61. 加利福尼亚

这与它的历史相符。

Which is true to its history.

所以这一点是存在的。

And and so that's there.

然后，还有越来越多来自欧洲的人，我想，其中最著名的是那些帮助创立好莱坞的人。

And then you also get increasing numbers of people coming from Europe, of whom, I guess, the the most celebrated are those who helped set up Hollywood.

我这么说对吗？

Have I got that right?

是的。

Yeah.

但你忽略了亚洲人。

You've also but you have missed out the Asians.

所以。

So the

亚洲人？哦，中国人。

Asian Oh, the Chinese.

这真的很重要。

Is is really important.

中国人。

Chinese.

其实是中国人和日本人。

Chinese and Japanese, actually.

是的。

Yeah.

他们在19世纪末、20世纪初来到这里，作为契约劳工等等，主要是中国人。

So they come in the nineteenth late nineteenth century, early twentieth century, indentured labor and so on, Chinese.

他们也在修建铁路。

And they're helping to build railroads as well.

所以，是的。

So that the Yeah.

那叫什么来着？

The what is it?

中央太平洋铁路之类的

Central Pacific or something

就是一些东西。

like stuff.

这些巨大的铁路。

These these huge railroads.

我的意思是，你知道，我们想到的是，天哪。

I mean, you know, they are you we think of I mean, gosh.

这正是我们在加利福尼亚所做的了不起的事。

It's this is the great thing we do in California.

当你研究英国历史时，你会想到铁路时代和这个了不起的故事，但当你转向美国，转向西部的开拓时，

When you're doing British history, you think of the age of the railways and this amazing story, and then you turn it to America and the sort of conquest of the West.

而舞台规模大了上千倍，他们建造了这些庞大的铁路，你知道，又是成千上万的劳工，而且

And the canvas is just a thousand times larger, they're building these massive railroads, you know, thousands and thousands of laborers again And

他们是不是在互相竞争？

kind of racing each other, aren't they?

所以人们从东部来，从西部走。

So people coming from the East, people going from the West.

没错。

Exactly.

还有那些中国劳工，又一次被鞭打至死。

And people And that and all the Chinese laborers are just being flogged to death again

差不多吧。

Pretty much.

这同样也改变了加州的面貌，汤姆，因为你知道，我特别喜欢这一点——它属于那种微小却无关紧要的细节。我以前写关于五十年代英国的书时，会走遍各地，跟人们聊洗衣机的发明，以及它有多重要。

And that transforms the state as well, Tom, because what you have I mean, it I I love this because it's one of these details of these tiny insignificant I mean, I used to sort of when I was writing books about Britain in the fifties, you know, I'd basically travel the land talking to people about the invention of the washing machine and how important it was.

而这里的情况也是类似的。

And this is a similar level.

所以，冷藏铁路车厢的发明改变了加州，因为它变成了给东海岸供应物资的巨大农场。

So it's the invention of the refrigerated, railroad car, And that transforms California because it becomes a massive farm for the East Coast.

这些庞大的农场，对欧洲人来说简直难以想象——在加州内陆，成群的移民工人生产出丰富的水果和蔬菜，把它们装进冷藏车厢，然后运往东海岸。

So these colossal farms, I mean, just mind bogglingly large to a European in this sort of interior of California where all these sort of legions of of of sort of migrant workers are producing the cornucopia of fruits and vegetables, they're sticking them in the refrigerated cars, then off they go to the East Coast.

我的意思是，这彻底改变了加利福尼亚的经济。

I mean, that completely transforms the Californian economy.

还有加利福尼亚的形象，我想，因为从那时起，它就被视为一个充满丰饶的天堂，这种印象一直延续至今。

And also the image of California, I guess, because it's it's from that point on, it's seen as this kind of paradise full of of plenty, which I guess is, you know, runs to this day.

所以Sunkist和Sun Maid都是爱德华时代的品牌，也就是我们所说的爱德华时期品牌。

So Sunkist, Sun Maid, they're both Edwardian, what we would call Edwardian brands.

在那之前，他们不是已经发明了牛仔裤了吗？

And before that, they've invented jeans, haven't they?

是的。

Yeah.

就是在车库里发明的。

The in the garage.

但我也要告诉你，我之前没提到，有一位杰出的加州历史学家。

But also, I tell you what, I didn't so there's there's a brilliant historian of California.

他是一位伟大的历史学家，名叫凯文·斯塔尔，他写了一系列关于加州的书，几乎按十年为单位，书名中总是带有‘梦想’这个词。

He's one of the great historians called Kevin Star, and he's written this whole sequence of books about California sort of decade by decade almost, with dreams is always in the title.

所以这是一种充满斗争的梦境，梦想依然延续等等。

So it's kind of embattled dreams, the dream endures and so on.

他谈到的一个问题是，在那个时刻，加利福尼亚几乎成为了一个宏伟的旅行目的地。

One of the things he talks about is how at that moment, California is, it becomes almost like a kind of grand tour destination.

于是你从东海岸乘火车前往那里，这在以前是做不到的，你去那里是为了健康，或者它变成了美国的地中海。

So you go there from the East Coast on the train, which you couldn't do before, and you go there for health reasons or for it becomes a kind of Mediterranean of America.

你知道，健康和蓝天，正是在这一点上，人们开始前往南加州，出现了西班牙复兴风格的建筑，人们建造了酒店。

You know, health and blue skies, and that's the point at which people start going to Southern California, and you get this Spanish revival architecture and people build hotels.

所以即使在

And so even at

建造仿罗马别墅。

that building fake Roman villas.

是的。

Yeah.

所有这些都正是如此。

Exact all of that stuff.

它开始变成一个幻想世界。

It becomes this starts to become this fantasy world.

一旦有了铁路，你就可以把人们运进来，他们去那里进行健康疗养之类的活动。

Once you've the railroad, you can bring people in on sort of they're going on, you know, health retreats and all that stuff.

我们可能该休息一下了。

We should probably take a break.

但在那之前，你谈到了梦想，谈到了幻想。

But before we do that and you talk about dreams, you talk about fantasy.

我认为我们应该谈谈好莱坞的起源，某种程度上，这正是全世界人都在梦想和想象中拥有加州的原因。

I think we should talk about the beginning of Hollywood, which in a way is why everybody across the world has California in their dreams and their imaginings.

那么，跟我讲讲好莱坞的起源吧。

So tell me about the beginnings of Hollywood.

为什么电影产业会在那里？

Why is the film industry where it is?

实际上，真正的原因非常平凡。

It's there's actually the the the the honest reason is so banal.

你知道的，你会失望的。

You know, you'll be disappointed.

是天气的原因。

It's the weather.

不是。

No.

这你懂的，住在英国，我

That's, you know, living in England, I

我可以

I can

完全能理解。

totally accept that.

所以人们大约从1910年代开始大规模前往好莱坞，我认为有两个原因。

So people start I think they start going round about the nineteen tens or so in a big way to Hollywood, and they go there I think there's two actually reasons.

