

But it's also interestingly, it mirrors the criticism that historians for a long time have actually made of the Hellenistic era, haven't they?

从十九世纪开始，历史学家和评论家一直把古希腊的古典时期当作典范，然后说，接下来的时代变得庸俗、浮夸，还像拼凑出来的一样。

Historians and and critics, really since the nineteenth century, have been holding up Greece, the classical age of Greece as the model, have then said, oh, and what came next was vulgar and meretricious and and a bit of a pastiche.

是的。

Yeah.

这确实是关于希腊化文化最经典的批评。

And, I mean, that's the that's the classic criticism of Hellenistic culture.

但我要再强调一下，Callimachus 所提出的批评，正是他在预判这一点。

But just to reiterate, I mean, that is the criticism that Callimachus is making, who is probably the greatest He's

他早就在预料到了。

anticipating it.

是的

Yeah.

卡利马科斯将目光投向雅典和荷马，认为那是希腊文学真正的黄金时代。

Callimachus is looking back to to to Athens and to Homer as the true golden age of Greek literature.

是的

Yeah.

而我们大多数人也差不多都是这么看的。

And and, you know, we do the same by and large.

是的

Yeah.

这几乎成了大家默认的假设。

That that tends to be the assumption.

我其实特别喜欢希腊化时代。

I actually love the Hellenistic era.

我更喜欢

I prefer

嗯，我

Well, I

我特别喜欢

I love I love

我也喜欢希腊化时代，但我能理解卡利马科斯的观点

the Hellenistic era too, but I can recognize that there is a point to Callimachus'

没错。

Great.

他的批评是有道理的，确实

Criticism that Yeah.

有点像是仿制品。

It is slightly ersatz.

这是因为你

The It's because you

你不像我这样喜欢多元文化。

don't like multiculturalism like I do.

不，多米尼克。

No, Dominic.

试图写一部关于一个众所周知存在的角落、并称那里满是怪物的史诗，本身就带有一种根本性的虚假感。

It's there is an Ursatz quality to trying to write an epic about a corner of the world that everyone knows is there and saying that it's full of monsters.

但为阿波罗尼奥斯辩护的话，他显然认为自己所做的是完全正当的，不然他根本不会写这部史诗。

But to stick up for Apollonius, Apollonius obviously thinks that it's entirely legitimate what he's doing because otherwise, he wouldn't write his epic.

当然。

Of course.

他还觉得卡利马科斯是个傻瓜，就像你一样。

And he thinks that Callimachus is the idiot, so like you.

他写过一首诗，结构就像百科全书里的一个条目。

And he wrote he wrote this one line poem, which is kind of structured like an entry in an encyclopedia.

明白。

Mhmm.

他把卡利马科斯贬得一文不值，说他是垃圾、廉价的笑话、一个蠢货。

And he sums up Callimachus as trash, a cheap joke, a blockhead.

我特别喜欢阿波罗尼奥斯。

I love Apollonius.

我觉得他简直太有才了。

I think he sounds brilliant.

这正是我会去做的事。

It's exactly what I would do.

我觉得他为《阿尔戈英雄纪》辩护，不会只是说它是一部让人欲罢不能的精彩小说。

And I think that his defense of the Argonautica wouldn't just have been that it's, you know, a thrilling page turner.

一部让人欲罢不能的小说有什么不好？

What's wrong with a thrilling page turner?

你知道的，那种书确实不错。

You know, they're Yeah.

但他还会说，他在这部作品里做了更多更重要的事。

But also, he would say he's doing something much more with it.

具体来说，他会认为自己是在把神话——那些关于神祇与英雄的伟大传说——重新融入亚历山大继业者的时代，一个拥有全球视野、君主自诩为神、人口密集的大都市前所未见的时代，而这种景象，连索福克勒斯，更别说荷马写作时都从未见过。

And specifically, what he is doing, he would say, I think, is that he is adapting myth, you know, this great inheritance of the stories of the gods and the heroes to the age of Alexander's successors, which is an age of of global horizons, of kings who claim to be gods and of teeming mega cities that had not existed when, you know, Sophocles, let alone Homer, was writing their masterpieces.

好吧。

Alright.

我们休息一下吧，汤姆。

Well, let's take a break, Tom.

广告结束后回来，我们聊聊亚历山大以及他对所谓希腊神话的影响。

And then when we come back after the break, let's look and talk about Alexander and his influence on what we've come to call Greek mythology.

看看亚历山大征服之后，希腊故事体系和希腊人对超自然的理解发生了什么变化。

Let's look at what happens to this corpus of Greek stories and the way the Greeks understand the supernatural in the wake of Alexander's conquests.

本集由优步赞助。

This episode is brought to you by Uber.

