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谁有言语能描绘那晚的灾难？
Who has words to capture that night's disaster?
讲述那场屠杀吧。
Tell that slaughter.
如今，还有什么泪水能与我们的痛苦相匹敌？
What tears could match our torments now?
一座古城正在崩塌。
An ancient city is falling.
统治了无数世代的强权，如今化为废墟。
A power that ruled for ages now in ruins.
到处都是死去者的静止身躯，散落在她的街道、家园，以及遍布各处的神庙之中。
Everywhere lie the motionless bodies of the dead, strewn in her streets, her homes, and the gods' shrines all over now.
被风卷起的吞噬之火，翻腾着扑向屋顶，火焰汹涌而上，灼热的烈焰直冲天际。
Devouring fire whipped by the winds goes churning into the rooftops, flames surging over them, scorching blasts raging up the sky.
从燃烧的神庙中抢掠的财宝，祭坛、纯金的器皿，以及从各处夺来的圣袍，敌人都已高高堆起，作为战利品。
Treasure hauled from burning temples, the sacramental tables, bowls of solid gold, and the holy robes seized from every quarter, the enemy piling high the plunder.
儿童和颤抖的母亲们被驱赶成一条漫长无尽的队伍。
Children and trembling mothers rounded up in a long endless line.
那就是古罗马最伟大的诗人维吉尔，他写作的时间距离汉尼拔与罗马人的大战几乎两个世纪之久——这也是本史诗系列的主题，也比本故事中一位主角——地中海城市迦太基——最终覆灭的时间晚了一个世纪左右。
So that was the greatest of all Roman poets, Virgil, and he was writing almost two centuries after Hannibal's great war against the Romans, the subject of this epic series, and a century or so after the final defeat of one of the protagonists in this story, the Mediterranean city of Carthage.
汤姆，在那首名为《埃涅阿斯纪》的诗中，由罗伯特·法格尔斯翻译的版本里，维吉尔是不是在带我们回到迦太基的传奇起源？
Tom, in that poem, the Aeneid, which is translated there by Robert Fagles, Virgil is taking us back, isn't he, to the legendary beginnings of Carthage.
它的建立故事被神话层层笼罩，源于腓尼基女王狄多。
So shrouded in myth, the story of its foundation by the Phoenician queen Dido.
来自腓尼基的殖民者正努力建造这座新城。
And the colonists from Phoenicia are laboring to build the new city.
他们正在拆除城墙。
They're razing the walls.
他们正在建造宫殿与神庙、港口，而这些正是罗马人日后将摧毁的设施。
They're building the palaces and temples, the harbors that the Romans will later destroy.
就在此时，一群衣衫褴褛的难民因船只失事漂流到非洲海岸，这些人是特洛伊人。
And at this point, this bedraggled group of refugees who've been shipwrecked off the African coast turn up, and these people are Trojans.
他们是。
They are.
所以，正如
So they are, as
你所说的，他们是被希腊人洗劫特洛伊后的难民。
you say, refugees from the sack of Troy by the Greeks.
而正在讲述这些诗句的人，你刚才如此有力地朗读的，是他们的领袖——一位名叫埃涅阿斯的王子，他是爱与美之神维纳斯的儿子。
And the man speaking, the lines that you you read so powerfully, is their leader, a prince called Aeneas, who is the son of Venus, the goddess of love and beauty.
在这一段中，埃涅阿斯描述了亲历特洛伊毁灭、目睹其高耸的塔楼被烈火吞噬的感受。
And Aeneas, in that passage, is describing what it had been like to live through the destruction of Troy, to watch its topless towers consumed by fire.
他之所以讲述这段经历，是因为迪多为他举办了一场盛大的宴会以示敬意，而迪多已经爱上了埃涅阿斯。
And he is giving this account at a great feast that has been held in his honor by Dido because she has fallen in love with Aeneas.
我们曾在关于迦太基的第一集中讨论过这一点，也就是大约四百年前的事了。
And we talked about this in the very first episode that we did on Carthage, I mean, about four hundred years ago.
实际上，我觉得那是第421集。
Actually, I think it was episode 421.
听过这段的人可能会记得，这场盛宴之后发生了什么。
And people who listen to that may remember what happens next after this feast.
因为埃涅阿斯和狄多一起去打猎。
Because Aeneas and Dido go out hunting.
突然下起了风暴。
There's a storm.
他们躲进了一个洞穴。
They take shelter in a cave.
在洞穴里，大地震动了。
And while they're in the cave, the earth moves.
从这一刻起，狄多认为他们已经成为夫妻，尽管埃涅阿斯并不这么想。
And Dido, although not Aeneas, assumes from this point on that they are now man and wife.
对狄多来说，问题在于埃涅阿斯的命运早已由众神，尤其是众神之王朱庇特，安排好了。
The problem for Dido is that Aeneas has this destiny that has been plotted out for him by the gods and specifically by Jupiter, the king of the gods.
这个命运就是：埃涅阿斯必须航行到意大利，在那里建立一座城镇，最终将孕育出罗马。
And this destiny is that Aeneas has to sail to Italy and found a town there that in due course will result in the founding of Rome.
因此，朱庇特派众神的信使墨丘利下凡去找埃涅阿斯，对他说：别再跟这个迦太基女人纠缠了。
And so Jupiter sends Mercury, the messenger of the gods, down to Aeneas and says, you know, stop hanging around with this Carthaginian woman.
快走吧。
Get on.
去建立罗马。
Go and found Rome.
埃涅阿斯非常顺从众神的旨意。
And Aeneas is very obedient to the will of the gods.
于是他抛弃了狄多，启航前往意大利。
And so he dumps Dido, and he sails away from Carthage for Italy.
狄多因被如此对待而悲痛欲绝，用埃涅阿斯的剑自尽身亡，但在死前，她诅咒自己的后代要对埃涅阿斯的后裔怀有永不消逝的仇恨。
And Dido is so distraught at being portrayed like this that she stabs herself to death with Aeneas' sword, but not before she has called for her descendants to nurture an undying hatred for the descendants of Aeneas.
岸与岸相撞，海与海相抗，剑与剑相击。
Shore clash with shore, sea against sea, and sword against sword.
这是我的诅咒。
This is my curse.
我们所有民族之间的战争，所有他们的孩子。
War between all our peoples, all their children.
无尽的战争。
Endless war.
这就是她的诅咒，对吧？
That's her curse, isn't it?
这就是一切的开端。
And that's how it all begins.
于是她召唤一个恶魔从她的骨骸中升起，一个尚不为人知的复仇者，去追捕埃涅阿斯的后裔，用火焰与铁器猎杀他们。
So she summons a demon to rise up from her bones, an avenger still unknown, to stalk the descendants of Aeneas, and to hunt them down with fire and iron.
汤姆，这个恶魔是谁？
And Tom, who is this demon?
我的意思是，每个在奥古斯都时代读《埃涅阿斯纪》的罗马人都清楚指的是谁。
Well, I mean, every Roman reading The Aeneid when it came out in the age of of Augustus knew exactly who was meant.
那就是汉尼拔，汉尼拔·巴尔卡——那位伟大的军事天才，他的生涯我们在之前的节目中已经描述过，他确实长达近二十年用火焰与铁器与罗马人作战。
It was Hannibal, Hannibal Barker, that great military genius whose career we've been describing in our previous episodes, who for almost two decades had indeed fought the Romans with fire and iron.
正如我们在上一集中听到的，汉尼拔最终沦为被追捕的逃亡者，一个战败的逃亡者，于公元前183年自尽。
Now Hannibal, as we heard in our last episode, ends up this hunted fugitive, this defeated fugitive, kills himself in a hundred and eighty three BC.
但这恰恰衡量了他给罗马带来的冲击以及他在罗马人心中激起的恐惧——甚至在他去世一个半世纪多之后，在奥古斯都时代，你知道，当罗马帝国辉煌屹立，在地球上无可匹敌时，汉尼拔依然萦绕在罗马人的记忆中。
But it's the measure of the shock he had given Rome and of the terror that he had inspired in Roman hearts that still more than a century and a half after his death, in the age of Augustus, you know, when the Roman Empire stands splendid and without a conceivable rival on the face of the planet, Hannibal continues to haunt the memory of the Romans.
因此，我想不难想象，对于那些亲身经历他入侵意大利的罗马人，以及在他对罗马发动的那场大战后一两代出生的罗马人来说，他必定是一个可怕的梦魇。
And so I think it's not hard to imagine what a bogeyman he must have seemed to Romans who had lived through his invasion of Italy and who were born in the generation or two after the great war that he had prosecuted against the Romans.
这意味着，尽管迦太基已被击败并被迫接受惩罚性的和平协议，但汉尼拔的记忆以及迦太基对意大利的袭击意味着，对于罗马人来说，在胜利后的几十年里，迦太基仍然是头号敌人。
So that means that even though Carthage has been defeated and forced to accept a punitive peace deal, The memory of Hannibal and of Carthage's assault on Italy means that for the Romans, in the decades after victory, Carthage remains the supreme enemy.
你知道，我是不是说得有点过，但罗马人是否依然觉得
You know, there's is that would I be going too far to say there's still a
有些未了之事？
sense of unfinished business for the Romans?
完全如此。
Completely.
完全如此。
Completely.
听众可能记得，在我们之前的系列中，我们谈到了公元前218年汉尼拔为入侵意大利所做的准备，当时他做了一个梦。
Listeners may remember that that in our previous series, we talked about Hannibal's preparations for the invasion of Italy in 02/18, And he has a dream.
在这个梦中，他看到一条巨大的蛇紧随其后，随着他入侵意大利而行进。
And in that dream, he sees a giant serpent that is following in his wake as he invades Italy.
这条蛇所到之处，树木和灌木遭到严重破坏，身后伴随着震耳欲聋的雷暴。
And this serpent, quote, causing massive destruction to trees and bushes, a deafening thunderstorm following in its wake.
随后，一位神祇向他解释了这条蛇的含义。
And a god then explains to him what this serpent is.
这条蛇就是汉尼拔本人，因此这个梦境预示了罗马人所说的‘意大利的毁灭’。
This serpent is Hannibal himself, and so the dream is portending what the Romans called the Vastatio Italiae, the destruction of Italy.
而这正是汉尼拔对意大利所造成的破坏。
And that is exactly what Hannibal had inflicted on Italy.
因此，伤亡人数极其惨重，数十万人死亡，农田、葡萄园和果园年复一年地化为灰烬。
So monstrous casualty figures, hundreds of thousands of people dead, fields, vineyards, orchards going up in flames year after year after year.
罗马人和意大利各族人民从未经历过如此规模的灾难。
And nothing like it had remotely been experienced by the Romans or the peoples of Italy.
你知道，两三代人以来，从未发生过这样的事。
You know, for two or three generations, there hadn't been anything like this.
如今，历史学家们对汉尼拔对意大利造成的破坏程度有着相当大的争议。
And today, there is considerable debate among historians about how bad the damage inflicted by Hannibal on Italy actually was.
因此，观点从完全末日般的描述，到仅仅是相当严重的破坏，不一而足。
So opinions range from completely apocalyptic to merely, you know, pretty devastating.
没错。
Right.
