63. 希特勒，与伊恩·克肖——第一部分

互联网有一个不可违背的规律：任何人在社交媒体上参与争论，最终都会被指责为阿道夫·希特勒。

It is an infallible law of the Internet that anyone who gets into an argument on social media, in due course will end up being accused of being Adolf Hitler.

你好。

Hello.

欢迎收听《余下皆历史》，我是荷兰，还有多米尼克·桑德布鲁克。

Welcome to the rest is history with me, Holland, and Dominic Sandbrook.

多米尼克，你在职业生涯中一定被不少人指责过是希特勒吧？

Dominic, you must have been accused of being Hitler a fair number of times over the course of your career, have you?

很多次了。

Many times.

我认为，现在你无论在公共场合说什么，人们迟早都会说你是纳粹。

I think you can't say anything in public now without people at some point saying you're you're a Nazi.

无论你持有什么立场，这种指控都像达摩克利斯之剑一样悬在你头上，不是吗？

No matter what position you hold, that sort of accusation hangs over you like a sword of Damocles, doesn't it?

所以某种程度上说，

So in a sense,

今天的节目是关于阿道夫·希特勒的。

today's episode is on Adolf Hitler.

从某种意义上说，这个主题正是我们整个播客系列一直在铺垫的，因为我们的第一期节目就围绕着一个问题展开：在历史洪流面前，伟人究竟扮演着怎样的角色？

And there's a sense in which this is a subject that this entire series of podcasts has been building up to, because our very first episode was around the issue of of what role does does great do do great men play, when set against the kind of sweep of fast forces?

这个主题我们已经探讨过好几次了。

And that is a theme that we have, explored several times.

我们还探讨过另一个主题，那就是道德的本质——我们是否能在历史研究中谈论‘邪恶’这类话题，以及我们的‘邪恶’观念源自何处。

And another theme that we've explored is the nature of morality, whether we can talk about topics such as as evil in the context of of historical inquiry, where our ideas of evil come from.

所以今天，我们确实是在汇聚许多线索，对吧？

So it does feel that today we are drawing together quite a lot of of strands, aren't we?

是的。

Yes.

因为我觉得希特勒是其中之一，我的意思是，我们之前做过一期关于穆罕默德的节目。

Because I think Hitler is one of the I mean, we had a podcast about Mohammed.

显然，一些听众知道，我们还讨论过像尼禄这样的人物，他们已经深深植根于我们的想象中，但希特勒可能远远超越了他们所有人，不是吗？

Obviously, some listeners will know, we've talked about figures such as Nero that, you know, are sort of entrenched in our imagination, but Hitler probably dwarfs them all, doesn't he?

他是最广为人知的非宗教人物，不过我们稍后可以讨论，他是否已经近乎成为一种准宗教式的人物。

He's the he's the most familiar nonreligious, but we can talk later on about whether he's a sort of has almost become a kind of quasi religious figure.

但他无疑是人类历史上最广为人知的非宗教人物，而且他已经成为了道德和某种特定政治领导力的标杆，不是吗？

But he's the most familiar nonreligious figure, I think, in all human history and one with you know, that he has become a a a benchmark, I guess, hasn't he, for morality, for a particular kind of political leadership?

他就是我们审视过去一百年历史的透镜。

And and and he is the lens through which we view the last hundred years of history.

对吧？

Right?

我完全同意。

I absolutely I absolutely agree.

我认为，这样一个庞大且广为人知的主题，需要一位伟大的历史学家牵着我们的手，小心翼翼地走过这个充满雷区的领域。

And I think that a topic this massive and this well known needs a great historian to hold our hands as we we tiptoe across the minefield that is this subject.

多米尼克，幸运的是，你第一份工作是不是来自我们当代最伟大的希特勒传记作者？

And, Dominic, by great good fortune, I think you you got your first job from our our greatest living biographer of Hitler, didn't you?

是的。

I did.

是的，我确实去了。

Well, I did.

所以2001年，我去谢菲尔德大学参加了一次面试。

So in 2001, I went for a job interview at the University of Sheffield.

令人恐惧的是，面试委员会主席就是我们今天的嘉宾——伊恩·克肖爵士，他后来才获得这个头衔。

And, the terrifying thing was that the chair of the panel was our guest today, Sir Ian Kershaw, as he became a couple of years later.

我记得自己走进面试室时吓得腿软，因为你知道，你面对的是许多人眼中历史学术的巅峰人物，正因如此，我实在难以理解，伊恩，你居然给了我这份工作，而你的声望却丝毫未受影响。

And I can remember sort of going into the interview quaking in my boots knowing that, you know, you know, you're going into an interview to with somebody who, for many people, is the sort of acme of historical scholarship, which is why it's astounding to me that having offered me the job, Ian, you know, his credibility remained unimpaired.

这真是太棒了。

And and and it's great.

今天能请他来参加我们的播客，真的非常棒。

It's really great to have him on the podcast today.

伊恩，非常感谢你参与这次访谈。

Ian, thank you so much for doing this.

对我们来说，这真是一次莫大的荣幸

It's a real pleasure for us to

你有。

have you.

荣幸。

Pleasure.

所以，汤姆，你来开头好吗？

So, Tom, do you want to kick off?

因为你和伊恩在研究主题上有共同点，你们写的都不是希特勒。

Because you and Ian have something in common, in terms of what you've written about and is not Hitler.

嗯，其中一个

Well, one of

让我对研究希特勒的传记作者、以及那些以研究希特勒闻名的人感到着迷的一点是，他们中的许多人最初并不是纳粹德国领域的专家。

the things that that that fascinates me about biographers of Hitler and people who are famous for studying Hitler is that lots of them didn't begin as specialists in the field of of Nazi Germany.

艾伦·布洛克最初是研究古典学的。

So Alan Bullock began as a classicist.

我想休·特雷弗-罗珀也是学古典学的，对吧？

I think I didn't Hugh Trevor Roper, I think, studied classics, didn't he?

他的第一本书是关于十七世纪政治的。

And he his first book was on seventeenth century politics.

伊恩，你最初是研究中世纪修道院的专家，对吧？

And, Ian, you you began as a specialist in medieval abbeys, I think.

是这样吗？

Is that right?

然后才转而去写关于希特勒的书。

Before going on to to to write about Hitler.

那么，既然你的背景是中世纪史，你为什么会最终去写希特勒呢？

So so how was it that you ended up writing about Hitler when your background was in medieval history?

我原本是个彻头彻尾的中世纪学者，对中世纪充满热情，但我是通过德语逐渐对希特勒和纳粹德国产生兴趣的，这完全是我从未预料到的。

Well, I was an absolutely committed medievalist, passionate medievalist, and it it came about very gradually, and it came about through the German language really, that I'd never anticipated in a million years ever coming to be preoccupied with Hitler or Nazi Germany.

但事情是这样的：我纯粹是偶然在曼彻斯特的歌德学院开始学德语的，那时我刚在曼彻斯特大学担任中世纪史讲师。

But I a very I went to start just by chance learning German at the Goethe Institute in Manchester, at the time that I began as a lecturer in medieval history at Manchester University.

歌德学院当时刚刚在曼彻斯特开设了分校，我们有一位非常出色的老师，他让我们对德国的一切都充满热情。

They just opened a branch in Manchester, the Goethe Institute, and we had an inspired, a wonderful teacher there who enthused us with everything to do with Germany.

我对各种事情都产生了兴趣，不仅仅是德国历史。

I became interested in all sorts of things, not just history of Germany.