你有没有过那种感觉——在你最需要的时候，有人及时出现了？

Now do you know that feeling when someone shows up for you when you need it most?

我们每个人偶尔都需要这样的时刻，而优步懂这一点。

We all need that sometimes, and Uber knows it.

优步不只是帮你叫车或送餐。

Uber isn't just a ride or a meal delivered.

不管怎样，它都会在你身边。

It's showing up no matter what.

比如远在他乡的朋友生病了，给你送汤；心情低落时，给你寄花。

Like for your long distance friends, bringing soup when they're sick, sending flowers when they're down.

真正重要的时候，不管什么事，你都会出现。

When it really matters, whatever it is, you show up.

只要有

Where there's a

决心，我们就会出发。

will, we're on our way.

Uber，随时待命。

Uber, on our way.

今天就下载应用吧。

Download the app today.

大家好。

Hello, everybody.

我们有个超级棒、惊人至极、绝妙无比的消息要宣布——即将有一场《Rest is History》的现场活动。

We have absolutely sensational, spectacular, stupendous news about a forthcoming Rest is History live show.

没错，多米尼克。

We do, Dominic.

有时候有人抱怨，英国人对大英帝国的了解太少了，学校里也没怎么深入讲过。

Now sometimes there are complaints that people in Britain don't know enough about the British Empire that they don't study it in sufficient depth.

所以我们决定来补上这一课，我们要讲一个维多利亚时代最疯狂的帝国远征故事。

So we are stepping in to make up for that, and we we are going to be telling the story of the ultimate Victorian imperial adventure.

这个故事，多米尼克，就是1868年的阿比西尼亚远征。

And that, Dominic, is the Abyssinian expedition of eighteen sixty eight.

说实话，我不会说它有多精彩，但简直疯狂，对吧？

And it's well, I don't say it's brilliant, but it's mad, isn't it?

确实疯狂。

It is mad.

为了让大家有个概念，这真是个不可思议的故事。

To give people a bit of context, it's an amazing story.

阿比西尼亚皇帝特沃德罗斯二世给维多利亚女王写信，结果被完全无视了。

The emperor of Abyssinia to Wadros the second, he was ignored by queen Victoria who didn't answer his letters.

于是他抓了几个英国人当人质，英国就派远征军去阿比西尼亚，攻打他的山巅堡垒——马格达拉。

So he took some British hostages, and then the British sent an expedition to Abyssinia to attack his capital at Magdala, his kind of mountain Citadel.

这真是个不可思议、疯狂至极的故事，正合《Rest is History》的口味。

It's an amazing, amazing story, a bonkers story, and precisely the kind of thing that we enjoy on The Rest is History.

没错。

Yes.

我觉得整个国家都该听听这段历史。

And that I think the entire country could profit from hearing about.

这正是我们接下来要讲的内容。

So that is what we're gonna be doing.

我觉得吧，

It is, I think,

这简直就像弗拉什曼小说里的情节。

a very flashman kind of a story.

没错。

Totally.

喜欢《弗拉什曼》的人一定会喜欢这个故事。

So anyone who enjoys flashman will enjoy this.

我们将在9月4日于伦敦南岸中心举办这场活动。

And we are going to be doing it at the South Bank Centre in London on the September 4.

那场活动还剩少量票。

We do have a few tickets for that.

我们9月5日也有一场，不过不是在巴兹，而且那场已经售罄了。

We're also doing it on the September 5, not to base, but that one is already sold out.

如果你想来，赶紧订9月4日的票吧，网址是restishistory.com。

So if you want to come, book your tickets for the September 4, and you can get them at the restishistory.com.

欢迎回到《历史其余部分》。

Welcome back to the rest is history.

之前我们答应过你们，要讲亚历山大大帝的故事。

Now we promised you Alexander the Great.

亚历山大大帝当然以痴迷希腊神话和传说而闻名。

Alexander the Great, of course, was famously devoted to the stories of Greek myth and legend.

有个说法，他出行时随身带着一部《伊利亚特》。

So there's a story, isn't there, that he travels with a copy of the Iliad.

他把一本非常精美的《伊利亚特》精装版放在枕头底下。

That's a sort of very fancy folio society edition of the Iliad that he puts under his pillow.

他显然非常敬畏神明，比如当他渡过赫勒斯滂海峡时，就为十二位奥林匹斯神建了一座祭坛。

And he clearly is a very God fearing or Gods fearing man, because when he crosses the Hellespont, for example, he builds an altar to the 12 Olympians.

他尤其崇拜阿喀琉斯。

And he is obsessed particularly with Achilles.

他把自己和朋友赫菲斯提昂看作是现代版的阿喀琉斯和帕特罗克洛斯。

I mean, he thinks of himself and his friend Hephaestion as the modern day Achilles and Patroclus.