但无论破坏有多严重，重要的是，罗马人在汉尼拔战争之后，将这段历史铭记为彻底的毁灭。
But however bad it was, what mattered was that the Romans, in the wake of Hannibal's war, remembered it as complete devastation.
所以引用西蒙·霍恩布洛尔的话来说，他完全正确。
So to quote Simon Hornblower on this, mean, he's absolutely right.
无论汉尼拔实际造成的破坏是大是小，他长期驻留所带来的创伤都不太可能被轻易遗忘。
The trauma of Hannibal's lengthy presence, however great or small the actual damage he wrought, will not have been easily forgotten.
从这个意义上说，汉尼拔的梦或许真是一则预言。
To that extent, Hannibal's dream may have been a true prophecy.
感知本身就是一种现实。
Perceptions are a kind of reality.
我的意思是，我们都知道，历史上一直如此。
I mean, we we know we know that throughout history.
而罗马人，我的意思是，迦太基人造成的破坏已经深深植根于罗马人的想象之中。
And the Romans I mean, the the damage that the Carthaginians have inflicted is so deeply embedded in the Roman imagination.
因此，罗马人谈起迦太基人时，
So the Romans come to talk about the Carthaginians.
他们会使用这些表达：‘布匿之信’、‘布匿之诈’。
They use these expressions punica fides, punica fraus.
意思是，迦太基人几乎就是残忍、欺骗、背信、欺诈等所有负面特质的语言化身。
The idea that the Carthaginians are the embodiments, the almost the linguistic embodiments of cruelty and deceit and infidelity and fraud and all of these kinds of things.
迦太基人在罗马人的想象中，逐渐变成了近乎恶魔般的存在。
And the Carthaginians come to assume this almost kind of demonic place in the Roman imagination.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，如果你想想英国人在第一次世界大战后，甚至更在第二次世界大战后如何看待德国人
I mean, I think if you if you think about how the British viewed the Germans in the wake of the First World War and even more the Second World War
嗯。
Mhmm.
这和罗马人看待迦太基人的方式有些相似。
There is something of that, the way that the Romans view the Carthaginians.
听过这个系列的人可能会觉得这有点讽刺，因为罗马人自己也以残忍、欺骗和背信弃义而闻名。
And people who've listened to this series may well feel that this is a bit rich because the Romans as well have been known to display cruelty and deceit and treachery and so on.
但这其实并不重要，因为罗马人就是这么想的。
But that doesn't really matter because the Romans felt what they felt.
这不仅仅是对迦太基人的普遍憎恨，更是一种持久的、最终非理性的恐惧。
And this wasn't just a kind of widespread loathing of the Carthaginians, but something more, a kind of abiding fear that was ultimately irrational.
非理性，是因为迦太基人已经被彻底击败了。
Well, irrational because the Carthaginians have been completely beaten.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道的，彻底被摧毁了。
You know, completely smashed.
很明显，迦太基作为强国的时代已经终结了，因为罗马在汉尼拔战败后强加给迦太基的条款，本意就是要让它永远无法翻身。
It is so clear that that, you know, the days of Carthage as a great power are finished because the terms that the Romans had imposed on Carthage in the wake of the defeat of Hannibal had been intended to cripple her forever.
为了提醒听众这些条款是什么，巨额赔款，分五十年分期支付，旨在重创迦太基的经济，以及丧失所有海外领土。
So just to remind listeners of what those terms were, a devastating indemnity, payable in installments over the course of fifty years, designed to kneecap Carthage's economy, the loss of all her overseas territories.
迦太基曾经统治着一个庞大的帝国，你知道的，西西里、西班牙之类的，全都没了。
Carthage had ruled a great empire, you know, Sicily, Spain, whatever, all gone.
曾经，它是西地中海最强的海上力量，如今其舰队被限制在仅十艘战舰。
Once she had been the greatest naval power in the Western Mediterranean, her fleet is now limited to 10 warships.
她的外交政策完全受罗马控制，这意味着没有罗马的许可，她不得发动任何战争。
And her foreign policy is directly under the control of Rome, which means that she cannot go to war without Roman permission.
所以，与此同时，罗马通过这些手段彻底削弱了迦太基。
So at the same time that the Romans have done that, so they've so Carthage has been kneecapped by all this.
但在迦太基的西翼——我们仍处于北非地区。
But on the western flank of, Carthage, so that's we're still in North Africa.
我们之前提到过一个角色，马西尼萨，他是努米底亚人，和大西庇阿是老朋友。
We've got this character that we talked about before, Massinissa, who is Numidian, and he's an old pala, Scipio Africanus.
他基本上被设立为制衡迦太基的力量，对吧？
And he has basically been set up as a counterbalance to the Carthaginians, hasn't he?
所以他是罗马人的铁杆盟友。
So he's a great pal of the Romans.
他不断蚕食迦太基的内陆地区，比如北非的橄榄树林之类的。
He is constantly kind of biting off bits of Carthage's sort of hinterland, so the kind of, I don't know, the olive groves of North Africa and so on.
是的。
Yeah.
他一直在不停地一点点啃食他们。
He's kind of nibbling away at them all the time.
是的。
Yeah.
而且他们之间不断发生边境争端之类的事情。
And he's there are constant kind of border disputes and whatnot.
基本上，努米底亚人年复一年地侵蚀着迦太基的核心地带。
And, basically, the Numidians are they're eroding Carthage's heartland year on year.
是的。
Yeah.
对于马西尼萨来说，这相当于仆人反叛主人，因为努米底亚人曾经臣服于迦太基。
And for Massanissa, I mean, this is the servant turning on the master because the Numidians had been subject to Carthage.
所以通过一片片蚕食迦太基的领土，他实际上是在向那个旧日的帝国主母复仇。
And so by salami slicing Carthage's territory, I mean, he's getting his own back on, you know, the old imperial mistress.
因此，可怜的迦太基人对此几乎无能为力，因为他们被禁止对抗马西尼萨。
And so the poor Carthaginians, they can't really do anything about this because they're not allowed to fight Massanissa off.
所以他们唯一能做的就是派使团前往罗马，投诉努米底亚人的这些侵占行为。
And so all they can really do is send embassies to Rome complaining about these encroachments by the Numidians.
但显然，马西尼萨是罗马人民的盟友。
But, obviously, Massinissa, you know, he's he's an ally of the Roman people.
他也可以派出自己的使团，并确信自己的声音会被听到。
He can send embassies of his own and be assured of getting heard.
例如在公元前171年，迦太基人前往罗马提出申诉。
So in a hundred and seventy one, for instance, Carthaginians have gone to Rome to complain.
马西尼萨派出了自己的儿子。
Massinissa sends his own son.
马西尼萨的这个儿子非常清楚如何应对罗马人。
And this son of Massinus' is he knows exactly how to play the Romans.
他不断指控迦太基人背信弃义、狡诈多端。
So he's endlessly going on about how the Carthaginians are treacherous and deceitful.
小心布匿人的诡计，诸如此类的话。
Beware of Punic deceit, all this kind of stuff.
因此，迦太基人得不到公正对待。
And so the Carthaginians don't get justice.
罗马人忽视迦太基人的投诉，不仅因为他们偏向努米底亚，也因为确实担心迦太基可能卷土重来。
And the Romans ignore Carthaginian complaints not just because they are pro Numidian, but also to reiterate because they are genuinely fearful that Carthage might make a comeback.
因此他们觉得必须不断削弱她的领土。
And so they feel that she has to you know, her territory has to constantly be eroded.
但这太疯狂了。
But this is mad.
我的意思是，
I mean, there's
迦太基根本不可能卷土重来。
no prospect of Carthage coming back.
为了让大家对地图有个概念，汉尼拔战败三十年后，罗马的势力已经遍布地中海。
Well, to give people a sense of the map, so we're three decades on after the defeat of Hannibal, the Romans' power is is spreading across the Mediterranean.
以西班牙为例，我们之前谈了很多关于西班牙的事。
So to give the example of Spain, we talked a lot about Spain.
西班牙及其矿产财富对迦太基的国力至关重要。
Spain and its mineral wealth have been so important to Carthaginian power.
但罗马人已经基本巩固了对西班牙沿海地区的控制。
But the Romans have basically formalized their control of the coastal bits of Spain.
他们从迦太基手中征服了这些地区。
They've conquered from Carthage.
他们已将这些地区组织成行省。
They've organized them into provinces.
他们正在向北非内陆推进。
They're pushing inland in North Africa.
我们显然已经谈过努米底亚了。
So we've obviously talked about, Numidia.
努米底亚基本上是一个罗马的附庸国。
Numidia is basically a Roman client state.
我的意思是，从很多方面来看，迦太基也是一个罗马附庸国，因为它必须遵守和平条约的所有条款。
I mean, in many ways, Carthage is a Roman client state as well because it's subject to all the the demands of the peace treaty.
我们上一次谈到了希腊。
We talked last time about Greece.
我们现在正进入亚历山大大帝帝国的残余部分。
You know, we're getting into the kind of remnants of Alexander the Great's empire now.
因此在希腊，罗马人已经发动了这些毁灭性的打击。
So in Greece, the Romans have been launching these devastating strikes.
他们已经使亚历山大的继承者、马其顿国王们屈服了。
They've humbled the heirs of Alexander, the Macedonian kings.
我们上次谈过这个。
We talked about that last time.
罗马军团已经击败了马其顿方阵。
The legions have defeated the Macedonian phalanx.
尽管罗马人并没有直接统治马其顿或希腊，但罗马的主导地位和控制权在希腊各地基本上已被承认，对吧？
And although the Romans are not ruling Macedonia or Greece directly, Roman primacy, Roman control is basically acknowledged, isn't it, throughout Greece?
是的。
Yeah.
我认为罗马人觉得，如果他们的战略需求要求希腊人屈服，交出部分领土或自治权之类的，那他们就必须这么做。
And I think the Romans feel that that if their strategic demands require the Greeks to knuckle down and kind of surrender chunks of territory or autonomy or whatever, then they have to do it.
这其中或许带有一点唐纳德·特朗普对待格陵兰的态度。
And there's perhaps slight element of Donald Trump's attitude to Greenland about all this.
随着希腊和巴尔干地区越来越必须遵从罗马的决定，罗马人也越来越觉得，根本没必要再让马其顿保留任何自治权了。
And increasingly, the more that Greece and the the Balkans kinda have to do what the Romans say, the Romans decide, well, there's no point in allowing the Macedonians to have any autonomy at all.
我的意思是，我们干脆彻底了结它吧。
I mean, we might as well snuff that out.
因此，在1968年6月1日，罗马军团再次与马其顿方阵交战，这场大战发生在马其顿海岸的皮德纳。
So in 06/01/1968, the legions once again meet with a Macedonian phalanx, and it's fought in a great battle on the Macedonian coast, a place called Pydna.
这场战役中指挥罗马军团的将领名叫埃米利乌斯·保卢斯。
And the guy in command of the Roman legions at this battle is called Aemilius Paullus.
如果这个名字听起来耳熟，那是因为他是曾在坎尼战役中阵亡的埃米利乌斯·保卢斯的儿子——那场战役是汉尼拔取得的伟大胜利。
And if that sounds familiar, then it's because he is the son of the Aemilius Paulus who had died at Cannae, Hannibal's great victory.