一个是天气，另一个是为了逃避监管。

One is, the weather, and the other is to escape regulators.

所以，如果他们当时在纽约、新泽西一带大量拍片，而负责监管电影产业、经常对他们进行检查并收取各种费用的机构——也就是所谓的托拉斯——正好设在新泽西的话。

So if they were doing a lot of filming around sort of New York, New Jersey, but the the sort of the body that was regulating the film industry and was basically, you know, checking up on them and charging them for this and that and the other, which was called the trust was based in New Jersey.

他们只想逃离那里，去一个阳光充足的地方，这样就能在外面搭景，因为那里空间广阔，而且他们也需要好天气。

And they just wanted to get away, and they wanted to go somewhere sunny so they could do they could build sets outside because they got tons of space, and they wanted weather.

你知道的？

You know?

如果你用爱德华时代那种设备拍片，一旦下雨，基本上就全泡汤了。

If you're filming in with that equipment, sort of Edwardian era equipment, and it rains, you know, you bug it, basically.

是的。

Yeah.

所以你需要保证有良好的天气来进行户外拍摄和采光，当然了。

So you need to guarantee good weather to do our external filming and light, of course.

对。

Yeah.

所以这简直再完美不过了。

So it's kind of perfect.

他们去了那里，然后就形成了那种经典的局面，你知道的，临界点。

They go there, and then it becomes that classic thing, you know, critical mass.

有一种趋势促使人们前往那里。

There's a momentum to go there.

查理·卓别林、玛丽·皮克福德、道格拉斯·范朋克等人纷纷来到那里。

Charlie Chaplin and, you know, Mary Pickford and Douglas Fairbanks and co pitch up there.

突然间，那里就成了那个地方。

And then suddenly, it just becomes the place.

做这件事的地方。

The place to do it.

就在那一刻，正是那个确切的时刻，欧洲的竞争对手电影产业被第一次世界大战摧毁了。

And at that moment, at that precise moment, the European rival European film industries are destroyed by the first World War.

因此，他们无法再以同样的规模生产电影，而好莱坞突然成了中心，并且实现了工业化。

So they're not producing films in anything like the same numbers, and suddenly Hollywood is where it's happening, and it becomes industrialized.

他们收购了所有电影院，整个行业变得垂直整合。

They buy up all the cinemas, and it becomes kind of the industry is vertically integrated.

到了二十世纪二十年代末，挑战好莱坞的想法简直不可想象。

And, you know, by the end of the nineteen twenties, the idea of challenging Hollywood is unthinkable.

我在说的是，成百上千的孩子都在问，加利福尼亚是不是历史的终结之地？

I'm talking about children hundreds question, is California where history goes to die?

我的意思是，这也是乌尔萨斯历史的建造过程。

I mean, it's also the the the building of Ursat's history.

因为正如你所说，你可以在沙漠中建造巨大的宏伟布景。

Because as you say, you can build huge great sets out in the desert.

所以它们还在那里，对吧？

So they're still there, aren't they?

所有那些巴比伦和史诗类影片的复刻场景。

All the kind of recreations of Babylon and Epics and things.

它们非常有名。

They're very famous.

它们确实是。

They're yeah.

它们是最伟大的，不是吗？

They're the great ones, aren't they?

实际上，这稍微跳到了未来，但迪士尼乐园就是这样。

And, actually, this is jumping forward a little bit, but that's what Disneyland is.

迪士尼乐园是二十世纪加利福尼亚的完美隐喻，因为迪士尼乐园建于1955年——我们刚才跳过了这段，但事实就是这样。

Disneyland is a perfect metaphor for twentieth century California because Disneyland's built we were jumping ahead, but it's 1955.

你走进去，看到的是美国主街，这是一种理想化的小城镇美国图景，而即使在当时，这种图景也正在消失。

And you go in, and it's Main Street USA, so it's an idealized vision of of a small town America that even at that moment is disappearing.

然后是一些主题区域，你知道，比如边疆之地，代表了美国西部片的风格。

And then some of the lands, you know, it's frontier land, which is the kind of American western.

这里有征服西部的意象，还有明日世界，象征着一个理想化的未来。

There's this image of the conquest of the West, and Tomorrowland, which is an image of an idealized future.

从某种意义上说，这正是迪士尼乐园如此成功地成为加利福尼亚象征的原因，因为加利福尼亚就是这一切。

And that, in a sense, is why Disneyland works so well as a kind of as a symbol of California because that's all that California is.

它是一个理想化的美国。

It's an idealized America.

它拥有一个虚构的过去，也拥有一个想象的未来。

It's got a it's got a kind of invented past, and it's got a kind of imagined future.

我认为，这正是让我们广告赞助商发言的完美时机。

That is a perfect note, I think, on which to have a word from our sponsors.

本集由费olio出版社赞助，我是Tabby和Dominic，来自《读书会》——Goal Hanger的最新节目。

This episode is brought to you by the Folio Society, and it's Tabby and Dominic here from The Book Club, goal hanger's latest show.

现在，Tabby，你知道，有些书你只读一遍，但还有一些书你特别愿意反复阅读。

Now, Tabby, as you know, there are some books that you read once, but there are others you especially return to again and again.

而那些第二种书，它们确实值得长久留存，对吧？

And those second kind of books, they really deserve to last, don't they?

这正是Folio出版社所做的。

That's what the Folio Society does.

他们是一家位于伦敦的独立员工所有出版社。

They are an independent employee owned publisher based in London.

每一本书都配有特别委托创作的精美插图和特别撰写的导言，将故事置于其历史背景之中。

Every book is produced with specially commissioned beautiful artwork and specially commissioned introduction that puts the story in its context.

Folio Society出版了我们热爱的书籍，从勃朗特到狄更斯，从玛格丽特·阿特伍德到汤姆·霍兰德。

Folio Society publishes the books we love, from Bronte to Dickens, from Margaret Atwood to Tom Holland.

这些书籍本身就能让人感受到艺术品的魅力。

The books can feel like works of art in their own right.

它们以文本为核心，讲述那些经久不衰的故事，书籍本身也经得起时间考验。

They're built around the text, the stories that last in books that are made to last.

如果一个故事很重要，就该好好保存它。

If a story matters, keep it properly.

请访问 foliosociety.com/thebookclub 获取。

Find it at foliosociety.com/thebookclub.

网址是 foliosociety.com/thebookclub。

That's foliosociety.com/thebookclub.

你好。

Hello.

欢迎回到《历史其余部分》。

Welcome back to The Rest is History.

我们正在畅想加州，接下来我们将以尼古拉斯·罗杰斯议员的一个问题开启下半部分：加州及其主要城市，尤其是洛杉矶的发展，在多大程度上与水资源、灌溉及其引发的政治因素相关？

We are California dreaming, and, we're gonna kick off the second half with a question from Nicholas Rogers AM, who asks, how much is the development of California and its major cities, especially Los Angeles, linked to water, irrigation, and the resulting politics?