他对这些事可是当真的，对吧，汤姆？

And he takes all this incredibly seriously, doesn't he, Tom?

没错。

He does.

他渐渐真的相信自己是宙斯的儿子。

He he comes to think that he's literally the son of Zeus.

没错。

Yeah.

他去了塞瓦神谕所。

He goes to the Oracle Of Sewa.

是的。

Yeah.

当他抵达如今的阿富汗地区时，发现周围到处都是狄俄尼索斯的痕迹——传说这位神祇早在很多个世纪前就曾到访过这里。

When he reaches what's now Afghanistan, he he he sees traces all around him of Dionysus, who was supposed to have traveled there many, many centuries before.

他看到一些被常春藤覆盖的石堆，而常春藤正是狄俄尼索斯的圣物，于是亚历山大认定，这些是神明当年立下的界碑。

So he sees kind of stone burial heaps that are covered with ivy, and and ivy was sacred to Dionysus, and so Alexander assumes that these were boundary stones that have been set up by the god.

亚历山大的志向是要超越狄俄尼索斯的足迹。

Alexander's ambition is to go even further than than Dionysus.

正如公元二世纪的罗马历史学家阿里安所记述的那样，亚历山大深信，他的士兵们会追随他，效仿狄俄尼索斯的壮举。

So to to quote Ariane, the Roman historian, writing in the second century AD, he confidently expected his troops would join him in this, done as it would be in imitation of Dionysus' achievements.

但是，多米尼克，这种情况并没有发生，对吧？

But, Dominic, that doesn't happen, does it?

没有。

No.

他从未被敌人打败，却是被自己的士兵逼退的。

So he's never defeated, but he's defeated by his own men.

在印度的海法西斯河畔。

In India on the River Hyphasis.

他们在公元前326年3月26日逼他撤军。

They force him to turn back in 03/26.

他再次为众神建造了一座祭坛。

Yet again, he built an altar to the gods.

亚历山大特别喜欢做两件事。

Alexander, he loves doing two things.

一是建城市，都叫亚历山大里亚；二是建祭坛。

Basically, cities called Alexandria, building altars.

然后他回到巴比伦，三年后死在了那里，可能是疟疾，也可能是中毒。

Then he goes back to Babylon, and three years later, he's dead in Babylon, probably in malaria, possibly a poison.

我们没法确定。

We can't be sure.

你觉得呢，汤姆？

Or is he, Tom?

他真的死了吗？

Is he dead?

亚历山大明显想被人当成神来崇拜，但雅典人对此嗤之以鼻。

So Alexander is obviously angling to be worshipped as a god, and this is a conceit that is treated with absolute contempt by, say, the Athenians.

他们觉得这是疯狂的自大狂表现。

I mean, they see this as a example of insane megalomania.

但有意思的是，雅典人没过多久就亲自把亚历山大的一位继任者奉为神明了。

But the thing is, it doesn't actually take long for the Athenians to hail one of Alexander's successors in person as a god.

亚历山大死后没几年，就在二月，出现了一位马其顿军阀，叫围城者德米特里乌斯——我一直觉得这外号起得真绝。

So not long after Alexander's death, only a few decades in February, you have this Macedonian strongman called Demetrius the besieger, which I always thought was a brilliant subeque.

是的。

Yeah.

是波利克提斯，对吧？

Polyakties, isn't it?

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

他来到雅典并占领了这座城市，在酒神剧场发表演讲——那里原本是上演悲剧的地方。

And he comes to Athens and occupies it and he addresses the Athenians in the Theater Of Dionysus where the tragedies have been staged.

他现身时，就像一位英雄，甚至像是神明降临，仿佛是戏剧中的天降救星。

And he appears there as though he is, you know, a hero or maybe even a god, kind of deus ex machina appearing there.

四年之后，他再次回到雅典，人们公开迎接他，把他当作酒神狄俄尼索斯，就像节日庆典中神明重现一般。

And four years later, he comes back to Athens and is overtly greeted as though he were Dionysus, as though, you know, he has appeared, as though it's the Anthisteria.

他进入雅典时，有舞者举着巨大的阳具雕像随行。

And he's accompanied into Athens by dancers carrying giant phalluses.

雅典人用一首诗来欢呼他。

And the Athenians hail him with this this kind of poem.

其他的神明遥不可及，或者听不见，或者根本不存在，对咱们置之不理，但您却实实在在地站在我们面前。

The other gods are far distant or have no ears or do not exist or ignore us, but you we can see before us.

您不是石头或木头做的。

You are not made of stone or wood.

没错。

No.

您是真实的。

You are real.