而在皮德纳的埃米利乌斯·保卢斯承认，马其顿方阵推进时的景象如此可怕，以至于他一度担心自己会重蹈父亲的覆辙，遭遇同样的失败。
And Aemilius Paulus at Pydna, he confessed that the advance of the Macedonian phalanx was such a terrifying sight that he had briefly dreaded that he might suffer a defeat similar to that suffered by his father.
但最终，他取得了这场辉煌而彻底的胜利。
But in the event he wins this spectacular, utterly crushing victory.
罗马军团士兵更加灵活、机动性更强，能够利用方阵阵型中出现的缝隙渗透进去。
So the legionaries, you know, they're much more flexible, much more mobile, and they're able to infiltrate the phalanx through gaps that open up in its ranks.
随后便是一场大屠杀。
And then it's just a massacre.
方阵中的士兵拿着巨大的长矛，面对罗马人使用的短剑，根本毫无还手之力。
The people in the phalanx have these huge long spears, so they're hapless against the gladius, the stabbing sword that the Romans are using.
整个战场顿时变成一片血海与内脏的汪洋。
And the whole battlefield just becomes this great sea of blood and viscera.
他们的内脏到处乱溅，马其顿人的肠子流得满地都是。
All their guts are kinda you know, the Macedonian guts are spilling out.
马其顿国王被俘。
The Macedonian king is captured.
他被废黜，最终在保卢斯的凯旋游行中被押着穿过罗马街头。
He's deposed and ends up being led through the streets of Rome in Pallas' triumph.
马其顿本身被废除君主制，分裂成四个由可疑小共和国统治的 petty cantons（小行政区）。
And Macedon itself, the monarchy is abolished, and it is divided up into these kind of four petty cantons under dodgy little republics.
这显然是一个不稳定的配方，但对罗马人来说，这恰恰正是他们的目的。
And this is obviously a recipe for instability, but that for the Romans is precisely the point.
你知道，他们并不是来直接统治的，但他们希望马其顿既顺从又无力反抗。
You know, they're not there to administer direct rule, but what they do want is Macedon left both submissive and impotent.
而这正是这些改革所做到的。
And that is what, you know, these reforms do.
那么，南方巴尔干其他地区也发生了同样的情况，对吧？
And then they the same thing goes for other parts of the Southern Balkans, isn't it?
所以伊庇鲁斯被洗劫了。
So Epirus Epirus is sacked.
这在西方。
That's in the West.
这靠近北西部的希腊和阿尔巴尼亚。
That's towards sort of northern Northwestern Greece, Albania.
保卢斯在那里俘虏了十多万奴隶。
Paulus takes more than a 100,000 slaves there.
而在希腊本土，他们从各个城市抓走了一千多名重要人物作为人质。
And then in Greece itself, they basically take a thousand sort of bigwigs hostage from various cities.
他们把这些人都带回意大利，因为这些人被视为过于亲马其顿、过于独立。
They take them all back to Italy, and these guys had been seen as too pro Macedonian, too independent minded.
汤姆，你这里有一个很好的类比。
And, Tom, you've got a nice analogy here.
你愿意和我们分享一下你的类比吗？
Would you like to share your analogy with us?
好的。
Yeah.
嗯，继续唐纳德·特朗普的类比，就好像他要入侵欧洲，并带回一批人质，比如布鲁塞尔的一群欧盟官员、美国社交媒体公司的监管者，当然还有BBC的总干事，他们都会被带回华盛顿并作为人质扣押。
Well, to pursue the Donald Trump analogy, it's as though he were to invade Europe and and take back as hostages, you know, a a raft of Eurocrats from Brussels, regulators of American social media companies, and obviously the director general of the BBC, and they would all be taken back to Washington and kept as hostages.
有没有现任政府中的人，你希望
Are there any people from the current government you'd like to
被三角洲部队带回华盛顿当人质？
see taken as hostages by Delta Force back to Washington?
肯定有吧。
Surely, there must be.
不予置评。
No comment.
所以这些希腊人质都被带回去了。
So all these Greek hostages are taken back.
其中有一位来自阿卡迪亚的希腊人，我们在整个系列中多次提到过他的名字，那就是波利比乌斯，他将成为记录罗马在地中海崛起的伟大历史学家。
And among them is a Greek from Arcadia whose name we have been mentioning quite a lot throughout this series, and that is Polybius who will become the great historian of Rome's rise to dominance in the Mediterranean.
波利比乌斯的历史主题，他大致已经阐明了。
And the theme of Polybius' history, he kind of he sets it out.
那就是意大利和非洲的事务如何与亚洲和希腊的事务交织在一起，所有事情都朝着同一个目标前进。
It's how the affairs of Italy and of Africa came to be interwoven with those of Asia and of Greece, and all things point in concert to a single end.
而这个唯一的目标，就是建立罗马对地中海的统治——罗马帝国。
And that single end is the establishment of a Roman imperium, a Roman empire over the Mediterranean.
波利比乌斯最终在罗马被拘禁了十七年。
And Polybius would end up spending seventeen years as a detainee in Rome.
正是因此，他得以对罗马政治、罗马宪政体制和罗马事务有了非凡的了解，并能够采访到参加过汉尼拔战争的老兵，那些曾在战争中担任要职的人。
And so this is how he came by his, you know, incredible familiarity with Roman politics, Roman constitutional arrangements, Roman affairs, and he is able to interview, veterans of the war against Hannibal, people who had taken leading roles in that war.
但从长远来看，波利比乌斯在罗马最重要的联系，并不是一位汉尼拔战争的老兵，而是一个当时仍只有十几岁的年轻人。
But in the long run, the most useful contact that Polybius makes in Rome isn't a kind of veteran of the war against Hannibal, but this guy's still in his teens.
他非常早熟，才华横溢，出身极其显赫。
He's very precocious, very brilliant, and has an absolutely kind of glittering pedigree.
因为这位男子是皮德纳战役的胜利者埃米利乌斯·保卢斯的儿子，因此他也是在坎尼战役中阵亡的埃米利乌斯·保卢斯的孙子。
Because this man is the son of the Aemilius Paulus who had won at Pidna, so he's therefore the grandson of the Aemilius Paulus who had died at Cannae.
他还是击败汉尼拔的西庇阿·阿非利加努斯的养孙。
He is also the adoptive grandson of Scipio Africanus, the man who had defeated Hannibal.
在罗马，收养是非常严肃的事情。
And in Rome, adoption is taken very seriously.
这意味着罗马人普遍将他视为西庇阿·阿非利加努斯的孙子。
So that means that he is basically seen by the Romans as the grandson of Scipio Africanus.
由于他是埃米利乌斯·帕拉斯的儿子，所以他被称为埃米利安努斯。
Because he is the son of, Aemilius Pallas, he's called Aemilianus.
所以是西庇阿·埃米利安努斯。
So Scipio Aemilianus.
他完全配得上这位伟大征服者汉尼拔的孙子的身份。
And, you know, he is a completely worthy grandson of the great conqueror of Hannibal.
他年仅17岁时就随父亲在皮德纳参战，并立下赫赫战功。
When he was only 17, he had fought with his father at Pitna, covered himself in glory.
随后他前往西班牙。
He'd then gone to Spain.
他因率先攻入敌城城墙而获得军事奖章，这相当于维多利亚十字勋章。
He had won a military crown, so basically the equivalent of a a Victoria Cross, by being the first over the wall of an enemy city.
同时，和大西庇阿一样，他也是希腊文化的狂热爱好者和杰出学者。
At the same time, like Scipio Africanus, he is a great enthusiast for Greek culture, a great scholar.
实际上，他正是通过借阅一些书籍和进行文学交流，才结识了波利比乌斯。
And, actually, this is how he'd come into contact with Polybius, through the loan of some books and, general literary chat.
所以，西庇阿·埃米利安努斯和波利比乌斯的关系，就像你和塔比即将在播客中展现的那样。
So, Scipio Aemilianus and Polybius, it's like you and Tabby will be doing on your forthcoming podcast.
这个类比里的塔比是谁？
Who's Tabby in that analogy?
我是西庇阿·埃米利安努斯。
I'm Scipio Aemilianus.
对吧？
Right?
嗯，小西庇阿年纪小得多，所以大概是Tabby。
Well, Scipio Aemilianus is much younger, so it's probably tabby.
是的。
Yeah.
但这是关于魅力的，不是吗？
But it's about charisma, isn't it?
你是个希腊俘虏。
You are this Greek hostage.
不。
No.
绝对不是。
Absolutely not.
对。
Right.
我们回到迦太基吧。
Let's get back to Carthage.
所以，西庇阿·埃米利安努斯，就像是罗马历史中的多米尼克·桑布鲁克。
So Scipio Aemilianus, the the Dominic Sambrooke of of Roman history.
是历史上其余部分的塔比西雷特。
The tabi siret of the rest of history.
他对迦太基有什么看法？
What does he make of Carthage?
因为他是那个几乎击败了迦太基的人的养孙。
Because he's the adoptive grandson of the bloke who basically defeated it.
那么，他是否觉得与迦太基还有未了结的恩怨？
So does he feel that he has unfinished business with Carthage?
他想重蹈覆辙吗？
Does he want to do the same?
实际上，似乎并不是这样。
Actually, it seems not.
我认为，大西庇阿因为是那个迫使迦太基人接受苛刻条款的人，所以他感到对迦太基负有一种特殊的责任，这有点像庇护者与被庇护者之间的关系。
I think that Scipio Africanus, because he was the guy who had forced terms on the Carthaginians and got them to accept these terms, He then felt a certain kind of responsibility towards Carthage because it's a bit like a patron with a client.
这种关系对罗马贵族来说至关重要。
That is a relationship that is very important to the Roman aristocracy.
我认为，大西庇阿本人是非常认真对待这一点的。
And I think that Scipio Africanus, you know, he took this seriously.
例如，只要汉尼拔还在迦太基，远在罗马的大西庇阿就一直支持着他。
So for instance, for as long as Hannibal was in Carthage, Scipio Africanus back in Rome had had Hannibal's back.
我认为，西庇阿家族的各个成员都继承了这种义务。
And I think all the kind of the various members of Scipio's dynasty, they share in this obligation.
我们可以从波利比乌斯那里看到这一点，他显然深受西庇阿家族观点的影响。
So we can see this from Polybius, who is obviously very influenced by what the the Scipio dynasty think.
他总是描述迦太基人如何前往罗马，投诉马西尼萨不断割占他们的领土。
So he's always describing how the Carthaginians are going to Rome to complain about Massanissa slicing off bits of their territory.
而波利比乌斯，我的意思是，他强调这些投诉都是有道理的。
And Polybius, you know I mean, he emphasizes that these complaints are just.
而且可以推测，他说这些话时，是在呼应他的斯奇皮奥赞助人的观点。
And presumably in saying that, he is picking up on the opinion of his Scipionic patrons.
但我认为，在罗马，这属于少数派观点。
But I think it's fair to say that this in Rome is a minority position.
尤其有一个人，认为任何试图削弱对迦太基严苛待遇的行为，本质上都是一种叛国行为。
And there is one person in particular who views any kind of attempt to water down the harshness with which Carthage is is treated as essentially a form of treason.