所以，多米尼克，这正是加州的典型情况——既是严肃政治历史的一部分，也是好莱坞的素材，对吧？

So, Dominic, that's the I mean, that's the stuff as is the case with California, both of hardcore political history, you know, and of Hollywood, isn't it?

没错。

That's It

是的。

is.

这不就是《唐人街》吗？

It's Chinatown, isn't

对吧？

it?

是的。

Yeah.

这部1974年的经典黑色电影《唐人街》的故事。

The story of the great film, film noir Chinatown 1974.

是的。

Yes.

因此，加利福尼亚的大部分地区都非常干旱。

So a lot of California is pretty arid.

基本上，这里的故事是二十世纪出现了巨大的增长。

And, basically, the story there's this colossal growth in the twentieth century.

我的意思是，人口和城市化实现了天文数字般的增长。

I mean, astronomical growth in population urbanization.

尤其是像洛杉矶这样的地方，本不该存在一座城市，因为那里水资源不足。

And places like Los Angeles in particular, mean, that's a city where there shouldn't really be a city because there's not enough water.

因此，他们在二十世纪初启动了一项庞大的公共工程，通过一系列水坝、水库等设施将水源引至城市，用于灌溉土地，以便将这里打造成一座大都市。

So what they did, they have this huge big public project at the beginning of the twentieth century to bring water through a series of dams and reservoirs and stuff to the city to irrigate the land to, you know, basically so that they can turn it into this metropolis.

我认为在洛杉矶的情况下，他们引走了欧文斯河的水，并彻底破坏了那里的生态环境。

And I think in LA's case, it's the Owens River that they that they divert and basically devastate.

当然，这些大型工程伴随着大量腐败，但这是一个相信人们有权驯服自然的时代。

And, yeah, there's tons of corruption, obviously, associated with these big projects, but it's an age that believes in you know, it's an age when people believe they have a right to sort of tame nature.

我的意思是，这就是加利福尼亚故事的一部分。

I mean, that's part of the story of California.

它既是自然的天堂，也是人类如何对待原始自然的一个警示案例。

It's both a natural paradise, and it is an object lesson in what humanity does to kind of unspoiled nature.

因此，你有红杉、优胜美地、大苏尔这些令人惊叹的国家公园和绝美的自然景观。

So you have these amazing national parks in the Redwoods and, you know, Yosemite and Big Sur and these fantastic landscapes.

但与此同时，你也有洛杉矶。

But at the same time, you have LA.

我的意思是，我喜欢洛杉矶，当然，很多人讨厌它。

I mean, I like LA, and, you know, a lot of people hate it.

我真的喜欢洛杉矶，但它确实严重污染。

I really like LA, but it's it is this kind of, you know, it's a it's a terribly polluted.

它象征着人类对自然世界的滥用，不是吗？

It's a symbol of, you know, man's abuse of the natural world, isn't it?

它也是，我们之前谈过巴黎，说它是个以罪犯闻名的城市，比如阿涅斯·帕里耶。

It's it's also, we we talked about Paris as as a cry as a city famous for its criminals with Agnies Parrier.

但我觉得，洛杉矶和伦敦一样，都是犯罪率很高的大城市。

But there's a sense I mean, LA as well, with London, I guess, is one of the great cities for crime.

可以拍黑色电影。

You could film noirs

还有雷蒙德·钱德勒，以及詹姆斯……

and Raymond Chandler and and and then, I guess, James

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yes.

在詹姆斯·艾洛伊的小说中，他总是提到齐普服骚乱。

So in James Elroy's novels, he's always talking about the zoot suit riots.

是的。

And Yeah.

不好意思，我从来没去查过什么是齐普服，或者齐普服骚乱究竟是怎么回事。

I'm ashamed to say I've never actually I've never actually looked up what a zoot suit is or what the zoot suit riots are.

你能回答我这个问题吗？

Are you are you able to answer that for me?

我可以回答。

I can answer it.

听众是否认为我对此有所了解是另一回事，但我可以给出一个答案。

Whether the listeners will, think I know anything about it is a different matter, but I can give an answer.

因此，加利福尼亚在第二次世界大战期间因明显的原因而陷入动荡。

So California goes into the, second World War quite troubled for obvious reasons.

它极易受到日本的攻击，并且曾多次出现日本入侵和轰炸的恐慌。

It's very vulnerable to Japanese attack, and there are Japanese invasion scares, Japanese bombing scares,

所有斯皮尔伯格的作品中，1949年那部大失败了。

all the Spielberg's one big flop, 1949.

1941年。

'41.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，是的，曾经有一次著名事件，人们以为自己正遭到日本或日本飞机的轰炸，但实际上并没有。

And, yeah, there was this very famous occasion when people thought they were being bombed by the the Japanese or Japanese planes were attacking, and they weren't.

但你知道，加利福尼亚有成千上万的日裔美国人。

But, you know, there's tons of tens of thousands of Japanese Americans in California.

他们全都被送进了集中营，嗯。

They all get put in camps Mhmm.

基本上都被迁离了海岸线。

Basically moved away from the coast.

当时有一种明显的、潜伏着的紧张气氛。

There's a real sense of kind of, you know, simmering tension.

我认为部分原因是加利福尼亚是美国海军的主要基地之一。

I think partly because California was the main one of the main bases for the US Navy.

所以，任何时候都有大量海军士兵——年轻男子，但同时也有许多不在海军中的墨西哥裔美国人，他们穿着齐特服装四处游荡。

So there there are tons of you know, there there at any given moment, there are tons of navy servicemen, young men, but there are also lots of Mexican Americans who are not in the navy, who are sort of, you know, sort of wandering about in their zoot suits.

对于英国听众来说，齐特服装某种程度上相当于英国的泰迪男孩风格。

Now zoot suits for British listeners, they're sort of the American equivalent of teddy boys to an extent.

所以他们穿着这种华丽的、有点爱德华时代风格的服装，发型也很讲究。

So they're wearing these kind of extravagant, sort of sort of, yeah, they're sort of Edwardian costumes, fancy hairdos.

他们非常花哨。

They're very dandy ish.

而且你可以想象当时的场景。

And they're sort of and you can just imagine the scene.

你知道的。

You know?

这些家伙以一种典型的青少年男孩方式大摇大摆地走在街上，但在二十世纪四十年代加利福尼亚这个种族化的世界里，美国海军和海军陆战队的人会想：这些墨西哥人怎么这样大摇大摆地走？

They these guys are sort of swaggering down the street in in in what we might say is a classic kind of teenage young man way, but to in the sort of racialized world of nineteen forties California, the the US Navy guys and the marines and stuff say, oh, who are these Mexicans walking in their sort of swaggering way?

墨西哥人就是这么行事的。

This is how Mexicans behave.

这太糟糕了。

It's very bad.

他们偷我们的女人，诸如此类的废话。

They're stealing our women, blah blah blah blah blah.