学习德语对我来说只是一种爱好，因为在学校和大学里，除了法语，我从未学过其他现代语言。

Learning German, which I wasn't able to do while learning any other modern language other than French at school and university, just something which was a hobby for me.

我原本并没有打算用它来做任何特定的事情，直到1972年，我获得了歌德学院提供的去德国的奖学金。

I had no intention of using it for any particular reason, until 1972 when I got the option to go on a scholarship to Germany from the Goethe Institute.

我在那里待了两个月，此时我的德语水平已经迅速提高，我带了很多关于中世纪历史的书，却发现自己开始阅读纳粹德国的相关内容。

I spent two months there, improved my German very rapidly by this time, and I took numerous books with me on medieval history and found myself reading stuff on Nazi Germany.

在那段时间里，我逐渐说服自己，真的有必要去探究一个非常明显的问题：为什么一个拥有如此丰富文化历史的国家，会堕入纳粹主义？

And in that period I then convinced myself that I wanted really to start investigating a very obvious question why a country like that with all its rich cultural history then should descend into into Nazism.

从此以后，我的研究就由此展开了。

And that's that took off from there onwards.

这是一个非常漫长的转变过程，故事很长，但正是从那时真正开始的。

It was a very long conversion, a long story, but that's when it began really.

伊恩，是不是有个故事，你在七十年代曾和某个德国普通人交谈，他对你说：‘哦，你是英国人。’

And isn't there some story, Ian, that you spoke to somebody in the seventies or or some a German a member of the public who said to you, oh, you're British.

你们站在了错误的一边。

You fought on the wrong side.

你们本该和我们站在一起，或者类似的情况。

You should have fought with us or something like that.

是的。

Yes.

那是在1972年，我在慕尼黑以西约二十英里外的一个小镇上待了两个月，一个下雨的星期天，我百无聊赖地坐在咖啡馆里看报纸，这时一位男士主动和我搭话，起初只是些平淡的闲聊。

Well, that was just during that during that two month stay in a very small town about 20 miles from Munich in 1972, and I was just whining away the time one wet Sunday and sitting in a cafe reading a paper and this chap got talking to me and it was just a banal conversation initially.

然后他问我，作为一个英国人，你为什么来这种小地方？

And then he then said to me what are you as an Englishman doing in a small place like this?

我告诉了他原因，接着他开始聊起来，我很快就被这段对话吸引住了。

And I told him and then and then he began and I became fascinated by the conversation.

他说：‘你们英国人，当然他没说‘英国人’，他说你们英国人真蠢，你们本该和我们一同参战，然后我们就能瓜分世界了。',

He said oh you English, of course he didn't say British, you English, you're so stupid, you should have come into war with us and we could have divided up the world.

我当时完全被这段对话吸引住了，但其中有一句话——或者说是某个说法——我永远都忘不了，这对我而言极具启示性：他一度在谈话中说‘犹太人是臭虫’，我从未听过如此极端的言论，虽然震惊，但同时又被这种言论深深吸引，我不禁想，这个小镇在纳粹时期究竟发生了什么？这成为推动我继续深入思考的一个关键触发点。

And I was absolutely gripped by the conversation at this point, but at one there was one sentence which I or phrase which I never forgot, and that was very telling for me, where at one point he said in the conversation, the Jew is a louse' and I've never come across anything remotely like that at all, and I was still shocked but fascinated at the same time by this comment, and I just wondered what had gone on in a small town like this during the Nazi era, and that was one trigger that pushed me on the way that I was already thinking of going.

几年后，我发现自己在阅读那个小镇在1930年代的警察报告。

Then, you know, a few years later I found myself reading the police reports for that very town, small town in the 1930s.

真的很惊人，但这正是我逐渐转变过程中的一条线索，正如我所说，这个转变花了相当长的时间，直到1975年左右我最终在曼彻斯特大学获得现代史教职，我才真正成为了一名现代史学者。

Amazing really, but it was one pointer on the way to this conversion which took, as I said, some while, and it wasn't until I eventually got a job in modern history at Manchester University in 1975 I think it was, that I then became a fully fledged modernist.

即便如此，第一年我经历了一段相当疯狂的时期，根本不知道门外的学生进来是想了解开放式燃料系统的起源，还是纳粹的兴起。

And even then, the first year, I had one fairly crazy year where I never knew whether students outside the door were coming in to learn about the origins of the open fuel system or the rise of the Nazis.

之后，一切才慢慢安定下来。

After that, after that, it settled down.

而且

And

后来，你最终写了希特勒的传记。

in due course, you you you end up writing a biography of Hitler.

我想这显然是个问题，也是我们整个对话中可能会反复绕圈子的问题。

And I suppose it's the obvious question, and it's the question that we'll probably be fencing around over the course of our entire conversation.

但研究纳粹德国在多大程度上就是研究希特勒？

But to what extent is the study of Nazi Germany the study of Hitler?

显然，希特勒是纳粹德国研究的核心焦点，但当然他并不是全部故事。

Well, it's obvious that Hitler is the central point, central focus of that study of Nazi Germany, yet of course he's not the whole story.

当然，我应该补充说，我写希特勒传记几乎是偶然的，我是通过德国社会史这条路径进入的，因为最初我根本对希特勒这个人毫无兴趣。

And of course I should add that I came to write a biography of Hitler almost by chance, I mean through the route, through German social history, history, because initially I wasn't interested in Hitler as a person at all.

我当时感兴趣的是，德国人民为什么会陷入纳粹主义，简单来说就是这个原因。

I was interested in why the German people fell for Nazism really, putting it very crudely.

显然，希特勒在其中扮演了角色，但我从未想过要写一本希特勒的传记，后来企鹅出版社——我传记的最终出版商——主动联系了我，我拒绝了，因为我表示我不想写希特勒的传记。

And obviously Hitler figures in that, but there was no thought of writing a biography of Hitler, and I was approached by Penguin, the eventual publisher of my biography initially, and I turned it down because I said I've no wish to write a biography of Hitler.

但后来我重新思考了一下，重读了巴克勒的著作，也重读了约亨·费斯特写的德国权威希特勒传记，最终决定还是写一本。

And then I thought it through again, and reread Bullock and reread the leading German biography of Hitler by Jochen Fest, and decided I would write one after all.

所以希特勒是核心人物，但他绝非纳粹主义的全部历史；直到1980年代，甚至更晚，许多德国史学界实际上回避了希特勒，因为他们认为聚焦希特勒等于为他开脱，这反而偏离了关于纳粹主义的关键问题，将历史过度集中于个人身上，无论这个人多么重要。

So Hitler is the central figure, but he's by no means the entire history of Nazism, and much German historiography until the 1980s really, if not later, actually turned away from Hitler because they thought Hitler was focusing on Hitler was like an apologia, that it was really detracting from the key questions about Nazism, and focusing upon one individual was misleading and was actually to centralize history too much in the case of one individual, however important that individual was.

在写你的传记时，你有没有发现希特勒的名声几乎令人窒息，你能否像看待其他普通人物一样看待他？

And did you find when you were writing your biography that his Hitler's fame was almost oppressive, that you could sort of as you could see him as a character like any other?

还是说，你始终意识到希特勒作为一个恶魔式偶像的存在？

Or were you was the the consciousness of Hitler as this kind of demonic icon?

这有时会不会变得几乎让人不堪重负？

Did that sometimes become almost overwhelming?

不会。

No.

我从一开始就完全屏蔽了那个恶魔般的形象，因为我觉得这毫无帮助。

I shut out the demonic icon very right from the very beginning because I didn't see that was helpful at all.

