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大宪章对你来说毫无意义吗？
Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you?
她难道是白死了吗？
Did she die in vain?
勇敢的匈牙利农妇，迫使约翰王在伦尼米德签署誓约，并在十点半关闭所有酒馆。
Brave Hungarian peasant girl who forced King John to sign the pledge at Runnymede and close the boozers at half past ten.
这一切都要被遗忘吗？
Is all this to be forgotten?
安东尼·阿洛伊修斯·汉考克在《汉考克的半小时》和《十二怒汉》中的睿智之言。
The wise words of Anthony Aloysius Hancock in Hancock's half hour, 12 angry men.
欢迎来到《历史其余部分》。
Welcome to The Rest is History.
和往常一样，我们从二十世纪五十年代的喜剧作品中汲取灵感。
As always, we take our cues from the comedies of the nineteen fifties.
今天，我们要谈论的是《大宪章》、约翰王，以及那份据称保障了每一位自由英国人权利的文件。
And today, we are talking about Magna Carta, King John, the document that supposedly enshrines the liberties of every freeborn Englishman.
汤姆·霍兰德，你肯定是《大宪章》的忠实粉丝吧？
Tom Holland, you're a big Magna Carta fan, no doubt?
我确实很喜欢《大宪章》，虽然说实话，我觉得这种喜好现在有点不合潮流，因为从我阅读历史学家的观点来看，他们有时会淡化它的意义。
I am quite a fan of Magna Carta, which I I feel is quite an unfashionable thing to be really, because my my sense of, reading historians on it is that they they can sometimes kind of downplay it.
他们嘲笑《大宪章》。
They laugh at Magna Carta.
他们确实会嘲笑《大宪章》。
They do laugh at Magna Carta.
所以我认为我们请来了一位历史学家作为嘉宾，他
And that's why I think we've we've brought on a we've as our guest a historian who
会为我们嘲笑它。
Is gonna laugh at it for us.
不，不会。
Well, no.
他运营过一个叫‘大宪章球’的网站，这或许暗示了他对《大宪章》的看法。
He he ran a website called Magna Carta Balls, which may well imply his view on it.
这位就是唯一的特德·瓦兰斯，罗汉普顿大学的历史学教授，著有《英国激进史》，专攻十七世纪，目前正在撰写一本关于查理一世审判的著作。
And that is the one and only Ted Vallance, professor of history at Roehampton, author of a radical history of Britain, a seventeenth century specialist currently working on a book on the trial of Charles the first.
所以，他对那些不靠谱的君主没什么好感。
So not a fan of dodgy monarchs.
特德，你对约翰王感兴趣吗？
Ted, are you a fan of John?
不感兴趣。
No.
我认为当时很少有人喜欢他，现在也一样。
And I think very few people were or are.
我的意思是，他就是那种君主——也许正有一本为约翰王翻案的修正主义传记即将出版，但我还不知道，但从他那个时代至今，他的评价一直都很差，正如塞勒斯和艾特曼在《十月》及其他著作中所言。
I mean, think he's just one of those monarchs who I mean, maybe there is a revisionist biography of King John about to come out that I don't know about, but it seems like he's got a pretty bad press from his day until the present as Sellars and Eitman put it in October and all that.
他是英国历史上第一个令人难忘的邪恶叔叔，我认为这种负面形象一直延续至今。
He's our first memorable wicked uncle in English history, and I think that reputation has kind of stayed with him.
是的。
Yeah.
泰德，汤姆·霍兰德两周前为尼禄皇帝进行了热情洋溢的辩护，称他是一位奢华、生活自律、热衷战车比赛的君主——我猜你是在睡觉吧。
Ted Tom Holland, two weeks ago presented a rousing defense of the Emperor Nero as an luxurious, clean living, chariot racing I'm gonna say you're sleeping.
一位文艺复兴式的人物。
A renaissance man.
你确实说过他是‘惧内’的。
You you did say it was Uxorius.
我说过这话。
I'd say it.
是的。
Yeah.
这其实到底是什么。
It's really what.
如果你没带着防御性论点来参加这个播客，我会感到非常惊讶。
I I I would be astounded if you haven't come into this podcast arm, tooled up for a defensive control.
我说得对吗？
Am I right?
嗯，我认为我们应该首先把他放在历史背景中来讨论，对吧？
Well, I I think I mean, I think we should put him first of all in his historical context, shouldn't we?
在我们评估他到底有多糟糕之前。
Before we we come on to So his plantation weighing up just how bad he was.
所以是的。
So yeah.
所以，多米尼克，给我们简单介绍一下他。
So he's so so Dominic, give us a a quick skim description of him.
这让我有点措手不及。
That's put me on the spot.
所以。
So
没关系。
it's Okay.
对不起。
I'll sorry.
别待着。
Stay no.
不。
No.
我要去做。
I'm gonna do it.
我要去做，你觉得我没被告知是因为我确实不知道吗？
I'm gonna do do you think do you think I'm not told up because I am?
我
I
我的意思是，我突然意识到这是隐含的，因为我们这里有泰德。
mean Well, I just suddenly realized it was implied because we've got Ted here.
那泰德，你能脱口说出约翰王的在位年代吗？
Well, Ted, do you know King John's dates off of the top of your head?
不能。
No.
罗汉普顿大学的历史教授。
Professor of history at Roehampton.
狠狠地打击我一下。
Strike me hard there.
十一月。
November.
十一月是12月16日。
November is 12/16.
你在读吗
Are you reading
是从一张纸上读的吗？
that off a piece of paper?
他继承了狮心王理查。
He succeeds he succeeds Richard the Lionheart.
他失去了诺曼底。
He loses Normandy.
所以他只当了十七年的国王。
So he's only king for seventeen years.
但泰德和我曾经在谢菲尔德大学共事，我们有一位同事是中世纪历史学家，曾出现在第五频道的一部纪录片系列中。
But Ted and I Ted and I were once colleagues together at the University of Sheffield, and we had a colleague who was a medieval historian who appeared on a channel five documentary series.
我谈到了约翰王，那个系列叫做《历史上最邪恶的人》。
I talked about King John, and it was called the most evil men in history.
这个系列中的人物包括斯大林、希特勒、波尔布特和约翰王。
And the people on this series were Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, and King John.
我觉得这有点苛刻，因为据我所知，约翰是个无能且软弱的国王，他压榨人民敛财，还输掉了几场战役。
And I think that was kind of harsh because as far as I understand it, John was a a poor king and a weak king, and he he he sort of squeezed people for money, and he lost battles.
但说他是邪恶的，我觉得有点过头了，毕竟他跟波尔布特没法比。
But I mean, call him evil is probably a bit I mean, it's not Pol Pot.
我觉得我们大概可以这么说。
I I think we can probably yeah.
与波尔布特相比，他确实算不了什么，我们拿他跟二十世纪的种族灭绝独裁者相提并论，确实有点苛刻了。
I think in comparison to Pol Pot, probably, yeah, he's he's a you you know, we're being a bit harsh on him by comparing him to genocidal twentieth century dictators.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为，如果我们试图公平地看待约翰，我会说他是一位古典意义上的暴君，他按照自己的意愿和想要达成的目标来统治。
And I think sort of I mean, probably if we're trying to be fair to John, I would say that he is a tyrant in the classical sense and that he's somebody who rules according to his will and what he wants to get done.
所以他做了诸如囚禁那些不缴税的人的家人，并让他们饿死这样的事。
And so he does things like imprison members of the family of people who aren't paying him taxes and starves them to death.
你知道的。
You know?
因此，从这个角度来看，他并不是个好人。
So he's not a nice guy from from that perspective.
但是
But
因为那是一对母子，对吧？
because that was a mother and a mother and her son, wasn't it?
是的。
Yes.
科夫城堡。
Corfe Castle.
当他们的遗体被发现时，人们发现母亲吃了儿子的脸颊。
And when their corpses were found, it turned out that the mother had eaten the cheek of her son.
我的意思是，这真是我我
I mean, that's I I
这太邪恶了。
That's pretty evil.
这
That's
相当邪恶。
pretty evil.
但是，汤姆，实际上，你可以说错在母亲，而不是约翰王。
But, Tom, actually, you could argue that's the mother at fault rather than King John.
你能这么说吗？
Can you?
嗯，我知道。
Well, I know.
我觉得，如果你饿了，又没什么别的东西吃的话。
I think I think if you're peckish, you know, you haven't got anything else to eat.
如果你用对待尼禄的标准来衡量，我觉得我
If you're applying the same standards you'd applied to Nero, then I think I
不，尼禄尼禄从来没那样，我的意思是，尼禄杀了他母亲，但他没吃她。
don't Nero Nero never I mean, Nero killed his mother, but he didn't eat her.
抱歉，浪费了我的案例。
Sorry waste my case.
他仍然是，是的。
He's still yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
但我的意思是，约翰的问题是，我的意思是，我认为伦敦政治经济学院中世纪历史荣誉教授约翰·吉林厄姆的评价是，他是个混蛋。
But I mean, John's John's problem but I mean, I think so the the judgment of John Gillingham, emeritus professor of medieval history at the London School of Economics and Political Science, he was a shit.