于是就爆发了这些暴乱，至于暴力的程度存在争议，因为当时报纸的报道方式，正如你所知，总是带有种族偏见。

And so you get these riots, these and the, you know, the sort of the the level of violence is is disputed because, of course, as was the way newspapers reported it, again, in quite sort of rate what you see in racialized ways.

但当时确实存在真正的担忧。

But there was a real, you know, worry.

我的意思是，美军高层担心他们的士兵会失去控制。

I mean, The US sort of high command that their troops would run out of control.

他们基本上在街头游荡，殴打墨西哥裔青年。

They're basically roaming the streets, beating up Mexican strip.

有趣的是，他们剥掉了这些人的衣服，尤其是裤子。

And interestingly, they stripped them of their clothes and particularly their trousers.

是的。

Right.

这是一种象征，你知道，他们显然试图以某种方式剥夺他们的男性气概。

It's this sort of sign, you know, they're obviously trying to emasculate them in some way.

而且确实造成了大量伤害。

And it's a real there's a you know, there's a lot of damage.

有很多，我不太记得具体的伤亡数字，但确实如此。

There's a lot of, I don't know the, I don't have no offhand the sort of the toll of injuries or or deaths, but it is a yeah.

我认为实际上没有人死亡。

It's a I think nobody died actually.

但我觉得这是一场非常严重的叛乱。

So but I think it's it's a very serious sort of insurrection.

因此，种族紧张关系是一个主题，尤其是在洛杉矶，我想。

And so so so racial tensions are are one of the themes, particularly in LA, I guess.

是的。

Yeah.

我一直以来都住在这里。

I've always been here.

1992年瓦茨事件。

Watts in nineteen King ninety two.

但这并不总是非黑即白的。

And it's not but it's not always black and white.

我的意思是，虽然我说的是黑白，但我指的是非裔美国人和欧洲裔美国人。

I mean, lit but I mean, when I say black and white, I mean African Americans and and sort of European Americans.

所以很多问题都与西班牙裔、日本人或中国人有关。

So a lot of it is to do with Hispanics or Japanese or Chinese.

这也是为什么加利福尼亚成为一个如此丰富而有趣的研究对象，因为它实在太多元化了。

And that's one of the things that makes California such a a rich and interesting subject is the diverse it is so diverse.

是的。

Yeah.

而现在，显然，尽管说‘大熔炉’这个说法已经陈词滥调，但作为一个欧洲访客，我现在感受到的加利福尼亚有着异常浓厚的西班牙裔氛围，这种感觉让一些美国人一直感到不安。

And and then now, obviously, is the as the is the sort of absolute, I mean, I don't wanna say the melting box is such a cliche, but it obviously is a it feels as a European visitor now extraordinarily Hispanic, in a way that some Americans have always found makes them anxious.

所以这是一个主题。

So that's one theme.

还有一个主题由帕特·罗伯茨突出强调，我知道这正是你感兴趣的领域。

There's another one that's highlighted by Pat Roberts, which I know is right up your street.

加利福尼亚是如何从最共和党的州、尼克松和里根的故乡，转变为最民主的州的？

And how has California gone from the most Republican state, the home of Nixon and Reagan, to the most Democratic?

所以我们现在会认为加利福尼亚绝对是民主党的典范。

So now we would think of of California as absolutely, you know, the essence of of democratic Yeah.

州政策甚至更加左倾。

Policy of state even further to the left Yeah.

比民主党还要左。

Than than the Democrats.

但正如帕特所说，它曾是尼克松的根据地。

But, you know, as as Pat says, it it's it was the base of Vixen.

它曾是里根的根据地。

It was the base of Reagan.

它曾是施瓦辛格的根据地。

It was the base of Scharzenegger.

是的。

Yeah.

但加州一直以来都是共和党的大本营，我认为这背后的原因，汤姆，会很符合你一贯强调的兴趣。

But they're all well, the the California was always very Republican, I think, for reasons that would appeal to you, Tom, given your own much stated interests.

实际上，去加州的是某种特定类型的基督徒。

So it was a particular kind of Christians, actually, that that went to California.

这跟恐龙一点关系都没有。

So Nothing to do with dinosaurs.

他们不是。

They were no.

可惜，全是罗马人。

Sadly, all Romans.

所以当加州大规模扩张时，去那里的人中，大多数——至少是相当大的多数——是来自美国中西部的白人新教徒。

So when California massively expanded, the people who went there, the majority of them, I guess, or at least a very large plurality, were white protestants from the American Midwest.

因此，尼克松就是一个非常好的例子。

So that so actually, Nixon is a very good example of this.

所以，我认为他父亲来自俄亥俄州，他们是贵格会教徒。

So his dad, I think, came from Ohio, and they're Quakers.

这些人去了加州，他们对某种福音派宗教传统持同情态度。

So these guys go to California, and they they are they are sort of sympathetic to a kind of evangelical religious tradition.

所以我不知道你有没有去过洛杉矶，那里有一座名为水晶大教堂的惊人建筑，这正是这种文化的绝佳象征。

So I don't know if you've ever been to there's an amazing building called the Crystal Cathedral in Los Angeles, which is a great symbol of this.

太棒了。

It's great.

闪闪发光的玻璃结构，世界上最大的玻璃建筑，一座福音派教堂。

Shining glass, the world's largest glass building, an evangelical church.

我的意思是，加利福尼亚到处都是福音派教堂。

I mean, California is full of evangelical churches.

所以这些人全都去了，而这种传统非常倾向于共和党。

So these guys all went, and and that tradition was very republican.

白人、新教徒、中产阶级，这是共和党的基石。

So white, protestant, middle class, that was the bedrock of the republican party.

而尼克松本人就体现了这一点。

And Nixon himself incarnated that.

所以他来自一个贵格会家庭。

So he's from a Quaker family.

他相信节制、节俭以及所有这些他视为传统共和党美德的品质，直到六十年代，人们一直投票支持这些价值观。

He believes in kind of sobriety and thrift and all these sort of what he sees as traditional republican virtues, and people always voted for them up to the sixties.

然后发生了转变。

And then Then the change

变化发生了。

happens.

接着，加利福尼亚出现了巨大的人口结构变化。

Then California, there's a huge demographic change.

因此，加利福尼亚变得多元化得多。

So California does become much more diverse.

这些人开始失去优势——他们现在仍然存在，但我猜，已经被人数超过了。

Those people start to lose their so they're still there now, but they're, I I guess, outnumbered.

但六十年代，是的。

But the sixties Yeah.

讨厌阿什伯里。

Hate Ashbury.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

在旧金山，头发上插着花朵，所有这类东西。

In San Francisco, flowers in your hair, all that kind of stuff.

是什么促成了这种变化？

What's precipitating that?

因为某种程度上，加州，尤其是旧金山，成为了六十年代的中心，不是吗？

Because in a in a way, California, San Francisco in particular, becomes the epicenter of the sixties, doesn't it?

确实是。

It does.

