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你好。
Hello.
欢迎收听《历史其余部分》，今天我想先朗读一本名为《阳光四季：1974至1979年英国的斗争》的书中的一个索引条目。
Welcome to The Rest is History, and I want to start today's episode by reading, an index entry from a book called Seasons in the Sun, the battle for Britain 1974 to 1979.
在这本书的索引中，我们找到了杰里米·索普：1979年大选，从希腊妓女感染淋病，计划让前情人被佛罗里达的短吻鳄吃掉，丑闻，审判，从沉没的气垫船中涉水上岸，以及威尔逊。
And in the index of this book, we find Thorpe, Jeremy, nineteen seventy nine election, contracts gonorrhea from Greek prostitute, plans to have his ex lover eaten by Florida alligators, scandal, trial, wades ashore from sinking hovercraft and Wilson.
而编写这个索引并撰写这本书的桑德布鲁克，他并没有坐在我旁边。
And the man who compiled that index and wrote the book, Sandbrook, is well, he's not sitting alongside me.
他人在奇平诺顿和布里克斯顿之间，但几乎就坐在我身旁。
He's in Chipping Norton and line of Brixton, but he's virtually sitting alongside me.
你好，汤姆。
Hello, Tom.
杰里米·索普丑闻。
The Jeremy Thorpe scandal.
这是一个许多英国听众都熟悉的议题，因为休·格兰特和本·卫肖最近出演了一部关于此事的精彩剧集，这是一场非常英国式的丑闻。
Now this is a topic that lots of our British listeners will recognise because Hugh Grant and Ben Wishall were recently in a brilliant drama series about it a very British scandal.
那些来自英国以外的人可能完全不知道这是怎么回事。
Those beyond Britain may not have the first idea what this is.
所以我们把问题都写下来了。
So our most we've got the questions written down here.
我们非英国听众最常问的问题是：杰里米·索普丑闻是什么？
Our most common question from all non British listeners, what was the Jeremy Thorpe scandal?
是的。
Yeah.
这是一
That's a
个常见问题。
common question.
杰里米·索普丑闻是什么？
What was the Jeremy Thorpe scandal?
首先，非常感谢。
Well, first of all, thank you so much.
我喜欢做那些索引。
I love doing those indexes.
很高兴你读了出来。
I'm glad you read that out.
我们是不是应该说一下，汤姆？
And we should say, shouldn't we, Tom?
这个想法不是我们为播客提出的。
This isn't our idea for the podcast.
这是听众寄来的，对吧？
This is sent in by a listener, wasn't it?
由保罗·基利提交的。
By Paul Kealy.
由保罗·基利提交的。
By Paul Kealy.
所以，保罗，这个是专门给你的。
So, Paul, this one is for you.
如果没人听，那都是你的错。
And if nobody listens, it's all your fault.
那么杰里米·索普丑闻到底是什么？
So what was the Jeremy Thorpe scandal?
嗯，这基本上就是这个播客要讲的内容，所以我不会把所有细节都透露出来。
Well, that's basically what the podcast is about, so I won't give all the details away.
但简而言之，杰里米·索普是20世纪70年代自由党的领导人。
But to cut a very long story short, Jeremy Thorpe was the leader of the Liberal Party in the 1970s.
所以，作为常听节目的听众，你们知道，自由党在19世纪是英国民主两大主要政党之一。
So the Liberal Party was, as a regular listener, the podcast will know, it was one of the great the two great parties of of sort of British democracy in the nineteenth century.
但在20世纪，它经历了艰难时期，并逐渐衰落。
But in the twentieth century, it had a pretty tough time and it declined.
但在索普的领导下，似乎正在迎来一些复苏。
But under Thorpe seemed to be making a bit of a comeback.
因此，自由党赢得了近20%的选票。
So the Liberals won almost 20% of the vote
在七十年代。
in the seventies.
是的。
Yeah.
1974年2月。
In February 1974.
所以，你可以说，那是他……的选举。
And so, you know, you might say that's the election where he was
到处乘坐飞艇。
going around in a hover.
不是。
No.
是在下一次选举，
It was in the next election,
10月17日。
October 17.
我们稍后再谈飞艇。
We'll come back to the hovercraft.
是的。
Yeah.
杰里米·索普是自由党的领导人。
So Jeremy Thorpe is the leader of the Liberal Party.
尽管听起来难以置信，但他登上英国政坛巅峰的历程，却因被指控密谋谋杀他前情人——一位名叫诺曼·斯科特的马厩工人兼兼职模特——而中断了。
And as implausible as it may seem, his great sort of, you know, his his his ride to the top of British politics is interrupted by the fact that he's accused of conspiring to murder his former lover, a a stable hand and sometime model called Norman Scott.
起初，人们认为这个故事完全荒谬，但当他们开始深入调查时，发现事情远不止表面那么简单。
And at first, people think this story is completely mad, but then when they start looking into it, they see there's a bit more to it than that.
随着故事的展开，各种古怪的人物纷纷登场。
And and as the story unfolds, it brings in all these sort of bizarre characters.
你有一个水果机经销商。
So you've got a a fruit machine dealer.
你还有一个地毯销售员。
You've got a carpet salesman.
正如你所提到的，有一个阴谋要在佛罗里达杀害这个人，并把他喂给短吻鳄。
There's a plot, as you alluded to, to murder this man in Florida and feed him to alligators.
这件事逐渐牵扯进了工党政府。
It sort of starts to suck in the Labour government.
报纸日复一日地报道，这件事在七十年代的英国成了轰动一时的丑闻。
The newspapers run it day after day after day, and it becomes this colossal kind of coarse celebrity in seventies Britain.
这似乎引发了许多疑问：为什么这件事重要？
It actually seems to you know, a lot of questions are, well, why did it matter?
我认为其中一个答案是，它似乎反映了七十年代英国政治普遍的荒诞感，以及一种崩塌的氛围。
I think one one answer to that is it seemed to reflect a general sort of comic cedarness about British politics in the seventies and a sense of breakdown and so on.
事实上，这件事发生在水门事件同期，或稍晚一两年，但它的故事比水门事件有趣得多。
And actually, you know, it happens at the same time as Watergate or a year or two after Watergate, but it's a much more amusing story than Watergate.
而且，当你逐步了解整个过程时，你会发现这其实是一个相当悲剧的故事。
And, also, that does it is quite a tragic story as you'll discover when we sort of go through it.
在这一切荒诞滑稽的闹剧背后，有许多人的人生被彻底毁掉了。
There's a lot of sort of broken lives involved amid all the sort of, you know, the sort of carnivalesque sort of bawdy farce.
所以，换句话说，过去我们做过阿道夫·希特勒。
So it's I mean, basically, we so in the past, we've done we've just done Adolf Hitler.
穆罕默德。
Muhammad.
我们做过伊斯兰教的起源，做过法国大革命，都是宏大的主题。
We've done the Origins of Islam, we've done the French Revolution vast sweeping themes.
而这次，我们却要深入一个非常具体的事件，非英国听众，甚至许多英国听众都从未听说过它。
Here we're going up really up close to a subject that non British listeners and even many British listeners will have never even heard of it.
但它却是一个绝对精彩的故事，正如你所说，它确实揭示了1970年代英国的种种面貌。
And yet it is an absolutely brilliant story, and as you say, it does kind of reveal all kinds of things about 1970s Britain.
而且，因为它涉及一段同性恋情。
Also, because it's about a gay affair.
这正好处于同性恋在60年代仍属违法的时期与杰里米·索普作为一位冉冉升起的年轻议员时并不担心法律问题之间的中间点。
And this is kind of midpoint between homosexuality having been criminalised in the 60s, when Jeremy Thorpe is an up and coming young MP and is not worried about it being criminal.
他似乎很享受这段关系。
He seems to have enjoyed it.
他似乎很享受那种危险的气息。
He seems to have enjoyed the whiff of danger.
而如今，我们所处的时代，亨普斯特德幸存者已经完全被接受了。
And of course, where we are now, where Hempstead Survivor is completely accepted.
因此，这也从另一个角度有趣地反映了这一变化的过程。
So it's also a kind of interesting temperature take on the course of that change as well.
所以我认为，从各种角度来看，这都值得专门做一期节目。
So I think in all kinds of ways it well merits an episode.
我想我们还是应该从杰里米·索普本人开始。
And I guess we should begin with Jeremy Thorpe himself.
我们收到了斯蒂芬·克拉克的一个问题，他总是给我们提供很棒的问题。
So we have a question from Stephen Clark, who's always sending us great questions.
问题是关于杰里米·索普的：他是保守党议员的儿子，伊顿公学毕业，剑桥三一学院校友，一直痴迷于迎娶玛格丽特公主。
It says about Jeremy Thorpe, the son of a Conservative MP, an old Etonian, a Trinity College man, possessing an obsession with marrying Princess Margaret.
杰里米·索普是如何成为自由党领袖的？
How did Jeremy Thorpe end up as leader of the Liberal Party?
因为他很可能本该是个保守党人，不是吗？
Because he should probably have been a Tory, shouldn't he?
嗯，他出身于一个保守党家庭。
Well, he became from a Tory family.
这实际上是一个关于自由主义非常有趣的故事。
And this is actually a really interesting story about liberalism.
自由主义在十九世纪的大部分时间里曾是英国的主导信条，几乎是英国带入第一次世界大战的信条。
So liberalism had been the sort of governing creed of of Britain for much of the nineteenth century and almost the creed where Britain took into the First World War.
然后自由主义确实就失宠了。
And then liberalism really falls from grace.
没有有抱负的政客会加入自由党。
No ambitious politician will join the Liberal Party.
我的意思是，你会加入工党或保守党。
I mean, you'll join the Labour Party or the Tories.
但自由党在英国某种程度上还是存续了下来。
But the Liberal Party kind of lives on in Britain.
我的意思是，20世纪英国政治中一个有趣的现象是，我们现在有了自由民主党，而自由主义传统从未消失。
I mean, that's one of the interesting stories about British politics in the twentieth century that, know, we now have a Liberal Democrat Party, and and the the Liberal tradition never disappeared.
它一直存活下来，你可以称之为——我不是想无礼，但它们主要存在于边缘地带，地理上的边缘地区。
And it and it sort of survived on what you call I mean, not being rude, but they're kind of fringes, the geographical fringes.
比如北威尔士、苏格兰，尤其是西南部的康沃尔和德文郡。
So North Wales, Scotland, and particularly in the Southwest, in Cornwall and Devon.
这些地方有着深厚的卫理公会传统。
And these are places with a big kind of Methodist tradition.
所以它们是某种具有异议性质的地区。
So they're they're sort of dissenting kind of places.
它们离伦敦很远。
They're long way from London.
而且是重要的地区。
And serious places.
是的。
Yeah.
那些地方。
They're places.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
如果你是个认真的人，那里并没有强大的工会运动。
If you're an earnest person, there's no real big trade union movement there.
