66. 幽灵

公元前一世纪，哲学家阿瑟诺多罗斯正在雅典寻找一处出租的房子。

In the first century BC, the philosopher Athenodorus was looking for a house to rent in Athens.

他找到一处房子，价格异常便宜，考虑到房子的规模，他很快明白了原因。

He found one at a remarkably good rate given how large it was, and he soon realized why.

就在第一个晚上，他熬夜工作时，一个长着长须、毛发竖立、铁链叮当作响的幽灵出现了。

On the very first night, he was working late when a ghost appeared with a long beard and bristling hair clanking its iron fetters.

幽灵带他到外面，指了指庭院里的一个地方。

The ghost led him outside and indicated a spot in the courtyard.

第二天，当阿瑟诺多罗斯让人挖开那个地方时，他的手下发现了一堆陈年骸骨。

The next day, when Athanodorus had the spot dug up, his men found a pile of old bones.

在骸骨被妥善安葬后，这所房子就不再闹鬼了。

And after the bones had been laid to rest, the house was haunted no more.

汤姆·霍兰德，这是一个很棒的故事，对吧？

Tom Holland, that is a great story, isn't it?

一个精彩绝伦的普林尼故事。

A fabulous Pliny.

这不是出自普林尼吗？

Isn't it from Pliny?

是的。

It is.

是小普林尼。

The younger Pliny.

但我从小就开始记得这个故事。

But I remember it from, childhood.

我有一本《鬼故事大全》，这个故事就是书里的第一个。

I had a The Bumper Book of Ghosts, and that was the very first story in it.

书里有一幅精彩的黑白插图，画的是阿瑟诺多罗斯和那个戴着镣铐、留着胡须的幽灵，正悄悄从他身后逼近。

And it had a fabulous, black and white illustration of, Athenodorus and the ghost with the manacles and the beard creeping up behind him.

所以我对这个故事记得非常非常清楚。

So I I remember it very, very vividly.

我一直都很喜欢关于幽灵的故事。

And the ghosts have have always I I've always loved stories about ghosts.

事实上，在封锁期间，我的一项活动就是沿着伦敦进行幽灵猎奇步行。

And in fact, over the course of the lockdown, one of my activities was to go on ghost hunting walks across London.

所以我完成了两次超长步行，一路从塔楼穿过伦敦，再折返回来，还一直走到海格特公墓，那里或许拥有英国最闹鬼的道路。

So I did two huge walks, you know, up to the tower, across London, back down again, and I went right right the way up to, Highgate Cemetery, which boasts perhaps the most haunted, road in Britain.

那里有海格特吸血鬼。

It's got the Highgate vampire.

还有一种奇怪的灵体幻影，会悄悄靠近人然后突然跳开，各种吓人的东西都有。

It's got a kind of strange psychic blob that creeps up on people and then leaps away, all kinds of terrifying things.

但在那条路的顶端，有一个池塘广场，那里拥有我迄今为止最喜爱的鬼故事。

But at the top of at the top of, of of that road, there is Pond Square, which boasts perhaps my favorite ghost of all time.

1626年，弗朗西斯·培根在池塘广场试图通过杀死一只鸡、拔毛、开膛并塞满雪来实现冷冻保存。

Pond Square is where Francis Bacon in 1626 attempted to deep freeze a chicken by killing it, plucking it, gutting it, and stuffing it with snow.

所以你还记得这个故事吧。

So you remember that story.

培根因此着凉，最终因此丧命。

And and and Bacon gets he he gets a chill and ends up dying.

所以人们总是记得培根，却忘了那只鸡。

So people always remember Bacon, but they don't remember the chicken.

那只鸡是这个区域的全部吗？

Is the chicken is the chicken whole of the area?

在那之后，没人再见过或听过它，直到二战时，消防员报告说看到一只大鸟在原地打转，无法飞行，因为它的羽毛都被拔光了，可怜地拍打着残存的翅膀。它偶尔仍会被看到从天空中尖叫着坠落。

Well, nothing nothing was seen or heard of it until the second world war when firefighters reported seeing a large bird unable to fly because its feathers had been plucked running round in circles and pathetically flapping the stumps of its wings, it is still occasionally seen dropping out of the sky with a squawk.

总是这种愚蠢的事情。

It is always stupid stuff.

它总是瑟瑟发抖。

It is always shivering.

哇哦。

Wow.

所以我认为我们没有资格对超自然现象妄下结论。

So I'm I don't think we're qualified to pronounce on the supernatural.

我的意思是，我们连对自然现象都 barely 有资格评说。

I mean, we're barely qualified to pronounce on the natural.

确实如此。

That's true.

所以我想问一下，今天我们有嘉宾吗？

So I think, do you have a guest for us today?

有。

I do.

我请到了我们可能拥有的最好的嘉宾。

And I have the best guest we could possibly have.

是罗杰·克拉克，他写了我认为我读过的关于鬼魂最好的书。

It's Roger Clarke who wrote what I think is the best book on ghosts that I've ever ever read.

这本书不仅讲鬼魂，还讲鬼魂的历史。

And it's a book not just about ghosts, but about the history of ghosts.

简直完美。

So absolutely perfect.

《鬼魂、自然史：五百年寻找证据》。

Ghosts, Natural History, Five Hundred Years of Searching for Proof.

我是在圣诞节读的这本书，因为显然，圣诞节就应该读一本关于鬼怪的书，是的。

And I read it this Christmas, because obviously at Christmas, you should read a ghost a book of yeah.

鬼故事之类的。

Ghost stories and things.

我妻子买了一把椅子，你知道的，那种绅士俱乐部里常见的椅子。

And, my wife had bought a, a kind of, you know, the kind of chair you get in a gentleman's club.

她是在eBay上买的，或者类似的地方。

She bought it on eBay or something.