但我认为这是因为加州不仅从淘金热时期开始扩张，还因为战争、大型大学体系的发展以及电子产业的兴起而大幅扩张。

But I guess that's because so California has massively expanded from not just from the gold rush, but it's massively expanded due to the war and due to the growth of huge university complexes and things and electronics.

像惠普这样的公司当时已经在交易了。

People people like Hewlett Packard are trading at this point.

你知道的。

You know?

所以这确实是军事工业复合体在发挥作用。

So you have this I mean, it really is the military industrial complex in action.

所以你有这些在四十年代和五十年代搬去那里的人，而他们的孩子现在正推动着这一切。

So you have all these people that moved there in the forties and fifties, and these are now their kids who are involved in all, who are driving all that.

他们大多是中产阶级的孩子，就读于伯克利、斯坦福等大学，还有洛杉矶的南加州大学，人数非常多。

So they're middle class kids by and large at universities like Berkeley and Stanford and so on and the University of Southern California in LA, and there's a lot of them.

他们非常富裕。

They're very affluent.

他们很有理想主义。

They're idealistic.

越南战争爆发了。

The Vietnam War has kicked off.

民权运动正在进行。

The civil rights movement is going.

因此这推动了这一切。

So that drives a lot of that.

他们有钱到不必担心工作。

They're rich enough not to have to worry about jobs.

是的。

Yeah.

他们有钱到可以留胡子。

They're rich enough to be able to grow their beards.

当然。

Of course.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这就是为什么，我打赌如果你去了解那些住在公社里的人的背景，还有那些——我的意思是，在英国，我们称他们为‘信托富二代’，这样的人很多。

That's why actually I I bet you if you go into the sort of demographic sort of background of people who are in communes and people who I mean, there's a lot of them who are in Britain, we would call them trustafarians.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，这归功于加利福尼亚的富裕。

And I think, you know, that it's the affluence of California.

那是非凡的财富、机遇，以及六十年代那种无拘无束的自由感，而这正是由大规模的人口和经济变迁所催生的。

It's extraordinary wealth and and possibility and the sense of limitless freedom in the sixties that is a product of that big sort of demographic change and economic change.

这推动了海滩波西风格，以及杰斐逊飞机乐队那种加州生活方式，而这种生活方式又催生了罗纳德·里根式的反作用力。

That drives the sort of beach Boise and then the Jefferson airplane ish kind of side of California life in the late and that then produces its own backlash in the form of Ronald Reagan.

然后情况就变得阴暗了，不是吗？

And it darkens, doesn't it?

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

在六十年代，比如查尔斯·曼森和

In the sixties, say Charles Manson and

是的。

Yeah.

至于加利福尼亚本身，我认为，可能很多这个播客的听众都会同意，当你想到加利福尼亚时，正如你所说，汤姆，你会想到六十年代的加利福尼亚。

And California itself, I think that and probably lots of listeners to this podcast will agree that when you think of California, you do think, as you said, Tom, of sort of sixties California.

在六十年代之后，进入七十年代时，某种程度上，局面开始有些失控。

And there is a sense in which after the sixties, when you get into the seventies, the wheels slightly begin to to come off.

有一种更强烈的负面情绪。

There's a sort of there's a greater negativity.

是的。

Yeah.

我们现在对这种负面效应非常敏感。

We're very conscious of that downside now.

我的意思是，在七十年代，从旧金山涌现出来的最具代表性的文化形象大概是《肮脏的哈里》，一个义警。

In I mean, in in the seventies, I suppose the great cultural icon that comes from San Francisco is Dirty Harry, a vigilante

是的。

Yeah.

一位持共和党立场的警察，在

Republican voting cop in the

由克林特·伊斯特伍德饰演，而他本人后来还当上了卡梅尔的共和党市长。

form of Clint Eastwood, who then himself goes on to become Republican mayor of Carmel.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

他确实如此。

He does.

克林特·伊斯特伍德确实如此。

Clint Eastwood does.

还有里根。

And Reagan.

我的意思是，里根是好莱坞出身的，对吧。

I mean, Reagan is a Hollywood Yeah.

他原本是民主党人，后来通过强调法律与秩序，声称要强力清除嬉皮士，逼他们剃须，当上了加州州长。

Former Democrat, you know, who becomes governor of California by basically saying, you know, law and order, let he he's gonna wash forcibly wash hippies and make them shave

他们的七十年代？

their seventies?

脸。

Face.

这是1966年。

This is '66.

1966年？

'66?

好的。

Okay.

但早先时候，加利福尼亚总是领先于美国其他地区，甚至可以说，领先于整个西方世界。

But earlier California is always ahead of the rest of The United States and indeed arguably, and we've got tons of questions about this, ahead of the rest of the Western world.

我认为加利福尼亚之所以领先，至今仍如此，是因为它富裕，而且是娱乐业和科技业的中心。

And I think California was ahead and still is because of its affluence, and and because it was it's the it's the home of entertainment, but also of technology.

所以科技，尤其是计算机。

So technology, you know, computers in particular.

所以我们谈的是七十年代的《肮脏的哈里》。

So the '7 we're about the seventies dirty Harry.

这其实是个有争议的观点，对吧？

There's an argument, isn't there?

当你回顾加州的历史时，七十年代最引人注目的就是像苹果这样的公司。

When you look back in Californian history, the the thing that will strike you around the seventies is things like Apple.

所以史蒂夫·乔布斯，你知道的？

So Steve Jobs and you know?

是的。

Yes.

有趣的是，尽管现在几乎所有产品都来自中国或台湾，但苹果仍然选择在加州组装并发货，依然标榜为‘加州制造’。

And they still it's so telling that Apple still although so many of this basically, everything now comes from China or Taiwan, but they will still have because they assemble it and send it out from California, they still have them made by Apple in California.

加州这个标签对苹果的品牌形象如此重要，不是吗？

And that California badge is so important to Apple's branding, isn't it?

这正是你购买苹果电脑或iPhone时所感受到的。

That's what you feel you're buying

当你购买苹果电脑或iPhone时。

with an Apple computer or with an iPhone.

你买的是未来。

You're buying the future.

当然。

Absolutely.

当然，从我们现在的视角来看，比尔·盖茨和史蒂夫·乔布斯可以说是战后加州历史中的关键人物。

And and, of course, we would now, from our perspective, see that, you know, it's Bill Gates and Steve Jobs who are the key figures in, I guess, postwar the whole of postwar Californian history, really.

因为如今我们生活的这个互联世界，本质上是在加州发明的。

Because it's it's it's the world we live in now, the wired world, is is invented in California, essentially.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为，这种创新可能只有在加州才能发生。

And I think it probably could only have been invented in California.

部分原因是军事因素，因为二战期间加州被选为大量军事开支的所在地，有海军基地等等；部分原因是长期以来，无线电和电视公司一直在加州发展，显然也得益于好莱坞；再加上七十年代和八十年代硅谷的崛起，以及众多大学的存在。

And the because partly because of the military, because that's the place that's been chosen for so much military spending because of the navy bases and stuff in World War two, partly because technology has been radio and TV firms have been working for California for decades, obviously because of Hollywood, and then you have the the growth of Silicon Valley in the seventies and eighties, and so many universities.