名声或恶名是另一个问题，从某种意义上说，无论你读到什么关于希特勒的资料，尤其是来自他同时代人的，都要么极度推崇，要么极度贬低。

The the fame or the notoriety was a different issue in in a sense that whatever you read or read about Hitler, particularly from his contemporaries, was either extremely for or extremely against.

因此，在关于希特勒的当代记载中，不存在中立立场，这在处理史料时非常困难，因为你面对的要么是宣传材料，要么是试图塑造希特勒传奇形象的内容，要么就是以各种方式谴责他、编造关于他的负面故事，而这些故事很难证实或证伪。

So there was no neutrality in writing, contemporaries viewing Hitler, and that was quite in terms of source material that you're dealing with, that's quite hard to cope with because you're dealing with stuff which is either propaganda material or aimed at building up a legendary image of Hitler, or else it's decrying him in every conceivable fashion and inventing negative stories about him, which are very difficult to prove or disprove.

所以，真正的困难在于史料的可靠性，而不是我早已摒弃的恶魔形象。

So that was the difficulty in terms of Reichsmarking, not the demonic image which I have to say discarded.

所以

So

关于希特勒与纳粹主义更广泛发展趋势之间的关系，我们有两个问题。

in terms of of the relationship of of Hitler to the the broader trend of the the development of Nazism, we've got two questions.

我们有一个来自一位叫‘短个子’的人的问题。

We've got a question from somebody called the short one.

如果没有希特勒这个人，纳粹主义还会发生吗？

Would Nazism have happened without the figure of Hitler?

其他任何一位纳粹高层能做他所做的事情吗？

Could any other of the leading Nazis have done what he did?

还有来自一位五十多岁的加德纳的问题，真是个好名字——伟大人物理论：在二十世纪二十年代末到三十年代末的德国，如果没有希特勒，还会发生多少同样的事情？

And one from fifty something Gardner, another splendid name, great man theory, how much of what happened in Germany in the late twenties through to late thirties would have happened anyway without Hitler?

所以，我猜这些问题聚焦了核心议题。

So I guess those questions focus the issue.

希特勒在纳粹主义的故事中有多重要？

How central is Hitler to the to the story of Nazism?

是的。

Yes.

这是一个重要的问题，而且并不容易回答。

And it's a it's an important question, and and it's one that's not easy to answer.

但如果你回溯纳粹主义的前史，就会发现希特勒在崛起时期，尤其是在20世纪20年代初所表达的观点，其实源于一种丰富的、类似种族主义民族主义的思想传统，而他只是众多代表中的一员。

But if if if you look back at the prehistory of Nazism, you see then that what Hitler was articulating when he says when he's rise to power, particularly in the early 1920s, from a rich background of similar racist nationalist thinking, of which he was only one amongst many exponents.

因此，在那个阶段，希特勒只是在反映当时极端激进种族主义右翼中广泛流传的思想。

So at that point Hitler was reflecting ideas which had a wider currency on the extreme radical racialist right.

当然，这仅仅是德国政治中的一条支流，甚至算不上核心主题，但在第一次世界大战后，它的影响力大大增强。

Of course, it's only one stream in German politics, not the key theme even, but it became much more popular after the First World War.

所以希特勒只是这一思潮的一位代表；而后来，我认为1925年纳粹党的重建是一个关键节点，从此希特勒成为了一个不可替代的人物，因为纳粹运动——就像几乎所有法西斯运动一样——极易陷入派系分裂和内部分裂。这一点在1924年希特勒被监禁数月时就显现出来：当时已被取缔的纳粹运动迅速分裂成多个派系，有时甚至是互相敌对的派系。

So Hitler's one exponent of that, and later on, and I'd say the refounding of the Nazi party in 1925 was one of those moments, Hitler becomes then an irreplaceable element because the Nazi movement, like practically all fascist movements actually, wherever you look at them, is susceptible was susceptible to a lot of factionalism and breakaways, and you saw this when Hitler was for several months imprisoned in 1924, that the Nazi movement, which had been banned, just broke apart into various factions, sometimes warring factions.

希特勒所做的，是把这些分裂的力量重新凝聚起来，巩固统一。从那时起，将这一运动视为与希特勒紧密绑定的领袖政党，成为了一个至关重要的因素。

What Hitler did was to bring these together again, to cement them, and from then onwards, the the notion of this as a leader party bound to Hitler was a crucial factor.

从此以后，希特勒的角色变得越来越核心。

And from there onwards, Hitler's role becomes more and more central.

关于你提出的第二个问题——没有希特勒，这一切会发生吗？

And to answer your the second, I think, question that you posed then, would it have happened without Hitler?

某些事情确实还是会发生的。

Well, certain things would have done.

极端民族主义的倾向，到了1930年代，则表现为对《凡尔赛条约》的修正。

The tendency towards extreme nationalism, and once you're into the 1930s, then towards a revision of Versailles.

这些事情在任何民族主义政府下都可能发生，但没有希特勒，其他一些事情就不会发生。

Those sort of things would have happened with any nationalist government, but other things would not have happened without Hitler.

因此，我认为从20世纪20年代中期开始的发展背景下，希特勒的角色至关重要，并且变得愈发关键。

And I think you can therefore say that in the context as it developed from the mid-1920s onwards, Hitler's role was absolutely central and became even more central.

那么，个人的作用就变得至关重要了，因为如果你问：没有希特勒，德国是否会如此迅速地堕入一个完全抛弃法治的警察国家？

So the role of the individual then becomes crucial because if you then said without Hitler would there have been such a rapid descent into a police state in which the rules of law were completely discarded?

没有希特勒，会如此迅速地堕入那种状态吗？

Such a rapid descent into that without Hitler?

大概不会。

Probably not.

如果没有希特勒，德国会在1930年代末卷入一场大规模的欧洲战争吗？

Would Germany have so gone by the end of the 1930s into a major European war without Hitler?

有可能，但大概不会。

Potentially, but probably not.

就连第三帝国的二号人物赫尔曼·戈林，到1939年也试图阻止希特勒，想让他放弃所冒的风险。

Even Helmut Goering, the second man in the Third Reich, then wanted to prevent that by 1939, wanted to head Hitler off from the risk he was taking.

第三，如果没有希特勒，我们还会发生大屠杀吗？

And thirdly, would we have had the Holocaust without Hitler?

反犹主义和反犹法律肯定会出现。

There would have been anti Semitism, anti Semitic legislation, unquestionably.

但如果没有希特勒，我们还会发生大屠杀吗？

But without Hitler, would we have had the Holocaust?

我会说不会。

I would say no.

所以，没有希特勒，就没有大屠杀。

So no Hitler, no Holocaust.

因此，希特勒在这些发展中变得至关重要，但他在早期，尤其是头几年，仅仅是德国极右翼广泛趋势的一个代表。

So Hitler does become central to these developments, yet he's nonetheless initially in the first years, in particular, just an exponent of wider trends which were prevalent on the German extreme right.

艾恩，我知道汤姆稍后还想谈谈大屠杀，但在那之前，希特勒显然有一种自己是伟人的自我认知。

Ian, I know Tom wants to come back about the Holocaust in a second, but just before we do that, Hitler obviously had a sense of himself as a great man.

你知道，他读过托马斯·卡莱尔的书，或者至少读过卡莱尔写的关于腓特烈大帝的书，对吧？

You know, he read Thomas Carlyle or he had Thomas Carlyle's book on Frederick the Great, think, didn't he?

是的。

And Yeah.