他们称德米特里为救世主，还允许他和情妇住在帕特农神庙后屋，就是卫城上那座献给雅典娜的伟大神庙里。

And they hail Demetrius as soter, as savior, and they allow him to live with his mistress in a back room of the Parthenon up on the Acropolis, the the great temple to Athena on on the Acropolis.

德米特里本人倒很谦虚，开始称雅典娜为自己的妹妹。

And Demetrius very modestly begins to refer to Athena as his sister.

这可不只是他个人的自负。

And that's just that's just not his own ego.

对吧？

Right?

因为这在希腊化世界正成为一种趋势，我想很多这种做法其实源自埃及，来自托勒密王朝——他们被当作神来崇拜。

Because this is becoming a trend across the Hellenistic world, and I'm wondering, a lot of this must come from Egypt, from the Ptolemies, who are being worshipped as gods.

而且，托勒密一世确实自称为‘救主’，对吧？

And actually, Ptolemy I calls himself soter, doesn't he, the savior?

所以，你会说，在整个希腊化时代，君主们逐渐开始把自己等同于神明，这成了一种潮流？

So this is becoming a trend for kings, would you say, across the Hellenistic era, to identify identify themselves as the gods?

我觉得你说得对，这确实是某种文化氛围的一部分，但我也觉得，这反映出人们感到奥林匹斯众神在他们最需要的时候缺席了，那些曾经让雅典得到神明眷顾的旧仪式和崇拜，已经不再灵验了。

And I think you're right that it's part of a kind of cultural soup, but I think it's also reflecting a sense that the Olympians are not there for people in their kind of hour of need, that the old rituals and cults that had seemed to keep Athens in the favor of the gods are no longer functioning.

与此相应的是，知识分子中对奥林匹斯众神的怀疑情绪正在日益增长，彻底的怀疑。

The corollary of this in turn is a kind of growing public skepticism among intellectuals about the Olympians, full stop.

在这一时期，有一本书特别畅销，你听完它的内容就会明白为什么了。

So there is one book in particular that becomes an absolute bestseller in exactly this period, and you can see why when I tell you what it seem is.

这本书是一位叫欧赫迈罗斯的哲学家写的，他提出了一个非常新颖的解释，来说明那些古代神话的由来。

It's written by a philosopher called Euhemerus, and he comes up with a kind of very novel explanation for the ancient myths.

他简直就是古代版的格雷厄姆·汉考克。

He's kind of Graham Hancock of the ancient world.

他写了一本叫《圣录》的书，书中声称自己曾受一位马其顿统治者派遣，前往印度洋上的一个岛屿执行外交任务。

And he wrote this book is called The Sacred Register, and in it, Euhemerus claims that he'd been sent on a diplomatic mission by one of the Macedonians to an island in the Indian Ocean.

在那里，他发现了一块用象形文字刻写的铭文，那就是所谓的《圣录》。

And there he had found an inscription written in hieroglyphics, and this is the sacred register.

所以这完全是格雷厄姆·汉考克的风格。

So it's very Graham Hancock.

而《圣录》揭示了一个惊人的真相：宙斯根本不是神。

And the sacred register reveals a bombshell truth, which is that Zeus hadn't been a god at all.

他其实是一位克里特岛的凡人国王，死后被人奉为神明，其他所有奥林匹斯神也是如此——他们原本都是凡人，后来才被抬上了神坛。

He'd been a mortal king of Crete who after his death had come to be worshiped as a god and that this was true of all the other Olympians They'd as all they were all being mortals, and they'd been raised up to the heavens.

这个观点如此流行，说明到了公元前3世纪，哲学类著作已经有了庞大的读者市场，不再只是像过去那样，仅限于少数人的学术爱好。

And the popularity of this thesis suggests just how large a market there has come to be by the third century BC for works of philosophy, that it's no longer the kind of research habit that had been Yeah.

在柏拉图的时代，情况可不是这样。

Under Plato.

它正逐渐成为主流的一部分。

It's becoming kind of becoming part of the mainstream.

其实，回到上一期，我们谈到哲学家们起初是把自己定位在诗人和故事讲述者的对立面，他们一开始都在城外的学园里，但几个世纪以来，他们的思想显然已经深深渗透了。

Actually, to go back to the last episode, when we were talking about philosophers establishing themselves in opposition to poets and storytellers, initially they were out there in their academy outside the city, but their ideas have clearly percolated more deeply over the centuries.

那么，在希腊化时代，如果你是个有自尊的学者，这样说会不会太过夸张？

And now, would it be an exaggeration to say that by and large, now, in the Hellenistic era, if you are a self respecting intellectual?