我的意思是，加州在二十世纪对大学进行了大量投资。

I mean, California massively invested in universities in the twentieth century.

所以斯坦福、伯克利，还有那些大型州立大学等等。

So Stanford, Berkeley, the big and the big state universities and so on.

正因为如此，才产生了这种能量，孕育了像史蒂夫·乔布斯这样的人。

Because of that, have this kind of all this sort of energy, which produces people like Steve Jobs and so on.

然后现在，他们有了尼克·克莱格。

Then it become I mean, now they have, of course, Nick Clegg.

他们给了我们苹果电脑，而我们给了他们尼克·克莱格。

They've given us the Apple computer, and we've given them Nick Clegg.

所以，你知道的，大家都赢了。

So, you know, everybody wins.

我有个朋友住在硅谷，他很热心地带我参观了谷歌和苹果的总部之类的地方。

Well, so I I I've got a friend who lives in Silicon Valley, he very kindly took me on a tour around all the Google and Apple headquarters and things like that.

那地方基本上有点像斯劳。

And it basically, it's a, you know, it's a bit like Slough.

我的意思是，那里就是

I mean, it's it's

我知道。

I know.

不是。

Doesn't.

考虑到这一点，你知道，这涉及文化、经济和金融实力，但它看起来异常乏味。

Considering that, you know, it's it's cultural, it's economic, it's financial power, it it looks incredibly dull.

但这不正是它的奇怪之处吗？

But that's the weird thing about it, isn't it?

因为当我们去加州时，经常会说，哦，住在这里该有多棒啊，诸如此类的话。

Because sometimes when we've been to California, you know, we'd say, oh, wouldn't it be amazing to live here and stuff?

但你总会有一种感觉，那就是你只是生活在一个巨大的郊区。

But there is this kind of sense that you're just living in a massive suburb.

我的话要向我们的加州听众道歉。

I mean, I apologize to our Californian listeners.

我觉得我们之前对加州的评价已经很高了，所以现在该说点它的不是了。

I think we've been very I think we've been full of praise for California, so it's it's time to to be a bit rude about it.

如果你住在洛杉矶，我是说，我爱洛杉矶。

If you lived in LA if you lived in LA I mean, I love LA.

我喜欢去洛杉矶。

I like going to LA.

我喜欢那种感觉，你知道，我就像成了好莱坞电影里的一个群演。

I like the sense of and it is that that sense of, you know, I'm now an extra in a in a Hollywood movie.

我走在那些我曾在电影里见过的地方。

I'm walking around places that I've seen on

那是最令人兴奋的地方。

It's the most exciting place to go.

我完全同意。

I completely agree.

我的意思是，如果你不是来自加州，你会感觉像是回到了自己的梦想之地，当

I mean, it's if you're not if you're not from California, it it's you feel like you're kind of coming home to your dreams when

你去那里时。

you go there.

而且这太不可思议了。

And it is incredible.

但如果你想象一下住在100号、1000号，你知道的，1128号，是的。

But then if you sort of said, imagine living at Number 100 And 1000, you know, 1128 Yes.

某种干燥的东西。

Something dry.

帕洛阿尔托。

Palo Alto.

是的。

Yeah.

你有一栋巨大的房子和一个游泳池。

And you've got this massive house and a pool.

我其实不知道自己会做什么。

I actually wouldn't know what I wouldn't know what to do with myself.

但事实上，你知道，如果你在硅谷，你的房子不太可能那么大。

Except that, actually, you know, if you're in Silicon Valley, the likelihood is your house isn't going to be that massive.

不。

No.

即使

Even if

即使你

you're even if you're

杰夫·贝佐斯住在大房子里，而你住在路尽头的小屋里。

Jeff Bezos is living in the big house, and you're living in the shack at the bottom of the road.

我们看了扎克伯格的家。

Well, we looked at Zuckerberg's house.

实际上还挺普通的，我的意思是，房子是大，但没大到像布伦海姆宫或凡尔赛宫那样。

It was actually quite you know, I mean, it's big, but it wasn't it wasn't kind of Blenheim Palace or Versailles big.

是的。

Yeah.

我想，现在笼罩加州的一个问题是，它实际上已经两次创造了未来。

And I guess that that one of one of the questions that that hangs over California now is that it's essentially, it's created the future twice.

所以，它先是通过好莱坞创造了未来，然后又通过计算、互联网以及所有这些相关领域创造了未来。

So it's created the future with Hollywood, and then it's created the future with computing, Internet, all that kind of stuff.

但问题是，它还能再次做到这一点吗？还是说它已经变得过于阶层固化，成了自身成功的牺牲品？

But, the the question then is, would it be able to do it again, or has it become too stratified, too much the victim of his own success?

顶层的人如此富有，是的。

Are those at the top so wealthy Yeah.

而这样一来，底层的人现在根本没有任何机会了吗？

And that that, essentially, there's no way in now for those at the bottom?

如果现在有史蒂夫·乔布斯，他还能从零开始闯出一片天地吗？

Would Steve Jobs now be able to make his way and start something up from scratch?

而且

And

这是一个很好的问题，因为我认为，加州的一个问题是，它已经成为贫富差距的典型例证。

Well, that's a good question because I think, one of the issues with California is how it has become an object lesson in the rich and the poor.

作为一名英国访客，这一点在加州非常明显。

And there was a real it's something that is very noticeable as a British visitor to California.

我并不是说英国就完美无缺，但某些公共基础设施的粗劣确实令人震惊。

I'm not claiming that Britain is is perfect by any means, but the the the shoddiness of some of the public infrastructure.

比如说

So for example

dicks of axe。

Dick of Axe.

dicks of axe 的问题。

Dick of Axe's question.

对。

Right.

一个如此富裕且有文化素养的州，为何会存在严重的无家可归问题？我听说在加州这样的地方，随地大小便的现象非常普遍。

How is it that a very rich and cultured state also has massive homelessness problems where I've been told that human excrement, you you love a bit of human excrement, is common to find in places like California.

可以顺便提一下巴黎街头随地小便的相似情况。

Opportunity for a call back to parallels with Paris street urination.

所以你又可以拿巴黎开涮了，而且

So you can be rude about Paris again and

是的。

Yeah.

我见过有人在巴黎的街上小便。

So I have seen people urinating the streets in Paris.

我从未在加州见过有人这么做。

I've never seen them doing it in California.

但确实存在一个严重的无家可归问题。

But is is onto something that there is a huge homelessness problem.

像旧金山这样的城市已经变成了富人和穷人两极分化的城市。

Know, places like San Francisco have become very much a city of the haves and have nots.

但同时，基础设施也普遍存在问题。

But, also, there's generally an infrastructure problem.

加州的学校长期严重缺乏资金。

So California has constant problems with its schools being hideously underfunded.