这个人就是斯奇皮奥·阿非利加努斯的老对手，我们在上一集中已经见过他——马尔库斯·波尔基乌斯·加图，是的。
And this is the old enemy of Scipio Africanus, who, again, we met in the last episode, Marcus Porcius Cato Yeah.
到这个时候，他已经刚满八十岁，但依然像以往一样坚定而强硬。
Who by this point, he he's just turned 80, but he is as flinty and as hardcore as ever.
所以，他当年那头红发已经不见了。
So that kind of you know, that ginger hair that he had is gone.
他现在秃得吓人，脸上布满皱纹和松垂的下巴。
He's now terrifyingly bald and got lots of crow feet and jowls.
他是个
He's a
可怕的人。
terrifying man.
我讨厌他。
I hate him.
我觉得加图是个非常令人不快的人。
I find Cato such an unpleasant person.
嗯，我认为有充分的理由讨厌他，随着本集的推进，我们会看到原因。
Well, I think there are good reasons for hating him as we will see as this episode progresses.
所以加图被派往迦太基。
So Cato was sent he goes to Carthage.
我的意思是，偏偏是他去了迦太基，公元前152年，去调查迦太基人和……
I mean, of all people to go, he goes to Carthage in one five two, doesn't he, to investigate yet another spat between the Carthaginians and
努米底亚人，马西尼萨。
the Numidians, Massenisa.
到这个时候，马西尼萨也已经非常年迈了。
Massenisa, by this point, is also very old.
这一点应该直接说出来。
It should just be said.
当加图到达迦太基时，他对自己所看到的一切感到震惊。
And when Cato gets to Carthage, he is horrified by what he sees.
因为，基本上，他原本以为迦太基人会像狗一样生活在臭水沟里，城市一片废墟。
Because, basically, he had assumed that the Carthaginians would be living like dogs in the gutter, their city in ruins.
但事实上，公平地说，迦太基人已经重新站了起来，城市又恢复得相当不错。
But, actually, the Carthaginians, fair play to them, they've dragged themselves back upright, and the city is actually doing quite well again.
而加图并不喜欢
And Cato doesn't like
这一切。
this at all.
他们没有帝国需要管理。
They don't have an empire to run.
他们也没有战争要打。
They don't have wars to fight.
因此，迦太基人能够将全部精力集中在致富上。
And so the Carthaginians have been able to focus all their their energies on getting rich.
所以，再举个类似的例子，这有点像二战后的西德。
So, again, I mean, to pursue another analogy, it's a bit like West Germany after the Second World War.
是的。
Right.
他们不被允许拥有军队或其他军事力量。
You they're not allowed to have an army or anything.
所以他们可以专心致志地发明电视机之类的东西。
So they can just focus on kind of inventing televisions and stuff.
这个迦太基和波恩的类比。
That old Carthage Bon parallel.
所以
So
迦太基人实际上过得非常好。
the Carthaginians are actually doing very well.
尽管罗马人试图遏制其经济，但迦太基的经济依然蓬勃发展。
And despite the attempts of the Romans to kneecap its economy, the economy is booming.
他们拥有广阔的内陆腹地。
They have this hinterland.
纳米比亚人或许在蚕食一部分领土，但迦太基仍控制着大部分地区。
The Namibians may be snipping bits off, but Carthage still controls most of it.
这片土地非常肥沃，资源极其丰富。
It's very fertile, very rich.
迦太基拥有巨大的粮仓。
Carthage has massive grain silos.
它本质上已成为西地中海的粮仓，这一角色将贯穿罗马帝国此后的历史。
It's essentially become the breadbasket of the Western Mediterranean, which is a role that it will play throughout the history, subsequent history of the Roman Empire.
他们升级了港口，并建有一个可停泊170艘船只的内港船坞。
They have upgraded their harbors, and they have this inner dockyard which has berths for a 170 ships.
加图显然对这一切充满疑虑。
And Cato is obviously very suspicious of this.
他们为什么需要170个船坞？
Why do they need berths for a 170 ships?
他还注意到仓库里堆满了大量的木材。
And he also notices storehouses in which there are piled great mounds of timber.
于是他想，这些木材是用来建造商船的，还是迦太基人打算重新启用一支舰队？
And so he's thinking, you know, is this timber for the construction of merchant shipping, or are the Carthaginians planning to reactivate a war fleet?
而以卡托的性格，他显然往最坏的方向想了。
And Cato being Cato, he obviously assumes the worst.
他返回罗马，坚信迦太基人正在准备复仇。
And he returns to Rome convinced that the Carthaginians are preparing for vengeance.
他站在元老院前，抖开了托加袍的褶皱。
And he stands before the senate, and he shakes out the folds of his toga.
从他的托加袍中，掉出了一颗无花果。
And from his toga, there drops a fig.
卡托弯下腰去。
Kato bends down.
他高高举起它，邀请其他元老院议员欣赏。
He holds it up, and he invites his fellow senators to admire it.
它非常饱满。
It's very plump.
它非常美丽。
It's very beautiful.
显然它还非常新鲜。
It's clearly still very fresh.
加图随后揭示，这颗无花果来自迦太基，正如他指出的，距离罗马仅三天航程。
Acaito then reveals that this fig had come from Carthage, as he points out, a mere three day sail from Rome.
他的信息有两层含义。
And his message is twofold.
首先，迦太基已重新崛起为一个强国。
Firstly, Carthage is back as a great power.
是的。
Yeah.
但其次，假如发动第三次布匿战争，一场针对迦太基的灭绝性战争，那么目前由迦太基统治的北非所有土地都将归罗马所有。
But secondly, suppose a third Punic war were to be launched, a war of annihilation against Carthage, then all those lands in North Africa currently ruled by Carthage would become Rome's.
因此，从那时起，每当加图在元老院起身发言时，他都会以同样的方式结束每一场演讲，不是吗？
And so from that point onwards, whenever Cato stands up in the senate and he gives a speech, he ends every speech the same way, doesn't he?
他会做出同样紧迫而有力的宣告。
He makes the same urgent sort of resounding pronouncement.
更重要的是，我想他的听众一定觉得非常无聊，因为他每次都重复同样的话。
What is more I mean, it must have been extremely boring for his listeners that he says the same thing every time.
不管怎样，他说，更重要的是？
Anyway, he says, what is more?
我认为迦太基必须被毁灭。
I think that Carthage must be destroyed.
我的意思是，多米尼克，你说他的听众一定觉得无聊。
I mean, Dominic, you say it must be boring for his listeners.
我完全不这么认为。
I don't think so at all.
他的演讲并不一定都是关于迦太基的。
His speeches are not necessarily about Carthage.
是的。
Yeah.
但他总是会做出这个评论。
But he always makes this comment.
所以当你在听的时候，你会不自觉地等着听这句话。
So you're listening to it, and you're kind of waiting for it.
他又要怎么把迦太基扯进来呢？
How's he gonna get Carthage in again?
他会随意地提上一句。
He'll just mention it willy nilly.
但这就像一种反复的节奏，不是吗？
But it is a kind of drumbeat, isn't it?
而罗马人最喜欢的东西之一，就是战争的鼓点。
And if there's one thing the Romans love, it's a drumbeat of war.
所以我认为他本质上是在煽动战争狂热。
So I think he is essentially kind of, you know, provoking a war fever.
而且他在每场演讲结尾所做的这种陈述——我认为‘迦太基必须被毁灭’这句话被简化了。
And this kind of statement that he's making at the end of every speech, what is more, I think that Carthage must be destroyed, abbreviated.
它已经成为所有拉丁格言中最臭名昭著的一句。
It's become one of the most notorious of all Latin aphorisms.
迦太基必须被毁灭。
Carthage must be destroyed.
因此，最终对决和迦太基的毁灭已经蓄势待发。
So the scene is set for the final confrontation and the annihilation of Carthage.
广告后回来听这个非常悲伤的故事。
Come back after the break for this very sad story.
欢迎回到《历史其余部分》。
Welcome back to The Rest is History.
这一年是公元前152年。
The year is a hundred and fifty two BC.
卡托，这位罗马政坛上脾气古怪、郁郁寡欢的老者，尽管人人都钦佩他——或者至少很多人钦佩他那种共和主义的简朴作风和刻意表演的清教徒式道德——如今却在呼吁彻底毁灭迦太基。
And Cato, this crabby, miserable old man of Roman politics who everybody admires or at least lots of people admire for his sort of republican austerity and his ostentatious performative puritanical morality, he is now calling for the total destruction of Carthage.
汤姆，你笔记里写了‘种族灭绝’这个词。
Tom, you've got the word genocide in the notes.
大概他并不是在呼吁灭绝每一个迦太基人吧？
Presumably, he's not calling for the extermination of every last Carthaginian.
他针对的是城市，而不是人民，还是我理解错了？
It's the city rather than the people, or have I got that wrong?
我认为，当你说到摧毁一座城市时，你实际上就是在说摧毁一个民族。
I think if you're saying destroy a city, you are effectively saying destroy a people.
彻底摧毁一个民族的母城，本质上就是摧毁这个民族。
To destroy the mother city of a people effectively is to destroy a people.
所以我认为，虽然这有点时代错置，但其中确实包含着这种意味。
So I I think it's I mean, it's anachronistic, but I think there is that element in it.
我认为人们应该意识到正在计划的事情，以及其规模之大。
And I think that people should be aware of what is being planned, the scale of what is being planned.
我的意思是，这太可怕了。
I mean, it is horrific.
一些罗马人也认为这很可怕。
And some of the Romans think it's horrific.
对吧？
Right?
当然。
Absolutely.
罗马元老院里有一些人反对加图。
There are senators in Rome who who oppose Cato.
当然，其中许多人属于西庇阿家族的后裔。
And, of course, many of these belong to the dynasty of Scipio Africanus.
其中一人名叫西庇阿·纳西卡，他创造了一句自己的口号来对抗加图。
And and one of them, a guy called Scipio Nasica, he's coined his own catchphrase to counter Cato's.
他的口号是：迦太基必须被保留。
So his is Carthage must be preserved.
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现在听众可能会好奇，他提出这句口号的动机是什么。
Now listeners may be wondering what's his motivation in, in coming up with this this catchphrase.
是因为他有人道主义情怀，关心人权吗？
Is it because he has a sense of humanity, a concern for human rights?
是因为他内心深处的仁慈吗？
Is it from, you know, the depths of his kindness?
并不是。
It is not.
仁慈与否似乎并不是一个关键因素。
A a concern with being kind does not really seem to have been a factor.
那些反对彻底毁灭迦太基的人，他们的动机是由一位百年后的希腊历史学家记录下来的。
Those who are arguing against a war of annihilation against Carthage, Their motivations were told by a a Greek historian writing a century later.
根本原因在于，罗马需要一个值得尊敬的敌人，因为迦太基这个巨大的威胁就在家门口，能让他们保持警醒。
Fundamentally, is that Rome needs a worthy enemy because having Carthage as this great bogey on their doorstep keeps them honest.
这让他们不敢松懈。
It keeps them on their toes.
而令人担忧的是，如果摧毁了迦太基，罗马人可能会变得堕落和放纵，如果没有外部敌人需要防范，他们最终可能会自相残杀。
And the worry is that if you destroy Carthage, then the Romans may become decadent and self indulgent and may end up kind of turning on themselves if they don't have to guard against an outside enemy.