换句话说，如果你是那种常在亚历山大港的缪斯神庙里出没的人，你对奥林匹斯众神的故事都会持怀疑态度，你会说：得了吧，这明显是胡扯。

In other words, if you're the kind of person who's hanging around at the Museon in Alexandria, you are sceptical about the stories of the Olympians, and you say, come on, this stuff is obviously rubbish.

对。

Yeah.

没人会长着动物的脑袋，把自己变成老鹰，然后去和女人睡觉。

There aren't people with the heads of this and turning themselves into eagles and sleeping with women.

这明显是胡说八道。

That's obviously rubbish.

没错。

Yes.

我觉得是这样。

I think it is.

而且说真的，任何比较都有它的局限性。

And again, I mean, it's like, you know, all comparisons have their problems.

但或许可以这么说，大多数知识分子会感到尴尬，不敢说自己相信神变成婴儿、由处女所生这类说法。

But perhaps there's a slight element of the way in which most intellectuals would be embarrassed to say that they believe that God became a baby and was born from a virgin, that kind of thing.

对。

Yep.

对。

Yep.

对。

Yep.

对。

Yep.

这就像今天知识分子对制度性基督教的排斥一样，希腊化时代知识分子对奥林匹斯诸神故事的拒绝，也常被看作是理性战胜迷信、自我反思战胜盲目信仰的胜利。

And a bit like with the the rejection of institutional Christianity today by intellectuals, the the rejection of the the stories told of the Olympian gods by intellectuals in the Hellenistic world is often cast as a kind of triumph of reason over superstition and of, you know, self examination over blind faith.

但这种说法本身也是一个神话，因为如今那些自以为已经摆脱了过去迷信的知识分子，其实只是在传播新的迷信形式。

But this itself is a myth because just as intellectuals today who think that they have rejected, you know, the superstitions of the past actually are merely propagating new forms of that superstition.

对。

Mhmm.

你可以看到，在希腊化时代，哲学家们所批判的那些所谓迷信，反而催生了他们自己的新迷信。

So you can see in the Hellenistic world, the rejection of what philosophers come to cast as superstition breeds its own superstitions.

明白了。

Okay.

挺有意思的。

Interesting.

所以我和我

So I I and I

我认为，希腊化时代发生的情况是，原本适用于小城邦社会的超自然观念，现在被调整以适应一个拥有巨型城市的全球化世界。

would say that what is happening in the Hellenistic world is that kind of notions of the supernatural that had been appropriate to a world of small city states is now being adapted to a kind of vast globalized one with mega cities.

没错。

Right.

说到这个在实际中的经典例子，有个叫伊壁鸠鲁的人，他是雅典移民在萨摩斯岛的后代。

The classic example of what this meant in practice, a guy called Epicurus, who is the son of Athenian settlers on Samos.

亚历山大渡过赫勒斯滂海峡时，他还只是个孩子，后来他到了雅典，传授一种非常原子论的宇宙观。

He'd been a boy back when Alexander had crossed the Hellespont, and he ends up in Athens where he teaches a vision of the universe that is very atomistic.

他认为，万物都是由原子构成的。

He teaches that that everything is made up of atoms.

后来，他成了启蒙时代革新者和怀疑论者心中的伟大偶像。

In due course, this will make him a great hero of rethinkers and skeptics in the enlightenment.

但伊壁鸠鲁绝对不是无神论者，更不是什么理性主义者。

But Epicurus is absolutely not an atheist, and he, you know, is still less a kind of rationalist.

他确实相信神的存在。

He did believe in gods.

只不过他信的神不干预人间事务，也不掌控世界的命运。

It's just that the the gods he believed in were gods who didn't intervene in human affairs and did not control the destiny of the world.

他对自然世界的兴趣——比如这些关于原子的讨论——并不是因为他是个早期的科学家。

And his interest in the natural world, so all this kind of stuff about atoms and things, You know, it's not because he's some kind of protoscientist.

这完全不是伊壁鸠鲁的本意。

That is absolutely not what Epicurus is about.

直到今天，还有些理性主义者说：哦，伊壁鸠鲁真了不起。

To this day, there are rationalists who say, oh, Epicurus, he's brilliant.

他是个早期的科学家。

You know, he's a kind of protoscientist.

恰恰相反，他不是那样的人。

He he's the opposite.

伊壁鸠鲁研究自然的唯一目的，是为了看清迷信有多荒谬。

The only reason Epicurus has for researching the nature of things is is to appreciate the pointlessness of believing in myths.

而这么做，最终能让人达到一种宁静的状态，希腊语叫‘阿塔拉西亚’，在他看来，这才是人生的终极目标。

And this is because in turn, it will lead to the state of tranquility, ataraxia in Greek, that Epicurus sees as being the ultimate goal of existence.