这部分原因，汤姆，作为一个著名的马克思主义历史学家，你的回答会非常简单。

Now part of this, Tom, and this will not surprise you coming from a well known Marxist historian, the answer to this is very simple.

加利福尼亚人缴纳的税不够，自上世纪七十年代以来就一直缴得不够。

Californians don't pay enough tax, and they haven't paid enough tax since the nineteen seventies.

还有你的左翼观点。

And your left wing opinions.

其中一个原因是，他们的政治非常独特，肯定会迎合你这种支持者。

And one reason for that is that they have a very unusual kind of politics that will definitely will appeal to you with your Yes.

现在，西蒙·格尔德莱斯顿又来提出一些问题。

Well, Simon Gerdleston coming in again with some questions.

加利福尼亚在多大程度上是其奇特的宪法、直接公投修正案和经常非常自由的立法的产物？

To what extent is California the product of its strange constitution, direct ballot amendments, introduced laws that are often very liberal, e.

关于言论自由、保守的法律与秩序，这些同时存在，却无法在没有另一次公投的情况下改变。

On free speech, conservative law and order, and all exist at the same time and are impossible to change without another plebiscite.

公投政治。

Plebiscitory politics.

加利福尼亚几十年来一直如此，这确实是个问题。

That is California has been doing that for decades, and it is a real, I think, a problem.

他们基本上就是这样，我们在英国经常问，嘿。

They have basically, we often ask in Britain, though, hey.

如果政治变成了一场庞大的真人秀，人们对每件事都投票，会怎样？

What's if if politics turned into a colossal reality show, and people were voting about everything.

他们被邀请去投票。

They're invited to vote.

这基本上就是加州政治的样子。

That's basically what California politics is.

他们有提案。

They have propositions.

你们英国人经常在报纸上看到过这些报道。

You'll have often seen them people, our Britishers have seen them report in the newspapers.

提案12号、提案13号，还有提案7号，你知道的，这些提案通常旨在限制政府的权力。

Proposition 12, proposition 13, you know, Proposition seven, to change, you know, to basically limit often to limit the powers of government.

最著名的是上世纪70年代的提案13号，它限制了你

The most famous one is Proposition 13 from the 1970s, which limited how much you

能对房产税收取的金额。

could charge on property taxes.

对。

Right.

所以这就是问题的根源。

And so that's why and so that's then the root of the problem.

所以他们缴纳的税不够。

So they don't pay enough tax.

我的意思是，要说服人们多缴税非常困难。

I mean and it's very hard to argue, to persuade people that they ought to pay more tax.

而且我觉得是的。

And and I think yeah.

加利福尼亚政治还有一种古怪之处。

So and there's also an eccentricity in California politics.

一直都有‘月球光束’州长。

There's always been Governor Moonbeam.

是的。

Yeah.

州长月球光显然是杰里·布朗，还有施瓦辛格。

Governor Moonbeam was Jerry Brown, obviously, Schwarzenegger.

施瓦辛格的奇怪之处在于，他实际上是一位非常温和的共和党人。

Now the weird thing about Schwarzenegger was he's actually a very moderate Republican.

所以他其实非常契合加州的政治传统，但当然，你懂的，他是个前奥地利健美运动员，也是《终结者》。

So he's actually quite in tune with California's political history, but, of course, you know, former Austrian bodybuilder, the Terminator.

你知道的。

You know?

有一种微妙的感觉，仿佛他掌控了加州，而这里存在着一种名人政治文化。

There's a slight sense of owning California, and you have this sort of celebrity political culture.

我很高兴你提到《终结者》，因为，在我们结束之前，我们还应该提一下加州建立在圣安德烈亚斯断层上这一事实。

Well, I I'm glad you mentioned the Terminator because, of course, one other thing that we should mention about California perhaps before we finish is, the fact that it's built on San Andres' fault.

因此，这就像在维苏威火山的山坡上建造庞贝城一样，只不过加州人知道，大地震可能即将到来。

And, therefore, it's it's the you know, it's it's like building Pompeii on the slopes of Mount Vesuvius, except that Californians know that the big one may be coming.

我之所以这么说，是因为我妻子当年在1990年地震时住在帕洛阿尔托。

And I I speak as as someone whose wife was in, Palo Alto in the nineteen ninety earthquake.

真的吗？

Really?

她当时住在拖车里。

She was living in a trailer.

天哪。

Gosh.

那可是摄像机。

That's cameras.

那反而是最好的地方。

Which was the best best place to be.

是的。

Yeah.

我能想象。

I can imagine.

她只是站在拖车的正中央，她和朋友们都安然无恙。

She just stood in the middle of the trailer, she and her friends, and they they were they were fine.

有一种感觉，不是吗？由于好莱坞的影响，以及地震的威胁，还有那些袭击旧金山、洛杉矶和这些著名城市的各种灾难性地震，加利福尼亚虽然象征着一种乌托邦式的未来愿景，却也是地球上最反乌托邦的地方。

And there's a sense, isn't there, in which, thanks to Hollywood and thanks to the threat of of of earthquakes and the, you know, the various disastrous earthquakes that have hit San Francisco and LA and all these incredibly famous cityscapes, that California, although it stands in for a kind of utopian vision of the future, is also the most dystopian place

确实如此。

Definitely.

在地球上。

On Earth.

加利福尼亚向我们展示了一幅可能即将到来的恐怖图景。

This is California offers us a vision of of the horrors that may be coming.

无论是《银翼杀手》——可能是有史以来最具影响力的未来愿景——还是那些周期性摧毁加利福尼亚的外星人、龙卷风和海怪。

So whether it's Blade Runner, probably the most influential vision of the future that's ever been made, or whether it's all the aliens and cyclones and monsters from the sea that periodically wipe California out.

我们有一个来自节目朋友史蒂文·詹森的问题。

That so we we've got a question from Steven Jensen, friend of the show.

加利福尼亚是否已成为美国其他地区在文化、经济、政治、技术和人口方面的风向标，预示着未来十年到二十年全国可能呈现的面貌？

Has California become a kind of bellwether state for the rest of The US culturally, economically, politically, technologically, demographically, showing how the rest of the country might look ten to twenty years in the future?

我相信这是真的。

I'm sure that's true.

我不确定。

I don't know.

但我认为，它无疑为我们所有人想象未来提供了一种模板。

But I think definitely it serves as a kind of a template for how the rest of us in the world kind of imagine the future.

确实是。

It is.

我很高兴你提到《银翼杀手》，因为菲利普·K·迪克是一位伟大的加州作家，擅长描绘这种反乌托邦的未来图景。

And I'm glad you mentioned Blade Runner because Philip K Dick is a great Californian writer in these sort of dystopian visions of the future.

我之前也提到过历史学家凯文·斯塔尔，所以对加州感兴趣的人一定要去看看他的书。

And and I've mentioned the historian Kevin Starr earlier on, so people who are interested in California should definitely check out his books.