我把椅子放在壁炉前，倒了一杯雪利酒，拿着罗杰的书，这是我一生中最棒的阅读体验之一。

I put it in front of the fire, glass of sherry, Roger's book, one of the great, great reading experiences of my life.

那时我们刚刚开始做播客，我就想，我们必须请他来，必须聊聊鬼怪。

And we'd begun the podcast then, and I thought we have to get him on, and we have to talk ghosts.

所以，罗杰，非常感谢你。

So, Roger, thank you so much.

这真是我的荣幸。

Such a pleasure.

是的，没错。

And I I yes.

每天早上五点，我都迫不及待想看看你会挑选出哪个奇特的故事。

Every day at 05:00, I was sort of wrapped to see which peculiar story you would pick out.

是的，我确实会加入一些奇怪的故事。

And, yes, I I I do throw in a few strange ones.

有这么多奇特的故事，对吧？

Well, there are so many peculiar stories, isn't it?

因为本质上，我们不妨先回答一个由罗布·朗提出的问题。

Because, essentially, you you are let's actually begin with a question which has been sent in by Rob Long.

他说，背景有多重要？

And he says, how much does background matter?

英国的鬼魂目击事件和法国的有什么不同吗？

Are British ghost sightings different, say, to French?

那个时代发生的事件在多大程度上影响了人们的报告？

How much do the events of the time seem to affect what people report?

这基本上就是你的论点，对吧？

And that essentially is your thesis, isn't it?

鬼故事会随着时代的变化而演变，反映那个时代人们的假设、信仰，以及可能的紧张和偏执。

That ghost stories evolve to reflect the assumptions and the beliefs and perhaps the tensions and the paranoias of the age in which these ghosts appear.

是的。

Yes.

直到我开始写这本书时，我才真正意识到这一点。

And I didn't really realize this until I started writing the book.

我从小对鬼魂有一种痴迷，总想亲眼见到鬼。

And I had this sort of childhood obsession with ghosts, I wanted to see a ghost.

后来我上了大学，等等，我对这种兴趣感到有些尴尬，于是提出了这本书的构想，书也写成了，这时我注意到人们对鬼魂的期待发生了明显的变化，我更多关注的不是‘鬼魂是否存在’这个问题。

And then as I went to university and so forth, I got rather embarrassed by my interest in it and pitched the book, it got written, and noticed there was a definite shift in what people wanted from ghosts, and not so much I found the question, do ghosts exist?

这个问题其实并不太有趣。

Not really very interesting.

我想弄清楚人们希望从鬼魂身上得到什么，然后我意识到，大约每一百年，人们对鬼魂的体验就会出现明显的转变。

I wanted to find out what people wanted from ghosts, and I realized that you could see definite shifts in what the ghost experiences about every hundred years.

我童年时期的另一件事是，七十年代时，我们是欧洲的穷国，什么事都做不好，但在鬼故事方面却特别在行。

And the other thing from my childhood is that in the seventies is that we were the poor man of Europe, we were terrible at everything, but we were really good at ghosts.

我们是世界上被鬼魂困扰最严重的国家。

And we were the most haunted country in the world.

这是一个奇妙而引人入胜的想法。

And this was a marvelous and involving thought.

所以我想要回去探究一下这一点。

And so I wanted to go back and look at that.

为什么七十年代会有这么多关于鬼魂的书和著名的鬼魂猎人？

And why were there so many ghost books and famous ghost hunters in the seventies?

我小时候其实写过这些内容，开始参与讨论鬼魂，以及鬼魂有不同的种类。

I actually wrote them as a schoolboy and got sort of involved in discussing ghosts and that there were different kinds of ghosts.

显然我当时总结出了大约十种不同的鬼魂类型，之后一切就逐渐展开了。

Clearly I worked out there about 10 or so varying kinds of ghosts, and it all sort of went from there.

我注意到英国、英格兰和英国有一些特定的问题，涉及内战，在很大程度上还涉及对天主教的压制、18世纪80年代天主教的复兴，以及对天主教卷土重来的恐惧，同时还有因王室成员带来的德意志信仰的渗透，当然还有凯尔特元素，这是一种非常独特的信仰混合体。

And I noticed that there were some specific issues about Britain and England and The UK, and it involved the civil war, and to quite a big extent the suppression of Catholicism, the comeback of Catholicism in the 1780s and so forth, and this fear of resurgent Catholicism, but also the sprinklings of German belief which came in with the various members of the royal family, obviously all the Celtic stuff, and it's a very specific mix of belief.

而且，似乎有一种特定的观点，认为鬼故事具有一种安慰人心的作用，这在世界文化中相当独特。

And also, seem to have this specific idea of the sort of comfort that ghost stories are sort of comforting, which is quite relatively unusual in world culture.

为什么偏偏要把这种令人惊悚的主题，当作冬至时节的一种慰藉呢？

Want to to have this alarming subject so as a comforting midwinter thing in particular?

如果让你概括一下，罗杰，我觉得你的书非常引人入胜，尤其是关于宗教与鬼魂之间关联的部分。

And if you were to boil it down, Roger, do you think that so I find your book fascinating, and particularly the stuff about religion and ghosts, sort of linking the two.

我的意思是，你在书中提到，在一个世俗化的时代，对鬼魂的信仰是一种宗教衰败的形式，之类的话。

I mean, you have a line in your book about belief in ghosts as a sort of decayed form of religion in a secular age or something.

但你大量谈到了宗教改革的影响，比如与天主教会决裂、内战等等。

But you talk a lot about the influence of the Reformation, So breaking with the cath Catholic church and then the civil war and so on.

你认为，正是由于宗教改革，英国才特别形成了这种鬼故事传统，出现了如此多的修士、修女，以及被诅咒的耶稣会士之类的人物吗？

And do you think it's because of the reformation that England England specifically has this tradition of of of ghost stories and so many kind of monks and nuns and sort of haunted Jesuitical figures and stuff like that.