希特勒，某种程度上也是‘伟人史观’最后的堡垒之一——认为个人能够塑造国家命运，数百万人生死系于这一人之决策，他躲在自己的巢穴里做决定。你觉得是这样吗？还是说情况更复杂？

Is Hitler, and to some extent, the lot one of the last redoubts of kind of great man history, an individual shaping the course of nations, you know, the lives of of millions depending on the decisions taken by this one man, in his kind of lair, or do you or is it more complicated than that?

正如你可能想象的，情况比这更复杂。

As you might imagine, it's more complicated than that.

但首先，还是伟人史观。

But it it's first of all, the great man theory.

我认为这种观点根本行不通。

I I I think that's that takes us nowhere, really.

作为历史理论，它最好被抛弃。

As a theory of history, it's best discarded.

事实上，我会摒弃‘历史伟人’或‘伟大个体’这种观念。

In fact, I would discard the notion of greatness, historical greatness of great individuals.

所以我认为，声称X、Y或Z是伟大的并没有多大意义，因为缺乏相应的评判标准。

So I think there's not much point in suggesting that X, Y or Z was great, because there are no criteria for that.

我们可能会说，由于我们有一些美学标准，莫扎特是一位伟大的作曲家。

We might say, because we have some aesthetic measurements that Mozart was a great composer.

我们可能会说，布拉德曼是一位伟大的击球手。

We might say that Bradman was a great batsman.

但我觉得，当谈到政治家时，'伟大'这个词很快就会瓦解，你无法准确定义它。

But I think when you come to politicians, it has the term great rapidly disintegrates and you can't define it properly.

所以，如果你把'伟大'理解为道德上可接受，那么没有任何政治领袖是完全道德上可接受的，但显然许多人是道德上不可接受的，他们却产生了巨大影响。

So if you say great meaning morally acceptable, then there's no political leader who is entirely morally acceptable, but obviously many of them are morally unacceptable, but they have an enormous impact.

因此，我认为我们在这里真正需要的词是个人的影响，而不是个人的伟大，希特勒确实产生了巨大的影响，而这才是我们需要评估的。

So I think the word that we're looking for here is the impact of an individual, not personal greatness, and Hitler certainly had a colossal impact, and that's what we need to be assessing.

然后我们必须考察任何个人——不仅仅是希特勒——能够发挥如此重要作用的背景，这会引导我们去关注那些超越个人的力量，正是这些力量首先使个人得以掌权，并进而塑造了其产生巨大影响的能力。

And then we have to look at the context within which any individual, not just Hitler, can play such a significant role, and that takes you then into the forces which go beyond that individual that enable that individual to come to power in the first place, and then condition the capability of that individual to have such an enormous impact.

而这些正是我们必须提出的关键问题。

And those are the key questions that we have to ask.

实际上，是权力的结构将某人推上权力之位，无论是希特勒、列宁还是其他人，以及他们行使权力时所处的条件。

Actually, framework of power, which brings somebody to power in the first place, whether it's Hitler or whether it's Lenin or whoever it might be, and then the conditions with which they're able to exercise that power.

这些才是关键问题，而不是他们个人的伟大。

Those are the key questions, not the greatness of their individual.

但我觉得希特勒与列宁，或者希特勒与斯大林之间的对比在于，列宁和斯大林把自己视为巨大历史力量的代理人。

But I I I guess a contrast with between Hitler and Lenin or or Hitler and Stalin is that for Lenin and Stalin, they they cast themselves as agents of vast forces.

从某种意义上说，无产阶级才是他们故事中的英雄。

And in a sense, it's the proletariat who who are the heroes of their story.

而希特勒则完全强调英雄个体挺身而出、塑造国家命运的理念。

Whereas Hitler is absolutely foregrounding the idea that heroic individuals step forward and shape the destiny of nations.

我想知道，你认为希特勒对这种历史观——即伟人所扮演角色的理解——是否影响了他最终所扮演的角色，使他成为笼罩整个世界的庞大而恐怖的阴影？

And I wonder do you think that Hitler's belief in that kind of understanding of history and the role that that great men play impacted on on the role that he did indeed end up playing, this kind of monstrous titanic shadow that he ended up casting over the whole world?

是的。

Yes.

我同意。

I do.

我认为这是一个非常良好且公正的观点。

I think that's a very good and fair point.

我认为，他逐渐被塑造为一位强有力的领导者，因为起初他根本不会把自己看作这样的人，而只是认为自己在为德国未来的领袖铺路。

It it it gradually it gradually frames him, I think, as an as a as a powerful leader, because initially he doesn't see himself as that at all, but he sees himself as paving the way for Germany's leader to come.

但在1923年啤酒馆暴动失败后，他确实开始将自己视为德国伟大领袖的候任者。

But after the failure of the Putsch in the 1923, he does start to see himself in that role as Germany's great leader in waiting.

而这种个人命运感和伟大感，确实在他掌权后，尤其是在他的继任者身上，发挥了作用。

And the sense of personal destiny, of greatness, then does play a part in his descendants, in particular when he's in power.

多年前我写过一本名为《希特勒神话》的书，我特别关注了1936年莱茵兰再军事化这一事件，那时希特勒开始某种程度上相信了自己的神话，他说：‘我以梦游者的确定性走自己的路。’

And when I wrote a book many years ago called the Hitler Myth, I seized upon the point of the remilitarization of the Rhineland in 1936, where Hitler then starts to believe in his own myth somehow then, and he says I go my way with certainty of a sleepwalker.

这在我看来，是他开始相信自己永不犯错的唯一时刻，那种伟大与命运感自此确实发挥了作用。

And that seemed to me to be the one moment where he starts believing in his own infallibility, and that the sense of greatness and destiny then does play a part.

他在1939年向将领们解释为何必须开战时曾说：‘我随时可能被刺杀，而我在这件事中的角色是不可或缺的。’

And he says that in 1939 that when he's explaining to his generals the need to go to war then, and he says that any moment I could be assassinated, and my role in this is indispensable.

到1939年，他某种程度上确实在这样书写自己。

And to a certain extent he was writing that by 1939.

但关于这一点还有一个更广泛的观点：当时相信自己有命运感的，并不只是希特勒一人。

But there's one wider point on this is Hitler wasn't the only one at the time who believed in the sense of destiny for himself.

墨索里尼、丘吉尔、戴高乐也都如此。

Mussolini did too, Churchill did, de Gaulle did.

因此，对于这些19世纪末成长起来的人而言，个人命运的观念影响了所有人，但希特勒的表现尤为极端，正如你所说。

So for these people who were products of the late nineteenth century, the notion of personal destiny was something which affected all of but Hitler in quite an extreme fashion, as you say.

你曾谈到，‘伟大’这个概念有多么困难、多么棘手，在你看来又多么无用。

You've talked about how kind of difficult and how thorny and, in your view, sort of useless, I guess, the idea of greatness is.

但人们提到希特勒时，除了‘伟大’之外，最常使用的另一个词是什么呢？

But what about the other thing that people I mean, thing that people apply to Hitler more than anything else.

在公众讨论中，笼罩在希特勒头上的词就是‘邪恶’。

So if you're in conversation, in, as it were, sort of public discourse, the word that hangs over Hitler is evil.

作为历史学家，你觉得这个说法是否合理？我知道它未必有用，但你能回避它吗？

As a historian, do you is that is that at all well, is I can see that it's not necessarily useful, but can you escape from it?

你能写一本关于希特勒的书，却完全不被他已成为人类邪恶最纯粹象征的这种强烈意识所笼罩吗？

I can you write a book about Hitler without this sort of overpowering consciousness that he has come to represent sort of human wickedness in its most distilled form?

