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我叫马丁。
My name is Martin.
我是西班牙的士兵，仅此而已。
I'm a soldier of Spain, and that's it.
我一生中大部分时间都在为土地、财宝和十字架而战。
Most of my life, I've spent fighting for land, treasure, the cross.
我价值数百万。
I'm worth millions.
很快，我就要死了，他们会把我埋在这片秘鲁的土地上，这片我年少时帮助毁掉的土地。
Soon, I'll be dead, and they'll bury me out here in Peru, the land I helped ruin as a boy.
这个故事讲的是毁灭、毁灭和黄金。
This story is about ruin, ruin, and gold.
黄金多到你们任何人这辈子都见不到，哪怕你们在会计行工作。
More gold than any of you will ever see, even if you work in a counting house.
我要告诉你们，167个人是如何征服了一个拥有两千四百万人口的帝国的。
I'm gonna tell you how 167 men conquered an empire of 24,000,000.
还有一些从未有人告诉过你的事，足以让你呻吟、哭喊——我在撒谎。
And then things that no one has ever told, things to make you groan and cry out, I'm lying.
也许我确实在撒谎。
And perhaps I am.
秘鲁的空气冰冷而酸涩，如同地窖一般，这里的思维比欧洲更容易扭曲。
The air of Peru is cold and sour like in a vault, and wits turn easier here even than in Europe.
但请容我说明这一点。
But grant me this.
我比任何人都更近距离地见过他，而且我只有爱他的理由。
I saw him closer than anyone and had cause only to love him.
他是我的祭坛，是我心中救赎的光辉形象。
He was my altar, my bright image of salvation.
弗朗西斯科·皮萨罗。
Francisco Pizarro.
而我此生唯一的愿望，就是从未见过他。
And the only wish of my life is that I'd never seen him.
这就是彼得·谢弗的戏剧《太阳的皇家狩猎》的开头。
So that is the beginning of Peter Schafer's play, the royal hunt of the Sun.
这部剧写于1964年，为英国国家剧院创作。
It was written for the National Theatre in 1964.
所以这是一部英文剧，这就是为什么那位西班牙士兵说着英式口音——只是给那些感到疑惑的人一个说明。
So an English play, which is why that that Spanish soldier has an English accent, just for people who are wondering.
《太阳的皇家狩猎》后来被改编成好莱坞电影，罗伯特·肖饰演弗朗西斯科·皮萨罗，或者像西班牙语爱好者们会称的那样，叫他弗朗西斯科。
And The Royal Hunt of the Sun was then made into a Hollywood film, and it starred Robert Shaw as Francisco Pizarro or Dominic as Hispanophiles would call him Francisco.
这首歌非常好。
Very good song.
非常棒。
Very nice.
但在这部剧中，我们还是称他为弗朗西斯科·皮萨罗。
But we're gonna call him Francisco Pizarro in this.
而且，非常不切实际的是，来自《音乐之声》的克里斯托弗·普卢默饰演阿塔瓦尔帕，那位伟大的印加人。
And also very improbably, coming off the sound of music, Christopher Plummer as Atawalpa, the the great Inca.
必须指出的是，他的肤色比在《音乐之声》中深得多，胸部也光滑得多。
And it has to be said that he has a much deeper tan and a much smoother chest than he had in the sound of music.
很难想象，从1969年上映的这部电影之后，他竟又出演了《滑铁卢》中的威灵顿公爵，而
And it is actually quite shocking to think that from that film, which came out in 1969, he would go on to play the duke of Wellington in Waterloo, which
这部影片次年上映。
came out the following year.
这真有点令人难以置信。
So slightly mind boggling.
但听好了。
But listen.
我们并不是在讨论电影，因为这个系列将是我们做过的最史诗、最惊人的系列之一，它讲述的是——可以说，是世界历史上最非凡的事件之一，对吧？
We're not we're not not talking about films because this series is gonna be one of the most epic, one of the most astonishing we've ever done, and it tells the story of I mean, one of the most extraordinary episodes in the whole of world history, isn't it?
是的。
Yes.
这部戏剧所展现的异域风情与戏剧性，确实非常精彩，顺便说一句，这是一部杰出的剧作。
So the exoticism and the drama of the story captured by that play, which is a brilliant play, by the way.
这是关于印加帝国征服的故事，这个帝国从北到南绵延约2500英里。
So this is the story of the conquest of the Empire of the Incas, an empire that stretched from north to south some 2,500 miles.
它是历史上最长的帝国，统治着数百万人口，虽然可能没有剧中宣称的2400万，但依然数量庞大。
It was the longest empire in history, and it ruled millions of people, probably not 24,000,000 as they claim in the play, but still a lot.
而它却被几百名西班牙征服者所征服，实际上还不到200人。
And it's conquered by a few 100 Spanish conquistadors, so fewer than 200 really.
这是一个充满丰富人物的冒险故事。
It's an adventure story with an amazing range of characters.
你提到其中两位： doomed 的皇帝阿塔瓦尔帕，由克里斯托弗·普卢默饰演，以及那位目不识丁的西班牙海盗弗朗西斯科·皮萨罗。
So two of them you've mentioned, the doomed emperor Atahualpa, played by Christopher Plummer, and the man in that reading, the illiterate Spanish buccaneer, Francisco Pizarro.
但这是世界历史中的一个关键转折点。
But it's one of these hinge moments in world history.
它是殖民主义历史中的一个里程碑。
It's a landmark in the story of colonialism.
实际上，我把它视为三部曲的第三部分。
And actually, sort of thought of this as the third part of a trilogy.
所以2023年2月，我们做了一系列关于哥伦布航行至加勒比海的节目。
So in February 2023, did a series about Columbus's voyages to the Caribbean.
那是从第306集开始的。
So that was episode 306 onwards.
他们喜欢我们提供具体编号，汤姆。
They love us to give the numbers, Tom.
然后在2023年，我们制作了一个史诗级系列，当时是我们最长的一部，讲述阿兹特克帝国的覆灭和墨西哥的征服。
Then in the 2023, we did an epic series, at that time our longest, about the fall of the Aztecs, the conquest of Mexico.
那是第385集。
That was number 385
从那之后。
onwards.
我们说过，秘鲁的征服是史上最非凡的故事之一。
We've said that the conquest of Peru is one of the most extraordinary stories ever told.
但疯狂的是，墨西哥的征服也同样惊人。
But, I mean, the mad thing is is that the conquest of Mexico is as well.
是的。
Yeah.
这实际上是续集。
And this is the sequel, really.
我的意思是，这确实是续集，因为所有参与这场冒险的人都心中有着那个模式。
I mean, it really is the sequel because everybody who's taking part in this adventure has that model in their minds.
那我们叫它什么？
So what do call it?
外星接触2？
Alien contact two?
是的。
Yes.
我想是吧。
I guess so.
这是王者归来，接续两塔，讲述阿兹特克帝国的覆灭。
It's the return of the king to the two towers of the fall of the Aztecs.
令人惊叹的是，这部续集和前作一样出色。
And the amazing thing about this is it's one of those sequels that is just as good as the prequel.
当然。
Definitely.
确实是。
It is.
当然。
Definitely.
所以我们现在处于阿兹特克帝国覆灭后的几年。
So we're a few years after the fall of the Aztecs.
我们将讲述皮萨罗在1520年代的首次远征，他于1532年抵达秘鲁，俘虏并杀害了印加皇帝阿塔瓦尔帕，争夺印加首都库斯科的战斗，印加人逃入丛林，以及传说中的维拉卡巴马城的故事——那是最后一批印加人的最后避难所，实际上是个失落的避难所。
We'll be telling the story of Pizarro's first expeditions in the fifteen twenties, his arrival in Peru in 1532, the capture and murder of the Inca emperor Atahualpa, the battle for the Inca capital of Cuzco, the flight of the Incas into the jungle, and the story of the legendary city of Vilcabamba, which was the last refuge, the lost refuge, actually, of the last Incas.
所以这是一个非常非常戏剧化的故事，我们不该再浪费时间，立刻开始吧。
So it's a very, very melodramatic story, we shouldn't waste any more time before plunging right in.
也许，汤姆，我们应该从我们的主角说起。
Maybe, Tom, we should start with our protagonist.
所以，马丁——你为他配音得如此出色——在那段引言中谈论的就是这个人。
So that's the man that Martin, who you voiced so splendidly, is talking about in that introduction.
这位就是改变了数百万人命运的征服者，弗朗西斯科·皮萨罗。
And this is the conquistador who changed the lives of millions of people, Francisco Pizarro.
弗朗西斯科。
Francisco.
是的。
Yeah.
和阿兹特克系列一样，我们将通过使用西班牙不同地区的多种口音，来反映新统一的西班牙的语言多样性。
And we will, as in the Aztec series, we will be trying to reflect the linguistic diversity of the newly united Spain by doing a huge range of Spanish accents from different regions.
以及不同的发音。
And pronunciations.
我们不会保持内部一致性，但要提醒我们的美国听众，我们不会用你们那种奇怪的方式发音。
There'll be no internal consistency, but a word of warning for our American listeners, we will not be pronouncing them in the strange way that you do.
所以你们只能接受了。
So you just have to suck that up.
对。
Right.
所以皮萨罗，是英雄还是反派，由听众来评判。
So Pizarro, hero, villain, it's for the listeners to decide.
他大约出生于1478年，地点是埃斯特雷马杜拉的特鲁希略，那是西班牙的西部边陲之地。
He's born in 1478 or so in a place called Trujillo in Extremadura, which is the kind of wild West of Spain.
那里有很多白鹳。
Has a lot of storks.
是的。
Yes.
没错。
Exactly.
还有很多城堡。
A lot of castles.
那里阳光炙烤，一片苍黄。
It's sun bleached.
这是一个非常贫穷的国家，暴力频发，强盗横行。
It's a very poor country, very violent, bandits.
这不就是意大利式西部片吗？
Spaghetti Western, isn't it?
这是意大利式西部片的典型地区。
Spaghetti Western territory.
是的。
Yes.
这个地方基本上只要你希望成功就会离开，因此许多征服者，比如安娜·科尔特斯和最著名的弗朗西斯科·皮萨罗，都来自埃斯特雷马杜拉。
It's kind of place that basically you leave if you want to be successful, which is why so many of the conquistadors, Ana Cortes and Francisco Pizarro most famously came from Extremadura.
你可以离开，因为这片土地孕育了坚韧的男人。
And you can leave because it is a land that breeds tough men.
所以弗朗西斯科是步兵军官的私生子，这位军官属于小贵族，而他的母亲是一名与这位步兵军官有过私情的女仆。
So Francisco is the illegitimate son of an infantry officer who belonged to the minor nobility, and his mother was a servant girl with whom this infantry officer had had a liaison.