所以，他实际上是在说：觉醒吧，融入其中，然后抽身退出。

So effectively, what he's doing is saying turn on, tune in, drop out.

这是对古典雅典基本假设的彻底否定，也因此，人们对伊壁鸠鲁充满敌意。

It's a completely radical rejection of the assumptions of classical Athens, and that's why, you know, there's a lot of hostility towards Epicurus.

但他并不是在说，你得出去搞核物理之类的发明。

But it's not like he's saying, go out and become a, you know, invent nuclear physics or something like that.

他其实更接近于，怎么说呢，不是理查德·道金斯那种人。

He's basically, I mean, basically, he's less Richard Dawkins.

他更像是马哈里希那种风格。

He's much more than Maharishi.

没错。

Right.

他主张别去管那些繁琐的仪式和死板规矩。

He's somebody who says, sort of, ignore all the silly rituals and stuff of the stuffy squares.

他就像上世纪六十年代那些出家当和尚的人。

What we need He's like the kind of person who drops out to become a Buddhist in the 1960s.

差不多就是这个意思。

That basically Yeah.

也就是说

What it

佛教是一种高贵的古老传统。

Buddhism is a kind of noble ancient tradition.

伊壁鸠鲁身上有一种明显的江湖骗子味道。

There's a strong element of the charlatan about Epicurus.

哦，所以他就像那种谈论新时代水晶之类的人。

Oh, so he's an he's like a somebody talking about new age crystals, that kind of thing.

他可比那要深奥得多。

He's a profounder philosopher than that.

直到今天，还有伊壁鸠鲁学派的人会反感这种说法。

I mean, are Epicurans to this day who will not like that characterization.

你懂的。

You know?

现在赫库兰尼姆出土的那些纸莎草卷轴，几乎全是伊壁鸠鲁学派的文献，这有点让人无奈。

So all the all the the papyri scrolls in Herculaneum that are starting to be deciphered now are by Epicureans, which is slightly frustrating.

但伊壁鸠鲁本人，确实有那么点‘灵性导师’的气质。

But Epicurus himself, I mean, there are definite qualities of, you know, the guru.

于是他在雅典建立了一个实际上的公社，由他那些富有的仰慕者提供资金。

So he sets up effectively a commune in Athens, which is funded by his wealthy admirers.

伊壁鸠鲁根本不愿意让他的追随者独立思考。

Epicurus is not remotely in favor of allowing his followers to think for themselves.

他的准则始终是：做事时要像伊壁鸠鲁正在看着你一样。

So his dictum is always act always as though Epicurus is watching.

他就像个老大哥一样。

He's a kind of big brother.

没错。

Right.

在他生前，他的追随者都称他为领袖。

And his admirers, while he's alive, call him the leader.

他去世后，他们就尊称他为救世主。

And then when he dies, they call him Sota, savior.

天哪。

Oh god.

所以他确实像个邪教领袖。

So he really is like a cult leader.

你知道，那是个人们渴望救世主的时代。

You know, this is an age where people are looking for a savior.

他去世后，考虑到伊壁鸠鲁明明彻底否定了干预人间的神明，可他本人却被后人当成一个干预人间的神来纪念。

And when he dies I mean, considering that Epicurus had absolutely rejected the notion of interventionist gods, I mean, Epicurus is he's he's remembered very much like an interventionist god.

他生前甚至把自己的身体当作神圣之物来对待。

So he he while he was alive, he preferred to his body as being something holy.

他还要求追随者向他献上初熟的果实。

He demanded the first fruits from his followers.

也就是丰收时最先收获的那些，这本来是献给奥林匹斯众神的祭品。

So that's, you know, the first fruits of the harvest, which is conventionally what you pay to the Olympian gods.

他去世后，追随者们还会举办纪念宴会。

And then after his death, they hold commemorative feasts.

回头来看，这简直是在复刻对奥林匹斯众神的崇拜。

He's kind of, you know, it's looking back to the Olympian gods.

这其实是在预示基督徒纪念基督的方式。

It's looking forward to the kind of the way that Christians will commemorate Christ.

我认为可以说，伊壁鸠鲁根本不是理性启蒙的化身。

Epicurus is not an embodiment of enlightened rationalism, I think it's fair to say.

还有切斯特顿那句著名的话，你可以稍作调整：当希腊人不再相信奥林匹斯诸神时，他们并不是什么都不信。

And, you know, there's that famous comment Chesterton makes that you and you can adapt it, that when the Greeks choose not to believe in the Olympians, it's not that they don't believe in, you know, they don't believe in nothing.

他们反而变得什么都能相信。

They become capable of believing in anything, basically.