他强调梦想，但也大量谈论噩梦。

His emphasis on dreams, but he also talks a lot about nightmares.

我不知道是否曾经有哪个地方——我的意思是，你比我更清楚，古典世界的人们是否也曾有过某种特定地点，能体现人类文明的机遇与危险。

And I don't know that there's ever been a place I mean, you'll know better than me whether the the people in the classical world or something ever had a sense of a particular place that embodied the sort of possibility and the peril of human civilization.

所以我认为，加利福尼亚现在在某些方面已经变得更加反乌托邦，而不是乌托邦，你觉得呢？

So California has now become, I think, actually, in some ways more strongly dystopian than utopian, don't you?

我们对加利福尼亚可能代表的意义感到恐惧，而不是像以前那样，当然，我们依然保有这种好莱坞式的浪漫憧憬。

That, we have a sort of a fear of what California may represent rather than a I mean, of course, we still have this sort of Hollywood romantic yearning.

你不觉得现在的恐惧感更强了吗？

Don't you think the fear is stronger now?

我想是因为我们亲历了一个反乌托邦的时代。

I I suppose because we've lived through a a dystopian

时代。

Age.

是的。

Yeah.

时期。

Period.

我们经历了像疫情这样的事情，而这类事件在好莱坞电影里经常发生在加利福尼亚。

We've you know, the pandemic is the kind of thing that that hits California in in Hollywood films.

每个人都说，哦，这就像一部电影。

And that's what everyone said is, oh, it's just like a movie.

这确实像一部电影，因为加利福尼亚的人们一直描绘的未来正是如此。

And it's a movie because people in California have have have been giving portrayals of the future that's exactly like that.

有没有哪个地方曾经像加利福尼亚这样？

What what's about if there's ever been a place like California before?

你认为过去有过类似的地方吗？

Do you think there's ever been anywhere like it?

我觉得，你知道，让我觉得奇怪的是，这些硅谷巨头们竟然缺乏那种应有的自信。要知道，亚历山大、罗马、巴比伦或巴格达这些地方，都是伟大的文化中心，生活在那里的人都觉得自己身处世界中心，并渴望建造能证明这一点的纪念碑。

Oh, I think, I mean, what you know, I say one of the things that that I I found bizarre about the lack of relative lack of swagger about these great Silicon Valley behemoths is that absolutely, you know, Alexandria or Rome or Babylon or Baghdad or whatever, these were great cultural centers that where where people who lived there felt that they were at the center of the world, and they wanted to create monuments that would demonstrate that.

从某种意义上说，加利福尼亚的基础设施和城市空间恰恰缺少了这种气质。

In a sense, that that's kind of what is lacking in the infrastructure, the built up spaces of California.

最著名的那些建筑大多是仿古建筑。

The the lots of the most famous buildings are Ursatz buildings.

无论是赫斯特城堡，还是盖蒂别墅，等等，这些地方的建筑风格在洛杉矶各地都是一种拼贴式的仿古风格。

So whether it's the the the the Hearst Castle or the Getty Villa or whatever, these are you know, the very style of architecture is kind of pastiche, across a lot of LA

或者加利福尼亚。

or California.

所以即使是西班牙复兴风格或殖民复兴风格，也都是拼贴而成的。

So even Spanish revival, of colonial revival stuff is pastiche.

但真正体现加利福尼亚财富与权力的纪念碑，其实是虚拟的。

But the real, you know, the real monuments to to Californian wealth and power, it is is virtual.

我的意思是，它在线上。

I mean, it's online.

就是我们现在正在做的事情。

It's it's what we're doing now.

我们用iPhone、用电脑上的Zoom来录制这段对话，这种方式即使十年前都难以想象，或许两年前都还做不到。

We're we're recording this using iPhones, using Zoom on computers, in a way that would have been unimaginable even ten years ago, even well, I guess even two years ago perhaps.

但我们能这么做，是因为从某种意义上说，我们所做的一切就是加利福尼亚式的，这正是它所树立的纪念碑，我认为。

But we can do that because, in a sense, what we're doing is is Californian, and that's the monument that it's raised, I think.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这是一个完美的结尾。

A greatness on which to end, I think.

我们都生活在一个加州式的世界里。

We're all living in a Californian world.

是的。

Yes.

好的。

Okay.

我们需要回到更久远的时期去思考。

We need to get back to much more distant periods, think.

所以下周，汤姆将推出一期专门关于

So next week, Tom will be waving a podcast just about

我觉得我们正在做的是，我们在做希特勒，

I think we're doing are we doing we're doing Hitler,

我觉得。

I think.

不。

No.

我们在讲希特勒。

We are doing Hitler.

我们没在讲希特勒。

We're not doing Hitler.

不是希特勒。

Not Hitler.

这真的非常反乌托邦。

That really is dystopian.

所以这就是我们正在讲谁？

So that's and we've got who are we doing?

我们正在和伊恩爵士，伊恩·克肖一起讲希特勒。

We're doing Hitler with Ian sir Ian Kershaw.

我们当然在讲希特勒。

We're doing Hitler with of course, we are.

这是我们播客的一个非常激动人心的时刻，因为我认为，部分原因是他还给了我第一份学术工作，他有充分的理由被称为英国在世最伟大的历史学家。

Is a very exciting moment for our podcast because I would say, partly because he gave me my first academic job, I would say he has a very good claim to be Britain's greatest living historian.

所以我非常期待这次访谈。

So I'm very much looking forward to that.

他无疑是英国最顶尖的希特勒传记作者。

And definitely our leading biographer of Hitler.

所以。

So

当然。

Definitely.

值得期待的事情。

Something to look forward to.

但在讨论叙利亚和希特勒之前，汤姆，我们先谈《大宪章》。

But before Syria and Hitler, Tom, we have Magna Carta.

《大宪章》。

Magna Carta.

是的。

Yes.

当然，我们有。

Of course, we do.

来自皇家汉普顿大学的泰德·瓦伦斯教授，我们的朋友，他将告诉我们《大宪章》是否白费了，以及《大宪章》是否重要。

With professor Ted Valens from the University of Royal Hampton, a friend of ours, who will be telling us whether Magna Carta died in vain, whether Magna Carta matters.

他有一个博客叫《大宪章球》，或者至少他曾经有过一个博客。

He's got a blog called Magna Carta Balls, or at least he had a blog.

所以。

So

给你一些提示。

Gives you a clue.

再没有人比他更合适了。

There was no one better.

对。

Yeah.

周四收听关于这个的讨论，下周再来听伊恩·克肖谈希特勒。

Tune in on Thursday to hear that, and tune in next week to hear it's Ian Kershaw on Hitler.

我们还会带来更多相关内容，很快再见。

And, we'll have loads more on that, so we will see you soon.

非常感谢。

Thanks a lot.

再见了。

Cheerio.

拜拜。

Bye.

感谢收听《历史的余音》。

Thanks for listening to the rest is history.

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网址是 restishistorypod.com。

That's restishistorypod.com.