我认为所有历史学家都必须使用语言，而语言本身会泄露我们许多想法。

Well, I think I think all historians, we all have to use language, and the language itself betrays many of our thoughts.

这是无法避免的。

That's inescapable.

我们做不到，也无法避开这一点。

We can't do that, we can't avoid that.

但正如您在问题中暗示的那样，'邪恶'这个词在讨论希特勒时，自然会让人觉得他可能是二十世纪最邪恶、最邪恶的人物之一，或者说起他，人们立刻就会想到'邪恶'。

But the term evil, as you're implying in your question there, is something which if you're in a conversation about Hitler, of course you would say is possibly the most, one of the most evil men of the twentieth century, or evil comes rapidly to mind in talking about him anyway.

但在我撰写传记时，从一开始就决定摒弃这个词，同时也摒弃任何关于'疯狂'的说法，因为这些都不是有用的分析术语。

But when I was writing the biography I decided right at the beginning to discard that term as well as discard any sort of notion of brain, is because it's not a useful analytical term.

我的意思是，如果说希特勒是邪恶的化身，这真能解释很多东西吗？

I mean if you say, well Hitler was the epitome of evil, does it actually explain very much?

我的意思是，它能解释为什么数百万德国人愿意支持他、为他欢呼、投票给他吗？

I mean explain why millions of Germans actually were ready to support him and cheer for him and vote for him and things.

它能解释他所做出的那些决策吗？

And does it explain the decisions that he was making?

这只是一个无用的分析术语，它是一个形而上学的术语，而不是历史分析术语。

It's just not a useful analytical term, it's a metaphysical term, not a historical analytical term.

但当然，正如我所说，在写作中，当我们思考这样一个人时，实际上无法回避它；比如，我知道我们稍后会回到大屠杀，但当你谈论大屠杀时，很难不认为这是二十世纪最严重的罪行，而对此负有最大责任的人正是希特勒。

But of course, we are, as I said, in writing, we can't, thinking about an individual like that, you can't actually escape it, and you look at something like, I know we're going to come back to the Holocaust, but if you're talking about the Holocaust, then it's difficult to escape the notion that this is the greatest crime of the twentieth century, and the man who was more than any other responsible for that was Hitler.

因此，从某种意义上说，这种巨大的邪恶感显然成了对希特勒的替罪羊，但在分析他的行为时，这并没有太大用处。

So the sense of great evil then obviously is, in one way, in a scapegoat from Hitler, but just in analyzing what he did, it's not very useful.

好吧，多米尼克，我一开始就说，当你制作一集关于希特勒的节目时，你实际上也是在探讨如何书写历史。

Well, Dominic, I mean, I said at the the top of the show that when you do an episode on Hitler, you're also kind of doing an episode on how you write history.

是的。

Yeah.

整个过程并不是必需的。

The whole process isn't required.

你的看法也是这样吗？

I mean, do you feel the same about that?

我的意思是，我知道你有自己的个人偏见、直觉和态度，但你必须保持它们。

I mean, it's kind of you have your well, I know that you have your your personal prejudices and instincts and attitudes, but, I mean, you have to keep them.

你在写作时必须筛选掉它们。

You have to kind of winnow them when you when you write.

确实如此。

You do.

我想这确实是个有趣的问题，不是吗？

I I suppose you it's an interesting one, isn't it?

听艾恩爵士谈论阿德勒。

Listening to Sir Ian talking about Adler.

因为当我写关于人们所熟知的撒切尔夫人时。

Because when I'm writing about, you know, people that people have Thatcher.

是的。

Yeah.

人们对她有着极其强烈的意见，几乎不相上下。

Incredibly strong opinions Almost as equal.

我的意思是，有些人并不会。

I mean, not some people would.

我的意思是，这不就是奇怪的地方吗？

I mean, that's the weird thing, isn't it?

但你说得对，汤姆。

But, you're right, Tom.

我认为，在某种程度上，你必须非常清楚自己的偏见和情感，但你必须努力超越它们。

I think, to some extent, you have to be very aware of your own prejudice, I think, and your own feelings, but you have to try and transcend them.

我的意思是，历史研究和历史训练本就应该是这样的：你有时能够跳出自己的偏好和成见。

Mean, that's what historical scholarship and historical training is meant to be all about, that you can sometimes step outside your own predilections and your own preconceptions.

但同时，让我把问题抛回给你。

But also, surely, let me turn it back to you.

当你写关于古典时代或中世纪时期的暴行时，你知道，你是不是得压抑自己的个人反感或类似的情绪？

When you're writing about atrocities in, you know, the classical world or the medieval period or something, you know, do you have to sort of bite back your own personal revulsion or whatever?

我的意思是，如果只是不断地哀叹，那本书会非常无聊，不是吗？

I mean, if it's just a kind of constant lament, that'd be a very boring book, wouldn't it?

我认为这是个有趣的问题，我确信我们稍后在节目中也会谈到希特勒离我们如此之近这一点。

I think it's an interesting question, and I'm sure it's it's it's one we'll come on to later in the show that Hitler is so is so close to us.

而发生在遥远过去的事情，看起来似乎很遥远。

Whereas things that happened in in the distant past, it can seem distant.

所以这几乎是相反的。

So almost it's the opposite.

但当你写凯撒和高卢人，或者尼禄和斯波鲁斯的时候——我们之前讨论过。

Almost but when you're writing about Caesar and the Gauls or, say, Nero and Sporus, you know, we've talked about before.

是的。

Yeah.

你必须提醒自己，这些并不是仅仅是神话中的人物。

You have to remind yourselves that these are not just figures of of myth.

这些是真实的人，你知道，这些事情真的发生在他们身上。

These are figures you know, these things happen to real people.

你知道吗？

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

但那从来都不是，你知道的，这显然不是希特勒的问题。

So but that is but that's never you know, that's obviously not not not an issue with Hitler.

我们稍后会回来，讨论希特勒究竟是如何成为希特勒的。

And we will be coming back, and we will be talking about, well, really, how Hitler became Hitler.

广告之后，我们会谈谈他的早年生活。

We'll be talking about his early years after the break.

欢迎回到《历史的其余部分》。

Welcome back to The Rest is History.

今天我们邀请到英国最伟大的在世历史学家之一，伊恩·克肖爵士，我们将讨论他的主要研究对象——希特勒。

We are with Sir Ian Kershaw, one of Britain's greatest living historians, and we are talking about, his great subject, Hitler.

汤姆，我想你之前想问关于写希特勒纳粹之前生平的困难，对吧？

And Tom, I think you wanted to ask about the difficulty of writing about Hitler's life before Nazism, didn't you?

是的。

Yeah.

所以，如果我们看看一些关于希特勒的传记的话。

So so if we I mean, look at some of the biography of of of Hitler.

但当你写传记时，从某种意义上说，这是一个目的论的过程。

But when you write a biography, in a sense, it it's a teleological process.

你已经知道结局，知道这个人的人生将走向何方，最终会带来什么结果。

You have a sense of of the end, where this life is going to to lead to, what what it's going to result in.

如果你说没有希特勒，就没有大屠杀，那么这六百万人因这一个人而死的阴影，几乎笼罩着你所要书写的整个人生。

And if you're saying no Hitler, no Holocaust, then this shadow of of 6,000,000 people dead because of this this one man essentially hangs over the life that you're going to write.