所以回到伊阿宋和阿尔戈英雄的故事，这反映的是一个思想剧烈动荡的时代——旧有的制度、仪式和假设逐渐失去对人们的控制，人们开始更随意地挑选和组合信仰，就像20世纪70年代的美国那样。

So to go back to Jason the Argonauts, so what that's reflecting, therefore, is an age where there's a genuine kind of a massive flux of ideas, where the old institutions, the old rituals and assumptions have lost some of their power over people, and people are picking and choosing much more, as they will do in 1970s America or something.

他们正在寻找。

They're questing.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Exactly.

在寻找意义。

Searching for meaning.

没错。

Yes.

正是如此。

Exactly.

所以，躲在花园里避世，也是一种选择。

So kind of hanging out in the garden and dropping out is is one option.

另一种选择在欧赫迈罗斯的书里也有明显暗示，毕竟他也不是无神论者。

There's another option which is hinted at quite strongly in Euhemeris' book because Euhemeris I mean, he's not an atheist either.

他认为奥林匹斯众神原本是凡人，但他确实相信有神存在，只是觉得这些神就是行星。

He thinks that the Olympians were originally mortals, but he does think that there are gods, but he thinks that the gods are planets.

这显然也受到埃及和巴比伦传统的影响。

And this is another thing that is obviously influenced by Egyptian, Babylonian traditions.

你知道，埃及的希腊国王，还有塞琉古王朝的人，都能接触到这些极其古老的天文和占星传统。

You know, the Greek kings of of Egypt and of, you know, the Seleucids, they have access to this kind of very, very ancient astronomical, astrological inheritance.

所以对希腊的知识分子来说，这种方式让奥林匹斯众神以另一种形式回来了——行星被逐渐对应上了希腊诸神。

And so this is a way in which the Olympians actually kind of make a a return for Greek intellectuals is that the planets come to be identified with the Greek gods.

运行最快的行星被称为赫尔墨斯，众神的信使，罗马人叫它墨丘利，直到今天我们也这么叫。

So the swiftest planet is the planet that comes to be called Hermes, the messenger of the gods, and the Romans call Mercury, and we still call it Mercury to this day.

最明亮、最美丽的那颗行星，就是阿佛洛狄忒，也就是金星。

The brightest, most beautiful planet, Aphrodite, aka Venus.

最血腥的那颗行星，颜色像血一样，是战神阿瑞斯，也就是火星。

The bloodiest planet, the the planet that's the color of blood is Ares, the god of war, or Mars.

而最大的那颗行星，自然是众神之王宙斯，我们叫它木星。

And, of course, the largest planet, that's the king of the gods, Zeus, or as we call it, Jupiter.

但关键是，这些行星版的奥林匹斯神，其统治比传统众神要专横得多，因为行星不会被节日、祭祀或任何类似的东西打动。

But the thing is that the rule of these planetary Olympians is much, much more tyrannical than the rule of the traditional Olympian gods had been because the planets can't be swayed by festivals or by, you know, sacrifices or anything like that.

它们完全无动于衷。

They're completely indifferent.

它们就那样冷淡地悬在那里。

They're chill.

命运早已写在星象里，如果你信占星术，那就逃不掉。

The doom that's written in the stars, you believe in astrology, is something that you can't escape.

一直以来都有一种宿命论的色彩。

And there's always been an element of fatalism.

古希腊人对神明的理解里，一直都有宿命论的成分，对吧？

There's always been an element of fatalism in the Greek understanding of of the divine and one, hasn't there?

但现在的这种倾向是不是更明显了？

But it's become more pronounced now, would you say?

如果你相信命运早已被星辰锁定，那你能做的最好的事，就是拼命去研究占星，搞清楚它到底想怎样。

I think if you're if you if you believe that your fate is locked into the stars, all you can do, the best you can do is to try and learn what it is by becoming a massive kind of astrology fan.

但还有一种更悲观的可能性，那个时期也变得非常普遍——根本没有什么秩序，最强大的神其实是‘泰伊刻’，也就是希腊人说的命运或机缘。

But there is an even bleaker possibility, which also becomes very widespread in this period, that there is no order at all and that the greatest of all gods is taike, so Greek for fate, for fortune.

也就是说，根本不存在什么规律。

And that there is therefore, you know, there's no pattern there.

也没有什么理性可言。

There's no logos.

宇宙中根本不存在什么秩序，因此也无从理解。

There's no possibility of fathoming an order in the universe because there isn't one.

一位雅典诗人用极其沉重的话表达了这一点。

So an Athenian poet put it in kind of very devastating terms.

主宰凡人命运的不是理性，而是命运本身。

It's not logos which guides the affairs of mortals, but tyche.

你刚才说，这个时代的人们正在四处寻找答案和解决办法，而其中一些答案却非常黯淡。

So you were saying this is an age where people are looking around for answers and solutions, and some of these answers and solutions are very bleak.