是的。

Yes.

那些被活埋的修士等等，本质上都是我所说的‘现成’鬼魂。

The the walled up the walled up monks and so forth, they're they're all essentially regency off the what I call off the shelf ghosts.

头无马车和无头骑士之类的东西也是如此。

And it's the same with headless carriages and headless horsemen and that sort of thing.

同样，无头这一现象几乎可以直接追溯到圣徒，也就是你们所说的头颅携带者——无头圣徒，这是一个悠久的传统，你们二位都知道。

And again, with asephale, the headlessness, goes almost straight back to the saints, do you call them, cephalophores, the headless saints, which is a long tradition as you both know.

我对安·博林非常感兴趣，你知道，她在流行文化中常被描绘成一个迷迷糊糊的人物，但据我了解，她其实是一位令人敬畏的新教信徒。

And I was very interested as to, you know, and Anne Boleyn being quite I mean, she's seen in popular culture as a sort of of a sort of dizzy creature, but as far as I understand, she was quite a fearsome Protestant believer.

她会在周年纪念日归来，就像圣徒的纪念日一样，带着她的头颅，那她是从哪里来的呢？

And the idea that she would come back on an anniversary, a bit like a saint she was almost like a saint's day these anniversaries with her head and where was she coming from?

她是来自炼狱吗？

Was she coming from purgatory?

如果她是来自炼狱，那就意味着她的整个信仰体系——如果她真的来自炼狱——是错误的。

And if she was, that means that her whole belief system, if she was coming from purgatory, was incorrect.

曾经有一段时间，相信幽灵会让人被认定为天主教徒，而这可是件危险的事。

For there was a while where to believe in ghosts marked you out as Catholic, which was a dangerous business.

罗杰，显然这里让人联想到英国文学中最著名的幽灵——哈姆雷特父亲的幽灵。

Well, Roger, I mean, obviously there's an echo there of perhaps the most famous ghost in English literature, which is the ghost of Hamlet's father.

是的。

Yes.

哈姆雷特在维滕贝格学习，因此 presumably 是一个虔诚的新教徒，但他的父亲却是一个身处炼狱的幽灵，这似乎暗示着他是天主教徒。

And that sense that Hamlet, who studies at Wittenberg and therefore presumably is a good Protestant, has as a father a ghost who's in purgatory and who therefore presumably is Catholic.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这是剧中一个被埋藏的元素，不是吗？

I mean, that's a kind of buried element of the play, isn't it?

是的。

Yes.

有很多理论认为莎士比亚是一个秘密的天主教徒，对此我有点信服，就像可能 M.

And there's a lot of theories that Shakespeare was a secret Catholic and so forth, which I find slightly convincing, in the same way that maybe M.

R.

R.

詹姆斯有高教会派倾向，却想向父亲隐瞒，因此他没有成为神职人员。

James had high church leadings that he wanted to conceal from his father, which is why he didn't become a clergyman.

让我们困扰的是，很多M.

Of annoys it us that a lot of M.

R.

R.

詹姆斯的幽灵都与前新教时期的守护灵有关等等。

James' ghosts are to do with pre Protestant guardian spirits and so forth.

是的。

Yeah.

所以M.

So M.

R.

R.

詹姆斯，对于那些不了解的听众来说，是经典鬼故事的最高代表，对吧？

James, for those listeners who don't know, is the supreme exponent of the classic ghost story, isn't he?

他写作的时间大概是二十世纪初。

When's he writing early twentieth century, I suppose.

但他的故事总是回望过去的，不是吗？

But his stories are always backward looking, aren't they?

它们带有哥特元素，从你的书中我感受到你觉得哥特元素在鬼故事中。

They're and they have that gothic element, which I get I get an impression from your book that you think you you think the gothic element in ghost stories.

嗯，是的。

Well Well Yeah.

我不会把话说死说你觉得这是虚假的，但你觉得你谈论的是民间传说性质的东西，对吧。

I'm not gonna put words in your mouth and say that you think it's fraudulent, but that you think you talk about things being folkloric Yes.

你通常的意思是我感觉你并不是在赞赏这一点，你觉得鬼故事中的民间元素意味着它实际上是真实的。

Which which you generally mean I I don't get the sense that you mean that approvingly, and you think that folkloric elements of a ghost story mean that it's as it were true.

但你觉得人们给这些故事增添了很多包袱，如果

But you think that that's kind of people have brought a lot of baggage to the story, if

你这么说的话。

you like.

哦，是的。

Oh, yes.

不。

No.

我完全不是在贬低民间传说的意思。

I don't mean folkloric disparagingly at all.

从某种意义上说，我是个民俗学者。

I'm, in some sense, a folklorist.

你知道吗？

You know?

我觉得你在《信仰的幽灵》这本书中更倾向于民间传说这一面，而不是科学那一面。

I think you tend to be with Ghosts of Belief a bit more on the folkloric side or the science side.

而科学这一面不知为何已经陷入了一种死胡同。

And the science side has sort of reached a kind of cul de sac for one reason or the other.

它在过去一百多年里非常活跃。

It was very active for over a hundred years.

我认为我们现在更多地把鬼故事之类的东西看作是各种复杂社会规范的建构。

And I think we're now much more seeing ghost stories and things as constructions of all sorts of complicated social mores.

我在书中也谈到了鬼魂与英国阶级的关系。

I also talk in the book about the British class aspect of ghosts.

但回到天主教这个话题，你看，奥特兰托城堡和沃尔波尔的诞生就是在这个时期。

But going back to the Catholicism thing, I mean, you've got the birth of the Castle Of Otranto and Walpole.