她把他带大了。
She brought him up.
他从不学习，因此与埃尔南·科尔特斯非常不同。
He never learns so he's very unlike Hernan Cortez.
他从未学会读写。
He never learns to read and write.
后来，人们为了取笑他，称他曾经是个养猪的。
Later on, people would say to mock him that he was a former pig herder.
他曾在田野里放猪，这完全合理，因为埃斯特雷马杜拉以火腿闻名，猪很多。
He'd herded pigs in the fields, which is perfectly plausible because there's lots of pigs in Extremadura famous for its ham.
但他似乎很受皮萨罗家族宅邸欢迎，那座宅邸位于镇广场上。
But he seems to have been welcome at the Pizarro family mansion in the town square.
在那里，他很可能第一次遇见了一位远房表亲——一个名叫埃尔南·科尔特斯的年轻男孩，他的母亲是皮萨罗家族的人，出身于皮萨罗家族。
And there, very probably, he first met a distant cousin, a much younger boy called Hernan Cortes, whose mother was a Pizarro, and was from the Pizarro clan.
在十五世纪九十年代末，当他十几岁时，可能随父亲前往意大利参战。
In the late fourteen nineties, when he was in his teens, he may have gone with his father to fight in the wars in Italy.
无法确定。
Can't be sure.
但如果他去了，也没待太久。
But if he did, he didn't stay there for long.
因为如果你来自埃斯特雷马杜拉，又想发财，那么在14世纪末，一个更刺激、更赚钱的地方刚刚开放了。
Because if you're from extra Madura, if you're keen to seek your fortune, in the 14, a much more exciting and lucrative place has just opened up.
当皮萨罗14岁那年，也就是1492年，哥伦布首次航行到了新大陆。
When Pizarro was 14 years old in 1492, Columbus first sailed to the new world.
当他17岁时，也就是1495年，西班牙君主费迪南和伊莎贝拉基本废除了哥伦布的垄断权，向任何愿意与他们分享利润的西班牙人开放了印度群岛。
When he is 17 years old, so in 1495, the Spanish monarchs Ferdinand and Isabella basically scrap Columbus' monopoly and open up the Indies to any Spaniard who will pay them a share of the profits.
于是，这场所谓的淘金热就此展开。
So this is now now the kind of gold rush, as it were, is on.
到十五世纪末，数百名来自皮萨罗这样背景的西班牙人正在伊斯帕尼奥拉岛、古巴及其他加勒比岛屿上寻求财富。
By the end of the fifteenth century, hundreds of Spaniards, people from Pizarro's kind of background, are seeking their fortune on Hispaniola and in Cuba and on the other Caribbean islands.
而皮萨罗就是其中之一。
And Pizarro is one of them.
他实际上比科尔特斯更早前往那里。
He actually went before Cortes did.
他于1502年登陆伊斯帕尼奥拉岛，并成为一名士兵。
He landed on Hispaniola in fifteen o two, and he became a soldier.
他因敢于做必要之事而声名鹊起。
And he made a name for himself as a man who will do what needs to be done.
而所谓做必要之事，其实就是屠杀当地土著塔伊诺人。
And, basically, doing what needs to be done is massacring the local people, the Tainos.
我想补充一个有趣的细节：接下来将发生大量屠杀。
I mean, just to add a kind of interesting detail on that, that there's gonna be a lot of massacring coming.
但与他一同前往伊斯帕尼奥拉岛远征的，还有巴托洛梅·德·拉斯卡萨斯。
But a person who sailed with him on that expedition to Hispaniola was Bartolome de las Casas.
是的。
Oh, yeah.
这位人物后来将成为美洲原住民权利的伟大代言人。
The man who, in due course, will become the great spokesman of the rights of the the the native peoples in America.
这种张力将在十六世纪西班牙在新世界的整个历史进程中持续存在，我们不应忘记这一点。
And that is going to be an enduring tension throughout the course of Spanish history in the New World in the sixteenth century, which we should not forget about.
我认为，就像阿兹特克系列一样，如果你只是把西班牙人看作是血淋淋、贪婪的，那并不完全正确。
I think as with the Aztec series, if you just think of the Spanish as blood soaked, greedy, that's not quite right.
他们一直在争论该怎么做，但这也是本系列以及前一个系列的一个重要主题。
They were they were always arguing about what to do, but also they're a huge theme of this series as it was in the previous one.
他们非常注重法律。
They're very legalistic.
他们总是争论自己行为的法律后果，而且总是带着公证人之类的人同行。
They're always arguing about the sort of legal ramifications of what they're doing, and they're always traveling with notaries and stuff.
还有这种疯狂的做法：他们必须宣读一份声明，邀请美洲原住民皈依基督教并臣服于西班牙国王，而这对听的人来说显然是胡言乱语。
And this whole kind of mad thing where they have to read out a statement inviting the native Americans to become Christians and submit to the Spanish king, which obviously is gibberish to the people who are listening to it.
但这会成为一个持续的主题，对吧？
But that is gonna be an ongoing theme, isn't it?
征服者经历中的一个重大主题是，许多人——这是印刷书籍的时代——抵达新世界时脑子里充满了骑士幻想。
Now a big theme of the conquistadors experience was that so many of them, this is the age of printed books, so many of them arrive in the new world with their heads full of chivalric fantasies.
他们期待着与怪物战斗、拯救少女，并对冒险充满期待。
They're expecting to fight monsters and rescue maidens, and they're very excited at the thought of adventure.
皮萨罗当然不同。
Pizarro, of course, is different.
他可能听说过这些事，但他从未读过一本，也永远不会读，因为他仍然不识字也不会写字。
He may know of such things, but he has never read one, and he never will, because he still can't read and write.
实际上，一些历史学家，甚至一些后来对他极为苛刻的西班牙编年史家，都将他视为一个文盲恶棍。
And actually, some historians, and indeed some Spanish chroniclers who later very harsh about him, treat him as an illiterate thug.
我觉得这种说法有点过分了。
I think that's a little bit harsh.
我认为他比科尔特斯更直率。
I think he's a much more straightforward man than Cortez.
科尔特斯不是非常狡猾吗？
Cortez was very feline, wasn't he?
他非常狡诈。
He was vulpine.
是的。
Yeah.
他非常马基雅维利式。
He was very Machiavell.
是的。
Yeah.
皮萨罗不是马基雅维利式的人。
Pizarro is not a Machiavell.
他是个强者。
He's a he's a strong man.
他是个大块头。
He's a big bloke.
他非常坚韧。
He's very tough.
大家都说他胆大包天。
Everyone says he's daring.
他比科尔特斯更保守，一生都穿着黑色、朴素的黑白服饰。
He's more conservative than Cortez, so he wears black and austere kind of black and white costume which he wears all his life.
就像腓力二世一样。
Like Philip the second.
是的。
Yeah.
他的娱乐方式很简单，比如玩保龄球之类的球类游戏。
His pleasures are simple, playing bowls, kind of ball games.
你
Do you
你觉得把他描绘成一个文盲暴徒的形象，是否反映了编年史家因他不识字而鄙视他的阶级偏见？
think the the kind of sense of him as an illiterate thug is reflecting class bias then on the part of chroniclers who despise him for his illiteracy?
是的。
Yes.
有一点。
A little bit.
有一点。
A little bit.
而且当时争斗频发，一旦人们与皮萨罗闹翻，就会说：‘你是个前猪倌。’
And there's so much feuding that once people have fallen out with Pizarro, they say, oh, you're a former pig herder.
你连字都不认识。
You can't even read.
你只是一个打手。
You're just a bruiser.
所有这些指控。
All of this.
但实际上，当时他的部下普遍认为他为人相当随和。
But actually at the time, his men generally saw him as quite an easygoing.
我的意思是，泰诺人不这么看。
I mean, the Tainus didn't.
但他的部下觉得他是个随和的人。
But his men saw him as an easygoing kind of chap.
关于对印加帝国的征服，许多征服者都写了回忆录，记录他们在秘鲁的经历。
So one of the things about the conquest of the Incas, a lot of the conquistadors wrote memoirs about their time in Peru.
当然，这些回忆录可能经过虚构或扭曲，但它们提供了关于当时发生之事的非常有趣的见解。
And of course, those memoirs may be fictionalized or may be distorted, but they're really interesting kind of insights into what went on.
我的意思是，你有大量相互印证的记载，你可以推测。
And I mean, you have a kind of critical mass of accounts, You guess.
我的意思是，它们不可能全都是编造的，对吧？
I mean, they can't all just be made up, right?
是的。
No.
一位西班牙编年史家和一份回忆录称，他是个没有虚荣心或傲慢态度的好伙伴。
So one Spanish chronicler and one memoir said he was a good companion without any vanity or pomposity.
一位后来的编年史家，实际上是印加人与西班牙人的混血儿，名叫加尔西拉索，说他天性仁慈温和，从不说任何人一句重话。
A later chronicler, who was actually half Inca, called Garthilazo, said he was kindly and gentle by nature and never said a hard word of anyone.
我的意思是，皮萨罗究竟有多仁慈温和，我们将会发现。
I mean, how kindly and gentle Pizarro was, we shall discover.
他是一位来自西班牙一个非常暴力地区的士兵的儿子。
He is a soldier's son from a very violent part of Spain.
这是一场极其暴力的事业，而皮萨罗，正如我们将发现的那样，会不择手段，为了登上顶峰，他不惜杀死任何需要杀死的人。
It is a very violent business, and Pizarro, as we will find out, will do whatever it takes, and he will kill whomever he needs to kill in order to get out on top.
这就是你电影中的经典台词。
There is your shout line for the film.
他会不惜杀死任何人，只为脱颖而出。
He will kill whoever he must to come out on top.
好的。
Okay.
哇。
Wow.
我的意思是，我现在明白了。
That that's yeah.
我的天，我现在能想象出来了。
I mean, I can see it now.
他是由罗伯特·肖扮演的吗？
Who is he played by Robert Shaw?
我的意思是，我喜欢罗伯特·肖这位演员。
I mean, I like Robert Shaw as an actor.
所以在接下来的二十年左右，他在加勒比海地区活动。
So for the next twenty years or so, he's in The Caribbean.
他是一个相当默默无闻的人物。
He's a pretty obscure figure.
所以我们在哥伦布和阿兹特克系列中谈过征服者以及他们运作的征服链条。
So we talked in the Columbus and Aztec series about the conquistadors and how they operated, these chains of conquest.
