638. 伊朗革命：人质危机（第三部分）

因为实际上，我们知道美国外交官将会被扣为人质。

Because, actually, I mean, we know that American diplomats are going to be taken hostage.

但英国外交官不会。

British diplomats are not.

从某种意义上说，考虑到英国在伊朗的负面形象，这不就像一只夜里不叫的狗吗？

And in a sense, bearing in mind the notoriety of Britain and the Iranian demonology, I mean, is a dog that doesn't bark in the night, isn't it?

是的。

It is.

尽管英国大使馆外有大规模的抗议活动，但并没有被入侵。

Although there are massive protests outside the British Embassy, but it's not invaded.

他们把街道名称改了，对吧？从温斯顿·丘吉尔大道改成了鲍比·桑兹大道。

And they changed the street name, don't they, from Winston Churchill Avenue to Bobby Sands Avenue.

而鲍比·桑兹是爱尔兰共和军的绝食抗议者。

And Bobby Sands is an IRA hunger striker.

没错。

Exactly.

是的。

They do.

所以鲨鱼不能去英国。

So the shark can't go to Britain.

他最终去了巴哈马，在海滩上买了一栋房子，整天祈祷、看报纸，还打电话给外国外交官，怀念过去的好时光，比如巴黎马克西姆餐厅的食物和多米尼克香槟之类的。

He goes off to The Bahamas in the end, and he gets a house on the beach, and he spends his time praying and reading the newspapers, and he rings up foreign diplomats to reminisce about the good old days, about, you know, food from Maxims of Paris and Dom Perignon champagne and stuff.

美好的年代。

Great days.

之后，他又去了墨西哥的奎尔纳瓦卡，这两个藏身之处都是他的两位美国朋友安排的。

And then after that, he goes to Queernavaca in Mexico, And both of these bolt holes have been arranged by two American pals of his.

具体来说，他的挚友基辛格，以及基辛格的朋友、石油世家出身的戴维·洛克菲勒——他是花旗银行的董事长。

So specifically, his great chum, Henry Kissinger, and Kissinger's mate, David Rockefeller of oil family fame, who is the president of the Chase Manhattan Bank.

真是得力的朋友。

So useful friends.

对。

Yeah.

人脉真不错。

Good contacts.

基辛格和洛克菲勒主动担当起为伊朗沙阿大力辩护的角色。

And Kissinger and Rockefeller take it upon themselves to be the Shah's great champions.

他们认为美国抛弃沙阿是极其糟糕的事。

And they think it's terrible that The United States has abandoned him.

整个1979年，基辛格和洛克菲勒不断骚扰卡特政府。

And all through 1979, Kissinger and Rockefeller are pestering the Carter administration.

让沙阿进来吧。

Allow in the Shah.

你们让美国丢脸了。

You're letting America down.

这实在太差劲了。

This is really poor.

拜托了。

Come on.

卡特是以基督教义务的口吻回应这一点的吗？

And does Carter respond to this in a tone of Christian obligation?

卡特，塔比，把你们该死的设备准备好。

Carter, Tabby, get your bleeping machine ready.

卡特说，引述原话，这位国王。

Carter says, and I quote, the shah.

他还有其他安全的地方可去，我不会欢迎他。

I'm not gonna welcome him when he has other places where he'll be safe.

这可不是吉米·卡特在佐治亚州普莱恩斯教主日学时说的话。

This is not what Jimmy Carter says when he's teaching a Sunday school in Plains, Georgia.

当然。

Surely.

无论如何，决定性因素是国王的健康状况。

Anyway, the decisive factor is the shah's health.

基本上，他的医生们——他的法国医生——已经多次探望他，发现他的癌症正在扩散。

So basically, his doctors have been visiting him, his French doctors, and they can see that his cancer is spreading.

他在减肥。

He's losing weight.

他看起来糟透了。

He looks terrible.

他因为黄疸变得全身发黄，所有这些情况都有。

He's turned yellow with jaundice, all of this.

最终，大卫·洛克菲勒派了自己的医疗团队前往墨西哥检查沙阿，他们回到华盛顿后向政府汇报了情况。

And eventually, David Rockefeller sends his own medical team to Mexico to inspect the shah, and they go back to Washington, and they report to the administration.

1979年10月，也就是10月19日，白宫召开了一次会议来讨论此事。

And in October 1979, so the October 19, there's a meeting at the White House to discuss this.

卡特的助手们对他说，我认为你应该让他进来。

And Carter's aides say to him, I think you should let him in.

你知道，他快不行了。

He's, you know, he's dying.

你绝对应该让他进来。

You should definitely let him in.

国务卿赛勒斯·万斯表示，基本的道义和人道主义要求我们允许沙阿在纽约接受治疗。

Cyrus Vance, the secretary of state, says common decency and humanity demand that we allow the Shah to have treatment in New York.

K。

K.

他曾是我们盟友。

He was our ally.

他是我们的人。

He was our man.

我们现在不能抛弃他。

We can't abandon him now.

卡特的幕僚长、同为佐治亚州人的汉密尔顿·乔丹向卡特指出。

Carter's chief of staff, Hamilton Jordan, a Georgian like Carter, he points out to the to Carter.

他说，如果沙阿死在墨西哥，亨利·基辛格就会走遍世界说：首先是你导致了他的垮台，现在又是你害死了他。

He says, if the Shah dies in Mexico, Henry Kissinger will go around the world saying, first you caused his downfall, and now you've killed him.

这有点过分了。

That's a bit harsh.

杀死他的肯定是癌症。

It's the cancer that kills him, surely.

是的。

Yeah.

但那正是亨利·基辛格会说的话。

But it that is what Henry Kissinger would have said.

对。

Yeah.

好吧。

Okay.

所以，你知道，汉密尔顿·乔丹说得对。

So, you know, Hamilton Jordan is right.

卡特最终让步了，但在会议结束时，我们把卡特描绘成某种程度上对吉米·卡特有些不公平。

And Carter eventually gives in, but at the end of the meeting, Carter and we've painted Carter as in some ways, you know, perhaps being a bit unfair to Jimmy Carter in some ways.

在这里，吉米·卡特展现了他精明的一面，因为他在会议结束时说：‘有没有人知道，如果我们驻使馆的外交人员被劫持了，我们该怎么办？’

Here, Jimmy Carter shows his shrewdness because Jimmy Carter says at the end of the meeting, does somebody have an answer as to what we would do if the diplomats in our embassy are taken hostage?