而且我觉得这是真的。
And and I think that's true.
他显然是一位非常非常令人不快的人。
He he he was clearly a very, very unpleasant man.
我的意思是，他有个可怕的习惯，比如对待伟大的骑士威廉·马歇尔，他是当时最伟大的骑士，始终忠于约翰。
I mean, he had this horrible habit of, say, William Marshall, the great knight errant, the greatest knight of his day, who stands by John through thick and thin.
约翰会走到威廉·马歇尔面前，告诉他他最好的朋友在遥远的战场上阵亡了。
John would go up to to to William Marshall and kind of tell him that his his best friends had died in distant battles.
这些都是编造的。
It would be completely made up.
他这么做只是为了激怒对方。
It would just be done to kind of get a rise out of him.
所以这是一种真正恶劣的行为。
So that's a kind of genuinely horrible thing to do.
这种对待君主的方式，是这样的吗？
Sort of Jack this approach to kingship, is it?
他不得不筹钱，原因是他统治期间最大的灾难——失去了从威廉征服者那里继承下来的庞大法国帝国。威廉是诺曼底公爵，征服了英格兰，而这些领土后来又由他的父亲亨利二世逐步积累，再由他的哥哥、伟大的十字军战士狮心王理查英勇保卫。
That he's he's having to raise money because of the one catastrophe of his reign, which is losing this great empire in France that he's inherited from, well, ultimately from William the Conqueror, who's the duke of Normandy, conquers England, of course, but then the accumulation of other, territories that he's got from his father, Henry the second, and which his brother, the great crusader, Richard the Lionheart, had defended so heroically.
结果约翰却把这一切全丢了。
And then John just loses the lot.
于是，他余下的统治时期几乎都在榨取英格兰——这头巨大的奶牛——的钱财，试图筹集资金。
And so then he is spending the rest of his reign essentially screwing money out of England, this great milch cow, to try and raise cash.
他确实这么做了。
He does that.
他还发动了一次入侵法国的行动，想夺回失地。
He launches, an invasion attempt on France to get his territories back.
而在1214年的布汶战役中，他失败了。
And then at this battle at Beauvin in 12/14, he loses.
这既是对他在战术和指挥能力上的审判，也是来自上帝的审判，因为显然上帝已经审判了他，认为他不足为道。
And that's a judgment both on him as a a tactician, as a commander, but also a judgment on him coming from God because clearly, God has judged him and found him wanting.
而基本上，所有后续事件都由此而来，不是吗？
And basically, everything follows from that, doesn't it?
意思是，《大宪章》的核心就在于他太过压迫了。
Mean, that's what Magna Carta is about is that that he's been so oppressive.
在布汶战败后，他不得不进一步筹钱，是的。
He's now after after Bevin having to raise more money, and Yeah.
人们实在承受不住了。
People just can't face it.
对。
Yeah.
我认为这正是整个背景所在。
I I think it's it that's totally the the context.
这完全是税收不断加码的结果，你知道吗？税收水平是他统治初期的六倍，这种压力让英格兰的精英阶层再也无法忍受，尤其是考虑到约翰遭遇的军事惨败以及领土的丧失。
It's totally this this ratcheting up of taxation, you know, six times the level at the start of his reign, And the pressure of that becomes something that the English elite are no longer prepared to bear, particularly in light of the military disaster that has befallen John and the loss of those lands.
正是在这种背景下，《大宪章》诞生了——本质上是一场内战，反叛的贵族们决定反抗强加在他们身上的沉重税负，并以武力迫使约翰坐到谈判桌前。
And that is the context in which this document Magna Carta is created of effectively civil war with rebel barons basically deciding that they are going resist heavy burden of taxation that's placed upon them and forced John by force of arms to the negotiating table.
这就是我们在1215年6月谈到《大宪章》时的背景。
And that's where we get to with Magna Carta in June 1215.
泰德，这是完全前所未有的事情吗？
And Ted, is that something that's completely unprecedented?
换句话说，这是不是历史上第一次有国王签署文件来限制自己的权力？还是之前有过类似的情况？
So in other words, is this the first time a king has signed up to anything to limit his own power, or have there been instances of this before?
我认为，当历史学家从更广泛的欧洲背景来思考和审视这个问题时，有人提出过类似贵族宪章的存在，这些宪章也对王权施加了类似的限制。
So I think when historians are thinking about this and looking at this in a in a sort of broader European context, I mean, there have been argue arguments that there are kind of similar sorts of aristocratic charters that sort of place in the kinds of burdens on monarchy.
我认为，论点在于《大宪章》的特殊性在于其广泛性，因为它似乎远远超出了单纯的贵族诉求，包含了更广泛的原则。
I think the argument has been that Magna Carta is exceptional because of its breadth and because it seems to go much beyond just being a kind of set of aristocratic demands and includes these broader principles.
我认为，一些最有趣的研究实际上指出，这些关于协议对统治权力具有约束力的原则，在西欧各地其实也是被接受的；早在《大宪章》一个世纪甚至更早之前，就能找到帝国判例，明确指出国王不能随意撕毁协议、没收财产或征税。
And I think some of the most interesting work has actually been to say that in fact those kinds of principles about the binding nature of agreements on rule power are actually things that are accepted across Western Europe as well, that you can find kind of imperial judgments from a century or more prior to Magna Carta, which basically say that the king can't just tear up agreements that are made and seize property and tax people.
必须遵循法律程序。
There has to be a process of law.
事实上，由同侪审判这种观念——显然指的是其他贵族——是整个欧洲普遍遵循的一项原则。
Actually that sort of idea of judgment by your peers, which obviously literally kind of fellow nobles, is something that's a kind of Europe wide principle that's being observed and adhered to.
因此，它未必是这些原则的首次表述，但其范围和规模确实非同寻常，而这实际上又回到了汤姆所谈论的观点，即我们可以将《大宪章》视为一场税收反抗的产物——因为约翰王不断挖掘各种税收漏洞，试图从众多领域榨取钱财，最终形成了一整套国王不得触碰的禁令。
So it's not necessarily the first in terms of statements of these principles, but it is the kind of scope of it, the scale of it, is unusual, which actually connects back to what Tom was talking about in terms of the way in which, you know, we might see Magna Carta as a product of a tax revolt, which is basically that John is kind of looking at so many different tax loopholes and trying to sort of screw money out of so many different areas that it is just this kind of comprehensive suite of things that the king can't do.
你知道，他不能这样随意干涉继承权、监护权，或者森林事务。
You know, he can't fiddle with inheritance in this way or wards in this way or, you know, forests.
宪章里列出的这些他都不能做的事项，本质上都需要被单独划分出来并加以保护。
All these different things he can't do, that the charter is saying, you know, have to be kind of hived off and protected basically.
因为约翰的一个特点，你可以强调的就是他对细节有着惊人的掌控力。
Because one of the things one of John's qualities that you could emphasize would be precisely that he does have this incredible command of detail.
而且，只要有机会赚钱，他就会嗅到并找上门来。
And, you know, if there's a chance to make money, he will sniff it out and come after you.
这正是《大宪章》必须如此详尽的原因——他们想堵住所有漏洞，因为他们根本不信任他。
And that's precisely why Magna Carta has to be so detailed is because they want to block everything off and because they don't trust him an inch.
但但但另一方面，我也要说，约翰之所以坐到谈判桌前，是因为到1215年时，双方陷入了僵局。
But but but also, I mean, John is brought to the negotiating table essentially because by 12:15, there's a stalemate.
真正打破僵局的是，他的敌人占领了伦敦。
And what what brings a stalemate really round is that that his enemies capture London.
没有伦敦，约翰就赢不了。
And without London, John can't win.
但同样，约翰拥有军队、雇佣兵、一切资源以及所有城堡。
But equally, John has, you know, an army, has mercenaries, has everything, has all his castles.
所以贵族们无法取胜。
So the barons can't win.
因此他们决定会面。
So they decide to meet.
我的意思是，温莎基本上算是中立地带。
I mean, Windsor is basically kind of neutral ground.
是吗？
Is it?
我想约翰在温莎确实有一座巨大的城堡，但他们实际在伦尼米德会面，那里是开阔的草地，而且他们在泰晤士河中央的一个岛上会晤。
I suppose John's got a huge castle at Windsor, but they meet at Runnymede, which is meadows open space, and they meet on an island in the middle of the Thames.
这正体现了双方之间有多么缺乏信任。
And that's the measure of how little trust there is between both sides.
是的。
Yeah.
而且双方也都武装着。
And and both camps are armed as well.
正如你所说，他们选择在一个靠近伦敦但又不在伦敦的地方会面，而伦敦现在已被叛军占领。
And they are, as you say, effectively meeting somewhere that is, you know, near to where you know, near to London, but not in London, which is now held by the rebels.
所以这算是一个相对安全的中立地带，但显然双方都不够信任对方，以至于都不敢 unarmed 来参加这次会面。
So it's sort of a a relatively safe neutral zone, but one in which obviously neither side trusts the other enough to come unarmed to this to this meeting.