在天主教解放法案等一系列事件推进的过程中，这类作品出现了好几部。

About the whole time all of the Catholic emancipation act and so forth were trundling through, there were several of them.

你可以从戈登暴乱中看到这种真实的恐慌——天主教仿佛从地底重新爬出，并会带来鬼魂。

And you can see this on the Gordon riots and this genuine alarm that Catholicism was like crawling back out of the ground and would bring ghosts with it.

这就是为什么哥特文学中会出现这些幽灵般的、恶魔般的修士形象。

That's why you get these sort of spectral and satanic monks in Gothic literature.

M.R.詹姆斯，可以说是我心中的英雄，他非常不认同许多哥特文学，觉得它们有些令人反感。

MR James, who's sort of my hero, very much disapproved of a lot of Gothic literature one reason or the other, he thought it was a bit distasteful.

关于M.

What's interesting about M.

R.

R.

詹姆斯常被视为我们最伟大的鬼故事作家，尤其是小说类鬼故事。

James is he's routinely held up as our greatest ghost story writer, fictional ghost stories.

然而，他所写的实际上根本不是传统的鬼魂。

And yet what he does is not actually traditional ghosts at all.

它们要么是那种死去却仍活着的中世纪类型——行走的尸体，一种确确实实的存在；要么像我说的，是某种黑魔法和神秘实践所衍生出的守护灵。

They're either these sort of dead alive, medieval type walking dead, who is a definite thing, the animated corpse, or as I say, these kind of guardian spirits as a result of sort of versions of black magic and occult practice.

因此，它们根本不是孤独的幽灵之类的东西，而是非常可怕、非人性且令人不快的存在。

And so they're really not at all lonely spirits and things like that, they're quite fearsome and inhuman and unpleasant.

在我们更详细地探讨英国人对鬼魂的理解如何从宗教改革以来演变之前，我们能不能先把镜头拉远一点？

So before we we start to look at in more detail at the way that the British understanding of ghosts has evolved from the Reformation and onwards, could we just broaden the camera back out again?

因为你提到了中世纪的鬼魂。

Because you you you mentioned medieval ghosts.

是的。

Yeah.

它们与我们现在所熟知的鬼魂有着微妙的不同。

That that they are kind of subtly different to the the ones that we now know.

当然，在那之前，还有古典幽灵的例子。

And then, of course, before that, there's the example of the classical ghost.

正如多米尼克在节目开头讲述的故事中那样，你听到了铁链的叮当声。

And from, you know, the story that Dominic narrated at the the head of the show, you've got clanking chains.

是的。

Yes.

还有那些需要被安葬的人。

And you've you've got people who need to be buried.

显然，这些元素确实影响了主流的幽灵观念。

So there are clearly elements there that do feed into the kind of the mainstream.

此外，古希腊人和古罗马人认为幽灵会在公鸡打鸣时消失，它们会在午夜和正午等特定时刻出现。

And, also, the the the Greeks and the Romans thought that ghosts vanished on cock crows and that they appear at midnight and at midday and kind of various elements like that.

那么，古典幽灵与我们今天所熟知的幽灵究竟有多大的不同呢？

So how how different are, say, classical ghosts to the ghosts that we recognize today?

这些古典故事在多大程度上影响了我们今天所知的鬼故事？

And to what extent do those classical stories have an influence on the ghost story as we know it?

如果你追溯到苏美尔人的亡者，那时的幽灵更像是半恶魔的存在。

If you go all the way back to this Sumerian dead and things, what ghosts were, were again sort of half demonic.

它们既不完全是人，也不完全是我们今天所理解的幽灵。

They weren't really quite people and they weren't really quite ghosts as we understand it.

而关于饥饿的亡者或亡者因埋葬方式不当而感到不满的概念——正如你之前提到的希腊故事中所描述的——这种对葬礼仪式的违背，对所有古代幽灵来说都是严重的问题。

And this idea of the hungry dead or the dead being unhappy about the way that they'd been buried, which is what you get in the Greek story you mentioned earlier, is like an abrogation of burial procedure is very problematic for all of the archaic ghosts.

但一旦幽灵开始被视为像你我一样的人，这种转变直到20世纪50年代才真正完全实现，那时幽灵只是被看作普通人，而在此之前，一直存在着一种逐渐演变的观念：那些不安的亡者、未被安葬的亡者，渴望得到适当的仪式和埋葬。

But as soon as ghosts are seen as sort of people, a bit like you and I, it didn't really happen totally until the 1950s where ghosts were just seen as people, you get this gradual procession this archaic idea of the troubled dead, the unburied dead, who wanted proper observance made, proper burial made.

到了中世纪，亡者被视为正在为来世做准备，他们回来是为了警告人们过更好的生活。

And then in medieval times, you've got the dead who were really just being prepared for the afterlife and were coming back to warn people to live better lives and lead better lives really.

他们常常预示着死亡的临近，提醒人们要整顿好自己的人生，诸如此类。

And they were often warnings of their imminent death and they need to get their act together, that sort of thing.

因为就罗马幽灵而言，他们根本没有一个与我们‘幽灵’完全对应的词汇。

Because sense of, say, Roman ghosts, for starters, they don't really have a a word equivalent to our ghost.

他们拥有的是一系列不同的‘影子’形态，可能会显现出来。

I mean, have kind of various different qualities of shade that that that might appear.

有些是祖先的鬼魂。

Some are some are are, you know, ancestral ghosts.

有些则更具恶意。

Some are more malign.

还有一种非常奇特的类型，我记得的是刺杀凯撒的布鲁图斯，在腓立比战役前夜——他最终会自杀——他看到了自己，说：‘我是你的什么来着？’

And then the kind of very weird one so the the weird one I remember is, Brutus, the murderer of Caesar on the eve of the Battle of Philopine, which he he will end up committing suicide, kind of seeing seeing himself, and say, you know, I I am your what is it?

