636. 伊朗革命：沙阿的倒台（第一部分）

这又是一件极具前瞻性的举措。

Again, a very forward looking thing.

他以民粹主义者的身份参选。

He runs as a populist.

他竞选时对阵一位名叫卡尔·桑德斯的民主党人，后者是建制派代表，卡特将他描绘成乡村俱乐部权贵的傀儡。

And he he ran against a man called Carl Sanders, democrat, establishment figure, and Carter painted him as the sort of puppet of the country club bigwigs.

他称他为‘袖扣卡尔’。

He called him cufflinks Carl.

这确实很像特朗普。

So that is quite Trump.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Of course.

吉米·卡特的民粹主义非常有趣。

Jimmy Carter's populism is really, really interesting.

他的南方民粹主义非常独特，这两本书都回溯了南方民粹主义的传统，但他对这种传统在二十世纪晚期的重新包装却极具前瞻性。

His southern populism is very it's both both books looks back to a tradition of southern populism, but the way in which he repackages it for the late twentieth century is very forward looking.

他说，你看。

And he says, look.

我是小人物的代言人。

I'm the champion of the little guy.

我是个普通人。

I'm an ordinary person.

我不是职业政客。

I'm not a career politician.

我穿着漂亮的格子衬衫，诸如此类的一切。

I've got my nice plaid shirt, all of this kind of thing.

他赢得了选举。

He wins the election.

他成为了州长。

He becomes governor.

他在这方面挺在行的。

He's pretty good at it.

到1972年底，他已经开始考虑竞选总统。

And by late nineteen seventy two, he is thinking about running for president.

表面上看，这几乎是不可能成功的。

Now on the face of it, this is a very long shot.

自内战后的安德鲁·约翰逊以来，还没有过真正的南方总统，也从未有过来自深南地区的总统——那些曾经拥有数百万奴隶的州，比如密西西比、阿拉巴马、佐治亚等地。

There hasn't been a genuine southern president since Andrew Johnson in the aftermath of the civil war, and there has never been a president from the Deep South, from the really Deep South, from the states that had once held millions of slaves from places like Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, and so on.

这些州从未出过一位总统。

There's never been a president from one of these states.

另外，人们对卡特的另一个误解是：现在大家都觉得吉米·卡特是个善良的人，曾为穷人建房子之类的，但人们忘了，七十年代的卡特比大多数民主党激进分子都要保守。

And the other thing that so against Carter, Carter and this is the thing that that now that everyone thinks that Jimmy Carter is a lovely kind guy who built houses for poor people and stuff, People forget, Carter in the seventies was much more conservative than most Democratic activists.

所以，他想获得总统提名，难度非常大。

So, you know, it's a tough gig for him to try to get the presidency presidential nomination.

但出人意料的是，一切机遇都落到了他头上。

But unexpectedly, everything falls into his lap.

首先，民主党的热门人选爱德华·肯尼迪在查帕奎迪克事件中自毁前程——他开车冲下桥，抛弃了玛丽·乔·科佩奇恩，然后穿上夹克在酒店阳台上走来走去，假装什么都没发生。

So first of all, the Democratic favorite, who is Edward Kennedy, has destroyed himself at Chappaquiddick by driving into the off the bridge, abandoning Mary Jo Kopecne, and then putting on a blazer and walking around on the balcony of his kind of hotel to try and pretend nothing has happened.

与此同时，华盛顿的水门事件爆发了。

Meanwhile, in Washington, Watergate has erupted.

所有人都认为华盛顿的政治家们腐败不堪。

Everybody assumes that all Washington politicians are really corrupt.

人们纷纷说，我们需要一个局外人来清除腐败，诸如此类的说法。

People are saying, let's have an outsider to drain the swamp, all of this kind of thing.

于是，卡特在民主党初选中脱颖而出。

And so Carter comes through in the democratic primaries.

他大力强调自己是个局外人。

He plays up the fact that he's an outsider.

他是个南方人。

He's a southerner.

他是个福音派基督徒。

He's an evangelical Christian.

他是个民粹主义者，诸如此类的一切。

He's a populist, all of this stuff.

他有一系列广告，展示他穿着漂亮的格子衬衫在农场里散步。

He has these ads where he's walking around his farm in his lovely checked shirt.

他谈到自己喜欢教主日学，而他的承诺——政策主张却极其模糊。

He he talks about how he likes to teach Sunday school, and his promise is his policy prescription is so vague.

我的意思是，这太聪明了。

I mean, it's brilliant.

他迎合了所有人的需求。

It's all things to all men.

他说，人们会问：当你当上总统后，会是什么样子？

He says people say, well, what what will it be like when you're president?

他说，我会给你，但我不会模仿口音，因为我学不会南方口音。

He says, I will give you, and I'm not gonna do the voice because I cannot do a southern accent.

他说：你想让汤姆用他的澳大利亚口音来模仿吗？

He says, do you wanna do it, Tom, in your Australian accent?

不。

No.

你来吧。

You do it.

你来试试。

You go for it.

他说，我会承诺一个政府，它将像美国人民一样优良、正直、善良、能干、富有同情心且充满爱。

He says, I will promise a government that is as good and honest and decent and competent and compassionate and as filled with love as are the American people.

天啊。

God.

充满爱，就像美国人民一样。

As filled with love as are the American people.

是的。

Yeah.

这是实现幸福政府的秘诀。

They're recipe for the happy administration.

人们不是去拿呕吐袋，反而说：‘哦，这真好啊？’

And instead of reaching for the sick bucket, people say, oh, isn't that nice?

这正是我们想要的。

That's what we want.

所以他赢得了提名，接着赢得了总统大选。

So he wins the nomination, and then he wins the presidency.

他击败了杰拉尔德·福特。

He beats Gerald Ford.

现在卡特当上了总统，他干得怎么样？

So now Carter is president, and is he good at it?

我的意思是，你甚至不需要成为吉米·卡特的批评者，就能说他其实并不擅长这份工作。

I mean, I think you you don't even have to be a critic of Jimmy Carter to say he's actually not really good at it.

他在国会山没有任何人脉。

He doesn't have any contacts on Capitol Hill.

他发现与国会合作非常困难。

He finds it really hard to work with Congress.

他天生缺乏魅力。

He's not naturally charming.

我的意思是，他并不散发出温暖感。

I mean, he doesn't exude warmth.

国会山上的人都这么说。

Everybody sort of says this on in Capitol Hill.

他很固执。

He's stubborn.

他不喜欢妥协。

He doesn't like compromising.

他工作极其努力，但这是个经典的故事。

He works incredibly hard, but it's the classic story.

这有点像里希·苏纳克的样子。

It's a bit Rishi Sunak or something.

他工作得几乎太过卖力了。

He works almost too hard.

你知道吗，他认为只要熬夜到凌晨三点处理公文，就能成为一个更好的总统。

You know, he thinks if he stays up till 03:00 in the morning doing his paperwork, he'll be a better president.

但实际上，这意味着他只是过度准备、过度思考每一件事。

And actually, that means he just massively overprepares and overthinks everything.

他早上九点左右出现时，会说：‘我昨晚做梦想出了一个455计划来应对通货膨胀之类的。’

He'll kind of rock up at kind of 09:00 in the morning and say, I've overnight, I've dreamt up a 455 plan to fight inflation or something.

所以，他一开始是不是看起来非常阳光，充满南方人的乐观气息？

So he he he begins, doesn't he, looking very kind of sunny, full of the optimism of the South and all that?

是的。

Yeah.

但很快，他就变得面色灰暗、憔悴不堪。

And very rapidly, he comes to look gray and haggard and worn.

是的。

Yeah.

因为他根本没在睡觉。

Because he's not sleeping.