你听说过安卡维基起义吗？
Have you have you heard of the Ankawicki U?
我没听说过安卡维基起义。
I have not heard of the Ankawicki U.
所以我得去了解一下。
So I visit it I'm to know more.
嗯，我带来
Well, I bring
我提到这个是因为我的朋友杰米·缪尔，泰德，你知道的，是的。
I I mentioned just because my friend Jamie Muir, Ted, who you know Yes.
我们都一起参加过酒吧问答游戏。
We've all done pub quizzes together.
他带我参观了他成长的地方，Ankawicki U位于鲁尼米德的圣玛丽修道院旁边，据说曾经是一座岛。
He he took me on a tour of his places where he grew up, the Ankawicki U is a a U next to Saint Mary's Priory in Runnymede, and apparently, it was on an island.
现在不是了。
It isn't anymore.
非常非常古老。
Very, very ancient.
有一种理论认为，这里就是约翰签署《大宪章》的地方。
And the theory is is that this is where John set the seal on Magna Carta.
这一点争议很大，但我还是提一下，因为这是一个挺有趣的细节。
So highly contested, but I'd just throw that in because it's a kind of interesting detail.
泰德，我们跳过汤姆的精彩细节吧。
Ted, to move on from Tom's fascinating detail.
所以他们就在那里。
So they're there.
他们带着自己的士兵。
They've got their sort of their soldiers with them.
那些贵族们在那里。
There's the barons.
约翰和他的那些亲信们也在。
There's John and his sort of his cronies.
这在多大程度上仅仅是一场精英阶层内部的事务？
How much is this basically in a purely kind of internal elite matter?
这些只是来自社会顶层的人，其他人根本不在乎吗？
That these are just people from this sort of top cast of society, and no one else could give two hoots?
我的意思是，有一种比较愤世嫉俗的观点看待《大宪章》，就是——汤姆提到了我关于《大宪章》的冷门历史观点——这不过是几个富人之间的争吵，是顶层1%的人要求免税的一系列诉求。
I mean, I think there's one sort of, if you like, jaundiced view of Magna Carta, which is just, you know, and and Tom has brought up my Magna Carta balls history, which is just to say this is, you know, a squabbling amongst various rich people, a series of demands from the top 1% for tax exemption.
我们可以这样看待它，但我认为大多数研究这一时期的历史专家都主张，这里发生的事情更广泛、更实质，涉及权利与自由的更深层诉求。
We could view it in that way, but I think most of experts on the period actually argue that there is more going on here, that there is something more broad ranging and substantive about sort of rights and liberties that's being articulated.
而且
And
我认为，苏珊·雷诺兹在她关于《大宪章》欧洲背景的文章中强调的一点是，当男爵们谈论诸如同侪审判之类的事情时，他们实际上是在参与这些普遍认同的原则。
I think actually that's one of the things that Susan Reynolds in her piece on sort of the European context of Magna Carta stresses is that when the barons are talking about things like judgment of peers, they are engaging with these broader kind of agreed principles that are there.
还有，泰德，那个实际上担任调解人、召集这次会议的人——坎特伯雷大主教斯蒂芬·兰顿，他曾是巴黎大学的教授。
And and, Ted, the the guy who's basically the umpire, the guy who's who's kind of convening this conference, Stephen Langton, archbishop of Canterbury, former professor at at Paris University of Paris.
约翰曾与教皇发生过巨大的冲突，关于是否允许他介入。
John's had an enormous run-in with the pope about whether to let him in or not.
基本上，约翰屈服于教皇，让他介入了。
Basically, John's kind of submitted to the pope and let him in.
他的角色有多关键？
How key is his role?
因为显然，他并不是一个中立的调解者。
Because obviously, he's he's not a neutral operator.
他在这里是为了维护教会的利益。
He's there to defend the interests of the church.
对吧？
Right?
是的
Yeah.
我认为，教会在教皇制度中的地位也很重要，因为双方在这些谈判中实际上都在试图获得教皇对他们行动的认同。
And I I think, you know, the position of the church in the papacy is important as well because both sides are actually trying to get this external, approval on their actions from the papacy in these negotiations as well.
所以，无论是反叛者还是约翰——他之前因拒绝承认斯蒂芬·朗顿而被绝罚——现在也都试图争取英诺森三世的支持，让他站在自己这边。
So both the rebels and John John who's previously been excommunicated for his failure to recognize Stephen Langton as well as trying to now get Innocent the third on side to get him on his side.
因为英诺森三世是一位极具影响力的教皇，不是吗？
Because Innocent the third is a pope of kind of enormous sweep, isn't it?
这也说明了约翰有多倒霉，他面对的是一个真正有能力让国王屈服的教皇。
And that's an example of how, in a way, unlucky John is that he's up against the pope who really is in a position to kind of humble kings.
是的
Yeah.
而且这也不仅仅只是英格兰精英阶层的关注点。
And and also that it's not just, you know, this is not just, an English elite concern.
它显然也与法国以及教皇密切相关。
It's a concern that obviously, you know, connects with France as well as with the papacy.
所以约翰不仅要应对这些英国贵族，还要处理其他势力，并与这些外部力量进行谈判。
And so John is not just, you know, dealing with these English barons, he's dealing with these other forces as well and trying to negotiate with these other external forces too.
当然，教会的权利也成为宪章讨论中的一个重要部分。
And of course the rights of the church also become an important part of, you know, the discussions within the charter.
事实上，宪章中至今仍具有法律效力的条款之一，就是保护或名义上保护教会权利的那一条。
And that's actually, you know, one of the one of the, you know, the clauses of the charter that remains in legal force today is the one that protects or notionally protects the rights of the church.
这会非常无聊，还是会非常有趣？
Could could would it be very boring, or would it be very interesting?
我觉得如果我只是
I think it'd very If I just
答案总是很无聊。
The answer is always it's very boring.
如果我只是快速浏览一下《大宪章》的内容。
If I just very quickly skimmed through what Magna Carta says.
嗯，最好了解一下它说了什么。
Well, it'd be good to know what it says.
是的
Yeah.
对
Yeah.
好
Yeah.
我手头有大卫·卡彭特为企鹅经典丛书编辑的版本。
So I've I've got I've got David Carpenter's edition for the Penguin Classics.
这个版本显然是在2015年纪念日时出版的。
Came out, obviously, in in 2015 for the anniversary.
是的
Yeah.
非常好的版本。
Very good edition.
因此它开篇就是：‘约翰，蒙上帝恩典，英格兰国王、爱尔兰领主’，等等等等。
And so it kicks off with John, by the grace of God, King of England, Lord of Ireland, blah blah blah blah.
然后你会看到一份所有人的名单，也就是见证人，首先是教士。
And then you get a list of all the people, the witnesses, and it's the churchmen who come first.
所以有都柏林大主教斯蒂芬·兰顿、教皇特使等等，接着是一长串贵族的名字。
So Stephen Langton, archbishop of Dublin, papal envoy, etcetera, and then you get a list of all the kind of noblemen.
这就是它的开篇方式。
So that's how it kicks off.
正如泰德你说的，第一个条款——这个文件后来被分成了章节，对吧？
And as Ted, as you said, the very first so so this has been divided up into chapters, I think, later on, isn't it?
这是后来的法学家做的划分，原始文件里其实并没有这些章节划分。
It's some later jurist who does this, so it's not actually in the documents.
但第一条说的是英格兰教会应当自由。
But the very first one is saying the English church should be free.
这条至今仍然在法律条文中有效。
And so that's still on the statute book.
这是其中一项内容。
That's one of the one of the things.
然后你会看到大量关于贵族们试图阻止约翰以各种隐蔽方式敛财的内容，而且这类条款多得数不清。
Then you get loads of stuff about basically the barons trying to stop John from raising money in sneaky ways, and you just get loads and loads of them.
这一切都与继承问题有关，
And it's all about So all the inheritance stuff,
对吧？
isn't it?
而且确实如此。
And with yeah.
寡妇不能向你收取结婚费用，
Widows can't can't charge you to marry
嫁给第一个人。
the first person.
是的。
Yep.
还有犹太人，他们是放贷者。
And Jews so Jews are the money lenders.
是的。
Yeah.
约翰，你知道的，正在利用他们来获取现金。
John is, you know, kind of exploiting them to get cash.
所以，他试图控制伦敦。
So there, he's trying to reign oh, and and London.
伦敦，你知道的，站在贵族一边。
So London is, you know, it is siding with the barons.
伦敦城享有所有古老的自由和传统习俗，无论陆上还是水上。
You get and the city of London is to have all its ancient liberties and free customs by both land and water.
所以它是
So it's
只是武力。
only force.
那也是技巧和武力。
That's skill and force as well.
因此，重要的是，显然保留了伦敦城。
So importantly, obviously, preserved the city of London.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为伦敦是《大宪章》中唯一提到的城镇，这反映了它的重要性。
And I think London is the only town mentioned in Magna Carta, so that's a kind of reflection of its importance.