他们基本上是由一群相互竞争的、类似冒险家和亡命之徒组成的网络，在加勒比海诸岛之间逐岛推进，逐渐逼近美洲大陆。
They would basically have rival networks of entrepreneurial kind of freebooters and adventurers and whatnot who would be engaged in island hopping across the Caribbean, getting closer and closer to the American Mainland.
而所有这些网络和行动中最著名的，无疑是科尔特斯的，他从古巴出发前往墨西哥，再从那里进入中美洲。
And obviously the most celebrated of all these networks, of all these operations, is Cortez's, when Cortez went from Cuba to Mexico, and then from there into Central America.
皮萨罗加入了一家与他表亲不同的公司，这家公司活动范围更靠南。
Pizarro joins a different company from his cousins, a company operating much further south.
他们基本上是在中美洲和巴拿马的丛林中艰难开路。
And they're basically hacking their way through the jungles of Central America and Panama and stuff.
这与科尔特斯所发现的辉煌文明相比有所欠缺。
Which is lacking in the kind of splendid civilizations that Cortez finds.
所以，似乎多少有点运气成分，不是吗？
So there is a slight sense that there's kind of a bit of luck, isn't there?
完全正确。
Completely.
就像你的风险投资家投资科技公司一样，有些会成功，有些则不会。
It's like your venture capitalists and you're investing in tech firms, and some of them will pay off and some of them won't.
而皮萨罗的这次行动并没有成功。
And Pizarro's has not really paid off.
尽管如此，他所属的团队是第一批亲眼见到太平洋的欧洲人。
That said, he's part of the group that become the first Europeans to lay eyes upon the Pacific.
是的，不像约翰·济慈所说的那样是‘英勇的科尔特斯’。
Yeah, so not Stout Cortez, as John Keats said.
搞错了。
Got it wrong.
不，是巴尔博亚。
No, it's Balboa.
瓦斯科·努涅斯·德·巴尔博亚，他领导了这次行动。
Vasco Nunez de Balboa, who leads that operation.
这是一个绝佳的例子，说明了征服者们的生活方式。
And here's a very good example of how the Conquistadors' lives work.
当他们眺望太平洋的水域时，皮萨罗就站在他身边；六年之后，正是皮萨罗逮捕了巴尔博亚，并在巴拿马将他处决，因为征服者之间永无休止的内斗总是撕裂着他们。
Pizarro is standing with him when they look out on the waters of the Pacific, and six years later, it is Pizarro who arrests Balboa and brings him for execution in Panama because of the endemic feuding that is always tearing the conquistadors apart.
所以他们基本上总是担心，你知道，你可能会和某人结盟，一起进行一次惊人的远征，冒着生命危险。
So they're basically always worried that, you know, you can team up with somebody and go on some amazing expedition and risk your life and whatnot.
但三年后，那个人却会从背后捅你一刀，抢走你的钱。
And three years later, that person will sink a knife into your back and steal your money.
或者你会卷入西班牙长达二十年的诉讼之中。
Or you'll be involved in twenty years worth of lawsuits in Spain.
或者你会在丛林中死于某种可怕的疾病。
Or you'll die of some hideous disease in a jungle.
这些事情都会在这部系列剧中发生。
All of these things will happen in this series.
所以，如果我们快进到1520年代初，皮萨罗当时已年过四十，定居在巴拿马城这个繁荣小镇。
So if we fast forward now to the beginning of the fifteen twenties, Pizarro, who's now in his early forties, has settled in the boom town of Panama City.
巴拿马城虽然繁荣，但氛围相当粗犷。
So Panama City is booming, but it's a kind of pretty rough.
那里是个经常发生酒吧斗殴的地方。
It's a kind of place of pub brawls and stuff.
就像《星球大战》里的酒吧。
Star Wars bar.
没错，就是《星球大战》里的那家酒馆。
The cantina in Star Wars, exactly.
皮萨罗混得相当不错。
Pissarro has done pretty well for himself.
他拥有自己的庄园，称为‘恩康ienda’，附带一批原住民劳工，这些劳工几乎就是奴隶。
He has his own estate, which is called an encomenda, which comes with a grant of indigenous laborers, who basically, you know, close to slave laborers as you can get, really.
但皮萨罗感到不安，历史学家们一直在琢磨他为何如此不安。
But Pissarro is restless, and the puzzle for historians is working out why he's so restless.
因为在这个年纪，四十出头的时候，大多数征服者都会说：够了，就这样了。
Because at this age, in your early forties, most conquistadors say, that's it now.
我再也不想跋涉丛林，被蚂蟥叮咬了。
I'm not trudging through jungles with loads of leeches again.
我已经受够了。
I've had enough.
我赚到一点钱了。
I've made a little bit of money.
是因为他的野心吗？
Is it his pothos?
是的。
Yeah.
就像亚历山大一样。
Like Alexander.
亚历山大大帝式的渴望。
Alexander the Great style yearning.
我的意思是，
I mean,
我想是因为他不识字。
I suppose because he's illiterate.
他没有那种宏大的亚历山大大帝气场。
He doesn't have that kind of massive Alexander the Great vibe.
我认为，实际上，你低估了那种渴望，汤姆。
I think, actually, the pothos, I think you're underrating it, Tom.
皮萨罗的个人品味相当朴素。
Pizarro has quite modest personal tastes.
你知道，他不是一个追求奢华的人。
You know, he's not a man given to luxury.
他也不是一个喜欢炫耀的人。
He's he's not a man given to display.
他看起来相当保守。
He looks quite conservative.
他还没结婚。
He he's not married.
他没有孩子。
He doesn't have children.
所以，他并不是为了后代积累黄金。
So it's not like he's interested in piling up gold for his descendants.
他有一种渴望。
He has a yearning.
是的。
Yeah.
一种成名的渴望
A thirst to make a name
为自己扬名，追求荣耀。
for himself, a thirst for glory.
也许这就是这部电影的副标题。
Maybe that's the the subtitle of the film.
没错。
It is.
在未来七年里，他会进行赌博。
And he will gamble in the next seven years.
他会拿自己的健康、生命——对征服者而言最重要的是金钱——去追逐一个目标，但这就是谜团所在。
His health, his his life, most importantly for a conquistador, or his money, on a pursuit of Well, this is the mystery.
什么？
What?
他究竟觉得自己在追求什么？
What does he really think he's after?
事实上，他自己也不知道。
The truth is, he doesn't know.
1522年，这距离科尔特斯抵达阿兹特克首都特诺奇蒂特兰才过了几年。
In 1522, this is just a couple of years after Cortes had arrived in Tenochtitlan, the capital of the Aztecs.
1522年，在更南边的地方，一位名叫帕斯卡尔·德·安达戈亚的巴斯克人从巴拿马向西南方向航行。
In 1522, further south, a Basque called Pascual De Andagoya had sailed Southwest from Panama.
所以塔比非常焦虑，人们都了解这片地理区域。
So Tabby was very anxious, the people understand the geography.
因为我们并不主要研究地理，但偶尔也会涉足一下。
Because we're not the rest is geography, but we like to dabble in it from time to time.
所以帕斯卡尔·德·安达戈亚从巴拿马向西南方向前进。
So Pascal de Andagoya had gone Southwest from Panama.
这基本上是沿着南美洲北部的太平洋海岸，也就是现在的哥伦比亚。
So that's basically down the Pacific side of the top of South America, what is now Colombia.
他沿着哥伦比亚的海岸线前行。
And he'd gone along the coast of Colombia.
他一去就是很久。
And he was gone for ages.
人们以为他失踪了。
People thought he'd vanished.
然后他回来了，他说，我一直在哥伦比亚的丛林里，那里有人。
And then he returned, and he said, I've been in the jungle in Colombia, and there are people there.
那里没什么东西，但人们说再往南走，有一个叫比鲁的地方。
There's not much there, but people say further south, there is this land called Biru.
他们说比鲁是一个富饶而强大的帝国，可能和墨西哥一样富有。
And Biru, they say, is a rich and powerful empire, maybe as rich as Mexico.
多米尼克，我想问一下，阿兹特克人和印加人之间没有过接触，对吧？
And Dominic, just to ask, there have been no contacts between the Aztecs and the Incas, have there?
而且，那里的地理环境实在是太过险峻、难以穿越。
And the the the the geography is just too impenetrable and impassable.
正如我们接下来会发现的那样，当我们到达
As we will discover when we get
印加帝国时，会发现他们基本上一直生活在与世隔绝的状态中。
to the Incas, they've basically been living in a vacuum.
是的。
Yeah.
因为他们的地理环境被海洋、山脉和丛林等各种障碍所包围。
Because they're geographically bound in by sea and mountains and jungle and all kinds of things.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
所以想象一下，皮萨罗在巴拿马城的酒馆里，周围都是来自异域的人。
So Pizarro in Panama City, imagine him in his cantina surrounded by aliens.
他说：哦，这听起来不错。
He says, oh, I like the sound of this.
这就是他将追逐的梦想。
And this is the dream that he will chase.
因此，在1524年，他与巴拿马城的两位朋友结成了合伙关系。
So he, in the 1524, he forms a partnership with two friends from Panama City.
其中一位是名叫埃尔南多·德·卢克的神父，他涉足商业，并向一位法官借了钱。
One of them is a priest called Hernando de Luque, who dabbles in business and has borrowed some money from a judge.
另一个在本故事中至关重要的人物，贯穿全部六集，是皮萨罗的老战友迭戈·德·阿尔马格罗。
And the other, a very important person in this story, all six episodes, is an old comrade of Pizaros called Diego de Almagro.
他来自新卡斯蒂利亚的乡村地区。
And he's from rural New Castile.
他比皮萨罗年长一些。
He's a little bit older than Pizarro.
他也是私生子。
He's also illegitimate.
他还是个文盲。
He's also illiterate.
不，我不会读。
No, I can't read.
他也是个非常强硬的人。
And he's another very hard man.
人们说他身上布满了战斗留下的疤痕。
People said his body was covered with scars from fighting.
但他比皮萨罗更富有色彩。
But he's literally more colorful than Pizarro.
他穿着非常鲜艳的衣服。
He wears very colorful clothes.
要理解你，因为把这些人都放在他们的心里很重要。
And to read you, because it's important to get all these people in their heads.
一位编年史家说，阿尔马格罗身材矮小，相貌丑陋，但勇气和毅力非凡。
One chronicler said of Almagro, he was a man of short stature with ugly features, but with great courage and endurance.
他为人慷慨，却自负且喜欢吹嘘，有时口无遮拦，滔滔不绝。
He was generous, but was conceited and was given to boasting, letting his tongue run on sometimes without stop.