所以，如果你是一个自我提升的、属于工人阶级的自学成才者，或者经常去教堂并认真对待信仰的人，你就不会加入工党。
So you don't join the Labour Party if you're a sort of self imp if you're a self self improving, sort of, working class autodidact or something or somebody who goes to chapel and really takes it seriously.
你会加入自由党。
You join the Liberal Party.
而且穿袜子配凉鞋是一种刻板印象。
And you wear socks or sandals is a stereotype.
嗯，这确实是一种刻板印象。
Well, that is the stereotype.
你非常善良，很关心外国穷人的困境之类的事情。
That you're kind of very well meaning, and you think a lot about the plight of the poor in foreign lands and that sort of thing.
杰里米·索普是个典型的无赖。
Now Jeremy Thorpe is this consummate bounder.
我的意思是，他是无赖中的无赖。
I mean, he is the bounder's bounder.
你知道，他是伊顿公学出身。
You know, he's an he's a he's he's a Eaton.
他最大的特点之一是拉小提琴，然后去了牛津，全身心投入牛津的政治圈。
His one big thing was he played the violin, then he goes to Oxford and he throws himself into the world of Oxford politics.
他成为了牛津法律学会的主席。
He becomes president of the Oxford Law Society.
他还当上了牛津联盟的主席，这是有抱负的政治家的经典跳板。
He becomes president of the Oxford Union, which is a sort of classic staging post for ambitious politicians.
但他并没有加入保守党，而这是你本该期待的。
But he doesn't get involved with the Tory party, which you would expect.
他被吸引住了。
He's drawn.
我在想，即使在这一阶段，Thorpe 也极其张扬，显然他是同性恋。
And I I wonder whether even at this stage, there's this sort of you know, Thorpe is incredibly flamboyant, and he's clearly gay.
他知道他是同性恋，我认为，因为他曾经
He, you know, he knows he's gay, I think, because he had
所以有个问题，嗯，严格来说这甚至不是一个问题。
So there's a question from well, it's not even a question.
这是来自 Lou Smorles 的一个评论。
It's a comment from Lou Smorles.
我记忆中的 Jeremy Thorpe，就是他帽子品味很差。
What I remember about Jeremy Thorpe was his bad taste in hats.
是的。
Yeah.
当别人都不再戴帽子的时候，他还在戴。
So he wears a hat after everybody else no longer wears a hat.
他在一个戴帽子成为怪异标志的时期依然戴着帽子。
He wears a hat at a point where a hat is a sort of mark of eccentricity.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为他进入自由党是因为他非常有才华，而且特别幽默。
And I think he went into the Liberal Party because if you were very talented, he's very funny.
他非常聪明。
He's very clever.
他是一名律师。
He's a he's a barrister.
模仿。
Mimic.
他是个出色的模仿者。
He's a brilliant mimic.
没错。
Exactly.
所以，如果你能做所有这些事，你知道，在保守党里这些本事一抓一大把，都是那种出身高贵的花花公子类型。
So if you can do all those things, you know, through they're 10 a penny in the Tory party, sort of posh bounder types.
但如果你进入自由党，那里基本上沉闷乏味、毫无生气，你反而能成为自由党的领袖。
Whereas if you go into the Liberal Party where basically it's incredibly staid and downbeat, you know, you can be leader of the Liberal Party.
你可以把自己变成个人的载体。
You can become your personal vehicle.
我认为，正因为知道这一点，这几乎是一条轻松的路。
And I think there's an element of thought knowing that, you know, it's almost an easy ride.
他可以去加入——我的意思是，虽然我们之前把索普塑造成一个滑稽可笑的人物，但他确实是个真正的自由派。
He can go and join I mean, he's all of that said, Tom, before we set Thorpe up as this comic comic figure, he's also genuinely liberal.
他非常反对种族隔离，不是吗？
He's very and he's very hostile to apartheid, isn't he?
所以他确实是南非种族隔离政权的坚定反对者。
So he's he's a he's a committed opponent of the apartheid regime in South Africa.
是的。
Yes.
没错。
Exactly.
实际上，这种与南非的联系会贯穿整个故事。
And actually, that's gonna run through this through this whole story, the South African connection.
所以，他其实是在五十年代进入英国政坛的。
So this is a he enters British politics in the fifties, really.
从那时起，你就会因为坚决反对种族主义、反对种族隔离，以及在这些问题上持进步立场而在政坛中脱颖而出。
And from that point onwards, you know, being very anti racist, being very anti apartheid, being very kind of progressive on these kinds of issues really marks you out in politics.
因为这在当时并不常见，工党内虽然也有一些人，但……
It's because it's not really that usual in I there are people in the Labour Party and there are
再加上喜欢戴帽子的癖好。
some when combined with a penchant for wearing hats.
但如果你风格张扬，那就另当别论。
Not if you're flamboyant.
这才是奇怪的地方。
It's the that's the weird thing.
在英国政坛表现得张扬往往意味着你持极右立场。
Being flamboyant in British politics often means you're very right wing.
是的。
Yeah.
索瑟普不是那样的。
Thorpe is not like that.
他绝对致力于人权以及这些议题，这让他在那些穿袜子配凉鞋的人群中备受关注。
He's absolutely committed human rights and to these kinds of issues that get him big takes from the sort of socks and sandals people.
但他很幽默。
But he's funny.
他非常幽默。
He's very funny.
有个问题。
Here's a question.
所以他致力于人权。
Would so he's committed to to human rights.
他是反种族主义的。
He's anti racist.
他是否也致力于同性恋权利？
Was he also committed to gay rights?
他的同性恋身份也是吗？
And so is his homosexuality?
他是同性恋，但在同性恋仍属非法的时代，他以极其张扬的方式表现自己的性取向，因此始终游走在危险边缘。
He's gay, but he's flamboyantly gay at a time where it's illegal, so he's constantly skirting the edge of danger.
这是纯粹的个人行为，还是他通过这种方式表达政治立场？
Is that a purely personal thing, or is he making a political point by
这样做？
doing it?
不是。
No.
他根本不是在表达政治立场。
He's not making political points at all.
对。
Right.
没错。
So right.
所以，汤姆，我觉得我真的不想只是给你讲一通关于二十世纪中期英国的事，如果我讲得太啰嗦，你就告诉我闭嘴，好吗？
So he, Tom, I think is really I I don't want to just end up lecturing you about sort of mid century Britain, so tell me to shut up if I get too No.
不。
No.
我，他们当时是
I I they were
在这方面更好。
better on this.
但有些
But some
你对它的描述太精彩了。
And your account of it is is so brilliant.
所以索普，你知道的，他在五十年代和六十年代年轻时进入政界，而那时人们生活在对被暴露为同性恋的极度恐惧中。
So Thorpe Thorpe's, you know, he is a young meteor entering politics in the fifties and then the sixties at a time when people live in terror, in utter terror of being exposed as gay.
所以之前发生过一桩案子，上议院最年轻的议员，贝勒居的蒙塔古勋爵，确实被指控了。
So there had been a case, the youngest member of the House of Lords, Lord Montagu of Beaulieu, had been Yeah.
就是那个上议院。
As in the house.
他确实被送进了监狱。
Had been sent yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
他被关进了监狱。
Had been sent to prison.
你知道，他因为什么被监禁我记不清了，可能是公共厕所里的行为之类的。
You know, he'd been jailed for I can't remember what it was, whether it's carrying on in public toilets or something.
但这正是五十年代典型的事件。
But this was the classic thing that happened in the fifties.
你知道，你会去寻找那种所谓的邂逅。
You know, you'd go to look for for action, as it were.
结果发现，你搭讪的那个人其实是个便衣警察。
And then it turns out that the guy you've picked up is actually an undercover policeman.
于是你被抓了，立刻被送上法庭，报纸上全都是你的丑闻，你的事业就此完蛋。
And you're busted and you're taken to court, you know, forth you know, straight away and exposed in the newspapers and bang, your career is over.
但你的妻子会支持你
But your wife stands by you
然后对的。
and then Yeah.
她会离你而去
Falls to you
几年后。
a couple of years later.
这就是典型的模式。
That's the classic pattern.
是的。
Yeah.
现在，索普年轻时显然对这种粗犷的伴侣有偏好。
Now Thorpe, as a young man, clearly had this taste for kind of rough trade.
你知道，他经常在酒吧搭讪人，还有许多关于在厕所或街角搭讪并带他们回自己房间的故事。
You know, there's a lot of kind of picking people up in pubs and stories about picking people up in toilets or street corners and taking them back to his kind of rooms.
到了早上，他会给他们三英镑，然后他们就走了。
And then in the morning, he'll give them £3 and off they go.
他还经常出国做这种事。
And he does he does a lot of it going abroad.
所以他去了希腊，就是在那儿染上了淋病。
So he goes off to Greece, which is where he gets his gonorrhea.
你知道，他偶尔会向一些朋友提起，或在密友面前暗示这件事。
You know, he he and he sort of he mutters about it to some of his friends or he hints at it among his confidence.
但总的来说，这种事你都会尽量保密。
But by and large, you know, you keep this kind of thing very quiet.
如果这件事曝光，会毁了你，因为同性恋在二十世纪六十年代末之前都不会被合法化。
If it comes out, it will destroy you because homosexuality is not then going to be decriminalized until the very end of the nineteen sixties.
对。
Right.
那么杰里米·索普是什么时候遇到诺曼·斯科特的呢？诺曼是个马厩工人，情感上受过创伤——我认为说他不够稳定是公平的。
So so when does Jeremy Thorpe meet Norman Scott who is this stable hand, emotionally damaged I think it would be fair to say, not the most balanced of boys.
索普是在同性恋合法化之后才遇到他的吗？
Does does thought meet him once homosexuality is is legal?
不。
Or No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
仍然属于非法。
Still illegal.
所以这非常早。
So it's quite early.
所以谋杀——我们稍后会谈到的这次未遂谋杀——直到七十年代中期才发生，但他们是在1961年相遇的，我想是在六十年代初，非常早。
So the the the murder so the attempted murder, which we'll come to, doesn't happen till the mid seventies, but they meet in 1961, I think at the beginning of the 1960 that early.
我之前没意识到。
I hadn't realized.
这实在太早了。
It's very early.
他们实际上就在我现在所在地附近，奇平诺顿附近的金汉马厩相遇的。
They meet actually just down the road from where I am now at Kingham Stables near Chipping Norton.
所以从我所在的地方开车过去，大概只有三分钟，那是个美丽的、像巧克力盒子一样的村庄。
So it's literally about sort of three minutes drive where I am in this beautiful chocolate boxy kind of village.
他们在那里相遇。
They meet there.
索普当时是去参加一个家庭聚会之类的活动。
Thorpe has gone, I think, for a house party or something like that.
他遇到了一个当马夫的家伙。
And he meets this guy who's working as a stable hand.