从长远来看，当他去跑步时，这看起来不会好。

And in the long run, this isn't going to look good when he goes for a run.

不会。

No.

确实不会。

It will not.

看起来不会好。

It will not look good.

而且，实际上，关于出席形象的讨论非常有趣。

And, actually, this discussion of the optics of being present is so interesting.

所以，我认为经常会发生这样的情况：人们会选举某个人。

So it quite often happens, I think, that people will elect somebody.

他们会说：我们现在想要一个普通人。

They'll say, we'd like an ordinary person now.

我们受够了这些烂事儿。

We're sick of all these crap.

他们根本不想那样。

They don't want that at all.

但他们其实也不想要那样。

But they don't really want that.

当法国人选举弗朗索瓦·奥朗德时，他们内心深处真正想要的是一位政治家。

When the French elected Francois Hollande, what they actually always deep down this want is a statesman.

你提到了吉米·卡特的针织开衫。

So you mentioned Jimmy Carter's cardigan.

他在一次全国电视直播中穿着针织开衫出现，并说：我希望大家都把恒温器调低一些。

He turned up on national television, an early national broadcast wearing a cardigan, and he said, I'd like everybody to turn their thermostats down.

你不能这么做，对吧？

You can't do that, can you?

这可不是帝王式的总统作风。

That's not the imperial presidency.

对。

No.

完全不是。

Not at all.

所以就是这么回事。

So there's that.

还有那件毛衣的问题。

There's the cardigan issue.

还有另一个问题。

There's also the issue.

他是个极度微观管理、爱插手的人。

He's a massive micromanager and a meddler.

哦，是的。

Oh, yes.

众所周知，还有网球场那件事，你特别喜欢，对吧

Famously, the the tennis court thing, which you you love, don't

吗？

you?

是的。

Yeah.

我最喜欢的吉米·卡特冷知识是他负责处理网球场的预订。

My favorite Jimmy Carter fact is that he handles the the tennis court bookings.

汤姆·约翰逊。

Tom Johnson.

多姆·索·约翰逊，一位来自过去的老朋友，我们之前的制片人，正在这次通话中，他立刻加入了聊天。

Dom So Johnson, a blast from the past, our former producer, is is in on this call, and he's immediately come he's he's jumped into the chat.

网球场预订。

Tennis court bookings.

关于吉米·卡特，我们总是提到两件事：一是网球场预订，另一件涉及沼泽的事，忠实的播客听众们正屏息以待。

It's one of two things about Jimmy Carter that we always mention, the tennis court bookings, and another thing that involves a swamp, which will also be which regular listeners to this podcast will be waiting for with bated breath.

关于吉米·卡特，只有两个值得了解的事实。

There are only two facts about Jimmy Carter worth knowing.

这位可是掌控着世界上最强大国家的领导人。

So this is the man at the helm of the world's most powerful country.

他该怎么处理美国的外交政策呢？

And how is he gonna run America's foreign policy?

他基本上表示，不会再有越南战争了。

Well, he's basically said, no more Vietnam wars.

他说，我的道德外交政策将体现美国人民的善良与慷慨。

My ethical foreign policy, he says, will reflect the decency and generosity of the American people.

因此，这时人们都在擦眼泪。

So, again, people are wiping away tears at this point.

我们不会让尼克·格林兰得逞。

We won't Nick Greenland.

我保证。

Promise.

但公平地说，卡特在外交政策上也有几项成功，最著名的是他在1978年斡旋的埃及和以色列之间的戴维营协议。

So to be fair to Carty, he has a couple of foreign policy successes, most famously the Camp David Accords between Egypt and Israel, which he sort of mediates in 1978.

但他深受越南战争已发生这一事实的束缚。

But he is hidebound by the fact that, you know, Vietnam has happened.

普遍认为美国在冷战中正在倒退。

There's a general sense The US is going backwards in the Cold War.

苏联在非洲、埃塞俄比亚、扎伊尔和安哥拉等地进行了干预。

There was Soviet intervention in Africa and Ethiopia and Zaire and Angola and so on.

人们谈论着当时所谓的‘危机弧线’，它从南部非洲一直延伸到东南亚。

People are talking about this what they call at the time, the arc of crisis that runs all the way from Southern Africa to Southeast Asia.

他们认为亚洲和非洲将脱离西方的轨道。

They say basically Asia's gonna and Africa are gonna slip out of the Western orbit.

资本主义正在退缩。

Capitalism is in retreat.

苏联的帝国主义更加肆无忌惮。

Soviet imperialism is emboldened.

我们应当停止对他们的绥靖。

We should stop appeasing them.

我们应该终止缓和政策。

We should get rid of detente.

所以，我可以问你一下，多米尼克吗？

So can I ask you, Dominic?

卡特天生是鸽派吗？还是说他的福音派基督教信仰给了他一种可以随时利用的倾向？

Is is Carter naturally a dove, or does his, say, his evangelical Christianity give him a bit of an edge that he can draw on when he feels he needs it?

他很模棱两可。

He is ambiguous.

他一开始稍微偏向鸽派，我认为主要是因为他从未真正思考过外交政策。

So he starts off a little bit more dovish, largely, I think, because he's never really thought about foreign policy.

他一直只是，你知道的，佐治亚州的州长。

He's always been, you know, he's governor of Georgia.

他并不需要真正考虑世界事务，或者作为佐治亚州州长该考虑的事。

He didn't really have to think about world affairs or new governor of Georgia.

事实上，人们曾对他提出过批评。

And actually, it was a criticism that people had of him.

他们说他根本不懂如何处理国际事务。

They said he won't know anything about how to handle world affairs.

起初，他采取了更为温和的立场，但到1978年左右，他的态度明显转变，对苏联变得强硬得多。

At first, he strikes a more dovish line, but by about 1978, he's definitely changed his tune, and he is much harder on the Soviet Union.

他的福音派基督教信仰在其中发挥了巨大作用吗？

Does his evangelical Christianity play a massive part in that?

我认为实际上并没有发挥太大的作用。

I don't think it does play a massive part, actually.

我只是问一下，因为这种将世界划分为善与恶的观念——当然，里根会大力利用这一点——但这也是霍梅尼等人看待世界的方式。

I just ask because that sense of of the world being divided into good and evil, which, of course, Reagan will make great play with, but this is also going to be part of the perspective that the Ayatollahs bring to the to their understanding of the world.

是的。

Yeah.

卡特确实对世界有着强烈的道德化认知。

And and Carter definitely has a very moralistic sense of the world.

他能够自如地使用善与恶的语言，就像里根那样，也像同一时期英国的撒切尔夫人那样。

And he's comfortable with the language of good and evil in a way that that Reagan is, in a way that Margaret Thatcher is in Britain in similar period.

但也许那些更年长的政治家对此会略感不适。

But there may be older politicians of them Slightly wince.

是的。

Yeah.

我会让他们感到有点不自在。

I would make them slightly wince.

他们会认为这有点粗俗吧。

They would think of it as a little bit gauche, maybe.

无论如何，这个背景解释了为什么卡特会全力支持沙阿。

Anyway, this context explains, I think, why Carter goes all in on the Shah.

所以在他成为总统之前，我猜吉米·卡特根本从未想过伊朗。

So before he became president, I'm guessing that Jimmy Carter had literally never thought about Iran at all.

我的意思是，如果你是佐治亚州的州长，根本不需要操心伊朗事务。

I mean, if you're the governor of Georgia, you never have to worry about Iranian affairs.

给你一个美国电视圈的小知识。

Here's a here's a US TV fact for you.