所以他身材矮小，相貌丑陋，非常勇敢，又爱吹嘘，总是喋喋不休地谈论自己。
So he's short, he's ugly, he's very brave, and he's boastful, and he's always talking about himself.
我的意思是，这部电影简直自己在成形，不是吗？
I mean, this is the film is just writing itself, isn't it?
会有很多演员想演这个角色。
There'd be so many actors who'd want to play that part.
嗯，谈不上友好，因为此时他和皮萨罗是很好的伙伴。
Well, not nice because he and Pizarro at this point are great mates.
而且剧透一下，这种关系不会长久。
And spoiler alert, it will not last.
不会太久。
Not for long.
盗亦有道。
No honor among thieves.
因此，在1524年11月，他们乘坐三艘小船沿着哥伦比亚的太平洋海岸启程。
So so in November 1524, they set off in three small ships down the Pacific Coast Of Colombia.
这是南美洲的西北部。
So this is the top left of South America.
这次航行完全不成功。
And this is not a success at all, this voyage.
天气非常糟糕。
The weather's really bad.
他们登上了岸。
They put ashore.
他们与一些手持长矛、弓箭的村民发生了冲突。
They get into a fight with some villagers who've got spears and bows and arrows.
阿尔马格罗失去了一只眼睛。
Almagro loses an eye.
这太棒了，因为我们现在可以想象他戴着眼罩的样子。
So this is great now because we can picture him with an eye patch.
我不认为他真的戴过眼罩，但为了电影的效果，你说呢？
I don't think he did wear an eye patch, but I think for the purposes of the film What?
所以他只是
So he just
长了一个可怕的、流血的疮吗？
had a horrid kind of bleeding sore?
我想是的。
I think so.
是的。
Yeah.
哦，太好了。
Oh, great.
我认为为了好莱坞的效果，眼罩很重要。
I think for Hollywood purposes, the the eye patch is important.
谁来演他？
Who play him?
乔·佩斯基？
Joe Pesky?
我在想那个演金雳的演员，约翰·莱斯·戴维斯。
I'm thinking the bloke who was Gimli, John Rhys Davis.
一位威尔士人。
A Welshman.
是的。
Yeah.
关于其余部分，还有更多威尔士历史。
More Welsh history on the rest of this.
太多了。
It's too much.
好的。
Okay.
所以要么是甘道夫，要么是乔·佩斯基。
So it's either Gimli or Joe Pesky.
我觉得是甘道夫。
I think Gimli.
我觉得甘道夫就是甘道夫。
I think Gimli was Gimli.
我们还没选好皮萨罗的演员，但可以在剧集过程中继续考虑。
We still haven't cast Pizarro, but we can work on that during the course of the series.
总之，他们回到了巴拿马。
Anyway, they go back to Panama.
皮萨罗毫不气馁。
Pizarro's undeterred.
他筹集了更多资金。
He raises more money.
1526年3月，他和埃尔马格罗再次启程，带着两艘小船，这次航行将成为西班牙历史上最著名的航行之一。
In March 1526, he and El Magro set off again with two small ships, and this voyage will become one of the most celebrated voyages in Spanish history.
他们沿着哥伦比亚海岸向南航行，也就是那种西海岸。
They go south down the coast of Colombia, that sort of Western coast.
当他们到达圣胡安河时，皮萨罗上岸扎营。
And when they get to the San Juan River, Pizarro goes ashore and camps.
阿尔马格罗返回巴拿马寻求增援。
Almagro goes back to Panama to get reinforcements.
他们的船长，也就是负责驾驶船只的那个人，名叫巴托洛梅·鲁伊斯，他说：‘你们做你们的事，我驾船往南稍微探索一下，看看那里有什么。’
And their pilot, so the guy who's basically piloting the ships, who's a guy called Bartolome Ruiz, he says, I'll take the ships on a little bit, scout on south to see what's there while you guys do what you're doing.
鲁伊斯越过赤道后，在地平线上看到了一艘船。
Ruiz crosses the Equator, and then once he's crossed the Equator on the horizon, he sees a ship.
这基本上是一艘木筏。
And it's basically a raft.
这是一艘能远航的木筏。
It's an ocean going raft.
哦，就像科蒂基那样的。
Oh, like the Contiki.
带着棉质的帆。
With cotton sails.
他俘获了那艘船。
And he captures the ship.
很多人跳海逃命，但并不是所有人都这样。
And a lot of it's people sort of jump overboard and stuff to escape him, but not all of them.
他简直不敢相信自己在木筏上发现了什么。
And he can't believe what he finds on this raft.
因为他在给西班牙查理五世的信中描述，木筏上满是金制和银制的装饰品、王冠和头饰、腰带和手镯、镊子和摇铃、串珠、宝石串、镜子、杯子以及其他饮器。
Because as he reports in a letter to Charles the fifth of Spain, it's full of gold and silver ornaments, crowns and diadems, belts and bracelets, tweezers and rattles and strings, and clusters of beads and rubies, mirrors and cups and other drinking vessels.
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镊子。
Tweezers.
镊子。
Tweezers.
镊子和镜子。
Tweezers and mirrors.
是的。
Yeah.
太棒了。
Brilliant.
镊子。
Tweezers.
国王一定会很高兴能得到一些镊子。
The king will be thrilled to have some tweezers.
金色的
Golden
哦，真奇怪，就像那样。
Oh, Pretty odd, like yeah.
鼻毛修剪器。
Nasal hair clippers.
牙线工具。
Dental floss thing.
牙线。
Dental floss.
是的。
Yeah.
不管怎样，船上有很多这些东西。
Anyway, they've got all this stuff on the boat.
船上这些人把这些东西拿去交易，用所有的黄金去换极其稀奇的彩色鱼壳，他们用这些贝壳当筹码。
And these blokes on the boat were taking this to trade, all this gold, to trade unbelievably for brightly colored fish shells, which they would use as counters.
所以这本质上就是货币。
So this is effectively money.
是的。
Yeah.
但这一点告诉鲁伊斯的是，用黄金换取大量贝壳，意味着拥有黄金的人一定非常多，因为他们并不太看重黄金。
But what this tells Ruiz is that, you know, to trade this for a load of shells means that the people with the gold must have an awful lot of it because they don't prize it that highly.
无论如何，对皮萨罗和他的同伴来说，这是个绝佳的消息。
Anyway, for Pizarro and co, this is tremendous news.
这太令人兴奋了，因为这意味着显然存在一个先进的文明，他们甚至在制作金制镊子。
This is so exciting because this means there clearly is an advanced civilization if they're making golden tweezers.
而且他们还有大量的黄金、红宝石之类的东西。
And they've got loads of loads of golden rubies and stuff.
没错。
Exactly.
鲁伊斯留下筏子上的三个人，让他们之后接受翻译训练。
Ruiz keeps three of the blokes in the raft on afterwards to train as interpreters.
实际上，在整个故事中，显然一直都有人在进行翻译。
And actually throughout this whole story, there are clearly gonna be people interpreting the whole time.
我们对他们几乎一无所知。
And we know virtually nothing about them.
而我们唯一知道的一点是，与阿兹特克人的故事不同，西班牙人花了大量时间抱怨他们的翻译毫无用处，一直在误译对方的话。
And the one thing we do know actually is the Spanish, unlike in the story of the Aztecs, the Spanish spends a lot of time complaining that their interpreters are useless, and they're mistranslating what is being said.
因为根本就没有‘melanche’这个东西。
Because there's no equivalent of melanche.
没有melanche，确实没有。
There's no melanche, no.
科尔特斯的女友，由于极其复杂的原因，能说多种语言。
Cortes' girlfriend, who for very complicated reasons, can speak all these various languages.
但在这个故事里，并没有类似的人物，对吧？
But there isn't an equivalent of that in this story, is there?
没有。
No.
确实没有。
There isn't.
只有一些普通人不断被西班牙人搞混，正如我们即将看到的。
There are just generic people who keep getting Spanish themselves get them mixed up, as we shall see.
而且他们的西班牙语确实这么说，事实上，印加人后来也说：天啊，你们的翻译简直毫无用处。
And they but their Spanish do say, and in fact, the Incas later say, God, your interpreters are absolutely useless.
我的意思是，我认为不能怪他们，因为他们必须学习一种全新的语言。
Well, I mean, I don't think you can blame them, because they're having to learn a completely new language.
他们又怎么能确定语言被正确地说出来了呢？
And how can they be sure that the language is properly spoken?
是的，没错。
Yeah, true.
我的意思是，我只是觉得翻译应该做好本职工作，但我的期望很高。
I mean, I just think interpreters should do their job, but I have high expectations.
无论如何，鲁伊斯，这位船长，回到营地，看到皮萨罗和阿尔马格罗从巴拿马赶来了。
Anyway, Ruiz, the pilot, goes back to the camp and he sees Pizarro and Almagro turns up from Panama.
他们都对黄金的消息感到欣喜若狂。
And they're all delighted by the news of the gold.
他是那个威尔士人。
He's the Welsh guy.
阿尔马格罗就是那个戴眼罩的家伙。
Almagro is, yeah, the guy with the eye patch.
阿尔马格罗说：听着，我要带一些黄金回巴拿马。
And Almagro says, look, I'll take some of this gold back to Panama.
我要招募更多人。
I'll get more recruits.
你们干嘛不继续往前走呢？
Why don't you guys keep going?
去看看你们能发现什么。
You know, see what you can find.
于是他们继续前进，并决定在一座名为加略岛的荒岛上会合，该岛大致位于哥伦比亚和厄瓜多尔边界附近。
So they go on and they decide their rendezvous on this deserted island called the Islata De Gallo, which is on the border roughly between Colombia and Ecuador.
我们现在正沿着南美洲西海岸下行。
So we're now going down the West Coast Of South America.
所以皮萨罗和他的同伴们去了这个岛。
So Pizarro and co go to this island.
阿尔马格罗返回巴拿马，把黄金带回去并招募更多人手。
Almagro goes back to Panama to take the gold back and to get more recruits.
当阿尔马格罗回到巴拿马时，巴拿马总督说：这太疯狂了。
When Almagro gets back to Panama, the governor of Panama says, this is mad.
我不会再给你更多人了。
I'm not giving you more people.
这根本就是徒劳无功。
This is a fool's errand.
那红宝石和黄金呢？
What about the rubies and the gold?
是的。
Yeah.
他看到了，但只是觉得这可能只是个偶然。
He sees that, but he just thinks it's maybe a one off.
也许这只是个偶然。
It's maybe a one off.
但还有，你知道的，天气、疟疾。
But also, you know, the weather the weather, the malaria.
你知道，我们在中美洲还有别的事要忙。
You know, we've got stuff going on in Central America that we're busy doing.