然后是一阵漫长的沉默，没有人说话。

And there's a long silence, and nobody says anything.

卡特说：我猜是没有。

And Carter says, I gather not.

在那一天，我们都会坐在这里，脸色苍白，意识到我们被耍了。

On that day, we will all sit here with long drawn white faces, and we will realize that we have been had.

既然他意识到了这一点，为什么不在允许沙阿入境前撤走外交人员呢？

So if he's alert to that, why doesn't he withdraw the diplomats before allowing the Shah in?

这是个好问题。

That's a good question.

他们不想撤走外交人员，因为他们认为保持外交代表、继续与那些所谓的温和派接触至关重要，我认为。

Where they don't want to withdraw their diplomats, they think it's so important to have diplomatic representation and keep talking to these fabled moderate elements, I think.

如果卡特从伊朗撤退，他会被人指责彻底失去了伊朗，我认为。

If Carter ran away from Iran, he would be accused of completely losing Iran, I think.

所以他不想这么做。

So he doesn't want to do that.

是的。

Yeah.

复杂的局面。

Ambitious situation.

无论如何，他并没有处理好这件事，这一点我们稍后就会看到。

Anyway, he hasn't he doesn't handle it well, as we will see.

三天后，也就是10月22日，沙阿和法拉赫皇后抵达纽约，被直接送往康奈尔医学中心接受紧急手术。

So three days later, the October 22, the Shah and Empress Farah arrive in New York, and they are rushed straight to the Cornell Medical Center so that he can have emergency surgery.

实际上并没有任何掩饰的尝试。

There's no attempt really.

所有人都知道这事瞒不住，因此当医生们正在为沙阿动手术时，大楼外已经聚集了人群，高喊着反对他的口号。

Everyone knows they can't keep this a secret, so even as the doctors are operating on the shah, there are crowds outside the building chanting against him.

而且是

And are

这些是伊朗人吗？

these Iranian?

伊朗学生。

Iranian students.

伊朗学生。

Iranian students.

当时有数以万计的伊朗学生在美国的大学里学习。

So there were tens of thousands of Iranian students at American universities.

你知道，他们通常反对其国王，到这个时候，当他们示威反对国王或其他行为时，常常会遭到美国人袭击，或在校园里发生冲突，而这些情况当然会在人质危机爆发后进一步恶化。

You know, they tend to be anti Shar, and by this point, when they demonstrate against the Shar or whatever, they often, you know, get attacked by Americans or those there's scuffles on campuses and things like this, and which will worsen, of course, once the hostage crisis begins.

但在美国也有许多支持巴列维的伊朗人。

But there are also lots of pro Shah Iranians in America.

他们是流亡者。

There are the exiles.

自1978年以来，越来越多的流亡团体抵达美国，定居在佛罗里达和加利福尼亚等地，至今美国仍存在伊朗流亡社群。

So increasing the exile groups who've arrived in the court since 1978, settled in places like Florida and California, still exile communities of Iranians in America today.

所以在德黑兰，当美国大使馆工作人员听说国王抵达纽约时

So in Tehran, when the US embassy staff hear the Shahs arrived in New York

天啊。

Oh god.

他们不高兴。

They're not happy.

因此，代理大使布鲁斯·莱根已经向华盛顿表示，请不要这样做。

So Bruce Lengan, who is the acting ambassador, had already said to Washington, please do not do this.

请不要这样做。

Do not do this.

如果你们非要这么做，请事先与伊朗临时政府沟通清楚。

And if you are gonna do it, clear it with the Iranian provisional government beforehand.

比如，向他们解释你们的意图。

Like, explain to them what you're doing.

你知道的，尽量缓和局势。

You know, try to smooth the ground.

请派一位新大使，表明你们接受新政权，并请采取措施为德黑兰的美国人提供适当的安全保障。

Please send a new ambassador to show that you accept the new regime, and please do something to arrange proper security for Americans in Tehran.

而在这整个故事中，华盛顿太多人就是听不进使馆传来的信号。

And as throughout this story, too many people in Washington just don't listen to the signals they're getting from their embassy.

但在头几天，列宁认为，

But in the first few days, Lenin thinks,

你知道吗？

do you know what?

我们也许能蒙混过关。

We might just get away with this.

使馆没有遭到袭击。

There is no attack on the embassy.

只有游行。

There are marches.

但以伊朗的标准来看，街头还算平静，也许事情会好起来。

But by Iranian standards, the streets feel reasonably calm, so maybe things are gonna be alright.

他不知道的是，在德黑兰理工大学，有一些学生已经策划了几周，准备袭击使馆。

What he doesn't know is that at Tehran's University of Technology, there are students who have been plotting for weeks to attack the embassy.

现在有好几个学生团体声称对这件事负责。

Now there are different groups of students who claim credit for this.

最常被提到的名字是一个叫易卜拉欣·阿什加扎德的人，他后来成为了一名伊朗改革派政治家，实际上在二月被捕了。

The name that comes up most often is a guy called Ebrahim Ashgazadeh, who later on actually ended up being a reformist Iranian politician, who was actually arrested in the February.

哦，所以是个温和派。

Oh, so a moderate element.

温和派，但不是1979年那种意义上的温和派。

Moderate element, but not not in 1979.

他当时是一名工程系学生。

He was an engineering student.

他完全代表了那些对霍梅尼归来感到无比激动的学生。

He was absolutely typical of the students who were very excited about Khomeini's return.

把这看作是一个全新的开始，彻底清除七十年代的腐败与挫败感。

See it as a chance for a new start, banishing the corruption and the frustrations of the seventies.

有一天秋天，他和一些朋友在德黑兰的一家咖啡馆碰面，他们说：我们真想表达一下我们的态度，这完全是典型的学生做派。

And he meets up with some friends of his at a cafe in Tehran one day in the autumn, and they say, we would love to kinda demonstrate our you know, it's classic student stuff.

我们该站出来，让我们的声音被听见，诸如此类的事情。

Let's make a stand, you know, let our voices be heard, all of this kind of thing.

打击帝国主义。

Strike at the imperialists.

打击

Strike at

帝国主义。

the imperialists.

我们为什么不闯入美国大使馆，从那里向全世界宣告我们的主张？

Why don't we break into the US embassy, and from there, proclaim our message to the world?

绝妙的主意。

Brilliant idea.