所以，我再次觉得，这或许是个天真的问题，但我实在忍不住要问。

So I I just it's again, I I'm sure it's a kind of a naive question, but it's one that that I I can't help but ask.

所以当你审视希特勒的起点——他的祖先、祖父祖母、父母以及童年——那里有什么迹象能预示他最终会走向何方吗？

So when you look at the beginnings of Hitler, his his his ancestry, his his grandfather, his grandparents, his parents, his childhood, is there anything there that serves as a warning flag, as it raises alarms about where it's going to end up?

还是说，提出这个问题本身就很天真？

Or is it naive even to ask that question?

不。

No.

你的问题从不天真，汤姆。

Your questions are never naive, Tom.

但这些问题是历史学家在撰写某人传记时，必须放在脑后的。

But but what what but they are they are questions that, as a historian one has to put on the back of one's mind when writing the life of somebody.

显然我们知道这个故事的结局——他在地堡中死去，我们知道大屠杀等等，但在撰写一部有价值的传记时，无论是关于希特勒还是其他人，我们都必须回到起点，尝试解释这些事情是如何发生的，而不是用结局本身作为解释。

Obviously we know the end point of this story, death in the bunker, we know about the Holocaust and so on, but in actually writing a worthwhile biography, whether it's of Hitler or anybody else, one has to go back to the beginning and try to explain how these things take place without actually using the end points as an explanation in itself.

因此，以希特勒的童年为例，我们必须摆脱‘他后来做了可怕的事情，所以童年就注定如此’这种观念。

So looking at Hitler's childhood, for example, we have to escape from the notion that this was a man who did terrible things later on.

事实上，即使在传记中，我记得我也曾提到，如果你审视希特勒的童年，你甚至可能会说，他来自一个非常扭曲的家庭背景，你甚至可能对他产生一些同情。

And in fact, even in the biography, at some point, as I recall, I did say that if you look at Hitler's childhood, you might actually even say, well here's somebody from a very disturbed family background, you might even have some sympathy for him.

当然，你在那个孩子身上看不到后来那个我们在1940年代所面对的恶魔——如果可以这样表达的话。

Certainly you don't see in the child the later monster that we're dealing with, if that's the right way to put it, in the 1940s.

关于大屠杀，我在书中特别强调，就像我其他著作中一样，试图解释这一事件漫长的形成过程，而不是简单地将其归结为希特勒的偏执，那样只会把大屠杀当作最终的终点。

And as regards the Holocaust, made a particular point in the book, as in other writings of mine, of trying to explain process, the lengthy process by which this came about, rather than see it through just through some Hitler paranoia, which then inevitably leaves the Holocaust as the final point.

因此，我们必须避免这种目的论，无论它体现在个人层面还是社会层面。

So we have to avoid that teleology, whether it's personal or it's social in its processes.

因为这几乎成了一种慰藉，不是吗？

Because it becomes almost a kind of comfort, doesn't it?

你认为可以解释希特勒的行为。

The idea that you can explain what Hitler does.

比如说，发现某种核心的心理缺陷。

Say, come across some core psychological flaw.

所以人们经常谈论希特勒的祖父是不是犹太人？

So people often talk about was was Hitler's grandfather a Jew?

他是否为此感到忧虑？

Was this something that that he worried about?

或者类似这样的说法：不是。

Or something like No.

不是。

Wasn't.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

好的。

Okay.

所以，就是这样。

So so that's it.

这个问题的答案是，他根本不是。

The answer to that is that he he he he Wasn't.

他的祖父不是犹太人，希特勒也没有为此担心过。

The grandfather wasn't Jewish and Hitler didn't worry about that.

这种想法完全是荒谬的。

That as an idea is is is a nonsense.

没错。

That's right.

我认为这些心理学理论最好以非常批判和谨慎的态度来对待。

I think these psychological theories are best treated in a very critical and conservative fashion.

也就是说，任何传记作者都很容易采纳心理学理论，但这些理论通常无法证实，因为当事人从未接受过心理学家的诊断。

That is to say that, again, it's an easy operation for any biographer to take up psychological theories, which are usually nonprovable because the subject has never been on a psychologist gouging.

然后从中解读出一套完整而复杂的歷史发展。

And then read into that an entire intricate and complex historical development.

我在《野蛮人》中尽最大努力避免这一点，主要通过脚注而非正文本身，摒弃了各种关于希特勒的心理学理论。

And I tried my best in the barbaric to avoid that, and discarded the various psychotherories of Hitler, mainly in footnotes rather than in the text itself.

对于这些观点，无论是关于希特勒还是其他任何人，我从来都没有遇到太大麻烦。

And I've never had very much trouble with those ideas, whether it's Hitler or anybody else for that matter.

所以我认为，我们需要应对的是能够解释这些现象的政治进程，而非心理上的困扰。

So I think what we have to deal with are political processes that explain these things rather than psychological hangups.

伊恩，我可以问一个听起来可能很平凡的问题吗？

Ian, can I ask a sort of what might sound a very mundane question?

您认为希特勒是在什么时候成为希特勒的？

At what point would you say Hitler became Hitler?

所以，阿道夫·希特勒这个人，究竟在什么时候变成了我们现在所认知的这种——我不知道该用什么词——情感上受损、不仅麻木不仁，而且充满暴力与破坏性的人？

So Adolf Hitler at what point did Adolf Hitler the man become what we would now see as this I don't know what the right words are, damaged, emotionally, sort of not just insensitive, but but violent and destructive.

当希特勒在第一次世界大战前贫穷潦倒，当他还是个被称作‘艺术家’的街头画家，或在战壕里当兵时，他看起来并不像二十年代和三十年代那个恶魔般的形象。

At what point does does, you know, Hitler, when he's, sort of poor and miserable before the First World War and then when he's the artist that they they call him the artist, don't they, or something in the trenches, he doesn't seem to be the sort of demonic figure of the nineteen twenties and nineteen thirties.

你认为他在什么时候发生了这种转变？是有一个明确的转折点，还是根本没有这样的转折？

At what point do you think he did sort of shift if the or or was there not a point when he shifted in that way?

我认为关键时期——虽然不是一个绝对精确的时刻——是第一次世界大战后在慕尼黑的那段时期。我认为，正如当时一位德国历史学家所说，是政治找到了希特勒，而不是希特勒找到了政治。在战后慕尼黑的特定环境下，希特勒开始显现出我们后来所熟知的那副面目。

I I think the key point the key period at any rate it's not an absolute precise point but the key period is in Munich in the period immediately following the First World War, and that's I think where, as one German historian, it at the time, where politics came to Hitler, Hitler didn't come to politics, and where in the conditions that follow the first war in Munich, Hitler then becomes visibly the sort of Hitler that we know subsequently.

因此，我认为正是在1919年的那几个月里，我们才真正认识了希特勒。当然，从传记角度看，这很耐人寻味：他出生于1889年，从1889年到1919年，他完全是个无足轻重、默默无闻的人，我们对他几乎一无所知。

So I think it's in those months of 1919 that we really recognise Hitler, and that's an intriguing thing about him biographically of course, that he was born in 1889, so between 1889 and 1919, he's somebody who was completely inconsequential, anonymous, we hardly know anything about him really.

他毫无重要性，他说的任何话都无人在意，也无人觉得有任何价值。

He's totally unimportant, nothing he says is taken of any interest by anybody around him, seen as any interest by anybody around him.

但从1919年开始，他却成为推动世界大战、种族灭绝并摧毁自己国家的关键人物。

And then from 1919 onwards he's somebody who helps to bring about world war, genocide and destroy his own country.