我是你的命运。

I I kind of, I am your your your fate.

我来是警告你的。

I have come to to warn you.

这算是一种鬼魂，但又不完全是，对吧？

And it's kind it's kind of a ghost, but it's not quite, is it?

我想我们面对的是那些看起来熟悉，却又有些说不清道不明的怪异之物。

And I I suppose you have the sense that we're dealing with with things that kind of look familiar, but but are strange in ways that we can't quite put our fingers on.

这个故事相当有趣，因为心灵研究学会的一大重要发现——这个成立于1882年的崇高组织，成员包括首相、桂冠诗人和极其杰出的科学家，其中一些人后来获得了诺贝尔奖。

Well, story is quite interesting because one of the great revelations of the Society for Psychical Research, which was this incredibly august body created in 1882 full of prime ministers and pirate laureates and extremely eminent scientists, some of whom went on to win Nobel prizes.

他们最早发现的现象之一被称为‘活人幻影’。

And one of the first things they discovered was called phantasms of the living.

最常见的幽灵其实是活人的幻影，而这些人实际上还活着。

And the most common ghosts were ghosts of living people, and that people were still alive.

这彻底颠覆了人们对幽灵可能是什么的观念。

And this really threw the cat among the pigeons as the idea of what ghosts could possibly be.

如果这些人还活着，那他们显然就不是传统意义上的幽灵。

Surely if they were still alive, then they weren't ghosts in the classical sense.

可能存在某种尚未被科学理解的其他能量形式，正是从这里，整个科学探索的脉络开始，并在最近才逐渐告一段落。

There was some kind of other emanation possibly to do with the science as yet unknown, which is where this whole science trajectory kind of began and sort of ended relatively recently.

我认为，试图用科学来解释幽灵，这本身就像天主教的幽灵在新教英格兰、苏美尔的幽灵在苏美尔一样，是我们这个时代的反映。

I guess looking for for for scientific, you know, for ghosts that can be explained scientifically, I mean, is as much a reflection of our age as, you know, a Catholic ghost in Protestant England or, you know, a Sumerian ghost in Sumeria.

此外，战场和战场遗址是著名的幽灵出没地，比如埃奇希尔战役之类的，还有战后夜空中的景象等等。

Well, also, I mean, battle ghosts and battlefields are famous sites, you know, for ghosts, like the the battle of Edge Hill and so forth, and the scene in the night sky, you know, afterwards and so forth.

这种关于预言、王权与伟人的观念，我认为都融入了这种充满浪漫色彩的力量氛围之中。

And this idea of prophecy and, kingship and great man is all part of that romantic mix of power, I think.

我有一个听众提出的问题。

I've got a question that one of the listeners asked.

接续汤姆关于经典幽灵的观点，我觉得现在是个好时机来讨论这个。

Just picking up on Tom's point about classical ghosts, I think we have a good time to do this.

我们也会给汤姆一个机会谈谈他最感兴趣的话题。

We'll also give Tom a chance to talk about his favorite subject.

这涉及到《新约》中耶稣说他复活后出现，并说：我不是幽灵。

So it's about the New Testament where Jesus says he comes back and he says, I'm not a ghost.

有没有人曾经认为耶稣实际上是一个幽灵？

Is there any tradition of people thinking that Jesus was actually a ghost?

也就是说，那个在钉十字架之后出现的人，其实并不是复活的基督，而只是一个普通的犹太幽灵。

That actually, you know, the the the the the fellow who pitches up after the crucifixion is actually not the reborn Christ, but it's just a bog standard, you know, just an ordinary kind of Jewish ghost.

是的。

Yes.

我认为汤姆对这个比我知道得更多。

I think Tom will know more about this than I do.

但是，是的，我的意思是，你可能会涉及到三位一体和圣灵的整个问题，以及它们如何契合，这一直引发其他宗教的嘲讽，比如圣灵到底是什么等等。

But but, yes, I mean, I suppose you get into the whole matter of the Trinity and the Holy Ghost and how that fits in, has always been the result of some mockery from other religions, to what extent what is the Holy Ghost and so forth.

但至于耶稣的复活，我真的不知道该怎么说。

But yes, as far as the Jesus' resurrection, I don't really know what to say about that.

他是幽灵吗？但他同时又是所有的一切，你知道的？

It was, is he a ghost, but he's also all things at once, you know?

嗯，关键是，托马斯去触摸他的伤口，这种坚持

Well, guess the insistence that, you know, Thomas feel his wounds

没错。

Exactly.

身体的实体性

The physicality of the body

是的。

Yes.

这种说法是建立在这样一个世界背景之上的：人们普遍认为死者确实会复活。

Is is set against the background of a world in which it is pretty much taken for granted that the dead can can rise up.

嗯，这正是关键所在。在古典世界中，你面对着各种各样的幽灵，形形色色，无所不有。

Well, that's what And you just have this you know, in in in the classical world, you just have this incredible array of specters, every conceivable kind.

因此，我认为福音书的作者们坚持强调，复活的基督并非这些幽灵中的一种，这一点至关重要。

And so it's really, really important, I think, for the, for the writers of the gospel to insist that he, you know, the risen Christ is not one of these various specters.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

有意思的是，显然他身上有致命的创伤，但他却 somehow 依然存活。

And I mean, what's interesting is there clearly there's clearly the mortal damage there, and yet he is somehow sustained.

这或许正是中世纪传统——M.的起源基础。

And maybe this is the basis for this great medieval tradition, which M.

R.

R.

詹姆斯所钟爱的行尸走肉传统，那些游荡的亡者。但你说得对，耶稣显然是个特例，因此你不能从一般的鬼魂信仰中随意推论出他的情况。

James loved, of the walking dead, the ambulatory people who were sort of But you're right, Jesus was obviously a special case, so you can't really extrapolate on general ghost belief from

我认为这是一个绝佳的时机，可以稍作休息。

I think that's a perfect mate perhaps on which to take a quick break.