他们与来自德黑兰其他大学的学生会合，组成了一个名为‘伊玛目路线穆斯林学生追随者’的团体。

They meet up with students from other Tehran colleges, and they form this group with the catchy name, Muslim student followers of the Imam's line.

太棒了。

Love it.

他们的计划是占领大使馆几个小时，也许几天，然后广播你刚才念出的那番话。

And their plan is they will occupy the embassy for a few hours, maybe a few days, and they will broadcast the message that you read out.

我们不喜欢沙阿。

We don't like the shah.

我们不喜欢美国。

We don't like America.

我们不喜欢帝国主义。

We don't like imperialism.

你知道的吧？

You know?

万岁，万岁。

Huzzah, huzzah.

故事到此结束。

End of story.

所以这正是自1968年以来西方国家静坐抗议的典型方式， presumably 是受到它们的启发。

So it's a sit in in exactly the way that sit ins from 1968 onwards have operated in the West and presumably inspired by them.

是的。

Yes.

那就是

That's the

关于伊朗革命，有趣的一点是，对吧？

funny thing, isn't it, about the Iranian Revolution?

在某些方面，你知道，西方经常把它描述为倒退的、中世纪的，诸如此类。

That in some ways, you know, it was often described in the West as backward looking, as medieval, all this kind of thing.

然而它非常现代，既受到什叶派传统的启发，也受到霍梅尼的激进愿景的影响，但同时也隐约带有20世纪60年代和1968年的痕迹。

And yet it's very modern, and it's informed both by, you know, Shia tradition and also by the Ayatollah's radical vision, But also, there's hints of the nineteen sixties and 1968 in there too.

对。

Yeah.

这正是西方左派最初对伊朗革命持热情态度时所捕捉到的。

And that's what people on the left in the West who are enthusiastic initially for the Iranian Revolution are picking up on.

这就是他们喜欢的地方。

That's what they liked.

没错。

Exactly.

现在我们来到关键的一天：1979年11月4日，星期日。

So now we come to the fateful day, Sunday, 11/04/1979.

距离美国大选正好还有一年。

It is exactly one year to go until the US presidential election.

我的意思是，这简直编都编不出来。

I mean, you could not make this up.

也就是说，再过365天，吉米·卡特就要面对美国选民了。

So three hundred and sixty five days time, Jimmy Carter will face the American voters.

黎明时分，三百名学生聚集在大使馆附近，其中至少有一位女学生穿着黑色查多尔。

At about dawn, 300 students gathered near the embassy, and at least one of the female students, they're wearing these black Chaddors.

是的。

Yeah.

查多尔是黑色长袍，她们把断线钳藏在查多尔下面。

Chaddors, black robes, and they have bolt cutters hidden under their chaddors.

他们带了足够三天食用的食物。

And they're brought enough enough food for three days.

这正是他们认为占领行动最长可能持续的时间。

That's as long as they think the occupation will plausibly last at the outside.

他们穿过街道，朝大使馆走去。

They go through the streets towards the embassy.

记住，德黑兰总是有街头抗议活动，所以人们对此并不在意。

Remember that Tehran, there are always street protests and stuff, so people don't think anything of it.

而在大使馆内部，没人真正知道发生了什么。

And inside the embassy, nobody really has any idea what's happening.

美国作家马克·鲍登写了一本关于这次围困和人质经历的精彩著作，书名叫《阿亚图拉的客人》，我强烈推荐给各位听众。

There's a brilliant book on this by an American writer called Mark Bowden called Guests of the Ayatollah, all about the siege and the hostage experience, which I heartily recommend to the listeners.

他在书中提到的一位人物是新闻专员巴里·罗森，他是一位狂热的伊朗爱好者。

And one of the people he talks about in this book is the press attache, who was Barry Rosen, who was a big sort of Iranophile.

他曾作为和平队志愿者在伊朗服务过。

He'd been a Peace Corps volunteer in Iran.

他会说波斯语，所有这些。

He spoke Farsi, all of this.

他在自己的办公室里。

He's in his office.

现在是早上9点。

It's 09:00.

他正在打一份报告，突然听到窗外传来喊叫声。

He's typing a report, and he hears shouting at the window.

他和秘书一起走到窗边。

He goes to the window with his secretary.

外面是一大群人，满腮胡须的男子高喊着‘打倒吉米·卡特’、‘打倒美国’，穿着查多尔的妇女挥舞拳头，高呼‘万岁，阿亚图拉’，诸如此类。

There's this huge crowd, sort of men men with a lot of stubble shouting death to Jimmy Carter, death to America, women in their chadors, fists pumping, hurrah for the Ayatollah, all this kind of thing.

这些都是家常便饭。

Standard stuff.

他看了一会儿，随后惊恐地发现，他们开始爬墙了

And he watches it for a little while, and then to his horror, he sees they're starting to climb

大门。

the gates.

如果你是七十年代的美国外交官，看到人们翻越美国大使馆的围墙，这肯定不是一个好兆头。

And I guess if you're an American diplomat in the seventies, seeing people climb over the walls of American Embassies is not a good sign.

你说得对。

You're absolutely right.

距离西贡陷落才仅仅四年。

It is only four years since the fall of Saigon.

你知道，南越覆灭的伤痕远未愈合。

You know, that's the scar of South Vietnam's fall has not healed by any means.

当时美国大使馆的那些场景，一定还深深印在人们的记忆里。

And those scenes at the US embassy must be, I mean, they are very fresh in people's minds.

而且当时没有直升机可用。

And there are no helicopters on hand.

还没有直升机到来。

There are no helicopters come well As yet.

罗森又回去了。

Rosen goes back in.

他说，把门锁上。

He says, bar the door.

你知道，我得处理掉所有敏感文件。

You know, I need to get rid of any sensitive papers.

但事实上，还没等他动手，一群人就已经强行闯入了他的办公室。

But actually, before he can do that, men are already forcing their way into his office.

他用波斯语对他们大喊，滚出去之类的。

And he shouts at them in Farsi, get out or whatever.

但越来越多的人涌了进来。

But more and more of them are coming in.

其中一人对他说：立即离开，否则你会受伤。

And one of them says to him, leave immediately or you will be hurt.

我们已经掌控局面了。

We are in control.

罗森发现他们都很年轻。

And Rosen can see they're very young.

他们非常混乱。

They're very disorganized.

他们当然很害怕，也很愤怒。

They are frightened, of course, and they're angry.