上世纪七十年代，美国主流电视新闻每年对伊朗的报道通常只有五分钟，而这五分钟大多用来报道沙阿的晚宴、他去滑雪，或者他那些年轻而奢华的伴侣。

The US network news in the nineteen seventies typically discussed Iran for five minutes a year, and those five minutes were generally taken up with coverage of the shah's dinners, or him going skiing, or his glamorous you know, his oddly young and glamorous companions.

沙阿与性感封面女郎一同亮相。

The Shah steps out with glamorous centerfold.

没错。

Exactly.

这正是实际情况。

That's exactly what it was.

现在，卡特知道沙阿因人权记录而受到自由派的批评，因此他给沙阿施加了一些压力，要求其改善这一状况。

Now, Carter was aware that the Shah was getting a bit of a kicking from liberals about his human rights record, and he put a little bit of pressure on the Shah to ameliorate this.

实际上，在1977年，沙阿表示：说得对。

And actually, in 1977, the Shah said, fair enough.

我们不再折磨人了，我会让红十字会进来检查我的监狱，我们还会允许诗人和作家——这里又有诗人了，汤姆。

We're gonna stop torturing people, and I'll let the Red Cross in to have a look at my prisons, and we shall allow poets and writers here here are poets again for you, Tom.

我们会允许他们集会，讨论自由思想和政治改革等等。

We shall allow them to have meetings and talk about liberal ideas and political reforms and so on and so forth.

然而，卡特并不想在这上面走得太远。

However, Carter doesn't wanna go too far on this.

因此，在1977年6月，他任命了一位名叫威廉·沙利文的新驻伊朗大使，他将成为本系列中的一个重要角色。

So in June 1977, he appoints a new ambassador to Iran called William Sullivan, who's gonna be a big character in this series.

威廉·沙利文是一位职业外交官。

William Sullivan is a career diplomat.

他有一头白色的蓬松发型。

He's got this white kind of bouffant hair.

他被视为一个难以驾驭的人。

He's regarded as a loose cannon.

在美国外交丑闻中，我们最喜欢这种难以驾驭的人。

We love a loose cannon in American diplomatic debacles.

我们确实如此。

We definitely do.

他非常直言不讳。

So he's very outspoken.

他非常尖刻。

He's very acerbic.

他无法容忍蠢人。

He doesn't suffer fools gladly.

他们把他派往德黑兰大使馆。

They point him to to the embassy in Tehran.

卡特对他说：听着，我希望你把国王当作我们的亲密朋友。

And Carter says to him, look, I want you to treat the Shah as our close friend.

他对我们来说是一个极其重要的盟友。

He's a really important ally for us.

伊朗，正如我所说，是我们对波斯湾地区稳定与安全的保障，所有这些。

Iran is, and I quote, our guarantee of stability and security in the Persian Gulf, all of this.

沙利文说：你不是那个重视人权的人吗？

And Sullivan says, aren't you the human rights guy?

意思是，人权对你来说真的那么重要吗？

Like, is human rights that important to you?

卡特实际上对他说：别想得太复杂了。

And Carter actually says to him, don't don't overthink this.

别太纠结于人权问题了。

Like, don't worry too much about the human rights thing.

伊朗对我们至关重要，尤其是因为我们在中国边境附近设有监听站，这对我们的意义重大。

Iran is so important to us, not least because we have listening posts on the Soviet border with Iran that are massively important to us.

所以别在人权问题上太过较真。

So don't get too carried away with this human rights business.

是的。

Yeah.

我们希望沙阿停止用电击棒攻击民众，但让他站在我们这边至关重要。

We'd like the shah to stop attacking people with cattle prods, but having him on side is so important.

因此，沙阿于1977年11月访问华盛顿。

So the Shah comes to Washington in November 1977.

卡特为他举行了盛大的欢迎仪式。

Carter rolls out the red carpet for him.

之后，卡特公开表示，沙阿非常出色。

And afterwards, Carter says publicly, the Shah is brilliant.

我非常喜欢沙阿。

I love the Shah.

他比任何其他领导人更令人印象深刻，当然比我见过的任何欧洲领导人都要出色。

He's more impressive than any other leader, certainly any European leader I've ever met.

汤姆，这让人如此痛心的是，沙阿此时已经见过詹姆斯·卡拉汉了。

And what's so hurtful about this, Tom, is the Shah at this point has met James Callahan.

那他在想什么？

So what is he thinking?

识人不清。

Terrible judge of character.

我们还能说什么呢？

What can we say?

识人不清。

Terrible judge of character.

因此，这为这次访问设定了背景，卡特随后让沙阿在1977年除夕返回德黑兰。

So this is what sets the scene for this trip, that Carter then makes him return to Tehran on New Year's Eve nineteen seventy seven.

而且，这又是一个极其奢华的场景。

And, again, it's a very gilded scene.

一位美国记者说，这感觉就像路易十四时代的凡尔赛宫。

One American reporter said it felt like Versailles in the days of Louis the fourteenth.

这里有鱼子酱，有唐培里侬香槟，有罗斯·帕特里奇，还有一大份火焰冰淇淋。

There's caviar, there's Dom Perignon, there's Rose Partridge, there's this gigantic ice cream flambe.

卡特发表了演讲，他说：我问过我的妻子罗莎琳，当我们身在海外时，她想在哪里度过新年夜。

And Carter gives this speech, and he says, I asked my wife Rosalyn where she'd like to spend New Year's Eve because we were gonna be abroad.

她说：我最爱的人就是沙阿和法拉赫皇后。

And she said, the people I love most are the Shah and Empress Farah.

所有人都说：哦，这真是太美好了。

And everybody says, oh, isn't that lovely?

卡特说，当你读到这篇演讲稿时，简直难以置信。

And Carter says I mean, it's unbelievable when you read the speech.

他说：我真的很重视人权，而让我感到欣慰的是，我了解沙阿。

He says, I really love human rights, and what's nice for me is I know the shah.

我知道你也热爱人权。

I know you love human rights too.

他说，我对你智慧、判断力、敏感性和洞察力的印象极为深刻。

How profoundly impressed I've been, he says, with your wisdom, your judgment, your sensitivity, and insight.

他说，当我们驾车穿过德黑兰时，我看到成千上万的伊朗民众站在街道两旁，面带友善的表情欢迎我。

How moved I was when we drove through Tehran, and I saw literally thousands of Iranian citizens standing beside the street with a friendly attitude expressing their welcome to me.

他说，而在他们身旁，还有成千上万的美国公民——如今有五万名美国人生活在伊朗，他们站在那里欢迎他们的总统，而这个国家早已将他们视为己出，让他们感到宾至如归。

He says, and beside them, thousands of American citizens, there are now 50,000 Americans in Iran who stood there welcoming their president in a nation which has taken them to heart and made them feel at home.

但卡特从未想到这一点。

Well, it never occurs to Carter.

卡特对国际事务如此缺乏经验，以至于他说这些话时，根本没想到自己已经将整个总统任期押在了一个注定失败的政权上。

Carter, is so inexperienced in world affairs, it never occurs to him when he's saying these words that he has gambled his entire presidency on a doomed regime.

但是，汤姆，就在八天后，戈姆市燃起了第一把火，一场将永远改变一切的革命就此爆发。

But, Tom, just eight days later in the city of Gom, the first fires are lit in a revolution that will change things forever.

而这场大火的中心，是一位对伊朗及其人民有着截然不同愿景的人——霍梅尼大阿亚图拉。

And at the center of this conflagration is a man who has a very different vision for Iran and its people, and that is the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini.

太激动人心了。

Thrilling stuff.

广告后我们将听一听阿亚图拉的讲话。

We will be back after the break to hear from the Ayatollah.

我们所有的苦难都是帝国主义者造成的。

All our miseries are caused by the imperialists.