当然，从某种意义上说，这一切确实发生了。
All of which, of course, in a sense, does happen.
因此，这位希腊历史学家很可能是带着事后诸葛亮的视角在写作。
And so it's more than possible that that Greek historian is writing with the benefit of hindsight.
我的意思是，不一定如此，但确实有可能。
I mean, you know, not necessarily, but possible.
我认为很清楚的是，在当时，罗马元老院中聆听加图鼓吹彻底消灭迦太基的议员们，最主要的焦虑其实是担心违背了他们与迦太基签署的条约，因为这会触怒神明，给他们的城市招来天谴。
And I do think it's clear that at the time, the chief source of anxiety for Romans in the senate listening to Cato push for this war of annihilation is actually that they're worried about breaking the treaty that they'd signed with Carthage because this will then offend the gods and bring down divine anger on the head of their city.
因为罗马人自视为最虔诚的民族，而且确实非常注重法律形式。
Because the Romans, they saw themselves as being the most devout of peoples, and, certainly, they were kind of very legalistic.
所以，即使他们在进攻马其顿国王或扣押希腊权贵时。
So even when they are attacking Macedonian kings or taking Greek bigwigs hostage.
他们也总需要确信自己行为的合法性。
They always needed to feel that they were legally justified in what they were doing.
在他们看来，他们并没有做任何不公正或无端的事情。
They're not, as they see it, doing anything that is unmerited or unprovoked.
他们总是需要感到众神站在他们这一边。
They always have to feel that the gods are on their side.
因此，参议院中许多人认为，关于迦太基，他们需要这样做的理由。
And so this is what large numbers in the senate feel they need with regard to Carthage.
他们不能在没有正当战争理由的情况下攻击迦太基。
They can't attack Carthage without a casus belli.
幸运的是，他们正好有一个现成的理由，那就是马西尼萨。
And fortunately for them, they have one on hand because this is Massinissa.
是的。
Right.
这个家伙一直在与迦太基人发生边境冲突，袭击他们的农田，抢夺他们的橄榄树林之类的。
So this bloke has been constantly having his border skirmishes with the Carthaginians and attacking their farmland and and snatching their, you know, their olive groves or whatever.
但如果你是加图或者罗马主战派的一员，这难道不是绝佳的机会吗？
But if you're Cato or one of the war hawks in Rome, isn't this the perfect opportunity?
他就像乌克兰东部顿涅茨克和卢甘斯克的那些人，弗拉基米尔·普京正是利用他们作为发动乌克兰战争的借口。
He's like the equivalent of the people in Donetsk and Luhansk in Eastern Ukraine who Vladimir Putin used as a pretext basically for his war in Ukraine.
是的。
Yes.
因此，此时已年近九旬的马西尼萨，依然和以往一样贪婪。
And so Massinissa, by now in his late eighties, is as, acquisitive as ever.
因此，他的部下继续对迦太基乡村地区的农场和庄园发动袭击，意图将其据为己有。
And so his men continue to launch attacks on farms and estates in Carthage's rural hinterland with the aim of appropriating them.
而在迦太基，人们如今彻底绝望，认为罗马永远不会约束马西尼萨。
And in Carthage, there is now total despair that Rome will ever reign Massenissa in.
这种绝望催生了一批比上一代更激进的新领导人。
And this despair brings new leaders to power who are much more hawkish than the previous generation.
这些人都在说：你看。
And these are men who are saying, well, look.
我们需要一项更积极的外交政策。
We need a more assertive foreign policy.
我们不能继续这样下去了。
We we, you know, we cannot go on like this.
所以公元前151年，迦太基人无视了他们在公元前201年与罗马签署的条约条款，对马西尼萨发动了战争。
So in one five one, ignoring the prescriptions of the treaty that they had signed with Rome back in 02/2001, the Carthaginians go to war with Massinissa.
他们并没有获得罗马人的许可来做这件事。
They do not have the permission of the Romans to do this.
不幸的是，这对迦太基人来说是一场灾难。
And the result for the Carthaginians, unfortunately, is disaster.
所以马西尼萨现在差不多90岁了，但他仍然骑在马上。
So Massinissa, he's he's he's now basically 90, but he's still in the saddle.
他在一座叫奥拉斯科帕的城镇附近与迦太基军队僵持，并将他们围困在一座山上。
He fights the Carthaginian army to a standstill near a town called Orascopa, and he isolates them on a hill.
他们没有水源，别无选择，只能投降并接受屈辱的条件，其中包括再次支付一笔巨额赔款，这已经够糟了。
They don't have any water, so they have no option but to surrender and submit to humiliating terms, which include, again, a kind of massive indemnity, which is bad enough.
但真正的灾难是，迦太基人现在给了罗马主战派一个明显的借口，因为那里的鹰派现在可以声称迦太基违反了条约义务，因此如果罗马进攻迦太基，众神将会支持他们。
But the real disaster is the open goal, obviously, that the Carthaginians have now given to the war party in Rome because hawks there can now argue that Carthage is in breach of her treaty obligations, and that, therefore, if the Romans attack Carthage, the gods will be backing them.
所以这就是他们所需要的一切。
So that's everything they need.
现在罗马人有了发动进攻的机会。
So now the Romans have their opportunity to launch their strike.
而且，还有经济动机，不是吗？
And what is more, there are financial motives, aren't there?
因为在一月，迦太基人已经支付了他们赔款的最后一批分期款项。
Because in January, the Carthaginians have paid off the very last installments, basically, of their reparations, their their war indemnity.
所以罗马将不会再从迦太基收到任何钱了。
So there's gonna be no more money coming to Rome from Carthage.
如果罗马人想要迦太基的财富，他们就必须亲自去夺取。
If the Romans want the Carthaginian wealth, they have to go and seize it.
所以他们不仅获得了外交上的契机——因为马西尼萨这件事——而且现在罗马那些贪婪的人也有了强烈的经济动机，推动对迦太基开战。
So it's they've both got the kind of the diplomatic opportunity, because this business with Massenisa, but also now there is a very big financial incentive for greedy people in Rome to urge a war with Carthage.
这就像是那些人说的，嗯，怎么说呢。
It's like these people who say well, it's like, I don't know.
萨达姆·侯赛因是个坏人，而且伊拉克有很多石油。
Saddam Hussein is a bad man, and there's a lot of oil in Iraq.
你知道的。
You know?
我们进去吧。
Let's go in.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
因此在一月份，罗马人开始为入侵非洲做动员。
And so in January, the Romans begin to mobilize for an invasion of Africa.
而在迦太基， understandably，这一消息使整个城市陷入恐慌。
And back in Carthage, understandably, the news of this throws the entire city into panic.
因此他们拼命试图安抚罗马人。
And so they desperately try to appease the Romans.
他们首先通过判处在奥拉斯科帕战败的将军死刑来采取行动。
And they do this, first of all, by condemning the general who'd been defeated at Orascopa to death.
对于本系列的常听者来说，得知这位将军的名字当然是哈斯德鲁巴——又一位哈斯德鲁巴——并不会感到意外。
And it will not surprise regular listeners to this series to learn that the name of this general is, of course, Hasdrubal, yet another yet another Hasdrubal.
随后，迦太基人派出使团前往罗马，恳求宽恕。
And then the Carthaginians send an embassy to Rome, basically, to beg for mercy.
当他们抵达时，惊愕地发现这支罗马部队已经启程前往西西里岛，就在迦太基对岸的海上。
And when they arrive there, they're appalled to discover that this Roman task force has already left and is in Sicily, so just across the sea from Carthage.
他们还发现加图状态绝佳。
And they also find Cato on absolutely top form.
于是，他发表了一番极具冲击力的演讲。
So he gives a kind of zinger of a speech.
谁不值得信赖，无法遵守条约？
What people can't be trusted to keep their treaties?
迦太基人。
The Carthaginians.
哪些人是根深蒂固的好战分子，以残忍著称？
What people are inveterate warmongers, notorious for their cruelty?
迦太基人。
The Carthaginians.
哪些人把意大利变成了一片焦土？
What people left Italy a smoldering wasteland?
迦太基人。
The Carthaginians.
所以还在不断强调汉尼拔给意大利带来的毁灭。
So still that harping on all the destruction that Hannibal had brought to Italy.
当迦太基使节恳求说，我们该如何弥补时，
And when the Carthaginian envoys, you know, they beg to know how can we make amends.
我的意思是，我们能做些什么？
I mean, what can we do?
他们得到的回应却极其阴险，如同神谕般：满足罗马人民。
They receive this very menacingly Delphic response by satisfying the Roman people.
但元老院并未说明如何实现这种补偿。
But the senate does not specify how this satisfaction can be obtained.
让我们跳到下一年，十二个月后。
So let's take us to the next year, twelve months on.
罗马人已经登陆北非。
The Romans have landed in North Africa.
他们在迦太基西北约三十英里处建立了基地。
They have established their base camp 30 miles Northwest of Carthage.
迦太基人派出了使节试图与罗马人谈判，接下来发生了什么？
The Carthaginians sent envoys to try and negotiate with the Romans, and what happens next?
嗯，他们抵达了。
Well, they they arrive
到达罗马营地。
at the Roman camp.
当他们靠近时，突然响起一阵震耳欲聋的号角声。
And as they approach, there's this kind of great deafening blast of trumpets.
然后他们进入营地，被带经过一排排整齐列队、鸦雀无声的军团士兵。
And then they enter the camp, and they are led past the massed ranks of the legions who are all drawn drawn up and who are totally silent.
我的意思是，这一定非常可怕。
I mean, it must have been terrifying.
在他们前方，两位执政官坐在高台上，迦太基使节被带到执政官面前。
Ahead of them are the two consuls sat down on a podium, and the Carthaginian envoys are brought before the consuls.
他们开始结结巴巴地试图找借口，但所有这些借口都被驳回了。
And they start stammering, trying to make their excuses, but all these excuses are dismissed.
接着，其中一位执政官卢修斯·马尔基乌斯·森西努斯告知使节们，在迦太基交出城内所有武器、盔甲和战争机械之前，不会再进行任何谈判。
And then one of the consuls, Lucius Marcius Sensorinus, he informs the envoys that there will be no more negotiations until Carthage has handed over all the weapons in the city, all the armor, all the war machines.
于是使节们返回迦太基，不久之后，满载武器和盔甲的马车轰隆隆地驶向罗马营地，随行的还有两千多台投石机。
And so the envoys go back to Carthage, and shortly afterwards, wagon loads of weapons and armor come rumbling up to the Roman camp, and also in their train, over 2,000 catapults.
这些全部被交给了罗马人。
So these are all handed over to the Romans.
然后使节们再次返回，站在执政官面前。
And then the envoys come back, and they stand in front of the consuls again.
现在，最终的条款被宣读了，我来引用一下。
And now at last, the terms are delivered, and I will quote them.
使节们被告知：勇敢地接受罗马元老院的其余命令。
Bear bravely the remaining commands of the Roman senate, the envoys are told.
你们必须撤离城市，并将它交给我们。
You must evacuate your city and surrender it to us.
你们可以自行选择在自己领土内的任何地方定居，但必须距离海岸线至少十英里。
You will be allowed to settle where you please within the limits of your own territory provided that it is at least 10 miles from the sea.