他们的状态糟透了。

They're in a terrible state.

他想，好吧，我就顺从吧，你知道的，因为这事很快就会结束。

And he thinks, well, I'll just give in, you know, because this will be over soon.

我知道这类事情是怎么运作的。

I know how these things work.

我暂时只能先这样安排了。

I'm just gonna have to set this up for the time being.

他被这些人带了出去，此时已经有数百人涌进庭院，正在建筑物之间穿梭。

And he's led outside by these blokes, and there are already hundreds of people pouring into the compound, and they're moving around the buildings.

他们正在翻遍所有橱柜，把文件都翻出来，诸如此类的事情。

They're going through all the cupboards, they're pulling out documents, all of this kind of thing.

在大使馆大楼里，学生们要求工作人员打开保险箱。

In the Chancery Building, students demand that the staff open the safes.

工作人员没有密码。

The staff don't have the combination.

一些学生开始殴打他们，然后把工作人员拖到外面。

Some of the students start hitting them, and then they drag the staff outside.

他们把他们绑起来。

They bind them.

他们蒙上他们的眼睛，这种事在compound的每栋楼里都在发生。

They blindfold them, and this happens in every building in the compound.

这是一个非常混乱而戏剧性的场景，但所有事情都发生得很快。

It's a very confused and dramatic scene, but it all happens pretty quickly.

一个显而易见的问题是，为什么美国人不反抗。

An obvious question is why the Americans don't fight back.

为什么没有开枪？

Why is there no shooting?

有几个解释。

And there are a couple of explanations.

一个是并非所有学生都是暴力的。

One is that not all the students are violent.

所以他们中的一些人举着用英语写的标语，上面写着‘别害怕’。

So some of them carry signs in English that say, don't be afraid.

我们只是想静坐抗议。

We just want to sit in.

对。

Right.

这就像伯克利的情况。

So this is like Berkeley.

这就像加利福尼亚的学生静坐抗议。

This is like a student sit in in California.

对。

Right.

没错。

Exactly.

或者伦敦政治经济学院，或者六七十年代常见的静坐抗议。

Or the London School of Economics or the sit ins that have been so familiar in the sixties and seventies.

其次，一个显而易见的点是，海军陆战队人数上处于绝对劣势。

Secondly, an obvious point, the marines are massively outnumbered.

我想营地里只有十几名海军陆战队员。

I think there are about just over a dozen marines in the compound.

有三百名学生。

There are 300 students.

你知道，你不可能把他们都射杀。

You know, you're not gonna shoot them all.

所以他们束手无策。

So they're overwhelmed.

但关键的是，所有人都认为这场危机将在几小时内结束，因为此前曾发生过对使馆的袭击。

But, crucially, everybody thinks this will be over within hours because there have been attacks on the embassy before.

你知道，这很可怕，也很创伤，但不会永远持续下去。

You know, it's scary and it's, you know, traumatic, but it's not gonna last forever.

所以到了午餐时间，一切就结束了。

So by lunchtime, it's all over.

现在，使馆内挤满了数百名伊朗人，约有60名美国人被俘。

The compound is now full of hundreds of Iranians, and about 60 Americans have been taken prisoner.

他们中的大多数都被蒙上了眼睛或绑住了。

Most of them have been blindfolded or bound.

有些人情况真的很糟，你知道，他们被打过了。

Some of them are really in a you know, they've been hit.

他们身上有淤青。

They're bruised.

他们遍体鳞伤。

They're battered.

有些人害怕他们会遭到枪杀。

Some of them are terrified they're gonna be shot.

有些人对朋友说，别担心。

Some of them are saying to their friends, don't worry.

没事的。

It's fine.

我们明天可能就会坐飞机回家了。

We'll probably be on a plane going home tomorrow.

事情就是这样发展的。

This is how these things work.

首席外交官布鲁斯·莱根和他的两名高级官员不在现场。

The chief diplomat, Bruce Lengan, and two of his senior officials are not there.

他们去伊朗外交部开会了。

They had a meeting at the Iranian foreign ministry.

他们去了外交部。

They went to the foreign ministry.

莱根得知了情况，他说，我想见外交部长。

Lengan found out what was going on, and he said, I wanna see the foreign minister.

他们基本上带他进了餐厅，他在那里待了几个小时。

And they basically showed him into a dining room, and he was there for hours.

然后他在那里过夜了。

And then he was there overnight.

接着他又在那里待了一天。

And then he was there for another day.

然后他几乎意识到，我永远别想离开这个房间了。

And then he basically realized, I'm never getting out of this room.

那之后他被带到大使馆后方了吗？

And then does he get taken to the back to the embassy?

没有。

No.

他们被永远关在了外交部。

They get shut up in the foreign ministry Forever.

永远。

Forever.

那他们后来怎么样了？

Well, what happens to them?

他们最后也能出来吗？

Do they get out as well in the end?

他们是人质。

Well, they're hostages.

他们是人质，但被困在外交部里。

They're hostages, but stuck in the foreign ministry.

甚至连大使馆里的同伴都见不到。

Not even with their mates back in the embassy.

正如我们将会看到的，许多被扣押的人质最终被分开了。

Well, as we will see, the hostages end up lots of them end up getting split up.

他们被单独监禁，等等等等。

They get in solitary confinement and so on and so forth.

所以他们都是囚犯。

So they're all prisoners.

他们最终成了伊朗革命的俘虏。

They've ended up as prisoners of the Iranian Revolution.

在72名使馆工作人员中，只有六人逃脱了抓捕，这是一个非凡的故事。

Of the 72 embassy staff, only six of them avoided capture, and this is an extraordinary story.

是的。

Yeah.

因为这正是那部电影，对吧？

Because this is the the film, isn't it?

这就是《逃离德黑兰》。

This is Argo.

其中有五人，分别是马克和科拉莉亚·阿库德、约瑟夫和凯瑟琳·斯塔福德，以及在领事馆工作的罗伯特·安德斯。

There were five of them, Mark and Coraliyah Akude, Joseph and Kathleen Stafford, and Robert Anders, who were working in the consulate.

领事馆大楼有一个通向街道的独立出口，因此他们得以悄悄逃出。

The consulate building had a separate exit onto the street, so they were able to sneak out.

他们原本计划去英国大使馆，但英国大使馆外聚集了大量人群。

Their original plan was to go to the British Embassy, but there was a massive crowd outside the British Embassy.