如果伊朗政府不保护他们，民众会活活剥了他们的皮。

If they were not protected by the Iranian government, the people would skin them alive.

我们国库里的每一分钱都被流入了美国人的口袋。

Everything in our treasury is emptied into the pockets of America.

如果还有剩余，也都进了国王和他的帮凶手里。

And if there is anything left, it goes to the shah and his gang.

他们用人民的钱为自己购买海外别墅，把银行账户塞得满满的，而国家却在挨饿。

They buy themselves foreign villas and stuff their bank accounts with the people's money while the nation starves.

所以，勇敢的伊斯兰儿女们，站起来吧。

So brave sons of Islam, stand up.

去跟人民谈谈。

Talk to the people.

向大众讲真话。

Tell the truth to the masses.

唤醒街头和集市的人民。

Rouse the people in the streets and the bazaars.

唤醒我们的学生。

Rouse our students.

唤醒我们朴实的工人和农民，让我们成为圣战者。

Rouse our simple hearted workers and peasants, and let us become holy warriors.

欢迎回到《历史其余部分》，刚才你听到的是霍梅尼大阿亚图拉的悦耳嗓音。

So welcome back to The Rest is History, and what you heard there were the dulcet tones of the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini.

当时他正在伊拉克的纳杰夫流亡，时间是1978年2月。

And he was speaking from exile in Iraq, in the city of Najaf in February 1978.

多米尼克，霍梅尼大阿亚图拉是二十世纪革命的标志性人物，对吧？

And, Dominic, the Ayatollah is one of the iconic figures of twentieth century revolution, isn't he?

他和列宁、毛泽东齐名。

He's up there with Lenin, with Mao.

人人都认识他。

Everyone recognises him.

他那长长的胡须、浓密的眉毛，以及总是带着笑意的表情。

His long beard, his bristling eyebrows, his general expression of fun.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Exactly.

尤其是美国人，会把他视为历史上最伟大的反派之一。

And Americans in particular will think of him as one of history's great villains.

但正如常言所说，对于那些被看作伟大反派或伟大英雄的人，探究其标志性形象背后的真实面貌总是很有意思的。

But as always with people who are regarded, you know, as as great villains or indeed great heroes, it's it's always interesting to dig into the kind of the reality behind the iconic image.

他出生于伊朗中部的霍梅因小镇，大概在1900年。

He was born in the market town of Khomein in Central Iran, probably in 1900.

他来自一个条件不错的家庭。

And he came from a reasonably well off family.

他的父亲和祖父都是神职人员。

His father and grandfather had both been clerics.

他在蹒跚学步时父亲在一场斗殴中丧生，之后由他的叔叔和婶婶抚养长大。

His father was killed in a fight when he was a toddler, and he was raised by his uncle and aunt.

据所有人说，他是个非常聪明的孩子。

He was, by all accounts, a very clever boy.

据说他六岁时就开始读《古兰经》。

He began supposedly began reading the Koran when he was six.

他足球踢得非常好。

He was very good at football, apparently.

他踢足球。

He played football.

他热爱诗歌，实际上，他一生都热爱诗歌。

Poetry, and, actually, he loves poetry all his life.

但他显然非常严肃且内敛。

But he was clearly very serious and reserved.

他可能和吉米·卡特相处得不错。

He probably got on well with Jimmy Carter, actually.

嗯，这不正是讽刺之处吗？

Well, that's the irony, isn't it?

我的意思是，整个冲突过程中，美国和伊朗之间存在着某种相似之处。

I mean, that there are kind of echoes between America and Iran throughout this entire conflict.

我想说的是霍梅尼的成长背景，你提到他父亲在一场斗殴中丧生。

I mean, just to say about Khomeini's upbringing, that the background to it, you said that his father was was killed in a brawl.

我的意思是，这正是第一次世界大战爆发前及战争期间的时期，当时非常暴力。

I mean, this is the the period of the that build up to the First World War and the First World War itself, and it it is very violent.

是的。

Yes.

我认为当他最终进入神学院时，这为他提供了一个逃避外界混乱的避风港，这对他将伊斯兰教与和平联系起来产生了深远影响。

And I think that when he he ends up going to a a seminary, and I think that that provides him with a kind of refuge from the chaos of life outside and must be hugely formative in his association of Islam with peace.

完全正确。

Completely.

完全正确。

Completely.

正如你所说，他去了一个叫库姆的神学院，那是一座圣城，因为那里有法蒂玛·宾特·穆萨的陵墓，她是第八位什叶派伊玛目的妹妹。

So as you say, he goes to the seminary in this place called Qom, which is a holy city because it has the shrine of somebody called Fatima bint Musa, who is the sister of the eighth Shia imam.

我们目前不需要深入探讨这一点。

And we don't need to massively get into that right now.

总之，那是一座圣城。

Anyway, it's a holy city.

他在神学院学习。

He's at the seminary.

正如你所说，他在卡诺找到了安全感。

He finds security in Kano, as you say.

他在那里学习法律。

He does law there.

他研究哲学，对吧？

He does philosophy, doesn't he?

希腊哲学。

Greek philosophy.

是的，但哲学才是他的真正重点，尤其是对希腊哲学的专注。

He does, But philosophy is his real focus, and it it it's particular focus on Greek philosophy.

所以是亚里士多德，特别是柏拉图，以及他们如何被伊斯兰传统、尤其是什叶派思想所诠释。

So Aristotle and particularly Plato, and how they have been mediated by the kind of traditions of Islamic and specifically Shia thinking.

没错。

Exactly.

所以霍梅尼是个认真而聪明的人。

So Khomeini is he's a serious and very clever person.

他写诗，研究诗歌。

He's he's writes poetry, studies poetry.

他对神秘主义非常感兴趣。

He's very interested in mysticism.

他成为神学院最受尊敬的学者之一。

He becomes one of the most respected scholars at the seminary.

我的意思是，他其实让我想起了教皇约翰·保罗二世，他也曾是足球运动员、诗人，后来成为七八十年代极具影响力的宗教领袖。

I mean, you know who he actually also reminds me of is pope John Paul the second, also a footballer, a poet, becomes a titanic religious leader of the seventies and eighties.

两者之间确实有某些相似之处。

Certain parallel there.

是的。

Yeah.

到他大约50岁时，人们开始称他为阿亚图拉，这是对学识特别渊博的学者的尊称。

So by the time he's about 50, people are calling him Ayatollah, which is a a term of respect for an especially learned scholar.

每个人都承认他是一位极具魅力和令人钦佩的人物。

And everybody acknowledges he's an incredibly charismatic and impressive person.

他总是穿着黑色长袍，戴着黑色头巾。

He always wears this black robe, this black turban.

他留着胡须。

He's he's got his beard.

他仪容整洁完美。

He's perfectly groomed.

他有着一种令人着迷的坚定目光。

He has this hypnotic unwavering stare.

他总是显得不可动摇且令人敬畏。

He always looks implacable and formidable.

他从不在公众面前露出微笑或大笑。

He never is seen smiling or laughing in public.

这是因为他非常注重自己的严肃性与尊严，他身上有一种简朴的气质，这反映在他的私人生活中。

This is because he's very conscious of his seriousness and his dignity, and there's a sort of austerity to him, which is reflected in his private life.

他娶妻子时，她还只有十几岁。

So he married his wife when she was in her early teens.

他不像国王那样，不会让人从巴黎的马克西姆餐厅空运菜肴过来。

He's not a big you know, unlike the shah, he doesn't have dishes flown in from Maxims Of Paris.

他拥有的东西很少。

He doesn't own much.

他平时会花时间放松一下。

He spends his time, you know, to relax.