我不愿意再把更多人派出去了，好钱不追烂账，说白了就是。
I'm not throwing more men off, know, more men off, good money after bad as it were.
与此同时，皮萨罗和那些人在加略岛这个荒岛上过得非常艰难。
Now meanwhile, Pizarro and the men on this desert islands, the Isla De Gallo, they're having a dreadful time.
他们食物耗尽，只能靠腐烂的贝类为生，蚊子叮得他们生不如死，所有人都得了痢疾，诸如此类的情况。
They run out of food, they're living off like rotten shellfish, mosquitoes are eating them alive, they've all got dysentery, all of this kind of thing.
最终，他们看到有船朝他们驶来，皮萨罗说，太好了。
Eventually they see ships coming towards them, and Pizarro says, oh, brilliant.
这些是增援部队。
These are the reinforcements.
这些是新招募的士兵。
These are the new recruits.
船到了，但船上的人说：不，不。
The ships arrive, and actually, the people on the ship say, no, no.
我们是来接你们回家的。
We've come to take you back home.
你们得回巴拿马。
You're going back to Panama.
皮萨罗心碎了。
Pizarro is gutted.
他愤怒至极。
He's furious.
这是西班牙历史上著名的场景，他拔出了剑。
And this incredibly famous scene in Spanish history, he draws his sword.
他让所有还活着的部下——那些没死于痢疾的人——全部上岸。
He gets all his men onto the beach, the men who haven't died of dysentery.
他就在沙滩上画了一条线。
And he draws a line in the sand of the beach.
然后他发表了一番精彩的演讲。
And he has this fantastic speech.
同志们，朋友们，一边是安逸。
Comrades and friends, on one side lies comfort.
另一边是死亡、艰辛、饥饿、赤裸、风雨和被遗弃。
On the other lies death, hardship, hunger, nakedness, rain, and abandonment.
在那一边，你们会回到巴拿马，一贫如洗。
On that side, you return to Panama to be poor.
而在另一边，你们去秘鲁，变得富有。
On the other, you go to Peru and become rich.
选择权在你们手中。
The choice is yours.
这跟我打电话问你是否愿意做一期播客时的情形非常相似。
It's very like when I phoned you to ask if you would like to do a podcast.
天啊，确实如此。
God, it is.
对。
Yeah.
他在沙滩上画了一条线，说这一边是安逸。
Drew a line in the sand and said, on that side is comfort.
另一边是金镊子。
On the other is Golden tweezers.
制造出这风雨和被遗弃的境遇。
Making this rain and abandonment.
所以只有12个人跨过去了，是吧？
And so only 12 crossed, don't they?
只有12个人跨过去了。
Only 12 men crossed.
其中一个是位非常酷的希腊人，来自克里特岛。
And one of them is a very cool guy who's a Greek, who's come from Crete.
佩德罗·德·坎迪亚。
Pedro de Candia.
佩德罗·德·坎迪亚，他是
Pedro de Candia, who's
火炮和火器专家。
an expert in artillery and firearms.
我刚才提到火炮和火器，其实并没有特别的原因。
And I just mentioned that artillery and firearms, you know, for no particular reason.
我的意思是，这可能对后续剧情没有影响。
I mean, it may not have an impact later on in the plot.
佩德罗·德·坎迪亚是个巨人。
Pedro de Candia is a giant.
于是，这位巨人希腊人和另外十一个家伙跨到了皮萨罗那一边。
So the giant Greek and and 11 other blokes cross to Pizarro's side of the line.
其余的人则回到船上，前往巴拿马。
The rest of them get back on the ship and go to Panama.
在接下来的几个月里，皮萨罗和这些男子——后来在西班牙绘画和文学中被 immortalized 为著名的十三人或不朽的十三人——一直留在这个荒岛上。
And for the next few months, Pizarro and these men, who become immortalized in Spanish paintings and Spanish literature later on as the famous 13 or the immortal 13, they stay on this desert island.
他们这么做几乎是出于固执，因为
And they're almost doing it out of stubbornness because it's
他们根本无处可去。
not like they're gonna go anywhere.
因此，他们因此成了好朋友吗？
Are they becoming good mates as a result of this?
他们彼此之间是否开始厌烦对方？
Are they getting on each other's nerves?
他们是否成为了一群生死与共的兄弟？
Are they a band of brothers?
你认为这对他们产生了什么影响？
What what effect do you think it has on them?
我认为这
I think it
这很可能营造出一种兄弟情谊的氛围，因为这些人中的许多会继续追随皮萨罗。
probably does create a band of brothers thing because a lot of these people will continue will carry on with Pizarro.
因为这正是最引人注目的地方，不是吗？
Because that's the striking thing, isn't it?
他们真的始终团结在一起。
That they they really do stick together.
是的。
Yeah.
他们现在已经全身心投入了。
They're all in now.
他们无法退出，否则会显得很愚蠢。
They can't back out because they'd look like fools.
他们会显得彻底的傻瓜。
They'd look like absolute idiots.
他们留在这个荒岛上，皮萨罗变得越来越消瘦。
They stay on this desert island, Pizarro becoming increasingly emaciated.
最后，船长鲁伊斯回来了，说巴拿马总督表示：够了。
And then at last, the pilot, Ruiz, comes back with a shift and says the the governor of Panama said, you know, enough.
现在回家吧。
Come home now.
你已经表明了你的立场。
You've made your point.
基本上不会再有人来加入你们了。
And basically, no one's gonna come and join you.
于是，他们非常沮丧地登上了船。
So very despondently, they get on the ships.
皮萨罗说：在我们回家之前，能不能再往南看一眼？
And Pizarro says, before we go home, could we just take one last look south?
我们能不能去看看海角那边有什么东西？
Can we just have a look and see what's around the headland or whatever?
于是他们继续前行，进入了戈亚奎尔湾——那里是秘鲁和厄瓜多尔的交界处。
So they go on, and they go into the Gulf Of Goiaquil, which is where Peru and Ecuador meet.
厄瓜多尔南部，秘鲁北部。
Southern Ecuador, Northern Peru.
在那里，他们看到沿海有一个小镇，最终称之为托姆贝斯。
And there, they see a town on the coast, which they end up calling Tombez.
他们靠近这个小镇。
And they go near the town.
皮萨罗的两名手下带着礼物登岸，显然船上有带一些食物。
Two of Pizarro's men go ashore with presents of the the ship clearly has brought them some food.
他们带了猪和鸡。
They've got pigs and chickens.
他们带着猪和鸡作为礼物登岸，当地人
They go ashore with the presents of the pigs and the chickens, and the locals
非常高兴。
are delighted.
所以他们并不害怕这些猪？
So they're not frightened by these pigs?
我觉得如果你从来没看过猪，可能会觉得挺吓人的。
I think if you've never seen a pig before, it'd be unsettling.
他们看起来并不害怕。
They don't seem unsettled.
他们似乎很高兴，可能还会用它做个火腿三明治之类的。
They seem delighted they'd probably make a nice ham sandwich out of it or something.
总之，那两个人回到船上，说：天哪，这正是我们想要的。
Anyway, the two blokes come back onto the boat, and they say, Oh my God, this is what we wanted.
这是一个真正的文明。
This is a proper civilization.
这些人有锅具，穿得体面，有首领，还提到远方有一位国王。
These blokes have pots, they have nice clothes, they have chiefs, and they talk about a king far away.
而且，最棒的是，他们有非常精美的神庙，装饰着金银。
And, best of all, they have very fancy temples decorated with silver and gold.
叮当。
Ka ching.
是的
Yeah.
这就是皮萨罗的想法。
That's what Pizarro's thinking.
太棒了。
Brilliant.
所以皮萨罗得到了他需要的一切。
So Pizarro has what he needs.
他有船，还有那把镊子的证据。
He's got the ship, the evidence of the ship with the tweezers.
他有这个城镇的证据——那里的人欢迎猪的到来，而且他们还有金碧辉煌的神庙。
He's got the evidence of the town where they welcome the arrival of a pig, and they've got temples with gold.
他说，太好了。
And he says, great.
更重要的是，他们从这个城镇出发。
And what's more, they pick up from this town.
他们要么收养、要么俘虏了两个当地男孩，称他们为马丁尼奥和菲利皮奥，就像小马丁和小菲利普一样。
They're either given or they capture two local boys who they call Martinio and Felipio, like little Philip or little Martin.
这些男孩将接受培训，成为翻译，补充他们已有的翻译人员。
And these boys, they're going to train as interpreters to add to the ones they've got already.
这些男孩在这段历史中将扮演重要角色。
And these boys will play a big part in this story.
因为他们实际上成长得相当不错，对吧？
Because they've grown up actually pretty good, right?
是的，至少比其他人强一些。
Yeah, well, better than the rest.
西班牙人总是把他们搞混，因此在编年史中，史学家们总是争论到底是马丁尼奥还是菲利皮奥在做翻译。
The Spanish keep mixing them up, so in the chronicles, the chroniclers always disagree whether it's Martinio or Filipio who's translating.
但无论如何，他们有了翻译人员。
But anyway they've got translators.
而他们所翻译的语言，当然西班牙人并不知道这种语言是什么，但这种语言叫做克丘亚语，是一种广泛的安第斯语言。
And the language, and of course the Spanish don't know what the language is, but the language that they are translating to and from is a language called Quechua, which is a very big Andean language.
所以皮萨罗回到巴拿马，会见了他的商业伙伴，说：看，我们显然在这里有进行另一次远征的巨大潜力。
So Pizarro goes back to Panama and he meets his business partners and he says, look, we've obviously got a lot of potential here for another expedition.
但我们需要获得王室批准，因为我们不想下去发现宝藏后，却有竞争对手带着王室许可前来夺走所有财富。
But we need to get royal approval, because we don't want to go down, find stuff, and then have competitors come down with royal approval to sort of take all the treasure.
这又是那种法律程序的一面。
So it's that legalistic side again.
没错。
Exactly.
因此在1529年春天，皮萨罗返回西班牙，前往西班牙国王、皇帝查理五世所在的托莱多——位于西班牙中部。
So in 1529 in the spring, Pizarro goes back to Spain, and he goes to see the King of Spain, the Emperor Charles V, who is in Toledo, in the centre of Spain.
查理五世是个非常非常忙碌的人。
Now, Charles V is a very, very busy man.
他是西班牙国王，哈布斯堡家族的首领，也是神圣罗马帝国皇帝。
He's the King of Spain, he's the head of the House of Habsburg, he's the Holy Roman Emperor.
他目前正在打两场极其昂贵的战争。
He is currently fighting two very expensive wars.