他们不得不放弃这个计划。

They had to abandon that.

经过一番波折后，他们最终得到了加拿大人的收留，还有第六个人叫亨利·李·沙茨。

And after various goings on, they end up being taken in by the Canadians, as well as the sixth guy called Henry Lee Schatz.

他们如何被加拿大人收留，以及如何逃离伊朗的故事，就是本·阿弗莱克执导的电影《逃离德黑兰》。

And the story of how they're taken in by the Canadians, and then they get out of Iran is the Ben Affleck film Argo.

这个非凡的故事，简而言之，作为本故事伟大英雄的加拿大人与一名名叫托尼·门德斯的中情局特工合作。

This extraordinary story, just to cut it a very long story short, the Canadians who are the great heroes of this story teamed up with a CIA agent called Tony Mendez.

当然，他叫托尼·门德斯。

Of course, he was called Tony Mendez.

他为他们伪造了完整的身份。

And he created full sight entities for them.

他们假装自己是好莱坞的电影外景摄影师，正在为一部名为《逃离德黑兰》的科幻电影选址。

They pretended they'd been working as Hollywood film scouts, checking out locations for a science fiction film called Argo.

中央情报局甚至开设了一家好莱坞制片公司来拍摄这部电影。

And the CIA went to the lengths of opening a Hollywood studio to make this film.

他们制作了海报。

They made posters.

他们在《综艺》和《好莱坞报道》上刊登广告，为他们编造了一个掩护故事。

They ran ads in Variety in the Hollywood Reporter to create a cover story for them.

1980年1月，门德斯带着他的伪造工具飞入伊朗，目的是把这些人救出来。

And Mendez, in January 1980, flies into Iran with his forgery kit to basically get these guys out.

这真是一部精彩的电影。

It's such a good film.

是的。

Yeah.

当时这被称为‘加拿大行动’。

Canadian Caper, it was called at the time.

这是一个了不起的故事。

An amazing story.

我的意思是，既然我在讲这个故事，如果你还没看过这部电影，大概也能猜到他们是否成功脱险了，但这部电影依然值得一看。

I mean, the fact that I'm telling the story, if you haven't seen the film, you can probably guess whether they get out or not, but it is still worth watching the film.

我的意思是，得说德黑兰真是拍惊悚片的绝佳背景。

I mean, I've gotta say Tehran is an excellent place for thrillers.

还有一部非常出色的以色列间谍剧叫《德黑兰》。

There's also a a tremendous Israeli spy series called Tehran.

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

我记得你之前跟我们提过这部剧。

I remember you telling us about that.

对。

Yeah.

一名摩萨德特工潜入德黑兰执行卧底任务。

Mossad agent who goes undercover in Tehran.

它其实非常像勒卡雷的作品。

It's actually very kind of le Carre.

双方都具有道德上的模糊性。

Both sides are morally ambivalent.

我非常推崇这部剧。

I really commend it.

而且气氛紧张。

And it's tense.

尤其是前两集，紧张感极强，和《逃离德黑兰》的紧张感如出一辙。

Particularly, the first two episodes is incredibly tense and exactly the way that Argo is tense.

而且紧张，多姆，我也希望相信这一集的紧张感是同样的方式。

And tense, Dom, I would like to believe in the same way that this episode is is tense.

不是吗？

No?

是的。

Yeah.

绝对如此。

Absolutely.

因为现在有66名人质仍被扣押，吉米·卡特现在头疼不已。

Because 66 hostages have now been left in captivity, and Jimmy Carter now has a massive headache.

所以他去了戴维营，他的度假地。

So he's at Camp David, his sort of retreat.

凌晨四点，他接到国务院的电话，得知使馆已被占领，人员被劫为人质。

It's 04:00 in the morning, and he gets the call from the State Department that the embassy has been taken and people have been taken hostage.

他放下电话，试图重新入睡，但显然无法入眠。

And he puts the phone down, and he tries to get back to sleep, but he can't sleep for obvious reasons.

他曾经专门询问过顾问们，如果发生这种情况他们会怎么做，但他们没有给他明确的答案。

He had specifically asked his advisers what they would do if this happened, and they had not given him a clear answer.

他一定也明白，即使在这个阶段，如果他找不到解决方案，他和他的总统任期将被历史抛弃。

And he must know even at this stage that if he can't find an answer, then he and his presidency are heading for the dustbin of history.

不是被历史抛弃。

Not the dustbin of history.

你知道什么？

Do know what?

那是罗纳德·里根的形象。

That's a it's a Ronald Reagan image.

这就是为什么。

That's why

我选的。

I chose it.

多米尼克，你刚才提到紧张局势。

Dominic, well, you said tension.

是的。

Yeah.

紧张局势，我们确实有。

Tension, we've got it.

广告后回来，看看吉米·卡特能否摆脱困境。

Come back, after the break to find out if Jimmy Carter can get out of the bin.

你好，欢迎回到《历史其余部分》。

Hello, and welcome back to The Rest is History.

我们离开时，美国驻伊朗大使馆已落入学生激进分子手中，约66名来自该使馆的美国外交人员被扣为人质。

We left you with the United States Embassy in the hands of student militants and some 66 American hostages from that embassy being held hostage.

那么，多米尼克，这些人质后来怎么样了？

So, Dominic, what happens to these hostages?

起初，要记住，人质们并不认为自己会成为长期人质。

So at first, remember the hostages don't think they're going to end up as long term hostages.

他们以为几小时内就能获释，最多一两天，最坏的情况也不过两三天。

They think they will be out within hours, maybe a day, worst case, two or three days.

最初，他们被关押在大使馆院内，这一关就是好几周、好几个月，直到伊朗人担心美国人可能会试图营救他们，才把他们转移到监狱。

At first, they're held in the embassy compound, and they were held there for a very long time, for weeks and months, until the Iranians became worried that the Americans might try to rescue them, and they moved them to prisons.

他们把人质分散开来，转移到德黑兰各地的监狱。

They split them up and moved them to prisons around Tehran.

我提到了马克·鲍登的著作《阿亚图拉的客人》。

I mentioned Mark Bowden's book, Guests of the Ayatollah.

这是伊朗人使用的一个说法。

This was an expression used by the Iranians.

他们说这些人是我们政权的客人，但并没有被当作客人对待。

They said these people are the guests of our regime, but they weren't treated like guests.

他们被蒙上了眼睛。

They were blindfolded.