至于我们，我们决心将迦太基彻底夷为平地。
As for us, we are resolved to level Carthage to the ground.
我只是想说，迦太基使节们听到这些时的反应。
I just mean the Carthaginian envoys listening to that.
我的意思是，太可怕了。
I mean, terrifying.
当然，我能想象，他们又能做什么呢？
And, of course, I mean, what can they do?
你可能会觉得，迦太基人根本不可能接受这些条件。
There's no way that the Carthaginians can possibly accept this, you would think.
我的意思是，要强调一下，一个民族是如何与他们的母城紧密相连的。
I mean, to emphasize for people, talked about how how a a people are identified with their mother city.
从某种意义上说，失去母城就是失去自己的身份。
And in a sense, to lose your mother city is to lose your identity.
这座城市，不仅仅关乎历史。
That city, it's not just about the history.
它还关乎神庙、神明，等等一切。
It's also about the temples, the gods, whatever.
你知道，你会失去一切。
You know, you you lose everything.
当然，从经济角度看，如果你不再拥有港口，你就真的失去了谋生的方式。
And, of course, I mean, you know, on the economic sense, if you no longer have a port, you no longer have really have a way of kind of making a living.
所以，正如你所说，迦太基人似乎不可能接受这些条件，事实也确实如此。
So as you say, I mean, it would seem impossible for the Carthaginians to accept these terms, and so it proves.
因为当罗马营地的使节返回迦太基时，城中的民众拒绝接受这些条件，尽管他们知道这样做等于是签下了自己的死亡判决书。
Because when the ambassadors from the Roman camp returned to Carthage, the people of the city refused to accept it, even though they know that in effect, by doing so, they are signing their own death warrant.
任何站出来表示‘我认为我们应该接受这些条件’的人，
And anyone who speaks up saying, actually, I think we should accept these terms.
我的意思是，你知道，我们根本不可能抵挡住罗马人。
I mean, you know, we've we've got no chance of of keeping the Romans at bay.
他们会被暴民私刑处死。
They are lynched.
他们会被人用石头砸死。
They're stoned.
总之就是这样。
Whatever.
因此，人们竭尽全力试图偷运出迦太基的财物，以应对即将降临的浩劫——当然，他们已经交出了投石机、武器和盔甲等一切装备。
And so there is a mass effort to try and and steal Carthage for the the horrors that are come because, of course, they've handed over their catapults, their weapons, their armor, all of that.
那么，他们采取了哪些措施呢？
So, what measures do they take?
城内所有奴隶都被释放，前提是迦太基人仍拥有武器。
All the slaves in the city are freed, to the degree that the Carthaginians still have arms.
这些奴隶被分发了武器。
Arms are given to these slaves.
人们涌向城外的采石场，搬运石块，打算制造更多的投石机。
People rush out to quarries outside the city and haul in stones because they're going to try and make more catapults.
据说，所有的神庙、寺庙和其他公共空间都被改造成工坊，男女不分昼夜地工作，按照固定的时间表轮流吃饭。
We're told all the shrines, the temples, and every other public space was turned into workshops where men and women worked day and night without pause, taking turns to eat according to a fixed schedule.
所以，基本上，就像在整个城市各处的神庙里突然冒出了军火工厂一样。
So, basically, you know, equivalent of munitions factories popping up across the city in in in their temples.
在这些工坊里，人们忙着制造剑、长矛和盾牌。
And in these workshops, of course, people are busy making swords, spears, shields.
城内所有金属制品都被熔化，妇女们捐出自己的头发，用来制作投石机的绳索。
Anything made of metal in the city is being melted down, and women donate their hair so that it can be used as rope for the catapults kind of twine it.
他们的将军哈斯德鲁巴尔曾在奥雷斯科帕战役中战败，当时已被判处死刑，如今被赦免，并重新任命为指挥官。
Hasdrubal, their general who'd lost, the battle at Orascopa, and is still on death row, he's reprieved, and he's given back his old command.
他率领一支临时拼凑的军队，准备对罗马人展开游击战。
And he leads out a makeshift army and prepares for a guerrilla war against the Romans.
这是一场战争。
And it is war.
第三次，罗马与迦太基陷入了一场真正意义上的生死决战。
For the third time, Rome and Carthage are locked in what really is this time a death struggle.
对罗马来说这不是生死决战，但对迦太基而言，这绝对是。
It's not a death struggle for Rome, but it absolutely is for Carthage.
所以这就像一种战争，比如说，我不知道，1939年纳粹入侵波兰时，德国人拥有压倒性的兵力，但同情波兰的盟友却说：哦，他们有如此顽强的斗志，他们为家园而战，人民会奋起反抗，一定能击退入侵者，诸如此类的想法。
So it's the kind of war it's a bit like, I don't know, when the Nazis invaded Poland in 1939, and, you know, they had the Germans had such a preponderance of forces, but allied sympathizers with Poland sort of said, oh, you know, they will have all the pluck, you know, they've got such spirit, they're fighting for their homeland, you know, the people will rise, and they will see off the invaders, all of this kind of thing.
但实际上，这完全是一厢情愿，因为双方力量对比如此悬殊，进攻方不可能不赢。
And actually, that turned out to be complete wishful thinking, because the the balance of forces was such that the attacker could not but win.
而在这个案例中，嗯，其实并不是一场即刻的全面溃败，对吧，
And in this case well, actually, it's not an immediate walkover, is it,
绝非如此。
by any means?
结果，迦太基人坚持的时间比波兰人对抗纳粹时还要长得多，持续了数年。
So the Carthaginians do actually manage to hold out for much longer than the Poles do against the Nazis, as it turns out, for several years.
他们之所以能做到这一点，是因为尽管迦太基人已被骗交出了大量武器，但这座城市仍为围城做好了充分准备。
And they're able to do this because even though the Carthaginians have had to you know, have been tricked into handing over so much of their weaponry, the city is still pretty well prepared for a siege.
因此，城内有三层宏伟的城墙，而这些城墙又由壕沟和土堤加固。
So it has these kind of great triple walls, and these walls in turn are buttressed with ditches and banks.
我之前提到过粮仓。
And I mentioned the grain silos.
所以城内储存了大量粮食，他们还修建了巨大的蓄水池来收集雨水。
So they have a lot of food inside the city, and they've also built huge, cisterns for collecting rainwater.
因此，水源应该不是问题。
So, again, water shouldn't be a problem.
与此同时，罗马人向城市推进时，在一个死水湖旁扎营，而当时正值夏季。
And meanwhile, the Romans, as they advance up to the city, they camp beside, a stagnant lake, and it's summer.
于是，不出所料，他们所有人都开始染上各种可怕的疾病。
And so, predictably, they all start, you know, catching various horrible diseases.
实际上，哈斯德鲁巴尔在正面作战中表现得一塌糊涂。
And, actually, Hasdrubal, who, you know, he'd proved an absolute dud in open combat.
但在游击战方面，他却相当出色。
When it comes to guerrilla warfare, he's actually pretty good.
他成功袭击罗马的补给线，策划突袭行动。
He's very successful at attacking Roman supply lines, masterminding sallies.
因此，整个这一年，从一月开始，围城战持续进行。
And so all the all all that year, January, the siege carries on.
一月，罗马方面继续遭遇挫折。
January, Roman setbacks continue.
他们四处试图清剿迦太基城外的据点，但这两个据点依然坚守不屈。
They are going around trying to mop up Carthaginian strongholds beyond Carthage, but these two are able to hold out.
而且，迦太基人再次从城墙发动突袭，烧毁罗马的攻城器械等。
And, again, Sallies are launched out from the walls, and they burn Roman siege engines and so on.
到了一月，马西尼萨——这位老将，曾经是迦太基的盟友，后来却成为他们最大的敌人——以91岁高龄去世。
And then in January, Massinissa, you know, the old war horse, the great the man who had once been a a Carthaginian ally and then become their great enemy, he dies at the fabulous age of 91.
这或许给迦太基人带来了一丝希望，因为他们长期的死敌已经去世了。
And that might have offered hope to the the Carthaginians perhaps, you know, that this kind of inveterate enemy of theirs has gone.
接着，巴尔干地区传来消息，一名觊觎马其顿王位的冒名者出现了。
And then there comes news from the Balkans that a pretender to the Macedonian throne has emerged.
于是人们想起，马其顿王国曾被划分为四个行政区。
So people remember that the Kingdom Of Macedon had been divided up into these four cantons.
一名冒名者现身，他希望重新统一这些行政区，自立为王。
A pretender has emerged, and he wants to reunite these cantons and make himself king.
他击败了一支罗马军队，并向迦太基人传信，询问是否愿意结盟。
And he defeats a Roman army and sends messages to the Carthaginians saying, will you enter into an alliance?
当然，迦太基人答应了。
And, of course, the Carthaginians say yes.
于是，他们突然有了一个盟友。
So suddenly, they do have an ally.
不过，罗马人并没有因此气馁。
Now the Romans, you know, they're not despondent.
他们仍然完全相信自己会赢。
They're still fully expecting to win.
但我认为，一种警觉感正在逐渐形成。
But I think there's a certain sense of alarm developing.
于是他们开始四处寻找救星，寻找一位有能力挺身而出、证明自己是英雄的人。
And so they start to look around for a savior, someone qualified to step into the breach and prove himself a hero.
当然，实际上只有一个合适的人选。
And there is, of course, really only the one candidate.
所以，很明显，那个人就是我们之前提到过的、非洲努斯的养孙——小西庇阿。
So the obvious person, I guess, the adoptive grandson of Africanus is the person we've already talked about, Scipio Aemilianus.
而且，这不仅仅是因为他拥有正确的血统或出身。
And he it's not just that he has got the right bloodline or the right heredity.
他有实战经验，对吧？
He has experience, doesn't he?
他早已与迦太基人打过仗。
He has already fought the Carthaginians.
他确实有。
He has.
我的意思是，他是一名非常非常出色的士兵。
I mean, he's a very, very good soldier.
他曾作为观察员参与了奥拉萨科帕战役，当时马西尼萨击败了迦太基人。
So he'd been an observer at Orascopa where Massanissa had defeated the Carthaginians.
因此，他近距离见过迦太基总司令哈斯德鲁巴。
And so he had seen Hasdrupal, the Carthaginian commander in chief, up close.
你知道，他了解哈斯德鲁巴的行事风格。
You know, he knew what made him tick.
而在过去两年里，他一直在迦太基城下作战，是唯一一位在此期间赢得声誉的高级军官。
And then for the past two years, he'd been serving before the walls of Carthage itself, where he was basically the only senior officer to have emerged with any credit at all.
我的意思是，他打了一场非常出色的战争。
I mean, he'd he'd had a a very good war.
唯一的缺点是他仍处于三十多岁，而人们会记得，担任执政官的最低年龄是40岁。
The only drawback is that he's still in his thirties, and people will remember that the minimum age to serve as consul is 40.
这一规定曾因西庇阿·阿非利加努斯而被破例，尽管遭到罗马保守派的反对。
That had been waived for Scipio Africanus against the opposition of Roman conservatives.
但民众并不在意。
But the people hadn't cared.
他们强行推动了这一决定。
They'd forced it through.