然后就是一大堆内容。
Then just, you know, loads of stuff.
接着你开始看到对人物的提及。
Then you start getting mentions of people.
因此，任何人不得被强制在河岸修建桥梁。
So so no one is to be restrained to build bridges at riverbanks.
我想这并不在法典中，但我的意思是，如果我们将来不得不为鲍里斯在爱尔兰海修建桥梁之类的事情，这或许就相关了。
So I guess that's not on the statute book, but, I mean, that's something perhaps if, you know, we have to start building bridges for Boris over the Irish Sea or something.
这看起来像是一个非常次要的条款，但苏珊·雷诺兹指出，它在更广泛的含义上相当有趣，因为这一条实际上涉及了非自由人的权利。
This this is a this is actually what sounds like a very minor one, but Susan Reynolds points out that it's quite an interesting one in terms of the broader implications because that one is basically saying that, you know, it's one that's even dealing with the rights of the unfree.
它说的是你不能让。
It's saying you can't Yeah.
你知道，别让你的恶棍去建桥之类的。
You know, get get your villains to to build bridges or whatever.
所以它实际上，你知道，现在看来似乎无聊又与我们的兴趣无关。
So it's actually it's actually, you know, as as as boring and and sort of irrelevant to our interest as it seems now.
但它可能实际上揭示了一些关于更广泛含义的有趣内容。
It's maybe one that actually says some interesting things about the broader implications.
等等。
So hold on.
这是一个世界吗？在一个晴朗的日子里，你漫步在小路上，却可能被强行征去建桥？
Is this a world in which in which you were at risk if you sort of, you know, a sunny day, you're wandering down the lane, of being press ganged into building a bridge at
那一刻？
a moment?
当然。
Absolutely.
是的。
Yeah.
这是当时劳工阶层普遍的担忧。
It was a common anxiety of the of the laboring Or or the time.
或者似乎担心有人偷走你的马或马车，因为这也被禁止了。
Or it seems of of having someone nick your nick your horse or cart, because that's also banned.
所以有一种观念认为，约翰可以随便偷走你的车。
So there's this kind of idea that that John could just nick your car.
所以这一点很重要。
So that's that's important.
还有木材。
Oh, and wood.
我们和我们的管家都不得为城堡取用他人的木材。
Neither we nor our bailiff shall take wood belonging to another person for castles.
所以这也被禁止了。
So that's banned as well.
嗯。
Mhmm.
哦，还有鱼梁。
Oh, and fishweers.
我们喜欢鱼梁。
We love we love fishweers.
所以这是第33条。
So that's article 33.
从此以后，泰晤士河和梅德韦河上的所有鱼梁都必须完全拆除。
All fishweers are henceforth to be removed completely from the Thames and the Medway.
那这都是什么意思？
So what's all that about?
约翰是在过度捕捞还是偷别人的鱼？
Is John being basically overfishing or stealing other people's fish?
这显然是坎特伯雷大主教。
That apparently is the archbishop of Canterbury.
他加入这一条是因为他想乘船沿梅德韦河前往他的夏日度假地。
He put that in because he wanted to sail up the Medway to his his summer resort.
所以这有点狡猾。
So that's a that's a bit sneaky.
基于伦敦标准的饮酒量度。
Standard drinking measures based on on London measurements.
所以这一点就在这里。
So that's that's that's there.
然后你还会看到两个至今仍保留在法典中的著名条款，正是它们让《大宪章》在全世界闻名。
And then you get the famous the two famous ones that are still on the statute book, which is really what makes Magna Carta famous across the world.
任何自由人不得被逮捕、监禁、剥夺财产、宣布为罪犯、流放或以任何方式毁损，我们也不会对他采取行动，或派人对他采取行动，除非经过其同等地位者的合法判决或依据国家法律。
No free man is to be arrested or imprisoned or disseised, dis dispossessed of property or outlawed or exiled or in any way destroyed, nor will we go against him, nor will we send against him safe by the lawful judgment of his peers or by the law of the land.
接下来的一条是：我们不会向任何人出售权利，不会拒绝或拖延任何人的正义与权利。
And then the next one, to no one will we sell, to no one will we deny or delay right or justice.
而那就是
And that that's
这种
the kind
从我们的角度来看，我想，这是核心所在。
of from our perspective, I guess, the heart of it.
还有很多关于森林的内容。
Then there's loads of stuff about forests.
我们可能会谈到这个。
We might come on to that.
然后他们显然试图确保约翰无法逃避这份协议。
And then there's a they're obviously trying to to to make sure that John doesn't winkle out of this.
所以有很多内容是关于，如果约翰违反法律，人们可以提出异议，这显然是约翰完全不希望的，但这也表明了人们对他的不信任有多深。
So there's loads of stuff about how, you know, if if John is breaking the law, then people can object, which obviously John didn't want at all, but I guess shows how how, mistrusted he was.
还有很多内容是关于他声称自己要去参加十字军东征的。
There's loads of stuff about him not just he's claiming to that he wants to be on a crusade.
这又是一场骗局。
This again is a scam.
他们试图封锁。
They're trying to block off.
关于威尔士人和苏格兰人的内容很多，这很有趣。
There's loads of stuff about the Welsh and the Scots, which is interesting.
所以，这看起来像一份英格兰文件，但实际上是一种英国文件，对吧？
So it's, you know, sort of as an English document, but it's actually a kind of British one, isn't it?
因为它也涉及了他们。
Because it's kind of dealing with them as well.
他们实际上是反对约翰的这场内战的当事方，因此他们在文件中的存在也就说得通了。
They're parties to this sort of civil war really against John, so that that's their their presence, explained within the chart.
是的。
Yeah.
然后，有一项臭名昭著的条款后来被从宪章的后续版本中删去了，那就是设立25名男爵来监督约翰。
And then and then, kind of a notorious thing that then gets cut, doesn't it, from future editions of the charter, where there are to be 25 barons to to keep watch on John.
对。
Yep.
这对他自身的自主权构成了巨大限制。
So that's a huge restraint on his autonomy.
对吧？
Right?
他身边有一个由贵族组成的委员会监督着他，目的是制约他，是这样吗？
That he's got this kind of commit committee of barons sitting over him to sort of, what, to to hold him in check?
这是否意味着
Is that the
就是这个意思？
the deal?
基本上，这是一个执行条款，这个委员会将负责监督宪章的遵守情况。
Basically, this is a sort of enforcement clause that they this council are going to sort of be there to sort of monitor observance of the charter.
如果约翰没有达到他们的满意标准，他们就有权采取各种措施，没收他的军事资源。
And if John doesn't observe it to their satisfaction, then they have all sorts of rights in terms of seizing his military resources.
还提到可以占领他的城堡等等。
And it talks about possessing his castles and so forth.
我认为，从某个层面来说，这意味着这份文件不会长久有效，因为它从根本上削弱了约翰的权力，由这个男爵委员会来制约他。
I think is one On one level, this is one thing that means that this document doesn't have a long shelf life because it basically means that John's power is fundamentally undercut by this council of barons.
但这也与之前欧洲类似《大宪章》的制度有着真正的区别。
But it's also something that is a real distinction from things that have gone before in these sort of European presidents that we might have for Magna Carta.
这个男爵委员会似乎与当时关于等级、忠诚和服从的公认观念形成了明显背离。
This council of barons seems to be a a real divergence from accepted ideas about hierarchy, about loyalty, about obedience.
这确实似乎是一种新的趋势，表明顶端的统治者如果未能依法施政，其权力是可以被制约的。
This does seem to be something that is moving in a direction where you're saying, actually, you know, the person at the top of the tree can have their power checked if they're not ruling in accordance with the law.
我能插一句，问个很无聊的问题吗？
Can I just dump in and ask a very boring question?
我相信泰德能回答这个问题。
I'm sure Ted will be able to answer.
快点。
Quick.
他们为什么没直接杀了约翰？
Why didn't they just kill John?
是的
Yeah.
我的意思是，这确实是个很好的问题，但我没有一个快速的答案。
I mean, I I think that's that's a that's a very good question, which I don't have a quick answer to.
但我想，是的。
But I I think, yeah.
我的意思是，我想这取决于，这并不是一场有王位继承竞争者的内战，比如玫瑰战争那样，有多个竞争者互相交战。
I mean, I I guess it's a question of, this isn't a civil war in which alternative claimants to the throne are being we're talking of War of the Roses scenario where alternative kind of claimants are parties that sort of, you know, waging war against each other.
这似乎并不是一场以王朝斗争为核心的冲突。
This doesn't seem to be one in which, you know, there's a dynastic struggle at the center of it.
因此，我不认为人们想要彻底推翻这个王朝并用另一个王朝取而代之。
And so I don't think it's the sense that people want to, you know, remove that dynasty and replace it with another one.
但这关乎如何应对约翰，应对一个糟糕的国王，而不是想废除君主制，而是如何限制它的权力。
But it is about dealing with, you know, John's you know, dealing with a bad king, not wanting to, you know, to to replace the monarchy, but sort of how to hedge it in, how to sort of place limitations on it.