耶稣确实是个特例，我想我们谈的是幽灵法则。

Jesus was indeed a special case, I guess, we're talking ghost law.

也许当我们回来时，可以看看一些最著名的鬼故事，那些哪怕对这个话题只有最模糊了解的人也会知道的故事，比如鲍德·埃雷克托里等等，因为您重述这些经典故事的方式真的非常出色。

And maybe when we come back, we could look at some of the greatest ghost stories, ghost stories that that anyone with even the vaguest familiarity with the subject will know, bald erectory and so on, because your retelling of those classic stories is really quite something.

所以，各位别走开。

So, guys, don't go away.

留下来值得一看。

It's worth hanging around for.

欢迎回到《余下的历史》。

Welcome back to the rest is history.

我们正在与罗杰·克拉克讨论幽灵话题，上半部分我们聊了一些罗马幽灵和耶稣。

We are talking about ghosts with Roger Clarke and having sort of faffed around with some Roman ghosts and with Jesus in the first half.

接下来，我们怎么深入探讨一些典型的英国民间鬼故事传统呢？

How can it get stuck into some of the great classic ghost stories of sort of English of the English folkloric kind of ghost tradition.

所以，罗杰，我们不妨从你书里开头讲的那个故事开始吧？

So, Roger, why don't we start, with one of the stories that you you you kick off with in really in your book?

就是那座被闹到死的屋子，对吧？

It's the house that was haunted to death, isn't it?

它叫什么来着？

It's what's it called?

辛顿

Hinton

辛顿安普纳

Hinton Ampner.

对。

Yes.

辛顿安普纳

Hinton Ampner.

我觉得现在它是国家信托基金的财产了吧？

I think it's a National Trust house now, isn't it?

确实是的。

It is indeed.

那是一座相对现代的房子，已经烧过好几次了。

It's got a modern a relatively modern house that's burnt down several times.

这是伊钦河的源头。

It's where the River Itchen arrived.

对吧？

Right?

那里曾经有

There was a

费加尔·沙基带我去走过那条路。

Taken there by Fergal Sharkey to walk it.

那里也非常阴森。

Very creepy it was too.

是的，他太棒了。

Yes, he's amazing.

我在Twitter上关注他。

I follow him on Twitter.

是的，它确实被彻底拆除了。

Yes, it was really knocked down.

因为它被认为闹鬼严重，无法居住，所以被拆除了。

It was considered to be so haunted, it was unlivable, and it was knocked down.

但辛顿的一个有趣之处在于，有许多由真正不是傻瓜的人记录下来的家族文件。

But one of the interesting aspects of Hinton is that there was a huge amount of written down family documents about it by people who were really not fools.

对我来说，任何鬼故事中最好的证人之一就是圣文森特勋爵，他后来成为了圣文森特勋爵，那位著名的海军上将。

And for me, one of the best witnesses of any ghost case there, is Lord St Vincent, who later became Lord St Vincent, who was the famous admiral.

是的。

Yes.

基本上，HMS胜利号就是他的船等等。

And basically HMS Victory was his ship and so forth.

他是那位镇压斯皮特黑德叛乱的著名人物等等。

He was the famous man who put down the Spithead mutiny and so forth.

他绝对是那种不讲废话的海军权威的化身。

He was absolutely the essence of no nonsense naval authority.

据称，直到他生命的尽头，只要一提到幽灵，他就会暴跳如雷，因为他亲身经历过，却无法解释。

And to the end of his days apparently, he flew into a rage whenever the ghost was mentioned because he experienced it firsthand and could not explain it.

所以给我们讲讲这个故事吧，给那些不了解的听众们听。

So give us some of the story for those listeners who don't

知道这件事。

know it.

大约在1760年代，一位名叫玛丽·里基茨的女士带着她的孩子们在汉普郡租了一所房子。

So in the sort of 1760s, this woman called Mary Ricketts rented a house with her children in Hampshire.

她的丈夫当时在西印度群岛做生意，因此她几乎独自一人。

Her husband was sort of away in business in the West Indies, so she was very much on her own.

她把自己的仆人也带了过去。

She took her own servants down there.

那是一栋相当老旧、破败的房子。

It was a pretty old decayed house.

很快就开始出现麻烦，门被砰砰砸响，好像有人不断进出房子，但没人能弄清楚到底发生了什么。

And pretty soon nuisance started, was lots of banging doors, And it seemed like people were coming in and out of the house and nobody could work out what was going on.

伦敦来的仆人都离开了，而且很难留住新仆人。

And the London servants all left and there were problems keeping servants.

他们贴出了悬赏告示，因为他们觉得提供的报酬相当丰厚——相当于一个农村劳工一年的工资，以换取有关谁闯入房子的信息。

And then they put up a reward notice because they thought they're offering quite a lot of money, like a year's labourer's wage, rural labouring wage for information on to who was breaking into the house.

事情就这样一发不可收拾，持续不断地上演。

And it just sort of cascaded on and on and on.

有人在房子周围看到了一个男人的幽灵，接着又听到了一个女人匆忙跑过的声响。

These apparitions of a man was seen around the house, and then the sound of a woman rushing through.

我们手头有一份玛丽·里基茨亲笔写下的近乎日记的第一手记录，这份记录保存在大英图书馆。

And what we have is a first hand almost diary account from Mary Ricketts, which is lodged in the British Library.

我曾坐在那里，逐日阅读她记录的这些日常经历——她几乎独自一人，努力应对这些怪事，同时极度害怕自己的孩子最终会看到鬼魂。

And I've sat there reading this day by day, often day by day, account of trying to deal with what was going on, while it's pretty much on her own and being terrified that her children will eventually see the ghosts.