所以这是一个惊人的轨迹，但我认为关键时期是1919年至1923年之间，而1919年的那几个月，如果我们想说得精确些，就是希特勒成为希特勒的时刻。

So it's a phenomenal trajectory, but it really the key period I think is between 1919 and 1923 and the months of 1919 are the period where I think if we want to be precise we can say that's when Hitler becomes Hitler.

那么，当时究竟发生了什么？

And what is it that happens then?

究竟是什么发生了变化？

What is it?

那火花是什么？

What is the spark?

接下来发生的是，希特勒在《我的奋斗》以及他写的或说的其他任何内容中，对这些具体月份都保持沉默。

What happens then is that he in in the and and incidentally, Hitler is very quiet in Mein Kampf and anything else that he wrote or said about these precise months.

但在1918年德国革命与1919年之间，希特勒住在慕尼黑，亲历了社会主义革命，随后又经历了关键时刻——1919年3月所谓的苏维埃共和国，当时慕尼黑被极端左翼革命运动占领，试图按照苏维埃（俄语中“苏维埃”即“委员会”之意）的方式建立委员会。

But between the revolution in Germany in 1918 and the the 1919, Hitler was living in Munich experiencing socialist revolution, then experiencing, and the key moment probably in March 1919, the so called Council's Republic, where Munich was taken over by extreme left wing revolutionary movement, which attempted to build up councils in the way that Soviets, the German words Russian words Soviets, just another word for council.

因此，这种俄式苏维埃在1919年4月的慕尼黑领导层中，有相当数量的犹太人，其中一些还是外国籍。当时希特勒正住在慕尼黑的兵营里，甚至被选为兵营代表，因此在某种程度上，他当时必须被视为左翼或至少表面上属于左翼，才能当选为这一时期兵营的代表。

So Russian style Soviets, which, and there are a large number in the leadership of the Soviets in Munich in April 1919, were a considerable number of Jews, some of them of foreign origin, and Hitler was at that time in the barracks in Munich, and he was even elected to be a representative of the barracks, and therefore in a way he had to be then somebody on the left, or seen to be on the left at that time, to be elected as a council, as a representative of these barracks in this time.

但当这个苏维埃政权被右翼军队以残酷手段镇压后，希特勒立刻在自己的兵营中转变为一个转向者，开始公开谴责那些曾参与苏维埃运动的兵营成员及其他相关人员。

But immediately after the collapse of this, when it was destroyed by right wing troops coming in and putting it down with great ferocity, But Hitler then, within his own barracks, then becomes a figure who is like a turnculture, so he's now actually denouncing people in his barracks and elsewhere who then took part in this council's movements.

我认为，这就是关键转折点：此后，希特勒在军队中（仍服役期间）逐渐被视为能处理犹太问题的专家。到1919年9月，他已经能撰写一篇纲领性文件，回应外界询问，主张未来必须建立在彻底清除犹太人的基础上。

And that's the key moment, I think, where Hitler then becomes converted after that then in the army, still in the army, he becomes then seen as somebody who can by September 1919 be writing a tract seen as a as a specialist on the Jewish question, he can write a letter in answer to an inquiry to come in and saying that the future has to be built upon the removal of any nationalist government, one aim to remove the Jews altogether.

1919年9月，他加入了刚刚成立的德国工人党——也就是后来的纳粹党；而在1919年夏季，他被派去向等待复员的士兵进行思想灌输。

In September 1919 he joins the infant German workers' parties, which we call later the Nazi party, and in that summer months of 1919 he's sent on to indoctrinate troops who are waiting for demobilization.

正如他在《我的奋斗》中所说，他在此期间发现，自己竟然擅长演讲。

And he learns at that time, as he puts it in my comfort, learns that he could speak.

也就是说，人们在聆听他的言论并为之振奋，他在那些早已对这类言论持开放态度的士兵中，展现出一种典型的反犹主义煽动者形象。

That is to say that people were listening to his message and they were enthused by it, and he came across then as an archetypal antisemitic firebrand, was enthused in the troops who were already open to these messages in the barrack.

因此，这是希特勒个人发展过程中至关重要的时期；到1919年9月他加入初生的纳粹党时，他已明显成为愿意投身右翼激进极端种族主义政治的人物。

So that's a period which was absolutely crucial in Hitler's own personal development, and by September 1919 when he's joining the infant Nazi party, still in the army, he then is is visibly then somebody who is prepared now to engage in right wing radical extreme racist politics.

我们对这一时期和这个问题提出了很多疑问，因为，你曾著名地称希特勒为‘非人’。

And we had a lot of questions about about this sort of period and about this issue because, I mean, you've famously called Hitler a non person.

你的传记第一部分令人信服地表明，希特勒生命的头三十年，他只是一个无名之辈。

And and the, you know, the first part of your biography shows so convincingly that Hitler, the first thirty years of his life, he's a nobody.

他确实是个可怜的人物。

He is a pitiful figure, really.

他是个失败者。

He's a loser.

他是生活中典型的失败者。

He's a he's one of life's losers.

然后他发现了——如果你愿意用陈词滥调来说——他找到了自己的超能力。

And then he discovers, I mean, what you could call if you're being trite, he would he discovers his superpower.

我们收到了大量关于这个问题的提问。

And we had tons of questions about this.

例如，安德鲁·凯尔曼问，如果他这么无能，那他到底有什么才能？

So for example, Andrew Kelman said asks, you know, if he's so useless, what talents did he possess?

仅仅是演讲的口才吗？还是有其他更深层的原因？

And is it just speaking rhetorical ability, or is there something more?

换句话说，他的魅力究竟体现在哪里？

Is that you know, wherein lies his charisma, if you like?

他的魅力究竟体现在哪里？

Wherein lies his charisma?

这是个大问题。

That's a big question.

但就他在这段时期的能力而言，他在《我的奋斗》中两次提到，我发现自己能说话。

But in terms of his abilities, in this period I'm just talking about now, he said it twice in Mein Kampf, then I realized I could speak.

第一次，人们开始认真听他讲话，这反映了战后初期德国人心理和政治氛围的转变。

And for the first time people were listening to him, says something about the way in which German mentality of German politics had shifted in the immediate post war period.

因此，在第一次世界大战之前，这些观点属于极少数人的看法，如果当时希特勒持有这些观点，他也不会引起任何注意，实际上他在那个时期之前并不具备这些观点。

So before the First World War, these views were those of an extreme minority which were not would have been Hitler would have made no mark at all then, people would have seen him, he actually didn't have these views until the immediate period.

因此，他所拥有的是学会了如何用修辞打动听众的能力。

So what he had was he learned that he had this ability to reach an audience with his rhetoric.

于是他开始意识到自己具有煽动性的天赋。

Became then aware of his own demagogic talents.

但这些煽动性天赋是真实的，因为他发自内心地讲话。

But these demagogic talents were real ones because he spoke from the heart.

这并非刻意编造，他确实有这种感受。

It wasn't contrived, he felt like this.

他感到一种强烈的愤怒、怨恨和对那些他认为在第一次世界大战末期拖垮了德国的人的仇恨。

He felt an intense anger and resentment and hatred of those people who he thought had done Germany down towards the end of the First World War.

因此，第一次世界大战末期、革命期间以及革命之后的那段时期，对他而言至关重要，因为无论他此前个人内心潜藏的仇恨是什么，那时都转化成了一种他所说的‘世界观’，即一种意识形态。

So that period towards the end of the First World War and into the revolution and through the revolution and out at the other side of it was the period that was really crucial for him, because always whatever inbuilt hatred he'd had of a personal kind beforehand then turned into a sort of worldview, as he put it, an ideology.