他祈祷。

He prays.

他冥想。

He meditates.

他去散步。

He goes for a walk.

所以也许我们应该聊一聊。

So maybe we should talk a little bit.

我知道你想谈谈，汤姆，关于什叶派伊斯兰教对我们故事的重要性。

I know you want to talk a bit, Tom, about the importance of Shia Islam to our story.

这非常根本。

It's so fundamental.

只是为了让人们理解我们指的是什么。

Just to give people a sense of what we mean.

在穆罕默德去世后伊斯兰征服的早期，基本上就谁该继任的问题存在分歧，对吧？

In the early days of the Islamic conquests after the death of Muhammad, there was basically a disagreement about who would succeed, wasn't there?

什叶派认为，伊斯兰社群走上了错误的道路，领导权本应留在穆罕默德女婿阿里家族中。

And Shiites believe that the Islamic community took a wrong path, that the leadership should have remained in the family of Muhammad's son-in-law, Ali.

具体来说，多米尼克，是先知本人的家族，因为阿里娶了穆罕默德的女儿。

Well, specifically, Dominic, the family of the prophet himself, because Ali is married to the daughter of Muhammad.

因此，他们的儿子哈桑和侯赛因是先知的孙子，但他们并未继任。

And so their sons, Hassan and Hussein, are the grandchildren of the prophet, but they don't succeed.

他们最终被杀害了。

They end up being killed.

我们稍后会谈到这一点。

And we'll come to that in a minute.

随着时间推移，他们的派别逐渐演变为一个拥有自身历史、传统和仪式的独立教派。

And over time, their faction basically evolves into its own sect with its own history and its own traditions and its own rituals.

是的。

Yes.

所以他们是什叶派阿里，即阿里的追随者。

So they are the Shi'at Ali, the party of Allah.

所以这就是

So that's where

什叶派一词的由来。

Shia comes from.

什叶派或什叶穆斯林。

Shia or Shiites.

如今，他们在世界上的穆斯林中约占百分之十到十五。

So they are now in the world today about 10 to 15% of Muslims.

绝大多数穆斯林是逊尼派，但什叶派或什叶穆斯林是少数派。

The vast majority of Muslims are Sunni, but the Shia or Shiites are this minority.

自16世纪萨法维王朝将什叶派定为国教以来，伊朗就一直是什叶派国家。

And Iran had been a Shiite since about the 1500s when the Safavid dynasty imposed it as the state religion.

这成为伊朗身份认同中极其重要的一部分，因为它使他们区别于周边讲阿拉伯语的逊尼派穆斯林国家。

It became a really, really important part of Iranian identity because it distinguished them from the neighboring Arabic speaking countries, which were sunny Muslim.

这让伊朗感觉自己与众不同。

So it made it made Iran feel different.

这对我们的故事产生了两个重大影响。

And it had two massive consequences for our story.

其中一个就是，我知道你稍后会进一步谈到，什叶派信仰体系的核心是压迫与权威的理念，以及那些被过度权威压迫的正义、简朴的殉道者和受害者。

So one of them is that I mean, I know you're gonna say a little bit more about this, that at the heart of the Shia belief system is this idea that you have it's a it's a belief system based on the idea of oppression and authority, and virtuous, austere martyrs and victims who are being oppressed by overweening state authority or overweening authority of one kind or another.

在这个信仰体系中，最初的受害者和殉道者是先知的女婿阿里，他曾任哈里发，但被暗杀。

And the primal victims and martyrs in this belief system are Ali, the son-in-law of the prophet, who had a caliph who had been assassinated.

更具体地说，是阿里的儿子、先知的孙子——我们之前提到过的侯赛因，他在伊拉克一个叫卡尔巴拉的地方，于六月被阿拔斯王朝的人杀害，而阿拔斯王朝后来建立了帝国统治。

But more particularly, Ali's son, the grandson of the prophet, we've already mentioned him, Hussein, who was killed in a battle in Iraq, a place called Kabbalah in June by the Ahmads who are the the dynasty who then establish a kind of imperial rule.

对什叶派而言，这不仅标志着晚期古代政治的转折点，更是一场宇宙层面的灾难。

And this for the Shia is where everything goes wrong, not just in the context of kind of late antique politics, but on a cosmic scale.

因为对他们来说，这关乎邪恶对正义的胜利，关乎穆罕默德先知使命的偏离，而这一使命本是为全人类服务的，是上帝为世界所制定计划的体现。

Because this for them is about the triumph of evil over good, and it's about the derailing of Muhammad's prophetic mission, which is a mission for the whole of humanity, the embodiment of God's plan for the world.

因此，侯赛因在卡尔巴拉战役中的死亡被视为最初的灾难，也被纪念为侯赛因所做出的伟大自我牺牲。

And so Hussein's death in this battle at Ka'bullah is seen as the primal catastrophe, and it is commemorated as a kind of great act of self sacrifice on the part of Hussein.

他为全人类的福祉献出了自己的生命。

He's laying down his life for the good of of of all of all the world.

人们会注意到，这与耶稣受难日的死亡有微妙的相似之处。

It will strike people that there are slight echoes there of Good Friday of the death of Christ.

我的意思是，我认为这并非巧合。

I mean, I think that's not coincidental.

当时伊朗和伊拉克有很多基督徒，我认为这种牺牲观念正是受到了基督教对人类牺牲理解的影响。

There are a lot of Christians in this period in Iran and in Iraq, and I think it is channeling those kind of Christian understandings of of of sacrifice on the part of humanity.

因此，侯赛因遇难的日子——伊斯兰历元月第十日的阿舒拉日，是什叶派最重要的哀悼日，本质上是他们的受难日。

And so the day of Hussein's death, Ashura, which is the tenth day of the first month of the Muslim calendar, Muharram, is the great day of mourning for the Shia, and it is essentially their kind of Good Friday.

是的。

Yeah.

而这反过来又塑造了一种强烈的末世论世界观。

And this in turn feeds into a strongly apocalyptic perspective on the world.

因为如果事情已经出了差错，那么终有一天，上帝会介入，确保一切重回正轨。

Because if things have gone wrong, then at some point, God will intervene to ensure that they will go right.

将要出现的这个人被称为马赫迪，他是第十二任伊玛目。

And the person who will emerge is this figure called the Mahdi, who is the twelfth of the imams.

伊玛目是一些肩负着宇宙使命、为世界建立秩序的人。

And the imams are people with a kind of cosmic mission to write and order the world.

这些伊玛目中的第一位是阿里。

And the first of these imams had been Ali.

侯赛因是第三位。

Hussein had been the third.

第十二任伊玛目，即隐遁的伊玛目——马赫迪，将会现身。

The twelfth imam, the hidden imam, the Mahdi, he will appear.

根据什叶派传统，他将为在卡尔巴拉流下的侯赛因之血复仇。

And according to Shiite tradition, he will avenge the blood of Hussein that was spilled at Kabbalah.

正如阿巴斯·阿米纳特在其杰出著作《末世论伊斯兰与伊朗什叶派》中所言，这将开启一场末日般的宇宙大战，发生在复活日和世界末日之前。

And this will, to quote Abbas Aminat in his brilliant book, Apocalyptic Islam and Iranian Shiism, It will initiate an apocalyptic battle of cosmic proportion that precedes the day of resurrection and the end of time.

人们或许会觉得，将晚期古代神学置于二十世纪七十年代政治背景下讨论显得有些晦涩，但事实绝对不是这样——我认为，如果不了解这种末世论世界观对阿亚图拉及其追随者的重要性，就根本无法理解伊朗革命。

And people may feel that all this discussion of, you know, late antique theology in the context of nineteen seventies politics might seem a bit recherche, but it absolutely isn't because it is impossible, I think, to understand the Iranian revolution without an awareness of how important this apocalyptic understanding of the world is to the Ayatollah and to, you know, to to his followers.