这次同样的事情再次发生。
And so the same thing happens this time.
民众，引述原文，宣称他是他父亲埃米利乌斯·保卢斯——马其顿征服者——以及西庇阿家族唯一的合格继承人。
The people, and I quote, declared that he was the only worthy successor of his father, Aemilius Paulus, the conqueror of Macedon, and of the Scipios.
于是，元老院意识到公众舆论的力量，或许也因为自身略显绝望，同意豁免这一禁令，说：是的，西庇阿可以竞选执政官，他随后顺利当选。
And so the senate, recognizing the force of public opinion, perhaps, you know, just a little desperate themselves, agree to waive the prohibition and say, yeah, Scipio can run for consul, and he's duly elected.
有趣的是，就连保守派的绝对代言人加图，也认可了西庇阿·埃米利安努斯。
And the intriguing thing is that even the absolute spokesman for conservatism, Cato, even Cato gives Scipio Aemilianus the nod.
我的意思是，他确实是胜任这一职位的不二人选。
I mean, he really is the right man for the job.
所以，我们终于来到了这个故事的最后一章。
So now at last, we come to the final chapter in the story.
因此，迦太基的围城战，布匿战争的终结，以及这座伟大古城本身的覆灭。
So the siege of Carthage, the end of the Punic Wars, and indeed the end of this great ancient city itself.
于是，罗马人将全部希望寄托在西庇阿·埃米利安努斯身上。
So the Romans have put all their hopes in Scipio Aemilianus.
当他于一月以执政官身份抵达非洲时，他具备了前任们所缺乏的活力、魄力和雄心，并且完全不负元老院对他的期望。
And when he arrives in Africa as consul in January, Tom, he has the the vigor and the dynamism and the ambition that his predecessors have lacked, and he more than bears out the hope that the senate had in him.
是的。
Yes.
而且
And
哈斯德鲁巴曾与西庇阿·埃米利安努斯发生过冲突，但非常尊重他的声誉。
Hasdrubal, who has clashed with Scipio Aemilianus before, I mean, he's very respectful of his reputation.
因此，他没有继续打游击战，而是将所有部队撤回迦太基城内，固守待援。
And so he rather than continuing with his guerrilla war, he withdraws all his troops inside Carthage and hunkers down there.
但这恰恰正中西庇阿·埃米利安努斯的下怀，因为现在所有迦太基军队都被困在了这座大城市里。
But this, of course, is only to play into Scipio Aemilianus' hands because now all the Carthaginian forces are trapped inside the great city.
而埃米利安努斯深知，只要他能彻底包围这座城市，完全切断所有粮食补给，最终就能通过饥饿迫使城市投降。
And Aemilianus knows that if he can only invest the city completely, completely surround it, cut off all supplies of food, then he will be able in the long run to starve the city into submission.
因此，他命令士兵们开始在港口入口处修建一道巨大的堤坝，这对迦太基人来说简直是一项不可能完成的工程。
And so he orders his men to start constructing a massive mole across the entrance of the harbor, which to the Carthaginian seems an impossible engineering project.
但西庇阿·埃米利安努斯不仅是一位出色的将领，也是一位卓越的工程师，他成功完成了这项任务。
But Scipio Aemilianus is a a very good engineer as well as a very good soldier and is able to pull it off.
于是，这道堤坝最终被修建完毕。
And so this mole ends up being constructed.
港口的通道被彻底封锁，迦太基再也无法获得任何粮食补给。
Access to the harbor is now blocked off, and there is no possibility of food coming into Carthage.
因此，西庇阿·埃米利安努斯知道，他现在可以安心等待了。
And so Scipio Aemilianus knows that he can now sit back and wait.
随着每一天过去，绞索都会越收越紧。
And with each day that passes, the noose will tighten.
那迦太基人呢？
And what about the Carthaginians?
嗯，这个包围圈正在收紧。
Well, this noose is tightening.
他们在做什么？
What are they doing?
嗯，迦太基一直由元老院统治。
Well, Carthage has always been run by a senate.
从这个意义上说，它一直有着某种文官政府。
In that sense, it's always had a kind of civilian government.
但哈斯德鲁巴认为，迦太基要想生存下去，唯一的办法就是建立军事独裁。
But Hasdrubal, he feels that the only way that Carthage survive is if he institutes a military dictatorship.
于是他就这么做了。
And so this is what he does.
你知道，他背后有所有士兵的支持。
You know, he's got all the soldiers at his back.
没人能阻止他。
There's no one to stop him.
通过这样做，他自然能够征用城内所有的粮食供应，确保自己的士兵吃饱喝足，而其他人却开始挨饿。
And by doing that, of course, he is able to commandeer all the food supplies within the city and ensure that his men are well fed even while everyone else starts to starve.
那些无法获得食物的人的尸体开始遍布这座垂死之城的街道。
And the corpses of those who no longer have access to food begin to litter the streets of the dying city.
哈斯德鲁巴尔担心，绝大多数民众经历的饥饿可能会引发社会动荡，迫使他与罗马人展开谈判，而他并不准备这么做。
And Hasdrupal is is anxious that this experience of starvation on the part of the the vast majority of the public may result in civic unrest, may lead to pressure on him to open negotiations with the Romans, and he's not prepared to do that.
于是，他抓来在战斗中被俘的罗马军团士兵，把他们带到迦太基的城墙上。
So he takes, Roman legionaries who've been captured in the fighting, and he leads them up onto the walls of Carthage.
在那里，下方的罗马人可以清楚地看到自己的战友正遭受折磨致死，尸体被扔进罗马军队的阵地。
And there, where the Romans far below can see what is being done to their comrades, they're tortured to death, and their bodies are dumped, into the Roman positions.
这样一来，自然就彻底断绝了谈判的可能。
So that, of course, makes sure that there will be no negotiations.
西庇阿·埃米利安努斯正等待着城内士气跌至谷底，人们开始因疾病大规模死亡。
And Scipio Aemilianus is waiting for the morale in the city to hit rock bottom for people really to start dying for disease to spread.
当那一刻到来时，他发动进攻，彻底出乎迦太基人的意料。
And then when that moment comes, he strikes, and he takes the Carthaginians completely by surprise.
他的进攻并不是从城墙上发起的。
And his assault, it's not over the walls.
而是通过防波堤从港口发起的。
It's through the harbors from the mole.
这条防波堤就像一个登陆平台。
That Mole is a kind of launch pad.
因此，罗马人得以实施两栖攻击。
And so the Romans are able to it's an amphibious attack.
他们穿过外港，进入迦太基人刚刚修建的内港。
They go through the outer harbor into that inner harbor that the Carthaginians have just been built.
从那里，可以轻松抵达城市中心的大市场。
And from there, there is easy access to the great marketplace in the center of the city.
一旦罗马人突破了港口防御，他们便涌入这个市场，并将其作为即将展开的城市洗劫行动的基地。
And once the Romans have breached the harbor defenses, they pour into this marketplace, and they essentially make it the base for the sack of the city that is now going to happen.
首先，他们将这座矗立着的宏伟神庙中的所有黄金掠夺一空，堆叠起来，然后开始 literally 一块砖一块砖地拆解整座城市。
First of all, they strip this great temple that is standing there of all its gold, pile that gold up, and then they start literally disassembling the city brick by brick.
因此，他们面对的是从广场辐射出去的极其狭窄的街道，以及高达六层的住宅街区。
So what they do, there are, kind of very tight narrow streets fanning off from the marketplace, and there are blocks of housing that reach up six stories.
而这些只是广场区域。
And these are but the marketplace.
紧邻广场的房屋，士兵们逐一进入。
And the houses that are adjacent to the marketplace, soldiers go in.
他们清除了每栋房屋每一层的所有敌对抵抗力量。
They clear, all the opposition from all the enemy from the each of the stories of these houses.
一旦房屋被清理干净，他们便将木板抬到顶层，横跨在下方狭窄的街道上。
And then once the houses have been cleared, they take planks up to the top story, and they lay them out across the kind of narrow streets below.
从那里，他们可以进入下一个住宅街区，并重复同样的过程。
And from there, they can pass into the next block of houses, and they do the same.
这个过程就这样不断持续下去。
And the process just goes on and on and on.
一旦房屋被清空，士兵们从一个街区转移到下一个街区，他们就会放火烧掉这些房屋。
And once the houses have been cleared and the soldiers have gone from the one block to the next, they then set the houses on fire.
你看到的是砖石结构。
And you get masonry.
你看到的是梁木。
You get beams.
你看到的是阵亡者的尸体。
You get the corpses of the slain.
你看到的是可能躲藏在这些房屋里的老人、妇女和儿童。
You get old men, women, children who might have taken shelter inside these houses.
他们全部坠落进街道，我们对当时的情景有令人毛骨悚然的描述。
They all come crashing down into the streets, And we have a horrific description of what this was like.
一旦所有废墟都坠落到街道上，就有负责清理街道的人员前来，他们的任务是让街道恢复通行，以便士兵们继续前进。
Once all the kind of the debris has fallen into the streets, cleaners came who had been charged with making the streets passable so that the soldiers can continue up the streets.
这些清理人员将死者和生者一并拖入他们挖好的大坑中，像处理砖石和燃烧的木材一样，将他们当作垃圾丢弃。
And these cleaners hauled the dead and the living alike into great pits they had dug, disposing of them as though they were masonry and burning timbers, mere debris.
一些还活着的人被头朝下扔了进去，双腿露在地面外，被遗弃在埋葬处长时间挣扎。
Some of the living were thrown in headfirst so that their legs stuck out of the ground, and they were left to writhe where they had been buried a long time.
这是一种可怕而扭曲的画面。
So a kind of hideous, grotesque image.
你知道这让我想起了什么吗？
Do you know what it reminds me of?
这让我想起了我们在讨论阿兹特克帝国覆灭时提到的特诺奇蒂特兰围城战，西班牙人逐屋作战，摧毁房屋以阻止阿兹特克人将其作为避难所。
It reminds me of the siege of Tenochtitlan that we talked about in the fall of the Aztecs, the Spanish fighting house by house, destroying the houses to stop the Aztecs from using them as kind of refuges.
我的意思是，这非常非常相似，对吧？
I mean, it's very, very similar, isn't it?
这是一场斯大林格勒式的战斗。
It's this Stalingrad style battle.
我的意思是，当然有可能有西班牙人。
I mean, it's possible that there would have been Spaniards Of course.
在那场战争中，有人读过这些详细的记载。
In the in the war who had read these very accounts.
我刚才也在想这个。
I was thinking that.
是的。
Yeah.
这些人中的许多人都受过古典教育。
They had classical education, a lot of these people.
没错。
Yep.
所以他们会知道关于
So they would have known about
这一切。
all this.
迦太基的毁灭是伟大、著名且美丽首都被摧毁的原型。
And and this the destruction of Carthage is the archetype of the destruction of a a great and famous and beautiful capital.
清理过程持续了六天。
And the process of clearance goes on for six days.
到了第七天，幸存下来的大量迦太基人投降了。
And on the seventh day, the vast mass of the Carthaginians who remained alive surrendered.