这与现代鬼故事恰恰相反：在现代故事里是孩子看到鬼魂，而大人看不见。

So it's the opposite of a modern ghost story, whereas the children who see the ghosts and the adults don't.

在这里，成年人试图保护孩子免受幽灵的侵扰。

Here the adult is trying to shield the children from the ghosts.

关于玛丽·里基茨，她是一位受过良好教育、智力出众的女性，深受许多神职人员的敬重，他们纷纷前来帮助她。

A bit about Mary Ricketts, she was extremely well educated woman with a powerful intellect who was very highly thought of by a lot of members of the clergy who kind of came to her aid.

最终，他们不得不离开这所房子，无法再住下去，但后来又回来了。

And eventually they had to leave the house, couldn't live in it, and they went back after that.

而且经历了种种可怕的遭遇。

And there were all these awful experiences.

还有正午时分的幽灵，白天出现的幽灵，以及门被猛烈撞击的声音。

And midday ghosts, ghosts in the middle of the day, and the door being banged.

当你阅读这些记录时，会发现她的笔迹逐渐变得潦草。

And I mean, you read about it and you see her handwriting deteriorate.

这真的非常引人注目。

It's really quite striking.

她最终逃到了温彻斯特的主教宫，在那里，一些神职朋友为她提供了庇护。

And she eventually fled to the Bishop's Palace in Winchester, where she was sort of given sanctuary by some of her clerical friends.

我想，这个故事最终就是通过这种方式传到了坎特伯雷大主教本森那里，他后来又讲给了亨利·詹姆斯，而在我看来，这正是《螺丝在拧紧》的源头故事。

And that's how I think the story got eventually relayed to Bishop Benson, the Archbishop of Canterbury, who then told it to Henry James, who turned it into, in my view, it's the source story for turn of the screw.

我最近刚刚发现了一件事，关于M.

And I just actually found out something recently that M.

R.

R.

詹姆斯在大学时期，确实曾在1880年代左右去拜访过本森主教，并与这位后来成为坎特伯雷大主教的本森一起度过了圣诞节。

James as an undergraduate actually went to stay with Bishop Benson in the sort of 1880s and spent Christmas with the same Bishop Benson, who was then Bishop before he became Archbishop at Canterbury.

我有个很美好的想法，也许詹姆斯正是从他那里听到了这个故事，而且他可能是第一个听到的人，但当时却拒绝了它。

And I have this sort of lovely idea that maybe MR James was told this story, and maybe he got first dibs on this story and turned it down.

这太惊人了。

It's amazing

这两位都是詹姆斯吗？

that that both of Who were James?

有两个人都叫詹姆斯。

There's two people called James.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

我忍不住觉得，他的鬼故事《失落的心》中可能隐藏着一些《螺丝在拧紧》的元素，但我真的很想解开这个谜团。

I can't help thinking that elements of his ghost story called Lost Hearts may have sort of some buried elements of turn of the screw, but I I really wanted to crack the mystery.

对我来说，那是个巨大的谜团。

For me, that was a big mystery.

主教本森讲的究竟是什么故事？

What what was this story that Bishop Benson told?

那么，到底发生了什么？

And so so what was going on?

因为英国内战期间的切里顿战役，基本上就是在辛顿阿门纳的领地上进行的。

Because there is the Battle of Cheryton in the English Civil War that is fought basically on the grounds of of Hinton Amnenna.

所以

So

嗯，这种幽灵出没的氛围有着令人惊叹的声音效果。

Well, there's this incredible sort of soundscape of this haunting.

这是一次非常、非常吵闹的闹鬼事件。

It's a very, very noisy haunting.

所以我认为，战斗的喧嚣声几乎传到了房屋的窗户和门口，仿佛在不断重放。

So I think there was noise really of the battle, which I think came up almost to the windows and the door of the house, and it was like it was being replayed really.

这并不能解释人们变得凶狠，但能解释这种现象。

That wouldn't explain people going mean, would explain it.

但通常，当你遇到闹鬼事件时，总会有人编出一个故事来解释这些灵体的存在或发生了什么。

But usually, when you have hauntings, somebody comes up with some story to explain why there are these presences or what's going on.

有什么故事吗？

Is there any story?

是的。

Yes.

关于这件事，有各种说法，比如宅邸里的一名成员和一位资深仆人之间有过一段婚外情，同样是《螺丝在拧紧》那种类型，他们很可能就是幽灵出现的源头。

There were various stories about that there'd been an affair between a member of the household and a senior servant, again, turn of the screw sort of thing, and that they were probably the apparition scene.

但我认为这可以被称为一种多重闹鬼现象，有很多不同的幽灵在做不同的事情。

But I think this is what you'd call a sort of a multiple haunting, that there are a lot of different ghosts doing different things.

因为这并不像典型的灵异事件，对吧？

Because it's unusual that there's it's not quite a poltergeist story, is it?

有很多敲击声，但东西并没有被扔来扔去。

There's a lot of banging, but there's not stuff being thrown.

我说得对吗？

Am I right?

而孩子们，正如你所说，通常在经典鬼故事中总是出现，我们通常认为的那种经典鬼故事里。

And the children who are often in as you say, always in the classical kind of well, what we think of is the kind of classic ghost story.

孩子们能看见幽灵，或者被附身，或者以某种方式卷入其中。

The children can see the ghost or they're possessed or they're somehow involved.

但这些孩子对

But the children are completely oblivious to

正在发生的事情完全无动于衷，对我来说，这真是一个有趣的转折。

that And idea of what's going I for me, that's such an interesting twist.

这完全违背了好莱坞告诉我们该如何讲述故事的方式。

It's completely opposite of how Hollywood tell us would would tell a story.

实际上要有趣得多。

It's actually much more interesting.