正是因为美国外交政策制定者完全不了解这一点，所以当阿亚图拉登场时，他们根本不知道该如何应对。

And it's precisely because the American foreign policy establishment have no comprehension of this at all that they don't really know how to handle the Ayatollah when he emerges onto the scene.

没错。

Exactly.

因此，人们需要记住，阿亚图拉有一种强烈的受害感和苦难意识。

So for people to keep in their heads, the ayatollah has this sense of victimhood and suffering.

他们有一个在历史上具有重大意义的特定日子——阿舒拉节，同时还怀有末日启示的观念，诸如此类。

They have this particular day that's massively important, that's grounded in history, a shura, and they have this apocalyptic sense of the end of days and all of this kind of thing.

所以这是第一点。

So that's one thing.

其次，需要记住的是，在什叶派伊斯兰教中，地方神职人员极为重要。

And then the other thing to bear in mind about Shia Islam is that local clergy are really, really important in this world.

因此，霍梅尼的传记作者巴吉尔·莫因对此有非常精彩的论述。

So Baqir Moyn, who is Khomeini's biographer, has really, really good sections about this.

在什叶派伊斯兰教中，毛拉、神职人员或牧师一直拥有巨大的地方影响力。

So the mullahs, the the clerics or priests, I guess, in Shia Islam always had tremendous local clout.

因此，在当时被称为波斯、后来称为伊朗的这些小镇和村庄里，神职人员就是法官。

So in these small towns and villages, in what was then called Persia and later Iran, The cleric was the judge.

他还是教师。

He was the teacher.

他就像一个讲故事的人。

He was a kind of storyteller.

他是一个极其、极其重要的人物。

He was a massively, massively important figure.

他能读会写，而大多数人却不能。

He could read and write, and most people couldn't.

神职人员处理你所有的法律事务。

The cleric handled all your legal transactions.

神职人员常常在小型地方充当仲裁者和调解人。

The cleric acted as a kind of arbiter and a mediator, often in small local places.

他是主要的权威人物。

He was the main authority figure.

人们依赖的是他，而不是国家，他们常常将神职人员视为对国家的一种制衡力量，而非国家的一部分。

And people looked to him, not to the state, and they saw the clerics often as a kind of counterweight to the state, not part of it.

是的。

Yes.

而且，人们还必须牢记的是，神职人员并不渴望控制国家。

And, actually, also crucial for people to bear in mind is that clerics pointedly did not aspire to control the state.

他们并不追求成为伊朗的领导人。

They did not aspire to the leadership, say, of Iran.

这一点再次根植于什叶派神学的独特性质，因为什叶派认为合法的统治——在波斯语中称为‘监护权’——随着阿里和侯赛因的逝去而终结了。

And this, again, is rooted in the kind of distinctive character of Shiite theology because Shiites see legitimate governance, what guardianship, veleiat, it's called in in Persian, as having perished with Ali and Hussein.

因此，纵观历史，什叶派一直拒绝所谓合法国家的概念。

And therefore, basically, throughout history, Shiites have rejected the very notion of a kind of legitimate state.

他们认为这样的国家根本不存在，只有在马赫迪降临之后，这种情况才会改变。

They they don't think it exists, and this will only change with the coming of the Mahdi.

正如阿马纳特所言，认为所有世俗权力皆为不义的信念，几乎被推向了无政府主义理想主义的境地。

And, to quote Amanat, the belief that all temporal powers are considered unjust was carried almost to the point of anarchistic idealism.

因此，对于反对沙阿的什叶派教士来说，这一点激励了他们反对他的统治，但也给他们带来了一个问题：谁来填补这个空缺？

So this, for Shiite clerics opposed to the shah, it inspires them in their opposition to his rule, but it also leaves leaves them with a problem, which is that who is gonna step into the gap?

因为什叶派传统中并没有任何内容表明教士会迈出这一步。

Because there's nothing in the Shiite tradition that would say that clerics would take that step.

对。

Right.

关于这些教士，我再最后提一点。

So one last point about these clerics.

他们通常生活得很富裕，因为他们在当地社区中是权威人物等等。

They often are quite well off, because they're authority figures in their local communities and whatnot.

在城镇和城市中，他们与经营集市和市场的商人及手工业者建立了非常紧密的联系。

And in the towns and the cities, they become very closely connected to the merchant and artisan classes who basically run the bazaars, the marketplaces.

事实上，正是这种城市小店主、手工业者与宗教精英之间的联盟，推动了伊朗革命。

And this actually is the social nexus that powers the Iranian revolution, the alliance of these shopkeepers and artisans in the cities with the clerical elite.

现在，教士们的政治独立性对他们来说至关重要。

Now the clerics' political independence is massively, massively important to them.

这是他们政治身份的重要组成部分。

It's a huge part of their political identity.

但在霍梅尼的一生中，他与德黑兰政府始终存在紧张关系。

But all through the Ayatollah Khomeini's life, there's been tension with the state in Tehran.

我在前半部分提到，他的父亲在20世纪30年代就是一个现代化支持者。

I mentioned in the first half that his father in the nineteen thirties had been a modernizer.

他和土耳其的凯末尔属于同一类人。

He was very much cut from the same cloth as Ataturk in Turkey.

实际上，对于还记得我们之前那系列节目的人来说，他有点像彼得大帝。

So a little bit Peter the Great, actually, for people who remember that series that we did.

所以礼萨·巴列维希望真正实现伊朗的电气化，推行身份证制度，建设铁路，让人们穿西式服装。

So Rezaar Parlevi had wanted to electrify, literally electrify Iran to bring in ID cards, to have railways, to have people wear western clothes.

他还试图压制人们佩戴头巾和缠头巾。

He he tried to clamp down on people wearing veils and turbans.

他甚至命令军队官员强迫神职人员剃掉胡须。

He even got his military officers to try to shave off clerics' beards.

简直就是彼得大帝。

Fairy Peter the Great.

宗教学者们极其憎恨这一点，他们说，这显然是巴列维王朝作为西方暴发户和傀儡的典型例证，他们完全不合法。

The clerics absolutely hated it, and they said this is a classic example of why the Parlevi dynasty are western parvenus and puppets, and they're just they're totally legitimate.

为了明确一下，这显然在意识形态层面是一回事，但也被视为对他们经济地位的攻击。

And just to be clear, this is obviously on one level ideological, but it is also seen as an attack on their economic standing.

是的。

Yes.

尤其是在二十世纪六十年代，情况更是如此。

It is exactly even more so in the nineteen sixties.

在二十世纪六十年代，雷扎的儿子成为了国王，国王发起了一项他称之为‘白色革命’的宏大现代化运动。

So in the nineteen sixties, Reza's son is now Shah, and the Shah launches a thing that she calls the white revolution, which is this big modernization drive.

他以为这会让他非常受欢迎。

And he thinks he wants he thinks this will make him very popular.

他说，让我们开展公共工程。

He says, let's have public works.

让我们进行土地改革。

Let's have land reform.

让我们鼓励人们开展扫盲运动，让人们学会读写。

Let's encourage people to have a literacy drive so people can read and write.

让妇女拥有选举权。

Let's give women the vote.

给予妇女更多权利。

Let's give women more rights.

有机会穿迷你裙。

The chance to wear miniskirts.

对。

Right.

让我们扩大国家教育。

Let's get let's expand state education.

为什么你不该由受过训练的老师，而不是当地的神职人员来教导呢？

Why shouldn't you be taught by trained teachers rather than the local cleric?