对。

So Mhmm.

我觉得占星术非常悲观。

Now I think astrology is very bleak.

它直接告诉你未来会发生什么。

It it tells you what's gonna happen.

你根本无力改变任何事。

There's nothing you can do to affect it.

如果你觉得泰基是掌控一切的女神，那确实有位哲学家说得特别到位。

And if you think that that Taiki is the goddess that controls everything, then, you know, a philosopher sums it up well.

她对我们生活的影响，远超任何计算，而她的力量展现也完全无法预测。

Her influence on our on our lives is as beyond computation as the manifestations of her power are unpredictable.

不过我们刚才一直在聊哲学家。

And yet so we've been talking about philosophers.

但雅典或亚历山大街头的人，集市酒馆里的普通人，他们是怎么想的呢？

But what do the people in the streets of Athens or Alexandria, the taverns in the marketplaces, what do they think?

当我们讨论信仰时，总有个风险，就是过分看重那些真正热衷于这些话题、经常谈论它的一小部分人。

Because there's always a danger when we're talking about belief, that we overemphasize importance of that minority of people who really, really care about these things and talk about them a lot.

但大多数人其实根本不在乎。

But most people, of course, don't.

他们关心的是面包的价格，或者别的日常琐事。

They're interested in the price of bread or whatever.

所以，如果没人真信这些故事、觉得它们有意义，杰森和阿尔戈英雄们的传说也不会这么受欢迎。

So Jason and Argonauts would not have been so successful, presumably, unless there were loads of punters who loved this kind of thing and who genuinely thought that it had meaning, presumably.

那些曾经支撑希腊城邦独立性的古老仪式，即便在城邦不再独立之后，依然延续了下来。

The old rituals that had sustained the independent Greek city states carry on even though they're no longer independent.

对某些人来说，这些仪式就像英国的阅兵仪式或法国的巴士底日一样，成了传统象征。

And for for some, you know, it becomes like the equivalent of the trooping of the color or Bastille Day.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这大概就是它们所能达到的极限了。

I mean, that that that's kind of the limit of it.

但我认为，对很多人来说，他们依然真切地感受到神明就在身边，通过举行这些仪式和节日，他们与神明保持着联系。

But I think for lots of people, they they they do continue to feel that the gods are imminent and that by practicing these rituals and these festivals, they are in communion with the gods.

对。

Mhmm.

而且我觉得，也有一批知识分子其实深深怀念着这些神明，甚至热爱着它们，阿波罗尼奥斯就是个典型的例子。

But I think also there are intellectuals who clearly miss the gods, who love them, and Apollonius would be representative of that.

阿波罗尼奥斯写《阿尔戈英雄纪》的时候，可不是在当个乡下人。

Apollonius, when he writes the Argonautica, is not doing it as a hick.

他写的时候可不是个不懂行的人，他和卡利马科斯一样，都是顶尖学者，而且两人都在希腊化时代最顶尖的研究机构工作。

He's not doing it as someone who doesn't understand exactly what he's doing because he, like Callimachus, is a very, very great scholar, and they are both employed in the greatest of all the kind of research institutes that the Hellenistic period throws up.

我们之前做过一期专门讲这个，就是亚历山大图书馆。

We've done an episode on it, namely the Library of Alexandria.

卡利马科斯除了写那些深奥的诗，还负责编纂了图书馆的完整目录，那可是个规模庞大的工程。

So Callimachus is the guy, as well as writing Recondite poetry, he's drawn up the catalog of the library, you know, absolutely massive product.

而阿波罗尼奥斯则是研究荷马的学术专家。

And Apollonius is an academic specialist on Homer.

所以他写一部以荷马为范本的史诗时，完全是内行话。

So when he's writing, you know, an epic on the Homeric model, he knows what he's talking about.

他可是深度参与过荷马文本的权威整理工作，这正是亚历山大学者们特别热衷的事。

He's an absolute you know, he's been involved drawing up the kind of the canonical text of Homer, which is something that that scholars in Alexandria are really keen on doing it.

他做得太出色了，最后还当上了亚历山大图书馆的馆长，把卡利马科斯给挤下去了。

He does it so well that he ends up becoming the chief librarian of Alexandria, and he pips Callimachus to the job.

所以虽然有些学者对这两人之间是否存在文学竞争持怀疑态度，但我相信确实存在，因为这种情形完全可能引发激烈矛盾——他们肯定互相看不顺眼。

And so that's why, although there is skepticism among some scholars about the idea of this literary rivalry between the two men, I think there was, because I think that's exactly the kind of thing that would have prompt you know, they would have absolutely hated each other.