还有这位饱受困扰的女性这一概念。

And just this idea of this embattled woman.

我觉得这有点像一场房屋入侵事件。

And I think it's sort of like a house invasion story.

这就像一种暴力的房屋入侵版本。

It's like a version of violent house invasion.

我觉得这很像泰德沃斯事件，我想汤姆因为从小住在附近，对这件事非常了解。

And I think it's really a bit like the Tedworth drama, I suppose, which Tom knows all about having grown up near there.

是的。

Yes.

那是另一个闹鬼事件。

That's another poltergeist.

而幽灵现象让我很感兴趣。

And a poltergeist, I was intrigued.

我记得马丁·路德是第一个使用‘幽灵’这个词的人吗？

Do I remember this right that Martin Luther is the first person to use the word poltergeist?

据说他是第一个创造这个词的人，没错。

He is supposed to have made the compound words, yes, the first person.

所以他不仅引发了宗教改革，还发明了‘幽灵’这个词，这真是相当了不起的成就。

So not only did he cause the Reformation, but he came up with poltergeist too, so that's quite a roster of achievements.

德国和挪威的幽灵现象之间有一种奇怪的联系。在二战前，人们会说，当然，纳粹主义和法西斯主义之所以存在，是因为它们都源于喧闹而混乱的精神力量，而这些当然来自德国，因为德国就像是幽灵现象的中心。

And there is a strange connection between Germany and Poltergeist in Norway, and so you get before World War II, people saying, well, of course, Nazism, fascism is there because it's all about noisy, inchoate spiritual forces, and of course it would come from Germany because it's like poltergeist central.

幽灵现象在某种程度上似乎是最难解释的故事，但也正因如此，它们最引人入胜地映照出宗教思潮。

Poltergeists in a way seem the the the strangest stories to explain, but also the ones perhaps because of that that hold a mirror up most intriguingly to kind of religious currents.

你在17世纪的鬼故事中就能看到这一点，比如像特德打鼓者这样的古老故事。

And you see that in the seventeenth century ghost stories, old ghost stories like Ted with Drummer.

是的。

Yeah.

你在这一个故事里也能看到这一点。

And you see it in this one.

你还能在或许所有故事中最引人入胜的一个中看到这一点，因为众所周知，这个故事是伪造的——那就是科克街幽灵的故事。

And you also see it in perhaps perhaps the the most most fascinating of all the stories because it it basically we know that it's a fake, which is the story of the Cocklane Ghost

是的。

Yes.

这个故事的主角正是约翰逊博士。

Which features none other than doctor Johnson.

你能给我们讲讲这个故事吗？

So can you just tell us a bit about that?

因为这是一个很棒的故事。

Because that's a great story.

是的，在18世纪60年代，有一对夫妇无处安身，便住进了科克街的一户人家。

Yeah, so in the 1760s as well, a chap and his wife had nowhere to stay, and they stayed with this family in Cock Lane.

后来他们与科克街的这户人家闹翻了，妻子便去世了。

And then they fell out with the family in Cock Lane and the wife died.

突然间，有消息传出说这位妻子的鬼魂在房子里出没，敲击出对丈夫的控诉，指控丈夫谋杀了她。

And suddenly this news came around that the wife was haunting the house and tapping out a condemnation of her husband, that her husband had murdered her.

丈夫属于受过教育的绅士阶层，而他寄居的帕森斯一家则是与附近教堂墓地相关的普通劳动者。

Now the husband was from a sort of educated gentleman class and the chap whose house he was in, the Parsons family were just basically working class people associated with running the nearby church sepulchre.

他很快意识到可以借此收费，整个事件围绕着两个小女孩展开，她们躺在床上时，敲击声就会出现，人们还总结出了一套敲击次数的编码：多次敲击代表‘是’，一次代表‘否’。

He then realized that he could charge money and it was all centered around the two little girls and they'd lie in bed and these knocks would come and they worked out certain amounts of raps for yes and one for no.

事实上，最初的情况恰恰相反，比较特殊。

In fact, think it was the other way around unusually.

后来才变成一次敲击代表‘否’。

Later on it became one for no.

由于当时气氛异常热烈——因为最近出现了大量新创报纸，印刷业和报刊数量急剧扩张——这件事演变成一场大丑闻，人群蜂拥而至，希望能听到鬼魂的声音，甚至王室成员也乘着马车前来聆听鬼魂的敲击。

And people would come around and suddenly, because there was a rather feverish atmosphere going on, because there was a lot of recently launched newspapers, there was a huge expansion in newsprint and newspaper titles, it became a sort of big scandal and crowds would gather hoping to hear the ghost and then members of the royal family would turn up in their coach to hear the ghost.

这逐渐演变成一场丑闻，因为人们必须决定：这究竟是谋杀案，还是另有隐情？

And it became a sort of scandal because they had to work out, are we going to treat this as a murder story and what's going on?

于是它被展开调查，而约翰逊博士……

And so it was sort of investigated, and Doctor.

约翰逊是负责调查的团队成员之一。

Johnson was on one of the teams investigating it.

很快，整个事件就真相大白了，原来父亲是个酒鬼，这根本就是一场搞砸了的酒吧玩笑。

And pretty soon the whole thing fell apart, that the father was a drunk and it was basically a sort of pub joke that went wrong.

但每个人都认为他们知道这是一场彻头彻尾的阴谋论。

But everyone thought that they knew it was a complete conspiracy theory.

每个人都以为自己知道真相到底是什么。

Everyone thought they knew what was really going on.

当时有一种极其狂热的氛围。

There was a very sort of feverish feeling.

到处都是醉酒的现象。

There was a lot of drunkenness.

这其实是一个关于饮酒影响的鬼故事。

This is really a ghost story about the effect of drink.

这讲的是杜松子酒，对吧？

It's about gin, isn't it?