他们经常被审讯。

They were regularly interrogated.

他们受到欺凌。

They were bullied.

他们遭到殴打。

They were beaten.

有人把枪抵在他们的头上。

People would put guns to their heads.

他们假装和他们玩俄罗斯轮盘赌。

They would pretend to play Russian roulette with them.

他们威胁要开枪打死他们，除非他们承认自己是间谍并交出秘密。

They would threaten to shoot them unless they admitted that they were spies and handed over secrets.

我真的很惊讶他们会用‘客人’这个词，因为 hospitality 在伊斯兰文化中是非常重要的。

I'm surprised they would use the word guests, actually, because hospitality is such a big deal in Islam.

这简直是个笑话，不是吗？

It's a joke, isn't it?

在这一危机中，伊朗人的态度中带着某种嘲讽的意味。

There's something mocking about the attitude of the Iranians during this crisis.

但待客之道是如此重要。

But the rules of hospitality are so important.

这么说吧，这根本不是伊朗待客之道的好广告。

Well, I mean, this is not a great advert for Iranian hospitality.

尤其是因为这些劫持人质的人 themselves，当然，他们都还很年轻。

Not least because the hostage takers themselves, of course, they're they're young.

他们才二十出头。

They're in their early twenties.

他们自己也害怕、过度兴奋、混乱无序、脾气暴躁。

They themselves are frightened, overexcited, disorganized, bad tempered.

他们花了很多时间对彼此和人质大喊大叫。

They spend a lot of time screaming at each other and at the hostages.

一些人质，包括女性和非裔美国人，在几周后、十一月前就被释放了。

Some of the hostages, the women and African Americans, were released before the November after a few weeks.

显然，因为劫持者想表达一个政治立场。

Obviously, because the captors wanted to make a political point.

这体现了伊朗革命中1968年式的那一面。

This is the sort of 1968 side of the Iranian Revolution.

嗯哼。

Mhmm.

于是剩下52人仍被扣押。

So that left 52 of them still in captivity.

他们的经历相当悲惨。

And their story is a pretty grim one.

我的意思是，很多人真的经历了极其糟糕的遭遇。

I mean, lot of them had a really, really terrible time.

他们经常被殴打。

They were regularly beaten.

他们经常被绑住好几天。

They were regularly bound for days.

他们被带到喧闹的人群前。

They were brought out before jeering crowds.

他们被分开关进单独监禁室等等。

They were split up and put into solitary confinement and so on.

他们总是戴着眼罩，对吧？

And they're always wearing blindfolds, aren't they?

所以所有的照片，我的意思是，都惨不忍睹。

So all the photographs, they're always I mean, just awful.

当他们被转移到监狱时，处境非常非常艰难。

And when they were moved to prisons, they had a really, really tough time.

监狱看守——他们不是学生——殴打他们，折磨他们，诸如此类的事情。

And the prison guards, so who were not students, the prison guards, they beat them, they tortured them, all of this kind of thing.

当然，最残酷的折磨莫过于这种状态持续的时间之长。

And of course, the greatest torment of all is just how long this goes on for.

现在我要剧透了。

So huge spoiler alert now.

这些人将被囚禁四百四十四天。

These guys are going to be in captivity for four hundred and forty four days.

这远远超出了他们原本的预期，甚至也超出了学生的预期。

So far, far longer than they had envisaged, or indeed, the students had envisaged.

有趣的是，这一点。

I mean, is the interesting thing.

那么问题来了，为什么？

So the question is, why?

这从来不是学生们的计划的一部分。

This was never part of the students' plan.

他们为什么不让这些人走？

Why didn't they let them go?

那阿亚图拉承诺说，只要你给我打个电话，我就能搞定，这又怎么说呢？

And what about the Ayatollah's promise that, you know, just get on the phone to me and I'll sort it out?

这就到了故事的核心，关于阿亚图拉的部分。

Well, this is where we get to the nub of the story at the Ayatollah.

所以，霍梅尼尽管在1979年和1980年，尤其是美国报纸上常有说法，但他几乎肯定对他们的计划一无所知，即使有所耳闻，也只可能是最模糊的暗示。

So, Khomeini, despite what was often said in, you know, particularly American newspapers in 1979 and 1980, Khomeini almost certainly knew nothing about their plan, or if he did know anything, the vaguest possible intimations of it.

因为我们知道，当他的外交部长去向他报告这件事时，霍梅尼非常惊讶，他说：‘这些人是谁？’

Because we know that when his foreign minister went to him and said, this is what has happened, Khomeini was really surprised, and he said, and I quote, who are these people?

他们为什么要这么做？

Why have they done this?

把他们赶出去。

Go and kick them out.

这是他最初在11月4日中午左右的反应。

So that was his initial reaction, sort of midday or so on the November 4.

但到了当晚，他已经似乎改变了主意。

But by that evening, he already seems to have changed his mind.

有人暗示这是因为他的儿子在德黑兰，儿子曾前往大使馆并汇报了情况。

And it there's some suggestions that this is because his son was in Tehran, and his son went to the embassy and reported back.

他说学生们都是你的狂热粉丝。

He said the students are massive fans of yours.

他们是以你的名义行动的，而且人们都非常支持。

They're doing this in your name, and people love it.

德黑兰街头的反应是狂喜、喜悦与兴奋。

The reaction on the streets of Tehran is one of delirium, of joy, of ecstasy.

每个人都认为这是最伟大的胜利。

Everybody thinks this is the most tremendous coup.

更甚的是，实际上在几天内，大使馆就变成了一个热门旅游景点。

And what is more, actually, within days, the embassy becomes a massive tourist attraction.

大批人群会前往参观。

Great crowds will go.

他们正在庆祝并欢呼。

They're celebrating and cheering.

有人在出售霍梅尼的布道录音带。

There are people selling tapes of Khomeini's sermons.

他们是在买纪念品吗？

Are they kind of taking souvenirs?

是的。

Yeah.

有人在出售纪念帽之类的东西。

There are people selling souvenir hats and stuff.

我的意思是，我读到这个后，试着进行了热情的网络搜索。

I mean, I I read this, and I I try I did some googling, enthusiastic googling.

我不知道纪念美国大使馆被占领的帽子会是什么样子。

I don't know what a souvenir US embassy seizure hat would look like.

一顶牛仔帽？

A Stetson?

不是。

No.

我不确定，它们会是斯特森帽吗？

I don't well, would they be Stetsons?