当时，这个家伙叫诺曼·约瑟夫。
Now at that point, the guy is called Norman Joseph.
他不叫诺曼·斯科特。
He's not called Norman Scott.
他改名这一事实，反映出他生活的某种混乱状态。
The fact he changes his name gives you some sense of the kind of slight chaos of his life.
正如你所说，他是一个有些受损、精神不太稳定的人，但有着成为男模等种种抱负。
And he's, as you say, he's a sort of a damaged, kind of disturbed guy who has an ambition to, among other things, to become a male model.
他遇到了索普。
He meets Thorpe.
你知道，索普显然对他产生了兴趣，说保持联系。
You know, Thorpe obviously takes a fancy to him and says, you know, keep in touch.
他们确实一直保持联系。
And they do keep in touch.
结果这个家伙被解雇了，我想，可能是从马厩被开除，或者灰头土脸地离开了。
And what happens is this guy ends up getting fired, I think, from the stables or leaving under under a cloud.
他还丢了国民保险号码。
And he's he he he loses his national insurance number.
是吗？
Is that right?
这会儿呢，我们之前聊过几个问题，我的最爱之一。
This is now this is we had a couple of I mean, my favorite question.
可能是我们通过Crowfoot收到过的最棒的问题。
Probably my favorite question we've ever had through a through a Crow Crowfoot.
你能帮我办一张新的国民保险卡吗？
Can you get me a new national insurance card?
所以能
So can
你帮我？
you get me?
是的。
Yeah.
所以
So
这是诺曼·斯科特一直问杰里米·索普的问题。
this is the question that Norman Scott is always asking Jeremy Thorpe.
你能给我办一张新的国民保险卡吗？
Can you get me a new national?
所以，是的，这件事一直笼罩着整个故事。
So yes, this hangs over this whole story.
对于国外的人来说，这完全令人困惑。
And for foreign for overseas, this is utterly bewildered by this.
你的国民保险卡上有一个号码，你需要它来找工作，而且你确实有这张卡。
Your national insurance card basically had a number on it that you needed to get a job and you had this card.
如果你记不住你的号码——坦白说，我对其中的具体机制也不是完全理解，但你基本上只要出示这张卡就能找工作，这样他们才能为你登记并缴纳正确的税款等等。
And if you couldn't remember your number or I assume you I mean, to be honest, it's not something that I fully understand the mechanics of, but you basically just show it to get a job so they could be registered and that they would pay the right tax and all the rest of it.
所以他离开这个马厩时是带着污点的。
So he's left this stable under a cloud.
他没有拿到他的卡，于是他开始痴迷于一个想法，认为索普能给他弄一张新的国民保险卡，因为索普是国会议员，所以是个大人物。
He hasn't got his card, And he becomes obsessed with the idea that Thorpe can get him a new national because Thorpe is an MP, so he's a big person.
总之，索普把他带回了家。
Anyway, Thorpe takes him home.
索普他...他们...他们最终见面了。
Thorpe he they they they end up meeting.
索普带他去了他母亲厄休拉的家，索普与他母亲关系非常亲密。
Thorpe takes him to his mother's house, his mother Ursula, who Thorpe has this very close relationship with.
据称，就是在那时索普第一次夺走了他的童贞。
And allegedly, that's when Thorpe first kind of deflowers him.
任何看过最近那部改编剧的人，都会记得休·格兰特说‘小兔子’时的精彩演绎。
And anyone who has seen the dramatisation of this, the recent one, will remember the magnificent way in which Hugh Grant says 'bunny'.
我无法充分模仿休·格兰特说话的方式，虽然我很想试试，但我不想成为一个网络梗。
I can't adequately do homage the way that Hugh Grant says I'm I'm tempted to do it, but I don't wanna become a meme.
不。
No.
所以，兔子必须而且将会去法国？
So so bunnies must and will go to France?
是的。
Yeah.
所以事情是这样的，他们显然见过几次面，索普向斯科特——也就是他自称的约瑟夫——做了一系列承诺。
So what happens is they obviously see each other a few times, And Thorpe makes a series of promises to Scott, to Joseph as he's calling himself.
抱歉，他那时还没自称斯科特。
Sorry, he's not calling himself Scott yet.
并且给了他一些小钱。
And he gives him small amounts of money.
他让他住下等等。
He lets him stay and so on.
而约瑟夫·斯科特有个志向，我记得是去巴黎。
And Joseph stroke Scott has an ambition to go to Paris, I think it is.
当模特。
Become a model.
是的。
Yes.
索普说，我们可以这么做之类的。
And Thorpe sort of says, oh, we can do that or something.
但这其实并不当真。
But but it kind of doesn't really mean it.
基本上，他厌倦了他，后来写了一张便条，说兔子们一定能去法国之类的。
And and basically, it tires of him and at some point writes him a note where he says bunnies can and will go to France or whatever.
顺便说一句，那种语气完全不对。
Says that's completely the wrong voice, by the way.
是的。
Yes.
你听起来像丘吉尔。
You sound like Churchill.
我当时在想象丘吉尔。
I was imagine Churchill.
丘吉尔大概会说，身为英国人感到自豪之类的话，对吧？
Churchill probably say, mean, proud to be British or something like that, wouldn't he?
总之，他写了这封信，而约瑟夫·斯科特一直留着，这简直灾难性。
Anyway, he writes this note and and and Joseph stroke Scott keeps it, which is disastrous.
他保留了索普给他的所有东西。
He's keeping everything that Thorpe is giving him.
他还保留了一封信，里面索普说他想娶玛格丽特公主之类的话。
And he's kept a letter in which Thorpe says that he wants to marry Princess Margaret or something.
我理解得对吗？
Have I got that right?
索普变得越来越老了。
So Thorpe is getting older and older.
索普的人脉非常广。
Thorpe is very well connected.
在20世纪60年代初，索普的朋友安东尼·阿姆斯特朗-琼斯娶了玛格丽特公主。
And at one point at the beginning of the 1960s, Thorpe's friend, Anthony Armstrong Jones, marries Princess Margaret.
所以索普与上流社会的人士关系非常密切。
So Thorpe is very connected with the society of people.
对此，索普感到心碎。
And Thorpe is gutted by this.
他说，坦白讲，我本想娶一个，和另一个睡觉之类的。
And he says, you know, to be quite frank, I'd I wanted to marry one and sleep with the other or something.
当然，你知道，这是一句玩笑话，但在当时同性恋仍属非法的社会背景下，这句话就另当别论了。
And of course, you know, that's a it's a joke, but it's kind of in the context of a society in which homosexuality is illegal.
对于一个有抱负的政治家来说，写下这样的话可不是什么好事。
That's not a great thing for an aspiring politician to write.
尤其是写在你可能用来勒索的信里。
And especially not in a letter that you're potentially blackmailing
对。
Right.
一个深受伤害的性伴侣。
Very damaged sex lover has.
对。
Right.
于是时间流逝，索普基本上被击垮了。
So the so time ticks by and Thorpe basically is broken.
他被这个男人抛弃了。
He's ditched to this guy.
我的意思是，对索普来说，这个男人根本无足轻重。
I mean, this guy to Thorpe, I think, is nothing.
在电视剧《拉塞尔·T》中。
In the TV drama, Russell T.
戴维斯，这部剧的编剧，营造出一种非常悲情的氛围，让人觉得这是一段受挫的、注定失败的恋情，似乎本可以发展得更深远。
Davis, the the the writer of the drama, kind of creates this very tragic and sort of set this sense that it was a it was a kind of frustrated or doomed romance, that there was something that could have been bigger than it was.
但我觉得，现实中索普根本没把诺曼·约瑟夫或后来的斯科特放在心上。
But I think in reality, Thorpe didn't really think anything of Norman Joseph or Scott as he became.
他只是他只是个一时的兴致罢了。
He just he was just a passing fancy Yeah.
在他众多邂逅又抛弃的年轻男子中，他不过是其中之一。
Among many young men that he picked up and dropped.
但对于诺曼来说，这件事在他心中变得越来越重要，他觉得杰里米·索普背叛了他，更重要的是，杰里米·索普偷走了他的国民保险卡。
But for Norman, this is this looms larger and larger in his mind, and he thinks that Jeremy Thorpe has betrayed him and crucially that Jeremy Thorpe has stolen his National Insurance card.
好的。
Okay.
所以我们再回到这一点。
So we come back to that.
是的。
Yeah.
所以从国民保险卡这件事，你能感受到约瑟夫这个人有多多少有点异常。
So the National Insurance, you get a sense of how to how sort of slightly disturbed this guy, Joseph, is that the National Insurance card.
我的意思是，人们肯定经常丢掉自己的国民保险卡。
I mean, people must have been losing their National Insurance cards all the time.
是的。
Yeah.
在六十年代的英国，你知道，政府肯定收到了大量人报告说：我丢了国民保险卡。
In Sixties Britain, you know, I mean, that that the the government must have been deluged by people saying, I've lost my national insurance card.
我能申请一张新的吗？
Can I get a new one?
当然，频繁改名要难得多，但他就是对这张该死的卡着了魔，认为杰里米·索普在阻挠他申请新卡。
Of course, it's more difficult to keep changing your name, but he's just obsessed with this bloody card and thinks that Jeremy Thorpe is frustrating his attempts to get a new one.
所以这一切本都无关紧要。
So this would all be nothing.
如果不是因为两件事，这根本无足轻重。
This would be immaterial were it not for two things.
杰里米·索普在自由党内的声望正在上升，同时，随着英国相对衰落的趋势日益明显，六十年代英国的政治氛围也变得愈发紧张。
Jeremy Thorpe's star is rising within the Liberal Party, but also politics itself is becoming more and more febrile in sixties Britain as sort of Britain's relative decline becomes more and more apparent.
换句话说，自由党从上世纪五十年代的一个笑柄，正逐渐在政治舞台上扮演越来越重要的角色。
So in other words, the Liberal Party from being this joke in the 1950s is going to assume a bigger and bigger sort of role on the stage.
这意味着索普本人将成为一个更加公开的人物。
And that means that Thorpe himself is going to become much more of a public figure.
而事实正是如此。
And that's what happens.
他成为了自由党的领袖。
He becomes leader of the Liberal Party.
所以杰里米·索普成为了自由党的领袖。
So he so so Jeremy Thorpe becomes leader of the Liberal Party.
这发生在同性恋非罪化之前还是之后？同性恋非罪化是1967年吧？
Is that before or after the decriminalization of homosexuality, which is '67?
是的，就在之前。
Yeah, it's just before.
所以他在1967年1月成为自由党领袖，但同性恋非罪化我认为是稍晚一点才发生的。
So he becomes leader of the Liberal Party in January 1967, but homosexuality is decriminalised, I think, little later.
不过，这其实并不重要。
Now, that's that doesn't really matter.