一场是在意大利对抗法国，另一场是在东欧对抗奥斯曼帝国。
One is against the French in Italy, and the other is against the Ottomans in Eastern Europe.
因此，他最想要的莫过于来自新大陆的黄金和白银。
So what he wants more than anything is gold and silver from the New World.
皮萨罗对他说：陛下，我听说这个地方叫比鲁非常出色。
And Pizarro says to him, your majesty, you know, I've heard that this place Biru is brilliant.
我还没去过那里，但听说了很多好消息。
I've not been there, but I've heard very good things.
他们有金制的镊子。
They have golden tweezers.
他们有精美的器皿。
They have lovely pots.
他们有漂亮的衣物。
They have nice clothes.
所有这些。
All of this.
陛下，我送您一个锅。
Give you, your majesty, a pot.
但查理喜欢锅。
But Charles loves a pot.
只要能把它熔成钱用于他的战争。
If he can melt it down into into money for his wars.
巧的是，当时在托莱多宫廷，正有埃尔南·科尔特斯前来拜访，带来大量献给王室的礼物。
Now, as luck would have it, also in Toledo at the court visiting with the loads of gifts for the royal family is Hernan Cortes.
他正从墨西哥回来，这是他周期性的一次返程。
He's making one of his periodic returns from Mexico.
难道这次他带着一帮阿兹特克小丑来给教皇表演吗？
Is this where he turns up with loads of Aztec mime artists for the pope?
他们的身体就是工具。
Their bodies are their tools.
他不总是带着原住民四处旅行吗？
Is he not always traveling with indigenous people?
总之，科尔特斯在宫廷里大受欢迎。
Well, anyway, Cortez has gone down an absolute storm.
正因为如此，人们非常倾向于认为，在更南边还有一片新的墨西哥。
And because of that, people are very well inclined to the idea of, oh, there's another Mexico further south.
太棒了。
Well, brilliant.
因此，在1529年7月，位于塞维利亚的印度事务委员会授权皮萨罗进行对秘鲁地区的探索、征服与殖民。
So in July 1529, the Council of the Indies, which is based in Seville, authorizes Pizarro to conduct the discovery and conquest and settlement of the province of Peru.
他们对他说，你将担任首任总督。
And they say to him, you will be the first governor.
你将是他的首任总司令。
You'll be his first captain general.
如果你找到了那里，我们将赐予你一笔终身巨额薪俸，实际上比科尔特斯在墨西哥所得的薪水还要翻倍。
If you find it, we will give you a massive salary for life, actually double the salary that's given to Cortez in Mexico.
所以，他从中获得了非常优厚的条件。
So he's got a really good deal out of it.
这有点像特许经营。
It's kind of a franchising.
是的。
Yeah.
这是一种特许经营。
It's franchise.
他拥有特许经营权。
He's got the franchise.
皮萨罗必须出资
Pizarro has to put up
并承担风险，但他拥有
the capital and take the risk, But he has the
品牌名称。
brand name.
没错。
Exactly.
但有一个问题。
There is one catch.
当他获得特许经营权时，不小心忘了为他的商业伙伴争取一个好条件。
When he got the franchise, he accidentally forgot to get a good deal for his business partners.
哦，那个威尔士人。
Oh, The Welsh guy.
是的。
Yeah.
事情就是这样运作的。
This is how it works.
所以那个独眼的男人，迭戈·德·阿尔马格罗，他的回报是——皮萨罗拿到了巨额薪水，还当上了总督和总司令。
So the guy with only one eye, Diego de Almagro, he's going to be the his reward well, Pizarro has a massive salary and is governor and captain general.
阿尔马格罗被授予托姆贝斯镇指挥官的头衔，但这明显低得多。
Almagro has been rewarded with the title of commandant of the town of Tombez, which is which is markedly inferior.
所以当皮萨罗回来时，他根本不会高兴，这一点我们很快就会看到。
So he's not gonna be happy at all when Pizarro gets back, as we will discover.
无论如何，皮萨罗于1530年1月从塞维利亚返回新大陆。
Anyway, Pizarro goes back from Seville to the New World, January 1530.
他从自己的故乡埃斯特拉马杜拉招募了大约200名士兵，
He's picked up about 200 recruits from his native Extra Magura by and large,
其中包括六名多明我会修士。
including six Dominican friars.
多明我，这些修士中有一位叫瓦尔韦德吗？
And Dominic, would one of those friars be called Valverde?
他叫瓦尔韦德。
He is called Valverde.
是的。
Yeah.
瓦尔韦德家族将在故事中扮演重要角色。
The Valverde clan will play an important part in the story.
也许是一位神学博士。
Maybe a doctor of theology.
我们很久没在节目中提到过瓦尔韦德了。
It's a long time since we had a Valverde on the show.
长期听众会记得，每当瓦尔韦德出现在《历史其余部分》节目中，各种事情都会随之而来。
And long standing listeners will record that when a Valverde appears on The Rest is History, all kinds of things will follow.
好时光随之而来。
Good times follow.
好时光随之而来。
Good times follow.
没错。
Exactly.
所以有个叫瓦尔韦德的人，将扮演重要角色，还有皮萨罗家的三个兄弟。
So there's this guy Valverde, who will playing an important part, and there's the three Pizzaro brothers.
这三个兄弟会在以后的节目中再次出现。
So of these three brothers, they will, you know, return in later episodes.
所以请记住他们就在那里。
So get them remember that they're there.
最小的那个叫胡安，实际上，关于他们的排行、年龄等等，争议很多，但这是我自己的决定。
There's the youngest who is called I mean, actually, there's so much disagreement about what order they're in, how old they are and whatnot, but this is what I've decided.
胡安是最小的。
Juan is the youngest.
他大概十九岁左右。
He's maybe 19 or so.
大家都说他非常冲动。
And everyone said he's very, impetuous.
他英勇、年轻、潇洒，一切都如此。
He's gallant, he's young, he's dashing, all of this.
然后是冈萨洛。
Then there is Gonzalo.
冈萨洛是中间的那个，大概二十岁左右。
Gonzalo is the middle one, maybe he's about 20.
他非常友好且随和。
He's very friendly and easygoing.
编年史家加尔蒂拉佐说，他充满高贵与美德，深受所有人喜爱与尊敬。
He was full of nobility and virtue and was beloved and respected by everyone, says the chronicler, Garthilazo.
他是
He's the
那种高贵的人。
kind of noble one.
胡安是那种年轻顽皮的家伙。
Juan is the the kind of the young scamp.
是的。
Yeah.
他是什么样的人？
What's he like?
是的。
Yeah.
那第三个呢？他是什么样的？
And then and then the third one, what's he like?
他是最年长的，名叫埃尔南多。
He's the oldest, and he's Hernando.
埃尔南多，这个故事中的重要人物。
Now, Hernando, big figure in this story.
他是唯一一个合法的儿子。
He's the only one who's legitimate.
其他所有人都是私生子。
The others are all legitimate.
一部西班牙编年史这样描述他：个子高大、体格魁梧，嘴唇厚实，舌头笨拙，鼻尖肉厚且发炎。
One Spanish chronicle describes him thus: A tall, heavy man with thick lips and a thick tongue, and the tip of his nose was fleshy and inflamed.
一个自大夸耀的侃侃而谈者。
A great and boastful talker.
所以是马丁·克卢内斯？
So Martin Klunes?
是的。
Yeah.
他看起来并不像一个英俊的帅哥，但大家都说他很有魅力、迷人且令人印象深刻。
He's he doesn't sound a terrible like a massive looker, but everyone said he was kind of charismatic, charming, impressive.
是的。
Yeah.
是个大块头。
Big bloke.
他有军事经验，因为他确实曾在意大利对抗法国人时服役过。
He's got military experience because he definitely has served in Italy against the French.
他最终会成为弗朗西斯科最亲近的知己和首席顾问，就是埃尔南多。
And he will end up being Francisco's closest confidant, his chief adviser, Hernando.
有没有一种感觉，意大利是你证明自己的地方？
And is there a sense that Italy is is where you earn your spurs?
那里才是军事技术的前沿。
That's the kind of cutting edge of military technology.
没错。
Exactly.
顺便说一下，西班牙军队被认为是世界上最好的军队之一。
Where the Spanish troops are regarded as some of the best in the world, by the way.
到1530年，他们全都回到了巴拿马，皮萨罗正在计划一次新的远征。
So by 1530, they're all back in Panama, and Pizarro is planning a new expedition.
他确实有一个问题。
He does have one problem.
他的商业伙伴迭戈·德·阿尔马格罗对皮萨罗回来后给了他这么糟糕的协议感到极度愤怒。
His business partner, Diego Du Amagro, is absolutely outraged that Pizarro has returned and got him this terrible deal.
皮萨罗说，听好了。
And Pizarro says, look.
听我说。
Listen.
当我们拿下秘鲁后，它的南方一定还有土地，那片土地归你，那就是将来会成为智利的地方。
When we've got Peru, there must be something underneath it to the south, and you can have that, and that's what's gonna become Chile.
所以阿尔马格罗会，你知道的，他之后会去智利。
So Almagro will, you know, he will go off later on to Chile.
但这没有法律盖章，对吧？
But that isn't legally stamped, is it?
所以他没有国王签发的特许状之类的东西？
So he doesn't have kind of letters patent from the king or anything?
没有。
No.
没有。
No.
没有。
No.
而且实际上，他们现在的关系已经破裂了，再也回不去了。
And actually, their relationship now is a bit broken, and it'll never be the same again.
这一点会贯穿整个故事。
And this will run right through this story.
我明白为什么。
I can see why.
是的，当然。
Yeah, of course.
他彻底出卖了他。
He's really sold him out.
他完全出卖了他。
He's completely sold him out.
更糟糕的是，皮萨罗的弟弟埃尔南多极度憎恨阿尔马罗。
And it's worse because Hernando, Pizarro's brother, absolutely despises Almacro.
Anyway，剧透警告。
Anyway, spoiler alert.
这标志着一场将毁灭所有这些人的仇怨的开端。
This is the beginning of a feud that will destroy all these people.
总之，1530年9月27日，皮萨罗从巴拿马启航，前往比鲁。
Anyway, 09/27/1530, Pizarro sets sail from Panama and is bound for Biru.
他带着三艘船、180名士兵和大量马匹——共37匹马。
He's got three ships and 180 men and a load of horses, 37 horses.
现在有一个关键点，阿尔马格罗又犯了同样的错误。
Now a crucial point, Almagro makes the same mistake again.
他说：我会在巴拿马招募更多人，然后随后跟进。
He says, I'll raise more men in Panama and I will follow later.
我稍后会加入你们。
I'll join you later.