我的意思是，谁在德黑兰生产斯特森帽？

Mean, who's making Stetsons in Tehran?

棒球帽。

Baseball caps.

也许是棒球帽。

Maybe baseball caps.

我的意思是，那些是

I mean, are

这些是伊朗人戴的帽子。

these are these hats that the The Iranians are wearing.

它们不是从美国大使馆抢来的帽子。

They're not hats that they've taken from the US embassy.

不是。

No.

美国大使馆里可能有多少顶帽子呢？

How many hats could there have possibly been in the US embassy?

我猜美国大使必须拥有一顶斯特森帽是惯例。

I imagine it's obligatory for a US ambassador to have a Stetson.

当然。

Surely.

但我的意思是，那也只有一顶斯特森帽。

But, I mean, that's only one Stetson.

他们正在大量售卖帽子。

They're selling loads of hats.

不管怎样，我们已经偏离主题，扯到帽子和帽饰上了。

Anyway, that that we've got sidetracked into this hat issue, millinery.

我们可不是在谈帽饰，汤姆。

We're not the rest as millinery, Tom.

所以回到霍梅尼，我认为这是一个很好的例子，展现了他被低估的政治手腕，因为他看出这是维持对街头控制力的完美象征性议题。

So to go back to Khomeini, this is a good example, I think, of his political skill, his underrated political skill, because he sees this is the perfect symbolic issue to maintain his hold on the streets.

因为他拖得越久，对他就越有利。

Because the longer he can spin all this out, the better for him.

这使得他临时政府中所谓的温和派显得软弱无力，同时让更极端的势力、强硬派和革命委员会得以积累支持。

It makes the sort of so called moderates in his interim government look a bit weak and feeble, and it allows the more extreme elements, the hardline elements, the revolutionary committees to build support.

因此，博凯·莫因所著的霍梅尼传记中引用了他与一位朋友的对话。

So Baquet Moyn's biography of Khomeini quotes him talking to a friend.

我们扣押人质，完成内部工作，然后再释放他们。

We keep the hostages, finish our internal work, then release them.

这已经团结了我们的人民。

This has united our people.

我们可以毫无困难地将宪法交由人民公投，并举行总统和议会选举。

We can put the constitution to the people's vote without difficulty and carry out the presidential and parliamentary elections.

当我们完成所有这些工作后，就可以释放人质了。

And when we've finished all these jobs, then we can let the hostages go.

换句话说，我们会一直扣押他们，直到我们稳固对伊朗的控制为止。

So in other words, we keep them for as long as we need to cement our control of Iran.

而且你认为，从表象上看，扣押人质是为了确保敌人不敢轻举妄动吗？

And do you think also the optics of it is that you keep a hostage to ensure that your enemy won't do anything?

即使在这个阶段，美国可能并没有计划进行军事入侵，但扣押人质仍可能在伊朗革命者潜意识中制造一种他们的革命正面临威胁的感觉。

And even though perhaps The United States were not planning by this stage a military invasion or anything, it might generate subliminally in the minds of Iranian revolutionaries the sense that their revolution is under threat by holding the hostages.

是的。

Yeah.

有可能。

Possibly.

有可能。

Possibly.

而且，这当然也能给你带来一点安全感。

And, of course, might give you a little bit of security.

你知道的。

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

美国人现在不会攻击我们，因为我们扣押了他们52名人质。

The Americans won't attack us now because we have 52 of their people held hostage.

如今，劫持人质者确实列出了一套要求。

Now the hostage takers did have a list of demands.

他们要求美国将巴列维国王交出受审。

They wanted The United States to hand over the Shah for trial.

他们还要求美国就1953年的政变正式道歉，这又涉及到了历史的层面。

They wanted the Americans to issue a formal apology for the coup of nineteen fifty three, so that sort of sense of history again.

他们还要求美国银行释放伊朗所有被冻结的资产。

And they wanted American banks to release all Iran's frozen assets.

但我认为这些要求根本无关紧要，而这一点美国人始终没有真正理解——白宫和国务院始终无法明白，这些要求其实无关紧要，因为霍梅尼和神职人员根本不想释放人质。

But I think these demands are completely beside the point, and this is something that Americans never really realized that the White House, the State Department could never quite get into their heads, that the demands were irrelevant because Khomeini and the clerics didn't want to release the hostages.

他们太有用了。

They were too useful.

因为这样一来，他立刻就能获得成果。

Because right away, he gets results.

巴扎尔甘领导的临时政府，就是那个留着山羊胡的人和他的那些手下，在大使馆被占领几天后就辞职了。

The interim government of Barzagan, the goatee bearded guy and all these people, they resigned days after the embassy seizure.

他们对大使馆被占领感到震惊。

They were shocked by the embassy seizure.

他们辞职后，霍梅尼心想：太棒了。

They resigned, and Khomeini thought, well, brilliant.

因为这样一来，强硬派就无人挑战地以我的名义掌权了，而这正是他想要的。

Because basically now the hardliners are left unchallenged to wield power in my name, which is what he wanted.

但美国人似乎并没有真正意识到这一点。

But the Americans, I think, didn't really realize this.

华盛顿的大多数人认为伊朗人会急于谈判。

Most people in Washington thought that the Iranians would be keen to negotiate.

在国务院，普遍的假设是，这大概只是钱的问题，我们可以达成协议。

And in the state department, the working assumption was, probably this is all about money, and we can do a deal.

我们可以释放伊朗被冻结的银行资产，这样就能换回人质。

We can release frozen Iranian bank assets, and that way we'll get the hostages back.

而且你知道，这需要几周时间，最坏的情况下是几个月，但完全可行。

And, you know, this will take weeks, worst case months, but it's perfectly doable.

事实上，令人荒谬的是，卡特连任团队中的一些人认为这会对他有利。

And in fact, the mad thing, some of Carter's reelection team thought this would work in his favor.

所以他将面临来自查帕奎迪克的泰德·肯尼迪的挑战。

So he's gonna be facing a challenge from, Chappaquiddicks, Ted Kennedy.

他们认为，这能让卡特把自己裹在国旗里。

And they think, well, this will allow Carter to wrap himself in the flag.

肯尼迪在玩政治。

Kennedy is playing politics.

你知道，总统正在为人质尽一切努力。

Well, you know, the president is doing all he can for the hostages.