但是，特德，那么最终的那段内容，他们处理了我们之间产生的一切恶意、愤恨和敌意。
But but, Ted, what then happens is so so the the final kind of section, they they took all ill will, indignation, and rancour, which has arisen between us.
从这场纷争之时起，我们已完全赦免并宽恕了所有人。
From this time of the Discord, we have fully remitted and pardoned to everyone.
因此，敌意、愤慨和怨恨显然是对约翰品性的总结。
So the ill will, indignation, ranker is obviously a summing up of what John's like.
但显然他并没有坚持下去，一切最终都搞砸了。
But obviously, he doesn't stick to it and it all goes wrong.
当战争再次爆发时，约翰失去了他所有的——他失去了什么？
And as the war breaks out again, John John loses all his what does he loses?
所有珠宝都泡在水里了，或者类似的情况，是的。
All the jewels in the wash or whatever Yes.
在穿越河口时。
Crossing the the estuary.
是的。
Yeah.
随后一场猛烈的风暴来袭，他去世了。
And there's a great storm, and he dies.
还有桃子。
And Peaches.
他吃太多水果了。
He's eating too many fruits.
因为吃了生苹果酒、新苹果酒和生桃子。
From from eating, raw cider, a new cider and raw peaches.
是的。
Yes.
而且作为
And As
你也这样做了。
you did.
遍布世界各地。
All over the world.
所以他留下了一个年幼的儿子，亨利三世。
So So he leaves behind a young son, Henry the third.
但基本上，贵族们决定将王位交给法国国王路易的儿子，而到约翰去世时，他已经占领了大约一半的国土，不是吗？
But basically, the barons have decided that they're gonna hand it over to the son of the king of France, Louis, who who, by the time of of John's death, has seized about half the country, hasn't he?
只有威廉·马歇尔，这位伟大的骑士，在此时已经年迈，而且实际上是《大宪章》中列出的首位贵族。
And it's only William Marshall, the the great knight, who by this point is very old and actually is the first person to be named in the list of p of of of magnates in the Magna Carta.
正是多亏了他，他们才得以击败对手，方法是重新颁布《大宪章》。
It's only thanks to him that they're able to defeat it, and they do that by reissuing Magna Carta.
如果当时没有发生这件事，那么《大宪章》可能就完全被遗忘了。
And and if that hadn't happened, then perhaps Magna Carta would would be completely forgotten.
是这样吗？
Is that right?
是的。
Yeah.
我认为就是这样。
I think that I think that is right.
你知道，我认为亨利三世的《大宪章》才是真正关键的版本，对后世记忆这部文献至关重要。
You know, and I think those the the, Henry the third's Magna Carta is is the really critical one in terms of the memory of this document.
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所以那是12月17日，对吧？
So that's 12/17, isn't it?
12月25日是……嗯，你说得对。
12/25 is the well, there's a think you're right.
确实有一个12月17日的版本。
There is a 12 '17 issue.
因为那个……
There there because
它还附带了一份《森林宪章》，这也非常令人困惑。
that comes out with a charter of the forest, which is also very confusing.
这一切都很复杂，但我们就不深入了，因为太复杂了。
It's all but we won't get into that because that's too complicated.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，没错。
So so yeah.
我认为，那些十三世纪和十四世纪对《大宪章》的重申，对于人们真正记住它至关重要。
And I think those those thirteenth century kind of, you know, and fourteenth century reiterations of Magna Carta are critical to people actually remembering it.
正如你所说，如果当时约翰真的让教皇宣布废除《大宪章》，而贵族们决定改立法国国王的儿子为王，那么我们可能根本就完全忘记这件事了。
As you say, if this had been something where actually, you know, John gets the Pope to nullify, you know, issue decrees that the Magna Carta is nullified and barons, you know, decide to instead install the son of the king of France, then maybe we we completely forget about this instance altogether.
是的。
Yeah.
我们可能该休息一下了。
We should probably have a break.
但简单总结一下，为后半部分我们讨论《大宪章》的后续影响做个铺垫。
But just I mean, basically, just to sum up and to line up the second half where we'll talk about the the, you know, the afterlife of Magna Carta.
这是戈登·史密斯提出的一个问题。
Here's a question from Gordon Smith.
《大宪章》的意义在于国王承认自己受制于国家法律，而非凌驾于法律之上吗？
Is the point of Magna Carta that the king recognizes that he is bound by the laws of the land rather than being above them?
否则，它的意义何在？
Otherwise, what is its significance?
我的意思是，这是否就是我们需要牢记的关键因素，还是我们对此过于浪漫化了？
I mean, is that essentially the key the key factor to bear in mind, or are we being over romantic about that?
不，我认为我们并没有，但我觉得这只是其中的一个收获。
No, I don't think we are, but I think that's only one of the takeaways from it.
我认为另一个——实际上是多个——重要方面是关于普遍的自由和个人的自由。
I think the other one is, well, are several, but I think another really important one is actually about liberty in general and and and freedom of the individual.
我认为，这也是《大宪章》带来的另一个关键点。
And that's that's another critical thing, I think, that comes from Magna Carta.
哦，这说法太浪漫了。
Oh, that's very romantic test.
不是吗？
Isn't it?
是的
Yeah.
对
Yeah.
自由
Liberty.
太好了
It's great.
太好了
It's great.
该歇会儿了，真是个不错的结尾。
What a note on which to go to a break.
非常好
Very good.
自由
Liberty.
我们很快就会再见到你们。
We'll see you back soon.
欢迎回到《历史其余部分》。
Welcome back to The Rest is History.
我们正在谈论《大宪章》。
We're talking about, Magna Carta.
我们已经送走了约翰王。
We have seen off King John.
伟大的编年史家马修·巴黎评价他：‘即使地狱已经够污秽了，但约翰的存在让地狱更加污秽。’
Matthew Paris, the great chronicler said of him, foul as it is, hell itself is made fouler by the presence of John.
希望没人会用类似的话评价《历史其余部分》和泰德·瓦兰斯在我们播客中的出现。
Let's hope no one says that about The Rest is History and the presence of Ted Vallance on our podcast.
那么，我们已经讲完了《大宪章》。
Now we so we've done Magna Carta.
我们讲了约翰王，接下来要讲它的后世影响，我认为这在很多方面是一个更引人入胜的故事。
We've done John, and we're gonna do its afterlife, which I think is in in many ways a more fascinating story.
你写过很多关于这个话题的内容，泰德。
Something you've written a lot about, Ted.
我们收到了西蒙·霍奇的一个问题。
And we've got a question from Simon Hodge.
他说，人们何时开始将《大宪章》从精英权利的文件，转变为更广泛的英国权利概念？
And he says, at what point did the perception of Magna Carta move from being about the rights of an elite to a more generalized conception of English rights?
这种转变有道理吗？
And does that shift have any merit?
我想这正是个关键问题，不是吗？
And I guess that's the big question, isn't it?
所以，当人们今天在报纸上谈论《大宪章》时，他们谈论的是一个几百年前才被虚构出来的想象中的《大宪章》吗？
So when people talk about Magna Carta today in the newspapers, that's are they talking about an imaginary Magna Carta that was basically invented hundreds of years afterwards, do you think?
我认为，某种程度上，如果他们谈论的是比如在封锁期间捍卫开放儿童游乐场的权利，那确实是在谈论一个虚构的《大宪章》。
I think that, to some extent, talking about an imaginary Magna Carta if they're talking about, you know, defending the right to open soft play areas during lockdown, for example.
这并不是一个问题，
That's not an issue,
是吗？
is it?
我认为这不属于成文法。
I think That's not one of statutes.
但我们确实如此。
But we we yeah.
鱼翅，是的。
The fish whiz, yes.
软play区，不行。
Soft play areas, no.
但我们可能会稍后再回到软play区，我希望如此。
But but we might come back to soft play areas, I hope, later on.
但我认为，确实存在一个真实的部分，即《大宪章》在权利与自由观念从精英阶层扩展出去的过程中，扮演着重要而真实的作用。
But I I think that there is there is something genuine, you know, that there there is a genuine part that Magna Carta has to play, an important part that Magna Carta has to play in the development of the idea of rights and liberties extending beyond the elite.
这实际上始于1215年的宪章本身，当然也包括十三世纪及之后十四世纪对《大宪章》的多次重申。
And that's something that actually starts, you know, we can argue that it actually starts with the twelve fifth 15 charter itself, but certainly in the thirteenth century and on into the fourteenth century kind of reiterations of Magna Carta.
所以在《大宪章》中，他们谈论的是自由人，Liber Homo。
So in the in the in Magna Carta, they they talk about the free man, Liber Homo.
所以
So
那么显而易见的问题是，那些非自由人是谁？
that obviously, the question then is, who are the unfree men?
他们有多少人？
How many are there?
到什么时候每个英格兰人都能——我想应该是英格兰男性而非女性，对吧？
And by what point can every Englishman and I suppose it's Englishmen rather than women, is it?