而如今唯一的抵抗来自哈斯德鲁巴尔和900名罗马逃兵，他们据守在最高处的堡垒——迦太基相当于卫城的地方。
And the only resistance now is from Hasdrubal and 900 Roman deserters who held out on the kind of the topmost fort, the Carthaginian equivalent of an Acropolis.
但最终，他也被逼投降，并被带到西庇阿·埃米利安努斯面前，匍匐在罗马统帅的脚前乞求宽恕。
But in time, he too is brought to surrender, and he's brought before Scipio Aemilianus and grovels before the feet of the Roman commander.
他的妻子，一直与他在一起，对此行为充满鄙视。
And his wife is, who'd been with him, is utterly contemptuous of this.
她拿起一把匕首。
And she takes a dagger.
她割开了他们两个儿子的喉咙，并将儿子们的尸体扔进附近熊熊燃烧的火堆中。
She slits the throats of, their two sons, and she throws the corpses of her sons into a fire that is blazing nearby.
然后，她自己也纵身跳入火海。
And then she hurls herself into the flames as well.
真是典型的狄多。
Very Dido.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，女性在整部剧中似乎只在自杀时才会出现，这有点令人难过。
I mean, it's a bit sad that women tend only to appear in the series when they're killing themselves.
这就是古代的样子。
That's antiquity for you.
对。
Yeah.
那么哈斯德鲁巴尔和那些逃兵后来怎么样了？
So what happens to Hasdrubal, and what happens to the deserters?
哈斯德鲁巴尔被赦免，带到了罗马，在西庇阿·埃米利安努斯的凯旋游行中示众，之后被允许在罗马郊外的一处农庄定居。
So Hasdrubal is spared and taken back to Rome where he walks in Scipio Aemilianus' triumph, and then he's allowed to settle in a a farm outside Rome.
所以他活了下来。
So he survives.
当然，那些罗马逃兵都被残酷地处死了。
The Roman deserters, of course, are put horribly to death.
投降的迦太基人全部被奴役，大约五万人。
The Carthaginians who've surrendered, they are all enslaved, about 50,000 of them.
他们被带了出去。
They're led out.
男人、女人、孩子，全都成了奴隶。
Men, women, children, they all become slaves.
这座城市被系统性地洗劫一空。
The city is systematically stripped of all its treasures.
对迦太基众神的神庙毫无尊重。
No respect is shown the temples of the Carthaginian gods.
它们被彻底摧毁。
They are demolished.
迦太基拥有丰富而崇高的文学传统。
Carthage had a a rich and venerable literary tradition.
所有图书馆都被清空，书籍被赠予努米底亚人，而他们似乎很快就把这些书弄丢了。
All the libraries are emptied and given to the Numidians who promptly seem to have lost them.
罗马人保留了一部共二十八卷的农业论著，并将其翻译成了拉丁文。
The Romans do keep one twenty eight volume treatise on agriculture, which they have translated into Latin.
因为显然他们认为，我们要接管这些土地。
Because, obviously, they're thinking, well, we wanna take over these lands.
好吧。
Alright.
这本手册教人如何让田地繁荣起来。
And this is the guide to how to, you know, how to make the fields flourish.
所以我们保留了它。
So we'll keep that.
但除此之外，所有迦太基文学的财富都消失了。
But otherwise, all the wealth of of Punic literature is gone.
所以我们一无所有。
So we have nothing.
我们没有迦太基人撰写的任何历史记载。
We have no histories written by the Carthaginians.
所以，就像这些故事中经常发生的那样，无论是比利时人在刚果，还是其他情况，是的。
And so as so often, you know, in these stories, whether it's the Belgians in the Congo or whatever Yeah.
或者确实是美国人在美国大平原上的做法，我们只看到了一方的声音。
Or indeed the, you know, the Americans in the Great Plains, we only have one side.
我们只有罗马人的视角。
We only have the Roman side.
是的。
Yeah.
迦太基覆灭的消息传到罗马，元老院随即给西庇阿·埃米利安努斯下达指令，要求将城市残存部分彻底夷为平地，并诅咒任何未来试图在此定居的人。
The news of Carthage's fall is sent to Rome, and the senate then sent back instructions to Scipio Aemilianus that what remained of the city was to be razed to the ground, and that a curse was to be laid on anyone who in the future might try to settle there.
因此，迦太基将被遗弃，任其荒芜。
So Carthage is to be left abandoned to weeds.
但这里有一件惊人的事。
But here's an amazing thing.
他们并没有在废墟上撒盐。
They don't sow the the ruins with salt.
他们没有。
They don't.
大家都以为他们这么做了，
Everyone thinks they did that,
但他们并没有。
and they didn't.
他们没有。
They don't.
这只是《剑桥古代史》在二十世纪二十年代出版时的一种修辞性夸张。
It was a a metaphorical flourish in the Cambridge ancient history, which came out in the nineteen twenties.
而且这说法完全正确。
And it's just Right.
从此迅速流传开来。
Spread like wildfire ever since.
但你知道，没有任何古代文献记载过这种事。
But that that did you know, there's no reference to that happening in any any of the ancient sources at all.
但你知道，他们简直就像在田里撒盐一样，因为这座著名、古老而美丽的城市被毁灭所传递给世界的信号再清楚不过了——罗马人不再容忍任何对手，不容忍任何一丝不顺从的迹象。
But, you know, they might as well have sowed the fields with salt because the signal that the destruction of this very famous, very ancient, very beautiful city, the signal sent to the world was unmistakable that the Romans are no longer prepared to brook any rival, any hint of disobedience.
这个信息在几个月后被进一步强化。
And that is a message that is rammed home a few months later.
所以人们或许还记得，当时马其顿爆发了一场起义，一个自称马其顿王位继承者的人出现了。
So people may remember that that, you know, there's this uprising in Macedon, this pretender to the Macedonian throne has emerged.
我的意思是，他并没有持续多久。
I mean, he does not last long.
他被彻底镇压了。
He gets crushed.
接着希腊也爆发了起义，罗马人同样以极其残酷的方式应对了这场起义。
And there's then a kind of there's an uprising in Greece, and the Romans deal with that very brutally as well.
而对这场起义的镇压最终导致了第二座著名、古老而美丽的城市被毁灭，那就是位于连接伯罗奔尼撒与北希腊地峡上的科林斯的覆灭。
And the suppression of that uprising culminates in the annihilation of a second famous ancient and beautiful city, and that is the destruction of Corinth in Greece, commanding the isthmus that joins the Peloponnese to Northern Greece.
我认为，任何在当年一月身处地中海地区的人，看到迦太基和科林斯在同一年被摧毁，都会清楚地意识到：一个新时代已经开启，罗马的势力如此压倒性，以至于整个地中海地区实际上已没有任何真正的独立可言。
And I think that anyone in the Mediterranean in January contemplating the destruction in the same year of Carthage and of Corinth are well aware that an era has dawned in which Rome is so preponderant that effectively no one in the Mediterranean has any real independence left at all.
你知道吗，一个世纪之内，整个地中海将成为罗马的内湖。
And, you know, within a century, the whole of the Mediterranean will become a Roman lake.
但罗马如何崛起至这种主导地位，这对地中海地区的人们意味着什么，对罗马人自己又意味着什么——这些故事，留待日后再说吧。
But the story of how Rome rises to that position of preponderance, what it means for people in the Mediterranean, and what it means for the Romans themselves, I mean, that is a story for another day.
但我只是想，在我们这个系列的结尾提一下，我们总共做了三个系列，而第一个系列正是从波利比乌斯的回忆录中的一段文字开始的。
But I just thought to end this series we've done three series in all, and we we began the very first series with a passage that derives from Polybius' recollections.
波利比乌斯曾随同小西庇阿前往围城现场，并亲眼目睹了这一切。
Polybius had accompanied Scipio Aemilianus to the siege and had witnessed it for himself.
所以，我就以朗读这段文字来结束吧。
So I'll just finish by reading this passage.
据说，当迦太基城烈焰冲天、毁灭几近完成时，小西庇阿凝视着这座垂死的城市，公然为他的敌人落泪。
It is said that Scipio Aemilianus, as Carthage was going up in flames, its annihilation almost complete, gazed at the city in its death throes, and openly wept for his enemies.
他长久地伫立沉思，思索着每个城市、每个民族、每个帝国，终将如人一般，难逃一死的命运。
He stood wrapped in thought for a long time, pondering how every city, every people, every empire must, as men do, meet with their doom in the end.
特洛伊曾是一座骄傲而繁荣的城市，亚述、米底和波斯的帝国，也曾在各自的时代称雄天下，马其顿更是不久前还辉煌一时，它们都曾遭遇同样的命运。
For such had been the fate of Troy, once a proud and flourishing city, and of the empires of Assyria, Media, and Persia, each in their own day the greatest in the world, and of Macedon, which only recently had blazed with such a brilliance.
然后，无论是有意为之，还是因为他忍不住引用，西庇阿说出了两句荷马的诗句。
And then, either deliberately or because he could not help quoting them, Scipio spoke two lines of Homer.
终有一日，神圣的特洛伊将覆灭，普里阿摩斯与他的子民都将被杀戮。
A day will come when sacred Troy shall perish, and Priam and his people all be slain.
当波利比乌斯以身为西庇阿希腊文学导师的自由身份问他这句话的含义时。
And when Polybius, speaking to him with the freedom he was granted as Scipio's tutor in Greek literature, asked him what he meant by these words.
据说，西庇阿毫不掩饰地将这句话指向了自己的祖国。
It is said that without any attempt to veil his meaning, Scipio made reference to his own country.
当他思索所有凡俗之物终将消亡时，他担忧罗马也终将走向毁灭。
For when he pondered how all things that are mortal must fall, he dreaded how Rome too would fall.
天哪。
Crikey.
非常感谢你，汤姆。
Well, thank you very much, Tom.
这是一记发人深省的警示，也完美地引出了我们《历史其余部分》下一季的内容，该系列将于周一开播。
That's a salutary warning, and indeed, one that sets up beautifully our next series on The Rest is History, which will be starting on Monday.
这个系列讲述的是印加帝国的覆灭，它是世界历史上最长、最大的连续帝国之一，最终在弗朗西斯科·皮萨罗及其征服者手中轰然倒塌。
And that series is the tale of the fall of the Incas, one of the longest and largest contiguous empires in world history that came crashing down at the hands of Francisco Pizarro and his conquistadors.
因此，周一的时候，‘The Rest is History’俱乐部的成员们将一次性获得这个宏大系列的全部六集。
So on Monday, members of the rest is history club will get all six episodes in that mighty series.
如果你想加入他们，想跟随西班牙人一起走进库斯科和卡哈马卡的街道，穿越亚马逊丛林，攀登安第斯山脉的高峰，那就只需前往 therestishistory.com 注册，你将在周一收到全部六集。
And if you want to join them, if you want to plunge into the streets of Cuzco and Cajamarca and the jungles of the Amazon and scale the peaks of the Andes with the Spaniards, then you merely have to head to the restishistory.com to sign up, and you'll get all six episodes on Monday.
但眼下，汤姆，用三个宏大的季度来讲述这段史诗般的故事，真是了不起的成就。
But for now, Tom, what an amazing effort to cover that epic story in three mighty seasons.
非常感谢你，刚才讲的是迦太基。
Thank you so much, and that was Carthage.
再见了，各位。
Bye bye, everybody.
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