卡特的幕僚长汉密尔顿·乔丹说，让我们把这件事放在头版。

And Carter's chief of staff, Hamilton Jordan, said, let's keep this on the front pages.

这太疯狂了。

That's mad.

这是最糟糕的策略。

That's that's the worst strategy.

我知道。

I know.

我知道。

I know.

这真是个疯狂的策略。

It's a mad strategy.

他说，引述一下，这将很好地展现卡特与我们来自马萨诸塞州的朋友在应对危机时的对比。

He said, I quote, it will provide a nice contrast between Carter and our friend from Massachusetts in how to handle a crisis.

天哪。

Oh, god.

我的意思是，他们俩都不太行。

I mean, neither of them are very good

在危机中，这一点必须承认。

in the crisis, that has to be said.

不。

No.

所以卡特对整个事件极其认真。

So Carter takes this whole business incredibly seriously.

他睡不着觉。

He can't sleep.

他总是去参加祷告会。

He's always going off to prayer meetings.

他坚持亲自会见所有人质的家属。

He insists him personally meeting the families of all the hostages.

他的助手们对他非常担心。

His aides become quite worried about him.

他们说，你知道，他一直在谈论人质，不断召开各种会议。

They say, you know, he's just constantly going on about hostages, having all these meetings.

我认为，这其中很多都是内疚。

And a lot of this, I think, is guilt.

因为当国会议员问他，这是否是因为我们接纳了沙阿而导致的问题时。

Because when he was asked by congressional leaders, you know, is this kind of our fault for admitting the shah?

他非常不耐烦地回应说：‘我才不在乎你们喜不喜欢沙阿。’

He snapped at them in a very un you know, I don't give a damn whether or not you like the Shah, he said.

这种易怒的态度让我觉得，是的。

And the tetchiness suggests to me Yeah.

因为他觉得自己对接纳沙阿这件事负有个人责任。

That he feels personally responsible because he admitted the Shah.

他其实并不想这么做。

He didn't really want to do it.

他最终让步了。

He gave in.

他让沙阿入境，结果就变成了这样。

He let the Shah in, and this is the result.

然而，短期内，奇怪的是，这反而对他有利，因为这一点在关于人质危机的叙述中常常被忽略。

However, in the short term, oddly, it does work in his favor because this is a a thing that's often sort of elided in in accounts of the hostage crisis.

1979年11月，他的支持率大幅上升。

There was a big jump in his approval rating in November 1979.

这是因为你团结在国旗之下，不是吗？

Well, because you rallied to the flag, don't you?

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

我的意思是，就像9·11事件之后，情报严重失误。

I mean, it's like in the wake of nine eleven, disastrous intelligent failure.

每个人都觉得布什很英明。

Everyone thinks Bush is brilliant.

是的。

Yes.

没错。

Exactly.

但这种支持率的激增只有在他成功解救人质后才能持续。

But this sort of spike in his popularity will only be sustainable if he gets the hostages out.

如果他没能救出他们，是的。

If he doesn't get them out Yeah.

这种热度必然会消退。

It's bound to fade.

另一点是，他想做的事和他幕僚长想做的事，他们都希望把他的总统任期完全聚焦在把人质接回家上，因为他们认为这会对他有利。

And the other thing is what he wants to do and what his chief of staff wants to do, they want to make his presidency now all about getting the hostages home, because they think it will work in his favor.

但这太鲁莽了。

But that's so reckless.

因为他正把自己的总统任期押注在那些他根本无法理解的德黑兰决策者身上。

Because if he's mortgaging his presidency to the decisions of people in Tehran that he doesn't understand.

是的。

Yeah.

现在，另一点是，我说的那些他无法理解的人，实际上华盛顿至今也没人真正理解霍梅尼。

Now, the other thing is, I say people he doesn't understand, nobody in Washington still understands the Ayatollah Khomeini.

我的意思是，我们在之前的节目中谈到过这位阿亚图拉那种末世论的意识，你知道的，他那种赤裸裸、充满张力的末日神学视野。

I mean, you were talking in our previous episodes about the Ayatollah's his apocalyptic sense, his, you know, the the the sort of the red, raw intensity of his eschatological, theological vision.

嗯。

Mhmm.

华盛顿没有人对此有丝毫理解。

No one in Washington has the slightest sense of this.

我的意思是，国家安全委员会的伊朗问题专家加里·西克后来写道。

I mean, the National Security Council's Iran specialist guy called Gary Sikh wrote afterwards.

加里·西克？

Gary Sikh?

他的名字就叫加里·西克。

Gary Sikh was his name.

没人知道霍梅尼究竟是怎样的人。

Nobody knew what kind of person Khomeini was.

他完全超出了美国政府任何人所能经历，甚至想象的范围。

He was simply beyond the experience, if not the imagination of anyone in the United States government.

他们对此毫无概念。

They have no sense of this.

霍梅尼随后的做法出乎他们的意料，他对此乐在其中，并将其个人化，变成他与吉米·卡特之间的一颗明珠。

What Khomeini then does, which they didn't expect, he loves this, and he personalizes it, and he makes it into a jewel between himself and Jimmy Carter.

因此，在占领美国大使馆后不久，霍梅尼就接受了美国三大电视台的采访。

So Khomeini gave interviews to all three American networks, pretty much straight after the seizure of the US embassy.

他完全镇定自若。

He was completely unflappable.

他毫无悔意。

He was completely unrepentant.

他说人质都是间谍。

He said the hostages were spies.

这全是卡特的错。

This is all Carter's fault.

是卡特作为罪犯，违反国际法允许沙阿入境，而他则嘲讽卡特。

It's Carter who's the criminal breaking international law by admitting the shah, and he mocked Carter.

这又是，你一直觉得阿亚图拉如此严肃而令人敬畏，但实际上

This is, again, you you think of the the Ayatollah as so grim and formidable, which of

当然，他确实是。

course he was.

但不得不说，他身上有种校园恶霸的气质。

But there is a sort of there's a bit of the school bully in him, I have to say.

他明确表示，卡特是在敲一面空鼓。

He says explicitly, Carter is beating an empty drum.

卡特没有勇气采取军事行动。

Carter does not have the guts to engage in military action.

软弱，软弱，太软弱了。

Weak, weak, weak.

是的。

Yeah.

但我也不禁想，这位阿亚图拉是否真有一种末日般的愿景，我们之前讨论过这个。

But I wonder also though, whether there isn't you know, we talked about this apocalyptic vision that the Ayatollah has.