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
成为自由人。
As free.
这个过程是什么？
What's what's the process?
是的。
Yeah.
所以，我的意思是，从被定义为男性这一点来看，这确实没有改变。
So, I mean, yes, in terms of it being, you know, defined as as men, that's something that doesn't change.
尽管我不知道我们是否会谈到这一点，但女性参政权倡导者曾指出，英国法律通常将阳性代词普遍化使用。
Although, I don't know whether we're going to come onto it anyway, but women's suffrage campaigners did point out that the English law generally uses, interprets masculine pronouns universally.
因此，《大宪章》的权利也被认为适用于女性和男性。
And so Magna Carta rights have been seen to apply to women as well as to men.
但在十三和十四世纪期间，宪章语言中自由与非自由的区分开始被弱化，甚至被消除。
But one of the things that happens over the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries, this distinction between free and unfree in the language of the charter starts to be watered down and actually obliterated.
它只是开始使用‘男性’而非‘自由男性’来表述。
It just starts to talk about men instead of free men.
因此，那些关于剥夺权利或正义的条款——那些至今仍具有法律效力的有力条款——逐渐被赋予了更普遍的含义。
So these clauses about denying right or justice, those really evocative ones, the ones that still have power of law today come to have this more universal meaning attributed to them.
正如我所说，这是中世纪时期发生的事情。
And that's, as I say, that's something that's happening in the medieval period.
这并不是现代的重新发明。
It's not a modern reinvention.
这是十三、十四世纪反复重申和确认《大宪章》过程中的一部分。
It's something that is a part of what's going on with these reissuing confirmations of the Charter over the thirteenth, fourteenth century.
与此同时发生的另一件事是，它不仅仅在精英阶层中传播，还被颁布并广泛应用于法庭。
The other thing that's happening as well is it's not just sort of a document that is being circulated amongst the elite, it's also something that is going out, being confirmed, circulated in courts of law.
因此，它也拥有了更广泛的受众和更广泛的接受度，从而在更深层次上融入了国家文化。
So it's also got a kind of broader audience to it and a broader kind of reception to it as well so that it's getting embedded in a broader sense in in terms of the national culture.
泰德，我还可以问一下，大宪章是否阻止了约翰用来筹钱的所有那些手段？
And, Ted, also, can I just ask the so Magna Carta blocks off all these wheezes that John has been using to raise money?
那么，在随后的几十年乃至几个世纪里，议会兴起、国王必须求助议会筹款，这难道是巧合吗？
So is is it a coincidence that it's in the the the decades and then the centuries that follow that you start to get the rise of parliament and the idea that the king has to turn to parliament to raise money?
从这个意义上说，尽管大宪章并未提及议会，但它是否可以被视为影响英国议会制度发展的关键因素之一？
So in that sense, is Magna Carta, although it doesn't mention parliament, could it be considered, you know, one of the kind of key influences on the growth of the parliamentary system in England?
是的。
Yeah.
我认为是的，就你所说的那种对君主征税权力的制约而言，这显然是中世纪和早期现代议会最关键的功能之一。
I I think so in terms of that, you know, the the the as you say, in that kind of check on rule power to raise money, which is obviously one of the critical things, the critical functions of the medieval and early modern parliament.
而1215年宪章所体现的，正如你所说，尽管当时这个机构尚未存在，也没有使用相关语言，但后来人们逐渐将其视为其中一项重要内容。
And one of the things that then comes to be seen as you know, one of the things that that charter of 12/15 is embodying, even as you say, doesn't actually, you know, use the language of this institution at this stage isn't in existence.
是的。
Yeah.
泰德，如果这是一个关键的转折点，我的感觉——也许我错了——是它大约出现在17世纪，那时《大宪章》真正被确立为英国自由的奠基性文本。
And Ted, if it's a crucial turning point, my sense, and maybe I'm wrong, is that it comes around about the seventeenth century when when Magna Carta really becomes enshrined, as this sort of people start to argue that it's the foundational text of kind of English liberty.
对吗？
Is that right?
是不是在内战时期、护国公时期，人们开始将《大宪章》与‘良善旧事业’联系起来？
Is it sort of in the era of the civil war and and the sort of the protectorate and sort of the idea of Magna Carta being linked to the kind of good old cause?
是我自己想多了吗？
Is am I am I making that up?
不。
No.
我认为它在议会的修辞以及那些反对查理一世个人统治（1620年代）和随后1640年代内战的人们的话语中具有极其重要的地位。
I I think it's it is incredibly important in the rhetoric of parliament and those who are resisting Charles the first personal rule Charles I's government in 1620s and then during the civil war in the 1640s.
有一种观点认为，真正重新塑造《大宪章》的是17世纪英国普通法法学家爱德华·科克爵士，他以极为崇高的言辞将《大宪章》称为所有基本法律的源泉。
And there was an argument that really Magna Carta is really reinvented in the seventeenth century primarily by the English common law jurist Sir Edward Cook, who talks about Magna Carta in these glowing terms as the fountain of all the fundamental laws.
那么他是什么时候这样做的？
So when is he doing that?
这体现在他于1642年死后出版的《法律要义》中，但他实际上早在更早之前就已撰写完成。
So this is in his institutes which are posthumously published in 1642, but he's written much earlier.
而且，他本人实际上也是专制权力的受害者——正是查理一世及其政府压制了《法律要义》的出版，因为他们认为这部著作是一种具有政治危险性的文本，它明确提出了对王权的限制。
And and actually he is himself a victim of of of raw power and that it's actually Charles the first and his government that suppresses the publication of the institutes because they see it as a kind of politically dangerous text as one that's sort of laying out limitations on the whole power.
所以1642年，内战爆发，你面对的是一位像约翰王一样，不断使用各种征税手段的国王。
So 1642, start of the civil war, and you have a king who, like John, has been resorting to all kinds of taxation wheezes.
他随后遭遇了民间的反抗，并失去了伦敦。
And he was then faced by civil opposition, and he loses London.
是的。
Yes.
那么，这些类比是否在有力地强调着？
So were these analogies that were pressing home
所以是1640年代。
So there are the sixteen forties.
确实有一些，是的。
There are there are some yeah.
我的意思是，那里确实有一些非常鲜明的相似之处。
I mean, there are some fairly stark parallels there.
我的意思是，查理实际上并没有经常被直接比作约翰，尽管你之前听过《其余皆为历史》这个播客。
I mean, you you I I don't think actually Charles gets compared to John personally that much, although you're subject to the previous, rest is history podcast.
他被比作尼禄。
He has he was compared to Nero.
哦，
Oh,
阿克图里乌斯。
the Acturious.
是的。
Yes.
为了他的无情。
For his mercilessness.
是的。
Yes.
没错。
Exactly.
作为一名奢华的散文家。
Being an luxurious essay.
没错。
That's right.
因此，这在1640年代的政治话语中占据重要地位，并且我认为，它在1640年代也被以更广泛的方式引用。
So it is very much part of the political discourse of the 1640s, and it's something which is being invoked, I think, in even broader ways in the 1640s too.
所以，如果你看看平等派约翰·利尔本如何使用《大宪章》，他会开始将《大宪章》视为体现与生俱来的权利。
So if you look at the way in which the leveler John Lilburn uses Magna Carta, he starts to talk about Magna Carta as embodying birthrights.
《大宪章》本质上是在提炼英国人的固有权利。
Magna Carta is basically distilling the innate rights of the Englishman.
自由出生的英国人的权利被写入了《大宪章》之中。
The freeborn Englishman's rights are written within Magna Carta.
因此，我们某种程度上看到《大宪章》从一份文件扩展为自由出生的英国人固有权利的体现。
So we kind of get this extension of Magna Carta from this document into something that is an embodiment of the the innate birthrights of of of the freeborn Englishman.
所以在那时，像约翰·利尔本和平等派这样的人，我们之前讨论过他们，对吧，汤姆和我？
So at that point, people like John Lilburn and the levelers, so we talked about them, didn't we, Tom and I
是的。
Yeah.
从
From
威廉播客。
William podcast.
所以那时候，他们谈论的是一种存在于他们想象中的《大宪章》吗？
So at that point, are they talking about a Magna Carta that exists in their imagination, basically?
我的意思是，他们读过它吗？
I mean, have they read it?
他们了解所有关于韦尔斯的内容吗？
Are they aware of all the stuff about the Weirs?
还是说他们只是发明了这种想象中的《大宪章》，认为它体现了某种反诺曼枷锁的盎格鲁-撒克逊传统？
Or are they just or are they just have they just invented this sort of imaginary Magna Carta that they think enshrines this sort of, you know, anti Norman yoke Anglo Saxon.
但诺曼枷锁，这难道不是另一回事吗？
But the but the Norman yoke, I mean, that's that's separate again, isn't it?
还是说它是一回事？
Or is it the same thing?
因为
Because
嗯，不是。
Well, no.
它们是紧密联系在一起的。
They're they're bound together.