重要的是，这种污名依然存在。
What matters is that the the stigma is still there.
对于那些成长过程中一直生活在阴影中、从事被视作非法性生活的普通人来说，我认为仅仅法律变了，并不会让人欢呼雀跃。
And for people, I think, who've grown up as it were, you know, people who spent so long as it were in the shadows leading illicit sex lives or lives that are perceived to be illicit.
我不认为法律一改变，事情就会变得一片欢呼。
I don't think just because the law has changed, you know, it becomes kind of hurrah.
我可能说得有点刻薄，但年轻听众能体会到当时有多歧视吗？
I can be mean, is it hard for maybe younger listeners to appreciate just how racism it was?
我的意思是，这种变化令人震惊。
I mean, it's astonishing change.
这是社会的巨大变革。
It's astonishing societal change.
这可能是她一生中最大的变化之一，汤姆。
Well, it's probably one of the biggest in her lifetime, Tom.
我想这可能是最重大的道德与文化变革之一，不是吗？
I would imagine it's probably the single biggest kind of moral cultural change, isn't it?
甚至在我们成长的七十年代，这种污名化程度依然极其严重。
Extent to which it was utterly stigmatized even when we were growing up in kind of seventies.
即使同性恋已经完全合法，偏见依然存在。
So when it was when homosexuality was was perfectly legal, there was still the stigma.
对于像索普这样年长一两代的人来说，他每天仿佛头顶着一个巨大的箭头，总担心有一天会被人们发现。
And for somebody like Thorpe, you know, a generation or two older, that it must have felt almost like every day he was, you know, he was walking around with a kind of giant arrow over his head and that one day people are gonna notice.
而一旦被发现，一切就完了。
And then that would be the end of everything.
这一定极其可怕。
I mean, it must have been utterly terrifying.
因此，诺曼·斯科特对他日益频繁的索求，成了他焦虑的根源。
So that is what makes Norman Scott's increasingly importunate demands on him a cause of anxiety.
随着索普在自由党内地位攀升，成为领袖，并进入七十年代——这段时期政治动荡剧烈，他的要求也变得越来越频繁。
These demands are becoming more and more importunate the higher that Thorpe rises up the Liberal Party, becomes leader, and then going into the seventies, it's a period of immense political turmoil.
而索普是个关键人物。
And Thorpe is a player.
是的
Yeah.
索普不仅仅处于边缘。
Thorpe He's he's not just on the periphery.
他有可能最终进入政府，因为权力平衡意味着自由党可能上台并参与联合执政。
He's someone who might actually end up in the government because the balance of power means that the Liberals might come in and take part in the coalition.
没错。
So exactly.
所以，我的意思是，对那些有点过时的自由党支持者们说声抱歉，但到了1974年，这个曾经只是个笑谈的政党突然掌握了权力平衡，而索普——这个一直驾驶着这辆破旧马车的人——竟然有可能坐上最高谈判桌。
So suddenly this I mean, no offense to kind of antiquated Liberals listening, but suddenly the slight joke party from the fifties, certainly by 1974, could hold the balance of power and Thorpe, this sort of bounder who's, you know, been basically driving this rickety old vehicle, suddenly, you know, he could have a place at the top table.
而且对索普来说，他是个非常风趣的人。
And and the thing is for Thorpe, he's a very funny man.
他是个花花公子。
He's a dandy.
他很受欢迎。
He's popular.
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他比另外两位政党领袖泰德·希思和哈罗德·威尔逊都要年轻。
He's younger than the other two party leaders, Ted Heath and Howard Wilson.
他们俩在人们看来都有点老派、土气。
They both look a bit kind of shop soil to people.
你知道，他们一直在和工会领袖没完没了地谈判，而且
You know, they've been sort of endless negotiations with union leaders and, you know
把他们都称为矿工吧。
Call them all pit.
是的。
Yeah.
他们不断出现在新闻里，向全国发布坏消息，比如电力要被切断之类的。
Constantly going on the news and sort of making broadcast to the nation with bad news that the power's gonna be cut off or something.
而索普很年轻。
And Thorpe is young.
他作风张扬。
He's flamboyant.
他很有趣。
He's funny.
是的。
Yeah.
人们说，他是个挺时髦的人。
People say, well, he's a pretty hat.
确实如此。
They do.
我喜欢他。
I like him.
我的意思是，谁会不喜欢一个戴帽子的人呢？
I mean, who doesn't like a man with
一顶帽子？
a hat?
也许吧。
Maybe.
嗯，除了道德松散之外，但是
Well, apart from loose morals, but
约翰·F·肯尼迪。
John F Kennedy.
他是第一位在就职典礼上不戴帽子的总统，
He he was the first president not to wear a hat at his inauguration,
我认为是这样。
I believe.
据说，他一夜之间毁掉了所有帽子，因为他不想让帽子弄乱他那头漂亮的头发。
Supposedly, he he destroyed hats overnight because he he didn't want them to to he didn't want a hat to mess up his nice hair.
好吧。
Okay.
而且我觉得这
And I think that was
恰如其分地被称为道德松散，这会得到认可的。
aptly named loose morals would would approve of.
是的。
Yeah.
所以不管怎样，斯科特现在一直纠缠不休。
So anyway, so Scott is all the time now badgering.
抱歉。
Sorry.
约瑟夫已经把他的名字改成了斯科特。
Joseph has changed his name to Scott.
这是一件奇怪又令人困惑的事。
That's one strange, confusing thing.
所以他一直向索普索要钱，还问，为什么他不回我的信？
So he's all the time badgering Thorpe for money and for, you know, why doesn't he respond to my letters?
为什么他不回……我认为，如果相信检方在索普审判中的陈述，正是在这一点上，索普决定只有一个解决办法。
Why doesn't and it's at that point, I think, that if the the account of the prosecution at Thorpe's trial is to believe, it's at that point that Thorpe decides there's only one solution.
他必须杀了他。
He's gonna have to kill him.
对的。
Right.
也许我们该休息一下
And maybe we should take a break
那儿也该休息。
there too.
我们绝对应该休息一下。
We should absolutely take a break.
所以，自由党领袖杰里米·索普，这位上世纪七十年代中期英国可能的造王者，或许已经决定需要杀害自己的情人。
So Jeremy Thorpe, leader of the Liberal Party, the potential kingmaker in mid seventies Britain may possibly have decided that he needs to murder his lover.
别走开。
Don't don't go away.
广告后我们马上回来。
We'll be back after the break.
大家好，欢迎回到《历史其余部分》。
Hello, welcome back to the Rest is History'.
我们正在谈论杰里米·索普丑闻。
We are talking the Jeremy Thorpe scandal.
当我们为了广告时间离开时，多米尼克为我们做了完美的铺垫。
When we left you for the commercial break Dominic had set us up beautifully.
多米尼克，杰里米·索普据称策划除掉诺曼·诺曼·斯科特的阴谋。
Dominic, Jeremy Thorpe's supposed alleged plot to have Norman Norman Scott done away with.
我为刚才差点笑出来而道歉。
And I apologize for almost laughing there.
这真是件可怕的事。
It's a terrible thing.
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
但这就是这个故事奇怪的地方。
But this is the weird thing about this story.
既黑暗又滑稽，又很悲剧，不是吗？
Both blackly comic and tragic, isn't it?
是的。
Yes.
好的。
Okay.
所以，给我讲讲接下来发生了什么。
So so talk us through what happens.
他的计划是什么？
What what are his plans?
事情是这样的，到了六十年代末，索普已经拉拢了几个帮凶参与其中。
So what's happened is at the end of the sixties, Thorpe has been he he's got a couple of sort of cronies involved in this.
他说，你知道吗，这个家伙一直纠缠我，就是不肯放过我。
And he said, you know, I'm being hassled by this bloke who's he won't leave me alone.
他到处乱跑。
He's going around.
他甚至，斯科特甚至给索普的母亲写了一封信，说，正如你所知，杰里米和我有过一段同性恋关系。
He's even Scott has even written a letter to Thorpe's mother saying, as you know, Jeremy and I have had a homosexual relationship.
他引诱了我，诸如此类的事情。
He seduced me and all this sort of stuff.
所以他真的在困扰着索普。
So he's really plaguing Thorpe.
而索普有两个亲信。
And Thorpe has two cronies.
其中一人叫大卫·霍姆斯，算是自由党的跟班；另一人是自由党议员彼得·贝塞尔，他是个非常可疑的人物，最终因欺诈逃往国外，在加利福尼亚定居。
One is a guy called David Holmes, who's a kind of Liberal flunky, and the other is a is a Liberal MP called Peter Bessel, who is a very dodgy person who ends up fleeing the country for fraud and settling in California.
索普决定拉拢的正是这两个人。
And these are the two men that Thorpe decides to involve.
他说，你们能不能基本上用钱打发掉斯科特？
And he says, can you basically pay Scott off?
但斯科特不肯闭嘴。
But Scott won't shut up.
所以他开始进行这些对话，索普说，我认为该做的就是杀了他。
So he starts to have these conversations where Thorpe says, well, I think the thing to do is just to kill him.
我们应该安排除掉他。
We should arrange to to murder him.
后来，索普说，这其实都只是个玩笑。
And now Thorpe says later, well, like, this was all just a joke.
我的意思是，有一次，贝塞尔声称索普说过，这还不如射杀一只病狗，而事实上，那只狗最终确实死了。
I mean, at one point, he says he Bessel claims that Thorpe said it would be no no worse than shooting a sick dog, which given that they did, the dog does end up dying.
是的。
Yes.
我认为这个细节很可能是编造的。
It seems I think that's a detail that's probably invented.
但无论如何，据我所知，索普提出了三个计划。
But anyway, that so there are three schemes, I think, as far as I understand it, that Thorpe suggested.
其中一个计划是，他的朋友大卫·霍姆斯伪装成一名德国商人，然后在德文郡的一家酒吧里扭断斯科特的脖子。
One is that his friend David Holmes should disguise himself as a German businessman and then break Scott's neck in a pub in Devon or something.
这行不通，因为霍姆斯从未——我的意思是，我认为他没做过那种事。
That was no good because Holmes had never I mean, I don't think he did that.
扭断某人的脖子。
Broke someone's neck.
没有。
No.
我不认为
I don't think
他有必要公平对待自由党。
he had a to be fair to the Liberal Party.
所以这是第一个计划。
So that's idea one.
第二个计划是，霍姆斯会引诱斯科特去酒吧，毒死他的饮料，然后把他的尸体扔进埃克斯穆尔的一个矿井里。
The idea two is that Holmes is going to lure Scott to the pub, poison his drink so that he dies, and then throw his body down a mine shaft on Exmoor.
是的。
Yeah.
福尔摩斯说这行不通，因为如果
Holmes says that won't work because if
他，福尔摩斯。
he Holmes.
我觉得这会给整个事情增添一层额外的怪异和讽刺感。
Thought This will add some extra level of weirdness and parody to the whole thing.