这可能是因为他比较谨慎，想先看看事情会如何发展，再决定是否冒险投入生命。
This is maybe because he's a bit cautious and he wants to find out how things are gonna turn out before he, you know, risks his life.
我猜是因为，他现在不再觉得和皮萨罗是生死之交了，因此也不觉得他们像以前那样命运与共了。
I assume that I mean, he doesn't feel quite the blood brother with Pizarro now, and so doesn't feel that they're in it together to the same degree, I suppose.
我也是这么认为的。
I would guess so.
但正如我们将会发现的，这将带来巨大的后果。
But as we will discover, this is gonna have massive consequences.
我的意思是，很多人会因此丧命。
I mean, lots of people will die because of this.
皮萨罗和科茨沿太平洋海岸航行。
Pizarro and Coats sail off down the Pacific Coast.
这次天气不利，他们不得不比原计划早得多地登陆，到达了如今厄瓜多尔的最北部地区。
The weather's against them this time, so they have to make landfall much earlier than they planned in what's now the Far North of Ecuador.
所以，如果你看地图，南美洲的左上角。
So if you look at a map, top left corner of South America.
从那里，他们开始沿海岸行军。
From there, they start to march down the coast.
情况非常糟糕。
It's very miserable.
到处都是蚊子。
There's loads of mosquitoes.
你知道，他们饿着肚子。
You know, they're hungry.
皮萨罗，大家都说，表现得非常好。
Pizarro, everyone says, does really well.
他很勇敢，身材高大。
He's brave, he's big.
当他们过河时，他会背起病人过河，诸如此类的事情。
When they're crossing a river, he will help to carry the sick across on his back, all of this kind of thing.
他总是身先士卒。
He leads from the front.
我的意思是，不管你对他有什么看法，他确实非常勇敢，而且耐力超群，等等。
I mean, whatever else you say about him, he's genuinely brave and he's got tremendous stamina and all this stuff.
而且关心他的部下。
And concern for his men.
而且关心他的部下。
And concern for his men.
他们于1531年2月抵达了第一个定居点，一个叫科瓦克的城镇。
They reached their first settlement, a town called Kowake, in February 1531.
他们发现了很多小屋、一群困惑的村民，还有大量的绿宝石、黄金和白银。
They find a load of huts, they find a load of very baffled villages, and they find a load of emeralds and gold and silver.
所以皮萨罗分掉了大部分战利品，然后奇怪的是，他在这个地方逗留了大约六个月，这听起来并不怎么刺激。
So Pizarro shares a lot of it out, and then weirdly he hangs around in this place, which doesn't sound that thrilling, for about six months.
他们都染上了这种疾病。
They all come down with the disease.
这可能是因为他们待得太久才染上病的，但也可能解释了他们为什么之后还继续留在那里。
This may be actually I mean, they come down the disease because they've hung around, but it may explain why they hung around afterwards.
他们染上了一种叫卡里翁病的可怕疾病，身上会长出巨大的疣，这些疣会出血、脱落。
They come around with a horrible disease called Carrion's disease, where you get these massive warts that then bleed, separating warts.
这些疣是会一直跟着你，还是会痊愈？
Do they stay with you or do they heal?
不会。
No.
我认为如果你真的去查的话，你肯定一辈子都忘不了。
I think they eventually if you I mean, if you Google it, you won't forget it.
所以我的建议就是：别去谷歌搜索。
So don't Google it is all I say.
现在每个人都会去搜索它，当然。
Now everyone will Google it, of course.
汤姆现在就在搜索它。
Tom's googling it as we speak.
他迫不及待想看那些人身上出血的疣的照片。
He can't wait to see all those photographs of people's bleeding warts.
天哪。
Oh my god.
你终于看到库里翁病的那些症状了。
You've finally seen those the Carrion's disease.
是的。
Yeah.
各位，不管怎样，千万不要搜索库里翁病的疣。
Guys, whatever you do, do not Google Carrion's disease warts.
对。
Yeah.
这不太好。
It's not good.
太糟糕了。
Horrible.
现在，关于这些乘坐漂浮房屋而来的留须男子的传言正在传播开来。
So now word is spreading about these bearded men who came in floating houses.
你知道的，就像我们曾经在征服墨西哥时发生过的事情一样。
You know, classic thing like we had with the conquest of Mexico.
最终，来自中美洲、巴拿马的更多援军抵达了。
More reinforcements eventually arrive from Central America from Panama.
阿尔马格罗仍然不在其中。
Almagro is still not among them.
他仍在等待，看接下来会发生什么。
He's still waiting to find out what's gonna happen.
最终，皮萨罗再次启程了。
Eventually Pizarro sets off again.
他跨越了赤道。
He crosses the Equator.
他现在正穿过种植玉米的田野，也就是我们美国听众所说的玉米。
He's now going through fields of cultivated maize, what our American listeners would call corn.
这表明了高度的社会组织性。
This implies a high level of social organisation.
这里正在进行农业生产。
There's farming going on here.
要实现这一点，需要某种形式的社会秩序。
You need some form of social order for that to happen.
翻译人员向西班牙人报告说，当地人正在谈论南方的一个帝国，同时也提到一场战争，但没人真正知道那是什么。
And the interpreters are reporting to the Spanish that people are talking about an empire further south, and also they're talking about a war, but no one really knows what that is.
引人入胜。
Intriguing.
在今天厄瓜多尔的大城市瓜亚基尔以南，他们抵达了一个名为普纳的大岛。
South of Goaquil in Ecuador, big city today, they reach a large island called Puna.
在这里，当地人并不那么友好。
And here, the locals are not so friendly.
他们举办盛大的舞蹈来欺骗西班牙人，然后突然袭击他们。
They stage a massive dance to trick the Spanish and then turn on them.
但当然，正如本系列的主题一样，西班牙人拥有钢制长剑，面对这种武器，当地人根本无法抵抗，最终被他们击败。
But of course, the Spanish, a theme of this series, they have their steel swords against which, you know, there can be no resistance, and they're able to overcome the locals.
他们有马吗？
Do they have horses?
他们确实有马。
They do have horses.
他们大约有三十七到三十八匹马，这再次让南美洲的人们感到极度恐惧，这种情况我们会一再看到。
They've got about 38, 37 horses, again, which absolutely terrify the people of South America, as we will see again and again.
你只要带着两三匹马，就能击败数百人、数千人，因为他们对马匹感到无比恐惧。
You can turn up with two or three horses, and hundreds, and you can defeat hundreds of people, thousands of people because they're so frightened of the horses.
因为这些谣言开始四处传播，对吧？
Because all these rumors start to spread, don't they?
他们吃人。
That they eat people.
我最喜欢的谣言是，人们普遍相信西班牙人根本爬不了坡。
My favorite of all the rumors is that it was widely believed that Spanish were incapable of walking uphill.
那就是马的作用。
That that was what the horses were.
所以他们才需要马。
That's why they had the horses for.
没错。
Exactly.
又有一些人，更多的援军抵达了，其中一位将在故事中扮演重要角色。
So some more people, more reinforcements arrive among a character who will play a part in the story.
一位来自西班牙埃斯特雷马杜拉的骑士，名叫埃尔南多·德索托。
A knight from Spain, from Extremadura, called Hernando de So to.
哦，佛罗里达不久后会有大新闻。
Oh, big news in Florida in due course.
是的，他会来到佛罗里达的一个小公鸡那里。
Yes, he will come to a rooster kid in Florida.
德索托32岁，他又是个身材矮小的人，这个故事里有很多矮个子。
De So to is 32 years old, he's another very short man, there's lot of short people in this story.
但他曾在中美洲赢得了一名非常英俊勇敢的骑手的声誉。
But he has won a reputation in Central America as a very dashing and brave horseman.
那是他最大的特长。
That's his great skill.
他就像那种特别擅长盛装舞步之类的人。
He's like a sort of the person who would be very good at dressage or some such.
不错。
Nice.
他能和安妮公主一起赢得金牌。
He'd win gold with Princess Anne.
他会的。
He would.
他其实会和安妮公主成为很好的朋友。
He'd be great pals with Princess Anne, actually.
他很高贵吗？
Is he posh?
他是个骑士。
He's a knight.
他是，他是一个伊尔瓦尔戈。
He's an he's an ilvalgo.
好吧。
Okay.
他确实是。
So he is.
没错。
Exactly.
他是那种令人敬畏的上流人士。
He's one of those kind of menacing posh people.
如果我是你，我就不会骑那匹马。
I wouldn't get on that horse if I were you.
是的。
Yeah.
他就像年轻版的查尔斯·丹斯。
He's a young Charles Dance.
他确实就是这样。
That's exactly what he is.
所以皮萨罗对索说，对，你可以成为我的主要副手之一。
So Pizarro says to So to, right, you can be one of my chief lieutenants.
实际上，当我们到达秘鲁首都时，你可以成为首都的副总督。
Actually, when we get to Peru, the capital, you can be the lieutenant governor of the capital city.
索特尔说，太棒了，我等不及了。
And Soeter says, brilliant, I can't wait.
我们看看这个承诺最终会怎样。
We shall see how this promise works out.
我说。
I say.
他们现在正一步步接近这个神秘的帝国。
They're now inching closer to this mysterious empire.
现在大约有400人了。
There's about 400 of them now.
于是他们弄了一些木筏，从他们之前所在的岛屿划回大陆，前往他们曾造访过的通布斯镇。
So they get some rafts, they cross from this island that they've been on, back to the Mainland and to the town of Thumbes that they had visited before.
现在，如果你还记得的话，他们之前已经见过那些神庙了。
Now, they'd seen the temples, if you recall.
他们也见过当地人精美的服饰。
They'd seen the people's nice clothes.
他们之前都见过这一切。
They'd seen all this.
但当他们抵达这个城镇时，简直不敢相信自己的眼睛。
But when they get to the town, they can't believe it.
因为建筑都毁坏了，街道也空无一人
Because the buildings are ruined, the streets are deserted
天哪
Oh my
神庙已经被洗劫一空。
the temples have been looted.
到底发生了什么？
What's happened?
是的。
Yeah.
发生了一场末日般的灾难。
Something apocalyptic.
于是他继续前行，想弄清楚发生了什么。
So to goes ahead to find out what's going on.
他找到了河对岸的当地首领。
He finds the local chief across the river.
他把酋长带回去见皮萨罗，酋长并没有详细说明发生了什么，但他提到，有一位更伟大的酋长住在遥远的地方，这位伟大的酋长居住在一个满是金银器皿、房屋和神庙都用黄金装饰的城镇里。
He brings him back to Pizarro, and the chief says, you know, he doesn't really fill them in on what's happened, but he says, There's a much greater chief who lives far away, and this greater chief lives in a town with gold and silver jugs, and houses and temples walled and roofed with gold.