为了回答你的问题，汤姆，他们并不是凭空捏造的，因为利尔本是从库克的《法律 Institutes》中获取《大宪章》的内容，他如饥似渴地阅读这部著作，其中详细阐述了英格兰人通过普通法所享有的各项权利与自由，而《大宪章》正是这些权利与自由的核心文献之一。
And and, you know, to to to answer, you know, your your question, Tom, they're not making it up in the sense that Lilburn is getting his Magna Carta from Cook's Institutes, which is reads this voraciously as this text which is detailing all of the rights and liberties that English people enjoy through the common law, Magna Carta being one of the fundamental documents and distillations of this.
他还采纳了库克对《大宪章》的看法，即《大宪章》并非新法。
He's also taking Cook's view of Magna Carta, which is that Magna Carta is not new law.
《大宪章》是对基本法律的重申。
Magna Carta is a is a restatement of fundamental laws.
这可以追溯到盎格鲁-撒克逊时期。
Which goes back to the Anglo Saxon
是的。
Yes.
当然。
Absolutely.
在他看来。
In his view.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
所以，你知道，这个诺曼枷锁，那些征服者引入的法律。
So so, you know, this Norman yoke, you know, the the the conquerors laws that are are introduced.
《大宪章》是对那些更早的盎格鲁-撒克逊自由与权利的一种重申。
Magna Carta is a kind of reaffirmation of those those earlier Anglo Saxon freedoms and liberties.
这就是《大宪章》的主张吗？
That's the Magna Carta ball?
是的。
Yes.
但这显然不对，不是吗？
Because that's clearly not true, is it?
我的意思是，《大宪章》跟盎格鲁-撒克逊人古老的自由根本没关系。
I mean, Magna Carta has nothing to do with with ancient liberties of Anglo Saxon free No.
不。
No.
但那也是《大宪章》吧？我这么想没错吧，泰德？那部《大宪章》不是也去了美国吗？
But that's also the Magna Carta am I not right in thinking, Ted, that that is also the Magna Carta, though, that has gone to America?
所以，那些对美英或英美历史交织感兴趣的人，都非常热爱《大宪章》。
So the Americans who are interested in the the sort of intermingled American and and English or British history, they love Magna Carta.
美国律师协会出资赞助了那种……流质肉制品，对吧？
The American Bar Association paid for, know, the sort of runny meat stuff, didn't they?
他们一直对这个很着迷。
And they've always been fascinated by that.
他们的《大宪章》在某种程度上，是17世纪版本的《大宪章》，而不是1215年韦尔版本的《大宪章》。
And their Magna Carta is, in some ways, it's the seventeenth century kind of level of Magna Carta rather than the the 12/15 Weir's Magna Carta.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
当然。
Certainly.
我的意思是，我认为，是的，正是《大宪章》据说保障了‘无代表不纳税’的原则。
I mean, I think, yeah, it's it's the Magna Carta that supposedly guarantees no no taxation without representation.
是《大宪章》保障了代议机构的权利。
It's the Magna Carta that, you know, guarantees the rights of representative assemblies.
而且，当然不是那种关于强迫人们修建桥梁的《大宪章》。
And, yeah, definitely not the Magna Carta that's sort of about preventing people from being forced to build build bridges.
不过，我的意思是，如果一位美国总统强迫美国人去修桥，我敢肯定我们不会就此罢休。
Although, I mean, I I if if an American president forced Americans to build bridges, I'm sure we wouldn't hear the end of
的。
it.
我正在
I'm getting
为这件事拿出《大宪章》。
Magna Carta out for that.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
它对美国人的宪法观念有什么样的影响呢？
And does it have an what kind of influence does it have on the idea of a constitution for for the Americans?
它是否真的有影响，还是只是潜藏在他们心中？
Is does it have any influence at all, or is that lurking at the back of their minds?
对。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我认为它确实对美国宪法的某些部分，特别是第五修正案，产生了直接影响。
I mean, I think it's seen as, you know, a literal influence on on parts of the American constitution, in particular, the Fifth Amendment.
所以，我的意思是，那就是
And so, I mean So that's that's
不得自证其罪。
not giving evidence against yourself.
是这样吗？
Is that right?
是的。
Yes.
对。
Yeah.
谈谈第五修正案的事。
Take the Fifth thing.
是的。
Yeah.
因此，类似这种直接的影响也体现在《世界人权宣言》中，当然，通过与英国的关联，还影响了印度宪法、加拿大宪法以及各种其他英联邦国家的宪法。
So and and and similar kinds of, you know, direct influences have been seen in Universal Declaration of Human Rights and also, obviously, through, you know, their connections to to Britain, the Indian constitution, Canadian constitution, various other Commonwealth countries, their constitution.
因此，它确实对全球各地的宪法以及关于个人权利与自由的重要宣言产生了真实的影响。
So it has had a genuine influence on constitutional constitutions across the world and upon important statements of, you know, individual rights and liberty.
因为你看，泰德，我本来以为你一上来就会说这全是胡扯。
Because you see, Ted, I was I was so convinced you were gonna just come on and say it's all it's all bunkers.
但你一直在谈温斯顿·丘吉尔。
It's all but you're you're going on Winston Churchill.
那
That
抱歉。
is Sorry.
是的。
Yeah.
和人们交谈。
Speaking to people.
我喜欢这个。
I love it.
我喜欢这个。
I love it.
对。
Yes.
我有，我实际上已经
I I I have it I've actually got
纹在我的身上，如果我
it tattooed on my if I
要是打开这件衬衫，我会但请
had to open this shirt, I'd But do
你知道他让你想起谁吗？
know who do you know who he reminds me of?
在八十年代初，玛格丽特·撒切尔带劳伦斯·范德普特参观了唐宁街，向他展示了所有的房间和相关设施。
So in the early eighties, Margaret Thatcher gave Lawrence van der Post came to Downing Street, she showed him around Downing Street, showed him all the buses and stuff.
她还说，她作为英国人最欣赏的一点是，当你走进酒吧时，会听到人们谈论《大宪章》、人身保护令和自由英国人的权利。
She And said that what she really liked about being British was that if you went into the pub, you would hear people talking about Magna Carta and habeas corpus and the rights of the freeborn Englishman.
我从没想过我会这么说，但泰德在这个播客里简直就是玛格丽特·撒切尔。
And I never thought I would say this, but Ted is basically Margaret Thatcher in this podcast.
所以你真的很喜欢所有关于个人自由的东西，而且
So you really you you love all that stuff about individual liberty, and and,
这太非凡了。
it's extraordinary.
是的。
Yeah.
绝对如此。
Absolutely.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
你觉得呢？哦，说吧，泰德。
And what do think oh, go on, Ted.
嗯，我本来想说，你知道，正如托马斯指出的，我确实花了一些时间在某个博客上，虽然现在已经不再更新了，但那时我经常谈论《大宪章》之类的话题，我觉得这些所谓的反封锁运动中对《大宪章》的种种引用，正好符合那种描述。
Well, I was gonna say, you know, I think, you know, as Thomas pointed out, I I did spend some time on a blog that I no longer keep up sort of talking about Magna Carta balls and sort of, you know, and I think some of these kind of anti lockdown, you know, sightings of of Magna Carta would fit neatly into that description.
但我觉得，你也知道，我也不希望贬低这份文件的重要性，或者它所影响和支持的个人自由这一理念的重要性。
But I I think on you know, I I also don't want to kind of poo poo the significance of this document either and or or, you know, the the the importance of the idea of individual liberty that it that is influenced and that it supports.
而且我认为，从所有反封锁的言论中，真正值得吸取的一点是——首先，我认为封锁是一项重要的公共卫生措施，已经发挥了作用，
And I think actually if there's one thing to kind of take away from all of the anti lockdown stuff, and I would say first of all, just I think lockdowns are important public health measure that have had
但必须实施，
to be put in place, but
但在这背后，真正重要的是：在英国，政府在紧急情况下为应对自认为必要的事务时，其行政权力受到哪些限制？
I think there is an important thing underneath this, which is actually what limitations are there on the executive power in The UK to do certain things that it deems to be necessary in an emergency?
这之前曾因战争时期《国防法案》而出现过，当时这些法案如何影响了个人自由。
This is something that's come up before in terms of statutes, know, defense of the realm acts during during the two world wars and how those impinged upon individual liberties.
那么，政府在做这类事情时，究竟有哪些制约机制呢？
And, you know, what are the barriers to a government doing that, basically?
因为贝桑的匿名者们取的名字太棒了。
Well, because the anonymous of Bethune make fabulous names.
好的。
Okay.
一位匿名编年史家曾跟随贝瑟恩公爵的随行队伍，称约翰王是个非常恶劣的人。
Anonymous chronicler who rode in the the train of whatever it was, the duke of Bethune or whatever, said of of King John that he was a very bad man.
只要有机会，他就宁愿说谎也不说真话。
And whenever he could, he told lies rather than the truth.
所以我认为《大宪章》的关键在于，试图阻止那些说谎而非说真话的恶人肆意妄为。
So I guess the key to Magna Carta is to try and stop bad men who tell lies rather than the truth from having their evil way.