嗯，福尔摩斯很合理地指出，我该怎么让这招生效呢？
Well, Holmes reason quite reasonably says, how I I know how will that work?
比如，如果我在酒吧里毒死他的饮料，他就会死在酒吧里。
Like, if I poison his drink in the pub, it'll die in the pub.
每个人都会看到。
Everybody will see.
我没法把他的尸体偷偷运出去，再扔进矿井。
I can't smuggle his body out and throw it down a mine.
所以这根本行不通。
So that's no a no go.
索普说，好吧。
And Thorpe says, fine.
把他引诱到佛罗里达州的沼泽地，让短吻鳄把他吃掉。
Lure him to the to Florida, into the Everglades, and have him eaten by alligators.
这其实有点像汤姆·夏普，对吧？
So It's like Tom Sharp, actually, isn't it?
这可不是《 Carry On 》系列。
It's not a carry on.
这就是汤姆。
It's it's a Tom.
没错。
It is.
完全对。
It's exact.
你看，关键就在这里，你可以说索普其实是在开玩笑，因为你能想象出这是一场在喝酒时发生的对话。
You see, that's the point at which you can say, Thorpe might well say I was joking because you can kind of see how that is a conversation that with over drinks Yeah.
这有点失控了。
That's kind of got out of hand.
所以他们一直在谈论这件事，但好一段时间都没什么实际进展。
So they talk about this, but nothing really happens for a while.
然后我想你到了1974年，突然之间索普不再仅仅是个新星。
And then I guess you get to 1974, and suddenly Thorpe is not just a rising star.
突然间，他已经跻身其中了。
Suddenly, he's he's kind of in there.
他登上了头版头条，因为首相爱德华·希思宣布举行大选，而当时国家局势一片混乱：矿工罢工，电力中断。
He's on the front pages because Ted Heath, the prime minister, has called an election with with the country absolutely going to pot and the miners out on strike and the lights going out.
爱德华·希思举行大选是为了获得新的授权，但结果完全失败了。
Ted Heath Heath calls an election to get a new mandate, and it completely goes wrong.
出现了悬浮议会，希思开始与索普进行联合执政谈判。
There's a hung parliament, and Heath there there has coalition talks with Thorpe.
而且这种讨论并不是说索普会成为内政大臣。
And this talk isn't that that Thorpe is gonna become home secretary.
此时，索普将成为内政大臣。
Thorpe would become home section at this point.
他将负责自己的起诉。
He'd be responsible for his own prosecution.
军情五处。
MI five.
军情五处有一份关于索普的档案，厚达一英寸，全是这些内容，因为斯科特一直在到处宣扬。
Have a file on Thorpe, you know, an inch thick with all these because Scott has been telling everybody.
斯科特在伦敦四处奔走，给人们写信、到处讲述，拦住别人说：杰里米·索普是我的情人，他背叛了我，还拿走了我的国民保险卡。
Scott has been going around London, writing letters to people and telling people and buttonholing them and saying, Jeremy Thorpe was my lover, and he has betrayed me, and he's got my national insurance card.
爱德华·希思不知道这件事吗？
Has has Edward Heath not aware of this?
我想，大多数政客都觉得这完全疯了。
I think you see, most politicians think this is just completely mad.
他们不相信斯科特。
They don't believe Scott.
他们觉得斯科特完全是编造的。
They think Scott is making it all up.
他们知道索普是同性恋，但并不认为斯科特那些事真有什么实质内容。
They know that Thorpe is gay, but they don't think, you know, that the Scott stuff really amounts to anything.
他们觉得，至少在那个阶段，这根本算不上什么，汤姆。
They think it's just because at that stage, it doesn't really amount to anything, Tom.
我的意思是，你知道，这几乎反而让他们显得不错。
I mean, it's, you know, it almost reflects well on them.
你可以说，他们并不认为这件事就完全把索普排除在体面社会之外。
You could say they don't think this debars Thorpe completely from, you know, polite society.
他们只是觉得，杰里米嘛，大家都知道他私生活混乱。
They just think, well, Jeremy, everybody knows he's got a rackety private life.
这个家伙把他的生活搞得神神秘秘，实在太不公平了。
It's completely unfair that this guy's making his life a mystery.
那个没有策划杀害他
He who has not plotted to kill his
嗯，现阶段他们还不知道。
Well, they don't know at this stage.
男朋友把他在佛罗里达扔给短吻鳄，这算是投出了第一票。
Boyfriend by throwing him to an alligator in Florida cast the first stone.
他们不知道在那个阶段已经发生了这件事。
They don't know that that stage this has happened.
所以1974年2月到3月，索普进行了联合谈判，但没有成功。
So February 19 March 1974, Thorpe has these coalition talks, and they don't work out.
因此他没有进入政府。
So he doesn't go into government.
相反，哈罗德·威尔逊回来了，这位工党领袖成为了首相。
Instead, Harold Wilson comes back, a labor leader, and he becomes prime minister.
然后在1974年10月举行了第二次选举。
Then there's a second election in October 1974.
索普在2月获得了20%的选票，他希望在10月取得重大突破。
Thorpe has won 20 of the vote in February, and he's hoping for a big breakthrough in October.
他的一个重要策略——虽然不是他主要的战略家或夸大其词的部分——但其中一个花招是，他打算租一艘气垫船，沿着西南地区巡游。
And his big well, not his big strategist and exaggeration, but one of his gimmicks is he's gonna hire a hovercraft and travel around the Southwest in this hovercraft.
因为气垫船能传达一种...
Because hovercraft get conveys a sense of
现代感。
Modernity.
未来、现代性、白色热力技术。
Future, modernity, white heat technology.
1974年，英国一片混乱。
When Britain is is is is in Britain is in a shambles in 1974.
IRA的炸弹在酒吧里爆炸。
You got IRA bombs going off in pubs.
通货膨胀飙升。
Inflation is through the roof.
工会正在罢工。
Trade union is out on strike.
如果你有一艘 hovercraft，那就表明你掌控着未来。
If you've got a hovercraft that shows you own the future.
这有点像《神秘博士》。
It's kind of doctor who.
你就是未来，但 hovercraft 却抛锚了。
You're you're you're you're the future and the and the hovercraft breaks down.
是的。
It does.
英国制造的 hovercraft 之类的。
British made hovercraft or something.
它就像抛锚了一样。
It's like breaks down.
索普不得不在媒体面前涉水上岸。
The Thorpe has to wade ashore in the eyes of the press.
他的竞选活动也类似。
And his campaign kind of goes similarly.
你知道，今年早些时候人们投票给自由党多少有点找乐子的意思，但现在我认为，这更像是工党和保守党之间的一个选择。
You know, people have had their fun kind of voting for the Liberals earlier in the year, but now it becomes much more of a choice, I think, between Labour and the Tories.
自由党的得票率下降了，给人一种气球泄了气的感觉。
The Liberal vote dips, and there's a sort of sense of a deflated balloon.
大约就在这个时候，我的意思是，我并不完全——我认为没有人完全确定确切的时间线，因为这当然是有争议的。
And it's round about this point that, I mean, I'm not entire I don't think anyone is entirely sure of the precise chronology because, of course, it's disputed.
但大约就在这个时候，他们基本上启动了谋杀计划。
But it's about this point that basically they press go on the murder plan.
这并不奇怪，因为索普认为我现在已经输不起了。
And not surprisingly, because Thorpe thinks I've got it all to lose now.
你知道，我现在身处顶级联赛，不能让斯科特在我身边晃悠。
You know, I'm in the big league and I can't have Scott hanging around.
我们得把他除掉。
We've just got to get rid of him.
所以就在那个时候，我实际上做了一个图表来提醒自己，因为这件事太
So it's at that point that and I've actually made a chart to remind myself because it's so
我觉得这是第一次。
This I think this is a first.
我觉得，嗯，我们已经讨论过所有这些话题了。
I think Well You know, we've done all these topics.
我觉得我们以前从未做过图表。
I don't think we've ever had a chart before.
没有。
No.
所以我有
So I've got
听好了。
Listen.
这是第一次。
This is the first.
多米尼克正在公布第一个。
Dominic is unveiling the first.
其余的就成了历史图表。
The rest is history chart.
那么，接下来会发生什么？
So so what happens?
索普对霍姆斯说，他的助手名叫霍姆斯，恰如其分，他说：你必须马上解决这件事。
Thorpe gets he says to Holmes, his mace, the aptly named Holmes, he says, you have to sort this out now.
你必须除掉诺曼·斯科特。
You have to kill Norman Scott.
他还在不断给我写信骚扰。
He's still pestering me with his letters.
这简直是国家保险的无理要求，而我想当首相。
This is bloody national insurance demands, and I wanna be prime minister.
所以霍姆斯，他这辈子从未安排过任何暗杀。
So Holmes, he's never arranged a hit in his life.
他从未安排过任何类似的事情。
He's never arranged anything even vaguely approaching.
我的意思是，我们当中谁有呢？
I mean, which of us has?
于是他请来了一位来自南威尔士的地毯销售员帮忙，他认识这个人。
So he enlists the help of a sec of a carpet salesman from South Wales who he knows.
我不知道七十年代地毯销售行业是不是特别暴力，但这个人叫约翰·勒梅西耶。
I don't know if the world of selling carpets is particularly violent in the seventies, but this guy is called John LeMessurier.
好的。
Okay.
这对任何人来说
Which to anyone
他是英国人。
He's British.
是的。
Yeah.
看《爸爸的陆军》。
Watch dad's army.
是的。
Yeah.
演员约翰·勒梅西蒂尔饰演威尔逊军士。
The actor John LeMessurier plays sergeant Wilson.
没错。
He is.
他是当时英国电视界的重要人物之一。
Who was one of the big
让他主演。
star him.
但这部剧是
But it's
在七十年代的英国电视屏幕上并非小制作。
not small screen in the a British small screen in the seventies.
但这部剧是
But it's
不是他。
not him.
是另一个有着同样非常罕见名字的人。
It's somebody else with the same very uncommon name.
约翰·勒·梅苏里尔说，他根本不知道如何策划谋杀，但他认识一个人，可能知道，那个人叫乔治·迪肯，他向酒吧和酒店提供水果机。
John Le Mesurer says, well, he doesn't know anything about arranging murders, but he knows a man who might, who's a man called George Deacon, who supplies fruit machines to pubs and hotels.
所以， basically 就是老虎机。
So, you know, slot machines, basically.
现在，老虎机这个行业，你知道的，根本不是给胆小怕事的人待的地方。
Now, the slot machine world was actually, you know, not no place for kind of shrinking violets.
这个行业腐败严重，还存在一些见不得光的势力。
There was a lot of corruption and it was there was slightly shady elements to the slot machine world.
所以这并不是完全荒谬的。
So this is not entirely ridiculous.