现在，当地的神职人员对此非常反感，原因多种多样。

Now the local clerics do not like this at all for all kinds of reasons.

他们中的许多人来自地主家庭，因此他们的庄园将被拆分并分给穷人。

Many of them come from land owning families, so their estates are the ones that will be broken up and distributed to the poor.

法律改革方面，我之前提到过，他们扮演着律师、法官或公证人的角色，将会失去部分权力。

The legal reforms, their role, I mentioned before that they play the part of the lawyer or the judge or the notary, they're gonna lose some of that authority.

如果沙阿推行这些教育改革，他们也将失去对教育的控制。

They will also lose control of education if the shah brings in all these educational reforms.

他们认为，这不仅仅是颠覆我们的传统。

And they're like, well, this is it's not just ripping up our traditions.

这是对我们生活方式和地方地位的巨大威胁。

This is a massive threat to our way of life and our local standing.

正是在二十世纪六十年代的这个阶段，霍梅尼决定步入政坛。

And it's at this point in the nineteen sixties that Khomeini decides to enter politics.

于是，他站出来反对这一切，并发表了一系列讲道，称沙阿是一个暴君。

So he steps forward as the guy who's standing up against all this, and he says he gives a series of sermons in which he says, the shah is a tyrant.

他是个叛徒。

He is a traitor.

他是美国和以色列的傀儡，而以色列在教士们的阴谋论中早已成为头号敌人。

He is the puppet of The United States and of Israel, which has already become the great enemy in the sort of demonology of the of the clerics.

他说，他父亲被驱逐了，而这位可怜的、卑微的国王，如果他不改过自新，也会被赶下台。

He says, know, his father was kicked out, and the shah, this miserable wretched man, he'll be kicked out as well if he doesn't change his ways.

国王下令逮捕了他。

The shah has him arrested.

他被软禁了一段时间。

He spends time under house arrest.

随后他被释放，到了1964年，他又重新发起攻势。

Then he's allowed out in and then in 1964, he goes back on the offensive.

这一次，有趣的是，我认为这揭示了霍梅尼吸引力的关键所在。

And this time, very interestingly, and I think this is an an important clue to Khomeini's appeal.

霍梅尼公开抨击的是一项协议，该协议将给予美国军事人员在伊朗惹上麻烦时的法律豁免权。

What Khomeini speaks out about is a deal that will give legal immunity to American military personnel if they get into trouble in Iran.

这是一项非常常见的协议，美国在设有军事基地的地方都会签订，如果我们的士兵行为不端，不会由你们的法院审判。

It's a pretty standard agreement that the Americans have in places where they're American bases that if our GIs behave badly, they won't be tried by your courts.

他们会由我们的军事法庭审判。

They'll be tried by our military courts.

霍梅尼说，这简直是奇耻大辱。

And Khomeini says, this is an absolute disgrace.

他说，沙阿把我们降到了殖民地的水平，让伊朗穆斯林民族在世人眼中显得比野蛮人还要落后。

He says, the shah has reduced us to a level of a colony and made the Muslim nation of Iran appear more backward than savages in the eyes of the world.

他说，这一切都是犹太复国主义者的阴谋。

He says this is all a Zionist plot.

林登·约翰逊总统，我引述一下，是最令人厌恶的人类成员，是个犹太复国主义代理人。

President Lyndon Johnson, and I quote, the most repulsive member of the human race is a Zionist agent.

我不怀疑霍梅尼确实相信这一点，但这里也存在一定的算计成分。

And I I don't doubt that Khomeini genuinely thought this, but there's also an element of calculation here.

他告诉他的朋友们，据引述，他说：我们必须利用这个问题作为武器，让人民意识到沙阿是美国的代理人。

He's he tells his friends, he's quoted as having told his friends, we must use this issue as a weapon so that the people will realize that the Shah is an American agent.

我认为这是他政治策略中非常关键的一部分，他将你可能视为宗教保守主义或传统主义的内容，与一种在二十世纪五十年代和六十年代亚洲各地极为流行和受欢迎的反殖民民族主义融合在一起。

I think this is a really important part of his political repertoire, that he blends what you might see as religious conservatism or traditionalism with a kind of anti colonial nationalism that is so fashionable and popular in the nineteen fifties and the nineteen sixties across Asia,

不仅仅是在伊朗。

not just in Iran.

因此，后来他之所以能在西方左翼人士中被奉为值得钦佩的人物，原因就在这里。

And so this is why in due course, he can be celebrated by people in the West on the left as as a a figure to be admired.

作为这一切中的反帝国主义英雄。

As an anti imperialist champion in all of this.

无论如何，这一切对沙阿来说太过分了。

Anyway, this was too much for the shah.

沙阿再次逮捕了他，并将他驱逐出国家。

The shah had him arrested again, and they kicked him out of the country.

他最终来到了伊拉克的另一座圣城——纳杰夫，那里安葬着什叶派宗教的英雄阿里。

And he ends up in the holy another holy city, Najaf, in Iraq, where the great hero of Shiite religion, Ali, is buried.

在那里，霍梅尼和他的妻子与所有追随者和门徒一起住在一所小房子里。

And there, Khomeini and his wife live in this little house with all their followers and their acolytes.

他成为了反抗沙阿的象征。

And he becomes this sort of symbol of resistance to the shah.

于是，他每天坐在那里，祷告、读书、授课，等等，他的支持者们将他的讲座和布道录制成磁带，并偷偷运进伊朗。

So he will sit there, you know, day after day praying and reading and teaching and whatnot, and his supporters make tape recordings of his lectures and his sermons, and they smuggle them into Iran.

也许在另一个平行宇宙中，他会一直留在纳杰夫，默默无闻地发表演讲，最终被人遗忘。

Now maybe there's an alternative universe where he would just have stayed in the Jaffa, and he'd have kind of molded away giving his speeches, and no one would have cared.

有些听众可能会说，六七十年代，伊朗靠着石油收入变得非常富裕。

And some listeners may say, well, Iran was getting very rich in the sixties and seventies with all its oil money.

它正变得更加城市化。

It's becoming more urban.

它也推行了各种不错的改革。

It's got its, you know, nice reforms.

它的识字率在不断提高。

It's becoming more literate.

谁会在乎一个胡子拉碴、住在伊拉克边境那边的家伙呢？

Who cares about what some bloke with a beard over the border in Iraq?

但事实上，伊朗所经历的所有这些变化，实际上都帮了霍梅尼的忙。

But the truth is that all of the changes that Iran is undergoing, they actually play into Khomeini's hands.

你可能会说，国王实际上对伊朗有利。

You might say, the shah's actually been good for Iran.

他花了很多钱修建新的铁路之类的东西。

He spent all this money on new railways and stuff.

医疗体系大幅扩展，教育也是如此。

Healthcare has expanded massively, education.

他投资了伊朗的工业。

He's invested in Iran's industry.

而且，如果你是女性，或者你是某个少数民族的成员——伊朗有很多少数民族，比如库尔德人。

And actually, if you're a woman, or if you're a member of an ethnic minority, Iran has a lot of minorities, Kurds.

还有宗教少数群体也是如此。

And religious minorities as well.

是的，少数群体。

Yeah, minorities.

他们在沙阿统治下比伊朗历史上任何时期都过得更好。

They are better off under the shah than they had ever been before in Iranian history.

我的意思是，单就女性而言，有伊斯兰着装规范，而沙阿对此嗤之以鼻。

I mean, just on women, there are Islamic dress codes, which the shah is contemptuous of.

是的。

Yes.

因此，如果你不是传统意义上的虔诚穆斯林女性，就可以随意穿着。

And so if you are not devoutly Muslim in the traditional sense, as a woman, you can wear what you like.