这将是《大宪章》持久不变的视角。
That would be that would be the the enduring perspective of of Magna Carta.
或许在2021年，这一点和1215年时同样重要。
And perhaps, you know, in in 2021, that's just as important as it was in in 12/15, you can say.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
完全正确。
Absolutely.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我们已经探讨了《大宪章》对美国和各个英联邦国家的影响。
So the the the we've looked at at the influence of Magna Carta on America and on various Commonwealth countries.
但英国本身呢？
But what about Britain itself?
那么，从十七世纪到2021年《大宪章》在封锁争议中的运用，这条传承脉络究竟是怎样的？
So what's what's the kind of line of inheritance that takes us from the seventeenth century through to 2021 and the use of Magna Carta in lockdown disputes?
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，它至今仍深深植根于英国，部分是因为十七世纪那场巨大的讨论，也因为它在中世纪晚期的广泛传播。
I mean, it still has I think it's it's got so embedded partly as a result of this, you know, enormous discussion in the seventeenth century, but also, you know, as a result of its late medieval circulation.
它已深深融入英国的历史记忆之中，甚至在十八世纪仍被激进人物不断援引。
It's got so embedded in in kind of, the English kind of historical memory that is continuing to be invoked by radical figures in the eighteenth century.
约翰·威尔克斯在他的新闻自由运动中引用了它。
John Wilkes refers to it in his kind of campaigns for press freedom.
它也在十八世纪末和十九世纪初的激进运动中被援引。
And it also gets invoked by radical movements in the late eighteenth and and early nineteenth century.
因此，伦敦通讯协会的成员们引用《大宪章》作为他们争取男性普选权的依据，十九世纪的宪章派也是如此。
So the London Corresponding Society members, you know, refer to Magna Carta as as giving them the sort of authority for their campaigns for manhood suffrage and the same with the Chartists on into the nineteenth century.
我认为这里涉及几件事情。
And I think there's, you know, there's a few things here that are going on here.
一是《大宪章》作为宪法文件和参考点的显著地位。
One is actually just the sort of the prominence of Magna Carta as a constitutional document and as a reference point.
但另一点是，《大宪章》在修辞上的价值。
But the other thing is actually also rhetorically the value of something like Magna Carta.
我认为这一点在现代对它的援引中也能看到：如果你想主张这些权利，而这些权利本就是你的——因为你生来就是自由的英国人，或者你是一名英国公民，那么《大宪章》就是一个非常有用的参考依据。
And I think this is something you can see in modern invocations of it as well, that Magna Carta is a really useful reference point if you want to say, I'm arguing for these rights, and they are my rights anyway because I am a freeborn Englishman or I am, you know, a British citizen.
因此，你不必说：我需要这些，是因为法国革命者在争取它们，从而可能被贴上不爱国的标签，或被指责对恐怖事件负有责任，或其他类似的风险。
So you don't have to say, I need these things because the French revolutionaries are arguing for them and, you know, therefore, you know, run risk of being declared unpatriotic or run risk of being declared responsible for the terror or any of those other things.
你可以把自己描绘成一个正统的约翰·布尔传统主义者，因为这些权利都体现在《大宪章》中。
You can paint yourself as a good, authentic John Bull traditionalists in arguing for these things because these things are embodied in Magna Carta.
对。
Right.
因此，我认为，几个世纪以来，它一直是一种非常有用的修辞工具，用于推动政治改革和宪政变革。
So it's a it's a really useful, I think, rhetorical tool has been over over centuries for movements for kind of political reform and constitutional change.
因为这正是戴维·戴维斯和托尼·本之间交汇的节点，对吧？
Because it was the kind of intersection point between David Davis and Tony Ben, wasn't it?
那是什么？
What was it?
是四十八天的拘留吗？
There was forty eight to ten forty eight day detention?
四十八天的拘留。
Forty eight days detention.
是的。
Yes.
这发生在布莱尔政府时期。
And that's under the Blair government.
是的。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
而且，这是否被用来象征《大宪章》的死亡？这又是一个有趣的历史回响，因为在十八世纪末和十九世纪初，人们也曾类似地谈论废除人身保护令，部分原因是对伦敦通讯社等团体活动的反应。
And and was it, you know, invoked to sort of, you know, the in the death of Magna Carta, which again is an interesting historical echo because very similar things are said about revocation of habeas corpus in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth centuries, partly in reaction to the activities of groups like the London Corresponding Society.
你觉得随着英国脱欧，以及退出欧洲法院之类的事情，《大宪章》作为英国司法与自由象征的意义会再次上升吗？
And do you think with, with with Brexit and perhaps the withdrawal from, you know, European Court of Justice and all that kind of thing Yeah.
你认为，随着英国脱欧和退出欧洲法院之类的事情，《大宪章》作为英国司法与自由象征的意义会再次提升吗？
Will this will the significance of Magna Carta as a kind of totem of English justice and liberty increase again, you think?
是的。
Yes.
我觉得，正因为这种认为这是属于我们独有的东西的感觉，使得人们对它的重视再次提升，而不是在诉诸某种空洞的自然权利或普世价值之类的 nonsense。
I think I think that has sort of, you know, heightened the emphasis upon it again because of this sort of sense in which this is something that is uniquely ours, and it's not you know, we're not kind of invoking some kind of airy fairy concept of natural rights or, you know, universal I see nonsense.
自由。
Liberty.
他们都挺怪的。
It's all they're weird.
这些确实是实实在在的，你知道的，
These these are these are these are real, you know,
实际的关切。
practical concerns.
英国的边境问题。
British bordering.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得我们基本上已经放大了。
I think we I think we've basically done magnifying.
我们确实这么做了。
We have done it.
我
I
我想我们还有一个最后的问题。
think we have one one last question.
所以，是的。
So Yeah.
一共有四份副本。
There are four there are four copies of it.
所以并没有一个所谓的原始版本，对吧？
So there's no there's no one kind of master version, is there?
只是有很多份，它们都具有同等地位，可能都被发送到了大教堂或其他地方。
There were just loads that were all of equal status, and they all got sent out perhaps to cathedrals or whatever.
大英博物馆有两份，大英图书馆有两份，林肯有一份，索尔兹伯里有一份。
So there are there are two in the British Museum, British Library, two in the British Library, one in Lincoln, and one in Salisbury.
哪一份是最好的？
Which is the best?
那么哪个是最好的，为什么是索尔兹伯里呢？
So which is the best, and why is it Salisbury?
嗯，汤姆，我觉得我应该让你来论证这个观点。
Well, I think, Tom, I should I should let you argue that argue that point.
是的。
Yeah.
就是索尔兹伯里那份，各位。
It's Salisbury, guys.
我见过林肯那份。
I've seen the Lincoln one.
我觉得
I think
我认为林肯那份不是最古老的吗？
I think I think the Lincoln is the Lincoln one not the oldest?
是我记错了吗？
Have I made that up?
是的。
Yeah.
它们都一样。
They're all the same.
我的意思是，我认为肯定是林肯。
I mean, I think it's definitely Lincoln.
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
我觉得是，就这样。
I think it's There we go.
我觉得这个问题
I think the I think question
在索尔兹伯里。
is in Salisbury.
这关乎人们的问题。
It's on the question of folks.
泰德是专家，而且泰德在做展示。
Is Ted is the expert and Ted is presenting.
林肯，我承认林肯的后世经历最有趣，因为我觉得它在二战期间被送到了美国。
Lincoln, I I what I will grant to Lincoln is it's had the most interesting afterlife, Cause I think it got sent to America during the second world war
作为一种方式，是美国吗？
as a way of kind of Was it America?
是的。
Yeah.
然后它就留在那里了，我想。
And it got stuck there, I think.
后来它差不多到了澳大利亚，最后才勉强回到林肯。
And kind of ended up in Australia and he just made it back to Lincoln by the skin of his teeth.
真是怎样的一个
What a what
一个幸福的故事。
a happy story.
什么？
What
一个故事
a story
充满巨大危险却有美好结局的故事。
of terrible jeopardy and and a nice resolution.
但萨尔isbury的那一个自始至终都在那里。
But but the the one in Salisbury has been there the whole way through.
所以从某种意义上说，它是最正宗的。
So in a sense, it's the most true born.
我明白了。
I see.
好的。
Alright.
别闹了，安东。
Stop it, Anton.
所以我认为这是一个很好的结束方式。
So think I that's a good note on which to end.
非常感谢你参与节目，真的不是开玩笑。
Thank you so much for coming on and No kidding.
我们的一切都关于《大宪章》是正确的。
Us everything was right about Magna Carta.
所以我们决定，《大宪章》的牺牲没有白费。
So we have decided Magna Carta did not die in vain.
感谢泰德，我们下次再见，继续带来另一个精彩的历史片段。
And thank you to Ted, and we will see you all next time for another fascinating glimpse of of history.
再见。
Goodbye.
拜拜。
Bye bye.
谢谢
Thanks
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for listening to The Rest is History.
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网址是 restishistorypod.com。
That's restishistorypod.com.
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