所以现在我们离索普已经隔了几步了。
So now we've got a few stages away from Thorpe.
我认为迪肯是在酒吧里接近他的。
Deacon, I think he approaches him in the pub or something.
然后他找到了一位潜在的杀手。
He he then finds a prospective hitman.
这个人自称安德鲁或杰诺，叫杰诺·牛顿。
This man is a man called Andrew or Geno, as he called himself, Geno Newton.
牛顿并不是理想的刺客，因为他从未开过枪，实际上他是一名飞行员。
Newton, he's not an ideal assassin because he's never shot anybody, and he's actually an airline pilot.
但他基本上说，我会干的。
But, basically, he says, I'll do it.
你知道的，我会干的。
You know, I'll do it.
他们说会付给他一万英镑，我想是这样，这是一笔不少的钱。
And they say they'll pay him £10,000, I think it is, which is a lot of money.
他现在的薪水是六千英镑吗？
Is his salaries now, like, £6,000?
是的
Yeah.
没错
Exactly.
这说明了他被提供的报酬有多高。
So that tells you how much money he's being offered.
后来，他们说，哦，我们根本没付钱让他去杀他。
So later on, they said, oh, we never paid him to shoot him.
我们只是付钱让他去勒索他。
We just paid him to blackmail him.
但他指出，如果只是为了勒索，你不会给我这么多钱。
But as he pointed out, you wouldn't give me that much money if it was just for blackmailing.
你给我的钱比我的飞行员工资还多。
And you're giving me more than my salary as an airline pilot.
飞行员的收入很高。
An airline pilot is well paid.
所以他打算干了。
So so he's gonna do it.
我的意思是，天知道他为什么答应了。
I mean, god knows why he said yes.
也许只是需要钱。
Maybe just needed the money.
我的意思是，他说：‘我愿意替你们杀了诺曼·斯科特。’
I mean, he says, I'll I'll kill Norman Scott for you.
所以1975年，他前往德文郡、萨默塞特郡一带，也就是边境地区。
So in the 1975, he goes off to sort of Devon, Somerset, sort of borderlands.
明希德。
Minehead.
是的。
Yeah.
明希德。
Minehead.
没错。
Exactly.
他遇到了诺曼·斯科特。
And he meets Norman Scott.
你知道他用什么故事把诺曼·斯科特引出来吗？
And you know what his story is to lure Norman Scott out?
他说，有人想杀你。
He says, somebody's trying to kill you.
我会保护你。
I'll protect you.
太棒了。
Brilliant.
我的意思是，这主意太没创意了。
I mean, it's very unimaginative.
太微妙了。
Very subtle.
是的
Yeah.
说那里还有另一个猿人。
To say somebody there's another ape man.
是的
Yeah.
奇怪的是，斯科特居然信了。
Weirdly, Scott kinda goes along with it.
有一回，牛顿对他说：听着，我们去兜个风吧。
And at one point, Newton says to him, well, listen, let's go for a drive.
我的意思是，这大约是
I mean, it's about
但奇怪的不是诺曼·斯科特是个偏执的幻想家，而是他最疯狂的妄想竟然真的成了真。
But it's not the odd thing that Norman Scott is a paranoid fantasist whose worst paranoid fantasies actually turn out to be true.
是的
Yeah.
但这也看不出是一个 paranoid fantasist，当杀手最终出现时他竟然没认出来。
But it also doesn't seem a paranoid fantasy fantasist who doesn't recognize when the hitman finally pitches up.
是的。
Yeah.
所以牛顿说，我会带你开车，从一个叫库姆马丁的地方到一个叫波洛克的地方。
So Newton says, I'll take you on the drive and from a place called Coom Martin to a place called Pollock.
所以这条路会经过埃克斯穆尔。
So it's kind of over Exmoor.
旅程一开始，牛顿就被吓到了，因为斯科特带了他的狗，那是一只名叫林卡的大丹犬。
And Newton is thrown at the outset of the journey because Scott has brought his dog with him, who's this great Dane called Rinka.
他们出发了，牛顿真的紧张极了，我的意思是，换谁都会紧张。
They set off, and and Newton is really nerve I mean, you'd be nervous anyway.
你要去杀一个人，而且你从未杀过人。
You're gonna kill somebody, and you've never done it.
他带着一把古董毛瑟手枪，是一种德国战时型号的手枪。
He's got an antique Mauser pistol, a German kind of wartime pistol or something.
他对狗过敏什么的。
He's allergic to dogs or something.
他害怕，他
He's afraid He
他非常害怕狗。
hates has a horror of dogs.
是的。
Yes.
所以斯科特带了他的狗，而牛顿很紧张。
So Scott has brought his dog and neutronist.
你可以想象在那该死的荒野上开车。
You can imagine driving the car over the bloody moorland.
一片漆黑，可能还在下雨。
It's pitch black, probably raining.
出自《巴斯克维尔的猎犬》。
Out of the Baskervilles.
那就是狗。
And that's dog.
那是他的狗。
That's his dog.
你知道你得杀了这个人，可能还得把狗也杀了。
And you know you've got to kill this guy and probably the dog as well.
而且你从来没开过枪，你知道，你这辈子从来没杀过人。
And you've never shot, you know, you've never killed anyone before in your life.
他走到一半，突然慌了什么的。
He gets halfway and he sort of panics or something.
或者有人提议换司机，于是他们把车停了下来。
Or there's some talk about swapping drivers and they pull over.
狗一见他们停车，就以为该散步了，一下子跳出了车。
The dog assumes when they pull over that it's time to go for a walk and leaps out of the car.
于是斯科特下车去追狗，而杀手纽顿也下了车。
So Scott gets out after the dog and Newton, the hitman, he gets out as well.
他心想，天啊，我得做点什么。
And he thinks, Christ, I've got to do something.
所以他直接开枪打死了那只狗。
So he just shoots the dog, kills the dog.
我的意思是，这整个故事的悲剧就在于此。
I mean, that's the that's the tragedy of the whole story.
那只狗才是真正的受害者。
The dog is the real loser.
是的。
Yeah.
斯科特说：‘天哪，你开枪打死了我的狗。’
Scott says, oh my god, you've shot my dog.
你在干什么？
What are you doing?
你在干什么？
What are you doing?
牛顿，我的意思是，我们拇指上的这个细节太惊人了。
Newton I mean, this is an incredible detail on our thumb.
他举起了枪。
He points the gun.
他把枪抵在斯科特的头上，扣动了扳机，但什么也没发生。
He puts it to Scott's head and pulls the trigger and nothing happens.
枪卡住了。
The gun jams.
于是牛顿直接回到车里开走了，这简直荒谬至极。
So Newton then just gets back in the car and drives off, which is which is ludicrous.
我的意思是，至少也该试着用拳头打死他什么的。
I mean, at least try to batter him to death or something.
别把他一个人丢在那里，旁边还有一条死狗。
Don't leave him there with the dead dog.
他就是这么做的。
That's what he does.
所以斯科特只是被这个家伙搭了一程车。
So Scott has, you know, he's just been taken for a lift by this bloke.
他的狗被枪杀了，然后那人就消失在迷雾中。
Is shot his dog and then driven off into the into the mist.
他得出了唯一合理的结论。
And he comes to the only obvious conclusion.
这件事是杰里米·索普安排的，事实确实如此。
This has been arranged by Jeremy Thorpe, which which it has.
谁干的？
Who has it?
嗯，确实是。
Well, it was.
接下来的几个月里，他四处奔波，主要就是出庭作证，并向任何愿意听的人讲述这件事。
This is the and then he goes around for the next few months basically making court appearances and telling everyone who will listen.
你知道，杰里米·索普曾试图暗杀我。
I have been, you know, Jeremy Thorpe has tried to assassinate.
但很明显，这听起来太疯狂了，没人相信他。
But presumably it sounds so mad that nobody believes him.
根本没人相信这件事。
Nobody believes it at all.
那么，事情是怎么发展的呢？
Well, well, so how does it come?
事情到底是怎么发生的？
How does it come?
我的意思是，人们怎么会开始相信他呢？
I mean, how do people end up starting to believe him?
关于没人相信他这一点，政府其实是知道的。
So just on nobody believing him, the government know about it.
霍华德·威尔逊也知道这件事。
Howard Wilson knows about it.
但霍华德·威尔逊认为他被南非情报机构——也就是BOSS——陷害了。
But Howard Wilson thinks he's being thought he's being framed by the South African intelligence service who are called BOSS.
是的。
Yes.
好的。
Okay.
所以我们有一个来自安德鲁·哈里森的问题。
So we've got a question from Andrew Harrison.
BOSS真的参与其中了吗？
Were BOSS really involved?
所以，这个故事中最奇怪的部分就在这里。
So this is the really weird aspect to this story.
在二十世纪七十年代，英国的一切都出了问题。
In the nineteen seventies, everything everything had gone wrong for Britain.
因此，奇怪的是，尤其是那些本该更清楚的人——政府高层人士——都觉得这一定是由于一些神秘的情报人员所策划的邪恶阴谋造成的。
And so there was this sort of general sense, weirdly, particularly among the people who should have known better, the top of the sort of governments and stuff, that this must because of be because of evil conspiracies by sort of shadowy intelligence agents and stuff.
所以，哈罗德·威尔逊，就是我们在1974年看到重新掌权的工党首相，他的一切都不顺，他认为自己遭到了英国军情五处和南非秘密情报机构BOSS的阴谋陷害。
So Howard Wilson, is the Labour prime minister who we saw coming back to power in 1974, everything is going wrong for him, and he thinks he has been plotted against by MI five and also by the South African secret service boss.
我是说，谁会把自己的情报机构叫做BOSS呢？
I mean, who would call would you why would you call your secret service boss?
这简直和'幽灵党'一样绝了。
It's almost as good as Spectre.
是的。
Yes.
虽然它是国家安全局，但即便如此，我是说，这名字起得真够可以的。
Like, it's the Bureau of State Security, but even so, I mean, what a name.
总之，他认为BOSS正在密谋对付他。
Anyway, he thinks Boss is plotting against him.
所以霍华德·威尔逊对他的内阁大臣们说，所有关于索普的谣言都是BOSS制造的。
And so Howard Wilson is saying to his cabinet ministers, hearing all these rumors about Thorpe, they're all created by Boss.
BOSS确实与此事有关。
Boss have are involved with this.
而BOSS也确实知情。
And Boss do, in fact, know about it.
他们讨厌索普，因为他一直反对种族隔离制度。
They hate Thorpe because he's been campaigning against apartheid.
但他们并没有捏造这个故事。
But they haven't created this story.
他们只是偶然得知，并对此感到欣喜，还希望借此打击他。
They've just sort of picked it up and are delighted by it and hoping to use it against him.
因此，人们开始相信索普故事的方式是，斯科特开始把他的信件交给报社。
So the way it starts to look more the way people start to believe the Thorpe story is that Scott starts to give his letters to the newspapers.