但显然，这成为世俗主义者和传统穆斯林之间核心冲突的一个非常明显的视觉象征。

But, obviously, that becomes a very obvious visual symbol of what is at stake both for secularists and for traditional Muslims.

在六七十年代，人们会说，他们从乡村来到德黑兰，看到巨大的西方广告牌，上面展示着他们认为衣着暴露的女性，还有各种广告招贴画等等。

Well, people would say in the sixties and seventies, they would they would come to Tehran from the countryside, and they would see huge Western billboards for, you know, showing what they regarded as half naked women, you know, advertising hoardings and so on.

他们对此感到震惊。

And they were shocked by it.

他们真的非常震惊。

They were they were really shocked.

但他们看到女性穿着超短裙，在酒吧里和男人一起喝酒。

But they would see women in miniskirts drinking in bars with men.

当然。

Of course.

正是如此。

Exactly.

而且他们还会看到外国女性，比如美国女性等等，因为当时有五万美国人，不过我们稍后再谈。

And they would see foreign women, by the way, you know, American women and so on, because some of them are 50,000 Americans, but we'll come to this.

六七十年代的巨大石油繁荣对伊朗来说是一把双刃剑。

The enormous oil boom of the sixties and seventies has proved a very mixed blessing for Iran.

它造成了深刻的不平等感。

It's created a deep sense of inequality.

一方面，农村农民和城市贫民与另一方面都市精英之间存在着明显的差距。

There's a conspicuous gap between rural peasants and and the urban poor on one hand, and then the the winners, the metropolitan elite on the other.

关键的是，它引发了严重的通货膨胀。

Crucially, it's triggered massive inflation.

所以七十年代的价格每年上涨约15%。

So prices in the seventies are rising about 15% a year.

这很像西班牙在征服美洲之后，大量白银涌入，最终摧毁了西班牙经济。

It's very kind of Spain after the conquest of the Americas, the influx of all the silver that basically destroyed the Spanish economy.

石油收入在很多方面，不仅带来了好处，也加剧了许多问题。

The oil money is in many ways, it makes a lot of things worse as well as better.

伊朗是一个非常年轻的国家。

So Iran is a very young country.

这一点令人惊叹。

Amazing, the fact of this.

二十世纪七十年代，伊朗有一半人口年龄在16岁以下。

Half the population of Iran in the nineteen seventies was under the age of 16.

因此，有大量充满抱负的人，如果他们的抱负得不到满足，就会迅速感到挫败。

So that's a lot of ambitious people, and if their ambitions aren't met, they will be very quickly frustrated.

我们已经提到过德黑兰的人口激增。

And we already mentioned the population explosion in Tehran.

因此，有数万乃至数十万人从乡村迁移到德黑兰寻找工作，他们挤在城市边缘那些阴暗的混凝土高层公寓里。

So you have tens of thousands of people, hundreds of thousands, who have moved to Tehran from the countryside in search of work, and they are packed into these pretty grim concrete tower blocks on the edge of the city.

你提到了交通问题。

You mentioned the traffic.

德黑兰的交通状况在全世界都臭名昭著。

The traffic is notorious across the world.

你知道，你哪儿都去不了。

You know, you can't get anywhere.

电力系统无法应对如此多的新移民，因此停电频频发生。

The electricity grid cannot cope with all the newcomers, so there are constant blackouts.

而成本因持续通胀而不断上涨。

And the costs are because the inflation are going up all the time.

因此，在德黑兰的一些地区，租金在五年内上涨了300%。

So in some parts of Tehran, rent went up 300% in five years.

还有许多从乡村迁来的贫穷、无技能的年轻男性，他们觉得这一切令人完全不知所措且无比沮丧。

And there are a lot of poor, unskilled young men who have moved from the countryside who find all this utterly overwhelming and frustrating.

他们在经济上挣扎。

They're struggling economically.

他们对您所描述的情况感到震惊。

They are shocked by what you were describing.

你知道，那些富裕人群的社会生活多么热闹。

You know, the the social whirl of the people who are well off.

你知道，那些穿着暴露的女性喝着酒精饮料之类的。

You know, the women in revealing dresses drinking alcohol and whatnot.

他们感到自己与国王及其宫廷完全疏离，同时也与如今生活在德黑兰的数以万计的西方人疏离，因为这些西方人正参与着这场繁荣，就像如今生活在中东、迪拜或其他地方的西方人一样。

And they feel totally alienated from the shah and his court, and they also feel alienated from the tens of thousands of westerners who now live in Tehran, because they are participating in the boom, rather like Westerners who now live in the Middle East, Dubai or somewhere.

所以，引用一位在革命初期和人质危机中声名鹊起的年轻女性马苏梅·埃布特卡尔的话说。

So to quote a young woman, Massoumee Ebtekar, who became very prominent in the early days of the revolution and in the hostage crisis.

她后来写道，大多数生活在伊朗的美国人行为方式暴露了他们的自我重要感和优越感。

She wrote later, most of the Americans who lived in Iran behaved in a way that revealed their sense of self importance and superiority.

他们期望从所有伊朗人那里获得额外的尊重，甚至敬畏，从擦鞋童到国王皆是如此。

They had come to expect extra respect, even deference, from all Iranians, from shoeshine boy to shah.

美国的生活方式已被视为理想，成为终极目标。

American lifestyles had come to be imposed as an ideal, the ultimate goal.

美国的书籍、杂志和电影如洪水般席卷我们的国家，我们不禁开始怀疑：我们的文化还有容身之地吗？

American books, magazines, films had swept over our country like a flood, and we found ourselves wondering, is there any room for our own culture?

我认为，大卫，这在六七十年代的整个发展中国家都很普遍，但在伊朗尤其突出，因为伊朗正被这一切彻底改变

And I think, David, this is very common in the sixties and seventies across the developing world, but it's especially pronounced in Iran, which is being transformed so much by all of

这笔钱。

this money.

而且伊朗拥有如此悠久而独特的文化。

And which has such an ancient culture and such a distinctive culture.

当然。

Of course.

如今，写下这些话的马苏梅·埃布特卡尔是一名学生，这绝非偶然。

Now it's no accident, Massimo Ebtekar, the woman who wrote those words, was a student.

多亏了沙阿的现代化计划，如今德黑兰和其他大城市已有二十万名学生。

And thanks to the Shah's modernization project, there are now 200,000 students in Tehran and the other big cities.

我的意思是，这

I mean, that's

对一个独裁者来说，这可是新手时期，不是吗？

a rookie's era for a dictator, isn't it?

是的。

Yeah.

创造出这样一群受过教育的人，他们的抱负却得不到满足。

Create this class of people, educated people, whose ambitions are not being met.

现在，其中一些人转向社会主义或共产主义，但大多数人没有，因为如果你感到疏离和沮丧，考虑到神职人员历来的重要性，以及伊斯兰教在伊朗历史中的地位，当你在寻找意义、秩序、慰藉以及诸如此类的东西时，伊斯兰教能为你提供比社会主义和共产主义更地道的伊朗式答案。

Now, some of them turn to socialism or communism, but most don't, because if you are feeling alienated and frustrated, given the importance the clerics have always had, and the place of Islam in Iran's history, if you are looking for meaning and order and solace and all of those kinds of things, Islam offers you more authentically Iranian answers than socialism and communism do.

所以，某种变化正在酝酿。

So something is brewing.

你知道，随着七十年代的持续，这种变化正在公寓楼和大学校园里悄然发生。

You know, things are brewing in the kind of tower blocks and in the university campuses and things as the seventies continue.

但在华盛顿，人们根本没注意到这些。

But in Washington, people just don't notice this.