而对犹太人的关注是这一意识形态的核心，但他首先是一个极端的德国民族主义者，他在慕尼黑啤酒馆所做的是向那些他认为把德国推向深渊的政治家们倾泻自己的怨毒。

And the focus upon Jews was the central point of this, but he was a German, extreme German nationalist, and what he was wanting to do then in the Munich Beer Halls was to pour out his bile on the politicians who he felt had stole Germany down the river.

他传达的正是这样的信息，而他传达得越多，这种信息在他自己内心就越产生共鸣。

And this is the message that he got across, and the more he got the message across, the more it had a resonance within himself.

因此，他逐渐把自己看作一个能够做到这一点的人，但在20世纪20年代初的几年里，他自称是‘鼓手’，为那位即将出现的伟大领袖鼓动支持，直到1923至1924年之后，他才开始把自己视为那位领袖，而一旦如此，他就开始构建一种魅力感。

So he saw himself then increasingly as a figure who could do this, but he called himself for some years in the early 1920s the drummer, and was singing also the drummer up of support for the great leader who was going to come, and only from nineteen twenty three-twenty four onwards did he come to see himself as that leader himself, and once there you're into the building up then of a sense of charisma.

魅力是一种人为制造的东西，并非个人天生具备，而是周围的人在观察他、将这种特质投射到希特勒身上，并称他是德国的墨索里尼。

Charisma then is a manufactured product, it's not something that an individual has innately, but rather something that the people were around him seeing him, and that people were portraying this on Hitler and saying that Germany's Mussolini.

这同样也让他飘飘然，因此在墨索里尼于1922年在意大利掌权后，慕尼黑啤酒馆里的人们就开始说：‘我们这儿也有自己的墨索里尼了。’

That went to his head as well, so immediately following Mussolini's takeover of power in Italy in 1922, in the Beershaw's in Munich people saying we've got our own Mussolini here.

像希特勒这样的人，对自己狂热的观念早已了然于胸，这些赞誉同样让他头脑发热。

Those things, character like Hitler was so aware of him, so aware of his own fanatical ideas already, this went to his head too.

于是他开始以这种方式看待自己，也越来越多地以这种方式塑造自己。

So he started to see see himself in this way and oversaw him more and more in that way too.

这个过程就像施洗者约翰决定：好吧，其实我才是耶稣。

This process by which, he John the Baptist decides that, well, actually, I'm Jesus.

我要成为救世主。

I'm I'm going to be the messiah.

这似乎确实符合他擅长煽动的事实，因为现在我们看到，随着激进化的过程，你谈论得越多，吸引的听众越多，听众越热情、越鼓励你继续谈论这件事。

I it does seem to align with the fact that his talent is for demagoguery because, you know, it's we we we see it now, with with the process of radicalization that the more you talk about something and the more you get an audience and the more the audience enthuse you, encourage you to talk about it.

从某种意义上说，你变得越激进。

So in a sense, the more radical you become.

希特勒的情况也是这样吗？

Is is that the case with Hitler, you think?

你认为，他是否通过不断表达这些观点，并看到人们对他所说的话产生共鸣，而变得越来越反犹、越来越敌视那些他私下里不喜欢的人？

Do think he becomes progressively, say, more antisemitic, more hostile to the people that that he privately disliked through the process of articulating it and seeing people enthused by what he's saying to them?

我认为这确实强化了他原有的观点，但我认为他从1919年一直到生命终结，这些观点都相当一致。

I think it certainly reinforces the views that he that he had, but I think he had those views fairly consistently from 1919 right through to the end.

希特勒性格中的一个特点是，一旦他形成了某种想法，尤其是执念，就永远不会改变，我认为这些想法在1919年或之后就已经在他心中根深蒂固了，而后来正如你所说，他通过在慕尼黑啤酒馆的激烈演说等手段，获得了人们对这些观点的回应，从而进一步强化了它们。

And period of Hitler's sort of character that once he developed an idea, a fixated idea, he never moved away from it, and those ideas were I think already fixed with him by 1919 or afterwards, and then you come the reinforcement of those ideas through exactly what you're saying, the appeal that he found that he could instill in other people through his harangues in the Munich beer Halls and the rest of it.

所以这是一个双向的过程，但他在慕尼黑获得的回应确实让他更加确信自己是对的。

So it's a two way process there, but certainly the response he was getting in Munich shored up the feelings that he was right.

不过我还想补充一点，他不仅仅是个煽动者，还极具战术敏锐性，尤其擅长抓住对手的弱点，这一点从20世纪20年代中期就开始显现，后来随着他面对更多外国对手，这种能力也愈发突出。

One other thing that I'll just add to that though is that he wasn't just a demagogue, and he had very good tactical acumen, in particular for the weaknesses of his opponents, and he shows that already from the mid-1920s onwards, and increasing his time was thrown later on of course with foreign opponents as well.

他对对手的弱点有着非常清晰的认识，并且直击要害。

He's got a very sure notion of the of the weaknesses of his opponents and goes to the juggernaut.

他在这一方面的敏锐洞察力，一直被所有人低估。

And his astuteness in that is something that everybody underestimated right the way through.

只是有一个非常明显的、我想说是关键的问题：希特勒从一开始就拥有他的那些想法。

Just just one obvious I I guess it's the the huge question around, you know, Hitler had his ideas right from the beginning.

他从一开始就想到最终解决方案了吗？

Did he have the idea of the final solution?

他是什么时候得出这个结论的？

When did when did he arrive at that?

没有。

No.

没有。

No.

关于他从一开始就拥有这些想法这一点，我想提一点警告。

And and just one word of caution on he had these ideas from the very beginning.

不，他的想法发生了变化。

No, his ideas changed.

例如，尽管反犹主义是核心特征，但用‘憎恨犹太人’这个说法可能更准确——正如我所说，从1919年起，憎恨犹太人就是他思想中的意识形态基础。

So for example, although antisemitism was a central feature, hatred of Jews is a better term probably for it Hatred of Jews was central to his thinking from, as I said, from 1919 onwards as an ideological explanation.

这本身就是一个过程，早在维也纳时期就已带有某种程度的反犹色彩，但真正关键的时期是20世纪20年代初，那时它成为他的意识形态。

It's a process itself, which doubtlessly was antisemitic to some extent already in Vienna, but the real key period was then the early 1920s when it becomes an ideology for him.

但还有一点，比如‘生存空间’这个概念，是后来才出现的。

But one other point, for example, Limmesgraam or the living space idea that comes somewhat later.

最初并不存在反布尔什维克主义，而是更多地表现为反资本主义，并将反犹主义与反资本主义联系在一起。

Also anti Bolshevism isn't there initially, and more anti capitalism with antisemitism linked to anti capitalism at the beginning.

后来情况发生了变化，到1920年，反布尔什维克主义、反马克思主义开始与之关联；而到1924年他在狱中时，‘生存空间’的概念成为关键虚构——从1925年到1928年，他几乎在每一次演讲中都会提到生存空间。

It then changes, so by 1920 it's more anti Bolshevism that's linked to that, anti Marxism, and by 1924 when he's in prison then the idea of living space becomes a crucial fiction from between 1925 and 1928 he speaks about living space in every single speech, practically.

希特勒的思想经历了演变，但一旦这些观念形成，就再也没有消失。

So there's a development in Hitler's thinking, but once they're there, these ideas don't go away.

因此，他的思想确实经历了发展。

So there is development there.