他手里有一批信件，你知道的。
He's got this cache of letters, you see.
这正是他手中最重要的证据之一——那些证明他和索普确实有过关系的信件。
That's the one of the big things that he's got the letters that show that he and Thorpe did have a relationship.
但此外，索普的老朋友彼得·贝塞尔也搬到了加利福尼亚，他同样开始向报社爆料。
But, also, Thorpe's old crony, Peter Bessel, who's moved to California, he starts talking to the newspapers as well.
于是，现在出现了一场媒体狂欢，伦敦舰队街的报纸争相挖掘更耸人听闻的指控。
So now you've got a feeding frenzy, a Fleet Street feeding frenzy, as the newspapers are competing for ever more lurid allegations.
这个故事难以评估的一个原因是，我们不知道、也永远无法知道，这些轶事中有多少是讲述者为了卖报纸而编造出来的。
And one of the things that makes this story very hard to assess is we don't know and we'll never know how much some of these anecdotes have been concocted to sell you know, by the people telling them to sell papers.
例如，那句话——‘这简直就像射杀一只病狗。’
For example, the line, it's no better than shooting a sick dog.
是的。
Yep.
我认为贝塞尔编了这句话，因为这句太精彩了，无论是电报、邮件还是其他渠道，都会争相传播。
I think Bessel made that up because it was such a great line, and he could you know, the the telegraph or the mail or whoever it was would run with
它们。
them.
但这也提醒了我们，在互联网时代之前，真相要花这么长时间才慢慢浮出水面。
But, I mean, it's a kind of intriguing reminder of the pre Internet era that it takes this long to spill out.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yes.
而现在，这一切会在几个小时内全部曝光，对吧？
And now it would all be out in a in a couple of hours, wouldn't it?
是的。
Yeah.
所以确实需要很长时间，你说得对。
So it does take very you're right.
这需要非常长的时间。
It takes a a very long time.
所以，1975年发生了那次企图谋杀，但直到1976年5月，索普才辞去自由党领袖职务，因为《星期日泰晤士报》刊登了他写给诺曼·斯科特的一些信件。
So the the the sort of attempted murder is the 1975, but then it's not till May 1976 that Thorpe steps down as leader of the Liberal Party because the Sunday Times had printed some of his letters to Norman Scott.
然后，这个案件又持续了几年，报纸上不断出现一个又一个的揭露，像水滴一样缓慢而持续地流出。
And then the case rumbles on for a few more years, and there's kind of revelation after revelation, the slow drip drip drip in the newspapers.
还有一件事我本该提一下，那就是推动这个故事的关键人物之一——另一位极具魅力的角色，虽然在英国这场丑闻中似乎没怎么出现过，那就是讽刺作家奥伯伦·沃赫。
And and the other thing that we I should have mentioned is that one of the key people in pushing the story, who's another great character who actually didn't really appear so much, I think, in a very English scandal, is the satirist, Oberon Waugh.
他是伊夫林·沃的儿子，也就是《昔日重来》小说作者的儿子。
So he's Evelyn Waugh's son, the son of the brideshead revisited novelist.
他住在西南地区，对吧？
He lives down in the West Country, doesn't he?
他住在西南地区。
He lives in the West Country.
他认识索普，为《私家侦探》杂志撰写一篇虚构的日记。
He knows of Thorpe, and he writes a diary for Private Eye magazine in which he makes stuff up.
他写了一篇极其保守的日记，声称自己昨晚与玛格丽特公主共进晚餐，两人一致认为所有罢工者都应被当场枪决，诸如此类的话。
So he writes this incredibly reactionary diary in which he sort of says, I went to dinner with Princess Margaret last night, and we agree that all strikers should be shot on sight or something of this kind.
是的。
Yeah.
但在他七十年代的日记中，他对索普怀有真正的敌意。
But in the course of his diary of the seventies, he has a real vendetta against Thorpe.
我的意思是，他给自己树了一个敌人。
I mean, he just caused himself a vendetta.
他说索普是个伪君子和骗子。
He says Thorpe is a hypocrite and a liar.
他有一些令人作呕且令人反感的个人习惯。
He has disgusting and revolting personal habits.
他尤其对林卡被杀这件事感到愤怒。
And he's particularly upset about the killing of Rinka.
是的。
Yeah.
所以当他听说了那只狗的事后，他说这正好证实了我对索普的所有怀疑。
So when he hears about the dog, he says, this just confirms everything I've ever suspected about Thorpe.
索普是个杀狗凶手。
Thorpe is a dog murderer.
而且真的，在英国，再也没有比‘杀狗凶手’更严重的指控了。
He And really, I mean, in England, there could be no worse accusation than a dog murderer.
如果被杀的是斯科特而不是狗，这个故事就不会这么有吸引力了。
Killing of the dog rather than if it was Scott who was murdered, it wouldn't be such a good story.
没错。
No.
这是一个更好的故事，因为被杀害的是那只无辜的狗——林卡。
It's a better story because it's the dog, Rinka, the innocent dog who is who is killed.
在那之前，当时的皇家检察署之类的机构一直在收集证据。
So before all this time, the the sort of Crown Prosecution Service or whatever they they were in the seventies are sort of amassing information.
他们决定指控索普、霍尔姆斯、水果机商人乔治·迪金、地毯销售商勒梅苏里尔、牛顿，指控他们所有人合谋谋杀。
They decide they are going to charge Thorpe, Holmes, the the fruit machine man, George Deakin, the carpet salesman, Le Mesurer, the airline pilot, Newton, they're gonna charge them all with conspiracy to murder.
但这一指控直到下一次大选——1979年的大选之后才发生。
But that doesn't happen until after the next general election, the nineteen seventy nine general election.
这给了讽刺作家奥伯·沃一个机会，让他与索普竞争。
So that gives Orber on War, the satirist, the chance to stand against Thorpe.
代表狗党参选。
Running for the dog party.
是的。
Yeah.
狗爱好者党。
The dog lovers party.
狗狗爱好者党，口号是：为你家狗狗争取更好的待遇。
Dog lovers party with its slogan, a better deal for your dog.
为你家狗狗争取更好的待遇。
Better deal for your dog.
然后，他的竞选纲领被法律禁止发布，因为法官表示这会对审判造成偏见，因为奥伯·沃一直在为狗狗发声并反对索普。
And then so his election manifesto was suppressed by law because it was regard it was the judge said it would be prejudicial to the trial because all born war was campaigning for dogs and against Thorpe.
他说，狗狗在英国一直遭受不公待遇。
He said dogs had had a very bad deal in Britain.
索普一直在四处杀害它们。
Thorpe had been going around killing them.
法官不让他公开这些言论。
And and the judge wouldn't let him public.
所以他赢得了79票，沃。
So he won 79 votes war.
索普输了，对吧？
And Thorpe Thorpe loses, doesn't he?
但实际上，考虑到各种因素，差距出人意料地小
But actually, by a surprisingly small amount considering
是的
Yeah.
在某种程度上，索普在他当地的支持率非常高
There's tons of support for Thorpe in his local manner, as it were.
说到对同性恋态度的转变，许多选民根本不在意这一点
I mean, on the theme of of changing attitudes to homosexuality, lots of voters don't seem to have worried about that at all.
嗯，索普是已婚的
So Well, Thorpe is married.
索普结过两次婚
Thorpe has been twice married.
所以很多人，我认为，根本就不相信那些事
So a lot of people, I think, didn't just didn't believe it.
而且汤姆，这是一种奇怪的现象，我觉得很多选民对索普产生了情感依恋，他们就是坚决不相信他会做出被指控的那些事
And it's that weird thing, Tom, where I think a lot of voters had formed an attachment to Thorpe, and they just simply refused to believe that he could have been guilty of any of the things that he was accused of.
但他输了。
But he loses.
是的。
Yeah.
但他确实输了。
But he does lose.
他输了。
He loses.
选举之后，他竟如此上台掌权，索普与另外三名共犯在高等法院受审。
And then after the election, sees him as such to come to power, Thorpe comes to trial with the three other conspirators in the High Court.
是的。
Yes.
对。
Right.
在老贝利法院。
In the Old Bailey.
在老贝利法院。
In the Old Bailey.
是的。
Yeah.
好吧。
And okay.
所以，这是因为英国另一个已经完全消失的传统，那就是那种滑稽的、守旧的、脱离现实的法官。
So so so because this is this is another aspect of Britain that has vanished completely, is the tradition of the the comically reactionary out of touch judge.
是坎特利大法官吗？
Lord justice Cantley, was it?
坎特利大法官。
Lord justice Cantley.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yes.
他基本上主持了这个案件，他的总结陈词明显偏袒索普，导致索普最终被无罪释放。
Who who basically presides over the case, and his summing up is is so weighted in Thorpe's favor that Thorpe gets acquitted.
是的，汤姆，你手边有那份资料吗？
Yeah, have you got it there, Tom?
我没有，但众所周知，后来彼得·库克对它进行了戏仿。他是资助《私家侦探》杂志的人，也是达德利·摩尔和彼得·库克组合的一员，还曾是《边缘之外》的成员，是英国喜剧界的伟大天才。
I haven't, but famously it then gets parodied by Peter Cook, who's the guy who funds Private Eye, part of Dudley Moore and Peter Cook, he was part of Beyond the Fringe, the great genius of British comedy.
他这段戏仿几乎堪称完美。
And he does this almost pitch perfect parody.
嗯，坎诺利曾这样描述斯科特。
Well, Cannoli had described Scott.
他在总结陈词中说道，索普先生，一位服务多年的公职人员。
He'd said in his his his summing up, he'd said, mister Thorpe, public servant of many years standing.
而斯科特，则是个寄生虫、食客、伪君子、同性恋，你知道，他完全是在给陪审团施加影响，而且，是的，正如你所说，彼得·库克把这一点演绎得精彩绝伦。
Scott, scrounger, parasite, hippocrats, homosexual, and sort of you know, he completely loaded the and, yeah, as you say, Peter Cook does this absolutely brilliantly.
那句著名的说法是：'自称吹奏粉红双簧管的人'。
Self confessed player of the pink oboe is the famous phrase.
是的。
Yeah.
意思是，他之所以做得这么好，是因为他巧妙地穿插了坎特利真正说过的话。
Mean, basically, what he does is the reason that's so good is that he basically interspersed with what Cantley genuinely had said.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为，也就是说，这可能是其中一个原因。
And I think, I mean, that's maybe that's one
也许这就是为什么，或许只是因为人到中年，英国喜剧如今显得不那么好笑了。
of the reasons why, maybe it's just middle age, British comedy doesn't seem quite as funny these days.
因为法官们不再那么风趣了。
It's because judges aren't as funny.
是的。
Yeah.
没什么可挑剔的。
Nothing to kick with.