我说。
I say.
皮萨罗心想，哇，这前景不错。
And Pizarro thinks, wow, this is looking good.
他们继续前行。
They continue on.
他们到达的下一个地方是一个叫普埃乔斯的小城镇。
The next place they get to is a little town called Puechos.
这里的当地酋长很友好。
And here the local chief is friendly.
他提供了食物，并补充了一些关于发生了什么的细节。
He gives them food, and he adds a little bit more detail about what's been happening.
他说，我也效忠于这位伟大的酋长——皇帝，皇帝的统治范围从北到南绵延数千英里。
He says, I too answer to this great chief, the emperor, and the emperor's rule extends for thousands of miles north to south.
但他表示，老皇帝已经去世，他的两个儿子正在为控制这个帝国而争斗，这个文明直到现在对外界来说都完全未知。
But, he says, the old emperor has died, and his two sons have been fighting for control of this empire, of a civilisation that up till now has been totally unknown to the outside world.
当地人们称这个文明为塔万廷苏尤，意为‘四区之地’。
And the local people called this civilization Tawantinsuyu, the land of the four quarters.
但汤姆，我们知道它为印加帝国。
But Tom, we know it as the Empire of the Incas.
于是，印加人登场了，我们将发现
And so the Incas enter the chat, and we will find
在广告之后，他们会如何讲述自己的故事。
out what they have to say for themselves after the break.
大家好。
Hello, everyone.
令人无比兴奋，因为我们有关于‘历史其余部分’节的最新消息。
Massive excitement because we have an update on the rest is history festival.
我们终于可以开始公布一些将参加在汉普顿宫举办的节日的重磅嘉宾名单了。
We can finally start revealing some of the massive a list names that we have joining us at that festival at Hampton Court.
是的。
Yes.
所以，如果你错过了，今年七月，我们将在汉普顿宫举办首届《休息历史》节。
So in case you missed it, on the July this year, we will be hosting the inaugural Rest is History Festival at, of all places, Hampton Court Palace.
这是一个仅限《休息历史》俱乐部会员参加的活动。
And this is a festival exclusively for members of the Rest is History Club.
没错，多米尼克。
That's right, Dominic.
正如我提到的，我们会邀请一些重量级嘉宾。
And as I mentioned, we have some huge names coming.
我将与玛丽·比尔德讨论罗马的其他故事，还会邀请节目老朋友阿里·安塔萨里，讨论波斯的其他故事。
So I will be joined by Mary Beard to talk about what else Rome, and I will also be joined by friend of the show, Ali Anthasari, to talk about what else Persia.
是的。
Yes.
我将与另外两位曾做客《休息历史》的嘉宾对话，他们都是粉丝们特别喜爱的人物。
And I'll be talking to two other people who've been on The Rest is History, great fan favorites.
其中一位是才华横溢的特蕾西·博曼，她将与我们探讨都铎王朝的秘密；另一位是深受粉丝喜爱的卡特娅·霍耶，她将谈论她关于魏玛德国的新作。
One of them is the brilliant Tracy Borman, who will be joining us to talk about the secrets of the Tudors, and the other another massive fan favorite is Katja Hoyer, who will be talking about her new work on Weimar Germany.
我们会在下一期节目中告知大家还有哪些嘉宾将加入我们，但请放心，这场活动将在一个难以想象的壮丽而历史悠久的场所举行，注定会是一个精彩绝伦的周末。
So we will let you know, who else is joining us in the next episode, but rest assured, it is shaping up to be a brilliant, brilliant weekend in the most magnificent and historic setting imaginable.
请记住，这个节日仅限我们的会员参加。
And remember, this festival is exclusively for our members.
所以，如果你是节目的朋友，就可以参与抽签，争取两张门票。
So if you are a friend of the show, then you can enter the ballot for two tickets.
然而，如果你是精英级的阿特尔斯坦会员，那么你绝对能获得两张门票，没错，朋友们，保证有票。
If, however, you are part of the elite Athlstan band, then you are absolutely guaranteed, yes, folks, guaranteed access to two tickets.
所有详细信息都会通过电子邮件发送给你。
Now you'll receive all the details via email.
但如果你想了解更多关于节日或抽签的信息，请点击
But if you want more information about the festival or about the ballot, then just click on
节目描述中的链接。
the links in the episode description.
所以如果你还不是会员，那你还在等什么？
So if you're not a member, then what on earth are you waiting for?
立即前往 therestishistory.com 注册吧。
Sign up now at therestishistory.com.
当然，你不仅能获得参加《历史其余部分》节庆活动的资格。
And you don't just, of course, get access to the rest is history festival.
你还能享受到一系列额外的福利。
You get access to a host of supplementary benefits as well.
我们真的迫不及待想在那里见到你。
Genuinely, we cannot wait to see you there.
大家好，欢迎回到《历史其余部分》。
Hello, everyone, and welcome back to The Rest is History.
现在是1532年，顶尖征服者弗朗西斯科·皮萨罗和他的部下终于进入了现代秘鲁的内陆。
It is the 1532, and top conquistador Francisco Pizarro and his men have finally crossed into the mainland of modern day Peru.
多米尼克，直到现在他们才开始意识到自己发现了什么——一片横亘在安第斯山脉与太平洋之间的辽阔土地，这就是印加帝国。
And, Dominic, only now are they beginning to grasp the reality of what they have discovered, an immense land stretching between the Andes and the Pacific, and this is the empire of the Incas.
是的。
Yeah.
终于，我们来谈谈印加人本身了。
So at last, we get to the Incas themselves.
首先，我认为印加人比阿兹特克人要少为人知一些。
So first of all, the Incas, I think, are a little bit less known than the Aztecs.
他们多少带点神秘色彩。
They're sort of shrouded in mystery.
他们并不自称印加人，对吧？
They don't call themselves Incas, do
对。
they?
他们确实不自称印加人。
They don't.
他们根本不会称自己为印加人。
They don't call themselves Incas at all.
所以我们称他们为印加人，是因为他们称自己的皇帝为萨帕·印加，西班牙人就是从这个词得出了‘印加人’这个叫法。
So the reason we call them Incas is that they called their emperor the Sapa Inca, and the Spanish got the word Incas from that.
但据我们所知，他们自称是‘鲁纳’，意思是‘人们’。
But they called themselves, as far as we know, they called themselves probably Runa, which means just the people.
他们称自己的国家不是秘鲁，而是‘图安廷苏约’，意为‘四区之地’，即南北东西四个方向。
And they called their country, not Peru, they called it Tuantin Soyo, the land of the four quarters, north, south, east and west.
他们的历史有些模糊，因为他们没有写下任何文字。
Their history is a little bit obscure because they didn't write anything down.
他们根本没有文字系统。
They had no writing.
你可能会告诉我，他们没有轮子，尼克。
You'd be telling me they didn't have wheels, Nick.
你说得对。
You're right.
你没说错。
You're not wrong.
而且他们没有猪，因此缺少任何文明都不可或缺的三个重要元素。
And they don't have pigs, so they don't have the three important elements for any civilisation.
所以，关于印加人的记载几乎全部来自西班牙编年史家。
So basically what is written about the Incas is all written by Spanish chroniclers.
幸运的是，西班牙人对南美洲非常着迷，在16世纪30年代、40年代和50年代，西班牙征服者、回忆录作者和历史学家们记录了大量资料。
And we're fortunate in some ways that the Spanish were fascinated by South America, and that in the 1530s, 1540s, 1550s, Spanish conquistadors and memoirists and historians are writing lots of stuff down.
但我们当然无法知道这些记载究竟有多准确。
But what we can't know, of course, is how accurate it really is.
但我想
But I would
我猜，如果有这么多人写下这些记录，其中必然包含一定的真实性。
guess again that if you have all these, you know, large numbers of people writing accounts, there must be a measure of truth.
他们不可能凭空捏造一切。
They can't just be making up from nothing.
我也这么认为。
I think so.
我完全同意。
I think absolutely.
因此，印加人并不是秘鲁安第斯地区最早的文明。
So the Incas are not the first civilization in the Peruvian Andes.
你知道，考古学家会告诉你，之前有很多不同的文化。
You know, archaeologists will tell you there were loads of kind of different cultures before.
纳斯卡。
The Nazca.
就是那些线条。
As in the lines.
纳斯卡线条。
The Nazca lines.
查文文明，还有一个非常著名的文明叫蒂瓦纳库。
The Chavin, a very famous civilization called the Tuenaku.
它们很有名吗？
Are they famous?
他们很有名。
They are famous.
我别的什么都不谈。
I talk about nothing else.
我的意思是，我身边的人总是跟我聊图努库。
I mean, the people I hang around with, they're always talking to me about the Tuenaku.
我去伦敦的酒吧里。
I go out in London and in the pubs of London.
我的意思是，多米尼克，我会说他们很有名，但不会说他们家喻户晓。
I mean, I would say, Dominic, I would say they're well known, but I wouldn't say they're famous.
我觉得这里有区别。
I think there's a difference.
我觉得‘家喻户晓’这个词更合适。
I think famous is the word.
所以，汤姆，的的喀喀湖，太阳之门。
So, I mean, Tom, Lake Titicaca, The Gate Of The Sun.
人们总是在聊这个，对吧？
People are always chatting about that, aren't they?
太阳门
The Gate
之门。
Of Sun.
出名。
Famous.
好的。
Okay.
所以，那是图努纳文化最著名的东西。
So that was that's the Timurnacu's most famous thing.
他们在湖边建造了这座奇妙的门，然后大约在公元1000年左右开始衰落。
They built this fantastic gate by a lake, and then they went into decline about a d 1,000.
之后，图努纳人被众多相互竞争的城市国家、部落等所取代。
And then they were succeeded, the Timurnacu, by this loads of competing kind of city states and tribes and stuff.
所有这些人都属于安第斯人，正如我们在休息前所说，他们实际上与外部世界隔绝发展。
And all of these people, so they're Andeans, they developed, as we said before the break, in isolation really from the outside world.
因为秘鲁北部是哥伦比亚的高山森林。
Because North of Peru you have the forests, the highland forests of Colombia.
西边是太平洋。
West you have the Pacific.
东边是亚马逊地区，那里有茂密的热带雨林。
East, you have Amazonia with its dense rainforests.
南边则一直延伸到荒凉的巴塔哥尼亚。
And south, all the way south, you have the wilderness that is Patagonia.
因此，这无疑是地球上最孤立的文明。
So this is by miles the most isolated civilization on the face of the planet.
是的。
Yeah.
我也这么认为。
I think so.
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