建制派人物没那么好笑了，因为那时候的建制派确实是真正的建制派，你可以嘲笑他们。
Establishment figures aren't as funny because back then the establishment really was the establishment and you could laugh it.
而现在的建制派都跟年轻人打成一片了，所以不再那么一目了然地好笑。
Whereas now the establishment is all down with the kids, so they're not as instantly amusing.
不管怎样，杰里米·索普真是走运。
Anyway, so great for Jeremy Thorpe.
他被判无罪，但他的事业
He gets acquitted but his career
他的事业嘛，我觉得汤姆，他必须被判无罪，因为检方的案子几乎注定很薄弱。
His career is just I mean, had to be acquitted, think, Tom, because the prosecution case almost necessarily was quite flimsy.
全都是基于传闻。
It's all based on hearsay
好吧。
and Okay.
这是乔纳森·梅策尔问你一个问题。
So here's a question for you from Jonathan Metzer.
陪审团依据合理怀疑之外的标准宣告无罪，但综合当时和现在所有的证据来看，索普可能是有罪还是无罪？
The jury acquitted on beyond reasonable doubt test, but looking at all the evidence available in then then and now, was Thorpe probably guilty or innocent?
你怎么看？
What do you think?
嗯，我认为陪审团必须做出无罪判决，因为有一件事是确定的。
Well, think the jury had to have quit because the one thing Okay.
但这不是问题所在。
Well, that's not the that's not the question.
不是。
No.
关键的控方证人后来发现，根据他们与报纸的协议，如果索普被判有罪，他们将获得更多的报酬。
The the The witnesses, the key prosecution witnesses, it turned out that would, under their deals with the newspapers, they were due to get more money if the thought went down.
所以这显然非常值得玩味。
So I mean that obviously looks very interesting.
好吧，但这还不是我要问的问题。
Okay, but that's not quite the question.
所以也许他必须被判无罪，因为证据不足，或者因为有人干扰了证人，等等，但你认为索普是否资助过对诺曼·斯科特的谋杀企图？
So maybe he had to be acquitted because there wasn't the evidence or because people had been tampering with witnesses or whatever, but do you think that Thorpe did sponsor an attempt to kill Norman Scott?
是的。
Yes.
我认为是的。
I do.
我觉得他可能并没有真的想这么做，但我要告诉你一件真正令人震惊的事情，汤姆，我们之前完全没提到过，这正好让我分享一个我特别喜欢的细节。
I think he might not have really meant it, but the I tell you what's really what's a damning thing, Tom, which we haven't mentioned at all, and this is a chance for me to drop a a favorite fact in.
索普的关键点在于，他拿到了钱。
Thorpe, it's the fact that he gets the money.
所以他拿到了钱。
So he he gets the money.
他从一位名叫杰克·海伍德爵士的人那里筹到了资金，这位英国亿万富翁（或百万富翁）住在巴哈马，同时也是自由党的捐助者。
He raises the money from a man called Sir Jack Haywood, who's a British billionaire a British millionaire who's based in The Bahamas, but a a donor to the Liberal Party.
一些听众可能不知道，他是《更好》公司的董事长。
Now some listeners He's the chairman of The better.
他在二十世纪九十年代成为了狼队的老板。
He becomes the owner of Wolverhampton Wanderers in the nineteen nineties.
没错。
Exactly.
所以杰克·海伍德给了他这笔钱。
So Jack Hayward gives him this money.
基本上，不问任何问题。
Basically, no questions asked.
索普没有把这笔钱捐给自由党资金。
Thorpe doesn't give it to the Liberal Party funds.
他把钱存在一个单独的账户里。
He keeps it in a separate account.
而在这类事情中，通常要追查资金流向。
And as often in these cases, you follow the money.
他需要这笔钱的原因是，这笔钱最终将用于支付杀手安德鲁·纽森。
The reason he needs that money is because that money is destined for Andrew Newsom, the hitman.
我认为这才是真正可疑的地方。
And I think that's the really dodgy thing.
这就是决定性的证据。
That's the smoking gun.
是的，没错。
Yeah, exactly.
而且我
And I
我觉得实际上，汤姆，你能理解为什么索普会这样，我的意思是，你会觉得索普感到被困住了。
think actually, Tom, you know, you can understand why Thorpe I mean, you think Thorpe feels trapped.
他过去有一段关系，让他始终无法摆脱被暴露性取向的恐惧。
He's got this liaison in his past that he feels he he can never rid himself of that fear of being exposed for his sexuality.
对。
Yeah.
他觉得自己必须做点什么。
And he feels he has to do something.
无论他最初是开玩笑说的，还是真心这么想的，我认为当事情发生得如此遥远时，对他来说可能根本从未显得真实。
And whether he said it first as a joke or whether he really meant it, I I I think when it's happening at so many removes, it probably never really seemed real to him.
哦，干脆把他除掉吧。
Oh, just get rid of him.
我想我当时11岁。
I I was 11, I think.
是的。
Yeah.
我当时11岁。
I was 11.
我对当时发生的事情有一种模糊的认识，虽然不太确定杰里米·索普具体做了什么，但我隐约知道那是一件坏事。
And I had a vague sense of what was going on and I wasn't entirely sure what Jeremy Thorpe exactly was supposed to have done but I kind of vaguely knew that it was something bad.
这里有一个来自托尼·麦戈万的评论，他是开路击球手，也是作者之一。
We have a comment here from Tony McGowan, opening batsman and the authors.
我应该说，他比我年长一些。
A little bit older than me I should say.
我希望你会提到那桩丑闻之后每所学校流传的糟糕笑话，比如杰里米·索普发现诺曼·斯科特偷偷溜上他的游艇时发生了什么——他让诺曼通过干活来抵船费。
I hope you'll be mentioning the terrible jokes that went around every school in the wake of the scandal eg what happened when Jeremy Thorpe found Norman Scott stowing away on his yacht he made him work his passage.
所以这场审判某种程度上为这类学生笑话提供了素材，而且你知道，英国有种下流话、影射和反同性恋笑话的传统。
So the trial kind of provided grist for schoolboy jokes like that and there was a kind of, you know, the tradition of British smut, of innuendo, of anti gay jokes.
我的意思是，这某种程度上助长了那种风气。
I mean it kind of powered that particular mill.
然后帕特·罗伯茨有一条有趣的评论。
And then there's a interesting comment from Pat Roberts.
我第一次听到'同性恋'这个词与索普有关时，大约九岁。
I first heard the word 'homosexual' with regard to Thorpe when I was about nine.
还有'花瓶'这个词与加里·哈特有关，以及一种我不愿提及的性行为与比尔·克林顿有关。
The word 'bimbo' with regard to Gary Hart and about a sexual practice I won't mention with regard to Bill Clinton.
政治丑闻是否给了体面媒体说脏话的许可？
Do political scandals give permission to the respectable media to talk dirty?
所以，这基本上给了学童和媒体处理低俗话题的许可，而这些话题在70年代末期，人们可能比现在更克制，不愿谈论。
So it basically gives permission to schoolchildren and to the media to deal in of smutty subjects that otherwise perhaps back in the late 70s people were more restrained in talking about than perhaps they would be now.
我认为这一点的绝佳例证就是《世界新闻报》的存在，尽管它现在已经停刊了。在五六十到七十年代，每逢周末星期天，《世界新闻报》总是刊登一些关于风流教区牧师或被人抓到在尴尬情境中的故事。
I think the good example of that is the very existence of the News of the World newspaper, now defunct, which in the sort of fifties, sixties, seventies, you know, at the weekend on Sundays, the News of World always had stories about flandering vicars or, you know, people caught in compromising situations.
你说得对。
And you're right.
这背后有种某种道德上的放纵。
It's it's a kind of purience to it.
但它始终是讲述那些挑逗性故事和丑闻的借口。
But it was always an excuse to tell sort of titillating stories and stories about wrongdoing.
我认为，索普丑闻正是这种现象的典型代表。
And I think thought the Thorpe scandal was the consummate example of that.
但更重要的是，它之所以如此关键，是因为在七十年代，英国政治中弥漫着一种衰败感，一种体制性的污秽感。
But, also, it's so I think it really why it really matters is because in the nineteen seventies, there was a sense of decrepitude in British politics, the sense of establishment seediness.
而当时最大的受益者正是玛格丽特·撒切尔。
And this was precise I mean, the big winner was Margaret Thatcher.
她有着无可挑剔的私人生活，是一位女性，树立了某种清廉正直的形象。
You know, unimpeachable private life, a woman, breath of you know, sort of projected
就像六十年代初的香水丑闻一样。
herself thing as with the perfume scandal in the the early sixties.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
Exactly.
终结了麦克米伦政府，给它披上了一层寒酸和衰败的外衣。
Put paid to the Macmillan government, gave it the kind of aura of of shabbiness and decrepitude.
没错。
Exactly.
索斯韦尔是一位寻求共识的政治家。
And Thorpe is a consensus politician.
他是战后那种略带社会民主共识氛围的政治家。
He's a politician of that postwar sort of slightly social democratic consensus.
而玛格丽特·撒切尔在1979年——也就是他受审的那一年——宣称她要粉碎的就是这种共识。
And that's what Margaret Thatcher in 1979, the year that he's tried, that's what she says she wants to smash.
这非常能说明问题。
And it's very telling.
你知道，保守党在1974年落败，是因为他们的大量选民，大约有200万，转而支持了自由党。
You know, the Tories had lost in 1974 because so many of their voters, something like 2,000,000 of their voters, had defected to Liberals.
这些选民在索普受审的那一年回归到了玛格丽特·撒切尔麾下，他们给了她所需的动力，让她得以在八十年代去改变一切。
Those voters return in the year of the Thorpe trial to Margaret Thatcher, and they give her the the impetus that she needs to go and sort of change everything in the nineteen eighties.
我的意思是，我认为休·格兰特对杰里米·索普的刻画有力地传达了他的魅力、机智以及那种温文尔雅的特质。
Mean, thought what Hugh Grant's portrayal of Jeremy Thorpe powerfully conveyed was the charm and the wit and the kind of debonair qualities.
伊恩·琼斯提供了一份采访笔录，内容是70、80年代那位伟大的质询者罗宾·戴，在1979年大选中索普失去北德文郡席位后对他的采访。
Ian Jones has given a transcript of an interview between Robin Day, the great inquisitor of the 70s and 80s, interviewing Thorpe on losing his North Devon seat at the nineteen seventy nine general election.
罗宾·戴问：'索普先生，你认为自己因密谋谋杀被起诉是你败选的一个因素吗？'索普对此回答道：'这么说吧，罗宾，我不认为这有什么帮助。'
Robin Day, 'Mr Thorpe, do you think your prosecution for conspiracy to murder was a factor in your defeat?' To which Thorpe replies, Put it like this, Robin, I don't think it helped.
是的。
Yeah.
嗯，索普当时确实挺风趣的。
Well, Thorpe was really funny.
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